# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  Latest "Baltimore" cutlass being listed - Any thoughts?

## Michael_N

Another "Baltimore" cutlass is being offered on our favorite auction site. I'm trying to figure out the overall "patina" to the blade as well as the font type of the two marks (US and the P) ... any thoughts? Mike

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## Glen C.

Hi Michael, I had hoped you might chime in on this one.

Going by the guidelines of the last thread, I am thinking it might qualify due to the thgickness off the guard and the S in the US.  However, the low starting price might be indicative of a reproduction. If I were interested, I would start with an exchange of discourse with the seller.

Some of what I see him list is possibly questionable but it would appear to be someone that has seen a great deal of old stuff.. An eagle listed has been up a few times and one might wonder why. Other items have been unquestionably correct.

Cheers

Hotspur; _there are other items I would pursue but this might be a good opportunity_

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## David. L

Hi Mike,

Yes I saw this and compared the pictures to the last discussion thread on the subject. It looks authentic at first glance and is being handled by an experienced antique seller but I have serious doubts. The markings and font are similar to the reproduction version discussed before and the corrosion pitting does not look natural on the blade. Something also not right about the patina as you point out - looks almost painted on.

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## Glen C.

The taper of the grip seems more hour glass as well.

Forced patina and wear or corrosion an old varnish?

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## Paul G.

Here we go—My opinion only. I have owned, several and seen and handled dozens of the 1814 “Baltimore” US cutlasses. This is a repro just as the last one was. Here’s some of the reasons why.  
1)	 From across the room you can see the grip is on upside down with the curve outward.
2)	 Look closely at the pitting on the blade. Done by some type of corrosive salts. You will NEVER see natural pitting and Patina that looks like this
3)	 The US stamp is wrong in spacing and has no serifs.
4)	The tang on the repos is raised much more than on an original which are more finely finished. Not like this one.
5)	The P looks good but is not quite the right die and has no serifs. Most original Ps were poorly stamped and are very worn or partially visible.
6)	The clipped point differs slightly in angle from the originals
7)	Price. There are MANY collectors that would like to have an Original “Baltimore” and would be in at 3K and up. Fortunately most are educated to these repros. and wont bid. But as we know sadly someone will probably pay too much.
I have attached some pictures that can be compared to the (excellent BTW) ones in the listing in question.

All that being said, they are a very good copy of the 1814 cutlass and are very close in feel and weight. I myself as I have said in the past, own one as a study piece and mine even has great Antique looking Black Asphaltum paint making it look even more authentic to an untrained collector. I have deeply stamped mine REPRO. So it will never be sold as authentic when it goes to the next collector.
Cheers. Paul

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## David. L

Hi Paul,

Good to see it all listed so concisely - that will make a good checklist for future use.

Thanks, David

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## Michael_N

All excellent posts and all spot on. Re's Mike

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## Paul G.

yes, we all must try and combat this kind of misrepresentation by information when we can. Most of these sellers know exactly what the are selling.   And 100% positive feedback always has to be taken with a grain of blade corroding  salt as they say. :Wink: 


> Hi Paul,
> 
> Good to see it all listed so concisely - that will make a good checklist for future use.
> 
> Thanks, David

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## Richard Schenk

> yes, we all must try and combat this kind of misrepresentation by information when we can. Most of these sellers know exactly what the are selling.   And 100% positive feedback always has to be taken with a grain of blade corroding  salt as they say.


I see our old friend is listed again on our favorite site.  Would like to believe the seller is ignorant, but by now this is getting harder to accept.  The only good thing is apparently the buyers are not being deceived since what seems to be the same fake keeps getting relisted.

What do you think of the M1826 being listed by the same seller?

Dick Schenk

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## Will Mathieson

I would be very sceptical of the 1826. The blade has been cleaned but the guard left alone.  Wood appears to be burnt away? With more questions than answers best to avoid.

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## Paul G.

> I see our old friend is listed again on our favorite site.  Would like to believe the seller is ignorant, but by now this is getting harder to accept.  The only good thing is apparently the buyers are not being deceived since what seems to be the same fake keeps getting relisted.
> 
> What do you think of the M1826 being listed by the same seller?
> 
> Dick Schenk


This seller has been told more than once what he has listed. No Credibility at least with me.  Re: The 1826 Starr.  Need to study the markings closer but I don't like the blade (among other things).  I would not bid on it myself.

