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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2009 17:19:40 GMT
I have seen many beautiful swords but is damascus steel worth the money? Have today’s modern high carbon steel technology made the need for damascus steel obsolete?
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Post by brotherbanzai on Sept 6, 2009 17:26:54 GMT
Worth the money for a functional advantage, no. Worth the money for it's visual appeal, yes. Also, before someone jumps on you about it, I assume you are referring to pattern welded steel rather than "true" damascus steel. Some people bristle at the two names being used interchangeably though I think everyone knows what you mean when you say "damascus".
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Sept 6, 2009 17:49:13 GMT
what I dislike about the term "damascus" is that so many people don't know what it really is and a lot of sellers make no effort at all to be honest about it. I've even seen sellers who have historical retellings of how great damascus steel was and how much it was sought after and then they list their pattern welded stuff as damascus. grrrrrrr. I don't like that. as for pattern welded blades, they can be worth it if they are done well. I'd stay away from the cheaper ones though. they often are made with really low carbon steels and tend to not be up to being used like a sword. if 1045 is in the mix don't buy it. true the better steels cost more but there's a good reason for that. if you want to see pattern welding by one of the best (but who's prices I will never likely be able to afford) then check out www.atar.com there you will find the works of Dr. Jim Hrisoulas which will make you drool if you like patter welding at all.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2009 19:54:30 GMT
If you're referring to the pattern welded steel commonly branded "Damascus", then it's only worth it if your collection "needs" a pattern welded blade, and only if it's actually pattern welded.
If you're referring to the strange steel that's been surpassed by modern alloys, then see the above.
M.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2009 16:47:31 GMT
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Sept 7, 2009 16:57:49 GMT
oh yeah Jake Powning makes awesome stuff.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2009 15:59:41 GMT
This question often arises from my friends when they see my Odinblades pattern welded Zweihander and I tell them how much it cost me. For what I spent on it I could have had 2-3 monosteel zweihanders from John Lundemo. I like the idea of a forged blade, the amount of time spent, the skill and artistic talent it takes and of course the beautiful pattern you get! I also went with a reputable smith, Jerry Rados, to make the blade stock. Many production companies use stock removal, which is fine, but I like knowing someone hammered this thing together! I understand even with a forged blade there is a hefty amount of sanding and grinding. But alot of forge hours go into a sword blade size piece of "Damascus"!
So to put it bluntly, if its worth it to you, its worth it! Its your sword.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2009 16:35:22 GMT
if you want to see pattern welding by one of the best (but who's prices I will never likely be able to afford) then check out www.atar.com there you will find the works of Dr. Jim Hrisoulas which will make you drool if you like patter welding at all. <shameless name drop> Jim's an old friend of the family. My parents have a couple of his smaller pieces (a dagger and some pattern-welded flatwear. </shameless name drop>
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Sept 9, 2009 16:45:14 GMT
that must be really cool. I have his complete bladesmith book and have poured through it many many times. someday I may even use the info. I only wish I could afford to commission some serious work from him.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2009 19:42:51 GMT
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Sept 9, 2009 20:34:10 GMT
LOL this is turning into a who's who of pattern welding.
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Post by hotspur on Sept 9, 2009 22:33:30 GMT
Kevin Cashen has done some excellent work. There was a presentation of the evolution with the birth of one piece. forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=13809His site www.cashenblades.com/Some I have had the pleasure of cutting with and handling He began a couple of decades ago and has still been known to do some plainer blades. Here is one in my stable from his journeyman smith days. On that table also is a dirk from Vince Evans, for some reason Dennis had not brought out the Salamander dagger to play that day. Both old and new traditions of work from Vince. I don't have a good picture of my folded blade folder handy but here is my Vince bowie in twisted O1/L6. There are a couple of pages of work for his work and bio. www.arscives.com/vevans/www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/listing/user/vevansAl Massey doesn't have a page these days but used to do blades for Jake Powning. Al still posts over at SFI and appears to be still active, in a low key manner. Craig Steketee is probably pretty obscure to many but does some excellent knives. Hiding on Ebay, he is quite prolific and there is a steady supply of effort. search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZstekknivesQQhtZ-1Too many to list really. What is really dismal is to see stenciled surface etches being called folded or damascus, when it is nothing more than painting and a fake effort. Look deep at those sometimes and the look is quite superficial and not folded at all. We see it here sometimes. Others I see are really questionable and fluff to wow sales. Cheers Hotspur; some of the third country blades are getting better at it
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Post by hotspur on Sept 9, 2009 23:44:50 GMT
I still don't have great indoor lighting but here are some quick pictures of my early Vince Evans folder. Finished on January 13, 1995. One of a batch he made for a friend as presentations. This is folder #14, of 84 (as of his writing in 2002) Other knives and swords at that point numbered approximately 1300. The <x mark is continued on all his blades. The bolster engraving was done later by someone else. What is not coming across well is the hamon, differentially hardened. The blade steels are a mix of (per his remembrances) 5160 and saw steel (likely L6). The blade is numbered on the kick of the blade EVANS F 14. The bolsters, pins and liners are white brass (also known as German silver, or nickel silver). The grip slabs are paka wood and dovetail into the bolsters. This came to me from a batch of older Evans items that had come up for sale. I kick myself for not grabbing the tail locks that had come up at the same time. I have used this knife a good bit over time and although it is usually in a glassed case, along with other pretties were made to be used and with due care will last forever. The only piece I really regard as art only and don't use (for possible value appreciation) is the twist blade posted previously. That said, it is a very handy small bowie blade and could serve due duty. Cheers Hotspur; as mentioned regarding the Cashen blades, they have all had some exposure to cutting
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2009 23:46:47 GMT
That is a nice looking knife. I would be afraid to use it for fear of damaging the blade.
