# Communities > Bladesmiths, Blacksmiths, Artisans and Professionals > Japanese-Style Sword Makers Cafe >  does laquering White same yellow it?

## David Stokes

it you take same, the white kind and clear laquer it, well it yellow it? protect it? or does it even matter..........will it last being not laquered

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## Will Graves

is just that; clear. It will not change the color or improve the same's durability significantly.

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## JohnD

Welcome back dude :Smilie:  

Glad to see that you made it! I didn't know if you got my e-mails but I've been trying to get a hold of you. Shoot me an e-mail sometime and let's chat ok. 

Take care and I'll talk to you later :Smilie:

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## Robert S. Mullin

> _Originally posted by Will Graves_ 
> *is just that; clear. It will not change the color or improve the same's durability significantly.*


Hi Will,

I think he's asking if the lacquer itself will turn yellow with age.  To the best of my knowledge, most (if not all) solvent-based lacquers "warm" as time goes by, especially if they're oil modified to boot (which some nitro-lacquer is).

On the other hand, waterborne lacquer isn't supposed to yellow with time, but since it is a relatively new product, the jury is still out.  I learned about waterborne lacquer on a custom luthier forum, and the folks there describe waterborne lacquerwork nearly ten years old that hasn't yellowed a bit, whereas solvent-based lacquer began to turn within five years.  I haven't yet played with waterborne lacquer myself, but I have used other waterborne finishes (varnishes and urethanes, mostly) with the same non-yellowing results (in comparison to their solvent-based counterparts).  But again, we're dealing with relatively new products, so the yellowing effect may simply be delayed.

As for durability, I think solvent-based finishes still have the edge, but not by much (at least according to my own research).  But the waterborne finishes are better in every other category I can think of, including gloss, clarity and, perhaps most importantly, toxicity.  OSHA loves waterborne finishes.  ;-)

Hope that helps.

-Robert

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## Will Graves

I read David's question as primarily one of protection. I can't imagine many lacquers doing much to improve same's longevity.

As for yellowing, the traditional varnishes and urethanes (Minwax, McCloskey, etc.) I've used start out amber and impart an immediate tone to a piece. Acrylic "clear" coatings seem to remain clear for years after application. The most color change I see is almost certainly due to the wood underneath aging. Some coatings have UV protection, some don't.

-Will

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## Keith Larman

> _Originally posted by David Stokes_ 
> *it you take same, the white kind and clear laquer it, well it yellow it? protect it? or does it even matter..........will it last being not laquered*


I don't know anything about the modern materials  (acrylics, etc.) the others are talking about. If your question is about either urushi or kashew lacquer, here's my understanding...

Clear lacquer will tend to yellow over time itself, getting warm as Robert mentioned. It seems to me that the time I used some clear the same' looked a bit darker to me. I don't know if it was my imagination, or a "trick of the light". Just fwiw. So grain of salt on that observation. 

Clear lacquering will "protect" the same' to an extent, but whether that increases it's "durability" (and how you define that) is another matter entirely. Same' over many years will yellow and darken due to exposure to air, light and moisture. Traditional lacquers don't have UV protection (obviously) but they will seal off the same' from the air and protect it from moisture to some extent. I've sometimes wondered if lacquer might protect the glue underneath the same' from moisture. It wouldn't make a difference with many modern glues, but plain elmer's or rice based glues it might make a significant difference since the moisture will degrade the adhesive. 

There are some effects to the wrap too, if it's wrapped. Usually there's minimal contact between the ito and the same depending on how the tsukamakishi does the wrap. But lacquered same' is smoother hence it's a bit (and I mean marginally at best) easier to tighten things up where you're doing twists (or whatever) if that's the style you're working in. Being lacquered also helps keep you from fraying the ito a tiny bit during wrapping (same' sometimes "grabs" a thread in the weave"). All minor things that likely have little effect, but since ya asked and I'm avoiding work... 

