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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2009 23:03:30 GMT
I use weight lifting gloves for sword handling, and the good padding it has on the inside has the benefit of helping with overly small grips.
Ancalagon
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2009 13:58:02 GMT
I see it differently even though my image might be totally false and unhistoric. In a movie I saw a special way to handle the sword that resembles this. I try and try but just can't remember which movie it was, it might be Rauta-Aika ("Iron age", very loosely based on Kalevala) but I am really not sure. There was a conflict situation, where the combatants, propably just 2 of them, propably before a duel or just mocking each other, were quite a close each other, but still too far away to hit another with a sword. Exept that the other quy took the other (and me watching it) by suprise. He swung the sword so that his hand totally slipped out the grip, so that he just hold the pommel on his hand, and so his sword reached a bit further than the other could expect. I dont remember did he hit the other guy. It just looked so natural, so elegant and still so powerful that I couldnt refute it as a "special effect" invented by movie maker but it staid on my mind as an open possibility. It almost seemed to me, who was not familiar with swords then, that this is what pommel is for. At least the actor really did it, it was not "faked", so doing it is possible. Also it looks this man in Bayeux tapestry is doing the same thing. His hand is almost slipped out of the tang and its rather around the pommel, making the sword reach farther.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2009 14:06:29 GMT
Now I read your description again and realised that you already might have described what I was trying to say. This "slipping" of the sword seems to have two meanings in this conversation, but I didnt notice that.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2009 15:23:16 GMT
I see it differently even though my image might be totally false and unhistoric. In a movie I saw a special way to handle the sword that resembles this. I try and try but just can't remember which movie it was, it might be Rauta-Aika ("Iron age", very loosely based on Kalevala) but I am really not sure. There was a conflict situation, where the combatants, propably just 2 of them, propably before a duel or just mocking each other, were quite a close each other, but still too far away to hit another with a sword. Exept that the other quy took the other (and me watching it) by suprise. He swung the sword so that his hand totally slipped out the grip, so that he just hold the pommel on his hand, and so his sword reached a bit further than the other could expect. I dont remember did he hit the other guy. It just looked so natural, so elegant and still so powerful that I couldnt refute it as a "special effect" invented by movie maker but it staid on my mind as an open possibility. It almost seemed to me, who was not familiar with swords then, that this is what pommel is for. At least the actor really did it, it was not "faked", so doing it is possible. Also it looks this man in Bayeux tapestry is doing the same thing. His hand is almost slipped out of the tang and its rather around the pommel, making the sword reach farther. The same thing I'm doing in this video: It is very comfortable.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Dec 4, 2009 17:43:58 GMT
yup Rauta, that sounds like pretty much what I' talking about. I only really grab the pomel at one point when I'm talking about viking swords. most of the video I'm showing how to slip the pommel to the inside but I also briefly talk about this technique too. I just didn't have the right kind of pommel to do it fully. my big wheel pommel works of at it but a brazil nut or true lobed viking pommel works best.
I can't watch Luka's video but if he's doing it too then I am even more convinced it's right. Luka seems to be well studied.
thanks Luka for adding to the conversation.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2009 0:36:28 GMT
I can't watch Luka's video but if he's doing it too then I am even more convinced it's right. Luka seems to be well studied. I can watch it but it's so fast and the camera is so far away that I cant see what happens. Is it the centrifugal force that moves the hand from grip to pommel? At least centrifugal force is present there and pushing the sword to that direction. Am I right that you dont have to set the hand around the pommel before strike, but just hold the grip loosely enough and let centrifugal force push the pommel in hand?
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Post by sparky on Dec 5, 2009 1:14:04 GMT
Thanks for posting the video Tom. It seems like it will be very helpful to me. When I cut next time I'm going to try it out. OK maybe next time I go down to the garage!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2009 3:03:03 GMT
I can watch it but it's so fast and the camera is so far away that I cant see what happens. Is it the centrifugal force that moves the hand from grip to pommel? At least centrifugal force is present there and pushing the sword to that direction. Am I right that you dont have to set the hand around the pommel before strike, but just hold the grip loosely enough and let centrifugal force push the pommel in hand? Sorry to pull a bit of a physics nerd moment--but there's no such thing as centrifugal force. There's only ever a lack of centripetal force. The sword isn't being pushed away from you, you set it on a certain course and your hand is changing direction, pulling away from the sword, so to speak. Pet peeve. Carry on.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2009 10:55:34 GMT
where does centrifugal force come from then?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2009 11:01:43 GMT
I might not have paid much attention in physics last fall, but I'm pretty sure we did a thing on calculating centrifugal force...
