# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  This is a Claymore

## David gray

A Scottish Lowland Claymore, I was told and have no reason to doubt, 1550, would someone like to try and match this running wolf with a makers name? and possibly confirm the date? Likely Passue, the grooves seem to be filled with brass or latten

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## David gray

The hilt is 17inches long and the quillion block is 14inches.

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## David gray

It's 56inches long and weighs 2.2 kgs.

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## David gray

There are more marks like this on the blade but too worn to make out.

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## David gray

The blade is 2 inches at the widest point.

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## Jonathan S Ferguson

"Lowland claymore" is a bit of a contradiction in terms. "Lowland two-handed" (or the Scots equivalent "twa-handit") would be the correct term.

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## David gray

Not at all Jonathan, originally in the Scottish gaelic "claidheamh mor"  or great sword. This really is a twa handit Lowland style Claymore. There was also the Clamshell Hilted Claymore and the Highland Claymore with it downturned quillions was often hand and a half. Some refer to Basket Hilts as Claymores but I don't, to me there has allways been a distinction.

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## Glen C.

I'm not sure how large this image will render here as an attachment but it was readable when I downloaded it. it does zoom well. It might be helpful in narrowing a date.

This sword is smaller than some of the modern reproductions, where being big seems to sell to some. I don't know if these were attributed diectly to Scot makers or if entire examples were being imported. The side rings do show up on a lot of large German swords by the early 16th century. I would think (at the least) that was a definite influence, even if being made in country.

I don't recall that the wolf was attributed to a specific Passau maker, rather that it was just an indicator of geographic origin. we have seen examples here of early 1400s swords with inlays of the wolf. My understanding is that it was also generically copied, as were other marks of excellence.

Cheers

Hotspur; _Some of the old sword blades seem nearly as crisp as when made_

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## David Lewis Smith

i believe it is a running fox, and that could be Krupp
I am not 100% sure on this, and not sure where i read that

Glen?

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## Arne S

Nice two handed sword, also called Bidenhänder or Bihänder. I agree on your dating, Ca 1550. Probably closer to 1560 than 1540, based on the pommel's size and form.

The sword has a form and size that conforms with German/North European heavy two handed swords used during the period by Landsknechts.



The function would be as seen above, to be deployed as part of the front in the Tercio to cut way into the pikes and/or halberds of the opponents Tercios.



A Bidenhänder can be seen in the right part of center above.

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## David gray

Thanks for all the replies, it would seem there is more to say this is German than Scottish. It looks Scottish and the fella that sold it 40 years ago in Scotland said it was Scottish but other than that it's German. Oh well I drive a VW, Landsknechts fine too. My son changed the weight the other day it was right to start with, 2.2 lbs, how did he do that? I was hoping the wolf could put a little more light on it but there just isn't enough there to match.

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## David Lewis Smith

the arms trade at that time was much the same as it is now, it is in fact a 'claymore', it just happens to be imported from Germany.  Germany was exporting  sword blades well in to the early 1900's  for use in combat .

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## Arne S

> the arms trade at that time was much the same as it is now, it is in fact a 'claymore', it just happens to be imported from Germany. Germany was exporting sword blades well in to the early 1900's for use in combat .


Within the borders of Europe, it could be argued that the arms trade during the renaissance was more internationalized than the arms trade today.

I believe the hilt and blade have a German/North European origin. Off course it could have seen service in Scotland, but I don't think the hilt type conforms with what is regarded as a Claymore. Unless you classify any two handed sword used in Scotland as a Claymore - classification is off course also a result of interpretation.

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## David Lewis Smith

true as well Arne.    
I do think we get wrapped around the 'trifoil' on occasion.   
Regardless of how it got to Scotland, it is a really nice sword and can easy be the center piece of any ones collection

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## Arne S

A very nice piece indeed David ! I find it charming that the grip has not been restored and when cleaning the blade, the one that did the job left enough patina in the ricasso area to indicate that the blade has been cleaned and was once completely aged patinated as we now see the hilt.

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## David gray

[QUOTE=Arne S;1020023]Within the borders of Europe, it could be argued that the arms trade during the renaissance was more internationalized than the arms trade today.

I believe the hilt and blade have a German/North European origin. Off course it could have seen service in Scotland, but I don't think the hilt type conforms with what is regarded as a Claymore. Unless you classify any two handed sword used in Scotland as a Claymore - classification is off course also a result of interpretation.[/QUOTE 

As far as I know ( after 13th c) all two handed or hand and a half swords as in the case of some Highland Claymores, were all Claymores. The lowland is on your left, Highland on the right.

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## David gray

This is a two handed clam shell hilted claymore belonging to Alan Cameron 16th Chief of Clan Cameron. Crafted in 1588.

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## David gray

> true as well Arne.    
> I do think we get wrapped around the 'trifoil' on occasion.   
> Regardless of how it got to Scotland, it is a really nice sword and can easy be the center piece of any ones collection


That is the bottom line David, nicely put, doesn't matter if it is totally German, looks like Scottish Lowland. If it did have clear origins to Scotland I likely couldn't afford it. Thankyou all

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## Jonathan S Ferguson

> Not at all Jonathan, originally in the Scottish gaelic "claidheamh mor"  or great sword. This really is a twa handit Lowland style Claymore. There was also the Clamshell Hilted Claymore and the Highland Claymore with it downturned quillions was often hand and a half.


I realise that "lowland" may well be a misnomer (i.e. it may have seen use in the highlands also), but if the type really is culturally "lowland" then to call it a "claymore" seems a little odd. Gaelic being the language of the Highlands of course. It also confuses matters more, since there are already two types with legitimate claims to the name (see below).




> Some refer to Basket Hilts as Claymores but I don't, to me there has allways been a distinction.


They do so based on the evidence. There are far more historical references to "claymore" as applied to the basket hilt, and those relating to the two-hander date from the 18th century, not at all its heyday. So both have claim to the name, but in fact it's the basket hilt that is the "true" claymore.

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## Arne S

Thank you Jonathan ! You sound sober, so you might know: What was the origin of the name claymore and when was it first used ?

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## Jonathan S Ferguson

I'm thinking of the chapter by Claude Blair in Caldwell's "Scottish Arms and Fortifications", which is handily paraphrased on wikipedia;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claymore




> The first instance in which a written usage of this word is after the beginning of the 1715 uprising, coming into much wider use during the uprising in 1745. During this time, two handed swords were not used so this mention is likely to have been referring to the basket-hilted sword. The document naming basket-hilted swords as claymores states that men were armed with rifles, pistols, dirk, targe (shield) and a sturdy claymore by his side. There is a later document (July 11th, 1747) describing the Princes escape through the Highlands following Culloden that uses the term broadsword and claymore synonymously.

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## David gray

First off you do realize that not everything in Wikopedia is fact? Any Tom, Dick or Harry can add info to that site. Perhaps the reason you think Baskets are "the true claymore" because you never read anything prior to the basket coming into style in 1700. I quite believe Victorian era romantics played a role in the name Claymore being used for every Scottish sword, they went a bit daft in that way. The sword itself was used after 1700 but it was going out of style in favor of baskets. I don't know when the name was used first but it was being carried in the late 1200's. These are the claymores I talk about, the original holder of the name, not a single handed basket hilt. I have yet to see in all the antique sites on this computer, a basket hilted claymore offered for sale. I see the odd claymore, not many any more, mostly I see basket hilted broad or back swords. Like I said before some folks do call basket hilts, claymores, but I don't, there is a distinction. They are not the same thing, you can tell just by looking.

