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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Aug 17, 2009 0:11:06 GMT
since this seems to be a popular subject here and since watching this video made me cringe a bit here's my submission to the "things to not do with swords topic"
now these guys seem to know a thing or two, but I don't know what they are saying since I can't speak German.
this is one of those things that with proper training MAY be ok but should never be attempted without the training.
nor should even this guy do it if I had sharpened that sword. ;D
what do you think of that?
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Post by wiwingti on Aug 17, 2009 0:22:49 GMT
he said, i,ll sj=how you a couple of things that, choson ninja, my brother, showed me .
mouhahahahaha
these guys are so stupid man,, can't beleive it lol
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Aug 17, 2009 1:58:15 GMT
the thing here is they are reproducing techniques right out of the teachings of the medieval masters. many ancient fechtbuch illustrates techniques where the blade is held bare-handed. so if the ancient masters did it, wouldn't that be about the same thing as saying Musashi was stupid for doing a certain technique because it looks dangerous. I'm not argueing just asking. I'm looking at a Fechtbuch by Talhoffer right now and I'm seeing lots of things like this. so is this dumb? or only dumb for modern people who don't understand the techniques? for instance look at this page of Talhoffer's book and tell me how these guys don't cut themselves unless their swords just aren't all that sharp. mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~db/0002/bsb00020451/images/index.html?id=00020451&fip=152.121.19.61&no=1&seite=50
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2009 2:07:42 GMT
he said, i,ll sj=how you a couple of things that, choson ninja, my brother, showed me . mouhahahahaha these guys are so stupid man,, can't beleive it lol And I suppose, according to you, that all of the medieval masters who taught the life and death skill of longsword combat are just as stupid? I can post tons of examples of grabbing a live blade with a bare hand from historical manuals. But I'll only give a few from Talhoffer. Here, here and here. Tom is correct to warn people against grabbing a live blade if they haven't had any training. But it is a real technique that was used frequently in medieval combat. Just because you don't understand what you are seing doesn't mean it can't be done. Don't expose your ignorance by being a jerk. This is just another example of how things have been going downhill on this forum. Just post a vid and invite everyone to poke fun at it and think of mean things to say.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2009 2:20:25 GMT
Tom, when you grip the blade of a sword, so long as your hand does not slide across the blade, you are fine. The goal is to not have it slide, and to grip it in a manner where you have control and the least amount of pressure along the edge.
Also, a cut hand is less important than his cut throat. Hammaborg has been about this for many years, and if anyone should demonstrate this principal, it would be them.
M.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2009 2:31:57 GMT
I have no issue with the validity of the technique(I know it works and you can grip live blade with no damage to the hand if done correctly). What I do have issue with is swinging a sharp sword around at another person. That last example with the grip is fine. That if you do it properly is safe...it´s like a circus trick...only not because it has real sword fighting applications...but the swinging of the live sword is not acceptable. Yes the technique was done flawlessly on both sides...but that´s not the point. Safety issue isn´t about when things go right now is it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2009 3:28:55 GMT
He was speaking alot, obviously illustrating a heap of things about the demonstration. Anyone speak German cause he might of been citing alot of disclaimers in what they were doing.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Aug 17, 2009 3:56:25 GMT
Tom, when you grip the blade of a sword, so long as your hand does not slide across the blade, you are fine. The goal is to not have it slide, and to grip it in a manner where you have control and the least amount of pressure along the edge. Also, a cut hand is less important than his cut throat. Hammaborg has been about this for many years, and if anyone should demonstrate this principal, it would be them. M. this I know, but here's the problem: I've done a lot of fighting in the SCA and sparring with friends based on things out of translated fecthbuchs by Tobler, Hand, and their ilk. I have no issue with the technique as they present it but, I continually see these things done with non-resistant foes. I can think of so many ways to get that sword to slide and slice his hand it's scary. also I can't help but think of the things you can't control like sweaty palms and fingers. I know when it comes to fighting I sweat like mad as does almost everyone else I've seen. thus the grip will be less sure. it occures to me that this technique is risky to the point where I have to wonder at it's effectiveness unless one wears gloves. let's not even start to talk about the mordhau (spelling?) or murder strike and the shock and vibrations going up and down the blade. EDIT: and once again I find myself agreeing with Cold Napalm. I didn't even mention that because, well I figured it was unneccassary and obvious, but in retrospect it could have used mentioning. in the end, I think that this is proof more of the fact that medieval swords were not kept all that sharp than anything else. to do it with a modern sword makes me wonder how sharp or not-sharp it is, because I certainly know how sharp it COULD be.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2009 5:51:49 GMT
Tom, we are of like mind in your last post.
