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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2009 2:06:11 GMT
Toughness isn't what I'm looking for, but it has to be a "real" sword, not a wall-hanger that just looks nice. It has to satisfy the requirement of "use" for me to consider it worth considering. try to avoid the cheap swords if your budget will allow, if not then be very picky and we'll help you find those few gems in the heaps of lower priced crap. While a $1000 sword sounds nice I don't think I'm at a point where I even know enough to appreciate it. Based on my experience and knowledge I want to start with something simpler. What's the difference you're looking at between the $250-$350 range and the $350-$500 range? So let's say anywhere between $250 and $500 to start. ;D I know that what I want is a two edged blade that can be used with either one hand or two hands. So I guess that means I'm looking for more of a cutter than a stabber. From what I understand that means a hand-and-a-half sword. I think this is a medieval type of blade as opposed to a renaissance blade, as well as it would be European in origin. I know this is the style I'm looking for, but given all the variety that's out there and my lack of knowledge I'm trying to figure out how to start, if that makes any sense. Oh, we're all about functionality here, no one will recommend any sort of wallhanger, have no fear. Nice price range...you'll be able to get a really good sword for that. You can check out myArmoury if you want to learn about European swords, like blade types and the Oakeshott typology: www.myarmoury.com/feature_oakeshott2.htmlIndeed it seems you're after a bastard sword, i.e. a medieval european one-and-a-half hander. There's many options for you to choose from and I'm sure you'll get a lot of suggestions. Have fun.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Sept 2, 2009 2:14:25 GMT
this is a good price range
in the $250-$350 range for hand and a halfers my first suggestion is to look at two swords:
Hanwei Tinker Bastard Sword (this one qualifies for a special deal from me if you look in the review section at the H/T Norman review)
Valiant Armory Practical Longsword (not really supposed to be a hand and a halfer but really pretty much is)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2009 5:08:48 GMT
cool beans.
So two interesting items look like the CAS Tinker hand and a half and the ATRIM 304S practical long sword from valiant armoury. Both seem to be good swords for the first time buyer based on the reviews.
So what is the difference between a long sword and a hand and a half and a bastard sword? Are they really three different ways of saying the same thing or are there variations to the design which puts these in different classes? Like is the long sword a hand and a half with longer blade? Is it just semantics?
Just curious because the hilt on the tinker SH2400 is a 9.375" while the 304s is 7". I don't have big hands so I think a 7" handle is plenty big enough for what I'm looking for, and a handle of 9" I might be able to get both fists wrapped around the hilt with a little room to spare. Is there a general rule of thumb of how big the hilt should be? a range of almost 2.5" seems big to me - almost as if the SH2400 is designed for bigger hands than the 304s.
The atrim looks like it might be more bang for the buck, I'll have to read the reviews a little more carefully. Okay, now I'm just starting to ramble.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Sept 2, 2009 5:30:56 GMT
this is a good question. a reasonable question deserving of a reasonable answer. I don't have on for you.
it seems to me they are supposed to be two different swords based on what I've read from Mr. Oakeshott, but it also seems to me that the definition of Longsword and bastard sword have significant overlap in the real world of modern swords.
my understanding is that a hand and a half or "Bastard" sword would have a hilt just long enough to squeeze a second hand in on the hilt by gripping the pommel and that using it one handed should be no problem.
the Hanwei/Tinker bastard sword (from what I hear) is pretty nice in one hand but perhaps a bit too light and fast in two.
the Practical Longsword (AT304s) is supposed to be a two handed sword, a longsword but I own one and I have no trouble using it one handed and the grip is short enough my second hand has to grip the pommel at least some.
so the Hanwei Tink (I hear) works better in one hand and has a hilt that may be a bit too long for type while the VA AT304 works best in two hands and has grip short enough it might be mis-classified. either way both swords can be used one or two handed and both have lots of good points.
tough call. I'll sharpen a H/T bastard for free though based on an offer I just extended to the community because I'm crazy.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2009 6:04:29 GMT
Well if I was in the market for a H/T bastard I would jump on that offer. BTW Tom, just curious but there are 2 different bastards.. does the offer count for both? About the 304s, that fits my hands like it was made for it. I can grip it without using the pommel. And thinking about the length of the grip on the Tinker swords. It might be accurate for a bastard when you consider the men using them wearing heavy gloves or gauntlets but please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2009 6:09:07 GMT
Okay so all hand and a half swords are bastard swords. All hand and a half are longswords...but not all bastard swords are longswords. In anycase, many longsword types can be used in either one or two hands...it´s just a matter of ease. The VA atrim longsword for example is nice in two hands...not so good in one. The hanwei tinker bastard sword is exactly the opposite...nice in one hand...not so good in two. edit: also the difference between 250-350 range and around 500 can be cosmetic...or performance. 500 is a true atrim range and while you may not fully appreciate the difference, you will in all likely know there is one (assuming you hold a cheaper sword to compare). Oh and you said cutting oriented...the hanwei tinker bastard sword is definitely NOT cutting oriented. A narrow blade XVIIIa isn´t gonna a good cutter...but it is still a very nice sword. I love mine...although unless your good with sharpening I would take up Tom on his offer. The edge is bad...and even the new improved edge isn´t quite what I call good...better...but not good. I don´t know why, but the bastard sword model seems to have the worst edge of the lineup .
