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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2009 14:00:14 GMT
You definitely have some good points there, but one thing I wanted to point out was that Taiji and other so called internal styles like Bagua also favor longer, slightly heavier blades. It's not just for the reach; Bagua and Taiji swordsmen actually relied on their internal strength training (pretty much just using their body efficiently) to handle the weight of the weapon and wield it smoothly. And the longer, heavier jian would have a better chance against other heavy weapons used by opponents, which was what jian users had to contend with much of the time. So I find it interesting that you consider taiji fighters to prefer a shorter blade; from what I've seen, they usually go for the longer ones. Of course, there are always going to be exceptions, and i know of at least one taiji practitioner who uses a "standard" length 27 inch blade. Also, the jian was at one time a battlefield weapon. It did lose favor to the dao later on, but the ones used for war were longer and heavier than the scholar's version. In fact, the scholar's versions of jian, or wen jian as they later began to be called, started becoming really light and highly decorated, making them rather impractical for any combat use, even for just civilian self defense. Of course, a martial artist wouldn't be caught with such a weapon, and even if they were using a lighter jian, there would still be a sufficient enough weight to it for proper cut and thrust techniques, which the jian is used for. The one I got from garret is patterned more after the war style variant, though I can still use it as nimbly as I could the more well known civilian version. Personally I prefer longer blades, but nothing longer than 32 inches. That's going into two handed jian territory, and I'm not versed in that kind of fighting... not yet anyway.  I do plan on getting another sword from Garret, but I think I'll go 30 inches one that one, since the handle is going to be smaller than the one I have now, and I don't want the blade being too blade heavy; making it 32 inches would definitely push it in that direction. PS: LP Boyle, I'm on Facebook also. Sage, one important thing to remember is that there is no "standard length". The best we can do is group antiques into duan jian and chang jian. I'm sure the line is blurred in between as well. I think a better grouping for scholar sword and martial sword is village made weapon vs. the type made for a more sophisticated user. Yours is a Han dynasty jian that's all; not a war style variant. To me, it doesn't matter what other tai chi players are using. I will study from the real users and learn from the weapons they left behind and bring them to today's practitioners. Sometimes people tell me "but my sifu said ABC". My reply is that the weapons I'm trying to recreate were probably used by your teacher's teacher's teacher...and so on. I humbly think that people shouldn't have preferences until they have had the chance to handle a good number of decently made swords and have gone through some paired drills at least. How can one say X is good for me when they have never even handled Y or done paired drills to gain the basic knowledge of maneuvering the jian against an opponent? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2009 18:05:50 GMT
Sage, one important thing to remember is that there is no "standard length". The best we can do is group antiques into duan jian and chang jian. I'm sure the line is blurred in between as well. I think a better grouping for scholar sword and martial sword is village made weapon vs. the type made for a more sophisticated user. Yours is a Han dynasty jian that's all; not a war style variant. To me, it doesn't matter what other tai chi players are using. I will study from the real users and learn from the weapons they left behind and bring them to today's practitioners. Sometimes people tell me "but my sifu said ABC". My reply is that the weapons I'm trying to recreate were probably used by your teacher's teacher's teacher...and so on. I humbly think that people shouldn't have preferences until they have had the chance to handle a good number of decently made swords and have gone through some paired drills at least. How can one say X is good for me when they have never even handled Y or done paired drills to gain the basic knowledge of maneuvering the jian against an opponent? I'd better explain myself. When I said standard length, I had put the word "standard" in quotes since i knew there wasn't really one. Rather, it was simply to denote that most jian I tend to see these days is at that 27 inch length as some kind of default. Of course, one can see the same variant made with several different length blades, but I notice when one is making a Jian with only one blade length, 27 inches is usually what they pick. Or should I be saying 70 cm? Anyway, that's all I really meant when I said "standard length". The "war sword" and "scholar sword" (wu jian, wen jian) groupings could definitely be replaced by some better ones, but from what I've read and what I've been taught, those were the terms given to me, and they had particular characteristics. It's true the sword I have is just a Han dynasty variant; however, Han dynasty swords were generally made for use on the battlefield (as