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Post by Brian of DBK on Sept 18, 2009 2:46:56 GMT
I started out like everyone else here, collecting entry level sharpies. I've since sold off every sub $300 sword I owned (almost 20) and now my collection is a bit more distinguished & refined. Sword collecting is a passion for most. It took a while to realize the value, but I would take one $900 sword for every three sub $300 sword's. Save your money, it's worth it. Below, the Albion Knight. Price, $800. In comparison, it's a steal at that price.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2009 2:51:09 GMT
I think a lot of the worth has to do with the sword it's self. As a base, consider a sword for $300. It it worth $300? That question really can't be answered because you know nothing else about the sword. This whole line of is this worth X times more then that is pure conjecture without specifics.
If you go back to the wine analogy the answer lies strictly with the consumer. Same with a car. You can't put a yardstick on any of these items any more than swords. The answer must be personal.
Speaking in generalities, (which I love to do the the benefit of hearing Random's toes curl tightly), I believe that all things have a sliding scale on value vs. price. The reason for that is that only a few can afford the top tier and do so. I am happy to say that every sword I have bought was worth it, within reason, but I am speaking from a narrow band of price range - $150-$550. Not a single one would not follow a price to value comparison to me.
Would I hesitate to spend more? No I would not, assuming I could afford to do so. To have a particular object, you must pay the initiation fee. Would the person sitting next to me in the office do so? Hell know, they think I'm crazy for spending $150!
A fool and his money are soon parted.
If you have to ask "how much", you can't afford it anyway.
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Post by shadowhowler on Sept 18, 2009 3:17:38 GMT
Below, the Albion Knight. Price, $800. In comparison, it's a steal at that price. It sure WOULD be, if it came with that scabbard and belt! I would buy it in a nano-second, and take the beating from my wife with pride, and without regret in that case. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2009 3:19:49 GMT
I think a lot of the worth has to do with the sword it's self. As a base, consider a sword for $300. It it worth $300? That question really can't be answered because you know nothing else about the sword. This whole line of is this worth X times more then that is pure conjecture without specifics. If you go back to the wine analogy the answer lies strictly with the consumer. Same with a car. You can't put a yardstick on any of these items any more than swords. The answer must be personal. Speaking in generalities, (which I love to do the the benefit of hearing Random's toes curl tightly), I believe that all things have a sliding scale on value vs. price. The reason for that is that only a few can afford the top tier and do so. I am happy to say that every sword I have bought was worth it, within reason, but I am speaking from a narrow band of price range - $150-$550. Not a single one would not follow a price to value comparison to me. Would I hesitate to spend more? No I would not, assuming I could afford to do so. To have a particular object, you must pay the initiation fee. Would the person sitting next to me in the office do so? Hell know, they think I'm crazy for spending $150! A fool and his money are soon parted. If you have to ask "how much", you can't afford it anyway. That's a good answer, but not really an answer to the question I asked. The question is not whether a $600 sword is worth twice as much as a $300 sword, as "worth" is purely subjective. The question is if it is $300 better. Well, I would think that it should be better. Better fit, better finish, better tempering, better quality of components, etc., but $300 better? The question is at what point does the increase in price stop equalling "better quality" and become more subjective based on the craftsman's artistic skill and the perceived value of his product? To go back to my original wine analogy: There are wines priced at over $100 per bottle. Obviously,there are plenty of peple who find those wines to be worth the price. The worth may be in the status symbol of serving a hundred dollar bottle at a party or simply because they read about it in Wine Connoisseur, or maybe their palate is sophiticated enough that they can actually get that much more enjoyment ot of it. (although I doubt the latter) Now that is "WORTH." It's purely subjective. There are a number of esoteric factors that make that $100 bottle a "BETTER" wine than a $2 wine in a plastic bottle - but how MUCH better is the question as related to swords? I've got a couple of good answers concerting quality & workmanship, but nobody has yet pointed at a dollar value and said "Beyond here lies Subjective Opinion."