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## David Lewis Smith

David Gray brings up a good point.   The word claymore has become a generic term for swords Scottish of the two handed kind and the basket hilted kind.  Note that any one handed cross hilted sword from Scotland is usually called a 'medieval Scottish sword' 

Claymores are both really.  Keep in mind this is opinion  mostly.  Basket hilted claymores are adaptations from mainland Europe, just as the two handed variety with trifoils are simply a Scots twist on two handed swords 

Is every sword that comes from or was rehilted in Scotland  a Claymore? No

but baskets and trifoil two handers are.  

After all are not most of the terms we use today adaptations of Victorian terms for swords?

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## David gray

[QUOTE=David Lewis Smith;1021735]

Claymores are both really.  Keep in mind this is opinion  mostly.  Basket hilted claymores are adaptations from mainland Europe, just as the two handed variety with trifoils are simply a Scots twist on two handed swords 



but baskets and trifoil two handers are.  

If by "trifoils" your talking about the ends of the cross bar as in the Highland Claymore above these are quatrefoils.

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## Glen C.

There is an old article off the front page here that offers a perspective on it.
http://swordforum.com/fall99/fighting-methods-1.html

There are some other interesting articles found in the 1999 efforts of an online magazine.
http://swordforum.com/magazine/

Cheers

Hotspur; _folk generally think of the big swords first_

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## David gray

Hi Glen thats very interestesting even the 2nd and 3rd time reading it. We were discusing this when I was a boy and William Wallace was one of my heros (long before the movie)and here we still are. The true Claymore for me is the first one, the big one. I titled this "this is a Claymore" because I knew someone would want to say otherwise, never fails.  The disagreement continues! Great Fun

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## David Critchley

This is one of those "build your own quandary" situations isn't it.
As collectors we build a systemised nomcalature picking and choosing terms taken from all over the place and then discuss why it doesn't always fit properly.

We are happy to use the term Claymore (a more general term I can't imagine) but shy away from the term "Irish hilt" which is just as correct for a basket hilt of the 17th C. Irish being synonymous with Gaelic. Neither do we call a 1796 LC a "scymeter for Light Dragoons" even though Horseguards called it just that when placing orders for them with Birmingham manufacturers.

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## David Lewis Smith

> Hi Glen thats very interestesting even the 2nd and 3rd time reading it. We were discusing this when I was a boy and William Wallace was one of my heros (long before the movie)and here we still are. The true Claymore for me is the first one, the big one. I titled this "this is a Claymore" because I knew someone would want to say otherwise, never fails.  The disagreement continues! Great Fun


I would say that if you wanted to discuss what a claymore is and is not than that is how you should have titled your thread.  Titling your thread with the intent of staring a discussion is one thing,  titling your thread  with the intent of 'knowing some one would say other wise'   and replying to posts with 'you sound sober' is another thing called trolling.  Trolling is not "great fun"

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## Arne S

No trolling intended from side. However I was hoping that using the word sober could and would sober the thread up a little.
Something I can see that you David also see necessary, from your last post. But I think you missed the target. 

Yes there used to be lots of trolls in Norway but I hope am not one of them  :Smilie:  At least not here today.

I believe that I have been specific to the two handed sword aforementioned. 

If the word sober in the context used by me is regarded as unsuitable language on the forum, I will off course conform with the policy of the forum. 

As this is not a contribution to the subject matter of the thread. I suggest that if you or others disagree, we can take that per pm. If at all necessary.

Anyway, as a apology to the forum for staying off the forum's subject matter - in reply to others leading the way. I am posting:  "Scottish Norwegian Danish Basket hilt". A little "screw louse" title seems appropriate right now  :Smilie:

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## David gray

> I would say that if you wanted to discuss what a claymore is and is not than that is how you should have titled your thread.  Titling your thread with the intent of staring a discussion is one thing,  titling your thread  with the intent of 'knowing some one would say other wise'   and replying to posts with 'you sound sober' is another thing called trolling.  Trolling is not "great fun"


Someone allways says otherwise thats just a fact. I didn't deliberatly troll for an argument but nae sayers are allways out there.

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## David gray

I didn't read anything bad into what Arne said he could've said "you sound fairly smart" "you sound like you know what your talking about" "you sound sober". You have to be so carefull not to offend anyone's feelings.

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## M. McWatters

For Arne--where can I find a copy of that woodcut?  What book is it from?  What battle is it?  Great piece of work there.

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## Arne S

Thank you David  :Smilie:  

You have good a good eye for art McWatters ! 

The woodcut is a work of the Renaissance artist Hans Holbein(1497-1543). It attest to the savage when huge Tericos of halberdiers crash into each other resulting in a maelstrom of battle, and its ghastly savagery followed by casualties on both sides. 

I believe that the woodcut is from the Italian wars(1494-1559). The "Bad War" woodcut has been reprinted in a number of books dealing with Renaissance warfare. 

Hans Holbein is a well known artist. He was not particularly known for military art. I think his most known woodcuts are found in his book with 41 woodcuts, and the name "The Dance of Death". 

www.artchive.com/artchive/H/holbein.html

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## David Lewis Smith

> I didn't read anything bad into what Arne said he could've said "you sound fairly smart" "you sound like you know what your talking about" "you sound sober". You have to be so carefull not to offend anyone's feelings.


I am not worries about offended feelings, consider just another post of my opinions about what SFI is for and Not for.

"argument" carries an unfortunate negative connotation these days, there is nothing wrong with an argument that is well thought out and based on facts.  

If you wish to argue that only a two handed sword is a claymore, Lay On, however I think that a quote from a reliable source  such as , "Jonathan S Ferguson 	 I'm thinking of the chapter by Claude Blair in Caldwell's "Scottish Arms and Fortifications", which is handily paraphrased on wikipedia;"  cannot be discounted as any tom dick or harry.  Particularity  when tom dick and harry quoted Caldwell's book.

this comes down to 6 of one, half dozen of another.  

It could also be as silly an argument as who would win a Highlander with a two handed claymore or a Landesknecht.

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## David gray

Claude Blair could well have been talking about the big swords when he mentions claymores he doesn't describe a basket, just because they were not used in great numbers any more doesn't mean they were not being used. I have no wish to argue, all I said was my opinion, the same opinion I've allways had. The big swords are claymores and even though folks call baskets claymores I don't, opinion again. Look on the bright side you can call them all claymores if you like I don't mind.

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## Jonathan S Ferguson

David, everything I could think to say has been said by others. I am simply basing my own take on the available evidence. I understand that people will choose different names accordingly, and that as long as they make themselves understood, all is well. By turns, I hope you can come to realise that "you only have to look at it" is not a reasoned argument, and bald assertion is not fact.

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## David gray

That claymores are claymores and baskets are baskets is my opinion. If I was painting a room blue and got half way through it and switched to yellow do I still call the colour blue because I like the name blue or do I call it yellow? I really thought the Scots would have more imagination than to call baskets claymores just because they stoped making claymores. I'm Scottish so I can say that without hurting feelings

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## David Lewis Smith

> That claymores are claymores and baskets are baskets is my opinion. If I was painting a room blue and got half way through it and switched to yellow do I still call the colour blue because I like the name blue or do I call it yellow? I really thought the Scots would have more imagination than to call baskets claymores just because they stoped making claymores. I'm Scottish so I can say that without hurting feelings


My middle name is not Lewis by pure happenstance,  
what does the root word on Gaelic mean ? 
Is it 'big sword'
is it 'head chopper' 
is it M18A1

if you say and spell _claidheamh mòr_ you might have an a point for a great sword (Oh I did not intend to pun here but its to late !)  but if you say claymore it is a bit more murky

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## Jonathan S Ferguson

> That claymores are claymores and baskets are baskets is my opinion. If I was painting a room blue and got half way through it and switched to yellow do I still call the colour blue because I like the name blue or do I call it yellow?


