# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Chinese, South-East Asia (CSEA) >  two handed Chinese swords.

## C. Dayton

I have always been curios as to why there are so little two handed Chinese swords.

Any info on why did Chinese preferred a single handed sword?

----------


## josh stout

I wouldn't say that two handed swords are underrepresented in Chinese antiques.  Think of the dadao, podao, zhanmadao and other large sabers.  The dadao was the most commonly used edged weapon of the 20th C. wars in China.  

The question for me is, why are there so few Chinese Martial arts styles that use two handed weapons?  The weapons were out there, and commonly used, then why don't we see them?  I think it is a confluence of events.  The direct military training in the weapons disappeared as the weapons were phased out of the regular military.  Military style weapons were exchanged for light wushu weapons in the martial arts under Mao.  Diaspora martial traditions tended to downplay weapons as part of keeping a low profile in a new land.  Many traditions that were left relatively intact came from rural areas where single handed militia weapons were more common than the larger full size military weapons.  Finally, I think the romantic ideal of the lone fighter with his personal sword came to dominate the practice and depiction of Chinese martial arts.  This emphasized civilian swords such as the jian, and also emphasized practice with weapons that were more easily transportable and possibly concealed than a dadao.
Josh

----------


## Leigh Robinson

I know that Dr. Yang Jwing Mings Taiji Jian form uses a two handed jian. But I don't recall seeing two handed jian in any wushu or kung fu patterns.

----------


## F.Zara

Very interesting, besides the rare two handed jian, and few Daos (Miao Dao, zhanmadao) there are practically no two handed swords in Chinese history.  Only very big swords where two handed.

I wonder if there is an advantage to usign a single handed blade vs two handed.

----------


## josh stout

> Very interesting, besides the rare two handed jian, and few Daos (Miao Dao, zhanmadao) there are practically no two handed swords in Chinese history.  Only very big swords where two handed.
> 
> I wonder if there is an advantage to usign a single handed blade vs two handed.


Long handled jian like this one (http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...BFE5899100.jpg) are more common than true shuang shou jian.  By that I mean that jian with enough room for two hands were much more common than jian that could only be used with two hands. IE.facultative shuang shou jian are much more common than obligate shuang shou jian.

In the Qing military pole arms were quite common (http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...nt=0e79_12.jpg) and probably were used in many of the situations where long bladed two handed swords could be used.  It is cheaper and gives more leverage to put the reach in the handle instead of the blade.

In the late Qing/Republican period, two handed dadao/pudao were quite common.

http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...99___1084_.jpg

http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...rent=dadao.jpg

http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation357.jpg


The ring pommeled daodao and its variants was prevalent among rebels, militia, and regular military by the Republican era.  In the above picture, can also be seen a oxtail dao.  This one is typical in that it was designed as a one handed saber, but the handle is just slightly shorter than that of the dadao.  This was a common Chinese approach to make a one handed sword with room for two hands.  Once again facultative shuang shou weapons were more common than obligate ones.  A one handed sword has the advantage of keeping ones body further from the action, with the side turned to minimise the targets.  A two handed sword has the advantage of leverage.  As one can see from above the pictures, two handed swords did not necessarily have more reach than one handed swords.  Also many military sabers had room for a hand and a half, or even a full two handed grip.  Thus the advantages of both types were combined.

http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...9E98E8A385.jpg

So in many cases what we think of as single handed could easily be classified as two handed.  It is just that there is a one hand option as well.  

Once again I think we are seeing a bias against the two handed weapons that developed within the Chinese martial arts after Mao and the diaspora for contingent historical reasons.  I do not see this supported by the numbers of actual historical examples.

Also, the question seems strange.  If one thinks of other great sword civilizations like the Persians or the Indians, single handed swords abound.  I would certainly not say they have more two handed swords than the Chinese.  I think this question is a consequence of the historical processes that have caused Japanese swords to be seen as typical and the exemplar of what a sword should be.  I would say the question should be turned on its head.  Given the huge variety of sword types throughout the world, with obligate two handed swords generally only forming a minor percentage of the total, why are Japanese two handed swords so common, or at least viewed that way.  If I am wrong, and this question did not come from the pro-Japanese bias within the sword community, then where did this question come from?  My impression, is that when compared to the rest of Asia, Chinese swords are more often two handed than the average.
Josh

----------


## Robert Young

[quote]The question for me is, why are there so few Chinese Martial arts styles that use two handed weapons? The weapons were out there, and commonly used, then why don't we see them?[\quote]

Actually, there are still lots of Chineses Martial arts styles that practice two handed weapons like Guan Dao, ZhanMaDao, Da Dao (we called it Kan Dao), and Miao Dao. In Hong Kong, styles like Hong Gar, Choy Lit Fu, Jin Wu associations all have many two handed weapons. In Taiwan, almost major styles, northern or southern all have two handed weapons. 