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2009 4:04:42 GMT
I've got a couple of good answers concerting quality & workmanship, but nobody has yet pointed at a dollar value and said "Beyond here lies Subjective Opinion." and in the end you will likely never get that answer unfortunately. Very simply these type items aren't priced according to workmanship and materials only. Many items are priced based on what they believe people will pay. There is not line in the sand even when focusing on one company or individual. Even with custom blades smiths will price not only according to the amount of time and materials invested, but rather what they believe people are willing to pay. You can find blades made very similarly in both time and materials but simly because of the design one will sell for a higher $ amount. So, you asked is a $600 sword $300 better than a $300 dollar sword......and the answer is YES.....and......NO. This type of question can ONLY be competently quantified when comparing two products.....anything else is philosophical. just my .02
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2009 5:58:52 GMT
I've got a couple of good answers concerting quality & workmanship, but nobody has yet pointed at a dollar value and said "Beyond here lies Subjective Opinion." and in the end you will likely never get that answer unfortunately. Very simply these type items aren't priced according to workmanship and materials only. Many items are priced based on what they believe people will pay. There is not line in the sand even when focusing on one company or individual. Even with custom blades smiths will price not only according to the amount of time and materials invested, but rather what they believe people are willing to pay. You can find blades made very similarly in both time and materials but simly because of the design one will sell for a higher $ amount. So, you asked is a $600 sword $300 better than a $300 dollar sword......and the answer is YES.....and......NO. This type of question can ONLY be competently quantified when comparing two products.....anything else is philosophical. just my .02 Exactly! The picture of the European blade above that is a "bargain" at $800? I like Japanese swords. In all seriousness, I wouldn't give $50 for the thing because I have no appreciation for what it is. In short, I would rather have a $250 katana. In this case, the $800 sword is worth less then the $250 sword. That is my own opinion with this set of factors. Without a measurable quantification of base worth, it is impossible to quantify growth. All you will end up with is random opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2009 6:11:50 GMT
All opinion is subjective, asking is a $300 sword better than an $800 sword is an exercise in circular argument, you will get a thousand opinions on both sides of the coin and chances are none of them will answer your question. Only we know what we like and don't like and until you have had a sword in hand it is hard to make comments more substantial than speculation and opinion. The beauty of the sword market is that if you buy a sword and don't like it chances are there is someone who will buy it off you allowing you to fuel the addiction. High end or low end whatever feels good to you and works to your specifications and parameters is a good sword, no ifs or buts.
I hope you know better now. I got a card for $155 second hand that can mostly keep up with the higher end cards and suits all my needs. What card did you spend that on?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2009 7:49:49 GMT
I know more about beer than wine although I dont drink much anymore. Of course beer isnt quite like wine, it sort of tops out, although there is beer that is $1000 a bottle. I just hope my sword isnt budweiser or a "light"american beer. It probably is. *sigh*
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Post by shadowhowler on Sept 18, 2009 7:55:50 GMT
Of course beer isnt quite like wine, it sort of tops out, although there is beer that is $1000 a bottle. Just goes to renforce the idea that value is subjective, and something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Even if I were a multi-millionare, I would never pay $1000 for a bottle of ANYTHING.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2009 13:04:08 GMT
Mr. Gear, I think you hit on the crux of the debate- what is the perceived worth of a piece? Perception is key and Oogway proves my point; he's looking at an Albion Knight and exclaiming that he wouldn't pay $50 for it because he doesn't know what it is. I would call BS but I think he said it to make a point and I have to agree with him.
You see, for me, the opposite is true- you could put a $800 katana (I can't think of one, Marc help me out here lol) in front of me and I wouldn't think much more of it than my Masahiro Bamboo- because I have no interest in it. That doesn't invalidate its worth, it just isn't worth anything to me- on the other hand, I DO appreciate the Albion Knight and I WILL eventually purchase one. It was the first sword in that bracket that I fell in love with, above all others, so its gonna get added some day. I guess in a way, they are like wine prices- because you know SOMEONE out there is gonna buy that wine...to them, it IS worth it.
Sean, if you were to become a multi-millionnaire (or worse yet, were born to it), I think eventually you'd be wipin your ass with c-notes and scoffing at wines that cost LESS than $1000...just my opinion, of course. lol
Oh wait, he said a beer...nah, can't see me payin that much for a bottle of BEER. And I love beer...because its cheap. LOL
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Post by stromloswordsusa on Sept 18, 2009 13:38:40 GMT
Hi all,
When I first saw the thread I assumed (for some reason) you were going to discuss whether swords increase in value with age. Seeing as we seem to have thrashed out the initial discussion fairly much, would anyone like to comment on:
If you have a great cutter, and the model is discontinued - does the value rise above the previous sell price? What if it is used. I'm thinking if the Albion forge got destroyed, and you had a brand new one in the box - all those people that lusted over it but didn't think it was worth it (couldn't afford it) would they go into bidding overdrive if there were to be no more!
I sell replica military swords, so for me the price/demand for a product is related to the production cost + the availability/cost of the authentic sword (keeps me interested anyway).
