# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  The question of Patina...

## George Wheeler

A recent question or two has made me think about sword conservation and/or restoration of the surface finish.  Most of us have our own pet rules of thumb on sword cleaning and it might be interesting to discuss them in a thread.


When do we clean up swords?  When they are newly acquired or periodically?

What do we clean and what do we not clean up?

Should we always clean down to the original finish?  Even if the original finish was burnished (bright) steel?

When is "patina" a good thing?  Is it ever attractive or helpful or just annoying?  

I have my own pet theories about cleaning swords and what an appropriate finish might be for an old sword but I bet others do too.  Perhaps we can discuss who, what, when, where, how, and why we clean off patina and why we don't.  

Here is something to start with.  I have about two-dozen variations of the US Model 1902 Army Officer Sabre.  Some I have chosen to clean to like new condition and some I have left with a heavy patina.  One of my decision making points is that I can always clean the patina off later on but I can't put it back on after I shine it bright (well normally).  If it is 51% clean I will consider cleaning it.  If it has 51% original finish I will consider saving that finish.  If it has 51% of even rusty brown or black patina I will consider leaving the age patina intact.  I will almost always clean the blade.  The decision tree then follows on each part or section of the sword.

George

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## Shawn Gibson

To me patina is a super plus.  I have never seen a weapon damaged by leaving it alone and I've seen hundreds almost destroyed by removing it.  My rule of thumb is clean off the grime and loose material, but try not to go beyond that.  Stabilize it so, that it isn't being damaged though.  I find most museum displays to be shockingly too clean!

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## Glen C.

I am one that is probably very guilty in some perspectives in that I do often go beyond just cleaning the loose stuff.  A spadroon I just took in had been conserved and cleaned with paste wax. What was below that is a quite complete gilt hilt, though the blade has suffered horribly. The hilt wiped quite bright, while the active rust left below years of wax on the blade is a real pita. The blade will certainly never be corrosion clear and I'll never get the broad foliate etching back but I can hope to remove as much of the red rust as I am able to.

I have also gone so far as to add silver to a hilt that showed it once was before the wear and tear of a couple of centuries. Truly, If I had done nothing but conserve the leather scabbard with Pecard's, the sword itself would be out of place with that one careful addition in its life.

I have gone so far as to remove errant butchering sharpeners that have scarred blades horribly. When I have worked blades with serious abrasives, I am cautious and intent on not removing the original grinding and polishing because modern sharpeners have had their way. The errant scratches often quite superficial while being an extreme eyesore.

In other instances I have done very little or nothing once in hand.  A very complete blue&gilt I acquired is a bit of a conundrum to me, as it has some active rust spots within what is really fairly complete b&g. It hangs in a spot where I can see and appreciate the colors in morning sun but get depressed when I have the piece in hand for closer inspection. In one particular instance, I would have to undo what someone did chemically to "preserve" patina.

I guess where I am really at on arms conservation and restoration is to allow an item to be in the best condition it can be. If it is truly at a relic point where any treatment will cause loss of material, I stop there unless I am headed towards absolute restoration (grips and coverings, etc).

Cheers

Hotspur; _reactions have ranged from "why on earth would anyone.." to "you did a great job with that one"_

A before and after while in progress, along with a passle of my errant ways

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## Glen C.

Here is the new spadroon, very much still in progress but I have been taking a break. Under the tar of mixed wax and dirt, gilt came through as further encouragement to me. Sad to me to find not that it had been covered deeper and deeper but that someone before that treatment had been scouring with something harsher than my work and had left a bunch of scratches.

I have also revealed some of the blade etching a bit better but that will have to wait on better lighting. It's getting better there and I have changed up to a different routine that is less harmful to me.

But then again, maybe I'm imagining things and this one was once silver plate as well. If it is just brass, It'll mellow.

Cheers

Hotspur; _not Picreator de-corroder but something that is doing pretty well in layers_

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## Brian Rollason

I agree with you Shawn on this one.....Glen the sword you just bought...its very nice and the patina on it is what I look for!!!!!


Brian

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## Mark McMorrow

Interesting topic!  Personally, I try to _maintain_ patina whenever possible and only remove it if there is something destructive going on.  Of course, there are exceptions: like the time a sword came in that had a light coat of active rust over the first ten or so inches of the blade and even patination over the remainder.  Removing the rust brought up the surface finish and it contrasted considerably with the rest of the blade.  A light polish was applied overall to even everything out.  There have been two or three cases when I've applied _very light_ polishes to blades that had such dark patina it made etching details difficult to see.

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## Sean Scott

I remove grit, grime, green stuff, and active rust.  Old, inactive rust and patina on metal surfaces I leave alone.  Leather and shagreen, I carefully clean; I'll treat it with a preservative only if it's so dry that it risks being easily damaged.

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## Javier Ramos

For brass I use vinegar and a old toothbrush, that takes out the dirt and green poisonous stuff and leaves the patina. And it is always period. It does not harm the nearby leather and wood either.

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## Dmitry Z~G

One of my favorite swords was "cleaned" by a fellow collector who sold it to me. Looking over it, I see evidence of a panoply of things *I* would never use - sandpaper, Brillo pad, polishing rouge. 
It's a real shame to see what one person can do in 20 minutes to a sword that laid dormant for 200 years. 