Opinions need to be backed with evidence, or they hold no weight. IF we're talking in an historical context here, i.e. what the weapon(s) were called when they were in use. We can only determine this from the historical sources. Whether we then use the historically correct term is up to us - there are plenty of weapons that are not known by the most historically accurate name. Of course, once we've determined this, there's no compulsion to use it. You're perfectly free to describe the two-hander as a claymore and the basket hilt as just that. That's a perfectly correct way to talk about them. It's your denial that the basket-hilt was known as "claymore" that does not stand up to scrutiny, and, veering wildy back on topic, your claim that the sword in the OP is a "claymore".




> I really thought the Scots would have more imagination than to call baskets claymores just because they stoped making claymores. I'm Scottish so I can say that without hurting feelings


Then I'm afraid you simply aren't familiar with the literature. Check out a copy of "Scottish Weapons and Fortifications" - the basket hilt was being called a claymore, by highlanders and outsiders, in the 18th century, as was the two-handed sword. In fact, there is more evidence for the former than the latter. For all we know, "claymore" wasn't applied to the to the two-hander until that time (by which time it was no longer a battlefield weapon).

I'm sorry this has gone somewhat off-topic, but it seems you expected this from the outset. Hopefully it's an instructive thread for lurkers nonetheless.

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## Arne S

As I brought up the word sober earlier in this thread I have once again turned to the bottle for answers.......

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## David gray

Some good things come from the bottle. To me this backs up what I said earlier, the ninteenth century and Victoria's new found love for things Scottish. Reintroducing the kilt and claymore and neither was the same as it was. What a lot of cafuffle just because some rebel in the colonies doesn't want to use the word Claymore on the end of his basket hilted broadsword. How about a wee dram Arne? Will you let me call it a two handed Lowland Claymore Jonathan?

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## David gray

> My middle name is not Lewis by pure happenstance,  
> what does the root word on Gaelic mean ? 
> Is it 'big sword'
> is it 'head chopper' 
> is it M18A1
> 
> if you say and spell _claidheamh mòr_ you might have an a point for a great sword (Oh I did not intend to pun here but its to late !)  but if you say claymore it is a bit more murky


over my head

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## David Lewis Smith

Arne that is blended whiskey and as such is Never to be Trusted.   

Only a Single Malt's word would be trusted, blends are simply uncivilized 

 :Big Grin:

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## David Lewis Smith

> over my head


Lewis Of the Isle of Lewis, That is where half my fraternal family comes from, the other of my fraternal family is from just north of Inverness "Smith"

as to the other. the first two are supposed translations of Claymore, as you cans see they are neither.
the second is an anti-personal mine called a claymore.

the Gaelic  _claidheamh mòr_ can be translated great sword.
I am sure you get the point of the pun now.

any how, the term is proper  for both types of swords.  As for believing the marketing label of a third rate blended whiskey I could counter with Lt Commander Scot's comment in _Day of the Dove_  when reporting on the Arms room where all the phasers had been turned to swords.   He picks up a basket hilted sword and says "A Claymore"!

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## David gray

Hello David it was the murky bit on the bottom I didn't get. I know both are used but not by me it doesn't even sound right, Basket Hilted Broadsword Claymore, one word too many. Basket hilted backsword great sword, sounds just as bad.

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## David Lewis Smith

I think the evidence  of usage stands against you.

The bit of Scots Gaelic  at the bottom could support your argument or simply mean, 'this is a great sword and i am really happy to have such a great sword'.  

I dont think it means that, it probably does mean a 'great big honking English chopping sword' but common use made it mean all swords.  It is rather like the 'Roman Short Sword'  the Romans did not call it that, they used a word that meant 'sword'.  

Icepick:  _Bring me my broadsword and clear understanding_

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## David gray

> any how, the term is proper  for both types of swords.  As for believing the marketing label of a third rate blended whiskey I could counter with Lt Commander Scot's comment in _Day of the Dove_  when reporting on the Arms room where all the phasers had been turned to swords.   He picks up a basket hilted sword and says "A Claymore"!


I would think the label would be subject to legal issues, surely they wouldn't tell a fib in print? Besides I'll believe anything that backs my position. As for Star Trec thats just theatre. You are right about one thing though the single malt is the best at least 12 years old. 
I'm not sure about this but I think the Romans only had the one sword, a Gladius, so there was little confusion over names.

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## David Lewis Smith

> I would think the label would be subject to legal issues, surely they wouldn't tell a fib in print? Besides I'll believe anything that backs my position. As for Star Trec thats just theatre. You are right about one thing though the single malt is the best at least 12 years old. 
> I'm not sure about this but I think the Romans only had the one sword, a Gladius, so there was little confusion over names.


you miss my point, later on people called the Gladius 'short sword', while Gladius does not translate directly in to 'sword' that is what it meant in common usage.  

You can use what you like to support your postion and use poor logic to discount what supports others, the fact will remain just that, a fact of usage.  

I will return the ball to your court with this question, if the Scots did not call basket hilted swords Claymores, what did they call them?  

Don't just answer broadsword or backsword, show the supporting documents just as you have asked others to show it

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## M. McWatters

> Commander Scot's comment in _Day of the Dove_  when reporting on the Arms room where all the phasers had been turned to swords.   He picks up a basket hilted sword and says "A Claymore"!



I'd be glad to argue it with the finest engineer the galaxy has seen (RIP) and wee nip of that bottle.


"You'll find no small glasses in this house." --Hagrid

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## David Lewis Smith

> I'd be glad to argue it with the finest engineer the galaxy has seen (RIP) and wee nip of that bottle.
> 
> 
> "You'll find no small glasses in this house." --Hagrid


Not to highjack the thread, but Rest his Soul, i think he would never drink a blend, here, then or or in the hear after

Raise my bottle to both Actor and character  (beer tonight lads)

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## M. A. Beardmore

I'm a little bemused as to what the argument is here?  I'm leaping in at the end so if this a jovial micky take then forgive my misconception.

A Claymore is the Highland version of the Hand-and-a-half or Bastard sword dating from about the 16th century.  Images of one can be found here:

http://www.armor.com/2000/catalog/item100.html


The Basket hilted single-handed sword, commonly misnamed the "Claymore" by the Tourist Board (thanks to C19th water muddying) is a later development.  Indeed, pictures of one can be found here:

http://www.swordforum.com/fall99/armour-class.html.

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## David gray

> I will return the ball to your court with this question, if the Scots did not call basket hilted swords Claymores, what did they call them?  
> 
> Don't just answer broadsword or backsword, show the supporting documents just as you have asked others to show it


"British Military Swords" by John Wilkinson Latham page 30, plate 29 a Basket Hilted Broadsword, present day, He doesn't mention the word Claymore in the book. Broadswords would be my answer and I don't believe I asked anyone to show documents.

