# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  Swords & Sabers US Military Schools, Academies  and Inistitutes.

## T. Graham

The unusual M1902 saber thread seems to be headed in this direction, so I think it is time to start a dedicated thread. Military School (MS) swords cover a very wide range. They include the M1860 series in its many variations. The post ACW NCO types and of course the M1902.

The first specific USMA sword was issued in the 1840s. I will post one soon.

The example below is the 'traditional' style, military academy sword first used at the USMA at West Point about 1875.

This 'The' M.C. Lilley Co.,Columbus, Ohio sword was made for Agusta Military Academy 1880-1984 around 1900. The 'The' came into use about 1875, so it will help date.

It may have been noted, that I collect military schools swords. I have lots of them.
Many sword collectors have them and just do not know it. If you think it maybe a military school sword, post it.

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## George Wheeler

Tim,

Another good idea for a thread.  I sure there are some some nice military school swords residing in member collections.  

Here is one from mine.  A M1902 Officer style sword from Millersburg Military Institute.  This military school was founded in 1893 but the sword is post WWII.  It has the proper postwar black sword knot when the "brown shoe Army" changed over to black leather accouterments.  This sword has an outstanding art deco style eagle on the blade but pictures are difficult due to the highly reflective plated blade.

George

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## Glen C.

I have a question re: the early West Point swords, described as eaglehead pommel epee.

I have encountered both yellow and plated white examples. The yellow mounts do seem to fit those 1830s guideline but I am still not positive of these we find with the emblem of the Pallas Athena helmet and sword as shown in the 20th century coat of arms. The nickle plated examples I have encountered (and it may be the same one circulating) makes me wonder if it was later plated to be used in service later in life in white mounts.


Are they West Point swords at all? Different langet decorations do come up with other traits of this pattern of American epee but all seem to be of a French style remade for the 1830s and produced in Solingen.

click for bigger


Cheers

Hotspur; _there is also an excerpt of a discussion at one point about ssssssnake hilted eaglehead pommel special presentation swords for West Point_

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## T. Graham

> Tim,
> 
> Another good idea for a thread.  I sure there are some some nice military school swords residing in member collections.  
> 
> Here is one from mine.  A M1902 Officer style sword from Millersburg Military Institute.  This military school was founded in 1893 but the sword is post WWII.  It has the proper postwar black sword knot when the "brown shoe Army" changed over to black leather accouterments.  This sword has an outstanding art deco style eagle on the blade but pictures are difficult due to the highly reflective plated blade.
> 
> George


Hello George,  I have one like this, but with the smooth grip strap and a slotted tang screw. Eickhorn/Meyer made a lot of these custom etched blades for many schools. I have a few more that I will post. They started making this type in the 1950's. Then Meyer went to Spain and they now make them there. The 'traditional' cadet swords can have this feature. Below is a Millersburg 'traditional' from the 50's. Millersburg M I closed in 2006

There are pre WWII custom school swords and sabers, but not as elaborate.

When you shoot at something shiny, shoot at a slight angle. The best way is to shoot outside on a cloudy day, or in the shade.

I know that collectors really do not want to believe this, but at least ONE THIRD of swords made for the US military market, went to military schools. If you have a really beat up M1902, it was issued to cadet officers year after year. Swords suffering from "Brasso" abuse were likely used at a military school. Brasso should be banned. An M1902 bought buy a US Army or National Guard Officer would not be used enough to suffer much abuse, but would suffer because of poor storage.

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## George Wheeler

Glen,

I don't know the answer to your question but it is certainly a good one.  I think there is a lot that we do not know about the early swords of the US Military Academy at West Point.  

Along that line, here is a named somewhat generic "Military Academy" sword.  I suppose there would be no way to know if this cadet attended West Point or some other academy without finding his name on some obscure roster.  Some of these have the sword and helm design as seen on your sword but it seems use of this device was not limited to the USMA.

George

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## T. Graham

It is thought that this model was adopted about 1875. It is shown on page 160 in the Ames 1882 catalog as a Military Regulation model 543.

This is the earliest 'traditional" USMA sword in my collection. Made by The M.C. Lilley Co., Columbus, Ohio. It is personalize 'John S. Upham', who was Class of 1903.
It lacks the the helmet/sword logo. The first use of the logo I know of is 1899 on the newly adopted shako plate. By the way. before 1922 the helmet faced to it's left. (A'la, the pre 1941 USN eagle.)

These swords are easy to take apart. I noticed some interesting features; 
1. The tang threads were sawn down the middle and spread apart. This help lock the pommel on and discouraged disassembly.
2. The blade and maybe the scabbard were made in Germany.
3. The, mostly gone, gold finish is not a plating or wash, but a gold enamel or lacquer. I am going to see if I can reproduce that gold finish. Anyone have any ideas?

I am going to declare a *RULE*. If a traditional cadet sword does not have the initials U.S.M.A and or the helmet/sword logo, it is not a West Point sword. If it is unmarked for any other school, then it is a generic traditional cadet sword. The vast majority of cadet swords are generic. 
I personally own five USMAs and have photos of 4 more including a special.

I have lots of cadet swords and sabers, are there any requests? How about belts and buckles?

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## Glen C.

