Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 9, 2009 9:32:08 GMT
to the individuals who like the larger and bigger blades, in a practical since in modern times and since the katana is primarily a battle weapon so let us say that this will never ever have to happen but speaking from a practical since if you had to use your katana sword say on an intruder in your home(you have no gun) and you have your big 30" blade at your quick disposal. well in order to deliever a proper powerful cut you usually bring the blade over your head then swing it down at an angle you choose so unless you have 14ft. cielings this would be nearly impossible to defend your own home with your katana would it not? on a side note i know of low angle diagonal cuts but this would be difficult as well as you have to get the blade as far back and as low as possible then swing upwards which would actually probably be your best bet Big NO. A: I have a 36" nagasa and I can still use it within a square of 2X3 meters (why? because sometimes I have to.). B: You don't have to severe bones, there's no need to insist on a powerful cut when another, less powerful and yet affective is easily available. C:You don't need to get the blade as far back and low as possible. You can do diagonal cuts also from when the tip is near your feet. D:In order to protect my house, I have knives, sticks, martial arts experience, and who said I have to even draw the sword and not use it as a stick when it's in the saya.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 9, 2009 11:35:19 GMT
well its just a scenario and a question. but you also have to bring into account the fact that an attacker would not stand still like a mat or a bottle he will not be on a wooden pole and would not be hung from a tree and he wont be motionless and allow you to just cut him down. im pretty sure you "warriors" have been in many life and death situations that cause for quick and agile thinking under heart pounding pressure in which you are able to wield a large bladed weapon in close quarters in an enclosed space with speed and accuracy. and yes i know if i ever had to use a katana i would do my best to deliever a devastating cut so i wont have to worry about my attacker getting back up. and i would rather swing with more force than necessary and still be accurate in a situation when defending myself or my home. but i agree it is body mechanics and yes a life ending cut generally doesnt need much force....on a bottle!. again just a scenario and question. (on a side note cutting up those bottles yea its fun but....isnt that for a samurai warrior each time a katana is unsheathed and doesnt taste blood its a dishonor to the blade? unless its a masamune i guess?)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 9, 2009 11:54:10 GMT
I know an attacker wouldn't stand still and I'm not counting on it in my answers. As part of my training I'm attacked with live knives in order to deliver a fatal blow, so I'd say I'm kinda good in acting under pressure. When you are in close quarters (as a house) you can't swing even a 28" blade properly without hitting something on the way in most cases. You can cut muscles, arteries, tendons. No need to cut off a hand or head. I don't even have to hold the katana with both hands on the tsuka, as there are several ways to wield it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 9, 2009 12:27:28 GMT
if you dont mind me asking "google" what exact training are you in just curious.and yes my point exactly what im trying to convey is someone would almost never have to wield a katana in a battle situation outdoors these days unless you walk down the street with it. so just speaking practically on my end. and speaking of muscles arteries and tendons how many of us have actually studied the human body in such a way to know where the muscles and tendons and arteries are for us to cut goes back to the battle pressure thing.... under pressure delivering a surgical accurate cut in a life and death situtation which would be even more difficult when holding the sword with one handand still be accurate. excuse my french gentleman but no im gonna try to cut the bastard in half if he is a violent intruder on my property.. also wielding the katana as a club within the scabbard yea you could but at all costs i would take the blade out there is always a chance the blade slips out and what if it lands on your foot ouch! again hopefully no one has to use their katana for killing and honestly how many of us can handle the sight of a man's severed hand we just chopped off and watching blood flow from the stub while he is screaming like a wild banshee. shooting someone is one thing but a blade like a katana can do things to a human's body that a gun dreams of doing.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 9, 2009 13:43:59 GMT
I train ninjutsu. And that teaches me also of the works of the human body. Experience teach me that if I try to cut even with a regular blade it requires strength and leverage that in a house would end with the sword hitting the ceiling or a wall or a closet of some sort. If you want to cut an intruder in half, it's your choice. I'm just saying that are plenty other ways to stop an assailant with a sword, some not even killing him/her. And when I mentioned not drawing the sword, I meant using it within the saya as a short stick. Try searching "hanbo" in youtube.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 9, 2009 14:05:39 GMT
night, you should REALLY lay off the movies. Also, every 7th grader knows the basics about "hot spots" in the human body- neck, major joints, armpits, calves. All have major veins/arteries running through them. You learn this in an avarage 7th grade "science" class (named differently in every place, that's how it's named here). "Cut the bastard in half"? do you know what kind of leverage and momentum you need for a cut that can achive such a feat? cutting a person in half means going through some major bones, around 3 TIMES IN ONE SWING. Plus, what good is in it for you? You will just be arrested afterwards. You should remember, night- The Katana, in addition to cutting with momentum and leverage, excels in SLICING. In a confined space, it would be a lot wiser to go with small movements to not keep youself exposed, and slice key locations. A simple slice can be deep enough to decomission limbs for quite a while- enough for you to apprehend the bastard and call the police. You can go ahead and try super-wide movements in a confined space, don't start crying when your blade is caught in a cupboard/cieling and you are wide open to recieve an attack. Stick to reality man, lay off the movies.