_To me patina is a super plus.  I have never seen a weapon damaged by leaving it alone and I've seen hundreds almost destroyed by removing it._ 

Well said, Shawn! Couldn't have put it better myself.

No-one tries to clean an old painting, but too many people think they are capable of cleaning antique weapons.

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## Glen C.

To me, it also may depend on how many hands have had a play as well. If that is the epee Dmitry, the hilt came to me caked in rouge and it really saw no more from me than my electric toothbrush after plastic picking out what I could of that stuff (floss additions are a trait of mine, guilty).

Cheers

Hotspur; _The also recent small sword was a case where I did go to town a bit on the blade, as it was quite red crusty._

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## George Wheeler

An excellent discussion... just as I had hoped.  Thanks to everyone who has participated so far.  I look forward to others chiming in.

I am in general agreement with leaving some patina.  Of course swords have to be stabilized or more damage will occur.  One of my issues has always been where to stop cleaning.  Active rust has to go while black rust can usually stay.  For instance, there is no point in cleaning stable rust from dug artifacts as the original surface is typically no longer there and cleaning to bright metal will ruin the artifact.  

Some patina can be attractive while some is just plain esthetically ugly.  I don't mind tarnished silver but I don't like caked grunge either.  For instance, I am not real pleased with the first M1902 sabre that I show above but it does have around 98% golden grunge patina so I will leave it as it is.  I simply had to clean the blade however as it was about 90% bright when I got it.

Here is another sword that I elected to clean.  When this Artillery Officer Sabre arrived it was in generally nice condition except for the scabbard.  The brass had some age and grunge but that was easily wiped away with a clean soft cloth.  I polished the plated blade with semi-chrome which leaves a protective film and I was happy with that.  At this point the scabbard no longer matched the sword conditionwise.  The steel body had active red rust that came off on your hands as dust.  I had little choice but to clean the scabbard body with 0000 steel wool and brasso.  I seldom use brasso except in cases like this and I am happy with the result.  Now the scabbard looks like it belongs with the sword as the condition is improved and similar to the sword.

So, this is an instance of removing the active rust down to the original bright metal that seems to have worked for me.  Notice that there is still patina in the recesses and the brass has not been polished.

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## Bill Goodwin

Good topic indeed.  

Guess I fall into the general stream of minimal cleaning newly acquired items depending on the state they arrive in.  Surface / active rust on blades &  scabbards, tarnish on guards, fixing bent guards as best I can without causing more damage, etc.  My main cleaning method makes use of "000" steel wool, small brass parts cleaning brushes and tooth brushes.  Again it depends on the level of conservation needed and how I want to leave it as is.

My latest piece acquired was another M1902 that had a few things theat need some attention (rusty scabbard , bent quillion).

before and after photos.

one at the bottom of pic (BTW that's my Bannerman 02 at the top....I left it in the state I received it in)



after some light cleaning of scabbard and a quick wipe down with my oily sock that I keep in a zip-loc baggy and have used for years and gently bending the quillion back to near original state




didn't want to press my luck with the guard an snap it off......that would have made for a bad evening......

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## FJ Ferrero

I always have doubts whether to leave the patina or clean it. Last year I cleaned one of my sabers and for some friends this was a mistake, others they like it better now... I don't know, I kinda like both... with the old patina and clean... The whole thing started when I found the scabbard with spots of green corrosion. So I started removing the corrosion and rust and ended it up cleaning the entire scabbard and hilt, but not completely... I left bits of patina in some borders so that it would still have the feel of a really old item. 

Fed

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## Javier Ramos

One of the nice things of cleaning rust with electrolysis (sodium carbonate) is that when you are finished, a grey skin remains on the steel, very easy to remove just with a sponge, but you can opt to leave in place as a grey patina. It removes easier from exposed parts and keeps longer on those sunk, what is natural too.

Javier

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## Dmitry Z~G

> If that is the epee Dmitry, the hilt came to me caked in rouge... [/i]


I was talking about another sword, but if you mean the French spadroon I bought from you, then definitely, someone went to town with the rouge on the hilt of it. That 'stuff' is near impossible to remove. It clings to the recesses like glue.

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## Dmitry Z~G

> One of the nice things of cleaning rust with electrolysis (sodium carbonate) is that when you are finished, a grey skin remains on the steel, very easy to remove just with a sponge, but you can opt to leave in place as a grey patina. It removes easier from exposed parts and keeps longer on those sunk, what is natural too.
> 
> Javier


Javier, 
What do you mean, by _just with a sponge_? 
What kind o f a sponge?
Thanks!

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## Javier Ramos

> Javier, 
> What do you mean, by _just with a sponge_? 
> What kind o f a sponge?
> Thanks!


Just a bath one. It is like a film. It removes easily when the steel is wet, but sticks after drying.

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## Matt Easton

> I remove grit, grime, green stuff, and active rust.  Old, inactive rust and patina on metal surfaces I leave alone.  Leather and shagreen, I carefully clean; I'll treat it with a preservative only if it's so dry that it risks being easily damaged.


Same for me.

Matt

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## George Wheeler

Most collectors seem to have developed a cleaning protocol that works for them.  While some leave well enough along some will clean and some will polish.  I suppose that I fall into that category that will generally clean and sometimes polish when the sword comes into my collection.  Typically, I will then leave it alone and let it tone down as it hangs on the wall; only cleaning it further to stabilize it if it develops a rust spot or a problem.  