Bring 'em on, I say!  :Wink:  The more examples of buckles and belts that come along can distinguish them for others and keep them from falling into the ACW bucket of misconceptions.

In my travels yesterday I came across a short essay from Cole that is really not of this topic but while I think about it.

http://www.history.army.mil/html/mus...ms/survey.html

I had also encountered some old books on Google regarding West Point history and am still trying to retrace to my thoughts a couple of weeks ago about description of pre 1840 West Point swords. Thayer's presentation eagle I already know about and was done by Ames (I think). Abstracting from what I remeber reading about the 1830s eagleheads was just a sword of uniform character in yellow mounts and and eagle pommel.

There is a blurb on a few sites regarding the direction of the helmet and eagle crest. I think it was on the USMA org site I had been reading about some general histories and it had been prompted when coming across an old thread from forumite David Lewis Smith and his museum visit.

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...hoto-Intensive!!!!!

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...um-Visit-redux

The little Hickox book and the Hamilton history fopr Ames describe the form that becomes the sword we know as the USMA standard. I do though find reference to instructors swords and rpresentation swords as mentioned. One 1902 was listed recently as a graduating presentation sword for an officer. It was unclear whether that is a standard or a personal purchase for the graduate.

Cheers

Hotspur; _Shako plates are another sideline I look at back in the federal period while coveting the crescents_

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## Glen C.

While I'm wondering out loud; Are there any South Carolina Citadel swords of note?

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## Andy Needle

West Point Cadet Sword M-1872 to 1922 Complete History
1868 to 1922 Model 1872

I just want to start by stating the importance of this sword. The years it took to for the two major players Col.  A. B Benton, Chief of Ordnance and Head of the National Armory  in Washington and Gen A. B Dyer who was the man in Charge of the Springfield Armory  and  years it took then to design, develop and modify the redesign of parts from the regulation Musicians sword  and using the Ames Scabbard they starting in working in 1860 and transforming it in to what it really is today. This was not a simple project the materiel specification are mind blowing below is the officially complete description.

Approximately 30" long. The guard does not extend to the pommel to protect the hand, as is the case of the sabers, as the nature of its use does not necessitate such protection. The blade is made up of high carbon , oil hardening steel, forged, tempered, and straightened. It is nickel plated and buffed, the blade being about 6/10 inch in width at the guard and tapering to a narrow point at front end. The guard is made of bronze and has rectangular slot for shank of blade. It is gold plated and burnished on all polished surfaces. It is cast with an ornamental design of a coiled serpent on each end, forming an enlargement at the extreme ends of guard. The center of the guard contains an ornamental design with the initials M.A. about 3/4 inch high. The inside is cored to fit the shank of blade. The grip is made of nickel bronze. It is formed to fit the hand, with grooves running around the outside having the appearance of being wound with small cord. The pommel is made of gold-plated bronze with polished surfaces burnished. It is screwed on to shank of blade, securely holding guard and pommel in place after they are assembled to blade. The outside has an ornamental design of a spread eagle. The inside is counter-bored and tapped to take the end of the blade shank. The washer is made of leather, 0.07 inch thick. It is placed between the guard and scabbard to act as a buffer when sword is placed in scabbard. Complete with 29 1/2" metal scabbard - Army #4440. Scabbard is made of sheet steel, 0.035 inch in thickness, formed, and edges brazed together. It is polished, nickel plated, and buffed. It has a scabbard tip which is made of bronze, polished, and gold plated and burnished. The front end of the scabbard tip is slotted and the scabbard tip protector, which is made of sheet brass is brazed into it. The scabbard tip fits over the lower end of scabbard and is held in place by two small screws. The upper band is made of bronze, gold plated, all of the polished surfaces being burnished. The scabbard hook, which is also bronze, gold plated and buffed, is brazed to band. The scabbard linings, of which there are two, are made of wood and prevent scratching of nickel on the sword blade when inserting and withdrawing from scabbard. They also hold sword in place and prevent rattling. The mouthpiece is fastened to the scabbard by two screws, which also secure the upper band to the scabbard. The screws, of which there are four, two for upper band and two for scabbard tip, are made of brass, gold plated and burnished.proximately 30" long. The guard does not extend to the pommel to protect the hand, as is the case of the sabers, as the nature of its use does not necessitate such protection. The blade is made up of high carbon , oil hardening steel, forged, tempered, and straightened. It is nickel plated and buffed, the blade being about 6/10 inch in width at the guard and tapering to a narrow point at front end. The guard is made of bronze and has rectangular slot for shank of blade. It is gold plated and burnished on all polished surfaces. It is cast with an ornamental design of a coiled serpent on each end, forming an enlargement at the extreme ends of guard. The center of the guard contains an ornamental design with the initials M.A. about 3/4 inch high. The inside is cored to fit the shank of blade. The grip is made of nickel bronze. It is formed to fit the hand, with grooves running around the outside having the appearance of being wound with small cord. The pommel is made of gold-plated bronze with polished surfaces burnished. It is screwed on to shank of blade, securely holding guard and pommel in place after they are assembled to blade. The outside has an ornamental design of a spread eagle. The inside is counter-bored and tapped to take the end of the blade shank. The washer is made of leather, 0.07 inch thick. It is placed between the guard and scabbard to act as a buffer when sword is placed in scabbard. Complete with 29 1/2" metal scabbard - Army #4440. Scabbard is made of sheet steel, 0.035 inch in thickness, formed, and edges brazed together. It is polished, nickel plated, and buffed. It has a scabbard tip which is made of bronze, polished, and gold plated and burnished. The front end of the scabbard tip is slotted and the scabbard tip protector, which is made of sheet brass is brazed into it. The scabbard tip fits over the lower end of scabbard and is held in place by two small screws. The upper band is made of bronze, gold plated, all of the polished surfaces being burnished. The scabbard hook, which is also bronze, gold plated and buffed, is brazed to band. The scabbard linings, of which there are two, are made of wood and prevent scratching of nickel on the sword blade when inserting and withdrawing from scabbard. They also hold sword in place and prevent rattling. The mouthpiece is fastened to the scabbard by two screws, which also secure the upper band to the scabbard. The screws, of which there are four, two for upper band and two for scabbard tip, are made of brass, gold plated and burnished.

