# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  What's a colichemarde blade doing on a basket hilt?

## J.G. Hopkins

My father is an antiques dealer who specializes in furniture, as do most of his colleagues.  Occasionally a furniture or generalist dealer has a sword or two.  At his most recent antiques show, a dealer had this sword: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/jgiles...cd.jpg&.src=ph

I apologize for the poor quality image, the photo was taken with my father's camera phone.  The dealer said it dated from 1680 to 1700.  I felt it was more like 1780, but then again, I have never seen such a sword.

I originally interpreted the blade to be more akin to that of a broadsword, but my father confirmed that the blade actually has a triangular cross-section.  Has anyone ever seen anything like it?  If so (or even if not) what sort of date would you assign to it?  What are your overall impressions?

I look forward to your responses!

Thanks,
Jonathan

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## J.G. Hopkins

I would just like to note that there are no maker's marks on the hilt or the blade (which is undecorated).  Also, I believe my father said that the grip is leather with a wire wrap.

Jonathan

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## John Oliver

Hi Jonathan,

The hilt looks like a 1788 pattern dragoon officers (from memory there is a similar sword in Robson's book - at work now though so don't have the book with me) - but *is* the blade really 'colichemarde'? It *does* look from the picture to be of triangular cross-section BUT does it also have the much wider forte as well (suddenly transforming into a much thinner blade about one third up from the hilt...)

The reason I ask this is because I have only *recently* seen an English basket-hilted (mortuary hilt) broadsword from the civil war period (dated 1650) that ALSO has this type of triangular section blade - I had no idea that this type of blade was in use back then and find it *fascinating* that there might be a C17th precursor to the C18th 'hollow blade' (as it was known back then) produced at Hounslow, Shotley Bridge works and all the major European blade making centres such as Solingen, etc...

NO - unfortunately I don't have a definitive answer for you there Jonathan - in fact I don't have ANY answer at all - but I am hopeful that someone more knowledgeable will chip in here and cast some light on the subject.

Having seen an (obviously) original English baskethilted broadsword with a blade of this type dated to the year 1650 I have *no* doubt that these sorts of blades were obviously being used in England/the UK back then - although the WHY of it - and HOW COMMON they were I really don't know...

John.

PS DO look up the history of the colichemarde blade and its association with that charming rogue Graf von Königsmark - the man attributed with having invented the colichemarde (a man with considerable military experience and an exceptional swordsman...)

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## J.G. Hopkins

John,
Yes, I am fairly certain that the blade is colichemarde.  That is how the dealer described it to my father, and based on my father's description, I would say that it is a colichamarde blade.  (He said, "It has quite a hefty base, and then dramatically tapers to a fine point.")

It is interesting that you have seen a basket hilt with this type of blade before.  Maybe the date given by the dealer IS right after all!  When I originally heard that the sword had a colichemarde blade, I was suspicious that the hilt and blade had been married at some point, and that the sword was some sort of composite created using 18th century parts.  As I browsed the internet and my books looking for anything similar, I began to think that perhaps this sword belonged to an English officer before patterns were regulated.

Thank you for your response!

Jonathan

P.S.  If the sword is in fact "right", I will be even more sad that my father passed on purchasing it!

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## John Oliver

Hi Jonathan,

Yes - DEFINITELY sounds like this sword was a *keeper*...

John.

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## David Critchley

> _Originally posted by J.G. Hopkins_ 
> *John,
> Yes, I am fairly certain that the blade is colichemarde.  That is how the dealer described it to my father, and based on my father's description, I would say that it is a colichamarde blade.  (He said, "It has quite a hefty base, and then dramatically tapers to a fine point.")
> 
> It is interesting that you have seen a basket hilt with this type of blade before.  Maybe the date given by the dealer IS right after all!  When I originally heard that the sword had a colichemarde blade, I was suspicious that the hilt and blade had been married at some point, and that the sword was some sort of composite created using 18th century parts.  As I browsed the internet and my books looking for anything similar, I began to think that perhaps this sword belonged to an English officer before patterns were regulated.
> 
> Thank you for your response!
> 
> Jonathan
> ...


Hi Jonathan,
It's not the 1788 hilt I think, there are too many side bars, but it probably dates from around the same time or slightly earlier 1760-80 probably, so yes pre regulation. You do get infantry officer's field swords of this period with colichmarde blades sometimes, and hilts in this style but this one looks too heavy, more like the dimensions of a cavalry hilt. Personally I'd guess it is either a cavalry officer's dress sword or made up of parts as you suggest.

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## J.G. Hopkins

Thank you for your observations, David.  I asked my father (who knows English furniture, but not swords) to check the hilt to see if there was any indication that the blade was not original (namely, to see if there might be anything about how the iron had aged around the ricasso that might indicate a different original blade shape).  From his perspective, everything looked alright.  