Also, "how many of us can handle the sight of a man's severed hand"? Most of us, probably. You can thank TV and the movies for that, it's not such a rare sight these days. Also, some of us may have already seen that in real life, or even more gruesome things.
Lay off the movies, stick to reality. It'd do you only good, man.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 9, 2009 16:02:30 GMT
night, you should REALLY lay off the movies. Also, every 7th grader knows the basics about "hot spots" in the human body- neck, major joints, armpits, calves. All have major veins/arteries running through them. You learn this in an avarage 7th grade "science" class (named differently in every place, that's how it's named here). "Cut the bastard in half"? do you know what kind of leverage and momentum you need for a cut that can achive such a feat? cutting a person in half means going through some major bones, around 3 TIMES IN ONE SWING. Plus, what good is in it for you? You will just be arrested afterwards. You should remember, night- The Katana, in addition to cutting with momentum and leverage, excels in SLICING. In a confined space, it would be a lot wiser to go with small movements to not keep youself exposed, and slice key locations. A simple slice can be deep enough to decomission limbs for quite a while- enough for you to apprehend the bastard and call the police. You can go ahead and try super-wide movements in a confined space, don't start crying when your blade is caught in a cupboard/cieling and you are wide open to recieve an attack. Stick to reality man, lay off the movies. Also, "how many of us can handle the sight of a man's severed hand"? Most of us, probably. You can thank TV and the movies for that, it's not such a rare sight these days. Also, some of us may have already seen that in real life, or even more gruesome things. Lay off the movies, stick to reality. It'd do you only good, man. Can you define the difference between slicing and cutting for me? Dictionaries show zilch, and the only concrete advice I've heard is to "draw/pull" the katana through your target, rather than into it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 9, 2009 16:14:20 GMT
Something like that. "Cutting" is a very general term, while "Slicing" is pulling/pushing the blade while it's perpendicular to the target and making contact. "Cutting" can be with a jagged knife, while it doesn't exactly slice- it rips. What i meant was that instead of swinging it at the target and trying to make your way through, you can just make ANY type of contact between the blade and the target, and pull/push while adding pressure in the direction you want to slice through.
A good cut with a katana consists of both swing momentum and slicing action, but in a confined space.... the slicing properties are more than enough.
|
|
|
Post by randomnobody on May 9, 2009 16:27:03 GMT
I've always liked to think of "slicing" as a thrusting movement that intends to contact with the edge rather than the tip. A cut generally is more perpendicular to the target and is intended for depth.
Then there's hacking, slashing, chopping, and all the rest, but we'll leave those alone.