Not only did it take years to approve.

The instruction manual alone which explains how it is to be assembled in it's self was over 15 pages.  The technical drawing are works of art.

I will dispelled one rumor that this sword was never contracted out to the Ames mfg co. They did make one for private sale only. There was and always has been a very close relationship between between two for years. the fact that Ames made most but not all the model 1839/40 up in to the mid 1860's. I have to state this that there is no records that this item was ever contracted out, the Springfield production records and dates match delivery dates to the academy. the Ames records do not show official order's  or delivery dates for this item. I am more included to believe  that the first contract went to the Rock Island Armory for the model  M-1922 and Ames was the second.

Manufactured by the Springfield Armory, Springfield, Ma. Produced from 1868 up to 1920 exclusively for West Point Cadet Book Store exclusively by the Springfield Armory. 
Using the official description of sword as described in the 1878 printing of Springfield Ordnance Memorandum # 22 G.P.O. as shown above.

Markings:
Cross bar: M.A.
Blade Ricasso stamped U.S. Armory Springfield
Blade is etched with U.S.M.A." 

 both from the Springfield Armory. Please note that the head of the Pommel scroll with sword knot hole faces to the left as you view the face of the M-1872 sword. 
This was changed on the Model-1922 to faced to the right. 

Photo's of this change can be found on page 68 of Fredrick Todds book cadet Gray and another example is on page 10 figure 3 in Burton A Kellerstedt book Swords and sabers of the Armory at Springfield
though this can be confusing as the discrimination of photo # 3 describes another sword and does not match the discrimination.

The Springfield Armory was the only official maker of this sword till 1920 and is stamped Springfield Amory on the Ricasso.

The Armory production records show that* 253* Cadet Swords plus a few pattern samples were manufactured between 1868 to 1920 and used to 1923. 
There was another order for 100 scabbards to replace the one that were needed. 

Dates made and the number produced by the Springfield Armory.
1868 - 36 
1874 - 25 
1876 - 28 
1880 - 14 
1882 - 50 
1893 - 50 
1914 - 50 
Total: 253 
1920 - 100 scabbards only

That's 48 years in service for 253 swords. The swords were polished so often that most blade stampings were just worn off. 
In 1920 the Springfield Amory stopped making this sword and then it was produced starting in 1922 under contract to private makers. 
The first two makers were Ames and the Rock Island Armory which put a matching serial number on each sword and scabbard.
It would be very hard to a find virgin sword that came from the West Point Cadet Store because The bookstore returned the swords to Springfield who broke it down so the best parts were used to rebuilt the sword from its parts to be reissued again and again. 
*This sword was never sold to cadets.*

*Presentation Swords* and other special swords were custom made swords produced by many manufactures Like Lilley-Ames Company of Columbus, Ohio, Rock Island Armory, Rock Island, IL, M.S. Meyers N.Y.C. N.Y., Gemsco Inc. New York, Horstmann Company Philadelphia PA as well as a few more. 

Cadets were free to purchase and use there own swords, which they privately ordered from one of the many unofficial makers listed above. 
Officially this is a copy and is not a officially issued sword.
It would be very hard to find a M-1872 Springfield as the few that are around are owned by museums. 
There were a limited number of custom made swords produced. 
*Unless the blade is etched with with USMA or West Point Military Academy it would be impossible to prove it was used or made for a cadet at West Point.*

*Name Swords* 
Sword blades engraved with the cadets name are called named sword and less than 20% were made this way. 
This was much more expensive, most could not afford the extra money to buy it new. 
The condition of the M-1872 was not getting any better, so there was a good market among cadets to buy used swords and resell it to another cadet after graduation.
*Name swords could not be resold.*

*Swords of tradition* 
It would not be uncommon that presentation swords used by high ranking cadet officers were passes down swords with special history to the cadet that takes their command the following year. 
The best examples would be the Regimental commanders, Drum Major, Color Guard and even down to Company commanders were given the honor to use this sword for as long as they have the position. 
Which would make them *Swords of Honor*.

Cadets had no use for this type of sword in the Army, as officers, they carried the 1902 Army saber, so most cadets did not want to spend the money for a custom sword so they purchased a used one or took a issued one.


