# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  The Post American Civil War Eagle belt plate

## T. Graham

I recently participated ia a thread on the U.S. Militaria Forum on a post ACW sword belt missing it buckle. http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/foru...al-sword-belt/. This thread discuses Military school swords and belt plates are mentioned. http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...litary+schools. So here we go.



*
A study of the M1874 eagle belt plate*

A study of the M1874 eagle belt plate

After the American Civil War (ACW) the enlisted ranks wore a US buckle and officers the EP. How well the regulation was enforced and/or expediency may have had an effect. Of course M1855 EP may have continued to be issued to the ranks. Officers, of course were required to purchase their own kit.
Here is a little known fact:  after 1902 the US Army officer uniform regulations only used the eagle belt plate (EP) when wearing FULL dress. Currently US Army officers will be seen wearing EPs with dress blues.  The post 1902 1895 undress uniform carried swords with an internal belt worn under the blouse. In the field swords were suspended from the M1904 field belt. Enlisted did not wear it. However, militia and National Guard units may not have followed the letter of the regulations. 
Below are pages from the 1912 M.C. Lilley catalog. These are the only pages showing an EP belt.

*The vast majorities of EPs were and still are used by military schools.*

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## George Wheeler

This is an excellent and often overlooked topic Tim.  Here is another thread on the USMF on the topic of sword belts and hangers.

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/foru...sword+%2Bbelts

This one includes the other post American Civil War belt and buckle styles as well as the M1874 belt plate.

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## T. Graham

Thanks George, I also  have examples off these belts in my collection. I decided to cover the EP here because the US Forum is so big and general.

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## Eric Fairbanks

Very interesting T the eagle reliefs are facinating in detail and diversity.  In looking at langets on federal period swords and buckles. Great thread Eric

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## T. Graham

I continue: There is a simple way way to separate the the older EPs from the later. This rule is has an (my) estimated accuracy of plus or minus 20 years using 1910 as a starting date.  There is a unique feature on post 1920 EPs that is often over look. All plates have an adjustment loop silver/hard soldered to them before plating. The earlier version (pre 1910) has nothing attached to it and the belt folds into it and is lock into place by a separate loose loop. See picture 5. You often find belts that are missing the loose loop and rely on a keeper only to maintain the waist adjustment.

The later and still used method is the loop with a floating plate with the belt wrapped around it to lock the adjustment. See 6 and 7 pictures.

A leather 'keeper' can add to the lock when pushed next to the buckle and there may be an additional keeper to position the excess belt. These are often missing.

Other features: Folded leather belts can be very early and the US Navy continues to use it, but not with leather. The US Army seems to have stopped officially using folded leather with the 1902 regulations. Folded leather is an approximately 3 inch strip of thin, finished, leather with both sides folded in until the edges meet, flattened and stitched. The reason this was done is because it is cheaper than using a thicker piece of belting that required edge finishing. You leather workers know what I mean. There is a long term weakness, because when wrapped around a waist, the thin leather is under tension and the inside is under compression. Some even cheaper belts were reinforced with strip of burlap sandwiched between the leather.
See pictures 2&3. This is an early 1900's folded leather cadet belt lacking any sign of ever having sword suspension. 

Picture 1 & 4 is a modern, cadet belt with a frog for the traditional cadet sword and would be replaced with a saber chain for the M1902. This belt is the modern lamination belt with thick leather covered by a stitched on, black synthetic. Pictures 1 & 4.

In 1921 the Army made the Sam Brown belt official. I may do more on it later.

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## T. Graham

[QUOTE=Eric Fairbanks;1215329]Very interesting T the eagle reliefs are fascinating in detail and diversity.  
You want diversity; stand by.

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## T. Graham

This should be considered pre 1902. Note the buckle has separate loop adjustment found on early belts. The separate straps are typical for the 1872 regulation swords. (M1860 S&L, 1872 Cavalry Officer, and the M1872 Artillery Officer.) Because it lacks branch colors, it is is for a field grade officer, which is major on up.

It could be worn under the 1902 regulations.

Note the wrinkle on the applied gilding. This is cause by the shrinking of the leather and is typical for most of these belts and cannot be readily repaired.

