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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2009 15:41:50 GMT
It would seem to me that the OP is not talking about a "survival tool" but rather about our preferred weapon in a survival situation (excluding firearms). Which is a different matter altogether. Survival tools Are used for chopping wood and breaking things and digging (in which case, I want a machete with rather broad, sharpened end). But if I am excluding normal "survival" purposes from the use of this weapon, I'm going to have to go with a flanged mace. One with sharpened flanges. It'll handle zombies with less stress than any kind of sword, it'll cut unarmoured persons as well as smash armoured ones. This is good outside-the-box thinking, and it does bear consideration. You are correct that I am focused here on a fighting weapon, rather than a tool. By Tier 4, I would already have a hatchet/tomahawk (from Tier 3)--and likely an axe as well, rounding out my utility needs. That said, the Rat Waki stands up as a nimble and rugged combat weapon, highly forgiving of mistakes and the vagaries of the modern battlefield. My question to you, Taran, is: how do you see your mace proposal addressing fighting against multiple opponents in tight quarters. Is it still effective when the space available for a full swing is highly limited, and when rapid recovery from a miss (or even a hit) is necessary? I don't know much about mace fighting. Also, how do you address the task of quietly dispatching a sentry or scout? Do you supplement with a knife, perhaps? Keep it coming, folks. A lot of good data here,
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2009 16:05:49 GMT
I'm with Ichiban. I'll take the Atrim Tac-Gladius...its one Ric would LOVE. Short leaf-style blade married to micarta scales pinned to a full profile tang. Just under 30" in length and less than 2lbs in total weight, this little beastie can be wielded til they're all DEAD.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2009 16:35:15 GMT
I missed Ichiban's response in the clutter. Thank you, Paladin, for pointing it out. The A-Trim Tactical line is now duking it out with the Rat Waki for top slot. Any word on when they will unveil their "Tac Wak" design? That may put 'em over the edge. By the way, Oogway's "Clark L6" idea is still hovering out there in the distance, and I plan to get one some day, but these $300 and $400 options are much more accessible, and a sword is certainly more useful when you can access it. On a side note: If firearms are allowed, I'll try to get one of these: How did I know this would be a link to a Dillon Aero video? Maybe I'm psychic. Or maybe everyone wants one of those.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2009 16:57:03 GMT
Whoa, slow it down there, Oogway. You're talking to a sword-newbie. Can you say all that again with a lower ratio of Japanese to English? And maybe some links thrown in for good measure? Also, a quick investigation reveals that you aren't too concerned with budgetary constraints. But that's fine! After all, a "survival" item is one to which you trust your life. Expense should be a secondary issue. Addendum: After substantially more investigation, I've translated your recommendations. A solid weapon. I like it. As a “wealthy finance attorney” cost is not an object. My choice should come in easily under $10k. L6 is a steel with the unique property of making banite. No one does this better then Howard Clark. In a process called differential hardening, the cutting edge turned to martensite, a very hard steel with carbide crystals. This is hard but brittle. Normally, the remaining body turns to pearlite, a softer tougher steel. The end result is a hard edge with a shock absorbing body. In a Clark L6, the pearlite body becomes banite instead. This is due to the steel and very exacting heat treatment. Banite is a very tough springy material. A test on a Clark katana pus put in a vice and bent. It took a 135 degree bend prior to steel failure. Howard guarantees that these blades will never bend, chip, or take a set during reasonable use. Because of the toughness, the blade can be made thinner to reduce weight and increase speed. A ko katana is a shorted blade katana, say 23-25 inches with a nearly full-sized handle. Able to be used one or two handed it is short enough to use indoors like the shoto (wakizashi), the secondary sword of the samurai. The difference is the handle length. Shinogi-zukuri is the classic geometry most commonly used in Japanese swords. The geometry includes an “appleseed” shape cross section with the edge having a convex edge support. This means there is a lot of metal structure supporting the cutting edge allowing it to cut heavy targets without failure. I properly shaped blade can cleave a metal helmet of the day. A properly polished and sharpened blade will not need to be re-sharpened for may years, if ever. A chu kissaki is a short “tanto” point. Again, not fragile because of shape, less taper, etc. Tori sori means that the curvature of the blade is equally distributed from the center of the blade allowing for smooth slashing on a shorter blade. Other configurations where used for extra long blades and at different times in history for specific purposes. The curvature would be shallow so the blade had a slashing profile but be straight enough to stab with if needed. The sheath or saya is a weak component of the sword. Make one of carbon fiber. The cord wrap of the handle, Kevlar.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2009 17:05:06 GMT
Very convincing, Oogway. I do like it, and this Howard Clark sounds like quite a smith. What options are out there for having a custom scabbard made for a sword? Is that something you have to do yourself?