Past makers
Armory, Rock Island, IL
Ames, Lilley Company
M.C. Lilley & Company
Lilley-Ames Company of Columbus, Ohio
M.S. Meyers N.Y.C. N.Y.
Gemsco Inc. New York
Horstmann Company Philadelphia PA

*This article is 100% backed by references, and in unwritten tradition, If you would like to question the references or to the tradition please ask.*

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## Glen C.

Welcome aboard Andy

Your post answers some of my own questions about presentation and named swords. ONe pair of named swords from the 20th century circulates as from two brothers. That listingis actually the only instance I had seen USMA cadet swords with names etched, so I am assuming they were private purchase and like from a family sending them off to the academy.

Cheers

Hotspur; _I am pretty much a pre ACW collector but information on the board about later swords is always great to see and new knowledge to me_

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## Andy Needle

Hi Hotspur,
the way that I understand it, it was a wide open market until 1922 when the academy put there own logo on the sword in the way of their copyrighted crest into the center of the crossbar. 
After that everything went through the the cadet store or through issue, even custom presentation swords had to be ordered through the cadet book store, like the one given to each president.  

Family's were mighty proud to have one of there son's go to West Point, it does not surprise me that some family s even made payments because it means something to them and two named swords could even be Father and son or two Brothers. 
If it were not for the different makers there would be nothing from that time period. There is a good deal of difference between the quality from maker to maker as well as price.

Remember that this is not any issued sword it's custom made, is it worth a lot of money, hell yes it is and that depends on the make and condition of the item. The fact that the blade is clearly marked is really the only true guide to it belonging to a West Point graduate. 

Thanks

Andy; I've been collecting and processing information just on this swords history for years, I'm just now reaching out and sharing this and to open up and learn what I can.

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## Andy Needle

*West Point Sword flying sword blades*
There is a defect in some of the older newer sword because the specification where changed. The problem shows it's self unexpected surprising and in dangerous or perhaps deadly way.  
So the older the sword is the more likely the following will sooner or later happen again.
You all got to know when the command is given to draw saber, the cadets all at once and with all the gun-ho that would be expected grab their sword and pull it straight out, before they retreat it to there shoulder the problem is with the Tang it just let's go and the blade is a projectile and the cadet is only holding a handle. They fly straight and true and would go right through you. Then when the command is given to return sabers you know that it goes down all at once as hard as they can slam it home. This makes it weaker for the next time it's drawn. Other than the very small point is know to just brakes off the sword. just makes one wonder.

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## T. Graham

> While I'm wondering out loud; Are there any South Carolina Citadel swords of note?


You have but to ask. This, unique to the Citadel, traditional cadet sword was made by Eickhorn for Meyer. The 'Germany' is hard to see and would be covered by a leather buffer. The year 1958 is etched next to the cadet's name.
A rather funny thing is the hilt parts and the blade are all soldered together. Is this because of a 'fly apart' possibility? Another unusual feature is the molding on the top scabbard mount that is in relief between the hook and the throat. See the black arrow point. I have a lot of these sword and this is the only one with this molding.
Are more photos desired?

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## Andy Needle

Glen,
M.S. Meyers made great swords, They were making swords for USMA during that time period. But this is not the run of the mill military academy sword, this is a great example of the type of top quality work that Meyers did would do.
I'm not sure how the Citadel issued there swords or if they sold the swords to their cadets but I can tell you that I would be leaning towards your sword being a special order.  
Last note it was not uncommon for any military school to give out gifts to important guest or company commanders to get one as a gift from their command in that case it would be a custom Presentation sword like yours.
Andy

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## T. Graham

> Glen,
> M.S. Meyers made great swords, They were making swords for USMA during that time period. But this is not the run of the mill military academy sword, this is a great example of the type of top quality work that Meyers did would do.
> I'm not sure how the Citadel issued there swords or if they sold the swords to their cadets but I can tell you that I would be leaning towards your sword being a special order.  
> Last note it was not uncommon for any military school to give out gifts to important guest or company commanders to get one as a gift from their command in that case it would be a custom Presentation sword like yours.
> Andy


 Andy,  In the 20th Century, N.S. Meyer, Horstmann, Gemsco, and others, were sword importers and distributors, not manufactures. In the pre WWII period, few swords were being imported from Germany, so Lilley-Ames was the source. I do have a VFMA or PMC officers sword that was made by Horster and imported by Eby, Philadelphia. In the immediate post war period L-A and C.E. Ward continued to supply the domestic market through Meyer, Gemsco etc. By the Mid 1950's, Eickhorn, Weyersburg, Kirshbaum Cie. (WKC) and Horster all of Soligen, Germany, took over the market. By the 1970's The same importers were bringing in Swords made byn Marto and Bermjeo out of Toledo, Spain.

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## T. Graham

I looked into the 'fly away blade' problem. This is a Weyersburg, Kirshbaum Cie., Solingen, Germany, made USMA that is 20-30 years old. Note, the small screw. It is NOT a set screw. It goes into the pommel through the grip and into a thick grip ring on the tang that also supports the pommel, so the silver plated grip does not have to. Note the pitting on the stainless steel blade where it is covered by the buffer. Reassembly requires that the grip ring be at the correct height so the holes line up.