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## David gray

You are so right M.A. Beardmore and I have some more documentation for David Lewis. These are from "McIan's Costumes of the Clans of Scotland" printed in 1845. Keep going for more I can't fit it in one post. So as early or late depending how you want to look at it they were calling basket hilts broadswords. This is before the tourist board of course.

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## David gray

The first writting describes this man.

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## David gray

another broadsword

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## David gray

and now for a reality check on what a claymore was in 1845

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## David gray

they didn't spell it the same though.

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## David Lewis Smith

ill get back to you later on this evening heading to work now dave.

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## David Critchley

> I think the evidence  of usage stands against you.
> 
> The bit of Scots Gaelic  at the bottom could support your argument or simply mean, 'this is a great sword and i am really happy to have such a great sword'.  
> 
> I dont think it means that, it probably does mean a 'great big honking English chopping sword' but common use made it mean all swords.  It is rather like the 'Roman Short Sword'  the Romans did not call it that, they used a word that meant 'sword'.



*Mor* is an adjective denoting size  David, it's from the same celtic root as the Welsh *Mawr* which is better translated as Big.


Icepick:  


> _Bring me my broadsword and clear understanding_


(Heavy Horses is a better album though) :Big Grin:

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## Jonathan S Ferguson

> I'm a little bemused as to what the argument is here?  I'm leaping in at the end so if this a jovial micky take then forgive my misconception.
> 
> A Claymore is the Highland version of the Hand-and-a-half or Bastard sword dating from about the 16th century.  Images of one can be found here:
> 
> http://www.armor.com/2000/catalog/item100.html
> 
> 
> The Basket hilted single-handed sword, commonly misnamed the "Claymore" by the Tourist Board (thanks to C19th water muddying) is a later development.  Indeed, pictures of one can be found here:
> 
> http://www.swordforum.com/fall99/armour-class.html.


Let's put this one to rest, shall we? I see David trying to show exactly this - that the use of the word as applied to the broadsword is a Victorian thing. I'm afraid that this is pointless. It's like picking up a Coke can from your desk with a use by date of Feb 2009 (or whenever) and claiming that Coke was only named as such on that date. If you were trying to determine when Coke was named, you have to find the earliest references to the name. Same here. I've already pointed David to the relevant book, but in the spirit of the internet, let's lay the relevant history out here;

Once again, from Claude Blair's article/book chapter;




> ...forty or fifty stately fellows in their short hose and belted
> plaids, armed each of them with a well-fixed gun on his shoulder, a
> strong handsome target, with a sharp-pointed steel of above half an ell
> in length screwed into the navel of it, on his left arm, a sturdy
> *claymore by his side*, and a pistol or two, with a dirk and knife, in his
> belt


-"The Loch Lomond Expedition with some short Reflections on the Perth Manifesto", 1715.




> I immediately drew my sword, and cried *CLAYMORE!* Cluny did the same, and we ran down to the bottom ditch, clearing the diagonal hedges as we went.


-"Marches of the Highland Army" by Lord George Murray (his own memoir, first recorded just after the '45)

Blair then cites a series of quotes from the "Lyon in Mourning" by Forbes, compiled slightly later (1748). You can check these for yourself online.




> ...delivering up his good *claymore* and his fine pistol...





> ...having got himself provided in a *claymore*, durk, and pistol...


And showing that "broadsword" and "claymore" were already synonymous (referring to Prince Charlie);



> ...a suite of Highland clothes with a broadsword in his hand.../...After the Prince had got himself equipt in the Highland clothes with the *claymore* in his hand...





> ...they wear a broad Sword, which they call a *Clymore* (sic), a Stroke of which would be


-"A Full and Particular Description of the Highlands of Scotland", 1752.




> se langs *claymore* pe po my side,
> I'll nefer marry tee, Mattam.


-"Had awa' Frae Me, Donald", 1760.

It should be clear from the date and more importantly the context (e.g. "by his side") of each of these that what is being referred to is the basket hilted broadsword, not the two-handed Highland sword.

Which was also known as "claymore"...



> ...See here a *Cly-more* (sic), or great two-handed sword...


-A Tour in Scotland and Voyage to the Hebrides", 1772.

Here's the clincher;



> ...and his *Glaymore* (sic), which was wielded with both hands, and is of a prodigious size...The broadsword now used, *though called the Glaymore* (i.e. the great sword,) is much smaller than that used in Rorie More's time.[/b]


-"Journal of a Tour to the Hebrides with Samuel Johnson", 1773.

Blair concludes by pointing out that the largely Gaelic-speaking Cameron Highlanders of the early C19th were using the word "claymore" despite the fact that the official British army term was "Highland" or "basket" hilted.

Bottom line - you can call it whatever you like, but you certainly can't claim that the basket hilt was somehow not a claymore. History shows otherwise. All of the above pre-date McIan's spurious paintings and descriptions, which, if anything show the beginning of the rise to dominance of "broadsword" and "basket-hilt" over "claymore" that ended up in the denial of the legitimacy of "claymore" by ill-informed Victorian writers. For this reason it's ironic that you would invoke such a source. Those I've given are both pre-Victorian and pre-"tourist board".

For interested readers, there are various ways around the confusion resulting from the dual-use name, but Blair suggests using *"two-hand claymore"* and *"basket-hilted claymore".* Those preferring to avoid it altogether can apply "claymore" to just one of them, or to neither of them - and still be correct.

Returning briefly to the original topic;



> Will you let me call it a two handed Lowland Claymore Jonathan?


I can't make you do anything, David. I'm simply suggesting that "lowland claymore" is a contradiction in terms, since claymore (and the original Gaelic) was always applied to Highland swords (of both types) for obvious reasons. If you're looking for compromise, you could actually say we don't know how widespread that type _might_ have been in the highlands as well as the lowlands. But yours would still be a misleading neologism in my opinion, especially as you don't know the provenance of this particular example. I'm not trying to do you down here, David, it's a wonderful looking piece. This is purely in the interests of accuracy and clarity. And of filling my lunch break of course.  :Wink:

----------


## David gray

These pictures show what the writter was talking about in 1845, 100years after Colloden, describing your claymores as broadswords and claymores as claymores. I sugest when Claude is writting he is talking about claymores and broadswords, perhaps even mixing them up. If the broadsword was called a claymore why didn't they call it so in 1845 the term should've been used by then if they were using it when you say.

----------


## David gray

this is not quite a full basket

----------


## David gray

It wasn't till after 1845 they opted to call broadswords claymores. There are shorter claymores worn on the side and I do have a picture of one but duty calls and I go, but this is a broadsword.

----------


## justin king

The literary evidence points to the term being applied to both types of sword, this has been clearly shown here and was known to many of us before this discussion. Some may prefer to apply the term to one or the other in modern usage, but without specific and exclusive evidence for the origin of the term this argument can linger indefinitely with nothing but opinions and feelings to make it worthwhile. If anyone has evidence that is clear, specific, and is known to pre-date the literature already quoted previously, then by all means share it and put the argument to rest.

----------


## David gray

For another look at a broadsword go to any site that sells Scottish swords and you'll see Scottish basket hilted broad or back swords not claymores unless they're the big sword, and there's lots of sites out there. Why does John Wilkinson not even mention claymore in his book? but he does call them basket hilted broadswords?

----------


## J.G. Hopkins

Jonathan F. has made a clear case for applying the term "claymore" to basket hilts.  He has demonstrated through multiple primary sources (from the 18th century) that "claymore" was used interchangeably with "broadsword" to describe basket-hilted swords.  John Wilkinson was an accomplished scholar of antique arms, but he is not a primary source and therefore he does not have the final word on what is or is not a claymore.