Whether it is really from 1680 as the dealer indicated (and as John has shown that there is precedent), or if it is a cavalry officer's dress sword (and assuming it is all original), it is a rather unique sword.  

John, do you have any pictures of the sword you mentioned earlier?  I am interested in seeing any other examples of such a strange and unique marriage of hilt and blade.

Jonathan

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## E.B. Erickson

Hey all, 
With a thread title like this one has, how could I not take a look? I think David is correct in his assessment of what this sword may be, and it is too bad that it was not purchased!

On the issue of the blade, I think that what people have seen on Mortuarys was a hollow ground broadsword blade of diamond section (not triangular section). I've seen this type on Mortuarys, and they continue in English military use right up into the first quarter or so of the 1700s. Most commonly you see these on the English bilobate military hilts, secondarily on various English baskets. If the photo of a sword only shows the forte of the blade, these broadsword baldes do look a lot like a Colichemarde.

--ElJay

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## John Oliver

Hi Chaps,

Not sure I agree on this one - but having said that the only time I get to read/reply to these threads on SFI is when I'm at work and I never have my books with me... :Smilie: 

I also have to confess that its been 20 years (roughly) since I was full on into my British military swords and even then, I have never owned a 1788 pattern dragoon/cavalry officer's sword and have no experience of the pre-regulation 'patterns' preceding it...

Re: the mortuary with a triangular section blade: on this I am *definite*  :Smilie:  Its a dated blade (1650) and is *not* a hollow ground diamond section blade - it is triangular in cross-section...
(I've checked this with the dealer in question because, funnily enough, its a piece I'm thinking of either buying/trading for...)

I *don't* know if the blade is ORIGINAL to this sword or not - I haven't had the opportunity to study the sword in hand - so THIS is the *big* question mark at this stage...

As to whether or not a triangular section blade on a mortuary baskethilted sword is unusual/impossible/improbable - THIS is something I really don't know either - IF I do get my hands on this sword it will be my very *first* mortuary hilted broadsword and I really *don't* have the experience of having handled/studied these swords before...

So - ANY/ALL experts on Mortuary hilted broadswords out there - HAVE YOU ever encountered such a beast as a 17th century English Mortuary hilted broadsword with a double edged triangular sectioned blade? (help! :Smilie:  )

John.

PS If anyone can recommend a really GOOD reference book on baskethilted swords I'd really appreciate it too...

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## J.G. Hopkins

John,
I do not own the following  book, so I cannot vouch for its usefulness, but there is a thread that mentions it.  The book can be found here:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/184...lance&n=283155

There is also a book by Anthony D. Darling called  Swords for the Highland Regiments, 1757-1784, but as you can see from the title, it won't cover the sword in which you are interested (still a nice, concise book, though).

Keep use posted on what you decide!

Jonathan

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## John Oliver

Thanks for that Jonathan,

I think this is a book I'll need to get - mind you how I'm going to afford to collect BOTH smallswords AND baskethilts I really don't know... :Smilie: 

John.

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## T. Donoho

The hollow ground blade (diamond and 3-sided variety) existed way before the 18th century and there was even a "company" that petitioned the crown in the 17th century to have a monopoly of sorts in the manufacture of hollow blades in England.  The colichemarde, of course, is different in  being a blade with a substantial forte that tapers significantly about 1/3 rd the way down and is creditied to the count for its development, perhaps.  Hollow ground 3-sided blades do turn up (rarely) on rapiers and other swords.  Could it be that those who used them realized well before the popularity of it in the 18th century that the hollow ground 3-sided blade was the perfect thrusting weapon?

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## David Critchley

> _Originally posted by J.G. Hopkins_ 
> *John,
> I do not own the following  book, so I cannot vouch for its usefulness, but there is a thread that mentions it.  The book can be found here:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/184...lance&n=283155
> 
> There is also a book by Anthony D. Darling called  Swords for the Highland Regiments, 1757-1784, but as you can see from the title, it won't cover the sword in which you are interested (still a nice, concise book, though).
> 
> Keep use posted on what you decide!
> ...



I own both books John, 

Mazansky is excellent , but it is a study of the hilt only, not the blade. The examples are taken from 15th C to the patterns of the 19th C and it is done in great detail, very much the same way Norman dealt with rapier and smallsword hilts, and he deals with English as well as Scottish baskets.

Darling's book deals with only one type of basket hilt, that issued to Highland troops between the 1750s and early 1780s and mostly produced by "Jeffries" (IEFRIS).

Two others worth looking at are 
Scottish Swords and Dirks by Wallace (Ken Trotman has just reprinted this)and 
Culloden: the Sword and the Sorrows by The National Trust for Scotland which is the catalogue of items displayed at the Culloden Moor centre in 1996. 

David

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## E.B. Erickson

Hello John,
Since the Mort in question is confirmed as having a triangular broadsword blade, then there's a good chance that you've got a very interesting and unique sword there. While I've never seen a Mortuary with this type of blade, the English were experimenting with some odd blade types around the middle of the 1600s, so the blade could be original to the hilt.