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## T. Graham

This USMA was made by Eickhorn, Soligen, Germany for N.S. Meyer. This sword has a stainless blade and dates in the 1960's. This system is similar, but it does not have the internal grip band. The screw connects the pommel to the grip only. The washers, split washer and nut are still keeping things together. Remember take the screw completely out.  
Also Eickhorn uses the one piece throat and hook band. WKC uses two separate parts. similar to the original design.

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## Andy Needle

It's been years since there has been a US military Academy sword Made in America, all have been made overseas and imported. 
This Sword is sold for less than $150.00 to cadets at the Cadet store far below the real cost. 
I would love to see all United States Military Academy Swords made in America.
Sold for a realistic price about  $500 to $600 dollars.
The problem is that no American Company is willing to submitted a bid the last time that it was put out for bid.

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## Andy Needle

> I looked into the 'fly away blade' problem. This is a Weyersburg, Kirshbaum Cie., Solingen, Germany, made USMA that is 20-30 years old. Note, the small screw. It is NOT a set screw. It goes into the pommel through the grip and into a thick grip ring on the tang that also supports the pommel, so the silver plated grip does not have to. Note the pitting on the stainless steel blade where it is covered by the buffer. Reassembly requires that the grip ring be at the correct height so the holes line up.


From what I understand is about 10 or so years ago the spec's were changed, and this is when the problem started. I know that there is a shortage and the Academy has been thinking about a new stronger sword but they have not put out the request yet. 
If you know of anyone here who could make them let me know and I'll pass it through.

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## T. Graham

> From what I understand is about 10 or so years ago the spec's were changed, and this is when the problem started. I know that there is a shortage and the Academy has been thinking about a new stronger sword but they have not put out the request yet. 
> If you know of anyone here who could make them let me know and I'll pass it through.


 
There is only one US sword maker and they could not make them.  Their blades and scabbards are imported from SW Aisa and they would not be able to handle the quality or quantity. Sword making is a very specialized industry. WKC made swords are as good as can be made.

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## Andy Needle

> WKC made swords are as good as can be made.


I agree Imported by Marlow White. 

This is what I've been told, about 10 or so years ago the Spec's where changed by the Academy and KWC made the changes. There have been problems since and the Academy thoughs were to go back to it's original spec's. 

The only other thing I can say is they have been getting pressure to have it made in America. Because of what it is and what it stands for.

I personally think that if they wanted to place an order with KWC they would of done so as there is shortage of them. 

The new issue is not a secret. 

When it will be made and sold it s another story, it's coming, the question is who is going to make it and what is it going to cost. 

When this happens I think the cadet store price will go up to $600.00.

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## T. Graham

When it will be made and sold it s another story, it's coming, the question is who is going to make it and what is it going to cost. 

When this happens I think the cadet store price will go up to $600.00.[/QUOTE]

I am an entrepreneur and manufacturer with some Industrial engineering training, so I kind of know what it would take to make swords in the USA. I also did some consulting at the (current) Ames sword Co. and know their capabilities and manufacturing methods.

Lets us make some rough assumptions.

4000 cadets at West Point(WP), of which 600 carry swords, but 400 carry a sword for two years. Some buy, or are issued a used sword and some buy a souvenir sword.
Estimated sword sales per year 300.
Now figure in VMI and The Citadel at 2000 cadets total, with 300 sword carriers.  Their total sales may be 200/year.
Add in the 30 or so private military schools. average 300 cadets ea. , total 9000. But some do not carry rifles much less swords, plus some use a mix of M1902's and traditional cadet swords (TCS), some only TCS and some only M1902s.  Total sales 500. But they are tight for cash, so no Made in USA swords for them.
There may be a few public high school JROTC programs using the TCS, but no collage SROTC program I know uses them. So let's discount them.
Rough estimated total 1000 TCSs. But, the tax payers will be only subsidizing the WP purchases, so 400 TCS is it, if one or more of the other schools participates.
Most, if not all the private schools will prefer the Spanish swords. The market does not know the difference between a Spanish, German or good quality Indian made sword.

Let's suppose that a US company is considering making a TCS at a $600 list price. Can WP buy direct from the manufacturer for $400 ea? The maker, being a nice patriotic fellow, will cost them out at $300 and have a $100 profit. That, times quantity of 400 (assuming other schools come on board) = $40,000. That will not cover the travel expenses of the CEO's mistress.
I doubt that WP, being a US Gov't entity will be able to buy direct. All the sales in the past, have been through importers and distributors. Congress could make an exception here.

I do not see it happening.

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## T. Graham

I have seen many photographs of cadets with Model 1860's, but this is the only M60 that I know of that can be connected to a particular school.
This sword is a presentation grade Model 1860, made By The M.C. Lilley Co., Columbus, Ohio. The blade tang is marked 'Made in Germany", but I think it only applies to the blade and bare scabbard. Assembly would have been done in Columbus. 
Special features include: middle level presentation grade scabbard mountings and celluloid tortoise shell grip. The etching is a generic pattern. Because it lacks a 'to and from', it should be considered a personalized sword.
This is very likely a cadet carry sword. If he was commissioned after graduation, he would need a model 1902.
Note; not all the hilt parts are brass. The The lower part that holds the 'spring and fall' lock is a low pressure, zinc alloy die casting. The 'gilt' was painted on.

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## Andy Needle

> I do not see it happening.


I know what your saying is true but there is more to it than that.
I will reply by private email in more detail.