well as a symbol of one's authority), hence my calling it a war sword. My sword also tends to be considered on the heavy side by some people that have handled it; many tend to be used to jian weighing around the 1.5 lbs range, sometimes even lighter if they use contemporary wushu swords. Mine is 2 lbs 3 ounces. Of course, jian were made for a variety of reasons later on, such as for dancers, or decoration, and they'd have a variety of handling characteristics and weights. The different varieties were probably more dependent on who it was made for, and where it was made, so your grouping into duan jian and chang jian is probably a better one. Generally though, I was taught the wu jian, wen gen grouping for better or for worse... probably worse. My thoughts on swords used by taiji stylists also came from what was taught and read about. I kept hearing over and over again about the jian ideally being measured from one;s feet to one's sternum, and bagua players tend to use some pretty long blades... even using two handed versions in one hand. Still, you pointed out that there really is no standard blade length, and these things end up being decided by personal preference anyway. Having to decided between what's thought of as general knowledge and what you just said... I think I'll go with what you just said. I trust your information more. I agree with you that one should handle a variety of jian before they have a preference on what works for them. That's how I ended up with my preference for longer jian though; when I handled jian with blades under 30 inches (76 cm), it just felt wrong. Sure it was fast, but something about them just felt off. From 30 to 32 inches (76 cm to 81 cm), it felt just right, and I could perform the techniques without feeling off balance, as well as against other people. Anything longer than that though threw me right off if I was trying to use it with one hand. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2009 2:07:54 GMT
Regarding length, it's best we set some standards of measurements.
Proper measurement of blade length is from base of blade or in a mounted blade where the rear of the guard meets the handle grip. Measuring from front of guard is inconsistent depending on length/size of the guard.
The whole Wu Jian, Wen Jian is a bit of a misnomer. There were battle worthy jian of ALL sizes and weights. Some Duan Jian weighed 2 lbs or more to compensate for their short lengths. Some older books I read classify Wen Jian as having rounded tips...this is an artifact of multiple polishings!!!!
In talking with Scott Rodell, his take on a 'Scholar's sword' is one that may not be of high quality treated steel blade which was irrelevant to a scholar who typically hung it in his room. (Historical Wallhanger!!!!). This could be many sizes.
Once you examine antiques and talk to some true experts in the field: Scott Rodell, Peter Dekker and Philip Tom, you realize how much of the lore about Chinese Swords regarded as gospel today is just bunk.
It's not the fault of many Sifu. Remember with the ascendancy of the firearm, fighting with a sword became irrelevant, even martial arts lost some of its relevance. The training pattern today of form then application goes against traditional training (this is for Tai Chi) of post training, loosening training, learning single moves, its applications and variations, before learning a new move. After one learns the usage of every move and is proficient, form is taught almost to serve as a reference book of the style's techniques. My sifu told me this was traditional but in today's world, most students would get bored by 1 or 2 years post training and leave.
The deemphasis on practical use of sword in the 20th Century means many teachers today are third or more generations with NO real training in practical application of sword. Just the form. No blame or judgment. That's just the card history dealt CMA. With the chaos of the WWII and Communist takeover of China, many traditions were lost.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2009 2:12:28 GMT
I'd better explain myself. When I said standard length, I had put the word "standard" in quotes since i knew there wasn't really one. Rather, it was simply to denote that most jian I tend to see these days is at that 27 inch length as some kind of default. Of course, one can see the same variant made with several different length blades, but I notice when one is making a Jian with only one blade length, 27 inches is usually what they pick. Or should I be saying 70 cm? Anyway, that's all I really meant when I said "standard length". The "war sword" and "scholar sword" (wu jian, wen jian) groupings could definitely be replaced by some better ones, but from what I've read and what I've been taught, those were the terms given to me, and they had particular characteristics. It's true the sword I have is just a Han dynasty variant; however, Han dynasty swords were generally made for use on the battlefield (as well as a symbol of one's authority), hence my calling it a war sword. My sword also tends to be considered on the heavy side by some people that have handled it; many tend to be used to jian weighing around the 1.5 lbs range, sometimes even lighter if they use contemporary wushu swords. Mine is 2 lbs 3 ounces. Of course, jian were made for a variety of reasons later on, such as for dancers, or decoration, and