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2009 12:24:15 GMT
This a subjective statement, it depends on your level of ability as to how well it will cut, often thin bladed profiles cut the best, also depends on who designed the sword and for what purpose it was designed.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Sept 2, 2009 14:52:28 GMT
Wraith, perhaps you are mixing thin with narrow. thin blades tend to cut great but narrow blades not so much.
Cold Napalm now I'm confused: I thought hand-and-a-half and bastard were the same sword while longsword was different. I thought H&H/bastard swords tended to have blades a little bit longer but closer to arming sword length (31-35") with hilts from 5 to 7 inches while longswords tended to have blades 34-35" and up with long hilts (8+ inches) but I'm just puling these numbers out of the air as what I expect from these types not any real info. I suppose I could look up type characteristics in the Oakeshott spotlight on myarmoury but that's more like work than I'm prepared for right now.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2009 15:02:53 GMT
Hmm now I'm confused to I always learned that the term bastard and hand-and-a-half where interchangeable
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2009 17:22:09 GMT
Wraith, the hanwei is narrow and thick...which is a bad thing for cutting...good for the stab though. Not to say you can´t cut with it...just it´s not what the blade is strongest at. Tom, H&H and bastard are almost interchangeable...however there are a few rare exceptions where the blade is that of an arming sword´s 28-30 inches but with the extended handle length for hand and a half grip. You see these earlier on...and they are in general sword that don´t fit into oakeshott´s typology(or are XIIIb or XVIIIa in later eras)...but anyways these are bastard swords by the bastard sword definition, but not H&H as the blades are too short. However, unless your shifting through ancient swords, it just becomes splitting hairs .
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2009 0:45:56 GMT
okay, I'm nearly there, and I'm thinking the tinker pearce sharpened bastard sword (SH2411) is the way I want to go.
So in comparison with the AT304S the hilts are roughly the same length, but the center of gravity on the atrim is 6.5" while on the tinker it is 3.5". It also looks like the atrim blade is 3" longer, too, which could be the reason for the difference in the center of gravity, though I would think that being 3" longer would necessitate a center of gravity difference of more than 3". Now, I'm not sure if I'm thinking about this right or not, but a closer center of gravity should indicate a blade that is easier to use 1 handed. The reviews I've read on this site for the 304S commented on how it could be wielded with one hand, but was really meant for two handed use.
Now both these swords are not flashy, so I'm working on an assumption that as far as looks go they are pretty accurate, and as far as weight they look to be right in the ballpark, the tinker coming in at 2 lbs 6 oz and the atrim at 2 lbs 9 oz. So that looks good there, and they both seem, from reviews, to be pretty durable. So all my requirements are met and I'm down to just making the decision. ;D
Now, what's the purpose of a fuller? Is it simply an aesthetic thing or is there some other reason to have it?
Anyway, thanks for the input guys, I expect to make a choice within the next day or so.
btw, I might just be completely blind or something, but is there someway to subscribe to threads to get notification of when there are updates?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2009 1:09:19 GMT
I believe that fullers reduce the weight of swords.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2009 1:35:59 GMT
Fuller reduced weight and changes sword dynamics. The fullered bastard sword version has a bit more omph in the cut then then the none fullered version.
And closer PoB isn't about how handy the sword is in one hand per say...but it is one of the big factors for how agile a sword is. It is also one of the main factors in point control for a sword in a stab. The VA has a PoB 3 inch further not just because it's 3 inches longer but because that is the style of sword it is. It is a more cut oriented sword which is why it's balanced like that.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2009 1:36:02 GMT
As Jonathan rightly stated, its purpose is purely to reduce the weight of swords, just about anything else you read about their purpose is often ridiculous.