Also, I've heard of artifacts unearthed from the Thames that were still sharp enough to cut -- and by cut I mean by handing them.
M.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2009 6:54:53 GMT
For what it's worth....
That's a sharp Angus Trim.
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Post by wiwingti on Aug 17, 2009 8:40:51 GMT
he said, i,ll sj=how you a couple of things that, choson ninja, my brother, showed me . mouhahahahaha these guys are so stupid man,, can't beleive it lol And I suppose, according to you, that all of the medieval masters who taught the life and death skill of longsword combat are just as stupid? I can post tons of examples of grabbing a live blade with a bare hand from historical manuals. But I'll only give a few from Talhoffer. Here, here and here. Tom is correct to warn people against grabbing a live blade if they haven't had any training. But it is a real technique that was used frequently in medieval combat. Just because you don't understand what you are seing doesn't mean it can't be done. Don't expose your ignorance by being a jerk. This is just another example of how things have been going downhill on this forum. Just post a vid and invite everyone to poke fun at it and think of mean things to say. well well,the jerk answer that,a lot of things have been done in history/ in the past and it doesn't mean that it was all good things to do. so please don't tell me that it is a normal thing to do (because it have been done in the past) it isn't a good reason to give them credit for that video. these people know what they do,ok,, but, making shows like that and showing things like that make some others that do not know what they do, try it ,and hurt themself or others. this is what i was talking about. same as choson ninja that say to everyone that one time, they'll be able to do the same. and these student, maybe, one day , will try it and hurt themselves real bad. this is what about the subject is no? so, sorry if it hurted your feelings man.
but i was in the subject of the ( what to never do)marc
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Post by shadowhowler on Aug 17, 2009 11:49:25 GMT
I've seen demos like this before. They are obviously well trained and have likely done this demo many, many times before. However... like Tom... I wonder about the use of this technique in battle. In the Demo they are not exerting themselves and sweaty, and the guy with thye sword is working WITH the guy taking it... sort of like how in Aikido (as its mostly done in America) the uke allows you to throw him and perform your technique on him with little to no true resistence. Usefull for learning the technique, but NOT how it would go down in a real world situation. I would think these techniques would be much more likely with with some kinda glove or gauntlet if being performaed against somebody who would resist. However... the demo itself is obviously very well rehearsed and carried out and the guys performing it seem very compotent, so I don't put this anywhere NEAR the catogory of a ChosonNinja vid. However. I DO think anyone watching this video would be follsih to try this themselves.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2009 12:08:42 GMT
Hi Wiwingti. You didn't offend me, but I was suprised about what you posted. I've taken you for a pretty cool guy but almost all of your recent posts have been about how various people are idiots, with you mock laughing at them. It's starting to get old. Also, Hammaborg is one of the most top notch Medieval Martial Arts schools in the world. To suggest that they are doing the same thing as Choson Ninja would be like comparing a professional stunt man jumping out of a building to some silly kids acting unsafe on a trampoline in their back yard. Clearly, we shouldn't try either of those things. But for very different reasons. but i was in the subject of the ( what to never do) [/u] marc[/quote] I guess that's my point. The recent trend on this forum is for someone to post a cautionary video and then everyone joins in with the mean and sarcastic remarks. I'm a little sick of all the flaming that's been going on, and how everybody thinks its the right thing to do.
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Post by YlliwCir on Aug 17, 2009 12:57:21 GMT
I guess that's my point. The recent trend on this forum is for someone to post a cautionary video and then everyone joins in with the mean and sarcastic remarks. I'm a little sick of all the flaming that's been going on, and how everybody thinks its the right thing to do. Not "everybody". I've no problem with the cautionary videos. It's the dogpiling that's unseemly. For this forum anyway. Not necessarily this thread so much as the discussion does have relevance but others. Just my opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2009 13:20:29 GMT
I see that working for the presenters because they are of like mind...they're showing you how it was done, not that it was a good or prudent idea to do it. Before I approached this as a demonstration, I kept wondering- what if the other guy had held onto his sword with a firm grip like I do? I can assure you, no one's going to be able to snatch my sword as easily as he did his partner.
