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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2009 20:59:44 GMT
does anyone know when its coming out?
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Post by sicheah on Aug 4, 2009 0:53:41 GMT
I personally don't know for sure but I was hoping that it might come out either late this year or early next year. Perhaps a Hanwei rep could help ya out.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2009 22:54:23 GMT
/index.cgi?board=chineseswords&action=display&thread=12549
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2009 3:32:14 GMT
so no updates yet tre?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2009 3:21:15 GMT
I sure wish I could find out something about it. It is driving my nuts with anticipation. A lot of the guys here prefer the katana for cutting practice, and I can somewhat agree with their reasoning. The thing is, there are some of us, like myself, and you, who want a cutting jian. I am a taijiquan practitioner, and would prefer a Chinese sword. I have a very good jian that I purchased from Garrett, but, I guess you could call me greedy, I want more. The jian I have cuts fine, but it is a shorter model. Just like the samurai, who carry different sizes per application, I feel that a shorter sword is for close quarters, and a longer sword is for the field. If you find out anything before I do, please let me know. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2009 16:01:57 GMT
And again, I will mention this - the proper sizing for a Jian according to the CMC taiji tradition as coming from Sifus Don Schurman, Hal Mosher, Lee Scheele, and some others I've made the aquaintance of is as follows (forgive my typing, painkillers....) "The pommel of the sword with the tip resting on the ground should reach the dantian, the handle should have a long enough grip for a single hand with room to wrap a second hand around the pommel, and the balance of the blade should be one hand's breadth down the blade."
That means for me at 5'9" I need a Jian with a 32" blade with a combined guard, handle, and pommel length of app 7" Hopefully, this helps.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2009 2:31:03 GMT
Thanks Boyle, That is very important for some who are unfamiliar with sizing a jian. what would be great is if they wind up making the cutting jian in different sizes like the practical taichi sword from PC... only the rodell model will be more practical.
Dont forget that Boyle posted some info about proper holding of the jian and some forms info in other threads.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2009 4:39:47 GMT
The 'sizing of jian' is a modern phenomenon. Most antiques measured 29" on average from rear of guard (where it meets the handle) to the tip of the blade. Longer blades would have to be very thin or they would generate a lot of torque on one's wrist.
Actual historically accurate blades weigh quite a bit more than the wushu steel jian that many of the Tai Chi schools use nowadays. A 32" blade was near the top end of size for antique jian and could be quite heavy. I have one example that isn't but it's very thin...almost the missing link between an actual fighting jian and the modern lung chuan wall hangers most practioners use. This example is also quite soft in the steel...likely not a sword designed for a real fight.
Also note that Duan Jian were in some ways more common than the full length ones. Swords back then were weapons, and in narrow city streets shorter ones were handier to carry and use.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2009 19:04:30 GMT
The 'sizing of jian' is a modern phenomenon. Most antiques measured 29" on average from rear of guard (where it meets the handle) to the tip of the blade. Longer blades would have to be very thin or they would generate a lot of torque on one's wrist. Actual historically accurate blades weigh quite a bit more than the wushu steel jian that many of the Tai Chi schools use nowadays. A 32" blade was near the top end of size for antique jian and could be quite heavy. I have one example that isn't but it's very thin...almost the missing link between an actual fighting jian and the modern lung chuan wall hangers most practioners use. This example is also quite soft in the steel...likely not a sword designed for a real fight. Also note that Duan Jian were in some ways more common than the full length ones. Swords back then were weapons, and in narrow city streets shorter ones were handier to carry and use. Actually, given that human beings as a species have grown taller over the centuries it would make sense that antique Jian would be sized for shorter statures. Also, one has to figure in the variance for racial body types. Since, Asians as a general rule of thumb, smaller in stature than Caucasians, or people of African descent again, the shorter swords make sense, even using modern sizing guidelines. At 5'9" I am average height for an adult male in the modern America - however, I would have been considered quite tall in 11th century China. Therefore, even then I would have been found using a longer sword than my shorter peers. Extrapolating from a type XV Euro sword, which also features a diamond or lenticular cross section and roughly similar amounts of distal and profile taper in the blade (Euro guys feel free to correct me here if I am wrong) the weights of the longer Jian would not be that much greater. If 28-29" Jians fall in the 1.5 - 2lb range than 32-34" jians would run from 2 - 2.75 lbs which is not that great an increase in weight or in the amount of wrist strength required to wield one effectively. The can be seen in product specs from companies like Jin-Shi, Huano Forge, Zheng Wu, and others who do make functional Jians. I also agree with Sitre that it would be great if Hawei decides to offer their "cutting jian" in multiple sizes so the people can have properly blades. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2009 19:39:48 GMT