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## T. Graham

This is a company grade, infantry belt under the 1902 regulations.  There are no retailer marks.
Features to note are the snap-on suspension, the inexpensive stamped buckle with an adjustment loop plate.
The snap-on suspension was patented before 1902, but the distance between the snaps indicate it is set up for the M1902 saber. The scabbard rings of the M02 saber are 4 to 6 inches apart.
I would date this belt to the 1920-30's.

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## T. Graham

Features of note include the lobe shape chape, elaborate snaps, the English buckle that can dismount the eagle for polishing and the separate loop adjustment. I would date date this to pre WWI.
I can show the buckle in more detail if anyone wants to see it.

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## T. Graham

This 1930's belt has some unusual features: the buckle has the now standard loop plate adjustment and is marked 'Made in USA', the suspension ring can be removed, its marked Gemcraft and it lacks a chape. Note the steel staples holding the ends of the keepers together; this is a feature found on 20th century belts.

Always store these belts in the round.

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## T. Graham

This belt has an interesting mix of features. The buckle has the loop and plate adjustment, but the keeper ends are stitched together. The tear drop shape chape has to be an early feature.

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## T. Graham

The post WWII Infantry, company grade FD belt is simplified to the belt, saber chain and loop.  This is a high quality two piece plate. It could be recently made or 60 years old.

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## T. Graham

This is a very uncommon belt. I wonder how often an MP officer stood parade? Marked with the trademark Gemsco.

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## T. Graham

This New York national Guard FD belt could easily have an eagle plate attached. From 1882 till 1902 the infantry branch color was white.  Its is retailer marked, Baker & McKinney, New York, in business from 1864 to 1883. This belt could have been sold a few years after those dates.

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## T. Graham

Top get things started, consider that the majority of EPs were and still are, used by cadets. However many schools had unique belt plates. Before I go into gruesome cadet EP detail here are some plates school plates from my collection. If anyone wants particulars on any one plate, just ask. I have many others.
Note: several are used on white web cross belts usually with a breast plate.
This topic relates closely with this thread.
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...litary+schools
Now on to the cadet EPs.

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## T. Graham

Here are some facts to consider, some of which maybe redundant from the above.

There were over 300 military schools established in the US between 1870 and 1970; about 35 still exist.
Check this link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._United_States

During peacetime 1/3 of the market for uniforms, belts, insignia, swords etc. was for cadets.

If an eagle belt plate lacks sword suspension it is a military school plate. That basic EP belt on eBay is probably not Indian or Span Am war. However a loose plate could be. If the loop plate type, figure it to post 1900. If the belt is assembled with rivets, eyelets, staples or a two piece stitched assembly, consider it to be post 1900. ref to the second picture on the

At some school all the cadets wore one; it made the uniform blouse fit better.

The EP is still being made.


Photos 1 & 2 show a standard adjustment on a plain leather belt the stitched clasp loop indicated it is pre 1900.
Photos 3 & 4 is folded leather with a fixed adjustment bar as part of the loop. Note the stapled keeper, so ca WWI. This seems to have gone out of style after WWII. It is found on Culver Military Academy non EP belts.
Photos 5, 6 & 7 is a modern cadet belt with frog for the traditional cadet sword. The top layer is a synthetic material stitch to a leather backing, that does not need any re blacking that can come off on to the uniform.

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## T. Graham

Did you know there are sellers on feeBay that are deceptive? Yes, it is true. Here are some example of dubious eagle plate belts.

This one I made as an example is a Uniform Ranks (UR) Knights of Pythias that I swapped plates. It is for illustration only and has been put right.
Pictures 2,3,4 and 6. The picture manager needs to dealt with.

The second one is a Knights Temple belt created to deceive. What give this one away is the *three* suspenders. A US military belt only has two.
See pictures 1,5 & 7.

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## George Wheeler

Tim,

I just want to say what an excellent thread this is.  I have always liked accouterments and your collection examples of belts, buckles, and hangers are both wide and deep.  You are also doing a great job of sorting out the confusion.

