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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2009 20:16:43 GMT
Ok, let me explain that odd title question. When I was going to culinary school many years ago I studied wines on the side. I found it fairly easy to learn and taste the difference between a cheap $2 wine, a $6 wine and a decent $10-$15 wine. After a while, I could appreciate the diffeence between those wines and a $20-$25 bottle of wine. I could never find anything in the $40 an up wines that I thought were any better than the best of the more moderately priced wines. And as for that $20 wine; Yes, it was better than the $10 wine, but not twice as good, imho. There was not a direct value/cost corollary in my mind. So I think you get where I'm headed here. This is a forum for sub-$300 blades. We know the biggest majority of the <$100 blades are junk SLO's. But are the +$300 blades "THAT" much better than their under $300 counterparts? If I pay $1,200 for One-Thumb Joe Hammersmith's handmade Oakeshott XXXVIIII, am I getting 4 times the blade as the Han-lass/Gen2.5 version for $299? Or am I merely telling everyone that I have $1200 to spend on a blade? Is there a line where value received vs money spent on a blade gets a little out of proportion? I think of the fortunes some audiophiles spend on esoteic sound systems or amateur photographers spend on camera gear.
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Post by sparky on Sept 17, 2009 20:25:19 GMT
That's a good question gearloose.
I can't answer it but I have read other people say that you can really tell a difference when you pick up a higher end sword.
So anyway, I'm looking forward to the replies this question gets.
Thanks, Rob
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2009 20:26:25 GMT
After a certain point, what you are paying for stops being "practical" and starts becoming "art". If I was buying strictly for decoration or love of the art of swordsmithing, then $1000 is absolutely worth it for what amounts to a near-flawless work of art. If I'm going to go cut water bottles in the back yard with it, then your average good quality sub-300 cutter is fine.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2009 20:30:50 GMT
After a certain point, what you are paying for stops being "practical" and starts becoming "art". If I was buying strictly for decoration or love of the art of swordsmithing, then $1000 is absolutely worth it for what amounts to a near-flawless work of art. If I'm going to go cut water bottles in the back yard with it, then your average good quality sub-300 cutter is fine. That's what I'm looking for: Opinions on where that point is, dollar-wise. I'm sure folks have differing opinions.
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Post by sicheah on Sept 17, 2009 20:49:21 GMT
After a certain point, what you are paying for stops being "practical" and starts becoming "art". If I was buying strictly for decoration or love of the art of swordsmithing, then $1000 is absolutely worth it for what amounts to a near-flawless work of art. If I'm going to go cut water bottles in the back yard with it, then your average good quality sub-300 cutter is fine. Agree, adding my penny worth of thought, swords has certain mystical aspects that affects most advanced cultures in the world (well at least advanced enough to produce a functional sword) if you look into the history of swords, some swords are ornately decorated with gems, silver and gold, some are used for art and ceremonial occasion. Some swords are used to display ranks of kings, emperors and high official. Surely those swords are many times more expensive than a common soldier's sword. Doesn't mean that it is many times better. Just a thought, I could tell if the distance is twice as long, but is someone says that sword is twice as better than the other ... well how do you quantify a notion of "better"?
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Post by ShooterMike on Sept 17, 2009 20:56:52 GMT
You said that you are looking for opinions. So here's my opinion...
Preface: My opinion is solely related to currently available reproductions of European Medieval swords. Any other genre are out of my experience. So my comments don't apply to them.
Given your analogy, I would rate the $100-200 swords in the $2 wine category, with the higher end sub-$350 swords in the $6 wine category. That would place the $350-650 swords in the $10-15 wine range. The $700-1,200 swords would fit in the $20-25 wine range. The higher-priced wines would correlate with the higher priced custom swords in the $1,500-5,000 price range.
Those are just the way I would rate them. The difference between any sword Windlass/MRL has ever offered and a good ATrim is miles apart. Once you've tasted the higher priced version, the other leaves you with a bad taste in your mouth.
The new Valiant Armoury and Hanwei-Tinker offerings sort of bridge the gap. They get some aesthetics a bit better. But they give up some in handling and other significant performance issues, as compared to a real ATrim sword.
The standard ATrim will handle as well as any swords from anyone, but they look plain. What you get from going up in price are improved aesthetics and historical accuracy in assembly. That is the reason that Albion fans love Albion swords. The swords perform well, and they look just like they were plucked off of a medieval cutler's table of wares. I would rate Arms&Armor as being similar, though a little less refined in fit and finish. They aren't quite up to the "reality" of Albion's offerings, but A&A swords cost a bit less.