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## Will Mathieson

With sellers and collectors you have to take your lumps if you misread a sword etc. and got stiffed. Best to sell it with an honest accurate description even if you lose $$$.
To pass on a sword that is a copy or put together as authentic is just plain wrong. I'm sure using Ebay they will find unsuspecting buyers who will pay the price.
I once messaged an Ebay seller in regards to a copy and he blocked me from bidding on his site. These types will not go away, only knowledge and a keen eye will avoid these pitfalls.

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## Michael_N

the VERY low price achieved by that M1826 attests to the fact that once a dealer/seller get a bad reputation for selling fakes, then their entire collection will be devalued whether or not the remaining pieces are real or not. I personally believe that the M1826 he had being offered was in good condition with authentic Starr markings and it should have easily gone for $1200-$1500. without having the scabbard. And it didn't even come close to breaking at least a $1000.

So this is a good example of where bad reputation trumps a good piece and realized value.

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## Richard Schenk

I believe another House of swords repro is being featured in a major auction house's 30-31 October 2019 sa le.  It is hard to tell for certain because clear shots of the markings are not provided, but the "US" appears sans serif and the grip seems mounted upside down as the House of Swords repros.  What think?

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## Paul G.

Thanks Richard for pointing this out. The Hilt picture on the auction website shows three signs of a repro HoS cutlass, the reversed grip the button like tang and the deep artificial aged blade pitting.

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## George Wheeler

These Joe Walters House of Swords reproductions just live on and on.  

Thanks for pointing this one out.

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## Richard Schenk

I reported the issue to the auction house and they responded this was indeed a House of Swords repro.  I believe they suspected as much from the beginning because they set the opening bid at $500 and the presale estimate at $1000-2000.  If this were an original, its value would be considerably more.  In any event, they said they would revise the listing but have not yet done so.

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## Juan J. Perez

Well, but $500 for a repro of the 70's is still a good bite! 

What is more, if they already admit it is a repro, they have to state it clearly in the description. Otherwise they are fooling their costumers on purpose.

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## Richard Schenk

> I reported the issue to the auction house and they responded this was indeed a House of Swords repro.  I believe they suspected as much from the beginning because they set the opening bid at $500 and the presale estimate at $1000-2000.  If this were an original, its value would be considerably more.  In any event, they said they would revise the listing but have not yet done so.


I'm rather disappointed with this auction house.  Despite admitting this is a HoS repro and stating they would update the item description to reflect the fact, they have not yet done so.  The auction is on 30 Oct.  It seems to me if they sell this sword under these circumstances it is an outright case of knowing fraud.  Is there any mechanism/place to report such unethical and probably illegal acrivities?

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## Will Mathieson

I would believe typically the highest bidder would assume the repro to be authentic and not question it. This is why some auction houses can mis identify items plus the fact they usually have a solid disclaimer which boils down to buyer beware, they do not consider themselves experts etc.

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## Richard Schenk

> I'm rather disappointed with this auction house.  Despite admitting this is a HoS repro and stating they would update the item description to reflect the fact, they have not yet done so.  The auction is on 30 Oct.  It seems to me if they sell this sword under these circumstances it is an outright case of knowing fraud.  Is there any mechanism/place to report such unethical and probably illegal acrivities?


Well, my faith is somewhat restored.  I just heard from the specialist with whom I was corresponding.  He apologized for the slow action on this matter, but noted he has just returned from two weeks recovery from surgery.  Bottom line is the item has been pulled from the auction.

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## GC Roxbury

Another one of these is currently being offered on Ebay. Current bid is up to $840.00.

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## Richard Schenk

Unbelievable!  It sold for $2025.  The seller is a notorious purveyor of fakes but eBay does nothing about it.

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## GC Roxbury

I contacted him and told him this was a "House of Swords" fake and his response was that he would inform the consignor.  Guess the consignor didn't care as long as he made his money.

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## Richard Schenk

I'm pretty sure the consignor and the lister are the same person.  He claims he's just a middleman and that he just repeats what the seller tells him, but when he almost exclusively lists fakes it makes you wonder if he's just trying to build plausible defense against liability.