Jonathan

----------


## Mark McMorrow

> John Wilkinson was an accomplished scholar of antique arms, but he is not a primary source and therefore he does not have the final word on what is or is not a claymore.


Perhaps Mr. Wilkinson simply opted not to use the term at all in order to avoid the same sort of controversy that seems to have manifested here?  :Wink:

----------


## J.G. Hopkins

> Perhaps Mr. Wilkinson simply opted not to use the term at all in order to avoid the same sort of controversy that seems to have manifested here?


 :Stick Out Tongue:   Well met, Mark.  Well met.

----------


## M. A. Beardmore

I have to say that I may well be in the process of fulfilling my 'learn something every day' quota.

Jonathon, I was going to ask if you could point me to the appropriate reference works so I could have a read on the background myself but I just noted a long post from your good-self above :tup:.

It'd be a great courtesy if you could PM me the book details tho', I would be far from averse to trying to obtain copies for research.

Already, however, I can see from what you quoted that the term was applied more loosely than I envisaged in earlier writings.  I shouldn't be surprised as you get the same thing with other weapons and artifacts - particularly when looking at written works that are not either texts by historians or primary sources.   Poets and 'gentlemen scholars' are sometimes a little casual with their terminology  :Big Grin: .

Plus, of course, sometimes a codification of terms does not occur until much later.

Anyhow, thanks for shining a light on a misconception I've held for along time.

----------


## Glen C.

> i believe it is a running fox, and that could be Krupp
> I am not 100% sure on this, and not sure where i read that
> 
> Glen?


The Krupp (sorry, no umlaut) family is first mentioned in merchant guild records at the end of the 16th century and not truly associated with making steel until the end of the 18th century. As thw wolf of Passau goes back at least as far as the 14th century, association seems slim in the original context. They were never cutlers, or blade makers.

Fulvio Del Tin did use Krupp CK55 steel in his reproduction blades up until sometime in the 1990s when he switched over to the equivilant of 6150. He also did use the running wolf of Passau on some of his reproductions. Perhaps that is where you have read of a connection.

The book entitled _The Arms Of Krupp_, by William Raymond Manchester,  is an interesting read and it filled a few weeks of lunches when I worked for the publisher. I used to spend that time in the warehouse archive stacks and it was one title that drew my attention. Originally published by Little, Brown & Co. in 1968, I believe it is again in print as a paperback.

Cheers

Hotspur; _I see some hardcover copies out there through the booksellers_

----------


## Jonathan S Ferguson

> It wasn't till after 1845 they opted to call broadswords claymores. There are shorter claymores worn on the side and I do have a picture of one but duty calls and I go, but this is a broadsword.


David, I'm saddened that you won't do me the courtesy of acknowledging the evidence I've posted, but luckily it speaks for itself regardless. There are grey areas in this argument, but "claymore" being historically applied to the broadsword is not one of them. I have to wonder why you fixating on the 1840s - those quotes jibe perfectly with those I've posted - "broadsword" was concurrent with "claymore" for the basket-hilt, and only really fell out of favour when the military fixed the definition, and certain arms writers decided arbitrarily that "claymore" should only be applied to the two-hander (hence your references). But I don't think there's much more I can add at this point.




> I have to say that I may well be in the process of fulfilling my 'learn something every day' quota.
> 
> Jonathon, I was going to ask if you could point me to the appropriate reference works so I could have a read on the background myself but I just noted a long post from your good-self above :tup:.
> 
> It'd be a great courtesy if you could PM me the book details tho', I would be far from averse to trying to obtain copies for research.
> 
> Already, however, I can see from what you quoted that the term was applied more loosely than I envisaged in earlier writings.  I shouldn't be surprised as you get the same thing with other weapons and artifacts - particularly when looking at written works that are not either texts by historians or primary sources.   Poets and 'gentlemen scholars' are sometimes a little casual with their terminology .
> 
> Plus, of course, sometimes a codification of terms does not occur until much later.
> ...


No need to thank me, this was work done by other people much more knowledgeable and experienced than me, notably Claude Blair. But I'm happy to be of service.

I've sent a PM, but for the benefit of anyone reading the thread, the "Scottish Weapons and Fortifications" book is referenced over on myarmoury.com;

http://www.myarmoury.com/books/item.php?ASIN=0859760472

Unfortunately it only seems to have got the one edition, and is tough to get hold of.

----------


## David gray

Ok Jonathan I'm bleeding bad you got me, I give, it's very humbling to find out I've been wrong about this all my life. You are very convincing sir and have given me some interesting and useful reading material to get hold of, or try to. All I can do is look on the bright side I've aquired more claymores. 
Best Regards

----------


## David gray

Before everyone says "not him again" I'm on the other side now. David Lewis asking me to find documents was a good idea it forced me to read my own books. So just stick it out a bit longer and read these. This is from the same 1845 book.

----------


## David gray

This is the last one but I won't promise, I might find more yet. From Frank Adam's "The Clans, Septs & Regiments of the Scottish Highlands" this book has 620 plus pages but they spared a few lines at the bottom of one page to say this. I apologise to everyone for being so stuburn, set in my ways and going around with blinders on.

----------


## A.Ducote

> As I brought up the word sober earlier in this thread I have once again turned to the bottle for answers.......




Now that, my friend, is an intoxicating explanation of the term. I see all the proof that I need.  Its not the first time that I've had the mysteries of the world solved by looking into a bottle of booze. :Big Grin: 

See, all you guys had to do was sit down and have a drink and the issue would have been resolved.

Andre

----------


## David Lewis Smith

Mr Gray well said.
I am sorry i did not do the same as you, I have a few books that i could have scanned in time permitting.  Your dedication to your idea and your love of swords is very admirable.  

Now if some one would take that darned blended whiskey photo down, Ach Blended is for heathens and harradens  :Big Grin: 

Signal Malt or Nought says I!

----------


## David gray

> I would say that if you wanted to discuss what a claymore is and is not than that is how you should have titled your thread.  Titling your thread with the intent of staring a discussion is one thing,  titling your thread  with the intent of 'knowing some one would say other wise'   and replying to posts with 'you sound sober' is another thing called trolling.  Trolling is not "great fun"


David Lewis, 24hrs later, now I understand your beef, I did this all wrong, I should've just started a new thread and asked the question. Instead in went into it with a faulse-hood I recieved from my father and took to be gospel untill now. I even had the right info in front of me for years and never read about it or conveniently forgot it due to some sort of brain fart, or maybe I just wanted to believe my Dad. Trolling sounds a wee bit too "kinky" for me. I'll end this by saying I really felt like I learned something and thank you sfi for being here. Lang may yer lum reek. Glenmorange, 20years old, drinks on me you have to get here tho. Thx for your kind words of understanding, I do love long pointy blades for sure, short ones too, anything pointy really, even just sharp, heck they're mostly dull and I still love em, God help me! when you get to my age they're better than sex, mmm well maybe not.

----------


## Arne S

As I feel that I have to clear my "bad name and good reputation" after posting a bottle of poor blend:



Just so that there is no missunderstandings on where I stand on this delicate "edgy" issue. The bottle that is standing to the left is what I drink and what is under it is what I smoke  :EEK!:  Yes Cubans (mabye moderator have to edit that one, if swordforum.com does not want to be banned in the us?)

