# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  French infantry swords models 1845/55

## Richard W

I have recently been researching French infantry swords Models 1845 and 1855 and have viewed some 40 examples from the internet excluding my collection.
	These swords are interesting for a number of reasons.
1. These swords were manufactured, in large numbers, over a long period of time, from 1845 to 1916 at least. They were manufactured and used in parallel with the 1882 infantry model. La Gazette des Armes, number 233, states that over 33,000 were produced at Chatelleraux between Aug 1914 and the end of 1916. They were also worn long after swords became items of decoration and not used in battle.

2. This group of swords include two very different blades, one for superior officers, with two fullers separated by a central gutter, double edged and tapering to the point, and the other for junior officers and NCOs, slightly curved, with a single fuller and a gutter along the back of the blade. The hilts for both designs are essentially the same.

3. Both regulation and privately produced swords exist. Relatively minor variations exist for privately produced examples mainly in the decoration of the hilts. Some private manufacturers and cutlers are listed in La Gazette des Armes, number 233 and some examples may be viewed on Mark Clokes excellent data base on the internet at oldswords.com.

Changes to the model 1845 swords, with leather scabbards, occurred in 1855, with the adoption of steel scabbards and minor changes to the junior officers blade. These changes produced model 1855. Both of these models, 1845 and 1855, are well defined both in the literature and by actual markings on swords. Lhoste & Buigne, Armes Blanches, Portail 2009, p 246 quote the 1856 regulation which required a standardization of manufacturers  and model date. The use of the model dates is confusing as illustrated by two examples given by Lhoste & Buigne.

		Mre Imp de Chat, Mars 1867, OInf re,Mle 1855
		Mre dArmes de Chat Aout 1884, Adj dINFrie Mle 1845

These are only two examples of many seen in the 40 or so swords I have viewed.

I seems to me that any sword manufactured post 1855, or after the 1856 regulation, should be the 1855 model. The only exception might be an adjutant d Infantry who might have retained an 1845 sword, since it is said that they only gave up their leather scabbards for steel ones around 1870. However there are too many examples of the use of model 1845 marks well past the 1870s for this to be the reason. Such numbers also exclude the occasional Controlleur or Inspecteur, going to sleep on the job.

Hence, after all this chat, my question is - what is going on? - expert comment please.

Another interesting fact is that quite a number of examples exist of 1882 blades with a 1845/55 hilt - so what is it about this hilt which makes it so attractive?

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## niall dignan

Richard.
The 1845 hilt is essentially the same for all officers apart from it being gilded for the superior grades and simply polished brass for the subalterns and adjutants.The blades,however are quite distinctive as you describe above.
Although the M1855 entailed the change of scabbard type, the sabre itself, for junior officers, remained basically the same and seems to have been inscribed uniformly, from 1856 on, as _  Adj d'INFrie 1845_.  To complicate things the french themselves seem to refer to all these as M1855s,even when they are dated previous to this and have leather scabbards. See the 'Le Hussard' website, for example.                :Confused:  

There are always anomolies with French swords but usually it is the hilt type which designates the model.There was a degree of latitude as regards blades.

_Lhoste & Resek_ in 'Les Sabres.........'(pages 279-280) discuss the M1845 and its evolution.

I can understand your confusion :Smilie: 

The quality of the example I have is very high ,in particular,the cast brass hilt which is very attractive IMO

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## william.m

I have three 1845 pat swords and they are all very different to each other. One even has a straight blade! The other two I believe is a superior sword and one standard trooper.

I will take some shots and post them up.  :Smilie:

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## Richard W

Dear William
I would be interested in the photos of your three swords. I have put two of these swords on Mark Cloke's web site with fairly detailed descriptions. The one marked model 1855 is the superior officer's presentation sword and the other 1845 model is a much earlier junior officer's sword. The blades of the two are very different and as mentioned above, the officer's hilts were guilded. In fact as quoted in the literature, the hilt of the superior officer's sword is somewhat larger the that for the junior officer. This can only really be seen, if the actual swords are placed side by side. I still find it strange that some manufacturers themselves, either ignored the 1856 regulation, or did not recognise the M1855. From my survey, it almost seems that the later the sword, the more likely the blade is marked M1845! I do wonder sometimes how the fairly complicated junior officer's blade was made in such large quanties - anyway it is a very nice sword!
Richard.

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## william.m

Here are the photos as promised!














Alternate images with different light.