Here is a project that I took on when I bought a turn of the Century Berlin Police helmet.  The leather was in decent shape but the fittings had a nasty yellowish grunge patina that I could not stand the more I looked at it.  I left the leather alone and did nothing to it but to wipe it with a damp cloth.  I determined that the fittings were German-silver so I started to clean and polish.  I was very pleased with the result and the original silver colored finish was restored completely changing the look of the helmet.  Sometimes cleaning and polishing is the best course for me.

George

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## DanR

Good morning gentlemen,
I feel like when my wife asks me why she does not fit anymore in a blouse.
That said,I believe in bringing back a sabre to its former glory.
I never buy a piece if I consider I cannot do so, and all my collection is cleaned bright.
Now, the beauty is in the eye of the onlooker; if patina is what makes you happy, leave it; if not, you won't like your sabre.
To clean or not to clean is then a personal matter, the main criteria being proudness when you look at or show your piece, regardless of the opinions of the others.
If I had a vintage 1974 Jaguar E-type, believe me, the patina would fly at the rythm of my orbital polisher.
Some teeth grinding : I even sand the leather of my scabbards with 80 grade sand paper and I have beautiful polishing wheels on my electric grinder.
I protect the shiny brass with professionnal compounds and grease the leather (grips also) with first quality grease. 
Ready to receive the stones.
Dan

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## Matt Easton

For me that verges on vandalism.

I don't really see removing the real surface of an historical artifact as improving it.  You are left with something that is new and no longer an artifact.  There has to be a line in the sand somewhere, otherwise one may simply send some bits of old metal to a modern swordsmith and ask them to make you a new sword.  :Wink: 

I am an ex-archaeologist, and taking an historical artifact and making it look like it was made yesterday by replacing parts and grinding the original surface away just seems bizarre to me.  Why not just buy a replica if you want something shiney and sword-shaped to hang on the wall?

Matt

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## Javier Ramos

The thing will have an undefined surface in 50 years at best, what maybe is nice for a car but not too much for historical swords. Many people here think about themselves as warders not as owners. 

Javier

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## DanR

Hi Matt,
I value your opinion a lot, like I understand each one his own; my sabers are pieces of history and will be transmitted in a condition that will permit to testify of a given period in years to come.
You said "vandalism", I then say "patina= lack of maintenance/interest"; Marc Marbot said once, in an irony mode after the claim of a member :  "all sabers have been at Waterloo".
 I am sure a lot of those are around, with the impossibility to affirm : "my sabre was there" unless duly documented. If I had one and was 100% sure it was there, I would treasure it, but surely, it would not be in the condition found unless some collector kept it in the condition found and not left decaying.I hope my English is good enough to translate my thinking.
Napoleon 's saber at Marengo has been sold almost 5.000.000 Euros. Thanks to somebody who kept it in good condition and not left neglected.
Matt, with all due respect, I promised that if I find the nose of the Sphynx, I won't put it back, for, in that case, I agree, I would leave it "as is".
Dan

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## Ian Knight

I don't know the chemistry of corrosion or when it is active or not. All I do know is, when I removed 'black' corrosion from a sword or scabbard there is always red rust underneath. To me 'patina' shouldn't mean corrosion. Personally I wouldn't clean a sword back to look new. That is my personal preference not a criticism, neither would I leave corrosion on a sword. Corrosion can be cleaned from a sword and the sword then given a light polish to look neither neglected nor new and then protected with wax. The same would apply to a grip. Clean and treat to protect. The sword will then remain looking good for years to come.

Ian

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## DanR

Hi Ian,
I do agree; on the pictures above, the flash makes the hilts look like polished to death.
I don't buy pieces with dented scabbards, badly pitted or damaged; they all are very good looking; like I said above, nobody can affirm if a damage is a combat damage and not sheer neglect; I have read that many a katana, sometimes most valuable, have been brought back from the Pacific theaters and been used to mow grass in a farm.  
In reality, I polish yes, but to remove the brown patina I can't stand, once again my own preference.

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## Martin Read

There are two main aspects of patina - 1) to show age and authenticity, and 2) the aesthetic appeal. If you like patina from an aesthetic viewpoint then keep it, if you don't then polish, but leave sufficient evidence of age.

If you have a sword with pitting then, short of a grinder, nothing you can do on the polishing front will remove this, and the piece will always have a testament to its age (I have never come across any fraudulent treatment than can faithfully reproduce age-pitting in steel). About 50% of black deposits on blades I have investigated have shown active red-rust underneath, it is always worth looking at such black marks, as has been mentioned already.

If you like a more shiny appearance on swords, but are concerned about removing evidence of age, then only polish most of the blade. Difficult to reach areas, such as under langets, should be left alone and their patina will remain as an indication of age to the interested viewer.

Personally I don't like dull grey patinas, I'll give such swords a light polish so that they then have a shinier, and slightly lighter, grey patina. 

Swords that have been attacked with grinders, I have found, can have their appearance improved with the use of quite aggressive methods, after all any patina is at least partially removed already, so isn't really worth preserving.  I polish out the scratches with fine garnet paper - it takes a long time. Even deep marks have their outlines softened. The result is a very bright blade but the marks themselves have much less visual impact, and are given the appearance of age and wear.