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## T. Graham

This is the last USMA West point sword in my collection. Made by The Lilley-Ames Co. (L-A), just prior to WWII.

Notable features:

The USMA helmet & sword mark is a coined piece of copper soldered to the cross guard where the MA used to be. It had to be done this way, because fine sand castings and the skilled labor needed to finish the castings was not available.

The pommel has a cast in bulk head that is tapped for the threaded tang. This required a sand core that had to be dug out.

The blade has a nearly full length fuller. L-A must have had some blades left over from another line of swords. I have Eby marked TCS with an ACW NCO or Musician blade.

These swords cost more to make than a M1902. They required considerable polishing and in this case, by an inept polisher. When you have a monopoly, who needs quality control.

99% of the 'gold' finish is gone. It seems not have worn or been polished off, but just vanished.

Note: the Phillips head screws, which are correct for this period.

There is a hex nut to tie the grip and cross guard to the blade. This, would hopefully prevent blade 'flinging'.

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## T. Graham

I read an magazine article about George C. Marshall; Very few VMI cadets went in to the US Army. So, this VMI M1860 is a cadet carry sword.

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## Andy Needle

Tim,
You knowledge is golden to me.
Thanks

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## T. Graham

> Tim,
> You knowledge is golden to me.
> Thanks


My wife uses cruder metaphorical description.

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## Andy Needle

I think you're all in the same boat.

Andy

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## George Wheeler

Here is another M1902 style sword from Eastern Military Academy that was founded in 1944.  This postwar sword has a black leather sword knot and a custom etched blade.

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## T. Graham

I thought to examine some modern TCS to see if they had a different approach.

I first looked at a current production WKC. There appears not to be a screw through the pommel into the grip or tang. So I gave it a twist and it would not budge. I have at my disposal a 24 inch Crescent wrench a 6 inch Machinist vise. But, we will let this remain a mystery. I could contact WKC, but what fun would that be.

So I looked into the collection and found a Spanish made for N.S. Meyer. It can not date after 1992, so it could be 25 years old. I gave the pommel a twist and found I was not going to need a vise and big wrench.

This quality of this sword is as good as any other I have seen. There is no other fastening method, just the twist on pommel. But note the steel tubing that supports the grip.I find no fault with the Spanish swords They are of much higher quality than the Pre WWII Lilley-Ames versions.

I think the blade flinging is a problem with older swords that have been issued many times, taken apart many times and the brass threads in the pommel started to strip when over tightened during reassembly.

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## George Wheeler

Tim,

Here is another current USMA sword that is very similar in manufacture to your WKC.  This one was made by Eickhorn and has a different throat piece on the scabbard than the WKC but the construction of the one-piece grip is similar.  This one also has the small retaining screw in the pommel just under the sword knot slot.  The academy crest on the obverse guard is soldered on rather than cast into the guard.  Interesting that the Eickhorn bag is also blue but it is made in lighter weight cotton.  It is also interesting that Eickhorn reverted to their wartime large squirrel with sword marking for this sword.  This one is not named so it is one of those that could be resold upon graduation... which is how I got it.

George

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## T. Graham

George, there must be a dozen versions of the WP sword. Would you please send me additional photos for my book.

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## George Wheeler

I will be happy to do so as soon as the snow melts outside and I can get some good shots.

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## T. Graham

Tim Graham will be at Maryland Arms Collectors table X26. March 16, 17, 18. This is the best antique weapons show in the world.

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## George Wheeler

Here is another cadet sword from the New York Military Academy.  This one is a bit smaller than the others since it is a miniature.  This one is unmarked as to who made it or where.

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## T. Graham

Made by Ames for Bostwick. The hilt is a typical late M1860 with spring and fall. The scabbard is the steel ACW NCO type but with an 1860 style drag. It is personalized Lieut. ... Burton. I believe this to a cadet lieutenant because this if he was commissioned he would be carrying an M1902.
The typical late Ames generic etching pattern and the lack of fine polishing on the hilt look 20th Century to me. It is well made and practical for an academy that wants to suspend its swords with a frog. The cadet NCOs at this school my have carried TCSs.

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## T. Graham

I am assuming this H&S imported, (France?) US marked sword, was for a military school. It should date 1850 to 1863. It has some deluxe features, including hand applied resist blade etching on sides and back, plus gold wash. The only thing it is missing is a scabbard throat. 
I doubt that it is a child's sword because of the regulation details.
Because the scabbard was broken, I got it for a good price. Can you find the repair?
The fellow I bought it from thought it was a regulation M1850. I convinced him that unlike a full scale 1850, it was useless as a real weapon.
This is earliest sword that I can place into a military school category.

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## T. Graham

Here is a photo of the above sword compared with a Horstmann M1850 Foot Officers sword.

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## T. Graham

At first glance this seems to be a customized M1902. The only things that are 02 is the scabbard and the Eickhorn style blade etching.  The German marked blade, has a stopped fuller and is similar to blades found on those scaled down, inexpensive, German made, brass mounted cavalry sabers. M1902s have un-stopped fullers. The hilt is a nickle plated, brass M1872 Cavalry Officers type with a black, coated, fabric wrap over a wood and cord grip with a wire twist.
Imported or assembled by Wm. C. Rowland for Staunton Military Academy and it is dated 1914.
New rule: Based on a lot of observation; any military item marked Wm. Rowland, Philadelphia, was probably made for a military school.
I was told by a Staunton alumnus that Rowland was on the school's board and was also giving kickbacks to Staunton's president.
Bezdek has William C. Rowland, Philadelphia, 1875-1920. He was selling equipment to Staunton until 1937.