The most common (but still pretty rare) odd blade was the isoceles triangle cross section single-edged rapier blades that are seen on swords from ca. 1650-60.  Another se rapier type is a very drawn-out diamond section blade, so that it looks like an isoceles traingle. Both these types were sometimes hollow ground, sometimes not.

The oddest blade of the period that I've seen was one that went through Wallis and Wallis in the mid-80s. It was of acute right triangle section, se, with the flat side being on the left. It had profuse maker's stamps (German?), and was in an English baskethilt that had the grip base/langet of the mortuary type.

So again, you may have a unique sword there. Have you had a chance to examine it yet?

--ElJay

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## Bill Goodwin

I too, have never came across a Mortuary with such a blade.  Went back through all my Mortuary data and found notta.  Eljay is correct in say you've came across a very unique piece indeed.

Would absolutely love to see pictures & specs. of such a piece and it would do wonders for all my Mortuary compiled research data.

Cheers,

Bill
aka the Mortuary Maniac

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## John Oliver

Still 'working on it' chaps :Smilie: 

With a bit of luck, the guy will do a partial trade - about all I can afford right now (one of my swords and some cash for the mortuary hilter...)

I've asked for shots of the peened over tang, where the blade shoulders meet the basket and so on - to get an idea/feel for it - if it all checks out alright - considering the blade has the date '1650' on it - yes, I think this is a particularly unique piece indeed...

I'm not wealthy enough to be able to afford to build up a large collection of mortuary hilters and early Scottish baskethilters - but I *would* like to have at least one or two good examples of each - so if they can also be that little bit unusual/rare even better... The guy wants about US$ 4000 or so for this piece - I'm guessing (?) this is a pretty good price for such a rare sword if its in good condition and genuine?

John.

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## J.G. Hopkins

I don't know about pricing for the mortuary sword you are considering, John, but now I am really regretting not pushing my father to purchase the sword pictured at the beginning of this thread--the dealer came down to 1200 USD!  Ahh!  Oh well, I am but a humble student and could not afford even that price at the moment.  

John, will you be posting any pictures?

Jonathan

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## John Oliver

Hi Jonathan,

IF the deal goes ahead (the chap actually has TWO baskethilters I'm after - both C17th - the mortuary and a regular Scots broadsword with 'andria ferara' blade (would LOVE to know the real story behind that signature one day - whether it really was just an early German attempt at coming up with a famous brand name that everyone would want or whatever...)) - if the deal goes ahead I will DEFINITELY be posting some pictures - might even set up my tripod/camera and do it PROPERLY (I *can* take decent pictures but it takes me a *lot* of time because I'm still learning and I'm not the most patient of people :Smilie: ...

Re: the sword your dad had: YES - I think I would be hitting my head against the wall by now if I was you :Smilie:  

The two types of swords that I *really* feel a connection with are the smallsword (and its grandaddy the rapier :Smilie:  ) and the baskethilted broadswords of a century before (I also see a LOT of connections between these types of sword as well...)

I'm hopeful the deal will go ahead because if it does I'll actually end up with not only a GOOD DATED mortuary hilted sword - I'll also have one that is quite RARE (like the one your dad had! - Sorry - just had to rub it in a bit there :Smilie: ...)

John.

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## J.G. Hopkins

John,
My father is visiting this week and he said he would contact the dealer who had the sword that started this thread.  I am very excited!  I hope no one else has been clever enough to snap it up!

On another note, I have an English basket-hilted backsword from c.1740-1750.  I do not have it here with me, it is still with the bulk of my collection at my parents house (where I feel it is safest), therefore, I will not be able to post any pictures, so I will describe it from memory.  The blade has three narrow fullers and is stamped ANDREA FERRARA on both sides.  There appears to be a king's head maker's mark (making it a German blade?) on the blade as well, but it is hard to say for sure (blade is similar to Neumann 247.S).  The hilt has an oval reins ring and is very similar in appearance to 274.S in Neumann.  The overall dimensions of the sword are also very similar to 247.S.

Basket hilts are great fun, and have become quite expensive.  Perhaps after a small-sword or two I will have the pleasure of owning a second basket-hilted sword.

I hope the deal goes ahead.  I am very excited for you!

Jonathan

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## T. Donoho

I have to admit, I do like basket hilts...English and Scottish.  I think Neumann's book got me interested in those...it's such a great overview of blades that could have been used by all the troops in the American Revolution.  (Where rapiers go, I tend to like the English ones with the "cup" made of the bars, if you know what I mean.)  I was reading some of North's comments today where he mentions that officers' swords of the late 17th century were for the most part heavy versions of small-swords...brass hilts with substantial blades.  Just sharing some thoughts.

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## Bill Goodwin

Moer thoughts shared.......