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## DanR

Good morning Martin,
That is the way I feel.
Thanks

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## james.elstob

How about cleaning away patina in an effort to reveal markings underneath?

For my first ever sword purchase I acquired a 1827p rifle officers Levee sword (sword light, or 'I can't believe it's not sword')   Blade very heavily pitted and black rust all over. Couldn't see any markings at all until a light scrub with very fine 000 grade steel wool revealed "LONDON" engraved on the ricasso. Fun but not very informative. 

I've since bought a 1796 LC troopers sabre so unlikely there is engraving beneath the patina but I swear there is the hint of something under some light  corrosion on the ricasso and also a 2 digit number (scratched if anything) on the forte of the blade and covered by patina. 

I'd desperately like to clean it up a little too see if anything is revealed like with my first effort but I dread leaving a small 'clean' patch with nothing to show for it. 

All in all I think it's best left well alone.  Any advice?

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## Derek M

I agree with Ian's statement: "Corrosion can be cleaned from a sword and the sword then given a light polish to look neither neglected nor new and then protected with wax. The same would apply to a grip. Clean and treat to protect. The sword will then remain looking good for years to come."  That statement sums up my own personal philosophy on the 'preserving' a sword. I respect that we all have our own desires of how we like our swords to look, but for me, the shiny and new look does not appeal to me much. A sword needs to give me that 'historic feel' to a certain degree, and this is done through having some amount of patina remain to both the blade and hilt if possible. Now, we all have our own methods to 'clean' our pieces and which ones require it and which ones should left be in their current condition. If a cleaning attempt is in order, I think it is most important to know that moment when to cease cleaning and then just preserve it with some wax (Renaissance Wax for instance). If I feel my cleaning process is leading me towards brightening the piece, then I stop cleaning before this happens. I have cleaned just two or three British swords before and I am still baffled at how a particular cleaning process can actually still leave a nice light grayish tonal value hue to the blade without the blade becoming shiny or bright. I absolutely love blades that have that toned down grey patina look (no rust at all, just that true honest 'steel' look.NOT shiny like chrome). I don't know if it is the cleaning method I used that allowed this to happen on these few British swords, but it has me believing that maybe the type or high quality of steel may enable this end result 'grey look' to occur. The sword pictured below I just purchased a couple days ago and am awaiting it's arrival to my home in about a week. I plan to lightly clean this sword for the purpose of a fun project and moreso, to bring back some of it's former glory. For the hilt, I will take a toothbrush and toothpick to the shagreen grip and gently pick away the caked in grime and then research on how to properly dye the slate grey color back into the stingray skin. I will clean the wire wrap, but leave the dark aging in the crevasses of the wire twists (an attractive contrast!!). For the steel hilt, I will attempt to achieve that tonal grey 'steel' look. The 'plain Jane' blade may pose a challenge for me because the look of the steel in the pictures (I do not have the sword in my possession at the moment to inspect the blade) leads me to think that the blade may have that original thin nickel or plating to it. At any rate, I feel this is one of those examples that deserves to be rescued and given a second chance at life, it was not a very expensive sword to purchase due to current condition and lack of engraving and I feel I can bring it back to a respectable historical look. I welcome any suggestions and comments, as I am always learning from the more experienced kind forum members here.

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## Derek M

Oh, and I should mention that I only clean by hand. 

I do NOT EVER use any electric tools such as sanding wheels etc. for fear that the electric tool method could possibly damage the sword by removing some of the case hardening depth of the blade when it was quenched and also for the fear that a tool could generate too much heat to affect the blades temper. I guess I would just not want to take that risk.

Also, I guess I just feel that only the human hand can 'feel' how the metal needs to be cleaned. Maybe I am just too 'old school' but placing direct hand to piece, just seems to be a true way to honor the 'old world' methods, …...sort of like how a old world blacksmith would frown upon using an electric forging press.

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## Mark Thomas

I'm very much in two minds about patina.How can years of decay and neglect inspire interest and awe? Why is it not only OK to restore a vintage car to Concours Condition,but desirable and an antique sword, or firearm for that matter, not?I suspect it's a question of scale and how much the senses are offended.There is nothing appealing to the eye about a jalopy,so why then is an equally dilapidated sword considered acceptable and precious in such a state?

What is it about the visible ravages of time in terms of surface condition that must be preserved in a sword and not in an automobile?

Is it just the current and maybe cultural trend or something more?

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## Eric Fairbanks

Well said Thomas Didymus



> I'm very much in two minds about patina.How can years of decay and neglect inspire interest and awe? Why is it not only OK to restore a vintage car to Concours Condition,but desirable and an antique sword, or firearm for that matter, not?I suspect it's a question of scale and how much the senses are offended.There is nothing appealing to the eye about a jalopy,so why then is an equally dilapidated sword considered acceptable and precious in such a state?
> 
> What is it about the visible ravages of time in terms of surface condition that must be preserved in a sword and not in an automobile?
> 
> Is it just the current and maybe cultural trend or something more?