Actually, given that human beings as a species have grown taller over the centuries it would make sense that antique Jian would be sized for shorter statures. Also, one has to figure in the variance for racial body types. Since, Asians as a general rule of thumb, smaller in stature than Caucasians, or people of African descent again, the shorter swords make sense, even using modern sizing guidelines. At 5'9" I am average height for an adult male in the modern America - however, I would have been considered quite tall in 11th century China. Therefore, even then I would have been found using a longer sword than my shorter peers. Extrapolating from a type XV Euro sword, which also features a diamond or lenticular cross section and roughly similar amounts of distal and profile taper in the blade (Euro guys feel free to correct me here if I am wrong) the weights of the longer Jian would not be that much greater. If 28-29" Jians fall in the 1.5 - 2lb range than 32-34" jians would run from 2 - 2.75 lbs which is not that great an increase in weight or in the amount of wrist strength required to wield one effectively. The can be seen in product specs from companies like Jin-Shi, Huano Forge, Zheng Wu, and others who do make functional Jians. I also agree with Sitre that it would be great if Hawei decides to offer their "cutting jian" in multiple sizes so the people can have properly blades. LPBoyle, I have to agree with Gundoggy. The argument that humans have grown over the centuries, does not hold water in this case. I hope I can explain why. The antiques that Gundoggy refers to are as recent as 19th century. Going back to the 11th century isn't relevant. In fact, swords from the Han and Tang dynasties were larger than 19th century examples. That completely disproves the oft used "people have gotten bigger" argument. The change in use dictated the size evolution.European swords are entirely different. You cannot compare a Type XV to a jian. Not even close. Euro swords are balanced closer to the hilt with a pommel so they can be heavier. It's not the weight that makes it difficult to use. Rather it's the torque on our wrist. There will be significant leverage disadvantages in using a Chinese jian that is too long. I am taller than you at 5'11". I also have a giant forearm from playing with swords too much (I have difficulty rolling shirt sleeves up). I use a 1.9 lb, 29" blade measured from where the handle meets the guard. Take it from me that there are more variables than you have considered which are not all relevant. Hope this helps. I know that "sizing" is a touchy issue and it won't be put to death anytime soon. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2009 20:41:55 GMT
My own Tai Chi teacher talked about 'sizing swords'. While my teacher is very skilled and knowledgeable, many teachers have not handled a real jian. The thin, whippy swords most people use today are NOT real weapons.
Also going from 2lbs. to 2.75 lbs is a LOT of weight added. The only 1.5 lb jian Garrett and I measured was my duan jian at 24" blade. My 28" blade jian measure about 1.75lb. 30" which seems to be the standard 'modern jian average' is close to 2 lbs.
Once again weight varies depending on geometry of the blade. The late Qing jian with large ace of spades guard and long wide blades are quite thin. Also note, at this point in history the jian was being superseded by firearms and many examples of jian of this form were not as well constructed as earlier real fighting jian. Some were quite soft of steel as well. I do have one example with good hardened edges but blade is thin and may be more vulnerable to bending. Compare this to earlier Qing jian that were a little shorter, narrower blade , but thicker blade with diamond profile that are very stiff rigid and robust enough to take parries.
I do recall talking to Scott Rodell about his cutting jian and the profile is much thinner than the antique example he sent them originally. Apparently the thinning also was to increase cutting efficiency of mats and such which the historical clamshell his less efficient than flat diamond. So thinner clamshell, more efficient.
If this is the case the longer jian may be manageable but will be thinner. The problem is some modern makers will do the longer blades but not adjust blade geometry to compensate weight/torque. EVen my giant monster jian at 2.7lbs has a thinner blade than my shorter jian. The shorter jian with their thicker blade has a rigid solid feel to them that I prefer if I were to go to a real fight.