The lacquered same' can also have an effect depending on how the person who prepped the core did his or her job. I've seen some cores where they didn't bother building up paper or wood buttressing. That's generally not a good idea with certain wrapping styles since the hishigame can easily shift. That problem is magnified on lacquered same' since the hishigame aren't being "grabbed" as hard by the same' underneath. So they shift more easily speading the loosening of the wrap. But this is really more an issue of poor core prep rather than lacquered or not. It's gonna get loose no matter what, the lacquering might just speed it up in this scenario of no buttressing to hold the hishigame stationary.

So... Anyway, bottom line, unlacquered same' tends to age and yellow/darken over many years all by itself. Lacquered same' tends to get warmer not because of the same', but because of the lacquer itself darkening a bit. It might seal up the same' from the elements a bit, but likely any benefit is small. Unless you sweat like a stuck pig in which case it might make a difference.

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## Robert S. Mullin

> _Originally posted by Will Graves_ 
> *I read David's question as primarily one of protection. I can't imagine many lacquers doing much to improve same's longevity.
> 
> As for yellowing, the traditional varnishes and urethanes (Minwax, McCloskey, etc.) I've used start out amber and impart an immediate tone to a piece. Acrylic "clear" coatings seem to remain clear for years after application. The most color change I see is almost certainly due to the wood underneath aging. Some coatings have UV protection, some don't.
> 
> -Will*


About the only protection lacquer might convey to the rayskin (that I can see, at least) is as a moisture barrier, provided it remains intact.

As for the varnishes/urethanes you mentioned, they are oil modified (Minwax is, anyway), which explains why they start out amber.  As an aside, if you aren't already aware, Minwax makes a waterborne acrylic urethane that is milky white in the can, but dries clear and polishes out like a layer of glass.  It will yellow if used over an oil-based stain/dye, though.

With regards to the wood itself causing the finish to yellow, that is certainly possible (especially with the more oily woods), but there's definitely something else at work as well.  I base this on the color change that occurs to opaque finishes with or without clear top coats.  They change color with age, although it is more apparent with lighter colors.  For instance, one of my guitars has what was originally a translucent blue finish (lacquer), but time has given it a green tinge.  Definitely not the result of the wood changing color (chips in the finish confirm this).  I have another guitar with an opaque white finish (also lacquer), but it is already yellowing even after only a few years of existance.  (Not surprising since, as far as I know, white guitars always turn yellow.)  In both cases, it could very well be a UV issue, but my understanding of UV protection is that, although it maintains the wood's natural color longer, it doesn't necessarily maintain its own color.  Either way, though, I wouldn't be able to explain how the wood's aging could affect a color change in a clear top coat if there's and opaque color between them.

In any event, I don't really keep up on the technological advancements with finishes as much as I probably should (I'd rather be working in the shop than reading trade papers), so my information on UV protection may well be outdated.  But based solely on personal experience, I haven't yet seen or used a solvent-based finish that didn't yellow with age.  That's the main reason I've been moving toward waterborne finishes over the last few years.

Hmmm...  This is the type of discussion that should make this new forum really click.   :Smilie: 

-Robert

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## Will Graves

Your first two paragraphs were great. I'm with you. Keith made some good points, too. That acrylic product you mentioned; I use it--Polycrylic. I've used a bunch of it in the last 6-7 years and find it an excellent, so far truly clear finish.

Your report on the guitars was really interesting and surprising, and I think you have much more in experience in this area than I.  As you describe the guitars, are you speaking of nitrocellulose lacquer, or is there a more traditional finish? I ask because, as Keith's post clearly illustrates, we have been discussing a wide variety of coatings, and calling them "lacquer". Frankly, I think the term has been applied to so many products in the past 15 years it's hard to maintain an industry definition.

"Acrylic lacquer". What the hell is that, anyway? Well, it's a blend of special polymers and inhibitors in a water base that features our patented ultra-violet ray protection by the addition of ...zzzz....
Those bulletins are tough to get through, huh? 
How does it go on, how does it rub out, does it seem like it's going to last?  One still has to do the experimentation. And follow those manufacturers directions! And each different finish has it's own quirks and behaves differently than others.