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## Will Mathieson

It seems today that sellers use the word "we" in their description of themselves when there is only ONE. They use "we" to gain credibility so potential customers believe the person has years of expertise when in fact this is not the case. Best course of action is to avoid these sellers like the plague. There will always be such people who deceive to gain profit.

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## william fisher

joe walters   house of swords sold lots and lots swords and militaria items and some real and some faked and even some he messed with like ww11 german medals  other types of cloth items and many more items    
also people may have bought these items years and years ago and now trying to sell them as real items   ...bill

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## Paul G.

I contacted the seller as well.   No response.  Eventually there will be a very unhappy buyer.  Crazy how people can spend 2K  and not do any homework on a purchase first.

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## Will Mathieson

I have met collectors who refuse to do the actual work/research of what they collect. They would rather have a rapport with dealers and believe them trustworthy and would only sell them the best of examples. No different than some who take their vehicles in to be serviced by dealerships and get robbed at every opportunity.
No one can change their trust beliefs, if they get robbed then they should learn, most never do or even realize they have been defrauded.
No sense in trying to save these people, many will argue and say you are wrong.

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## Eric Fairbanks

Gentlemen, the unmarked Starr type m1826 referred to as House of swords reproductions have serviceable blades and believable hilt furniture. Uncommon on reproductions. Do these Baltimore cutlasses have similar attributes?

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## william fisher

may be this auction house you speak of is a joe walters spawn ??  and still going after 20 years !!!

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## Paul G.

> Gentlemen, the unmarked Starr type m1826 referred to as House of swords reproductions have serviceable blades and believable hilt furniture. Uncommon on reproductions. Do these Baltimore cutlasses have similar attributes?


In my experience if they had used more authentic dies for the markings and less overdone patina both the 1826 Starr and Baltimore  cutlass would fool most collectors. They were very good copies.

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## Paul G.

> I have met collectors who refuse to do the actual work/research of what they collect. They would rather have a rapport with dealers and believe them trustworthy and would only sell them the best of examples. No different than some who take their vehicles in to be serviced by dealerships and get robbed at every opportunity.
> No one can change their trust beliefs, if they get robbed then they should learn, most never do or even realize they have been defrauded.
> No sense in trying to save these people, many will argue and say you are wrong.


So true !

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## Eric Fairbanks

> In my experience if they had used more authentic dies for the markings and less overdone patina both the 1826 Starr and Baltimore  cutlass would fool most collectors. They were very good copies.


Paul I have two of the unmarked Starr m1826 and neither have any markings. Eric

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## Paul G.

Starr apparently did make some 26s without markings. Most house of swords ones ive seen have a laughable  die Starr stamping. Love to see some pics of your unmarked 1826s

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## Eric Fairbanks

Paul I have 3 I had bought one recently that had slipped my mind. One is totally unmarked, one has L mark on reverse another has W or M mark. None of them have standard ET, US, N. Starr parallel on obverse.

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## Eric Fairbanks

One of the unmarked examples above is missing pommel cap. All 4 of my marked examples zhave standard ET, US, N. Starr in parallel.

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## Paul G.

Excellent!  thanks for posting. A lot to study there.  You've cornered the market on 26s. i will post pics of my two when i can dig them out. Any thoughts on the 1826s with the diamond shaped engraved plated on the guards?

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## Eric Fairbanks

Paul I have seen them but have no thoughts or information of value. I believe my unmarked cutlass are period for a number of reasons although many smarter than me disagree. I have spent untold hours studying Starr swords but very few on the cutlasses m1808, m1816 or the m1826. I have run into unmarked examples on models and believe Starr sold more private purchase items than most think including non typical Starr designs. If you start a thread on the 26 I will add all specs on my 7. Eric

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## Paul G.

Eric  there were absolutely unmarked period Starr cutlasses I have seen 16s and 26s.      And have heard of an 08 unmarked. I have also seen "one of" probably special order cutlasses by  Starr.   Your unmarked  26s  look to be period and have some interesting sub marks. One looks like a replaced grip. When i get a chance i will post mine and you can add yours the pics you did are excellent. 
cheers

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## GC Roxbury

Its back.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-AME...d116%7Ciid%3A1

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## Will Mathieson

It sure is and buy a known seller who mixes fakes with authentic pieces to give the fakes some credibility. Then claims to be a consignment house so "not really his stuff". though i've never seen a consignment house sell only edged weapons.

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