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## Dmitry Z~G

> I'm very much in two minds about patina.How can years of decay and neglect inspire interest and awe? Why is it not only OK to restore a vintage car to Concours Condition,but desirable and an antique sword, or firearm for that matter, not?I suspect it's a question of scale and how much the senses are offended.There is nothing appealing to the eye about a jalopy,so why then is an equally dilapidated sword considered acceptable and precious in such a state?
> 
> What is it about the visible ravages of time in terms of surface condition that must be preserved in a sword and not in an automobile?
> 
> Is it just the current and maybe cultural trend or something more?


That philosophy is rapidly changing. Car enthusiasts now are realizing that by painting over the original paint and replacing the patinated leather, and chroming everything up to wazoo, they are not preserving the original car, but are in fact harming its value. 
Watch for the repainted and completely redone cars to plummet in value, as opposed to the unrestored, original, weathered examples. that will apply especially to the sports cars. Mark my words..

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## Will Mathieson

Each sword has its individual condition issues. Brown patina  on iron hilts looks good but so does properly restored ones.  Try to preserve the original finish/markings from manufacturing process as possible. Backyard grinder marks I do like to remove on blades using a soft stone that preserves the contours but removes the grind marks.
Bent blades are the result of abuse. Bends too can be removed and increase the value of the sword. The most battle damage on a sword you will see is from play in later times, true battle damaged swords were not kept in that condition, at least I've not seen any with major faults that are not from modern day abuse. 
Some dealers still buff away details because shiney sells, (no need to name them) this does affect value but not theirs, crows will pay.
Most condition issues I've seen are caused from poor storage. 
I do not preserve rust on a sword as they were not made with it, there are proper ways of removal that does not harm. Beware the painted scabbard usually completely pitted.

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## Eric Fairbanks

You are absolutely correct Dmitry that is the trend in antique cars and is a valid argument, however, Thomas observation of why do we "revere the dog, the cat, the horse and protect them but revile the rat or ignor the cow right to life" is an interesting concept on preserving old things. I like the old on some things and the new on others so I cannot lose in present debate but question remains "why one way or the other"? A very interesting and unanswerable question perhaps. Great thread, George



> That philosophy is rapidly changing. Car enthusiasts now are realizing that by painting over the original paint and replacing the patinated leather, and chroming everything up to wazoo, they are not preserving the original car, but are in fact harming its value. 
> Watch for the repainted and completely redone cars to plummet in value, as opposed to the unrestored, original, weathered examples. that will apply especially to the sports cars. Mark my words..

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## David Loundy

I tend to be in the "light cleaning" camp, but I have had a few exceptions.

I am working on cleaning a shamshir shikargar I picked up recently-- my most aggressive cleaning job to date.  The auction pictures were pretty crappy, but you could see there was something more there than a garden-variety tulwar.  It has quite a bit of silver kaftgori on the hilt that was substantially obscured.  At first I thought it was mostly corrosion, but as I cleaned, I found that a lot of it was 200+ years of grime.  There are some losses in the silver, but not nearly as much as I first believed.  I am not trying to restore the blade to a bright polish, as I feel that denies its history, but I am working extensively on the hilt because some artist's work deserves to be seen again as it was intended.  (Any great tips on how to remove the grime and corrosion, but not the silver, are welcome...)

--David--

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## Javier Ramos

One of the things I tried electolysis on were morisque stirrups. Somebody found in a ruinous barn outside the city of Calatayud dozens of old stirrups (probably 16th century). They had severe red rusting and bubbling and were sold at 15 euro each. I bought six when I was playing with the electrolysis system. My surprise was when under the lumps of detached oxide started appearing that the surface of each of them was covered in delicate silver thread buttered into engraved lines (koftgari thus). 

The only method to liberate the silver was probably electrolysis, but the volumen increase of the rusted iron under the silver had actually displaced it from the intimate contact with healthy metal, so the threads started to detach when the oxide was removed, and I had to stop at an intermediate level, the stirrups still have rust (damped in mineral oil) but silver geometric designs are visible.

They are identical in shape to what I see often described as "turkish" (with same sort of rossettes).



Or "indo-persian"



But actually Spanish moresque.

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## Will Mathieson

Great stirrups, they came out very well. 
Most of what we see in decent condition has been cleaned more than once in the past. Unless displaying mint condition, swords have been cleaned.
Swords with pitting were once covered in corrosion from storage in damp conditions. Many swords you would not recognize from before to after. 
Very few swords are found in condition with 200 years of patina, owners tend to clean them.

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## Javier Ramos

Oh no, those are not mine. It was just to stress the point than some of the stirrups you see around are not from Turkey or Persia but from Spain. Mine look much deteriorated at their surface, I am not sure I have pictures. Moors were expelled from Spain in 1609-1612 so they have to be before then.

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## M Forde

> I absolutely love blades that have that toned down grey patina look (no rust at all, just that true honest 'steel' look….NOT shiny like chrome).



I think I have an Engineer's blade that has a similar colour:



In the spirit of the thread, a tulwar of mine certainly benefitted from a light clean. Here's a before shot and after shot:


The careful removal of lots of grime uncovered some surviving silver koftgari and a shiny blade.

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## Derek M

M Forde,

Precisely !! that is EXACTLY the nice attractive natural toned/aged gracefully look I LOVE!!

Thanks for posting an example of what is so hard to describe with words.

