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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Oct 28, 2009 1:37:15 GMT
considering all the discussion that has been going on here regarding how to grip a single handed sword, particularly Jon's trouble with the pommel of his H/T Norman digging into his wrist I decided to make a quick video that shows how I grip a sword and how I would avoid being hurt by those crazy brazil nut and viking pommels.
please dicuss . . .
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2009 4:59:39 GMT
I was actually out cutting today and was thinking about gripping methods. What you discribe is quite similar to what I've found to work as well. I tend to grip primarily with my middle finger though instead of both, and just let the other fingers stay looser. It makes it a very natural motion to let the pommel slide by one's wrist.
I don't think the distinction you made between this and the "handshake" grip is accurate. I believe all of this would still fall under the "handshake" grip. It is after all, a purely modern term which I believe is without a concrete definition.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Oct 28, 2009 5:15:12 GMT
hey Nathan, you may be right about that, I was just repeating what I'd heard before. I've seen talk of "slip grip" or "slip Pommel" so I wanted to use terminology I thought would make sense to people, I really never called it anything I just did it. just all the descriptions I saw didn't quite hit it right I thought and then Jonathan started having trouble with his Norman's pommel hitting him and I thought I'd try to explain how I do it.
I always kinda saw the handshake grip as being firm in the pinky and not allowing for the slip so I figured it was something different.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2009 6:17:04 GMT
You're quite possibly right. I'd just never heard someone use the term "slip grip". I always assumed that a proper grip was a flexible one, one that can adapt as the need arises. So you have your hammer grip, your handshake grip, and everything in between, probably more too. So all of these "grips" would really just be part of a moving hold on the sword. This means your hand is probably going to use more than one griping style in one cut. So to carry that further, one could say that the "slip pommel" is a technique that transitions you from one grip to another, through a cut. Or we could always just say that you swing the darn thing like *this* so it does *that*! ;D I think the real problem here is that, all of the terminology we use is modern. We're trying to analyze something and make up terms for it, when originally it would have been assumed as common sense. This was basic griping technique. Every soldier and his uncle would have known how to do this. There probably weren't terms, and if there were they would have meant different things to different people. We, in our modern age are used to standardization. So we want to apply universal terms to something that has never had that before. It's like using the word "broadsword"! Sure it means something, but what and to whom?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2009 13:52:29 GMT
Thanks for the video, it condenses all the talk very clearly and is very helpful. My distaste for single hand swords is no longer justified.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2009 17:02:36 GMT
Very interesting. That actually is very similar to the Chinese Jian grip. Now, in that one you grip primarily with thumb and middle finger touching, support with the ring finger, and the little finger rests loosely on the top of the pommel. In both cases the grip is quite a bit different from what I understand is used in JSA, which you touched upon. I had emailed Jon with instructions on the Chinese grip to see if it would help him with edge alignment, but it didn't even occur to me to consider the difference that the brazil nut pommel would make.
(Modifed for typo's)
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Post by ShooterMike on Oct 28, 2009 18:25:09 GMT
Me being the crazy addict to the Bayeux Tapestry, I had to go find a depiction in the tapestry to illustrate this "slipped or handshake grip" in historic action. Here is a snippet of the tapestry depicting a scene near the end, after the Saxon shield wall broke and the Normans turned back on the individual Saxons in open field. Note the Norman striking down from horseback in the center of the picture, catching the Saxon on the side of the head, just above his shield. He's getting maximum impact force by allowing his sword hilt to "slip" so that he's anchoring it in the strike by palming the wide pommel, thus allowing more power and reach in the strike. That is exactly how all my Viking and Brazilnut pommel swords "like to be used."
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2009 19:13:17 GMT
That definitely adds to the force of a downward blow. I've never had a problem with gripping a sword- I just go with what feels natural.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2009 19:47:49 GMT
Ebon, been read some Jaqueline Carey of late?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2009 19:56:53 GMT
Liam, you caught me!!!! How're you acquainted with her?