Since you mention the three hanger belts I would like to add something.  These are most often for fraternal swords as you point out.  They can have some military association though.  Below is an example of a fraternal sword that is entirely regulation for the society including the initials of the owner on the grip and his name which is etched on the blade.  It turns out that the owner was a Confederate Veteran who wore this sword after the end of the war.  Confederate Veteran associations did not wear swords with their uniforms but some photos will show them in their Confederate Veteran uniforms wearing their old wartime swords or fraternal swords such as this.  So, a military association.

Union veterans did wear swords with their Union Veteran association uniforms.  There were regulation Grand Army of the Republic (GAR) swords with three scabbard rings and belts with three hangers.  These GAR swords are listed in catalogs such as Ames as "Military Association" swords.  So, again swords and their attendant sword belts with a military association.

Keep up the good work on your thread.  I am enjoying learning many new things.

George

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## Eric Fairbanks

Tim I agree with George this is a very interesting and informative thread. I do have two questions, perhaps simple to the studious.  Why did fraternal and clubs begin using the chain type sword hangers? Also why did Confederates not wear swords with their uniform in their organazitions? Was it a US Government regulation? Regards Eric

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## T. Graham

Hello Eric and George, I think I can answer these questions. The Grand Army of the Republic GAR  was started by mostly Masons. Their ritual and ceremonies (r/c) followed a Masonic style. I am in the Sons of Union Veterans of the Civil War SV/SUV and we also follow similar r/c. The GAR did not have any regulations for uniforms, swords, belts etc., so there is considerable variation. They could wear what they wanted. The GAR sword had three rings so they bought a fancy belt with three chains or leather suspension. However, most GAR members wore a black leather belt with two leather suspension. 
Douglas W. Roussin's Book Plates, Belt and Swords of the Grand Army of the Republic and the Sons of Union Veterans of the Civil War[/U] (ISBN: 978-0-615-24761-8) covers this in considerable detail. But it gets even more complicated, because I have GAR/SUV things not in Doug's book. But every US collector should have a copy. It is on feeBay.
As to why the Confederate Veterans CV did not wear Swords the only reason I can think of is economic/political. Economic because the South did not recover until the start of WWII. Political because they would have to buy them from original Yankee sources i.e. Ames Sword Co.  I think the average CV could not handle the expense. Unlike the SV/SUV the Sons of the Confederacy does not have a specific style of sword. There is some irony here; that Yankee The M.C. Lilley Co., Columbus OH made KKK swords. The govt would have run into real problems if it tried to regulate veterans or lodge groups. Of the six post ACW Republican presidents, five were members of the GAR.
The SUV has a para-military sub group, the Sons of the Veteran Reserve (SVR) to provide a military presence at Civil War events and you may see SV accouterments there. But, my SVR unit, The OHIO Naval Brigade SVR, (protecting the north coast since 2013) wears 1864 pattern US Naval uniforms and accouterments. Now I have to post a photo of me in all my glory.
As to the chain suspension, I think it was a marketing decision. They looked cool. GAR member often bought their regalia (lodge stuff) form lodge retailers. I think most chains are 20th century. Modern lodges swords use leather and/or fabric suspension now. The lodges were a huge business until 1949 when it was single handedly destroyed by Uncle Milty.
Does this answer your questions or have I muddied the waters?

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## Eric Fairbanks

Tim, the answer was much simpler and less political than I could have imagined.  For all I do not know it fits very well with what I do know of the social and economics of the South. Very interesting thanks. Eric
Great photo

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## T. Graham

> Tim, the answer was much simpler and less political than I could have imagined.  For all I do not know it fits very well with what I do know of the social and economics of the South. Very interesting thanks. Eric
> Great photo


I can provide an autographed copy for a modest fee. Imagine the collector potential or some unscrupulous feebayer could sell it as original.

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## T. Graham

I am planing to run for high public office and have hired this security firm. These highly skilled, professional killers are properly equipped with state of the art Flobert weapons systems and unformed to blend in with the crowd. When on parade the Officers wear an eagle belt plate.

Remember this picture when temped to buy an eagle plate for $50 or more.