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## Roy Hamilton

Just a quick side note. I attended Brown Military Academy starting in 1954, they had just adopted the West Point style sword, having changed over from the M1902 saber the year before.  There were some of the 1902s around, and cadets being cadets, there were a few saber fights when on weekends when there were no adults around.  One weekend a couplke of NCOs were up to the games, and as one backed up the stair well he made a thrust instead of the usual hacking back and forth, the tip of the saber went through the branches of the guard,and pierced the web of his opponents hand.  Needles to say both NCOs were busted down a rank, after the looser got his stitches, at the infirmary.
If you run across the M1902 cadet sabers that are beat up, this is one of the reasons.
Roy

"There is only one tactical principal which is not subject to change.  It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time"
                                                                General George Smith Patton, Jr.  Class of 1909 USMA, West Point

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## T. Graham

There are two main causes of damage to swords: the first is poor storage conditions and the second is children. The third is neglect of maintenance; but a dirty sword is east to fix. Bent scabbards and nicked blades are much more difficult to repair. I love it when eBay listers promote there swords with battle damaged. The battle usually involves several little or even big boys.
Get the movie The Private War of Major Benson, Charlton Heston first staring role. It was film at St Catherine's Military Academy. One of the first scenes has a couple of cadet officers going a it with their 02's.
Studies done after the ACW showed that edged weapons did not statistically effect any battle. So real battle damage is unlikely to be found. Also, any damaged swords would go back to the quartermaster to be repaired or condemned.
At Valley Forge Military Academy where I carried an 03, not an 02 or TCS; I never saw skylarking with swords. Broom sticks on the other hand, with garbage can lid shields, often provided entertainment. It was best to armor up with a helmet liner and added padding.
I have several Brown M A items in my military academy collection.

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## Roy Hamilton

It has amazed me through my years of collecting militaria, how many other collectors had attended Military Academies or Schools.  I guess they did a good job of putting the military spirit in our minds, and blood.
By the time I went to BMA, I already had a great interest in the military and wanted to go to the academy, Boy was I surprised, by the end of the first week I was ready to head for home.  BMA was in the San Diego area, and home was in the California Central Valley, my mother told me over the phone, tuition was paid with no refunds, and I was there to stay.  It took a while before I got used to the West Point Plebe system, but to this day I have never regretted attending a Military Academy.

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## T. Graham

How you must have suffered through those retched San Diego winters. I must agree; public school would have been a disaster. I have some Asbergers and ADHD, so I needed a very structured educational system.

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## Roy Hamilton

T.G.
It was the monthly full dress parades that were bad, especially in the summer months.  We had a beautiful parade field, all grass, but the West Point full dress uniforms are wool, and in the San Diego sun standing out at parade rest you could here the rifles drop, but the cadets would just crumple silently.  We were told to just step over the fainted cadets as we marched off to pass in review.  I never saw an officer or NCO drop, so I guess their swords were safe.  
I would love to have a small collection of Military Academy, and School swords, but I am doing well to collect what I do.  Oh, to win the lottery!
Roy

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## T. Graham

Roy, VFMA was at is peak, 1966, when I was there. Imagine 1300 cadets; consisting of a 60 member band (considered the best military band in the country), 60 member 'field music' (drum and bugle corps), 2 full battalions of infantry, a mounted/artillery battalion with about 50 mounted on horses, around 10 on motor cycles, 4 M8 scout cars, 4 2 1/2 ton trucks each with a 105 howitzer and 11 International Harvester Scouts of which 4 are pulling a 75mm pack howitzer and 4 pulling an old British gun that seats two and looks cool, plus another 4 trucks each with a the 155mm light howitzer. Much of this was on loan from the PA National Guard.
In the spring we had at least one if not two or more full regimental parades a week. In 1964, because of the damage to grass, the parade field was paved. 
We would maybe lose one, so during officers call senior NCOs, not encumbered with a rifle, would gather him and rifle up and place in a truck. Every one watched each other and when you saw someone going down you reached out and helped him (no girls until 2003) down gently. You them re-assumed you position in the ranks. Once down, they quickly recovered, but were kept down until help arrived. These large parades had so much going on, that spectators did not see this happening. This rarely happened, because by April, everyone was completely trained and toughened up. During the week, we had two mess parades each day and additional hours of parade training drill on Saturday morning. Of course, weather permitting.
Our uniforms were a bit lighter in weight, than the WP type. They were custom made, so if you grew, they fit a bit tighter.
I was in B Company and Andy Needle was in D troop, so he can confirm all this.
This was easy for me, because when I went to public school I had to walk four miles, in the snow, barefoot, and it was up hill both ways.
Sadly, VFMA is about half of that today.
I have huge academy collection. Send me you personal email through my web site and I can send you photos. www.hand-tite.com

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## T. Graham

Roy, I had a rather elaborate description of a ca 1966 VFMA parade, hit a key and it disappeared. I do not have time time redo it. I have a huge military school collection. Contact me directly. handtite@roadrunner.com
It magically reappeared.