Anyway, I haven't figured out what to do with the less than $10,- Bottle of blend yet. If I serve it to my guests It will be "bad name and reputation", that I will have to clear up next.

----------


## David Lewis Smith

> David Lewis, 24hrs later, now I understand your beef, I did this all wrong, I should've just started a new thread and asked the question. Instead in went into it with a faulse-hood I recieved from my father and took to be gospel untill now. I even had the right info in front of me for years and never read about it or conveniently forgot it due to some sort of brain fart, or maybe I just wanted to believe my Dad. Trolling sounds a wee bit too "kinky" for me. I'll end this by saying I really felt like I learned something and thank you sfi for being here. Lang may yer lum reek. Glenmorange, 20years old, drinks on me you have to get here tho. Thx for your kind words of understanding, I do love long pointy blades for sure, short ones too, anything pointy really, even just sharp, heck they're mostly dull and I still love em, God help me! when you get to my age they're better than sex, mmm well maybe not.



I have added a fourth to the trinity, but look at my thread on my house.  heh.  I have a Big Honking Claymore from Kriss Cutlery to go with them now and you will see my love for all things pointy as well.

SFI is a great place to find out the answers to questions, no real beef with how you started your thread, just an observation at the time.  

Dig back through the old threads in the Scotland forum and you will find photos of Claymores to make you drool, both basket and twohanded 

Cheers
Dave
who will be up to collect a wee dram some time, I will bring some fishing rods as well.

----------


## David Lewis Smith

> As I feel that I have to clear my "bad name and good reputation" after posting a bottle of poor blend:
> 
> 
> 
> Just so that there is no missunderstandings on where I stand on this delicate "edgy" issue. The bottle that is standing to the left is what I drink and what is under it is what I smoke  Yes Cubans (mabye moderator have to edit that one, if swordforum.com does not want to be banned in the us?)
> 
> Anyway, I haven't figured out what to do with the less than $10,- Bottle of blend yet. If I serve it to my guests It will be "bad name and reputation", that I will have to clear up next.


Come to my house lad, We will still smoke some Cubans, and I will have to turn you on to Indios from Honduras, but I will fill your cup with good Isly Signal malt, or some other un-adulterated whiskey.  

Icepick;  _if the army sends me where i can smoke Cuban Cigars, I am going to smoke Cuban Cigars heh, and this is my current favorite 
_

----------


## M. A. Beardmore

Nice to see this thread ended up well and that some of us walked away knowing more, more accurately, than we once did. :rei:.

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## Thom R.

I have been staying out of this one  :Smilie: , but of course its kept me coming back all week.  Just one minor note, there was a mention of Wilkinson not using the term "Claymore" for their basket hilted swords, well, that is actually not correct.  I have the log sheet for Wilkinson 36011 for August 1898 when Robert Carnegie signed for his baskethilt and it is entered into the book as "Gordon Claymore"

just FYI,  tr

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## David gray

> I have been staying out of this one , but of course its kept me coming back all week.  Just one minor note, there was a mention of Wilkinson not using the term "Claymore" for their basket hilted swords, well, that is actually not correct.  I have the log sheet for Wilkinson 36011 for August 1898 when Robert Carnegie signed for his baskethilt and it is entered into the book as "Gordon Claymore"
> 
> just FYI,  tr


Ach man just as I was relaxing ye cut me again!  Thanks for that bit of info Thom. I was only talking about that one book in particular "British Military Swords" by John W.L. that doesn't mention claymore but does broadsword, I'm sure he had his reasons. Maybe if you'd come forward sooner you could've ended this sooner and saved a lot of blood? Is there a good story behind Robert Carnegie?

----------


## Jonathan S Ferguson

> This is the last one but I won't promise, I might find more yet. From Frank Adam's "The Clans, Septs & Regiments of the Scottish Highlands" this book has 620 plus pages but they spared a few lines at the bottom of one page to say this. I apologise to everyone for being so stuburn, set in my ways and going around with blinders on.


No need to apologise David, we've all been there at one time or another. At the end of the day it was just a point of fact - it needn't affect what you call the things, as a basket hilted broadsword is still just that!

----------


## Thom R.

well here is my take on it now that the dust is settled a bit, and btw it was a nice discussion in which i don't see any need for any apologies.  now first off, my mother was a native gaelic speaker, but my father couldn't speak a word so i picked up a little, but in no way am i a speaker of gaelic.  i can read it, with dictionary at hand, but if i was in a pub in galway i would probably get too befuddled to speak it.

there have been some interesting statistical studies done by linguists on european languages - including english - that clearly show that language complexity in everyday speach has been on a steady decline since the 1600s (long before television). that is, today people use fewer words in order to communicate - particularly when it comes to adjectives and adverbs. one way this manifests is with the use of words that can have a lot of different nuances of meaning, for example, the word "great". over time certain words, again, adjectives in particular, have become substitutes for other words, that is, the synonym list for certain words has become very large over time. linguists have a name for words like this but i can't quite recall what it is.  "great" is one of those words - look it up in a thesaurus and you will find quite a long list of possible synonyms.

so typically, as i understand it, in gaelic the word "mor" refers to great as in big, large, i.e. physical dimension. whereas "iontach" means great as in stupendous, amazing, imposing, "wow".  however, gaelic has also (possibly even more than most languages) undergone a simplification process over the past few hundred years, and these days people use the word "mor" in lots of ways.

so...........  i suspect that if you took a Sterling baskethilted broadsword from the 1740s and jumped into your time machine and went back to 1600 and showed it to Hugh ONeil, he would probably say "claidheamh iontach", as in wow, what a beautiful and deadly sword.  I don't think he would say "claidheamh mor", because back then mor probably had a much narrower meaning as in "big large two handed sword". but over time this use of the word "mor" probably changed as the weapons changed. so by the early 18th century, it makes sense that people would call these incredible baskethilted swords "claidheamh mor". and there seems to be plenty of evidence that both types of swords eventually garnered that name over time. and here we sit in the 21st century, 100+ years after swords had any true value in warfare, trying to categorize and put everything into neat little well defined boxes with unique descriptive names which is fine but we may find ourselves confused if we assume that folks 200 years ago had the same linguistic approach, because, well, the evidence suggests they didn't.  

anyway thats just my 2 pence,  your mileage may vary.  tr

ps for david - i do really enjoy balvenie, its quite good. i have been working my way through a bit of dalwhinnie which reminds me a lot of balvenie.  but i keep the talisker in reserve for that end of day had a rough day at the office when you need a bit of the island peat in your system

----------


## David Lewis Smith

Really well put together and made perfect sense Thom.  I am studding Russian in a very intense class (7 hours a day) "Shades" of meaning and subtitles  are  a sort of way of life in  the  Russian  Tongue.  

I am lucky, I can use the Army Class Six store to get my single malts, most of them for less than a 100 bucks and some very good ones for less than 50.  a 15 year old balvenie is about 75, and the Taliskers is 45 for some 12 year old.

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## Thom R.

well there you have it in black and white. a man from lewis drinking the speyside and a man from moray drinking the island mash.  i guess the malt is always better on the other side.  :Big Grin:   and folks wonder why we spend 85 posts arguing about the word claymore......

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## David Lewis Smith

> well there you have it in black and white. a man from lewis drinking the speyside and a man from moray drinking the island mash.  i guess the malt is always better on the other side.   and folks wonder why we spend 85 posts arguing about the word claymore......


