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Post by ShooterMike on Jun 17, 2009 0:51:28 GMT
Cutting Practice With 2 SwordsI have been working a bit on learning how to handle 2 swords. I did a little "internet research" and then had discussion and a little hands-on with Bill Tsafa about how his Knight in the SCA uses two swords. The results are a bit of a bastardization of various two-sword disciplines. Here it is. Please don't laugh too loud or smirk too hard? But helpful criticism is always welcome and actively sought after. The swords used are a pair of AT1557s with custom hilts. The first came from Angus Trim's "Pay Off The Damn Machine Sale" and the second was obtained 2nd hand from our own Shadowhowler Sean. His loss. My gain. Hee, hee, hee. ;D I call them "One" and "Two" based on the number of central risers on the grips.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2009 3:11:05 GMT
Fun to watch and certainly skillfull cutting, but what made you want to try cutting with two swords in the first place?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2009 3:17:49 GMT
Laughter? That was awesome! If you'd like some constructive criticism, well, you probably noticed that sometimes you touched your swords together... this probably has pros and cons from a defensive point of view but also might nick your swords.
I am still in awe of your cutting, I can't do anything like it with European style swords.
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Post by shadowhowler on Jun 17, 2009 5:56:12 GMT
Holy crap Mike... You sure do know how to make a man feel bad about parting with a sword... my god. It looks SO much cooler now with the blackened cross and pommel and green grip. If you ever decide to not keep both, I want first option on getting that one back, it looks sweet. ;D You sure can make it cut a lot better then I did... I need some serious practice. As far as crittique goes... as already pointed out you want to try and avoid banging your swords together as much as possible. Most of my two weapon training comes from escrima, and sometimes your sticks make contact with each other, and thats ok, because they are wood and really just bounce off one another without harm... but you could see some blade scratching with that one those swords. Also, sometimes you make big sweeping cuts where both of your swords are out of line and your exposed and vunerable. Not a problem for cutting, but trouble if your trying to get your form down for fighting. I try to minimize long sweeping motions when fighting two weapons, keeping one towards my front and in line/guard at all times. However... with two weapon styles for me it's only been two escrima sticks, or short sword and knife, or knife and hand axe. Or in fencing, Rapier and Dagger. I've never tried to fight case or two sword before... so take my observations with a grain of salt knowing that. Awesome looking swords, great cutting... +1 BIG time! I miss that sword already... It's better of with you tho... you make it sing like I couldn't, and you made it SO much more sexy looking. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2009 7:00:25 GMT
Hey Mike, looks like you had a lot of fun. A few things to keep in mind is that your don't want to cross your swords EVER. It is a good way to get both weapons bound up. The "A" frame stance of holding your sword is your friend with two weapons. Hold the swords at a slight angle with the tip facing inward and on your side. It lets you block most slashes pretty effectively while having an offensive reposte ready to go. The only real weakness is against the stab. As for using the one sword foward and one sword back stance...while it is an effective stance, the sword foward basically becomes a shield. The attacks you throw off it is minor at best and that sword becomes mostly there for defense...at that point, why not just use a shield?!? If I'm gonna use two weapons, I want two offenses...not a gimped shield (and a shield bash to the head isn't exactly an attack to sneeze at either). As always some very fine cutting .
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 17, 2009 7:44:42 GMT
I will be seeking out a web-cafe tomorrow so I can watch this. two sword has long been one of my specialties in SCA fighting BUT I'm way out of shape and practice AND cutting feels a lot different than hitting and I'm still adjusting to it. in my rematch with Hiroshi I did a little bit of two sword but I really wasn't doing it well. to my way of thinking two sword is flexible, fluid, and fast. I shift from using both swords back in all-offense to one forward-one aft, and both forward (A-frame) but once I get started moving I try to stay in motion. your best defense in two sword is body-movement and to a lesser extent, deflection. hard blocks are a serious no-no. it has to be soft and resilient. this is the reason I'm having so much trouble pulling it off right now: you gotta run baby! I'm out of shape to the point I hate to run and it's not real effective for me because I've gotten slow. I would love to get back in shape but that's going to be a long hard road and I lack the confidence to say I'll be able to do it for sure. so anyway you have to drive in hard and then smoosh softly to their response, pulling and luring them out of position or into over-extending. then you dive back in hard and fast right into their soft spot. lots of movement, lots of mind-tricks and body feignts. for cutting though. . . well I want to watch your vid first. (I can get online using a govt. computer but I'm restricted from viewing some things) I'm excited to see this Mike. SEAN! WHY THE HELL DID YOU GIVE HIM THAT SWORD? I didn't realize you had one of THOSE!!!!!!! I probably would have given you your sweetheart-sword for that! GAAAR! frustration!!! I've been wanting one of those for a while. GRRRRRRRRR! oh well. I'll get one or something like it sooner or later and I'll still have Sean's sweetheart sword. . .
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2009 9:08:39 GMT
Mike, I'm just jealous. Those are two great looking swords and it looks like you had a blast. Since I have not had the money to pick of Christian Tobler's book and get Tsafa to stark web coaching me on Euro sword I can't say a darn thing about your technique, but it looks better than anything I could pull off. (time to scuttle back to my Chinese sword section now) +1 for the two sword vid, and including the soundtrack info. My wife now wants to do a dance routine to the song you had going at app the 3:00 time stamp.
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Insane
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Post by Insane on Jun 17, 2009 11:17:21 GMT
Very nice Mike!
I'd like to see more.