It was mildly entertaining but I think it was just that- entertainment. On a battlefield, or even in a duel, the chances of losing your fingers with a flick of your opponent's wrist is all too real and possible for me to be attempting to do that maneuver, no matter my training.
My .02.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Aug 17, 2009 13:40:29 GMT
I guess that's my point. The recent trend on this forum is for someone to post a cautionary video and then everyone joins in with the mean and sarcastic remarks. I'm a little sick of all the flaming that's been going on, and how everybody thinks its the right thing to do. Not "everybody". I've no problem with the cautionary videos. It's the dogpiling that's unseemly. For this forum anyway. Not necessarily this thread so much as the discussion does have relevance but others. Just my opinion. and this is EXACTLY my point. this is why I was trying to convince people to let up on the Choson videos. you see the Choson videos are so stupid as to be undefendable, unlike this guy, and what happens then is he (choson) is such an easy mark that a sort of feeding frenzy occurs. the worst thing is that we all get caught up in it so eagerly we don't even realize what we are doing. so, let us al please settle down with the bashing people please.
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Post by wiwingti on Aug 17, 2009 16:23:08 GMT
Hi Wiwingti. You didn't offend me, but I was suprised about what you posted. I've taken you for a pretty cool guy but almost all of your recent posts have been about how various people are idiots, with you mock laughing at them. It's starting to get old. Also, Hammaborg is one of the most top notch Medieval Martial Arts schools in the world. To suggest that they are doing the same thing as Choson Ninja would be like comparing a professional stunt man jumping out of a building to some silly kids acting unsafe on a trampoline in their back yard. Clearly, we shouldn't try either of those things. But for very different reasons. but i was in the subject of the ( what to never do) [/u] marc[/quote] I guess that's my point. The recent trend on this forum is for someone to post a cautionary video and then everyone joins in with the mean and sarcastic remarks. I'm a little sick of all the flaming that's been going on, and how everybody thinks its the right thing to do.[/quote] no problem man, i am what i am. i won't argue in here. if you have anything to (try to resolve with me) my PMs are open.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2009 17:07:45 GMT
Well I'm not too knowledgeable in the area of WMA but I can say I've seen demonstrations of grasping a sword blade with your bare hand in JSA and CSA at a few martial arts conventions and seminars I've been to. Not saying its something I'd ever consider trying myself but the people who did that are very highly skilled and respected individuals in the martial arts world. They've said that such techniques existed historically and were, in certain instances, effective too.
That said I believe that such things were taught historically throughout the world. Of course I believe that the chances of your average swordsman pulling something like that off is slim to none without losing fingers or at least losing use of a hand. Perhaps someone very skilled and highly trained might be able to.
I won't disregard it as having been real and historically taught techniques. I will though disregard it as something I'd never try to do myself unless it was either my hand or my neck and even then I'd consider it with a certain amount of trepidation.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2009 18:34:39 GMT
Having done both WMA and JSA I feel that I can weigh in on this one. Many of the longsword techniques work on the basis of the lesser of two evils, what I mean by this is that no matter what you do in certain situations you are going to take a hit or get cut, it is just a matter of controlling your opponents blade so you take the least damage and he takes the most. Now personally, I feel that the guys that train at this school in Germany are some of the best in the world and their demonstration is not a case of "anyone can do this" or "that it has battlefield applications." As you will notice from many of the friezes these techniques are used in duels, in a one on one situation. The thing about WMA is that it teaches two methods of combat, battlefield application and duel application, it is the same thing in JSA as well. Now I'm not saying that dueling techniques can't be used on the battlefield and vice versa but some of them are designed specifically for one role or another. I know how to grab a blade safely and use it against my opponent, but would I ever do it? No, I wouldn't because there are far more effective and safe techniques, especially when you have been taught how to lock up the opponents blade or use your blade in such a way that the enemy is at a disadvantage. I have seen effective blade grabbing techniques in chinese martial arts, where you catch a thrusting blade in both hands and then manipulate the blade but I'd never do it, better to step off line and strike at the extended wrist or deflect the blade by manipulating the opponents wrist. I think the obvious disclaimer on this one, is please don't try this at home or anywhere else for that matter. These men are professionals and they are doing it as a demonstration. This is a very good video though, thank you
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Post by wiwingti on Aug 17, 2009 18:38:47 GMT
thank you bloodwrait for your information about it man. i better like that explaination
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