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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2009 0:59:55 GMT
Good Evening to All! I have to tell you that I am really feeling down  After all the hours spent trying to decide (and justify) what sword to get... the endless analysis of forum posts....reviews...opinions...you all know the drill. Then finally biting the bullet, committing and placing the order. Waiting for that new swords arrival...UPS "finally" gets there...you open the box....and something just doesn't seem right. So getting down to brass tacks, I received a VA Bristol this afternoon and I feel that the guard-to-sword gap is excessive and that I should possibly return the sword to KOA. Please see the photos below and express your opinions. I know that its not an Albion, but every picture that I've seen of the Signature line (and this sword specifically) makes me feel that it just isn't right. I must say though that apart from this issue, the sword is heaven-in-hand....even with my limited "sword" experience, it is quite simply devine!     |
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Post by Eaglehawk on Sept 19, 2009 1:20:03 GMT
Hmmm, now that you mention it, mine is worse than yours. I never really noticed it. Let's see what shadowhowler has to say, he has one also. I might shoot a pm to Sonny and see what he thinks.
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SlayerofDarkness
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Post by SlayerofDarkness on Sept 19, 2009 1:22:57 GMT
I'm not sure exactly *HOW* far out that is (can you get us a measurement in mm's?  ), but it looks pretty normal for production swords to me. Mass-produced guards are NOT going to fit perfectly. Does it rattle, or do anything bad other than look 'off' to you? If it's really bugging you, I'd advise contacting Sonny at VA about it. From what I've heard, Sonny prefers that customers that have had an issue with a Valiant blade contact him rather than the vendor, since the vendor would just turn around and call/email him.  ;D I don't know for sure, but that shouldn't be a big problem IMO. Then again, I don't have the sword in-hand to see how far off it is for myself, so take what I say with a grain of salt.  Still, unless the space in between the guard and the flat of the blade eceeds 3mm on either side, that should be normal. A DSA or Windlass might have a far worse fit than that. -Slayer |
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Post by Eaglehawk on Sept 19, 2009 1:31:20 GMT
My gap is .4mm on one side and flush on the other.
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Post by Eaglehawk on Sept 19, 2009 1:34:41 GMT
My gap is .4mm on one side and flush on the other. Oops, I meant 4mm on one side. |
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SlayerofDarkness
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Post by SlayerofDarkness on Sept 19, 2009 1:37:37 GMT
You mean 4mm? .4mm is VERY small. DEFINTELY smaller than the gap shown in the pictures above...Lol, you posted while I was typing. My bad! ;D If Since it's 4mm and flush, than you could probably play around with the guard a bit to evenly distribut the 4mm so that the sword has a 2mm gap on each side. That would look much better than it being lopsided, lol. Just a thought, but if you want to do a bit of work to fix it up it would definitely be possible. -Slayer |
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Post by Eaglehawk on Sept 19, 2009 1:43:03 GMT
I have pm'd Sonny on the VA board to see what he thinks.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2009 2:53:07 GMT
;D ...gee you guys are awesome! Such quick responses! ...ok...can"t get caliper jaws in there....I'll use the old playing-cards-feeler gage trick....I get 2.83mm and 2.86mm. This does not include the depth of the fuller, by sticking stacked cards under the guard, I'm measuring the hypothetical flat to the guard where the fuller is located. (if that makes sense)  I've seen Sonny's incredible customer support in other posts, I wonder if I could just replace the guard rather than sending the whole sword back? I would even consider custom fitting a new guard myself. Kevin |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2009 3:09:19 GMT
Send the whole thing back if your not happy. Don't try and fix it or you will get stuck with it.
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SlayerofDarkness
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Post by SlayerofDarkness on Sept 19, 2009 3:16:49 GMT
Well, I'm afraid to say that if you're displeased with a 2.8mm gap, any other guard or sword you get will be the same or worse. A gap that small is really quite GOOD for a sub $500, hand-made, mass produced sword. :DHeck, both Windlass' I've owned had AT LEAST a 3mm gap on each side, and every other sword I've had a chance to inspect has had that or worse.  VA is doing a pretty good job to keep the margin of error that low. Of course, if it REALLY bugs you, Sonny may be willing to sort through his available guards to find one that matches perfectly. Please feel free to correct me if anything I've said is off, but that is my opinion. -Slayer |
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Post by kidcasanova on Sept 19, 2009 3:22:17 GMT
Yeah, I seriously would not bother sending it back for such a small gap. Only reason it looks bad is because your pictures are so close-up.
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Post by shadowhowler on Sept 19, 2009 4:17:24 GMT
Mine looks a bit tighter then yours... but it is also a bit lop-sided, in that it is tighter on one side of the blade (in this I mean one side of the fuller, left to right, not flip the blade over and one side) then the other.