Although, one never hears of "cut bread" and we prefer to "slice" cheese...but in the context of a sword I prefer my idea, though it's a difficult one to convey. My descriprion wasn't very good.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 9, 2009 16:28:50 GMT
night, you should REALLY lay off the movies. Also, every 7th grader knows the basics about "hot spots" in the human body- neck, major joints, armpits, calves. All have major veins/arteries running through them. You learn this in an avarage 7th grade "science" class (named differently in every place, that's how it's named here). "Cut the bastard in half"? do you know what kind of leverage and momentum you need for a cut that can achive such a feat? cutting a person in half means going through some major bones, around 3 TIMES IN ONE SWING. Plus, what good is in it for you? You will just be arrested afterwards. You should remember, night- The Katana, in addition to cutting with momentum and leverage, excels in SLICING. In a confined space, it would be a lot wiser to go with small movements to not keep youself exposed, and slice key locations. A simple slice can be deep enough to decomission limbs for quite a while- enough for you to apprehend the bastard and call the police. You can go ahead and try super-wide movements in a confined space, don't start crying when your blade is caught in a cupboard/cieling and you are wide open to recieve an attack. Stick to reality man, lay off the movies. Also, "how many of us can handle the sight of a man's severed hand"? Most of us, probably. You can thank TV and the movies for that, it's not such a rare sight these days. Also, some of us may have already seen that in real life, or even more gruesome things. Lay off the movies, stick to reality. It'd do you only good, man. Can you define the difference between slicing and cutting for me? Dictionaries show zilch, and the only concrete advice I've heard is to "draw/pull" the katana through your target, rather than into it. In this context, I believe cutting means to severe through bones ( think tameshigiri), and slicing is just opening the flesh.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 9, 2009 18:31:54 GMT
I like a 14" tsuka with a 27" blade and a chu kissaki with geometric yokote. Silver fittings with a brown matte suba and brown silk wrap.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 9, 2009 19:14:08 GMT
thank you monkeybear for commenting on the topic. let me adress what "pika007" had said. i know some are and some arent fans of the show deadliest warrior i happen to be a fan and one interesting thing they said was how they would test katana swords by cutting through what i believe was human bodies stacked on one another. and they said you would hear of 5 body and 6 body swords which means that those swords were cutting through six bodies or things with the densities of bodies. and let me clarify when i say half i mean horizontally not vertically which may also be able to be done. maybe it is alot of people who have lost sight of what katana can and is supposed to do. its designed to cut human flesh and human bone and it does so very well you can roll up as many mats as you want but still the katana is for cutting human targets! its good preactice and erhem... when you are cutting mats isnt it supposed to simulate the flesh and bone of a human target? and of course we know of armpits major joints and calves but the gentleman had spoke specifically of arteries and major veins not armpits and calves. i agree with the push and pull a katana is like a razor you can apply pressure and simply slice your way through in the direction you choose but if necessary yes a "real" katana has no problem chewing its way through flesh and bone in one stroke. and as far as commenting on reality....movies are great we all watch them doesnt have to be about cutting people up does it? when you were a seventh grader you knew how to kill a man right? they compared the great pika007 to musashi right?i doubt most people on this forum if not all have never and probably will never kill anyone. talk about tv and movies thats fake hello...cmon who is the one who really escaped from reality saying that tv and movies can simulate such a site is like saying if you spend hours and hours watching the discovery channel and now your an expert on nuclear physics i belive someone else has let reality slip away...
|
|
Marc Ridgeway
Member
Retired Global Moderator
"The best cost less when you buy it the first time." - Papabear
Posts: 3,122
|
Post by Marc Ridgeway on May 9, 2009 19:42:20 GMT
can roll up as many mats as you want but still the katana is for cutting human targets! its good preactice and erhem... when you are cutting mats isnt it supposed to simulate the flesh and bone of a human target? and of course we know of armpits major joints and calves but the gentleman had spoke specifically of arteries and major veins not armpits and calves.... Speaking of armpits and calves and veins and arteries, here is a illuminating quote on the issue from Hyakutake Colin Sensei... I'll leave it to you to discover his impeccable credentials on your own... He comments specifically on using the long sword insead of the short... and specifically on the techniques mentioned (arteries, veins, armpits etc...) and their advatage over simply slashing and cleaving.....
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 9, 2009 19:43:16 GMT
Well, i had the chance to watch a human EXPLODE right in my face, so instead of you, i wouldn't make too early of an assumption about another man. About the 7th grader thing- Yes, when i was in 7th grade i knew that if i would puncture one of those major arteries i just learned about in a serious way, it would kill a man. What's so odd about it? Also, about cutting people in havles- It's not all about the sword. To achive that feat you need a great sword, a technique level to match it, years of training, AND SPACE TO TAKE THE SWING. The last factor is what i was aiming for- In confined space, you CAN'T get the swing and momentum you need. I don't think any of us are real 13-17th century samurai (or at that level) either, in addition to that. On the topic of movies VS. reality, in todays action movies, they don't really save us the sight of severed arms and such, and let me gaurentee you- it doesn't look all that different in reality. If you've seen it in the movies and didn't cringe, it shouldn't be any different in real life, and this is said talking from expirience.