Don't think I don't like long jian!!! My favorite antique is almost 31" in blade, with a wide fullered blade that almost resembles a viking sword!!!!(very unusual jian) However it is a tiny bit more whippy than my short ones....though it still has a very well treated edge.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2009 21:31:36 GMT
Ok, I do stand corrected. I have been using a 28" practice Jian myself and while practical for use in a small area, I find it feels much too short for me. I am still looking at 32" as a decent size for my own personal use, but it seems from what has been said sizing is very much a personal issue on the part of the swordsman. I did some more looking around at sizing guidelines on line and most of what I found simply refers to the modern Dragon Well Wushu blades such as this quote from the Tai Chi Superstore at Drtaichi.com
"28in blade: this size good for the height 5 feet to 5.2 feet; 29in blade: this size is good for the height 5.3 to 5.5 feet; 30in blade: this size is good for the height 5.5 to 5.7 feet; 30.5in blade: this size is good for the height 5.6 to 5.8 feet; 31in blade: this size is good for the height 5.8 to 6 feet; 32.7in blade: this size is good for the height 6 to 6.2 feet; 34.5in blade: this size is good for the height over 6.2 feet. " Since they promote modern Wushu blades pretty much exclusively I will have to humbly bow my head and defer to those who do know more about true antique jian. My apologies for arguing.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2009 21:54:10 GMT
I humbly bow my head to you LP for bringing the topic to light.
Please; never apologize for "arguing". Other practitioners now have this thread as a resource and I'm sure some people learned something from our discussion.
Jian can feel short, but once you use accurately weighted and balanced swords in freeplay or paired drills, it will change the way you see things forever.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2009 0:06:44 GMT
LP Boyle,
no apologies necessary!!! ALL of us started with wushu steel wall hangers with ideas of length from the same places!!! As well note that the longer thinner blades DID exist, I do have a 32" antique with very thin blade...to bad steel is soft...they just weren't the common standard. Fact is jian were quite varied in length and weight depending of purpose it was designed for...thinner blades do cut unarmored foes in cloth better than a beefier blade, which is better for striking armored foes...remember back then armor was commonly used!!!
It's best to think of swords like pistols. There's compact pistols, medium pistols, large pistols. All different calibers. Which one is best? Answer is what is your primary usage. Scott Rodell told me to practice with a variety of jian of all length and weights to get an appreciation of technique with varying swords. Duan Jian (short jian) were popular just as compact pistols are popular...easier to carry and depending on where you use it, handier to use. For example if one were to use a jian for home defense, a 24" blade would be much more handier in a hallway than a 32" blade.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2009 6:13:31 GMT
Very interesting, but for us metric guys, would it be too much to ask to also quote in grams and kilograms and cms?
Thanks!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2009 6:26:35 GMT
If I remember right, the jian that I bought from Garrett has a 27" blade. I actually find it perfect for me. The shorter blade is perfect for cutting or working forms. I will have to agree with what Garrett stated about length. The hybrid jian that I made is rather long, but that was something that I wanted to do.
If I am correct, there is a jian style, mantis, that uses a longer jian. It also has a longer handle. Cold steel used to sell a two-handed jian that looks similar. As much as I like my hybrid, I still find the one I got from Garrett to be my favorite. With the mixed style that I use, the length is actually to my advantage. I never was very interested in a long sword. One advantage that a shorter sword has is recovery time. I am not even speaking of weitght, just length. Any one that is familiar with grinding wheels knows about feet-per-second. A large grinding wheel has more feet per second, but turns slower due to its diameter, or length from the center. When a sword moves, your body is the center, and the arc that it draws at the distance from your body is the diameter. Thus my analogy. A taiji practitioner realizes that strength is not as important as concentration. with a lighter, somewhat shorter sword, strength is not as much an issue, so concentration, and technique would be the important thing.