I used to wonder if all the SLO LOTR sword suppliers stopped making them if ebay would collapse, or would they start to be worth more, not less and less.
either way, I just figured if a well kept, good quality sword INcreases in value over time, then sword prices really are like wine... If they don't, and even the most fantasitic sword has the price only based on production costs and not on the name brand - then it's more like beer.
cheers,
rob
ps shiner beer is awesome... but then again so is Coopers. When in rome as they say.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Sept 18, 2009 13:40:34 GMT
when speaking of performance for price ratio there are some things that CAN be measured. Albion swords in almost every case out perform swords in the $300 and under range. when you look at distal taper, hadling, proper geometry for the type, and yes cutting power, you will find that in the sub $300-$350 range there are a LOT of inconsistancies, but when you get over $400 things start to level out. at $400-$450 you are starting to hit ATrim level blades and those can compete with Albion in a performance-only comparison. once you go above $550 you start to see less improvement in blade performance and more aesthetic improvement (things like peened pommels and better finishes), although there are still preformance gains, they just are not typically as obvious.
DISCLAIMER: the above statement is made with little personal knowledge of high end blades. I've had a few but for the most part I came to this conclusion based on the opinions of others I know who do have the experience. the albion and Atrim and high end Hanwei swords I have handled just confirmed for me what I have learned from others.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2009 14:20:31 GMT
I think Stromlo and Tom have it right. Good swords appreciate in value just like good wines, and for the same reasons: Vineyard, winemaker, and taste or Smith, forge and quality materials. Having spent nearly 15 years in the WA state wine industry I know that at every level of quality you start paying for the name on the bottle and the showplace winery it's made in, rather than the wine that is in the bottle. But you also quickly learn who makes the true quality wines at every pricepoint. This is right in line with Tom's thinking, at certain levels you expect certain things, "2 buck Chuck" is one level, Gallo is another, and Opus One is that beautiful $1200 sword you just can't forget.
just my opinions, K
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2009 14:38:25 GMT
when speaking of performance for price ratio there are some things that CAN be measured. Albion swords in almost every case out perform swords in the $300 and under range. I agree, however, now you are back to explaining worth....i.e. outperform=worth more If I understand correctly, the OP's question pertains to quantifying the price difference. If a blade (A) costs $300.....and blade (B) costs $600.....where did the 300 dollar price difference come from and why. Many will say that is comes from the upgrade in fittings and geometry perhaps....but the OP post seems to want to know....but why $300.....who decided that $300 was the magic number and why.
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Post by Brian of DBK on Sept 18, 2009 15:25:54 GMT
when speaking of performance for price ratio there are some things that CAN be measured. Albion swords in almost every case out perform swords in the $300 and under range. I agree, however, now you are back to explaining worth....i.e. outperform=worth more If I understand correctly, the OP's question pertains to quantifying the price difference. If a blade (A) costs $300.....and blade (B) costs $600.....where did the 300 dollar price difference come from and why. Many will say that is comes from the upgrade in fittings and geometry perhaps....but the OP post seems to want to know....but why $300.....who decided that $300 was the magic number and why. Albion has made it clear they charge according to what they think the sword will sell for. The difference between the Kingmaker & the Burgundian is $300 dollars, but it's the same blade. I've handled a lot of high-end swords, and just about every sub $300 sword. I can cleary clarify there is a huge difference that is usually worth it. In some cases, the price isn't justified. Of all the Albion sword's, if you only purchase one, the Knight is the best value, period. It's worth far more, and that isn't just my opinion, as many people will back that up. In car analogy, it's a sleeper that nobody know's what is under the hood, but when the light turn's green it will leave you speechless.
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Post by ShooterMike on Sept 18, 2009 15:50:42 GMT
The answer may be an individual thing, at least for me. I don't just mean "individual" as in "me." I mean "individual" as in "each individual sword." The reason for owning the sword really makes all the difference.
For instance, I have an Albion Knight (Type XII arming sword) and a one-off ATrim Type XII arming sword. The Knight retails for $800. The Atrim retails for $450.
Is the Knight twice as good? NO WAY! In fact, after I wrapped the grip core on the ATrim to match the grip on the Knight, it's a BETTER sword IMO.
But I still like the Knight. And I still think it's worth the asking price. But only if the buyer wants a really high-level performing sword that is completely historically accurate. If the idea is just to cut stuff, the ATrim is a much better value. If the idea is to cut stuff, but the emphasis is to have a historic sword on display in your home that you can use for show&tell to friends, the Knight is worth a lot more. How much more depends on which activity means more to you.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2009 17:05:02 GMT
Mike wrapped it up for me.