P.S- I was about to edit, but marc got there before me. Read his post, understand why i mentionted those locations.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 9, 2009 19:58:32 GMT
thank you monkeybear for commenting on the topic. let me adress what "pika007" had said. i know some are and some arent fans of the show deadliest warrior i happen to be a fan and one interesting thing they said was how they would test katana swords by cutting through what i believe was human bodies stacked on one another. and they said you would hear of 5 body and 6 body swords which means that those swords were cutting through six bodies or things with the densities of bodies. and let me clarify when i say half i mean horizontally not vertically which may also be able to be done. maybe it is alot of people who have lost sight of what katana can and is supposed to do. its designed to cut human flesh and human bone and it does so very well you can roll up as many mats as you want but still the katana is for cutting human targets! its good preactice and erhem... when you are cutting mats isnt it supposed to simulate the flesh and bone of a human target? and of course we know of armpits major joints and calves but the gentleman had spoke specifically of arteries and major veins not armpits and calves. i agree with the push and pull a katana is like a razor you can apply pressure and simply slice your way through in the direction you choose but if necessary yes a "real" katana has no problem chewing its way through flesh and bone in one stroke. and as far as commenting on reality....movies are great we all watch them doesnt have to be about cutting people up does it? when you were a seventh grader you knew how to kill a man right? they compared the great pika007 to musashi right?i doubt most people on this forum if not all have never and probably will never kill anyone. talk about tv and movies thats fake hello...cmon who is the one who really escaped from reality saying that tv and movies can simulate such a site is like saying if you spend hours and hours watching the discovery channel and now your an expert on nuclear physics i belive someone else has let reality slip away... Really, man, what the hell? Not all katana could go through 5 bodies, and there is a RANK made for katana cutting ability. Look at Obata sensei of shinkendo cutting multiple tatami- he takes hell of space to swing. You can't just place a blade on someone and it'll slice like there was nothing there. You need the space to create a powerful blow. Even a O-wazamono katana can't cut an arm off from point-blank. Probably you'll tell me next that "real" katana can cut through diamond or whatnot. It's not that uncommon to know places that can kill. I knew several ways as far back as 4th grade. Do you have any background of martial arts, or even regular street fighting? Do you have experience handling katana? Because it sure doesn't look like it!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 9, 2009 22:33:07 GMT
let me address what "marc ridgeway" said. of course a katana is a stabbing weapon as well as slashing and by all means if someone doesnt know how to cut with a katana they should probably stab with it. and im sure their are places a straight sword can reach that a katana cant. and "pika007" i am sure you are glad you got the opportunity to witness a human being explode. and i agree you need a proper weapon with proper technique and with proper space in order to deliver a cut that would bifercate a human being. and on the topic of movies im sure that individuals with common since would think that kill bill does not accurately depict a human physical reaction to being cut with a katana. and im sure someone of your prowess on the battle field has witness the scatterd remains of charred human flesh and the blood curdling screams individuals let out as they are writhing in pain and dying. and as such "google" of course not all katana can cut through five bodies the ones most people own on this forum cant do that im sure mines probably won't. of course you need the distance in order to deliver a powerful cut which would be almost impossible with a 30" blade in a confined space. and what would lead anyone to believe that a katana can cut through a diamond the hardest material on earth although the japanese have legend their own work which most people do and say the katana has a diamond hard edge. like dirty harry with the 44. and lastly my personal experiences are just heresay and cant be proven nor can yours. your truth is simply your truth. but you as a ninjutsu practicioner and all others im sure that the survival.... pretty much the other 9 schools of ninjutsu arent even a valid point in the curriculum of the martial art their are 18 in total. and sure yea maybe the other 9 schools arent valid today but still it is what the ninja did so it is what you all should be doing right?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 9, 2009 22:57:03 GMT