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Aug 21, 2009 17:13:49 GMT
I can answer to the Mace questions.
maces are heavy but they are short too and they can be slung around in all sorts of wild directions that would never work for a sword. In my opinion they are much faster than most people give them credit for. and if you want to take a look at a modern offering for toughness and effectiveness take a look at this: /index....ews&thread=7051
all you'd need to do to it is to wrap some hocky-style grip tape on the handle since Windlass' leather is a bit slick. but since the handle is just leather wrapped around the steel shaft of the mace you won't find a tougher weapon. even if it DOES get bent that will have little to no effect on its ability as a weapon.
the mace has the advantage of being blackenable and the paint not diminishing its effectiveness as with a sword and the advantage of being more concealable than a sword for those "avoid the commies/ruskies/gangs" stealth-friendly missions. as for the silent take out: hit them in the head, they'll never utter a sylable.
the mace's disadvantage is in length in the Zombie scenario. you just don't want zombies that close to you even if you have the tool to smash their bones and immobilize them. one scratch from a zombie (in most tales these days) and you are done so when the zombies invade get something longer.
I like my VA AT304s longsword. light enough for one hand, enough hilt to benefit from two, springy-tough, light, fast, cuts through double tatami on thick bamboo like it isn't there, does require a little more finess and may not be so good in-doors.
a Kensei Oni no Tsume would be a good choice for almost all situations. it has all the advantages of the oniyuri except is made to a higher quality.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2009 17:29:57 GMT
...and if you want to take a look at a modern offering for toughness and effectiveness take a look at this: /index....ews&thread=7051 Broken link. Repaired: /index.cgi?board=general&action=modifypost&thread=11848&post=193246 In other news, I can't thank you all enough for the high quality of response to this question. I know we all love zombies, but there have been some serious options presented here for real-life (though admittedly extreme) scenarios. This really excellent. Tom K., thank you for mentioning that Kensei model. I had run across that somewhere before but forgotten about it. I love that design.
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Post by sparky on Aug 21, 2009 18:04:36 GMT
Okay, assuming I am an oil company executive, I would definitely have this-- And here's the link-- www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/late/sword-lady-vivamus.htm . Heck I wouldn't even mind being in the situation described if I could have this sword Am I weird, I have no idea about zombies. Never seen a zombie movie or anything Can you say dream sword. It was also used in a similar situation in the book Glory Road.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2009 18:11:49 GMT
A gladius.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2009 18:15:07 GMT
The Grosse Messer and Oniyuri are both in my top6 of swords I own, I would probably pick the Grosse Messer due to the length. I am not very strong, I look pretty pitiful trying to maneuver a Claymore, but the Grosse Messer seems pretty light to me The Swamp Rat and the A-Trim Tacticals look great, but given a near bottomless sword budget, a pair of Chinese ripping swords, bainite, full tang of course, titanium plated, and the handles would be made of that wonderful grippy rubber stuff that I can't think of the name of right now In my opinion, those are the F-16 of swords, and they are deadly at ANY distance. A definite yes on the carbon fiber scabbards, with titanium on the outside. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2009 18:16:50 GMT
Someone else referred to an A-Trim Tac Gladius, but it doesn't appear on the A-Trim website. Anyone have a link to such a model? Am I weird, I have no idea about zombies. Never seen a zombie movie or anything [/i][/quote] The basic premise of a zombie is a human being reduced to a ravenous, gnashing, single-minded consumer of other human beings. Traditionally, a zombie is "undead," and traditionally his condition is communicable. In the case of undead zombies, he communicates his condition by killing you, at which point the zombifying phenomenon reanimates your corpse. (In the tradition of Night of the Living Dead, the zombifying influence is omnipresent. All viable corpses are raised as soon as they are available, so simply dying, by any means, is sufficient to contribute yourself to the problem.) In the case of biozombies, the zombifying effect is a disease transmitted through a penetrating bite. These premises can be mixed and matched as needed. Additionally, zombies are traditionally slow-moving, physically uncoordinated--the "shambling dead," if you will. The brilliance of the original "Night of the Living Dead" was in the swelling tide of menace it conveyed, as the individually relatively unthreatening zombies multiplied into an inexorable horde. More modern zombie interpretations (usually biozombies) have gone more in the direction of "speed zombies," which are vicious, constantly racing monsters, often highly coordinated, and even occasionally using weapons or tools. In all cases, the zombie only wants one thing, and that is to bee-line at its best speed toward the nearest living, non-zombie human and bite chunks out of it. Due to the undead or pseudo-undead nature of the zombie, it is difficult to kill (to the extent that that word has meaning in context). Traditional beliefs about the undead combine with modern pseudo-scientific treatments of the subject to agree that the only reliable way to put one down is to remove its head from its body or otherwise render its head into something other than a head. For this reason, neck severing and complete destruction of the brain (by blunt trauma or a well-placed bullet) are the recommended methods of dispatching one. Finally, because of the communicable or otherwise