Also being a scholars sword, rather than a battlefield weapon, one would want it less cumbersome. Therefore it could be carried in a different manner, and deployed in closer areas. Imagine trying to use an english long sword in your home to thwart bandits invading your house in a day when guns were yet unknown. So yes, I would have to choose the shorter.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2009 7:05:24 GMT
Very interesting, but for us metric guys, would it be too much to ask to also quote in grams and kilograms and cms? Thanks! Here is a sword that I reviewed to give you an idea.... the jian that I got from Jin-Shi.com was a production model with a 70cm blade, which is slightly over 27 inches. (close to 27 1/2 actually). The math is easy... multiply the inches by 2.54. or you can divide cm by 2.54 to get inches. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2009 11:48:37 GMT
Very interesting, but for us metric guys, would it be too much to ask to also quote in grams and kilograms and cms? Thanks! Sorry mate, I tend to forget that only the US uses ASE measurements. As Sirt5re said you multiply inches by 2.54 to get cm, and Kilos... (file-new tab-google-metric conversion) 1 pound = 0.45359237 kilograms so multiply by .45 for a good approximation. Example I weigh 165 lbs so I would weigh app 74.25 kg. My Height at 5'8" would be app 175 cm or 1.75 m. Unfortunately, learning metric conversion isn't exactly stressed in the American educational system (yeah, yeah, I know my country is a bit insular, get over it.) So most of us only think in terms of American measurements. The Canadian guys are probably using ASE measurements more out of habit from talking with those of us in the US. As for the arguing, I apologized to say that I wasn't arguing with those more in the know to set myself up as some kind of expert, I'm anything but. You are actually seeing in these posts more of my own thought process as I try and figure this stuff out without the benefit of an instructor I can immediately turn to and question. While there are several taiji instructors I e-mail and question on a regular basis, I'm am not, nor have I ever been enrolled in a school or class for taiji. I have to learn independently from books and videos and get insights and correction wherever and whenever I can. The instructors I mentioned were the ones who taught me the rule of thumb for sizing in the style of taiji I am studying, but I only know them online. This does at times make learning difficult, hence, why I haunt this forum. So again, thanks for correcting my ignorance guys. And seriously off topic, anybody besides Sirtre on Facebook? I can be found under my full name Liam Boyle. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2009 22:47:43 GMT
I was abele to speak face to face with a cas hanwei rep this weekend at smoky mountain knife works and asked about the cutting jian and was told possible january or february of 2010 and that's pretty much all she could say at this time.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2009 6:13:17 GMT
If I remember right, the jian that I bought from Garrett has a 27" blade. I actually find it perfect for me. The shorter blade is perfect for cutting or working forms. I will have to agree with what Garrett stated about length. The hybrid jian that I made is rather long, but that was something that I wanted to do. If I am correct, there is a jian style, mantis, that uses a longer jian. It also has a longer handle. Cold steel used to sell a two-handed jian that looks similar. As much as I like my hybrid, I still find the one I got from Garrett to be my favorite. With the mixed style that I use, the length is actually to my advantage. I never was very interested in a long sword. One advantage that a shorter sword has is recovery time. I am not even speaking of weitght, just length. Any one that is familiar with grinding wheels knows about feet-per-second. A large grinding wheel has more feet per second, but turns slower due to its diameter, or length from the center. When a sword moves, your body is the center, and the arc that it draws at the distance from your body is the diameter. Thus my analogy. A taiji practitioner realizes that strength is not as important as concentration. with a lighter, somewhat shorter sword, strength is not as much an issue, so concentration, and technique would be the important thing. Also being a scholars sword, rather than a battlefield weapon, one would want it less cumbersome. Therefore it could be carried in a different manner, and deployed in closer areas. Imagine trying to use an english long sword in your home to thwart bandits invading your house in a day when guns were yet unknown. So yes, I would have to choose the shorter. You definitely have some good points there, but one thing I wanted to point out was that Taiji and other so called internal styles like Bagua also favor longer, slightly heavier blades. It's not just for the reach; Bagua and Taiji swordsmen actually relied on their internal strength training (pretty much just using their body efficiently) to handle the weight of the weapon and wield it smoothly. And the longer, heavier jian would have a better chance against other heavy weapons used by opponents, which was what jian users had to contend with much of the time. So I find it interesting that you consider taiji fighters to prefer a shorter blade; from what I've seen, they usually go for the longer ones. Of course, there are always going to be exceptions, and i know of at least one taiji practitioner who uses a "standard" length 27 inch blade. Also, the jian was at one time a battlefield weapon. It did lose favor to the dao later on, but the ones used for war were longer and heavier than the scholar's version. In fact, the scholar's versions of jian, or wen jian as they later began to be called, started becoming really light and highly decorated, making them rather impractical for any combat use, even for just civilian self defense. Of course, a martial artist wouldn't be caught with such a weapon, and even if they were using a lighter jian, there would still be a sufficient enough weight to it for proper cut and thrust techniques, which the jian is used for. The one I got from garret is patterned more after the war style variant, though I can still use it as nimbly as I could the more well known civilian version. Personally I prefer longer blades, but nothing longer than 32 inches. That's going into two handed jian territory, and I'm not versed in that kind of fighting... not yet anyway.  I do plan on getting another sword from Garret, but I think I'll go 30 inches one that one, since the handle is going to be smaller than the one I have now, and I don't want the blade being too blade heavy; making it 32 inches would definitely push it in that direction. PS: LP Boyle, I'm on Facebook also. |
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I do plan on getting another sword from Garret, but I think I'll go 30 inches one that one, since the handle is going to be smaller than the one I have now, and I don't want the blade being too blade heavy; making it 32 inches would definitely push it in that direction.
Nov 1, 2024 0:13:58 GMT
Nov 1, 2024 0:13:58 GMT