You are missing the point, again- I claimed that the actual SIGHT of something like a limb being cut in most movies is not that different from reality. blood squirts out, etc. Usually they make it look even worse in the movies (ever seen "Predator"?) If one didn't shock you, the other one would probably not as well. I'm not talking about the physical reaction. I also ask of you to drop the dismissive and sarcastic attitude- stop taking this to personal tracks. While not exactly "battlefield expirience", i happened to be in a certain train depot while a rocket hit a fuel tank that exploded, killing 8 people along with it. So yeah, i had my share of humans with charred flesh writhing in pain, thank you very much. Now stick to the actual SUBJECT please. Regarding this sentance- But the thing is that those major veins and arteries you speak of are running through the armpits, calves, and other major joints. this is exactly the point. You want to hit a major vein/artery? Your best chance is to stab/slice one of the points mentioned above, you're almost gaurenteed to succeed. Here, have a look- www.appliedsciencehelp.co.uk/Images/circulation%20system.gif
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 9, 2009 23:08:47 GMT
well "pika007" i have not been dismissive nor sarcastic to anyone so we can drop that there. and yes when a arm is severed the blood still flows and squirts from the wound but your saying like movies actually get advice from medical doctors on how to make scenes of dismemberment more realistic. no they are special effects guys doing their job and they wanna make a severed limb look dramatic and exciting. and we all have pretty much derailed from the actual subject which is why i thanked "monkeybear" for commenting on the origional topic. and when you say guaranteed to succeed... succeed in what? this coverstation started by the katana being used in a confined space against an attacker in a life and death situation what i was trying to convey in such a situation if you do have a katana it would be alot harder to control and manuveur and deliver alot of force with a larger blade. because lets face it no one carries a katana around looking for a fight these days in big open spaces.
|
|
Marc Ridgeway
Member
Retired Global Moderator
"The best cost less when you buy it the first time." - Papabear
Posts: 3,122
|
Post by Marc Ridgeway on May 9, 2009 23:42:01 GMT
I did not say that .... It was said by Hyatukate Colin. This is also from the website of Kage Ryu Colin Hyakutake-Watkin is a kaiin of the Kage-ryu and holds menkyo kaiden of the Taiko Kono-ha-ryu battojutsu. He is Jonin Riji (permanent director) and International Judge of the Kokusai Todo Renmei (International Sword Way Federation) and is a high-ranking exponent in kendo, karate, jujutsu, iaido, and battodo. He is the coach for the Saga Prefecture School Kendo Federation and is a lecturer and guidance councilor for a group of schools in the area. He knows better than me, and far better than "you" what he is talking about. Do you really think that he doesn't know how to cut with a sword? That he stabs because he cannnot cut? Do you argue just to argue? Do you believe that you can simply dispute the techniques being supported by a master of Japanese Arts just because of something you saw on Most Deadly Warrior? Don't be silly. Katana can not cut through armor... and it was armored Samurai that perfected the techniques with which to kill with katana. Sure there are plenty of cuts involved... but so much of using a sword is finding the small unprotected areas and opening the veins with a thrust or a flick..... Really , I don't see the point in taking this further... I'm beginning to smell like troll-bait.
|
|
|
Post by Reisz on May 9, 2009 23:47:48 GMT
Night, I think we can safely say that all that needs to be said regarding this portion of the topic has been said. You are obviously very confident of the validity of your stance on this matter so shall we leave it there? you have been doing an awfully good job of perpetuating the topic we are currently on so if you desire to return to the original subject matter, I would suggest the best course of action would be to respond to the thread with some more constructive info or comments on the topic you intended. I think the bounds of kind debate have fallen to the ground at this point. and I feel the need to point out: when you were a seventh grader you knew how to kill a man right? they compared the great pika007 to musashi right? That sir is sarcasm. and "pika007" i am sure you are glad you got the opportunity to witness a human being explode. I would find that very dismissive. So to attempt to start this back on topic; Does anyone have any Katana with an especially long tsuka? how does it affect the balance of the sword and your ability to draw through a cut? maybe some Oniyuri owner could chime in on that? -Reisz
|
|