they'd have a variety of handling characteristics and weights. The different varieties were probably more dependent on who it was made for, and where it was made, so your grouping into duan jian and chang jian is probably a better one. Generally though, I was taught the wu jian, wen gen grouping for better or for worse... probably worse. My thoughts on swords used by taiji stylists also came from what was taught and read about. I kept hearing over and over again about the jian ideally being measured from one;s feet to one's sternum, and bagua players tend to use some pretty long blades... even using two handed versions in one hand. Still, you pointed out that there really is no standard blade length, and these things end up being decided by personal preference anyway. Having to decided between what's thought of as general knowledge and what you just said... I think I'll go with what you just said. I trust your information more. I agree with you that one should handle a variety of jian before they have a preference on what works for them. That's how I ended up with my preference for longer jian though; when I handled jian with blades under 30 inches (76 cm), it just felt wrong. Sure it was fast, but something about them just felt off. From 30 to 32 inches (76 cm to 81 cm), it felt just right, and I could perform the techniques without feeling off balance, as well as against other people. Anything longer than that though threw me right off if I was trying to use it with one hand. Ah I see it now. I missed the quotation marks. My mistake. My classifications only include weapons. I totally disregard dancing and decoration swords as they are something else entirely as we both know.  Your Han jian is not heavy at all. It balances wonderfully thanks to the distal and profile taper. Of course, I'm a bit biased.  Handling the swords is one aspect, but it is essential to work with a partner to get a sense of how to maneuver the blade length while crossing swords. I didn't even have the partner aspect until quite recently. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2009 15:47:24 GMT
Sage, one important thing to remember is that there is no "standard length". The best we can do is group antiques into duan jian and chang jian. I'm sure the line is blurred in between as well. And why wouldn't it be? It is for Euro swords. Longsword and arming sword blend together in the middle. We just call that middle the "Bastard" swords or "Hand-and-a-half." |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2009 22:40:12 GMT
What I was always taught about jian single or two handed is that it is dependent more on the length of your arm than on a "standard length." I was taught that for a perfect length single handed sword you hold the sword by the hilt and the point should end just below the armpit. Also the whole "standard length" thing is silly, we see the same prolifegration in japanese swords that just about every production sword is between 27-28" and as I was taught that is also dependent on the person wielding it rather than a "standard length." When it comes to jian I also find that body type plays a big part in it as well.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2009 0:34:01 GMT
What I was always taught about jian single or two handed is that it is dependent more on the length of your arm than on a "standard length." I was taught that for a perfect length single handed sword you hold the sword by the hilt and the point should end just below the armpit. Such a rule of thumb doesn't really make sense to my eyes. I'm 5'9" and if I based my Jian selection on that, I'd be wielding a 24" sword. If that. And it's not like I have freakishly short arms, either. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2009 11:49:49 GMT
What I was always taught about jian single or two handed is that it is dependent more on the length of your arm than on a "standard length." I was taught that for a perfect length single handed sword you hold the sword by the hilt and the point should end just below the armpit. Such a rule of thumb doesn't really make sense to my eyes. I'm 5'9" and if I based my Jian selection on that, I'd be wielding a 24" sword. If that. And it's not like I have freakishly short arms, either. earlobe. but that is just one school of thought. by that teaching, mine is an inch short, et i sill concur with garrett, that he practitioner should use what he is comfortable with, and can use proficiently. a skilled swordsman, lets say a samurai, can use a wakazashi and defeat an oponent that bears a katana. many othe examples are available. in a parable of manhood... its not the lenght of the sword, but how you use it. LOL. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2009 21:13:21 GMT
... in a parable of manhood... its not the lenght of the sword, but how you use it. LOL. Yeah, well, it takes a Long time to cut a heart out with a penknife... |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2009 11:04:00 GMT
thanks chuckles,thats the best info ive got so far!we will just have to wait n see.
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I do plan on getting another sword from Garret, but I think I'll go 30 inches one that one, since the handle is going to be smaller than the one I have now, and I don't want the blade being too blade heavy; making it 32 inches would definitely push it in that direction.