Function is what is most important for me. Finish is nice but not worth significantly more money. Of course, what defines significant is a good question.
Historical accuracy is even less important and I wouldn't pay anything extra for it.
For my tastes, I rather have 2 Atrims than 1 Albion.
And an example of how much a difference between a ATrim and lower cost swords:
I had a friend over that had never held a sword before. He had no idea what is good or bad. No clue. I let him hold and carefully swing each sword. His eyes lit up on the first (Windlass Raptor). "Is this how a REAL sword feels look on his face." And he nodded to himself as he went through 6 of my swords, commenting on the weight and feel of each.
Then I handed him the ATrim. His eyes lit up and his face twisted into a smile. "This must be the real good sword." he said. The finish on the ATrim is far rougher than my Kriegschwert. It is plainer than the Raptor. Yet even a person that knew nothing about swords could tell this was the best blade of the bunch.
So would I say the $600 Atrim is 3x the sword of the $200 Raptor? Not really. But darn close and worth every penny.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2009 17:11:51 GMT
It's not as straight forward as wine prices I don't think. I can't put my finger on it ...I have a hard time seeing the connection. I suppose ShooterMike got it pretty good but I feel there's more. I'm on corona #4 so hey hey..
In my view, if you are a backyard cutter/light practitioner/hobbyist (non dojo-JSA stuff) - once you hit the $600-$800 mark, it doesn't make sense to buy production swords. The reason is you can actually get a custom, give or take. Art or functionality, this is where the pricing begins.
Some of the smiths here can make awesome stuff around that, so it makes no sense to me to go and buy something mass produced. It's art, functionality and you - in one package. You can't beat that.
This is also where many debates/disections/deliberations/etc take place. People who went past that mark to buy productions can't help but get defensive. (Note: I do not consider Albions/MAS or even Atrims as production)
I guess there's a line draw, at least for some of us on the essence of pricing. Come close to that mark, and one better have something good to offer, like Dragonfly or Kensei etc.
The way things have gone for me in this hobby, is that I, sometimes we, have come to appreciate not just the gems in the rough, but the romanticism of finding that gem in the rough, again and again. In the early days it was the consistant KCs that performed/favored by dojo practitioners to the disbelief masses that worshipped the PPK, the Cheness Kaze blade with all its shortcomings - yet never fail to surprise, the Ryu of Oni Forge and all her glory, the $400 Atrims and I know I left some out..
For some of these, we don't know/appreciate how great they are until they're gone. Think of the Windlass German Bastard.
The All-Time superstar have got to be the Masahiro Bamboo. That blade started wars on many sword forums. I remember guys like Aaron Justice and Mark Ridgeway trying every which way to convince various camps, to no avail, that the blade was just friggin awesome. For $75? Ya right get real lol
I got mine for $47 on eBay.
Stuff like that, priceless.
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Post by Brian of DBK on Sept 18, 2009 17:26:46 GMT
Of course, there really is no clear answer, when a question that is clearly subjective to opinion is posed. It's a hobby of passion as I've stated before, and to be passionate about something usually mean's you have a strong opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2009 17:50:23 GMT
when speaking of performance for price ratio there are some things that CAN be measured. Albion swords in almost every case out perform swords in the $300 and under range. when you look at distal taper, hadling, proper geometry for the type, and yes cutting power, you will find that in the sub $300-$350 range there are a LOT of inconsistancies, but when you get over $400 things start to level out. at $400-$450 you are starting to hit ATrim level blades and those can compete with Albion in a performance-only comparison. once you go above $550 you start to see less improvement in blade performance and more aesthetic improvement (things like peened pommels and better finishes), although there are still preformance gains, they just are not typically as obvious. DISCLAIMER: the above statement is made with little personal knowledge of high end blades. I've had a few but for the most part I came to this conclusion based on the opinions of others I know who do have the experience. the albion and Atrim and high end Hanwei swords I have handled just confirmed for me what I have learned from others. Give Tom TWO cigars. This answer comes closest to answering the question I asked, which is where the lines are between MEASURABLE QUALITY DIFFERENCES and perception/taste/artistic dfferences. The Albions are generally considered the best. The Atrims are considered damn good. There is a significant price difference. How much difference is there in the measurable, quantifiable differences such as piece to piece consistency, steel temper, fit, fittings, etc. is the question being asked. At what price point do differences begin to shift away from quality improvements and bias toward cosmetic improvements?Appearance, including importance of historical accuracy, is subjective. You pay more for beauty, just like with women, but beautiful is not always equal to better - just like with women...
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