Currently defending Lucca from the Duke of Valpetra...at least, I was at the time I changed my location. Now I'm back in Terre D'Ange, riding the countryside with Hugues and Ti-Philippe! lol
At one point, when I was seriously thinking of joining the SCA, I'd asked for and gotten permission to use Montreve as my surname from Ms. Carey herself.
The really good authors have the ability to take me wherever it is they've written about...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2009 20:42:36 GMT
Very useful tutorial. I have run into this problem with viking swords; will attempt to put this information to good use.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2009 21:08:29 GMT
May Illuvatar bless you, Mr. Tom! I never thought about gripping the sword with my middle fingers, I was using my index fingure primarily, and that didn't work out very well at all. I will have to try your technique when I have an opportunity.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2009 23:27:51 GMT
Liam, you caught me!!!! How're you acquainted with her? Currently defending Lucca from the Duke of Valpetra...at least, I was at the time I changed my location. Now I'm back in Terre D'Ange, riding the countryside with Hugues and Ti-Philippe! lol At one point, when I was seriously thinking of joining the SCA, I'd asked for and gotten permission to use Montreve as my surname from Ms. Carey herself. The really good authors have the ability to take me wherever it is they've written about... The wife got me hooked. I had just picked up a new video game (this was back in '01 before I started putting gaming second and other things in my life first) so my girlfriend, at the time, insisted on buying her a new book. She loved the cover illustration on the hardback and then started reading. The writing was such that after two paragraphs she was hooked. On a boring night off from my third shift job, I picked up Kushiel's Dart after she had finished with it. We're both addicts to her work now.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Oct 28, 2009 23:36:51 GMT
Mike, that's a great tapestry there, it really shows what the guy is doing prety well. I've always wondered if those old tapestries and paintings really showed things properly or if the artist just drew stuff funny. if you look at some of what I do around 5:00-5:03 that's pretty close to what I'm doing, I just don't have the right kind of pommel on there.
Liam, that's interesting about the Jian grip. not having studied any Chinese sword art I've never heard that before. JSA is so popular it seems that almost everyone wants to cross it over into all aspects of swords and swordsmanship like nothing else could possibly be right. I'm not baggin on JSA just noting how refreshing it is to get some input from non-JSA sources that carry equal legitimacy and yet are different.
Thank you Jon, I hope this helps you. go slow at first and get a good feel for it but it's pretty natural so I think you'll get it fast.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2009 23:45:24 GMT
Mike, that's a great tapestry there, it really shows what the guy is doing prety well. I've always wondered if those old tapestries and paintings really showed things properly or if the artist just drew stuff funny. if you look at some of what I do around 5:00-5:03 that's pretty close to what I'm doing, I just don't have the right kind of pommel on there. Liam, that's interesting about the Jian grip. not having studied any Chinese sword art I've never heard that before. JSA is so popular it seems that almost everyone wants to cross it over into all aspects of swords and swordsmanship like nothing else could possibly be right. I'm not baggin on JSA just noting how refreshing it is to get some input from non-JSA sources that carry equal legitimacy and yet are different. Thank you Jon, I hope this helps you. go slow at first and get a good feel for it but it's pretty natural so I think you'll get it fast. Careful on calling taijiquan a legitimate martial art, tends to get the Japanese folks in an uproar There's an old thread in Chinese Swords were I posted a good explanation link /index.cgi?board=chineseswords&action=display&thread=11937&page=1#194963 it interesting to see the commonalities between different sword arts. I have been noticing the Euro sword and Chinese Sword have many similar thoughts. It's interesting.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Oct 29, 2009 0:48:14 GMT
HA! all Asian martial arts originated in China how do JSA upstarts think they can get away with that brand of non-sense? I agree that one must always be on guard against Hollywood-training techniques but that site you linked to in that thread looks legit to me.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2009 11:22:33 GMT