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## Derek M

M Forde,

That Engineers blade is so exact to the nice look that I prefer, it prompts me to ask you, by chance did you purchase it that way? or was that tonal grey the result of a method of cleaning you did?

The few blades I was able to get to that similar color was the result of me cleaning medium oxidation from the blades (no pitting), in my own slow methodical way and with a polish/cleaner called Tarnite Metal polish (I believe it is an oxalic acid polish and it is the one that had the knight logo on the can). Now, like most products that work so well, I learned few years back, it was pulled from the shelves and become obsolete and never to be found again…and a product if found, is as good as gold. Go figure, the best products are the ones that go obsolete way too soon. For some reason after a slow polish with that product, and if left for some days along with touching the blade (yes, as weird as it sounds, if you let your hand oils interact with the cleaned blade after a Tarnite polish, the blade would develop a grey hue after a few days…weird but very attractive).

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## M Forde

Hiya Derek,

You're most welcome. The sabre came to me that colour so I can't help you in that regard. It's a nice hue, almost the same colour as the grip, and quite even throughout the length. I can certainly see why you have a preference for blades like this one.

Matthew

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## David Kelly

Appears everybody is fairly pragmatic in their approach. Patination is great for heirloom swords that have a history of care. Attic and barn kept beauties need triage  :Wink: .

Case in point. This poor dying creature was once a French M1816 Cuirassier. No one was bidding. The red rust was everywhere except the foible blade; that had gone nuclear. I didn't think the active rust looked deep for most of it so I paid 150.00 and went to work:

Lot of hand cleaning and polish. The foible looks like a smallpox survivor but I didn't loose it. There was no scabbard in the deal. Got a Johdpur one from KoAs munitions bin. I'm proud of myself. In spite of six thumbs on each had I got a save (and a heck of a bargain  :Smilie:   )

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## George Wheeler

> You are absolutely correct Dmitry that is the trend in antique cars and is a valid argument, however, Thomas observation of why do we "revere the dog, the cat, the horse and protect them but revile the rat or ignor the cow right to life" is an interesting concept on preserving old things. I like the old on some things and the new on others so I cannot lose in present debate but question remains "why one way or the other"? A very interesting and unanswerable question perhaps. Great thread, George


Thank you Eric.  I was hoping this thread would elicit a discussion like this.

IMHO there is not an absolute "right" or "Wrong" way to deal with this thorny question of Patina.  I tend to do both almost no cleaning to preserve patina and fairly heavy cleaning to reveal the original finish if it is still present.  The cleaning style/methods of each sword has to be evaluated on its own merit, or lack thereof, in my collection.  

As you point out, we tend not to bash the cute looking seals to make hats any more but we don't stop along side of the roadway to mourn the squashed possum that has been hit by a passing car either.  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

George

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## Richard Dellar

On the question of old cars vs swords, I'm not sure the two are comparable - old cars simply go rusty and tatty, they do not acquire a patina whereas a weapon can attain a most attractive patina with age. Maybe just a matter of aesthetics.

It is interesting to recall that, in Victorian times and even the early part of the 20th century, the guards at the Tower of London were accustomed to clean all of the medieval armour and weapons stored there by scouring with a mixture of brick dust and goose fat. I don't think the word patina had been invented then ...

Anyway, still on the same subject, what do members think of the patina on the scabbard of the sword below?

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## Max C.

Patina is a very old concept. According to Grant McCracken patina was "the visual proof of status prior to the 18th century's consumer revolution and the onset of the fashion system. Patina served as an icon of a family's longevity. Patina made certain that those who merely enjoyed wealth but who had not yet qualified for standing could be identified as such." 

Patina was an indicator of status, but in today's world where status is rather indicated by the new and shiny; it isn't as easy of a concept to grasp anymore, and so for me aesthetically it is an important traditional aspect of collecting antiques.

On a more practical level I ask:
-Is the patina stable? An inactive corrosion is a great protection against further degradation.
-Is it distracting from some important aspects of the sword?
-Is cleaning really necessary?
-Is what I'm about to do reversible?

The problem is that nearly all cleaning is destructive, and there is only so much you can do before disfiguring the object. Maybe it won't happen in your lifetime, but it will surely happen at some point. For example I have a Napoleonic sword with a silver name plate on the grip. The past owners were so agressive in polishing the silver that now the name has completely disappeared. I've seen this done on many other pieces kept in military collections where there is a culture of extreme tidiness.

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## Ben Bevan

Superb Richard, a great match, but do I detect a hint of subterfuge in your question ??

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## Richard Dellar

> Superb Richard, a great match, but do I detect a hint of subterfuge in your question ??


Ben

Yes! the scabbard was made in the last 3 months - the patina has been restored

Richard

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## Ben Bevan

Very impressed Richard, I thought you were going to say it was restored using the original mounts that were then 'repatinised', but all new? A trade secret no doubt. Ben.

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## Richard Dellar

> Very impressed Richard, I thought you were going to say it was restored using the original mounts that were then 'repatinised', but all new? A trade secret no doubt. Ben.