Oh, I like the Isly, it is a wee dram of heav'n earned with a taste of brine and heather.

I hope one day we can set down over a glass or two,

----------


## David gray

That was amazingly well said Thom, I'm a bit glad you waited till now to come in because I needed all 85 posts to convince me anyway and now what you say just makes more sense yet. Thankyou very much Thom, so Balvenie and Taliskers, I used to have a hard time finding Glenmorange, I never see the really good highland and islands whiskeys over here. Best Regards,

----------


## Grafton H. Cook

et al: While trolling through this lengthy literature wishing I had a single malt at hand, but still wildly waving my French gladius by David - I failed to note, or perhaps missed it, but Lord George Murray at Falkurk during the "45" was attributed to having ordered "Claymores"... to his troops as the charged the Hanovarians... at any rate I've read that account in more than one reference... memory is not what it was, but the order was given by Murray at one of the battles. These were certainly not two-handed swords although there were a very few found on the field after Culloden. It seems to me almost impossible to seperate the edged weapons... English, Scottish, German and MAYBE some made in Ireland of the 15th thru 16th centuries and later... The Lowlands, Highlands and Reivers of the border Counties seem to have been armed edged weapons of similar design...basket hilts and etc. In fact, we don't know... It's like trying to argue how many angels can sit on the head of a pin...  Grif

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## David gray

I suppose there might be some similarities closer to the border but in general a Scottish basket has a certain shape and is pierced with circles, hearts, quatrefoils, stars. The best ones may have German blades but still obviously Scottish. I didn't get the crack about the French Gladius and I have two friendly angels sitting on the head of my pin but there might be room for another.

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## Brian Rollason

Have you tried the golf ball test or even the hot pin test on it??


Brian

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## David gray

Hello Brian, there's no ivory on it to test and I allmost hate to ask but what is the golf ball test?

----------


## Jonathan S Ferguson

> et al: While trolling through this lengthy literature wishing I had a single malt at hand, but still wildly waving my French gladius by David - I failed to note, or perhaps missed it, but Lord George Murray at Falkurk during the "45" was attributed to having ordered "Claymores"... to his troops as the charged the Hanovarians... at any rate I've read that account in more than one reference... memory is not what it was, but the order was given by Murray at one of the battles.


You mean like the quote in this very thread?




> These were certainly not two-handed swords although there were a very few found on the field after Culloden.


Do you have a reference for that?




> It seems to me almost impossible to seperate the edged weapons... English, Scottish, German and MAYBE some made in Ireland of the 15th thru 16th centuries and later... The Lowlands, Highlands and Reivers of the border Counties seem to have been armed edged weapons of similar design...basket hilts and etc. In fact, we don't know... It's like trying to argue how many angels can sit on the head of a pin...  Grif


I wouldn't go that far. It's perfectly possible to assign a coutnry of origin to most pieces of the types we've discussed here. British basket hilts are distinct from Scottish ones, Two-handed claymores are all of Scottish origin, whilst "lowland" two-handers are more generic. Findspot and other provenance info can help, of course.

----------


## David gray

Jonathan, I've healed up nicely, thankyou for all your help and time you've convinced me without a doubt and thats a good thing as Martha would say. Thanks again for your terrific info it's right on.

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## David gray

> Have you tried the golf ball test or even the hot pin test on it??
> 
> 
> Brian


Nae man never have and I never will.

----------


## Grafton H. Cook

Jonathan et al: I should have answered more quickly, but I'm in the middle of a big project and shouldn't have opened a Pandora's box... when I'm finished with this "must do" list I'll get back in more detail explaining what I said about weapons of England, Ireland/Scotland, Germany... NOW re: David Gladius... Jacques David, the French artist of the Revolution designed a sword for the Ecole' de Mars that is a classic gladius with a liberty cap and a couple of fancy additions as well as a classic Roman scabbard...brass hilted with mostly brass scabbard. I'm not into French stuff, but found one several years ago and added it to my collection... As far as Scottish "hearts" and "S" designs I would quickly point to the so-called Sinclair hilts, any one of three patterns, See Oakshott's European Weapons and Armour - page 172 (He pictures only two)... Blair later tells us that Col. Ramsey and not Sinclair was in command of that ill-fated 1612 massacre and that the arms attributed to the Scots were probably rather a collection of German swords ordered by Christian IV for Norwegian Militia(?) about 1589... All three patterns, the third pattern is the "Tessack" of which there are many in the museum in Oslo... Wonderful swords, BUT almost certainly of German manufacture. Of course a National flavor appears in the individual countries, but in the early days of the basket-hilt the lines of origin are very blurred. I'll have to look up my source for the Two-handed swords found at Culloden, but I can't do it now.... it will be several days... Best to all,  Grif

----------


## Dmitry Z~G

Glad I've stumbled upon this thread, as just recently I've been involved in a short discussion about the correct usage of the word "claymore". IMHO, for all intents and purposes, it's false to apply the term "claymore" to the basket-hilted swords.

----------


## David Critchley

Why not get the EU to issue a ruling or something, like they have with the permitted curvature of bananas, or the permitted amount of milk in chocolate, or where Melton Mobray pork pies can be made.

Claymores look like this....
Were made between .... and ....
And only in Scotland as defined by current boundaries

See all you needed was an Englishman to sort it all out.  And the European Parliament of course - but then we have to get them to do something


David
Who's nearer France than Scotland and all the warmer and dryer for it

----------


## J.G. Hopkins

> Glad I've stumbled upon this thread, as just recently I've been involved in a short discussion about the correct usage of the word "claymore". IMHO, for all intents and purposes, it's false to apply the term "claymore" to the basket-hilted swords.


This thread is about how it is NOT incorrect to call basket hilts "claymores".  If this was a period term for the swords, why would it be incorrect?  It may seem confusing to modern collectors, and I myself prefer the term "basket hilt", but based on the very persuasive evidence in this thread, "claymore" is a legitimate term for Scottish basket hilts.

Jonathan

----------


## David Lewis Smith

I am usually not the 'snippy' one on the forum but this time I am feeling a bit annoyed about the whole thing.  If the whole thread had been bothered to have been read Mr Dmitry Z~Gy would have seen the conclusions to the argument that the term is proper for both types of swords.  

Icepick: Research is to confirm or deny one's assumptions, not put an assumption on a brass plaque

----------


## Dmitry Z~G

> I am usually not the 'snippy' one on the forum but this time I am feeling a bit annoyed about the whole thing.


Maybe this will help -  open a bottle of Claymore, report back when it's dry.
Repeat, if necessary.

---------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------
 Away you Cut-purse Rascall, you filthy Bung,
away: By this Wine, Ile thrust my Knife in your mouldie
Chappes, if you play the sawcie Cuttle with me. Away
you Bottle-Ale Rascall, you * Basket-hilt*  stale Iugler, you.
Since when, I pray you, Sir? what, with two Points on
your shoulder? much

William Shakespeare, Henry IV
---------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------


Question - if a Scot was carrying a sword other than a basket-hilt to Culloden, would he be prohibited from shouting "Claymore"  by his peers, or would it still be OK? Did the Scots call all their swords claymores?

----------


## David Lewis Smith

> Maybe this will help -  open a bottle of Claymore, report back when it's dry.
> Repeat, if necessary.