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Post by hotspur on Sept 10, 2009 0:10:03 GMT
Hi Jonathan, There is not really a very fine line between use and abuse. As mentioned, the only one I adopted for not getting some use is the the twisted bowie and the only reasoning there was to leave it for the next person that would be looking for an entirely unused knife. Of dozens of blades I have, many have seen at least some use. With care, any good tool or weapon will last virtually forever. My period swords were all used and some still see me cutting with them. It is mostly the organic materials that degrade in use but even some of those here in my stable are going strong after two centuries. It is the philosophy many present as beaters that try swords and knives beyond intended purpose. I know that well, as I have a sword blade in two pieces )now reborn with a new blade. granted, it was poorly heat treated but I had been doing something that could be considered abusive. Cheers Hotspur; at most, my more expensive blades get a little scuffed from the original polishes
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Sept 10, 2009 0:41:40 GMT
Oh yeah Jake's Vardhllokur is drop dead gorgeous. I think Hotspur's last photo illustrates a big point (lower pic second from left). All those folds and vast amounts of welding leave a ginormous space for error in pattern welding. That photo show's a void in the steel - which is possibly a result of an inclusion from the forge OR a patch of weld that didn't take, and created a void over subsequent manipulation. Coal type forges (as used in third world forges) are dirty things and if a bit of coal, or ash, or scale sticks to the blade and makes it into the weld you have a weak spot. Modern hot rolled flatbar stock is space aged stuff in comparison. Perfectly homogenised and geometrical - REALLY good sword stock So if you're talking sub $1000 I'd stick to the monosteel for performance. A top end smith probably uses a hi tech propane forge or the like to avoid all these inclusions - I dunno, maybe Matt Stagmer could chime in here as to what they use. Then you do also have places doing pattern welding with very low carbon steel, or stainless steels for display. But the work of a good smith is ofcourse a beautiful thing, and it is a tonne of work so no it's not gonna be cheap. You get what you pay for. As Jordan ponts out a big piece of damascus can cost thousands, and it took him over a year waiting for that piece of stock to be birthed - he may infact own one of the longest/largest pattern welded swords in history. If you go hanwei or global gear and pay $100 for pattern, well, you aren't going to get a better piece of steel than mono, just prettier.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2009 0:44:33 GMT
That sword is made by Hanwei, right? It makes me wonder what you were cutting. I know that you have a lot of experience with swords and cutting various targets, so what would you recommend for me to cut without having to worry a lot about damaging my sword? Are there any specific things that I should not cut?
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Post by hotspur on Sept 10, 2009 1:26:42 GMT
Re: the Godfred
I was splitting short and fairly narrow lengths of hickory for my smoker. These were far from heavy blows by the way. Another truth was that I was using what many perceive as the center of percussion as being the best place to cut with. Had I been using the blade further out on the blade, it may never have broken as it did.
While that shot does show what may look like just a void, the other half of the blade showed a male for that female. The failure was more to do with gross over-heating and grain growth being held at that heat. When it broke, it didn't fly away. Far from it. It ripped like taffy and it took more blows and then literally my ripping/flexing the last quarter of an inch at the remaining edge to separate it. You can see the raggedness of the large grain quite well.
FWIW, I liked the sword enough that I had bought another blade and remounted the fittings. These were both from the early versions of this sword from Hanwei. I had corresponded directly with Paul Chen after this event and agreed that the problem was as stated. Hopefully taken into account, the model itself was never meant for what I had put it through. These continue to be pretty soft in nature but really quite wonderfully pleasant to wield. I have no problem suggesting they are capable of light duty cutting and even somewhat more so. When I had first received that sword, the first thing I did was slice a kerf through both sides of a hollow core door at shin height. Since remounting, I have left it to play with lighter targets.
Considering I had bought the sword on sale for $250 and I paid something like $130 for a bare blade, I am still at around the normal price for one, with experience and horror stories I can share forever.
I will also re-iterate that I have no problem using expensive and even some antique swords. As mentioned, I only regard that one bowie as an investment item, aside from antiques that will generally always appreciate some, used or not. I have cut with a variety of my antiques and while not an everyday occurrence, they have been a great deal of fun. Again, it is the organic parts that are an issue.
The Cashen table shows one plain blade that Kevin had made for Dennis to offer him an everyday cutter. That one would be an eye opener to many as well, having an eight inch center of gravity while feeing it flies like a butterfly. However, all had been used and cared for.
Cheers
Hotspur; I'd point out some again real charlatans that market widely but it wouldn't solve the problem of misrepresentation
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Sept 10, 2009 4:52:04 GMT
Thanks Glen. I understand about the male to that female now. You can see the grain is shocking. There's another pitfall of cheap pattern welding. The extremely high temps required for welding will always create way oversized grain. That would then be corrected by multiple normalising cycles at a low austentitic temperature (around 820-840C - bright red to light orange depending on the light and the steel). Again very time consuming ($), and better done with higher tech temperature controlled equipment, not what third world forges are likely to put into a cheap blade.
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