Hilt
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h156/william-m/8.jpg

Tips
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h156/william-m/5.jpg

Whole swords
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h156/william-m/3.jpg

Size comparison
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h156/william-m/6.jpg

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## Richard W

Dear Niall
Thanks for your reply. I have re-examined the information I had collected from the internet and find that all the swords which should be M1855 and are marked M1845, are indeed marked "Adj d'Inf ". I have only found superior officer's sword marked " O'd'Inf ". It seems that it was a tradition to mark adjutant's swords as M1845, even when manufactured as late as 1901.
Thank you also for reminding me of the lehussard.com site. I lost it and forgot it when my computer was badly affected by viruses and the operating system was reinstalled. I have now seen eleven more 1845/55 swords from the site. However this site has named several swords M1855 when it is clear they must be 1845. One was manufactured in Avril 1845 and another from Chatellerault in Sept 1852.
This reinforces my opinion that this group of swords should be referred to as M1845/55 to reduce the confusion.

If swords are given a model date depending on their hilt pattern, should a 1882 blade with a 1845/55 hilt, of which I have seen four examples, be still defined as either a M1845 of M1855 (or M1845/55) sword ?

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## Richard W

William
A very nice group of swords. It looks as if you have one superior officer's sword and two junior officer's swords. Are there any markings on them ?
What is the very curved sword in the photo with four swords ? You can probably save me the time, no doubt very interesting, to identify it !
Thanks for the photos. Richard.

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## DanR

Hi Richard and Niall,
Thats a real treat of a subject you brought.
I'll take time to go through your posts .
These sabers had a long life; I have seen a photo of a NCO carrying one in WW1.
Right now, my 1845 is made by "A.Chassepot, entrepreneur à Châtellerault"...signature not often seen on a 1845.
Seems like these sabers are an evolution of the model "officier de marine 1837". 
I have a model said "Chasseur de Vincennes" wich is also a look alike, signd by P.D.Luneschoss in Solingen.
The particular shape of this blade is said "langue de carpe" (carp tongue).

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## william.m

Hi Richard,

Ths long curved sword is a M1822, I just put it in there as I felt like taking photos of my french swords!  :Smilie:  
The two junior swords are void of markings with only the superior's blade having writing on the tang. I have the sword up somewhere on SFI when I was asking for help in reading the various abbreviations. Funny thing is that I prefer the two junior swords to the superior as the superior is featherlight... far too light to be a sword, it almost feels like a wand.

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## niall dignan

> This reinforces my opinion that this group of swords should be referred to as M1845/55 to reduce the confusion.
> 
> If swords are given a model date depending on their hilt pattern, should a 1882 blade with a 1845/55 hilt, of which I have seen four examples, be still defined as either a M1845 of M1855 (or M1845/55) sword ?


Yes,Richard,the group of swords can be refered to as M1845/55 but the convention,according to the 1856 regulations,as adopted by the state armouries,is more specific;

The sabre for junior officers,marked  _Adj d'INFrie 1845._  is designated the M1845.

The sabre for  officers,marked  _O’Inf ‘re,Mle 1855_  is designated the M1855

The sabre for superior officers  _O'Supérieur Mle 1855_ is also designated M1855

Those which are private purchases are assigned the appropriate designation.

 I know this is stating the obvious , but it helps to clarify.The M1845 label refers to a specific sabre type for junior officiers,whereas the ubiquitous M1855 has a lot more variation.Thats my opinion,FWIW.


A M1882 blade married to a M1845/55 hilt would be for a  superior officier and would be a M1855.I doubt if a junior officier would be allowed the latitude of choosing his own blade.


As William suggests,the blade on the M1845 is pretty substantial and is designed under the precept it might actually be used.

Just adding some images of my own,later, example.Also comparing tableclothes. :Smilie:

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## Richard W

Niall
The inscription is very clear and demonstrates the long life of this sword. I notice you have not photographed the "gutter"
Richard

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## Rob O'Reilly

Richard,

My 1845 is date April 1846, blade manufactured at Châtellerault, but made by the sword maker Manceau of Paris.

As you can see it has the triple fuller blade you spoke of.

Rob

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## Richard W

Rob
A beautiful sword in much better condition than mine! I was starting to doubt if any superior officer swords existed prior to 1855, They should have done but it is good to see an actual example.

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## Rob O'Reilly

Thanks Richard,

I had to go all the way to Paris to find this one.  Scrounging the back streets paid off when I spotted this one in the window of a small shop.

Rob

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## Jeff T.

Hello everyone,
First post here, I hope you don't mind me tagging on to this thread. I've just seen what I believe to be a French M1855 for sale at an attractive price and am considering buying it.

The blade is marked with 
A Macaud A Paris
51 Rue Vivienne 51

Does anyone know of this maker? Am I correct in my guess that a price of about 130 EUR is pretty good for one of these in fair to good condition (the sword itself looks good, but the scabbard is lightly rusted)?

Thanks in advance for any input.

Regards
Jeff

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## Max C.

Has anyone ever encountered an 1845 with a damascus blade? I have recently acquired a superior officer version on which unfortunately the maker's signature is mostly gone, only an "L", a possible Klingenthal and 1868 remains, but the blade has a clear damascus pattern.

Edit: On further observation I think the maker would be P.D. Luneschloss Solingen, I have found Damascus blades from this maker on other models.