M.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2009 11:21:58 GMT
What is centrifugal force then? One limits the other iirc but is mass related, no?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2009 13:35:05 GMT
I can't watch Luka's video but if he's doing it too then I am even more convinced it's right. Luka seems to be well studied. I can watch it but it's so fast and the camera is so far away that I cant see what happens. Is it the centrifugal force that moves the hand from grip to pommel? At least centrifugal force is present there and pushing the sword to that direction. Am I right that you dont have to set the hand around the pommel before strike, but just hold the grip loosely enough and let centrifugal force push the pommel in hand? Sorry, I don't have a better video. What I do is that I grip the grip close to the pommel from the beginning. My pinky is partly on the side of the pommel all the time. I think slipping would be bad for the edge alignment. And on the original viking swords you couldn't slip much up and down because the grip would be shorter than on most modern swords and you as a viking wouldn't have much smaller hand than today's people. You would definitely have a hand bigger than mine.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2009 20:15:08 GMT
Tape on a French. I guess one might call it Gussied up. Attachments:
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Post by Dan Davis on Dec 6, 2009 3:20:46 GMT
...Sorry to the JSA guys, but I think something got lost in the translation as sword arts traveled East. Just my opinion and thoughts.
I think it might be just about completely related to the loss or abandonment of the pommel as a primary element of the sword. Since most, if not all, traditional Japanese swords don't have a prominent pommel for use in an offensive and grip enhancing capacity, it makes sense to me that their sword traditions would have moved away from techniques that rely on the pommel. That might even be the primary point of divergence that led to all sorts of other differences over time.
Or I could just be all confused and totally off-base. Actually, Mike, the root cause of the "extinction" of the counterweighted pommel in Japan was nothing more than a lack of resources: steel was very precious and was generally not wasted on much other than blades. However, a "substitute" for the pommel was developed and that is the real, true origin of the "wasp-waisted" tsuka. The narrowing of the tsuka in the middle and subsequent spreading toward the kashira (pommel cap) was specifically designed so that the person using the sword could use loose-grip techniques, and the generally egg-shaped cross-section of the tsuka was a way to solve the blade alignment issues. In fact, the tendency of the blade to rotate was a major problem and a large part of Japanese Sword Arts concentrates specifically on the issues of proper hasuji (edge alignment) when cutting. As an Aside: Centrifugal force is actually the rotational force of a moving object. What is forcing the rotating object to eject in a straight line is right-angular momentum.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Dec 6, 2009 3:23:48 GMT
As an Aside: Centrifugal force is actually the rotational force of a moving object. What is forcing the rotating object to eject in a straight line is right-angular momentum. Like the wind up and toss in a hammer throw - that right angular momentum is obvious.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2009 16:53:59 GMT
I can watch it but it's so fast and the camera is so far away that I cant see what happens. Is it the centrifugal force that moves the hand from grip to pommel? At least centrifugal force is present there and pushing the sword to that direction. Am I right that you dont have to set the hand around the pommel before strike, but just hold the grip loosely enough and let centrifugal force push the pommel in hand? Sorry to pull a bit of a physics nerd moment--but there's no such thing as centrifugal force. There's only ever a lack of centripetal force. The sword isn't being pushed away from you, you set it on a certain course and your hand is changing direction, pulling away from the sword, so to speak. Pet peeve. Carry on. Guess they should rename it a 'CentriPete' then? Somehow, that doesn't seem right.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2009 18:02:15 GMT
Thanks again Tom. I keep finding your tutorials where I am looking at things that interest me, and they are very insightful. I an not concerned to much with historical accuracy or terms as much as accuracy. I am a newbie. What I like is to cut bottle and tatami into pieces. I do not want to re-enact although i like to watch re-enactments. This lesson on grip is my practice for this week. Thanks a bunch.
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