Have been collecting data on Mortaury's for the last 4 yrs.....could say I'm obsessed with them.  Have been the bane of my collecting for some time until recently when bitten by the vintage military sword bug.

Here's a shot of my functional repro. collection

Cheers,

Bill

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## Bill Goodwin

OOPs!  Forgot the photo.....

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## John Oliver

Hello chaps,

Here we go - I've grabbed what pictures there are available of the two baskethilts I'm after - the English Mortuary hilt and the Scots baskethilt...

It looks like the deal is nearly done - and before I complete it I thought I'd just 'double check' with those more knowledgeable on baskethilts than myself whether I'm doing well or not...

The deal I'm doing involves a partial trade/cash up to the value of US$ 4200 (approximately) for the mortuary hilt and the same amount for the Scots baskethilt...

Since the urge to acquire these two baskethilts is NOT accompanied by any real degree of research/knowledge (at least with the smallswords and other bits I've collected I've 'bought the right books' and done my homework) I thought it prudent to get ANY/all advice and comment I can from my fellow forumites...

Many thanks in advance,

John.

PS Apologies for hijacking this thread for my own purposes :Smilie:

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## John Oliver

Here's the first pic...

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## John Oliver

and again...

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## John Oliver

third pic...

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## John Oliver

fourth pic...

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## John Oliver

Here's the first pic of the Scots baskethilt...

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## John Oliver

second...

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## John Oliver

third...

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## John Oliver

fourth...

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## John Oliver

fifth...

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## John Oliver

sixth...

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## John Oliver

seventh...

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## John Oliver

Number 8 of 8 :Smilie: 

ANY/ALL info, feedback, ideas, etc. - on either of these swords - would be much appreciated chaps...

MY idea so far is that both swords are genuine (as far as I can tell) - I think both sword blades are looking pretty much original to their hilts and both swords seem to be overall in reasonably good condition for their respective ages...

Beyond that - well - this is new (and exciting!) territory for me - I look forward to your comments gents... :Smilie: 

John.

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## Bill Goodwin

Grand photo's, especially the Mortuary..oh, ah! 

The price's you quoted seem to be in the ball park range for piece's such as these.

I'd be quite chuffed as well, given the chance & expendable funds to acquire such piece's.

Best of luck with the deal and congrats to boot!

Waiting to hear more about them.

Cheers,

Bill

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## T. Donoho

Very nice, John!

I am not handler experienced in these types of swords, but they do look genuine based on what reading I have done.

Good luck!

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## John Oliver

Thanks for that Tom/Bill,

NOW - got some MORE pics from the dealer - lets pop these up and see what you chaps think - if these shots cast any further light on things - one shot shows that there is missing leather from the grip of the Scots broadsword (which I think is probably inevitable after 300 years or so) and another shot shows a break in one of the downwards facing bars (not sure if I would call these two 'loops' pas d'ane or quillions or what really?)

Anyway - getting CLOSER to doing the deal chaps - so any more feedback from you baskethilt experts out there would be GREATLY appreciated! :Smilie: 

Thanks in advance,

John.

PS Here's the FIRST PIC showing the pommel/peened over tang of the mortuary hilter...

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## John Oliver

Mortuary hilter again - the grip...

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## John Oliver

Front of guard...

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## John Oliver

Okay - here' s the outside of the basket...

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## John Oliver

Peened over tang and pommel of Scots broadsword...

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## John Oliver

Grip of Scots sword...

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## John Oliver

missing section of grip covering...

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## John Oliver

Break in downwards facing bar of hilt...

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## John Oliver

Underside of basket...

(This is the last shot for the moment...)

So - guys - should I be asking for shots of anything else? What do we think of what can be seen in these shots? Any/all feedback gratefully accepted (before I open my wallet :Smilie:  )

John.

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## John Oliver

Okay - I lied :Smilie:  

ONE more shot of the mortuary hilter...

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## Bill Goodwin

Love ALL the Mortuary shots John!  Keep them coming!

Thr shark skin grip on the Mort. seems to be in fine shape indeed and the the chiselled motifs of the bowl also seem to be in fine order of such a piece.

With your permission, I'd like to snitch these photos and add them in to my Mortaury photo data.

The Scot basket & guard seem to be in decent shape other than the defects you've presented.  You may wish to negotiate a bit of a price break for these.  Are you palnning on trying to re-furbish the Scot grip and /or get the break in the guard repaired or just leave it as is.

Great stuff & thanks for sharing.

Cheers,
Bill

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## J.G. Hopkins

John,
Thank you for posting the pictures!  I especially like the mortuary sword.  I have never had the opportunity to handle one.  I have only been able to gaze upon them in glass cases at museums with lust in my eyes!