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## T. Graham

Background that maybe redundant.
There were once, hundreds of military schools in the USA. The enrollments could equal a half company to a large battalion. As is typical for most private schools funds were tight. 
Ames and Lilley made 'budget' swords that must have been popular because there are a lot of them on feeBay. Of course most are described as something else like "rare 1850 Civil War NCO sword", "Junior Assistant Surgeon sword", nonsense like that. Admittedly there is no reference book that shows or describes them; other than this forum. Plus there are lots of variations. Some of the listers are guessing and some want to embellish them into something they are not. Of course, feeBay does not care.
Here are three examples. They are similar with a plain painted steel scabbard, a rough cast or stamped drag and a frog stud. The hilts are usually two or three piece brass castings and may have a black painted cast brass grip with a simple wire twist. Pommels can be an 1860 type or a knights head. The familiar knights head pommel can be found on many non-lodge swords. (After so much time with Lilley and Ames, it seems they could make a special deal to use up excess or rejected parts.) The blade is usually about 1/8 thick and 5/8 inches wide and with a diamond section. They can also have an ovoid section.
The M1860 pommel with a brass grip cast in one piece can also be found with an 1860 type guard. On feeBay the are usually describes as a rare ACW, presentation grade, fresh out of an old estate and belonged to the a famous (pick a side) general  who lost both hands, so the hilt was tied to the stump of the longest arm and he rode into battle waving it with the rains between his teeth. I will post some later.
 Does anyone want to see some original straps to used to attach a sword to a stump? I have an estate fresh set that I will sell cheap.

New rule No.35 any US sword with a painted brass grip and a twist is not ACW and dates around 1900. 
New rule No.36: if the scabbard throat has a simple flat flange, the sword is probably post 1900 and can be as early as 1890. 
New rule No. 37: an M1902 with a simple flanged scabbard throat was made after WWII.

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## T. Graham

Awhile back on this thread, I presented a US Model 1860 Staff and Field Officers sword provided to a Virginia Military Institute cadet in 1904. Along that same line, is the M1860 S&F made The Lilley-Ames Co., Columbus, OH, Distributed by Wm. C. Rowland, Philadelphia, PA for The Citadel and personalized W.H,. Denaro, (Cadet) Major, Citadel (19)29.

Note; The M1860 was still in The Lilley-Ames catalog and here is another Rowland cadet sword.
The current Ames Sword Co still has the molds.

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## T. Graham

The pencil is pointing at a filigree suspender ring fitting soldered to the scabbard band of The M1860 discussed above. I have seen this fitting so many times on US made military and lodge That I have a new rule. 

US Sword rule no. 27,  95% of the sword scabbards with this fitting were made after 1900. I actually think it maybe 99%.

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## Raoul M

Hello, I'm new  to the forum I found this thread and was curious to know if any other like examples of this eagle head epee have turned up for discusion. I recently was offered one to purchase as a gift for my son a cadet (picture attached). He likes antiques and I thought a sword of the MA would be a nice graduation gift. Idealy something from 1816 as he's class of 2016. From what I'm seeing this sword is more of an 1830's item and not USMA. Any photos of examples would be helpful. I have read what the regulations state for cadet swords, but the 1816 era seems vague.  Did the cadets supply their own swords? 




> I have a question re: the early West Point swords, described as eaglehead pommel epee.
> 
> I have encountered both yellow and plated white examples. The yellow mounts do seem to fit those 1830s guideline but I am still not positive of these we find with the emblem of the Pallas Athena helmet and sword as shown in the 20th century coat of arms. The nickle plated examples I have encountered (and it may be the same one circulating) makes me wonder if it was later plated to be used in service later in life in white mounts.
> 
> 
> Are they West Point swords at all? Different langet decorations do come up with other traits of this pattern of American epee but all seem to be of a French style remade for the 1830s and produced in Solingen.
> 
> click for bigger
> http://files.myopera.com/3sails/albu...ojanhelmet.jpg" width=300>
> ...

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## Glen C.

Hi Raoul

Welcome aboard


I have still not retraced my way back to a paragraph about the eagles of the 1830s. Since you are looking at the earlier period, the closest descriptions I have come across were that the early swords were of one French fashion or another. I have found no confirmation as to a specific form.  Were they epee?  Broader bladed?  Clamshell guard and a face in the pommel? I really just don't know.  I know I do work at it just about monthly  and the best early information so far has come from old texts.

Good luck

Hotspur; _one of those lapses in documenting a text that will haunt me until finding it again_

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## T. Graham

I think it about time to discuss the post Civil War, bone grip sword on this thread. These are discussed in gruesome detail here, especially on page 4. http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...a-NCO-Patterns
This example was made by Ames and retailed by Shannon, Miller & Crane. Compare it to the pictured cadet.
 It is unfortunate that these sword are often called American Civil War (ACW) NCO. This early example, ca 1870/80 could also have been carried by post ACW militia. But that young fellow in the picture is obviously a cadet. Note the small flange at the bottom of the hilt. This feature will disappear on later versions of this hilt pattern. By the way, you will find this hilt pattern on Horstmann marked sword on the above link.
It is possible that Horstmann could have assembled it.

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