Kokoro: You should also look at PoB when you look to buy a sword, more weight forward balance will often (not always) make the sword feel heavier and often can affect how well it handles (this is relative as are most comments but depending on intended use and your training or lack there of PoB has more of an impact than you might think.)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2009 3:15:04 GMT
Kokoro: You should also look at PoB when you look to buy a sword, more weight forward balance will often (not always) make the sword feel heavier and often can affect how well it handles (this is relative as are most comments but depending on intended use and your training or lack there of PoB has more of an impact than you might think.) My training = 2 sessions of kendo about 10 years ago while checking out different clubs freshman year of uni. Okay, now this is where I may really be showing my ignorance - but PoB = Point of Balance = Center of Gravity, correct? This may not be the most apt comparison, but I'm an avid pool player with a couple of cues, and depending on how close to the center of gravity I'm gripping the cue it either feels like an extension of my arm or I can really start feeling the weight. 19.5 oz doesn't seem like a lot, but it will start wearing on you after just a couple of games. That's why I was asking about the difference in the center of gravity and why I figured one that was farther down the blade would be more suited to a 2 hand stroke rather than one closer to the cross guard. I guess with the balance point further along the blade it would help generate more centripetal force - thereby getting a faster swing. Now, when I think about a hand and a half grip I think of it's primary use is as a one-handed blade, perhaps with a shield of some sort or a different weapon in the other hand. The thing is, you wouldn't really sacrifice anything but the added power the second hand on the grip could offer you. With the second hand on the grip, I'd imagine that the same kind of stroke has added power behind it, but that's at the sacrifice of reach. That's my impression, anyway, and I guess it could be completely off. To finish my thought and tie this back to the center of gravity concept, I imagine that with one hand a bastard sword would feel slightly heavy, and with two hands it would feel light - but my inclination would be that it would feel more comfortable with the one hand grip and a little too light with the two hand grip. So having said all that I suspect that those thoughts are incorrect. From the reviews I've read it looks as if this type of sword is more comfortable and less awkward with 2 hands than when used with 1 hand.
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Post by shadowhowler on Sept 3, 2009 3:19:57 GMT
Totaly varries... some Hand & a Half swords are mainly single handed weapons that you can go two handed one from time to time... some are mainly two handed weapons that can be used single handed if need be. So many styles...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2009 3:49:58 GMT
Actually going from a one handed grip to two increases reach...not decrease it(generally speaking). But yes two hands increase power...quite significantly.
If it feels good in one hand or two depends on a lot of factors...some of which is based on you (and you won't know those factors until you get your hands on quite a few different swords).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2009 3:31:50 GMT
Actually going from a one handed grip to two increases reach...not decrease it(generally speaking). That seems strange to me. Given a two blades of the same length, with the only difference being that one is a two handed grip and the other is a one handed grip, and given the dynamics of the human body, I don't see how a two handed grip exceeds the reach of the one handed grip. It's a question of balance. I can extend a thrust farther with one hand wielding the blade than I can two handed while maintaining balance. Is there something I'm missing on the physics of the motion that enables the two handed grip to exceed the one handed grip of a sword? On another note, so I said I'm debating on getting a tinker or an atrim, both under the $300 mark. I've heard some comments about the atrim not really being worth it until you hit the $500 mark. Is there any reason for that, because in general the reviews of the atrim swords seem to find little flaws in them. I don't think I'll regret either sword, especially considering it will be my first actual sword purchase. I'll be buying one of them tomorrow or saturday, depending on what time I get off work tomorrow and what is going on that night, but either way by lunch time on saturday I expect to have made the purchase, and no, I'm still not sure which one. From the reviews the tinker seemed better suited for one handed use in spite of the longer grip, but there haven't been any bad reviews of the atrim blades. It might, in the end, come down to a coin flip. In either case I'll let you all know what I got, and I appreciate all the advice and feedback and discussion so far. This has been one of the more interesting weeks I've had recently from all of this.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Sept 4, 2009 3:53:10 GMT
these two companies: Valiant Armory and their Atrim designed models (not the same as an ATrim made by Atrim) and Hanwei and their Tinker designed line (not the same as a sword made by Tinker) are THE two top dogs of the <$300 sword world right now and either one will be a great sword I'm sure.
Might I encourage you (if you are in the 48 contiguous USA states) to go for the Tinker and let me review and sharpen it for you. I do hear the Bastard sword edges still need help but I'd love to be able to confirm that. if you want better cutting Tinker says the bastard sword with fuller was designed to increase that sword's cutting ability.
of course I own a VA practical Longsword and absolutely LOVE it. It's edges WILL be very good, we have plenty of evidence to support that. but some people don't really like using that one single handed so if you REALLY want a sword that is GOOD in one hand maybe the H/T bastard is the way to go.
as for the two handed grip giving you more reach, I too disagree unless you are using the one handed sword behind a big shield and you cannot ever afford to put your sword-side foot in front of your shield side, which is probably the situation Cold Napalm was thinking of. he's a smart guy and knows his stuff. but for sure if you assume a single sword rapier-like stance one arm has more reach but may be worse tactically depending on the situation.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2009 4:44:32 GMT
Tom: You might have just sold the H/T Bastard sword for me. I'm the first to admit that I don't know enough about swords to properly sharpen one, much less give a decent review of one. So it seems like either way it's not an "Atrim" or a "Tinker." These swords are more designed to give you a taste of what the Atrim and Tinker blades can be like while not breaking the bank? In all honesty, that makes plenty of sense to me. So my hope is is that I'll subconciously make the decision while I sleep tonight, but as I said in opening, Tom might have offered the deciding factor.... Okay, you guys are good. So I just went to print out this thread to review tomorrow at work (for some strange reason I can't access this forum while at work... the filter keeps giving me this reason called "weapons"), and I noticed that in the first reply from bart the SH2411 was recommended....
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