Actually, I don't generally worry too much about various organic materials coloring with age. I try to work with natural wood as much as possible and I like how it ages. Nor do I mind _same_coloring with age and use. 
When I started in this craft, in the "restoration" end, I was encouraged to work toward particular colors of _same_ depending on what look a customer wanted. This could mean painting the underside to lighten or darken a piece, or cobbling together pieces from older, but still sound bits of skin. Ultimately, that kind of "fixing" lost its appeal for me as I ended up doing more and more mounts for martial artists (and less money!). I still have a couple of nice skins that aren't going to go on just any sword, but the color of the stuff I regularly use is of little consequence to me. The structure of the tsuka is much more critical and interesting.

But, I believe that water-born finishes are getting better and better. And when you find that one opaque acrylic coating that will finish a saya acceptably, I hope you'll share  :Smilie: . Meantime, I'm sticking with polyurethane :Smilie: 

-Will

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## Robert S. Mullin

[QUOTE]_Originally posted by Will Graves_ 
*Your first two paragraphs were great. I'm with you. Keith made some good points, too. That acrylic product you mentioned; I use it--Polycrylic. I've used a bunch of it in the last 6-7 years and find it an excellent, so far truly clear finish.*

That's the stuff.  And apparently Minwax has adjusted the formula somewhat because it doesn't "foam" as much as it used to.

*Your report on the guitars was really interesting and surprising, and I think you have much more in experience in this area than I.  As you describe the guitars, are you speaking of nitrocellulose lacquer, or is there a more traditional finish? I ask because, as Keith's post clearly illustrates, we have been discussing a wide variety of coatings, and calling them "lacquer". Frankly, I think the term has been applied to so many products in the past 15 years it's hard to maintain an industry definition.*

Well, I'm assuming the guitars were finished with nitro-lacquer since it is the most common finish currently used on guitars.  Before the advent of nitro-lacquer, guitar-makers used more conventional finishes--e.g., lacquer, varnish, shellac, etc.  In recent years, though, more and more luthiers are trying other stuff, including urethanes, waterborne finishes, epoxy varnish, and who knows what else.

As for using the term "lacquer" as a catch-all phrase, I've noticed it too.  I use the word "finish" instead, as it is a more appropriate term.  I've also noticed "lacquer" and "lacquering" to describe a finishing process which isn't entirely accurate either.

*"Acrylic lacquer". What the hell is that, anyway? Well, it's a blend of special polymers and inhibitors in a water base that features our patented ultra-violet ray protection by the addition of ...zzzz.... Those bulletins are tough to get through, huh?*

What was that?  I scrolled forward.  ;-)

*How does it go on, how does it rub out, does it seem like it's going to last?  One still has to do the experimentation. And follow those manufacturers directions! And each different finish has it's own quirks and behaves differently than others.*

Absolutely.

*Actually, I don't generally worry too much about various organic materials coloring with age. I try to work with natural wood as much as possible and I like how it ages. Nor do I mind samecoloring with age and use.*

Yeah, I don't particularly care for opaque finishes either, prefering transparent/translucent finishes the allow the grain pattern to remain visible.  I'll do opaque finishes when requested, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.  ;-)

*When I started in this craft, in the "restoration" end, I was encouraged to work toward particular colors of same depending on what look a customer wanted. This could mean painting the underside to lighten or darken a piece, or cobbling together pieces from older, but still sound bits of skin. Ultimately, that kind of "fixing" lost its appeal for me as I ended up doing more and more mounts for martial artists (and less money!). I still have a couple of nice skins that aren't going to go on just any sword, but the color of the stuff I regularly use is of little consequence to me. The structure of the tsuka is much more critical and interesting.*

Like you, the woodwork is more interesting (and important) to me, but I don't totally ignore the rayskin's color.  If it has a blotchy or "dirty" look to it, I try to "fix" it with dye or something.  I also adjust the rayskin's color if I think it will benefit the project's overall color scheme.

*But, I believe that water-born finishes are getting better and better.*

They are--at least according to the guitar-makers.

*And when you find that one opaque acrylic coating that will finish a saya acceptably, I hope you'll share .*

Sure, as soon as I find something even better.  ;-)

*Meantime, I'm sticking with polyurethane* 

You'll get no arguements from me.  I don't use polyurethane as much as I used to, but I still keep some in the shop so that it'll be there when the need comes.

-Robert

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