inevitable nature of the zombifying process, the initial outbreak of zombyism almost always leads to widespread catastrophe. In most traditions, the disaster spans the globe and results in "the end of the world as we know it." The NotLD scenario (omnipresent zombifying influence) is especially catastrophic, as the world-wide supply of viable dead bodies at any given moment is, of course, vast. NotLD scenarios almost inevitably result in a Zombie Apocalypse, whereupon either human civilization is destroyed, or it continues in a classically "post apocalyptic" form, as in your favorite '80s movies. An excellent depiction of the Zombie Apocalypse in progress can be found in the opening minutes of "Dawn of the Dead," as directed by Zach Snyder. It is a modern, speed zombie interpretation of the NotLD scenario, benefitting from high production value and modern cinema technology. Challenges typically faced during the Zombie Apocalypse:
- Urban survival
- Crazed, desperate neighbors
- Crazed, desperate strangers
- "Lord of the Flies" group psychology
- Fire
- Insufficient ammunition
- Zombies
If you wish to experience a zombie scenario for yourself, the classic videogame exponents of the genre are the Resident Evil series of games, beginning on the original Playstation. While they suffer from an odd control scheme, they quite excellently portray the challenges of a zombie outbreak and convey the looming, oppressive sense of dread that a zombie-infested environment inspires. They also successfully convey the need for a good melee weapon that never runs out of bullets--because they never give you one.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Aug 21, 2009 18:17:01 GMT
hmmm that link didn't work for me either. here's one more try at linking to my mace review: /index.cgi?board=otherweaponreviews&action=display&thread=7051
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2009 18:52:11 GMT
Very convincing, Oogway. I do like it, and this Howard Clark sounds like quite a smith. What options are out there for having a custom scabbard made for a sword? Is that something you have to do yourself? First off, I have no source for kevlar ito. I suggested it for wear-resistance purposes. I have no idea where you could get a carbon fiber saya. If you prefer a realistic idea then use a fiberglass overlay. Saya are made from carved honoki wood that has been aged 10 years. The blank I just bought ran around $60 for a curved split. The actual carving and lacquering runs about $450. This product could skip the lacquer step and anyone who works with fiberglass would be able to do a wrap on one. This would make a strong water resistant product not subject to damage or splitting. Historically, the Japanese re-enforced the says mouth with a rattan wrap or same (ray skin), a very tough product. Fiberglass is cheaper and stronger.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2009 18:56:52 GMT
Good information once again. Thank you. I do rather like the idea of a kevlar or other synthetic wrap. Why settle, right? It seems to me that an all-synthetic scabbard (saya) should be feasible, as well, with a mold of the weapon. It's just a matter of finding a person or company with the right expertise...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2009 19:45:23 GMT
If I could have any sword I wanted, I'd go for a katana forged by one of the greatest smith's of Japan (Masamune preferably due to him being the most belligerent and mythic.) Perhaps a sword of the kodachi variety, said to be worn by nobles for close quarter fights. My impression is that L6 and W2 etc isn't really all that amazing (the general consensus seems that it's pretty overrated), and machetes aren't really my thing. If zombies are merely human flesh, then I think weapons used for centuries or millenia with great success is the best bet.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2009 19:54:04 GMT
The Atrim Tac-Gladius was discontinued...I don't think Gus is doing them anymore, I swear I read that on SFI, so whatever's left is it. The Tac-Gladius was perhaps the most popular of his tactical series...that and the Tac Leafie.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2009 20:03:48 GMT
How does one purchase an Angus Trim Tactical, anyway? He doesn't sell them through his website, nor offer any hints as to how he does sell them. C. Fletcher's site makes no mention of the Tactical line. Also: If zombies are merely human flesh, then I think weapons used for centuries or millenia with great success is the best bet. I quite agree. The Katana design has a long and thoroughly acknowledged history of success. That said, I'm not one to discount modern wisdom. If modern steel chemistry, forging techniques, or geometry have improvements to offer--or can make the same capabilities available at lower cost and with greater ruggedness--then I am game to hear about it. What I like most about the Katana, for survival purposes, is the overall shape. It has a cutting curve, but not so much so that it can't also be used to thrust. And on the thrust, it's long, narrow profile allows deep, easy penetration. Once the kissaki penetrates, the rest of the weapon can follow. The trade-off, of course, is that long, thin objects tend to bend or break. Modern steelcraft seems to have a lot to offer in countering that, though.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2009 20:12:08 GMT
Interesting thread. Hmm... I think I would have to go with a Ko kat, probably the DF. Something through hardened to survive unintentional strikes against objects in the dark. Yes, I think that would do just fine.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2009 20:17:44 GMT
DF? (Y'all are killin' me with the lingo, here. Don't make me start speaking in DoD acronyms.)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2009 20:18:09 GMT
ancient, if any are available, they'd be through Christian Fletcher's site, www.christianfletcher.com as he is now the authorized vendor for authentic Gus Trim blades; if there's any to be had he'd have them, or know of how to get them.
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