I only drink single malts, anything else is "uncivilized"

some people will recognize the quote

----------


## Jonathan S Ferguson

> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>  Away you Cut-purse Rascall, you filthy Bung,
> away: By this Wine, Ile thrust my Knife in your mouldie
> Chappes, if you play the sawcie Cuttle with me. Away
> you Bottle-Ale Rascall, you * Basket-hilt*  stale Iugler, you.
> Since when, I pray you, Sir? what, with two Points on
> your shoulder? much
> 
> ...


What on earth has this got to do with _Highland Scottish_ basket-hilted broadswords/claymores?




> Question - if a Scot was carrying a sword other than a basket-hilt to Culloden, would he be prohibited from shouting "Claymore"  by his peers, or would it still be OK?


Of course it would. Assuming for a moment that there was the odd non-basket-hilt present, how does this negate the evidence of basket-hilts being known as "claymore"?





> Did the Scots call all their swords claymores?


We have only the evidence. The evidence shows that Scots called the basket-hilted sword and the older two-handed sword BOTH by the name "claymore". Why assume then, that it applies to more types than that? What types are you thinking of? Do you have references? Examples in surviving collections? What, in fact, is your point?

Perhaps it will come across better in Claude Blair's measured tones;

http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/10221462

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## Dmitry Z~G

JSF, grow some sense of humor, will ya?! You're not the only one who reads books. I have an author to plug as well, you see.
Charles Henry Ashdown - EUROPEAN ARMS AND ARMOR, p.337.
_The Scottish claymore is really the two-handed sword, and the application of the name to the basket-hilted broadsword of the eighteenth century is a mistake._

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## Glen C.

Thanks for that page. IIRC, this presents summation of the first few pages of this thread.





> What on earth has this got to do with Highland Scottish basket-hilted broadswords/claymores?


Mayhap retort to a toady. One that might better consider Falstaff (or many others) his muse of imitation.

Cheers

Hotspur; _Let me not understand you, then; speak it in Welsh_

_That last from a favorite part of that play (Act III Scene I). Not so unlike a great number of forum exchanges_

HOTSPUR 
I'll have it so: a little charge will do it. 

GLENDOWER 
I'll not have it alter'd. 

HOTSPUR 
Will not you? 

GLENDOWER 
No, nor you shall not. 

HOTSPUR 
Who shall say me nay? 

GLENDOWER 
Why, that will I. 

HOTSPUR 
Let me not understand you, then; speak it in Welsh.

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## David gray

Wow, I'm surprised this thread is still making the rounds I thought it was covered quite well. I fully buy into the fact that Basket Hilts are known as Claymores but like Jonathan I still prefer the term Basket Hilt to describe same. I don't see anything wrong with calling Scottish long swords Claymores either after all, all Japanese long swords are Katanas I believe. This one that started all this I refered to as a Lowland Claymore, I still believe thats right but I've recently seen another the same refered to as a Ring Guard Claymore.

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## Paul Macdonald

Hi Folks,

 Aye, that auld horse again  :Wink: 

 I have not read every post on this thread but most, so am not sure if I might be repeating advice given previously.

 The Gaelic term, anglicised to `Claymore`, can be literally translated to `broadsword`.

 It simply means the same. The Mhor part means, depending upon context, great, broad, wide, large, etc.

 The term relating to swords simply refers to the broad bladed sword, be it single or double handed, and this was the original contemporary meaning and common use of the word.

 Today, sure, it helps to clarify specifics by mention of `two handed` or `basket hilt` to determine exactly what type of broadsword we refer to.

 All the best,

 Macdonald

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## David gray

That was fantastic Paul, very well put, I think if I'd heard that 90 odd posts ago this thread would've been so much shorter, thanks and Slainte!

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## Jonathan S Ferguson

> JSF, grow some sense of humor, will ya?! You're not the only one who reads books. I have an author to plug as well, you see.
> Charles Henry Ashdown - EUROPEAN ARMS AND ARMOR, p.337.
> _The Scottish claymore is really the two-handed sword, and the application of the name to the basket-hilted broadsword of the eighteenth century is a mistake._


My sense of humour tends to get strained when people come in on a well-trodden thread and cheerfully ignore the evidence presented, yet still assuming an air of authority. It's a bit rude. If there was humour intended, it was far from clear, and the fact that you continue to argue the toss suggests to me that there was little intended.

Regardless, let's look at what you posted. There's more to history than simply reading books - you have to do so with a critical eye and set the source in context. Charles Henry Ashdown's unreferenced word constitutes a secondary source. The examples Blair collated are primary. 

Ashdown's work carries the excuse that he was writing forty years ago. Academic work since using _primary sources_ has not only superceded it - it directly contradicts it. Not only this, but as far as I know there is no primary source material cited by Ashdown or anyone else to support his claim. 

The myth of the "true claymore" was built on a flawed linguistic inference that a literal translation "great sword" must inherently refer to a larger weapon than the basket hilt. Like any myth, repetition by authoritative figures ensured its persistence. As this thread goes to show.

Have you read the Blair article? Can you tell me why his work (and his sources) are invalid and should be discounted?

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## Dmitry Z~G

JSF, obviously this zoomed right by you, and that's ok. And obviously, Glen got it!  
As for the article, I thank you for posting it. It's a very informative read.

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## Jonathan S Ferguson

> JSF, obviously this zoomed right by you, and that's ok. And obviously, Glen got it!  
> As for the article, I thank you for posting it. It's a very informative read.


Well, if so I'm clearly not the only one. Of course, text is not a good medium for subtle humour, so if you'd like to explain the joke I've missed, please go ahead. I'll be very pleased to admit my error and apologise.

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## David gray

Your not the only one for sure, I've gone over it a few times and it's still way over my head. How about treating us to a simple explaination of what you said Dmitry then it'll be OK. Or if Glen got it maybe he'd be so kind as to share?

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## Glen C.

Quite honestly,

It is all way beyond off topic in this thread. For quite some years, I have used a kind of rotating post script. Hotspur was my username here before the real name rule. Some others might have noted I use the Percy crescent as an avatar. Not so long ago (in the grand scheme of things) David Lewis Smith adopted the occasional use of Icepick and a post script. In a round about fashion, Dmitry is thumbing his nose at David with the use of something from the bard's Henry IV (which, as some may know is also about the Welsh rebellion of the early 15th century and the players involved). David Lewis Smith is free to do as he pleases in his postscripts, yet he may encounter the need for explanation from time to time as I have for the years and years I have been signing off posts in that fashion.

Whether or not Dmitry read the thread before responding may or may not have influenced his opinion on whether a basket-hilted broadsword might be considered a claymore. As all other respondants to the thread have had their right to respond with opinion accepted, it seems a little arbitrary and even shallow to then rebuke Dmitry for stating an opinion. As with much internet communication, inflection may be less apparent than in face to face conversation. Having met Dmitry, I can put a face and expression to most of his posts but there are times that even I may wonder what his emotional momentum at any given instance might be. This, of course, is at times true talking to someone in person. I've added a frame of me in a typically Glen mood.

All in all, it is Much Ado About Nothing and actually not anymore out of place than many posts in this thread. If someone feels strongly about excluding certain participants from responding to a given topic, make sure they know before you initiate a discussion here.

Cheers

Hotspur; _I say a round on the house might quell such uprising and misunderstood banter. A round of what would be the next debate. Mark will likely raise his eybrows again if I ask for a wine spritzer_

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## David gray

OK thanks for taking the time to explain that Glen, I gather your generally calm, easy going and relaxed thats a good way to be, keep it up.

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