Those are the brands I have substantial experience with. As for the offerings from makers such as Del Tin and various manufacturers in the UK and eastern Europe, I haven't had a chance to experience them, so I didn't include them in my ramblings.
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Post by wiwingti on Sept 17, 2009 21:02:57 GMT
personally, i would say that some 300.00 swords value as much as 1000.00 swords. but always depending of the brand, steel ect......
exemple, i have a Hanwei ronin katana here and it is a marvelous sword it have a value of 1100.00 and i would say that compare to a lot of 300.00 swords it doesn't value that much.
because of what you will say? because some 300.00 swords are ,as tight ito, as nice fittings and none rattlling.
the only diference, the ronin is a bit( a tinny bit) lighter.
but
on another side, if you look at the Oni katana from Hanwei 1699.00 value, that sword is something great.
so it always depend of a lot of factors, and i know, a lot won't agree with me, and
i am sure a lot of different opinion will come.
but,
every one have different need, requests from a sword so, you always have to take half of it and read between lines, because two people can have the same sword and one will love it ,and the second one will hate it.
there always will be something better but, there will always be something worst too man.
some people prefer t have only one sword that value 2500.00 and some people prefer to have a lot of them in the 300.00 range that have as much value as the 1000.00 ones, if you know what i mean.
there could be tons of exemples, i took these two swords as exemles but there could have been a lot of others, to compare them too.
marc
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Post by YlliwCir on Sept 17, 2009 21:23:14 GMT
I have an Albion, a couple Atrims and then some $300 types and down to an $80 Musashi. You get what you pay for. Atrims, definitely worth the money. The Albion great sword, a bit on the high side but excellent workmanship and good warranty that I have experienced (grip got shifty, sent it back and fixed for free, just paid shipping one way), I'd say worth it also. That's not to say I don't appreciate the lower priced swords I do indeed and am just as apt to grab one of those to play with as the higher priced ones. Depends on my mood really. Hell, back in the day I used to like to drink a jug of Mad Dog even with a pocket full of money.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2009 21:47:11 GMT
Two of my sub $100.00 swords have so far been my best bottle cutters, but when you see what one of those Howard Clark L6 blades can do to a huge roll of Tatami mats, you can see why it's worth the approx. $1,400.00 Oops! I guess my memory failed on that price! $3,800.00
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2009 21:57:31 GMT
Two of my sub $100.00 swords have so far been my best bottle cutters, but when you see what one of those Howard Clark L6 blades can do to a huge roll of Tatami mats, you can see why it's worth the approx. $1,400.00 Where can you get a Clark L6 for $1400? I think you are thinking MAS prices. Clark charges around $3800 for a bare unpolished unmounted blade. If you know something I don't, please let me know so I can be first in line!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2009 21:58:26 GMT
Two of my sub $100.00 swords have so far been my best bottle cutters, but when you see what one of those Howard Clark L6 blades can do to a huge roll of Tatami mats, you can see why it's worth the approx. $1,400.00 Are you suggesting that your Howard Clark is 14x the sword your hundred buck cutters are, or just 14x as expensive and only 3-4x the sword? That's the question I'm asking. At what point does X times the price not equal X times the sword? Art always being subjective and in the eye of the beholder, I'll redefine my question to one of quality/performance.