Jonathan

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## John Oliver

Thanks for that Jonathan and Bill! :Smilie: 

UNFORTUNATELY the one thing I was *hoping* would happen *hasn't* yet - I was hoping that a dozen baskethilt experts would be attracted to this thread and type many words of wisdom for me about the relative quality/value/merit of these swords I'm about to purchase and so on - oh well...:-(

I'm a bit out of my depth here - yes I have about 25 years of experience with British and other sword collecting - but most of that time with military swords - several years on jap swords and several years on Third Reich daggers - now I'm trying to 'learn on the run' about these baskethilts which I've *always* been curious about but never before ventured into... :Smilie: 

I am fairly confident that both swords are genuine and of *reasonable* quality - but I wouldn't think either of them would have been carried by an officer or high-ranking chap (although I might be wrong there - the blade on the mortuary hilt is obviously of a good quality and so is the blade on the Scots baskethilt...)

What are your thoughts chaps? How do these two pieces compare to others/the ones you've seen out there?

John.

PS Its nearly 4am and I'm hitting the beer (my own homebrew of course :Smilie:  - just goes to show what havoc permanent night shift wreaks on us! :Smilie:  (My day is your night and so on... :Smilie:

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## T. Donoho

John:

I like in particular the English mortuary hilted swords...beautiful swords!  They tend to be pricey, though...but, after all, they are c. 1645, right?

I recall the Arms and Armor Annual of c. 1974 had a great article devoted to basket and morturary hilts...very authoratative...same volume has the section on Polish hussar swords...very good, indeed.  I know that is no real help to you here...but wanted to mention it to you.

Suggestion: Before finalizing purchase I would get in writing the details including age, condition and any damage and price to be paid...if he will not put it in writing I would pass...what honest man of the sword would not do this for a fellow lover of it?

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## J.G. Hopkins

My previous post was not helpful, so I would just like to second what Tom said.  Very sound advice, Tom!

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## T. Donoho

Thanks, J.G.!

I would like to believe that we collectors of old swords are an honorable lot insofar as transactions of old swords go.  We are custodians of this history and should work together as gentlemen (or gentlewomen).

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## Bill Goodwin

John,

Vintage Mortuary's don't turn up as often as Scottish basket-hilts. 

One reason is their short life/production span (they were only made from about 1635 to 1670), so anytime one comes around it's quite a pleasure to see.   Not overly familiar with the Scot. basket-hilt, since I've spent the last 3-4 years researching & collecting all sorts of data on Mortaury's (books, articles, photos, and  1 repro (Hanwei/CASI sharp version) and 1 semi-custom from
Armour Class of Scotland (my avatar pic )

If your interest holds in the basket-hilt, mortuary genre a good book of hilt reference is Cyril Mazansky's "British Basket-Hilted Swords".  Both swords you are in persuit of, as I said before, seem to be in the usual range of what is out there (with the except of the unique blade on that Mortuary).

Have a pint for me, it's been a long week.............

Cheers,

            Bill

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## John Oliver

Guys,

I think I can see the beginnings of a thread to be called, "Cult of the Baskethilt" :Smilie: 

THANKS to you ALL so far for your advice and encouragement - even though this is partially a swap/trade I still have to throw in several grand US as well - so for someone like me it really IS a considerable investment (I'm not exactly a high income sort of person nowadays... :Smilie: 

SO - I want to be sure that what I'm getting is 100% genuine and the 'best bang for the buck' I can get - but also bearing in mind that if it was a 100% cash deal I wouldn't be able to do it in the first place...

Based on what you've all said/not said - both in the thread and privately - HERE is where I think I'm at now:

Both swords look 100% genuine and original - both have better quality blades than hilts - the mortuary hilter being a comparatively rare weapon because of its dated triangular section blade. Having said this there's nothing wrong with either hilt - they are simple of 'good' or 'reasonable' quality rather than 'excellent' or 'outstanding'...

Overall: both swords are worth having and a good starting point to have an original/genuine example of each type to begin with (without having to mortgage the house :Smilie:  ) - and later on down the track if I end up rolling in money I could perhaps look at upgrading both to higher end pieces or keeping them and simply adding a few more higher end pieces to the collection? 

What do you all think - a reasonable assessment? 

My guess is that neither of these swords is going to go DOWN in value - and that they should really only go UP in value over time...?

Okay - have to rush off to pick up the missus before she spends too much of my sword money buying silly things like food/groceries/etc... :Smilie: 

John.

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## R.E.Herron

I would be wary of any basket hilt type swords that have lightweight thrusting blades.

All the basket and mortuary hilts I have seen force the bearer to grab with a closed fist.  If you try this type of grip with any sword, you'll quickly see that the thrusting options are very, very limited, and of course thrusting blades, other than making scratches,  have almost zero use as cutting weapons.  

All of the basket hilts I have examined that appear original have heavy, edged blades that maintain most of their width up to the point.  They are great cleavers, but not thrusters.