I guess the reason people don't see them often is that they don't post their practice on internet.

Personally, I practice Chinese martial art from Taiwan. We practice all the two handed weapons mentioned above. They are still quite popular among Chinese martial arts society. Historically, Chinese Martial art people do NOT advertise publically. This may be another reason people don't see those weapons practiced on internet or any media.

Cheers,

----------


## F.Zara

> I think this question is a consequence of the historical processes that have caused Japanese swords to be seen as typical and the exemplar of what a sword should be.  I would say the question should be turned on its head.  Given the huge variety of sword types throughout the world, with obligate two handed swords generally only forming a minor percentage of the total, why are Japanese two handed swords so common, or at least viewed that way.  If I am wrong, and this question did not come from the pro-Japanese bias within the sword community, then where did this question come from?  My impression, is that when compared to the rest of Asia, Chinese swords are more often two handed than the average.
> Josh


Thanks for the detailed information Josh!   I didn't knew there where so many two handed Chinese swords out there.  I was forgetting about the "hand and a half" ones as a two handed models. The only two handed Chinese forms I have been fortunate to watch are Miao Dao. 




On a side note:

About the idea of the Japanese sword as the best:  It think this idea comes mainly from kids and people whose main source of information is anime and Highlander. That think the Katana is the end all be all sword that can cut every other sword.  Sometimes the Japanese bias in the comunity is way too strong to the point of being pointless. I saw how one person got flamed simply because he did not believe it was possible to cut 3 human beings through the chest with a katana.

----------


## Brian L. Kennedy

Two things I would point out are:
First, people tend to forget about the important place that shields be they rattan or some other material played in traditional Chinese military training. All the single handled saber stuff you see in modern times, I strongly suspect, originally the person held a shield in the other hand. Here is a video grab from a performance here in Taiwan of the Sung Jiang Battle Teams. (as a side note, the shields always have the Daoist talismans for good luck and protection on them.)




Secondly, the two major Ming Dynasty martial arts training manuals which we still have existing copies of and which depict sword usage both show either two handed sword work or sword and shield. Here is an example of that:



Even Republican era military manuals, like this one from Huang Bo Nien, focus on two handed use. Even if they are using a European type saber!



take care,
Brian

----------


## josh stout

Thanks for backing me up on this.  If two handed sword use is done by martial artists who keep it secret, while those that didn't keep it secret are gone, and the arts that traveled tended to eliminate the larger weapons, then one might understand why people think two handed swords are rare.  

The last picture from the training manual shows the typical "hand and a half" use that I think was the technique used with the majority of "single handed" swords.

I have seen the training manual pictures before.  Do you have a good source for good training manuals?  I hear you can get them in Taiwan... :Big Grin: 

Thanks,
Josh

----------


## Brian L. Kennedy

Hi Josh,
Yes, Taiwan is a good spot for collecting reprints of the older manuals. Mr. Liu and Lion Books are still turning them out, but at a slower pace. Oddly enough, one they have not reprinted is Huang Bo Niens book. 

take care,
Brian

----------


## Mark Milton

This is not my specialty, but from what I have read, after Mao came to power, the Chinese government basically started emphasizing modern, acrobatic Wu Shu martial arts over traditional martial arts.

I seem to recall an artical that mentioned this in some martial arts magazine back around the time the movie "Hero" was released in the states.....


  This is why we often see whippy bladed wu shu weapons focused on when the traditional swords used by Chinese swordsmen would have had VERY different characteristics...

----------


## kevin.feng

i think there's two possible reasons

1. the sword length
    if a sword is about 90cm or longer, then there's a a possibility the sword is two handed one

2. attack speed
    if you have ever tried to play different Chinese swordmanship, you may know the different between one-hand and two-hand arms is all about the coverage, attack speed and cutting power. It means you have to balance the trade-off between the 3 key factors base on your body condition also the competition situation.

Attached is one of my two handed swords for your comments.

----------