I'd do a picture, but my camera does not have a micro feature as good as yours, so it would be blury and useless.
I gotta agree with Slayer here... if it does not rattle around I'd say its fine. If your looking for perfection in a production sword, even ones as nice as the Signature line, then your expectations are, in my opinion, a bit too lofty.
As long as everything fits together without rattling, I would be fine with it. I actually think I would have MORE of a prolem with Eaglehawks guard, as all the space is on one side and the other flush, that would bug me as non symetrical.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2009 5:52:33 GMT
Did you try disassembling the sword and turning the guard around to see if it distributes a little better the other way ? And yeah cause the guards are done en masse and other large production inevitabilities then unless it rattles or is loose or something that stuffs up its functionality its probably gonna be a tricky fix ........... And I hate to say I already was aware of this issue just looking at other bristols in pictures, even KoA's pics showed this off well ........... but hey talk to sonny he might just get you to send the sword in and replace the guard, his call all the way though, to me though I dont see much wrong with it .......... maybe if the guard and pommel got a good polish it might work you might be able to dissassemble it and post those in |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2009 13:26:51 GMT
Thank you all for the suggestions and advise. Your support is most appreciated!
In answer to several queries, I have not tried to disassemble the sword (no Allen wrench came with it, although I'm sure that I have one)
as I wanted to get opinions first. Flipping the guard would make no difference as the gap is pretty much the same on both sides (top and bottom).
Although the 2.8mm doesn't seem like a big gap, remember that that measurement does not include the depth of the fuller!
When you add in the depth of the fuller the gap then jumps to ~3.7mm (fuller bottom to guard)....on both sides of the blade.
I suppose that my expectations are a bit high,
I tend to be very critical in my examination of everything I make or purchase.
I"m always trying to make things "better"...you know, "silk purse out of a sow's ear" mentality. I was hoping that by spending a bit more for the Signature line,
that the guard-to-blade fitment would be tighter and not be an issue (at least to my eyes).
I think that I'll contact "Sonny" from VA, and get his feelings. Having worked in the QA (quality assurance) department for a Japanese semiconductor company
gave me an intimate understanding of tolerances. That sometimes, something can look wrong, but still be "right" (in tolerance).
What's the best way to get Sonny involved?
Kevin
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Post by Eaglehawk on Sept 19, 2009 14:45:58 GMT
This was Sonny's response: All the guards are cast the same. I've never had anyone mention this at all so I am not sure what to think. I'll point Christian and Gus to the thread and see what they think before I chime in. The Bristol is pressure fit with the pressure applied to the top of the blade not the face inside the guard. If it doesn't move or rattle then I see nothing wrong with it. But as I said, I'll get the scoop from the designers first.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2009 17:32:18 GMT
Yeah, and if push comes to shove, you can have CF make you a perfectly fitting guard.
M.
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Post by YlliwCir on Sept 19, 2009 18:07:59 GMT
I'm a bit obsessive myself so I understand the concern. For a bit of perspective let me offer some photos of a genuine Atrim,   I don't have a device for measuring so I don't have the size of the gap shown here. My own opinon is that some gap will be acceptable and common. There are of course exceptions depending on brand and type. |
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Post by Christian Fletcher on Sept 19, 2009 19:00:42 GMT
This thread helps to illustrate the expectations you can realistically have at the various price points for swords. A production sword like the Bristol, which utilizes a common guard casting to fit hand forged blades which vary slightly in their dimensions, can never achieve the level of attention to detail you get with a custom sword or a higher priced production sword. Having a skilled craftsman hand craft and fit each component or utilizing very precise and costly production methods will naturally increase the price of the sword. It's not uncommon for me to charge as much for a custom made guard as for an entire Bristol package, but it does take me a considerable amount of time produce and fit such a guard.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2009 19:04:20 GMT
Thanks for your sympathetic input RicWilly! Such beautiful grinds on that bladeof yours! I was comparing my and your images and noticed how crisp the the fuller grind lines were! May I ask specifically which Atrim sword that is? So apparently Sonny is asking the designers for input. Per his (relayed) comment, the guards are all cast the same, but its also obvious to me that some amount of finish grinding is involved before mounting it to the blade. I think somebody got a little too aggressive with the finish work on my guard. At least the gaps are the same on both sides. Again, I do have to say that it really is a beautiful piece! Kevin |
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Post by YlliwCir on Sept 19, 2009 19:10:40 GMT
Kevin, this is a 1315+. Which is to say it's a 1315 model with an added inch or so. Very nice cutter. Here's a video. |
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), but it looks pretty normal for production swords to me. Mass-produced guards are NOT going to fit perfectly.
;D