I think it's possible that some people would have swapped cutting blades for thrusting blades during the period, but since that change would have destroyed the serviceability of the sword, I don't know why they would do it.  I think it is probable such modifications would have been scoffed at, if not outright prohibited, in military circles.

Doesn't mean they didn't exist, but before buying check carefully!!!

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## John Oliver

Hi "R.E"!

The interesting thing with the triangular blade on this mortuary hilter is that it is very much a double edged chopping blade as well as a thrusting blade - but obviously the cross-section it has means that the edges are 'chisel ground' rather than having the usual 'v' section'...

Having been a bit of a 'knife nut' before I got the sword bug I had quite a few fixed blade and folding blade knives with chisel ground blades (mostly so-called 'tactical' knives...)

From first hand experience I can say that chisel ground is the *easiest* edge to maintain in the field - and its also a really VICIOUS cutter (does horrendous damage) BUT the down-side to this is that as it starts cutting into flesh it doesn't cut 'straight' - it starts wanting to turn in on itself (if that makes sense) and eventually wants to transcribe a circle if you keep cutting long enough...

The other interesting thing is that a chisel ground needs to match you being either left handed or right handed (if that makes sense too?...)

There you go - several homebrews already consumed but hopefully the above makes a certain amount of sense :Smilie: 

John.

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## John Oliver

PS...

Chaps - "R.E" has raised an important point there - looking at the picture of the peened over tang of the mortuary hilter (page 2 of this thread) what is the general consensus? 

ORIGINAL? Re-bladed at some time? What do you think?

John.

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## R.E.Herron

John, my comments were directed more towards the first sword in this thread, but they are general in nature.   I've been collecting (buying rarely...wanting to buy frequently) over the last ten years and I have the good fortune to know several sword dealers, one of whom has an amazing eye for catching flaws in swords, especially 17thC swords.   Both of them have educated me on how widespread fraud is in the arms and arms collecting field.  When I was first collecting I was cheated when I bought an "original" rapier with a period blade and a 19thC or newer hilt.   Kind sword dealers at the same arms fair warned me to be cautious, but I had money in my pocket and I was in love....anyone else know this feeling?!

Since then I've tried to be more careful in my review of swords.  One test I use to immediately evaluate the originality of a sword is if the sword could be used as intended.  While there is no perfect test, if the type of blade doesn't match the type of hilt, that's a red flag.  Is the sword ridiculously blade or hilt-heavy...another red flag.   If the sword passes those tests, then I start looking at the relative conditions of the blade, hilt, guard, etc....

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## John Oliver

Hi again "R.E" (whats your first name BTW? :Smilie: 

VERY practical and commensense input from your good self there...

I actually felt my face grimacing/teeth grinding involuntarily when you mentioned one of my FAVOURITE *HATES* - *parts swords* - swords made up of maybe an original/period blade but fake hilt or the other way around...:-(

I too have been 'had' terribly in the past - one of the reasons I will *never* again get involved in jap sword collecting (what a nightmare that was!) and why I will stick with British/European swords...

Having said that, its still *so easy* to be CAUGHT - and YES, I've had that 'falling in love' experience with a sword I just 'HAD TO HAVE' - only to find out later on I'd just invested in a parts sword or worse:-(((

The one thing I can add to what you've said is this though - if you think that fraud is widespread when it comes to antique western weapons you should try collecting NIHONTO - all you need is UNLIMITED CASH, LIMITED INTELLIGENCE and the ability to handle CONSIDERABLE pain each time you find out how badly you've been screwed over... :Smilie: 

BTW - ONE of the (potentially) best weapons/tools to HELP US as collectors *avoid* being cheated/defrauded (I think) is this forum - as long as we can count on those collectors with more knowledge than ourselves to chip in and give us their feedback when we post pictures of proposed purchases/etc. who knows? This MIGHT just save a few young/eager/inexperienced collectors from making a mistake that will sour them forever and potentially turn them off the collecting of edged weapons...

John.

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## R.E.Herron

...to SFI now.   This forum is the most interesting thing I have yet come across on the internet.  

I can imagine that collecting japanese swords is a nightmare.  I've never studied them, but having the same basic types of sword produced for the better part of a millenia must make it extremely difficult to evaluate the swords.  And with so many easily interchangeable parts....yow, buyer beware!!!

I like collecting European swords because they progressed through very definite phases as the manufacturing technology and schools of fencing rapidly evolved.  The Europeans never got stuck on one style....they kept moving on to ever more efficient means of killing.   Makes it much easier to have some frame of reference when you're a collector!

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## T. Donoho

"Cult of the Basket Hilt"...why not?

I think one thing (as mentioned) to bear in mind is how does it feel...swords were made for a job and generally tend to feel good in the hand and ready for that job.

It does seem that unblemished peened tangs are rare nowadays...and swords, naturally, did receive service from time to time after the art of peening the tang was lost.  Old swords are, of course, prime targets for fraud...not so much the small sword...because of the refinement required to make it, it would not be very profitable to fake it.