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Post by ShooterMike on Jun 17, 2009 14:30:36 GMT
Thanks for the positive response. It is becoming my favorite style. I am now looking at every single-hander with a critical eye toward whether or not I think it would make a good pair. Maybe not such a good thing? Too expensive! Fun to watch and certainly skillfull cutting, but what made you want to try cutting with two swords in the first place? Hmmm... I can't remember exactly what started the thought. A lot of little things, really. But I got motivated about 3 months ago and started doing research into eskrima stick fighting. And found that it was originally developed as a training method for using Filipino swords. Laughter? That was awesome! If you'd like some constructive criticism, well, you probably noticed that sometimes you touched your swords together... this probably has pros and cons from a defensive point of view but also might nick your swords. I am still in awe of your cutting, I can't do anything like it with European style swords. If you look closely, the only time the two swords touch is at the start of the first cut sequence, where I was doing the cuts super-slow. My timing got a bit off since I was mostly just concentrating on the one sword to demo the 3-cut sequence. The impact is very obvious, especially in the slow motion footage. It was actually just a bare tip tap. I couldn't feel it at all and there was no mark left on either blade. Just heard the light clink is all. But I was noticing that the video actually makes them look like they cross or come very close together quite often, when in fact, they are over a foot apart at all times. But then that's all part of the limitations of a 2-dimensional image. As for being open to counter-attack, thanks for pointing that out as really obvious. I have been very aware of it. And that's something I want to add to the practice, once I get the left equal to the right in terms of coordination. I'm really looking forward to what Tom has to say after seeing the clip. I KNOW he will be searching out a matching pair of swords soon. ;D Thanks again for all the kind words and helpful critiques.
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Post by ShooterMike on Jun 17, 2009 14:33:38 GMT
Oh yeah... One final bit of info. I won't be doing any more of this for a while. I just found out that I've had a torn ligament covering my left rotator cuff for the last 2 weeks (while making this video). That must be why the left side feels so "weak" eh? Gotta let it rest for a month or so before i can do any more left-hand practice.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2009 15:30:55 GMT
My .02:
If you do decide to use two swords, they need to be slightly shorter - like a gladius, a wak, or a GenII riding sword. This way you don't hit your own blades accidently and you have more room for error.
I've done two weapon, but always with something a good bit shorter in the off-hand, such as a mace, axe, dagger, belay pin, warhammer, etc...
In the video, though the cutting is quite nice, the use of two full size blades seems to 'open up your gate' alot and your gestures have to be overdone to avoid hitting your own blade. In an actual fight, I don't really see this as being practical and it weakens your defense.
Now, if you could do the same thing with two gladii/waks/or GenII riding swords; I think it would improve your defense and speed. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2009 18:12:53 GMT
Mike you make this look seriously cool. It looks like great fun though I’m not sure if I could be trusted with two swords. I would probably end up cutting my leg off or something.
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Post by alvin on Jun 17, 2009 18:36:28 GMT
Great cuttin' as is the usual for you Mike. Great form and control. Sorry to hear about the ligament ! Take it easy for a while. You ain't an old fart yet - not even 50 - but you've got to be a little more careful !! Advice from an actual old fart. + 1 2 ya.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2009 18:46:17 GMT
I can't see the video...but from what everyone else is saying, it looked cool. I think you need no more karma, SM...just a chuck on the shoulder, like us men do. lol
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Post by shadowhowler on Jun 17, 2009 19:03:26 GMT
Hmmm... I can't remember exactly what started the thought. A lot of little things, really. But I got motivated about 3 months ago and started doing research into eskrima stick fighting. And found that it was originally developed as a training method for using Filipino swords. Now your speaking my languge Mike... I wish you were closer, I would LOVE to get back into my escrima, and it would be amazing to have someone to practice with. Heal that shoulder... I can't wait to see more awesome two sword action from you. Odingaard: The Atrim 1557 is a bit longer then I would prefer for trying something like this myself, but only JUST... and the weight abd balance of them helps make up for that a lot. It only weighs two pounds, and it feels almost weightless in hand. The only trouble is the length, having the swords get in each others way. Like I said before, with blades, I have only ever done something like this with a Short sword and dagger, the off hand weapon being much shorter so it dosnt get in the way... but then again, Mike is far more cool then I am. ;D
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Post by ShooterMike on Jun 17, 2009 19:32:03 GMT
Aw shucks... *kicks at the ground* Odingaard, that's an interesting point about a shorter blade. Over the last couple of days I had been pondering the use of a slightly longer sword for the right, and a much shorter heavy falchion for the left.... Thoughts to explore when I get healed up.
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Post by wiwingti on Jun 17, 2009 20:56:56 GMT
very cool video man
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Post by YlliwCir on Jun 17, 2009 22:19:21 GMT
Very good cutting, Mike. I've thought about something like that a time or two but have been afraid I'd cut a hand off or something. Maybe I start by practicing with my left hand for a while. Well done.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2009 22:55:08 GMT
Well I have done SCA combat with two longsword length weapons so I wouldn't worry TOO much about the length. Like I said, the A frame stance is your friend. Although like Tom mentioned, two sword is all about movement...but unlike Tom, I prefer having my movement be for agression and I make very little movement for defensive purposes. For me, this style is a very offensive, beat them down and beat them down quickly style. Course that doesn't mean leaving yourself wide open either .
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 17, 2009 23:52:28 GMT
I did not mean that I don't fight aggressively, oh no. I certainly understand the idea of the best defense being a god offense. HOWEVER it is unavoidable that defense will be needed. also, I always fight with the idea that if I lose I die. makes for some different decisions. I'm waiting for the clip to finish downloading now. once it is done I'm gonna watch it probably like 100 times but I'll respond with my first impressions right away.
Mike, PM incoming.
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