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## Max C.

Pictures from the sword in question.

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## DanR

> Hello everyone,
> First post here, I hope you don't mind me tagging on to this thread. I've just seen what I believe to be a French M1855 for sale at an attractive price and am considering buying it.
> 
> The blade is marked with 
> A Macaud A Paris
> 51 Rue Vivienne 51
> 
> Does anyone know of this maker? Am I correct in my guess that a price of about 130 EUR is pretty good for one of these in fair to good condition (the sword itself looks good, but the scabbard is lightly rusted)?
> 
> ...


PM sent.
Dan

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## DanR

Good afternoon Maxime,
Here are the photos you asked for.
Best,
Dan

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## P Hawkins

I have two 1845 type French sabres purchased in 1958 in France from our maid's father. One is slightly curved, the other straight, both with 30" blades, handles 5 l/4". 

One (curved, single flute, gutter at top, wire wrap in hilt) has "Mre d'Armes de Chat 4 - 7 ere 1876 = Ouj(s)a' Inf(rie) M(ce) 1845." Dificult for me to interpret, () = superscript. Engraving on the top is sharp & distinct. (Adj. / Jr. Officer ??)

The straight blade has the same hilt (wire wrap missing) & double fluted blade scripted "Manuf(u) Inf(la) Klingenthol" on one side & "Coulua Frerel" on the other (again, I don't know how to display the French). 

Both are in very good condition with metal scabbards. Wondering exactly what I have, and a value for my estate. Can send pictures.

Phil Hawkins in Texas

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## Javier Ramos

I have seen more than one example for superior officer made in Toledo, what was puzzling at the time as it was in Spain.

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## Andrew Jerram

Sorry for tagging on to the original question, but has anyone seen one of these with a polished horn grip instead of wood wrapped with leather? I believe that's what I am looking at.

Kind Regards,
Andrew

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## william.m

Hmmm, all 3 of my swords have horn grips. The only French sword I have owned which was wood wrapped with leather was a cavalry sword.

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## Matt Easton

Yes, all of the examples I have owned had horn covered grips - I have never seen a French infantry officer's sword with a leather covered grip. I've also never owned one which didn't have a loose wobbly hilt - unfortunately one of the problems of these swords!
The naval officer's sword of 1837 is fundamentally different in that it has a full backstrap like a British sword.

In regards to the difference between the junior and superieur officers' blades, what's also very significant is that they probably had completely different methods of use, as one is a sabre and the other is an epee in a fencing sense (Max or Ju Garry may be able to confirm in regards to the French military fencing manuals). Why they decided on a cut and thrust sword for junior officers and a purely thrusting blade for higher ranking officers is anyone's guess!

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## Matt Easton

Oh, and in regards to previous comments - just because a sword is lighter, does not mean it was not meant for combat. Just that it was used in a different manner - a thrusting sword does not require the mass of a cutting sword.

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## william.m

All three of mine are very different.  The superieur officer sword is almost foil like in its weight but seems to have still a pretty decent strength, I suppose this is owed to its deep and multiple fullers giving it an almost I beam cross section. I am not sure if it would be suitable for the thrust though as it is still quite curved.

Oh and loose hilts isn't a problem for me since discovering how to properly cold-peen them for a minor repair.

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## Matt Easton

It's nice when that works. I wish they had just put more substantial tangs on them. I'd take a well made British infantry officer's sword every time. Better grip, better guard and generally more robustly made, with a longer blade. The French blades are very nicely designed though and the 1845 is a good cutter.

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## Brian Nelson

Hello! First time poster. Is it okay to talk about/ask about values on this board?
The reason I ask is a friend recently moved to Australia and left a collection of swords and bayonets ( that were his fathers ) to sell.
He's not looking to make a mint but a fair price.

He bought these around the 1940's.

Here is what I believe is a french sword made roughly in 1845 era?
Marking on it makes it appear a non-regulation officer's sword.
I believe what the scribe says is "Manuf re Klingenthal Coulaux & Cie"

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## DanR

Good afternoon Brian,
You are right, no appraisals given on this forum.
Best,
Dan

PM on its way.

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## Richard Schenk

A member of the CW Talk forum has a sword on which he hopes SFI members might be able to provide some information.  It appears to be a French Mle 1845 infantry sword.  It was probably meant for export, possibly to either the North or South during the CW.  It differs from the usual French Army Mle 1845s in that it has no inspection marks and no maker/model/date info on the spine of the blade.  Unlike the normal French army versions which normally had polished horn grips, this sword has shagreen covered grips with twisted wire wrap.  The sword is totally unmarked other than a L (star) H stamped on the underside of the hilt, and a small 35 next to the blade.  The 35 is probably an assembly/parts number, but the other marking looks like it may be some type importer or retailer mark.  Have any Forum members seen this mark before?  Anyone have any idea of its meaning?  Thanks.

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