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Post by enkidu on Sept 17, 2009 22:20:30 GMT
I agree with almost everything Mike said. The scale provided by Mike is perfect, and take from someone who loves wine and swords almost equally.. both are displayed in the same room at home Note : I never saw a 3$ wine bottle, ( and its a good thing for my liver ) here in Quebec we cant get anything under the 10$ mark, but thats something related to taxes and ''free'' social services of our socialist/center-left inspired governing body, but i can translate to pretty much the same scale. Totally irrevelant information here by the way. So... yeah they are worth it, because there's a world of difference between a tailor made sword to your tastes and a production model. Production models are always made to be somewhat cost-efficient and to acheive this they have to cut corners, you'll get either performance or finish or a mix of half and half. Unless you get a customized Atrim, an Albion or a A&A, then you'll get both for sure from a production model, but for a price where you can get something custom made... tough choice Handling and finish are the critical points here and they are what really differentiate swords at their different price points... as Mike said its quite hard to come back after handling a 1000$ sword. But before going there you have to get your hands on as many swords as you can to know what you really like and thats where good production models are a must. And some of swords i have the most fun cutting with are under the 300 mark... the valiant-atrim practical LS is one good exemple. But she's nothing compared to my Tinker Grand espee de guerre or my ATMMXIII... they are different in every aspect but are they 3-4 times better swords... i cant say so, probably not. As a 30$ bottle is rarely twice as fun as a good 15$ bottle It all depends on taste ! I dont know if i made much sense.. i have a terrible flu and it has contaminated my mind ;p
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2009 23:30:07 GMT
Lest someone get the wrong idea, I unfortunately do not own a Howard Clark Katana, although I think I would trade my entire sword collection for one ;D I think a better comparison to swords than wine would be cars, a Bugatti Veyron costs a lot more than a Ford Focus, but it can go 225+ MPH. So is it worth 1.5 million? Based on what I've seen, the Howard Clark blade's cutting performance makes it worth the price,
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Post by shadowhowler on Sept 17, 2009 23:53:05 GMT
ShooterMike said it pretty well. I had this Conversation with Tinker awhile ago... and he had some great input on the mater. If we are talking just about production swords... not customs... then there is certainly a noticiebale difference as you go up in price... but at a certain point it is not a liner incress in value. This is true in almost all things. For example... The Difference between a $50 sword and a $100 dollar sword could very well be a 100% incress in value... the $100 dollar sword being twice as good. Then the difference between a $100 dollar sword and a $200 dollar sword might only be 80%... the $200 sword is 80% better in total then the $100 dollar sword. Then $200 - $300 the Difference might only be 60%... and so on. Till you get to the point where the difference between a $500 production sword and a $1000 production sword is really only maybe 30%-40%. Its true of swords, cars, just about anything I can think off... the more you pay, eventualy, the slidding scale goes down so that at the upper limits your paying more and getting less improvement for your dollar... but you have to pay top dollar if you want top product. Customs are a whole different animal... because they are made to order and attended by a single person (in most cases) every step of the way... its harder to put a price on that. At that point, its much more subjective, like art... its worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2009 0:16:31 GMT
ShooterMike said it pretty well. I had this Conversation with Tinker awhile ago... and he had some great input on the mater. If we are talking just about production swords... not customs... then there is certainly a noticiebale difference as you go up in price... but at a certain point it is not a liner incress in value. This is true in almost all things. For example... The Difference between a $50 sword and a $100 dollar sword could very well be a 100% incress in value... the $100 dollar sword being twice as good. Then the difference between a $100 dollar sword and a $200 dollar sword might only be 80%... the $200 sword is 80% better in total then the $100 dollar sword. Then $200 - $300 the Difference might only be 60%... and so on. Till you get to the point where the difference between a $500 production sword and a $1000 production sword is really only maybe 30%-40%. Its true of swords, cars, just about anything I can think off... the more you pay, eventualy, the slidding scale goes down so that at the upper limits your paying more and getting less improvement for your dollar... but you have to pay top dollar if you want top product. Customs are a whole different animal... because they are made to order and attended by a single person (in most cases) every step of the way... its harder to put a price on that. At that point, its much more subjective, like art... its worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Give the man a cigar! ;D This is exactly what I am asking people to think about. Everyone wants to think that the price they paid for something was fair value for goods received. Nobody wants to think they paid "too much." With swords, as with cars, stereos and even hunting dogs, there is a large component of perceived value. Buying "art" is even moreso. A painting is worth a mllion dollars only if there is a general consensus among other art buyers who might want that particular item that it is worth a million dollars. Without buyers,a painting is just oil pigment and turpentine smeared on canvas and stretched over a wooden frame - with equal cash value. Imagine the value of a Van Gogh today if impressionism had never caught on...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2009 0:36:04 GMT
I will say though that in the sword industry (replicas in general) more then any other industry you get what you pay for ............ I had a video card for my computer that only lasted 2 years I spent 1100AUS on ........ I could of bought an Albion NEARLY two for that .............. A sword ...... lasts ....... forever ....... keep it in great condition it could be an heirloom .......... cant say a windlass cuts that but any Albions I own will be passed to my son .......... its a one off price, it needs nothing more then a little oil and sharpen ......... and the best part is its a very honest industry which holds no secrets from its customers ......... these are all concepts which I find are hard to put a price on and all together are priceless ........... Think within yourself ........... theres a whole lot of more expensive things you might like to collect but swords have alot of bonuses (I rambled on about that in one of gearlooses other posts) so yeah sorry to hijack a bit gear ........... Also its about what satisfies you, liquor stores and vineyards would have hard business if demand for expensive wine was singular and you couldnt move a more low cost wine from a less selective crop ........... its good (from a business point) that there is demand for 200 and 1000 dollar blades ............ and hey if you find you need a 1000 dollar blade and nothing less NOTHING wrong with that .......... just you better start saving
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Sept 18, 2009 0:38:07 GMT
Are sword prices like BEER prices?