Ben
Yes, entirely new, built from scratch. The point being that I could have polished up the hilt and had a shiny scabbard to match but I prefer patina.
Richard

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## Bruce Pennington

Love the topic!  
Clearly it boils down to personal taste and reason for collecting.  Recent experience highlights a point though:  I just won a WWII NCO gunto at auction that is in practically mint condition.  The perfection of its condition automatically worried me that it is a fake, however after investigation, I believe it's legit.  So I wound up paying TWICE the normal price - BECAUSE of its condition.  While a swords condition often shows its path in life/war, who would pay twice the price for a beat up sword that looks horrible - no one.

On another note, I have two NCO gunto that had been painted gold at some point (one even had a translucent gold on the blade!).  After much debate and seeking advice, I finally concluded that the odds were that the paint was post-war and decided to remove it.  The late-war gunto still had the original paint, but the early war gunto had been stripped to the metal.  So, now what to do with it!?!?  I have a good friend that does superb model painting, and I had him paint it for me.  I hate that it looks too good, but it's better than the gold, and still better than the artificially stripped condition.

The key point is be careful and deliberate, but the collection is for yourself (unless you buy to sell), so follow your gut.
BTW I always take before-and-after pics just in case I ever might need to show original condition.

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## Mark Thomas

I agree with the above, not everything that happens to a sword be it vintage or antique in its lifetime is worth keeping,much of it is just abuse or disregard.

Patina is a bane and cherished only so far as to the degree in which each individual tries to remove it, based on their own parameters of tolerance of it!

Patina has nothing at all to do with the origins of any sword and usually it is completely unknown when it took hold.A sword could have existed for many decades past its service life in good condition and then in recent decades fallen in to disregard.Then a contemporary collector acquires it and naively cherishes its 'historical' condition! lol

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## Will Mathieson

"Patina has nothing at all to do with the origins of any sword and usually it is completely unknown when it took hold.A sword could have existed for many decades past its service life in good condition and then in recent decades fallen in to disregard.Then a contemporary collector acquires it and naively cherishes its 'historical' condition! lol"

I agree with Marks above comment. Assuming patina is 200 years old is a false assumption in most cases. There is a huge difference between cleaning and removing corrosion to conserve vs hit hard on a buffing wheel. I once cleaned a bugle that was black, I left a certain amount of oxidization that showed pleasing red browns and no one suggested that I had even touched it.
Some swords with their owners having long service can exhibit polished and worn brass hilts, part of its history and you know the hilt had been kept shiney.
 It takes skill and experience to properly clean swords without removing original finish etc. Not every sword collector is up to the task and in that case swords are then best left as is.

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## DanR

> Hi Matt,
> I value your opinion a lot, like I understand each one his own; my sabers are pieces of history and will be transmitted in a condition that will permit to testify of a given period in years to come.
> You said "vandalism", I then say "patina= lack of maintenance/interest"; Marc Marbot said once, in an irony mode after the claim of a member :  "all sabers have been at Waterloo".
>  I am sure a lot of those are around, with the impossibility to affirm : "my sabre was there" unless duly documented. If I had one and was 100% sure it was there, I would treasure it, but surely, it would not be in the condition found unless some collector kept it in the condition found and not left decaying.I hope my English is good enough to translate my thinking.
> Napoleon 's saber at Marengo has been sold almost 5.000.000 Euros. Thanks to somebody who kept it in good condition and not left neglected.
> Matt, with all due respect, I promised that if I find the nose of the Sphynx, I won't put it back, for, in that case, I agree, I would leave it "as is".
> Dan


I still think that way.
To sum it up, I clean not destroy.
I stop if the integrity of the sword will suffer; I'll never do any cleaning if it harms any detail born with the sword.
I do not remove blemishes, scars, or any writings to achieve this goal.
I do carry my swords at ceremonies and I am proud of it; they all are in an outstanding condition, all original characteristics present but clean.
I once again hope my english is good enough to express what I think.
Best regards,
Dan

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## S.White

> Anyway, still on the same subject, what do members think of the patina on the scabbard of the sword below?


I wouldn't touch that sword personally ... it's good to go from where I'm sitting. The scabbard looks entirely in sympathy with the blade also.

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## S.White

> Appears everybody is fairly pragmatic in their approach. Patination is great for heirloom swords that have a history of care. Attic and barn kept beauties need triage .
> 
> Case in point. This poor dying creature was once a French M1816 Cuirassier. No one was bidding. The red rust was everywhere except the foible blade; that had gone nuclear. I didn't think the active rust looked deep for most of it so I paid 150.00 and went to work:
> 
> Lot of hand cleaning and polish. The foible looks like a smallpox survivor but I didn't loose it. There was no scabbard in the deal. Got a Johdpur one from KoAs munitions bin. I'm proud of myself. In spite of six thumbs on each had I got a save (and a heck of a bargain   )
> 
> Attachment 143346Attachment 143347Attachment 143348Attachment 143349Attachment 143350Attachment 143351


Can I just say what a fantastic job you did with that sword David ... I've had similar experience retrieving a Pattern 1888 Bayonet that was completely rust encased and got it from an antique shop for a song - later to reveal many lovely regimental markings. Well done indeed! ;-)

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## Will Mathieson

Always liked the M1816, should have inscription on the blade spine with date. These particular ones are made by Klingenthal, I have one dating 1820.

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## Dennis M Loyer

Just like furniture or old antique knick-knack, original finish is what is most valueable.

