Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2009 21:01:14 GMT
On a few type of swords it might look better that a backsword blade, but you can really only cut effectively with one side of the sword. Is there any particular reason why they were used?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2009 21:28:37 GMT
There are actually several techniques, like wrap cuts, where you use the "back" edge of the sword to attack the opponent that would not be possible with a backsword. Also, your edge dulls half as fast if you're using two edges for the same amount of cutting.
More options, and symmetry is nice, I suppose.
|
|
|
Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Oct 19, 2009 22:39:13 GMT
there are TONS of attacks that use the back edge with both single handed and two handed swords. here are some examples:
watch the very first cut on this video and then I'm sure there's more mixed in.
I mix back edge cuts in randomly in my cutting sessions but I don't have any with just back edge cuts. basically having a back edge vastly increases the angles at which you can strike at your opponent. it also allows you to reach around their shields and guards etc. those seconds edges aren't just there for show they are functional.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2009 3:20:07 GMT
What he said. 1/2 of the cuts Fiore shows are with the false edge.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2009 3:44:19 GMT
False edge in terms of fiore doesn't mean unsharpened or "looks like it is sharpened but isn't" it is how fiore distinguishes between true edge attacks and attacks with the back edge. The most formidable aspect of a two edged sword is that you can reverse an attack without coming back to guard or losing a precious second in turning it over. It is the attack you don't anticipate that kills you and this is especially true of longsword fighting.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2009 9:14:29 GMT
You use both sides of the sword:
In the longsword system I teach (which is Fiore), you may strike down from poste di donna (The Lady's Guard) with a findante (downward) then immediately return with a sotani (upward) strike. This is just one example of where this would be used. As stated above, there are many strikes with the falso (false or back edge) of the sword. To the best of my knowledge both I:33 and the Lichtenhauer systems use the opposing edge as well.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2009 10:23:29 GMT
You use both sides of the sword: In the longsword system I teach (which is Fiore), you may strike down from poste di donna (The Lady's Guard) with a findante (downward) then immediately return with a sotani (upward) strike. This is just one example of where this would be used. As stated above, there are many strikes with the falso (false or back edge) of the sword. To the best of my knowledge both I:33 and the Lichtenhauer systems use the opposing edge as well. Yup, the German school definately includes the 'short edge' in the system.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2009 11:55:40 GMT
The Zwerch takes what comes from the roof.
M.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2009 13:22:29 GMT
To answer the OP's question- it cuts. With both edges. I wonder what makes you think you can only cut with one edge?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2009 15:14:03 GMT
Everything's already said. The advantage of having two edges is obvious. That's why I always wonder why the katana has only one edge... I mean the samurai weren't stupid they must have known that two edges leave you with more angles of attacks than one edge.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2009 15:26:21 GMT
Chenessfan, you have to admit though...a true shinken is an unbelievable cutter in the hands of a swordsman. I would venture to say that in soft to medium targets, it has no peer...no, what am I talking about? I'm feeding into that whole mystique but I did see a comparison test that one of the SFI'ers did using a longbow, a Euro sword (an Albion and an Atrim I believe) and an Emura katana.
He laid or wrapped the chainmail (which was riveted, not butted) over a 10 or 20 layer jack and the katana ripped through it all in one stroke. I was most impressed.
I still favor Euros though...they suit me much more than a katana. It is also the technique, as well as the sword that makes the argument.
|
|
|
Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Oct 20, 2009 15:31:33 GMT
no they weren't dumb, they used their swords the way they were designed. they were designed to maximize the slicing cut and considering the generally poor quality of tamahagane they probably found that double edged swords were too delicate. so they made what worked best with their matierials and fought in the way that worked best with what they made. and they became some of the most legendary swordsmen the world knows
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2009 15:42:00 GMT
That's a very good point about that steel quality... About cutting power... well I think a katana with a short false edge would still cut as well as a normal katana with the advantage of having more angles of attacks. I'm sure with experience and trial and error it would be possible to design and make such a sword. I mean NOT the Coldsteel double edged katana by the way.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2009 15:51:44 GMT
Chenessfan, you have to admit though...a true shinken is an unbelievable cutter in the hands of a swordsman. I would venture to say that in soft to medium targets, it has no peer...no, what am I talking about? I'm feeding into that whole mystique but I did see a comparison test that one of the SFI'ers did using a longbow, a Euro sword (an Albion and an Atrim I believe) and an Emura katana. He laid or wrapped the chainmail (which was riveted, not butted) over a 10 or 20 layer jack and the katana ripped through it all in one stroke. I was most impressed. I still favor Euros though...they suit me much more than a katana. It is also the technique, as well as the sword that makes the argument. Have a link? I read an article on ?MyArmoury? where one guy used various longswords (Albion Talhoffer, Earl, Brescia Spadona, Regent and an Atrim Longsword) and a shinken to cut through 10, 20 and 30 layer jacks. The katana did best but the Brescia Spadona came close... funnily, when he tested too wide cutting swords (Albions, too) they absolutely failed to cut even the first layer. The reason for that was the flexibility of these wide and thin blades. The much stiffer Brescia Spadona and the other XVIII did a much better job against the jack. The katana was still the best though. Cutting through mail? That's almost impossible, that guy I'm talking about tried that too and didn't even succed with an Arms & Armor war axe if I recall correctly. I know for sure that all his swords didn't do more than scratch the mail when trying to cut.
|
|
Marc Ridgeway
Member
Retired Global Moderator
"The best cost less when you buy it the first time." - Papabear
Posts: 3,122
|
Post by Marc Ridgeway on Oct 20, 2009 15:52:17 GMT
That's a very good point about that steel quality... About cutting power... well I think a katana with a short false edge would still cut as well as a normal katana with the advantage of having more angles of attacks. I'm sure with experience and trial and error it would be possible to design and make such a sword. I mean NOT the Coldsteel double edged katana by the way. What you are describing or the closest comparison is Kissaki Moroha Zukuri which is like the cold steel katana... Heres another version... and yes it does cut well....
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2009 15:58:18 GMT
There ya go!! I didn't know there's a real katana with a back edge... I though Coldsteel was just beeing stupid. Thanks a lot, Marc! That's your sword, right? Got a cutting vid or something like that?
|
|
|
Post by randomnobody on Oct 20, 2009 16:02:11 GMT
Geez, it took long ebough for someone to bring up moroha. Topic's already way off otherwise but there it is. Double edge = double attack, it's quite simple. Ultimately, though, as weapons progressed, they lost an edge and generally took on a curve (many later pattern military sabers, though a fair number were straight and some double-edge); not because the design was better, but because it suited the current methods and environments better. At any rate, sword design has always had a purpose, whatever it may have been.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2009 16:31:50 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2009 17:40:10 GMT
That's what I meant. Guess it wasn't MyArmoury then..
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2009 23:02:19 GMT
There is the same test on myarmoury too.
|
|