Still, we need to remember that the hollow ground and triangular blade was NOT and invention of the 17th or 18th century...certainly shallow cup hilted swords and estocs are found with early long triangular or hollow ground blades.  And, we must remember that England was known to support some manufacturers with some new ideas at the time.  Who knows, maybe there was a thought about mounting experimental or unorthodox blades to basket hilts at one time or another.  And if you look at some of the English basket hilts mounted with double edged blades, you find some of them with blades that assume a taper that would allow for some intricate play of the point...not all were restricted to the cut alone.

Confounding matters is the fascination the Victorians had for things Gothic, Renaissance and Scottish (the Engleton Tournament as one manifestation of this happened in the time of the queen's early reign where all manner of weapons were produced including newly manufactured "old"  swords and the marrying of old genuine parts and blades) and the natural clamor to lay hands on old or old-looking swords.

I guess we need to consider many aspects when looking at old swords.  And as I said, I have seen and read about basket hilts in England that did bring into play the point, not just the edge...maybe a bit unusual but it did happen.

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## E.B. Erickson

Back again,
Just for the fun of it (and to make comparisons with the swords in this thread), take a look at Bonham's Arntique A&A auction coming up April 6. They have seven Morts up for auction, ranging from the decent to the crude. Some need some restoration, none are in nice condition. AND they have some English rapiers, AND an English basket ca. 1700, AND, just for Tom, a stack of smallswords.

--ElJay

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## T. Donoho

Thanks, EB!

Would you please post a link if possible.

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## John Oliver

Hi guys,

I've had a look at their site ELJay - not all items seem to have a picture and the ones that do seem to have a picture of 3 swords instead of 1 - in every case?

What am I missing out on here? (Just doesn't seem to make any sense? :Smilie: 

DEFINITELY a few nice looking English rapiers, some worse for wear mortuary hilts and some VERY nice smallswords - will be VERY interesting to see if some of these swords only reach the very reasonable estimated prices they've listed for them - some of the prices estimated seem WAY TO CHEAP as far as I can tell (are there horrendous additional charges added after the hammer falls or what am I missing here?)

John.

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## John Oliver

Oops...

NEARLY FORGOT - GUYS! I've *done the deed* - I've sent the money and the trade swords are on their way - HOPEFULLY I'll have my new toys some time this week :Smilie:  As soon as they get here I'll be sure to post some better pics! :Smilie: 

I'm shortly to be the proud owner of my first two baskethilts :Smilie: 

John.

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## Bill Goodwin

Congrats John,



Yes, more pics & maybe some basic specs. & measurements, if you please.

Cheers,

            Bill

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## T. Donoho

Especially, could you post a pic or two detailing the inside of the basket if possible?

thanks.

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## John Oliver

Hi Tom/Bill/RE etc...

Yes - I'm quite excited - hanging out to get my new toys...

I think I've got myself a couple of very nice blades - and will probably be spending the money to have a couple of decent leather scabbards made up for them...

I'll make sure I get some measurements for you when they arrive Bill - and will try to post some decent pics too - with a decent black background and my little Canon camera I can usually get okay shots if I fiddle around long enough :Smilie: 

Tom - who knows? Might even get YOU addicted to baskethilts too - mine is an addiction that started as an urge YEARS ago - an 'itch' I never scratched - well NOW I'm scratching it :Smilie: 

I see a *lot* of parallels between smallswords and baskethilts too - because they are both weapons that were worn by military and civilians alike - up until 1746 the Scots baskethilted broadsword was VERY MUCH a civilian weapon too (just like the smallsword)...

As to the status of the mortuary hilted broadswords - I'm not really sure - I know they were carried and used by cavalry during the civil war period but a question as to their peacetime and/or civilian carriage may not even be practical - simply because the mortuary hilters were not around for that long?

As you can see, I *desperately* need to get a few good reference books on both baskethilts *and* the English Civil War period - to fill out the rather considerable gaps in my knowledge here :Smilie:  I think that book by Mazansky might be a good place to start :Smilie: 

John.

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## John Hart

> _Originally posted by John Oliver_ 
> *I've had a look at their site ELJay - not all items seem to have a picture and the ones that do seem to have a picture of 3 swords instead of 1 - in every case?*


Hi John,

Bonhams economise on pictures by having one pic do three swords.  The catalogue entry for the first sword has the pic and the following two entries "refer back" to the same picture.  However, it isn't always easy to work this out, as last time I looked not all swords had pictures of any kind.  It must take them time to load all the photos, I guess.

Best approach is to email them and ask for more pics plus a condition report on any swords that you're particularly interested in.

John

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## Bill Goodwin

As far as reference books on the ECW and swords used during that time,  "Arms & Armour of the English Civil War" by David,  Blackmore is a great little book to have too.