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## T. Graham

I recently pick up (it was just lying around) this saber and it came with a belt. This presentation saber to a Providence RI  militia officer, tailor and draper was presented in 1899. It came with a considerable amount of paper about the fellow that has been forwarded to the Rhode Island Historical Society. I photographed it all in case a later buyer wants it. The sword is from Ames and was retailed McManus & Co., Providence and it can be presumed the belt, made by The M. C. Lilley Co, Columbus was retailed by the same dealer. It is a lodge style belt, but since it was part of a presentation to a militia officer and has only two suspenders, I will consider it a legitimate military related assembly. The eagle plate has the adjustment bar as part of the loop.
I hate to save paper as it is a pain to store properly and keep connected to the saber. The folks at the RIHS will have no trouble connecting their information to the saber as needed. I may ever donate the saber to them, I can use a tax deduction.

I may start a thread on the Post ACW cavalry officers sabers if there is an interest.

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## T. Graham

Here are a couple of cuties. Made in Hong Kong, likely in the 1960-70's. Note the silvered officer version has been defaced by some unscrupulous person. What is interesting is the serial number. They actually a quality product with attention to detail, but are set up for a conventional, 1 1/2 wide belt and could be used by a cadet.

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## J.G. Hopkins

Here is a nice image of an eagle belt plate:

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## william fisher

good evening all very interesting thread ..i have i think a army maybe m1851 saber plate before i go on with this i am not good posting anything on this web site. the plate i have is brass and the side laural wreaths are copper i polished one of them they were dark color also the eagles wings are streched straight up ( 11 and one )and the eagle has no type of shield covering his breast and the breast is worn and so is his legs and he is standing on some arrows with the heads facing right and the back side has a about 1/2 wide or so prong (keeper) thank you for any help you can give me bill .. also is there so place on line that may show this style of buckle  i found one place but not to helpful again thanks for any help you can give me the front of this buckle looks realey worn all his feathers worn off

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## T. Graham

> good evening all very interesting thread ..i have i think a army maybe m1851 saber plate before i go on with this i am not good posting anything on this web site. the plate i have is brass and the side laural wreaths are copper i polished one of them they were dark color also the eagles wings are streched straight up ( 11 and one )and the eagle has no type of shield covering his breast and the breast is worn and so is his legs and he is standing on some arrows with the heads facing right and the back side has a about 1/2 wide or so prong (keeper) thank you for any help you can give me bill .. also is there so place on line that may show this style of buckle  i found one place but not to helpful again thanks for any help you can give me the front of this buckle looks realey worn all his feathers worn off


Hello Bill the  M1851 deserves it own thread. They are still in production, so photographs is needed. I would start a thread if I had any.
Do you have a good digital camera?

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## william fisher

hi T. Graham  yes my wife has cell phone that takes pictures possibly will  that  due ?  ah while back i tried to post some picture an had a LOT of problem s trying to up load them,  then Dan R helped me out I e-mailed him the pictures and i got a good answer from him possibly we can do this the same ?? ....  bill  p.s last time i tried posting some sword picts it was a mess and never got through

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## T. Graham

This plate has clues that indicate it was on a company grade full dress belt. Note the parallel wear under the adjustment loop. This is were the gold plated, copper wire rubbed against the finish on the plate.

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## T. Graham

This unusual example is Indian wars period belt is a company grade "staff" officer, because the branch color is black. This is new to me; anyone see it before.
When received, it was completely apart and the plate was plain brown. I dissembled the plate by removing the two nuts and cleaned the wreath and gently cleaned the rest. The gilt on the brown leather belt had become separated because the leather continued to shrink (3/8 inch to the foot) and the gilt wire cut through the thread. I completely removed it and tacked it back on with fabric glue, which can be removed if necessary. There is a picture of the 'before".

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## George Wheeler

Tim,

Black branch color would be either Staff or Chaplain Corps.  In theory, Chaplains do not wear swords (although I have seen such presentation swords) so your belt would most probably be for the Staff Corps.  

George

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## T. Graham

In interesting photo of a marching band with 1874 pattern eagle belt plates. I bet over one million have been made.

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## T. Graham

This period tin type has two senior militia NCOs with Ames, catalog no.500 swords and eagle belt plates. Ca. 1870-80's.

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