(Didn't mean to shout.)
What something is "worth" is a human construct, and what goes into deciding what something is worth can be different for everybody. For someone who just wants decoration, or a RenFaire accoutrement, maybe no sword is better than a $40 SLO. For a dedicated backyard cutter, to whom cutting mats is the holy grail, maybe no sword is better than (just picking a name at random here) a Hanwei PPK. For a beginning backyard cutter, maybe that monosteel, through hardened $300 katana is the bee's knees. What is, for instance, clay tempering worth to a swordsman? Probably depends on who he is.
I mentioned swords being like beer prices. Here in Texas, we've got a little brewery called Spoetzel that produces Shiner beer. I like Shiner beer. I like it for the beer itself, but also for the history and tradition, for the link that Shiner beer expresses between Bohemian immigrants and Texas, the old world and the new. If Budweiser produced a beer that was just every bit as good as Shiner . . . a sixpack of Shiner would still be worth more to me, because it's a small, independent Texas brewery.
To wrench this back to swords, let's suppose that the Chinese forge used by Valiant really, really got their act together, and produced the Angus Trim designed blades to a level that they couldn't be told from an Angus Trim produced blade. Would an ATrim blade be worth more than a Valiant Armoury AT-303S? Well, to me it would, because the ATrim blade would have been made by the designer, by an individual craftsman, and (yes) here in America.
My two kopeks!
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Post by farandolae on Sept 18, 2009 0:56:33 GMT
Excellent analogy and some great input. I guess this really strike home for me as I prepare to get my first European sword. My katana was an easy choice in comparison. To get it used made it that much sweeter a buy, I felt like I had found that case of wine that was put on sale by accident(I have a Tori). But now that I know what Oakeshott style I'm looking for, I have to decide what price range and like wine, each price range does make a difference. Hanwei Tinker, nice dinner wine, not bad for cooking, VA, better for cooking, nicer bouquet and a better finish or an Albion, is it really that superior to the others? Sometimes I go back and contemplate getting that Munich, the XVIIIb and to me the only thing that can compare would be the XVIIIe variant, the Dane and with it the price tag. But for under the $300 mark is the Tinker and for half the price of an Albion is the VA.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2009 1:08:06 GMT
I find the analogy of wine to swords amusing. I don't drink any longer, but when I did and it came to wine it seemed that the more expensive and 'elite' the wine was the more disgusting I found it. I really enjoyed the 3$ Boone's Hill Farm wine over Merlot Chardoney (I know I butchered that spelling) or any other expensive wine. I drank for the taste. There were people that would tell me that I just did not have a refined palette, or that it was an aquired taste... That statement has always made me laugh. If you have to aquire a taste for something, as in it didn't taste good to begin with... then why bother? Anyways nearly everything that can be said about sword quality vs. sword price has been said. How your money is spent really depends on what you are looking for in a sword. If you are asking does more money improve the cutting power of a particular style of blade? Probably not too much. Through production blades there comes a point where it is what it is and throwing more money at it just isn't going to help. Custom hand-forged jobs though, each smith knows his trade, knows what kind of quality he can put out, and the more patience and care put into a piece generally tends to yield greater results. So a smith can charge for the varying levels of his craft and in that sense yes, spending more will earn you a better return. Really you should always do research on any new blade you're considering. find user reviews. See what people are saying about other items from that smith/company. Contact the smith/company personally and ask them about their forging process. Don't be afraid to ask what something means if you don't understand a term.
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Post by mythosequidae on Sept 18, 2009 1:51:20 GMT
I'm currently comparing the Albion Squire Line, Late 15th Century Bastard, to the Next Generation Mercenary. Same thing mostly. The Mercenary has a bit more blade, and a prettier grip. Maybe an ounce out on weight. Squire is $490 USD, Mercenary is $800 USD. Is the Next Generation worth the extra $310?
For the person who likes to look and handle, yet is not involved with sword arts or serious cutting, is the big dollar production sword worth the additional cost? Will a VA Signature satisfy? I get much enjoyment out of Windlasses. They are still pretty from 8'.
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