To have a sword that has seen a battle or war period and to polish that sword to a shiny bright finish seems criminal.  There is a story about the British Museum receiving an English 1812 period breast plate and repairing the dent and polishing it up to resemble "brand new".  The family who donated the piece was horrified as the dent was from a French saber slash at the battle of Waterloo.

I wipe my blades down with oil and remove any red rust but that is the limit of what should be done to an antique sword, at least in my humble opinion.

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## niall dignan

I left mine pretty much as I found it,dated 1831.

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## Edward C.

Very few old blades are mirror bright and shiny. The steel seems to oxidize to a satin silver gray, without any action from red rust at all.  Another danger of polishing is the destruction of the lovely intersection of flats and arcs, the rounding of edges that were meant to be clean and defined. Any arms show will exhibit dozens of old firearms that have been wrecked by over zealous buffing and rebluing....
 We seem to be discussing two different things here, the first of which constitutes neglect, such as rust, dirt, etc, and the other which for lack of a good term I will call age worn- the accumulation of wear from use and habit.  Neglect is caused mostly by the opposite of use- 
 It seems a bit sacrilegious to take a sword that has been used by brave men in desperate circumstances , and remove the wear from such so that it looks as if it were never in service.  Even the Japanese, famous for carefully polishing their blades, keep the tang intact so the age of the weapon is immediately apparent. 
 And there are items that even dirt enhances.  I have a "bouncing Betty" land mine trigger my FIL unscrewed off a mine, under machine gun fire on the banks of the Rhine- it still has German mud on it and cleaning it would be unthinkable. Same with the barbed steel pungi stake my friend retained as a macabre souvenir , sawn off by the surgeons to ease getting it out of his foot- caked Vietnamese dirt all over it- some things are best left alone to tell their story- .
 So-it depends- but gentle, careful discretion  seems like the best way to go.

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## DanR

> "Patina has nothing at all to do with the origins of any sword and usually it is completely unknown when it took hold.A sword could have existed for many decades past its service life in good condition and then in recent decades fallen in to disregard.Then a contemporary collector acquires it and naively cherishes its 'historical' condition! lol"
> 
> I agree with Marks above comment. Assuming patina is 200 years old is a false assumption in most cases. There is a huge difference between cleaning and removing corrosion to conserve vs hit hard on a buffing wheel. I once cleaned a bugle that was black, I left a certain amount of oxidization that showed pleasing red browns and no one suggested that I had even touched it.
> Some swords with their owners having long service can exhibit polished and worn brass hilts, part of its history and you know the hilt had been kept shiney.
>  It takes skill and experience to properly clean swords without removing original finish etc. Not every sword collector is up to the task and in that case swords are then best left as is.



Good morning Gentlemen,
This subject is a can of worms.
One thing is forgotten though : How much you paid for your sword ?
It took me years to find my swords; top quality swords;top buying prices; I never bought a decaying sword with the excuse it was like that because it has seen combat or been at Waterloo.
When I receive them, I SURFACE CLEAN them; I never destroyed a charactéristic of any sword; I never removed any metal or blemish.
From now on, my swords will mellow clean.
All my collection is received as is and cleaned and polished to remove grime from decades of neglect; my cuirassier saber was under an heavy coat of varnish for decades (old collector fashion). It has been a shore to gently remove it, but the result is awesome.
Took me 3 years of research for a pistol An XIII with intact wood and no rust. It is in such a good condition that the previous owner shot it.
All in all, every collection has the quality directly proportional to the price you paid. Don't make be believe you will shell down 6 or 7 grands for a Garde Impériale saber with worn leather, loose wire and rust all over.
If you go to the French sites like Trajan, you will see that NO sword for sale is a wreck.
Hope the stones won't flying at me.
Best regards,
Dan

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## George Wheeler

An excellent discussion!  

I have another example of a personal cleaning and polishing decision that I made.  Here is an example of an Imperial/Weimar Republic period lion head pommel Police Officer sword by Weyersberg.  When I got it the sword had been neglected for years with active red, and inactive black, rust on the blade and what can best be described as grime and verdigris on the fittings.  I quickly determined that the fittings were all solid cast Tombak and were never gilt and that the original finish had been polished bright (glatter).  So, there was no original polished finish left, only a very unattractive coating of crud and rust due to neglect.  

I cleaned the plated blade leaving the inactive black rust and removing the active red rust.  That was a no-brainer for me.  I elected to clean and polish the Tombak fittings to their original glatt appearance.  This required a lot of heavy cleaning and hand polishing with a stuff brush and polish to get the accumulated crud out of the cast details found on the hilt.  The smooth surfaces of the scabbard fittings also required heavy hand polishing to remove the traces of verdigris and grime that stubbornly stuck to the Tombak and stained the smooth surfaces.

At any rate, here are some before and after pictures.  Before:

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## George Wheeler

After:

Since these photos were taken the brightness has toned down considerably and the polished fittings have taken on the attractive golden color of the Tombak and the resulting finish does not look "brassy" at all.

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## David R

Just my "two pennyworth" in Nihonto collecting (I collect Nihonto) the blade is preferably polished to as new, (or better) but the mounts have their aged patina jealously protected. It is not just steel versus non-ferrous either, even Iron mounts are lovingly rubbed with non invasive techniques, and the interstices left untouched. Different strokes for different folks.

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