Actually, I'll vouch for that site being very legitimate. Linda Heenan who runs the site is a Student of Scott Rodell and the Yang Michuan Taiji tradition which is has a bit in common with the Cheng Man Ch'ing (Zheng Manquing) tradition that I study. Mr. Rodell is also one of the foremost advocates in trying to recreate "real" Chinese sword arts, that have pretty much been lost. Ms. Heenan was also the only female member of the Traditional Chinese Sword League to fight in their first ever tournament. As I do have a strong interest in Euro sword (Yes, I still need to pick up Christian Tobler's book, I'm going off Adam Sharp's e-book and a copy of Tallhoffer I downloaded from ARMA) I've been finding a lot of commonalities. Powering longsword strokes through movement determined by the feet, legs, and waist seems to be very central to Euro sword, and matches the Chinese concept of "The motion should be rooted in the feet, released through the legs, controlled by the waist, and manifested through the fingers [sword]" (Cheng Man-Ch'ing. "Cheng Tzu's Thirteen Treatises on T'ai Chi Ch'uan.") and a concept I've heard from several instructors - "The waist moves the sword, the sword moves the body." Also, Chinese Arts, particularly the Taiji I study stress "attacking while defending" which if my understanding is correct is one of the main principles behind the Meisterhau (spell?). Attack and defense is combined into a single movement. I find these commonalities between the Chinese sword traditions (once you clear away all the modern Wushu BS) and the European ones very interesting. Another very specific example is the Taiji posture "Holding the Moon," this occurs in the Bejing 32 simplified sword form and the 50+ movement "classical" sword form of the Yang based Taiji traditions. Now, in the posture one stands with the sword held almost beside the body with both hands, pommel pointed towards the waist and held at app a 45 degree angle point threatening the opponents throat and face. This is almost completely identical to some of the illustrations I've seen for the "Pfug" (spell?) guard position in the Euro Traditions. How JSA ended up being so different from either of these traditions, I have no idea. Not to mention, the arch typically Asian curved blades - the Chinese Dao, and later the Japanese weapons which are mentioned in literature as early as the 7th century are always reported (when not being credited to mythical figures) are always reported to have come from the west. So there is the possibility of at least Middle Eastern, if not European influence from a very early point in history on the Asian sword arts. Like I said, interesting things to think about. Admittedly, I tend to stay away from this sub forum since I do not yet practice Euro sword (Sonny, I will get that practical arming sword and practical longsword yet!!!!! ) but every time I end up linking over here I notice thing that Euro and Chinese sword traditions have in common. In this particular case, the "slip pommel" and Jian grips. Sorry to the JSA guys, but I think something got lost in the translation as sword arts traveled East. Just my opinion and thoughts.
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Post by ShooterMike on Oct 29, 2009 17:12:18 GMT
...Sorry to the JSA guys, but I think something got lost in the translation as sword arts traveled East. Just my opinion and thoughts. I think it might be just about completely related to the loss or abandonment of the pommel as a primary element of the sword. Since most, if not all, traditional Japanese swords don't have a prominent pommel for use in an offensive and grip enhancing capacity, it makes sense to me that their sword traditions would have moved away from techniques that rely on the pommel. That might even be the primary point of divergence that led to all sorts of other differences over time. Or I could just be all confused and totally off-base.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2009 19:54:36 GMT
That's a definite thought. However, the Chinese Dao in many forms doesn't have that prominent of a pommel either, but it still has a pommel. So yes, loss of the pommel could be the start point of the divergence. Then again this is all conjecture so all of us could be off in out thinking. Or I just have waaaaayyyyyyy to much time to think these days
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2009 20:21:20 GMT
Mike, that's a great tapestry there, it really shows what the guy is doing prety well. I've always wondered if those old tapestries and paintings really showed things properly or if the artist just drew stuff funny. if you look at some of what I do around 5:00-5:03 that's pretty close to what I'm doing, I just don't have the right kind of pommel on there. Liam, that's interesting about the Jian grip. not having studied any Chinese sword art I've never heard that before. JSA is so popular it seems that almost everyone wants to cross it over into all aspects of swords and swordsmanship like nothing else could possibly be right. I'm not baggin on JSA just noting how refreshing it is to get some input from non-JSA sources that carry equal legitimacy and yet are different. Thank you Jon, I hope this helps you. go slow at first and get a good feel for it but it's pretty natural so I think you'll get it fast. There's a book titled '1066' that sorta breaks down the tapestry into digestible bits; I found mine on eBay if you're interested in that sort of thing.
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