There are a pant load of books deaing with the ECW strictly.  Have about 6 or 7 in my library, but that's realy the tip of the iceberg.

Cheers, Bill

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## T. Donoho

Has anyone heard of backswords and mortuary hilts (single edge bladed basket hilts) also referred to as riding swords?  I have run across this from time to time and there is some discussion of it in the Arms and Armor Annual of c. 1974.  Also, a simple hilt with cross bar and knuckle guard and maybe an outboard ring with a blade as described above has been termed a riding sword as well.

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## Bill Goodwin

I have seen the term used with "side-swords" and/or backswords.

Have seen "English half-basket" used to describe Mortuary's.

Maybe the term was applied to Mortuarys as they were mainly used by the cavalry units in the ECW, both Royalists & Parliamentary.


Cheers,

            Bill

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## John Oliver

Interesting this - you see quite a few European "Horseman's Swords" on the net at any one time - usually Swiss or German - usually half (horizontally) or three quarter baskets - and usually backsword bladed rather than broadsword bladed...

I seem to remember the term 'riding sword' having a very different meaning in England though (?) - basically a 'knightly sword'?

John.

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## T. Donoho

The riding sword I am talking about is that referred to so well in the annual I mentioned above.  It is included in a study of Englsih basket hilts and is basically a simple guard consisting of maybe a knuckle bow, loop and quillon or a very simple half shell and a single edged blade.  Maybe this is a term specific to England and that's why the author uses it in this treatise on English swords.

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## Bill Goodwin

Tom,

Something along the lines of this?

This made by Armour Class of Scotland

Cheers,

          Bill

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## Bill Goodwin

other side

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## T. Donoho

Bill:

Could be like that.

The ones I saw were c. 1660.

I assumed "riding sword" referred not necessarily to a horseman's sword but to an informal sword maybe worn when riding by military and civilians alike.

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## David Critchley

> _Originally posted by T. Donoho_ 
> *The riding sword I am talking about is that referred to so well in the annual I mentioned above.  It is included in a study of Englsih basket hilts and is basically a simple guard consisting of maybe a knuckle bow, loop and quillon or a very simple half shell and a single edged blade.  Maybe this is a term specific to England and that's why the author uses it in this treatise on English swords.*


Its now days a collectors term for a civlian sword with a military weight blade, or a light minimalist military sword ( as you suggest  Tom - circa 1630) but the term has changed over time. In  the past (1500 and before) it was sometimes used as a term for a "spare" or second sword attached to the saddle.

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## T. Donoho

Thanks for that, David!

I have seen photos of these with Honslow hilts too...not short like a hanger type blade but with a longer straight blade of 30 inches or so.

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## Bill Goodwin

To me, (just me now,) the term "riding sword" is kinda like the term "cut & thrust sword".    It can  generallly apply to a range of different hilt styles.

Bill

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## John Oliver

Hi Bill,

I'd be inclined to say the same thing myself - simply because I have seen so *many* different types of swords described as 'riding swords' - from different periods and countries and with differing hilt types - everything from straight crossguards only to half and three quarter baskethilts...

John.

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## John Oliver

Hello chaps! :Smilie: 

MY TWO BASKETHILTED SWORDS HAVE ARRIVED! :Smilie: 

Unfortunately, I had to rush straight off to work within minutes of them arriving - but at least I've had the chance to have a quick look...

Apart from the fact that some IDIOT has ground the cutting edges on the Scots baskethilt to make them blunt (possibly to use the sword for highland dancing or something similar) and the fact that the blade on the English baskethilt (the mortuary hilter) is actually of HOLLOW GROUND *DIAMOND* SECTION (*not* triangular section) they both seem to be very good swords...

The blade on the Scots baskethilt seems to be of very high quality indeed - one of the best tempered and balanced blades I've ever handled... The mortuary hilter's blade is a very nice example as well - lots of interesting engraving and work on it - definitely a sword that means business too...

More insights (and some photos) as soon as I can manage them :Smilie: 

John.

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## Bill Goodwin

Bloody Brilliant John!

Can't wait to see and hear more about them.

Can guess your rather chuffed to finally have them in hand.

Cheers,

            Bill

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## T. Donoho

Interesting.

In any event, hollow ground blades (triangular and, perhaps, more commonly, diamond shaped) did appear on cavalry swords...they were early types so had at least rudimentary edges of sorts but the value, I believe, was the realization that the design was perfect for a thrusting sword.  I think if you look at that section of a book where North contributes you will see what I mean with that cavalry sword he pictures with a simple brass hilt (raised motif in keeping with the time c. 1660) of knuckle guard and outboard shell with substantial heavy wire wrapped grip mounted to a substantial blade with a raised central rib that would suggest it is of hollow form, triangular or diamond.  I have always liked this sword for its style and potential effectiveness.  I think its in Swords and Hilt Weapons, where North contributes in several areas.

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## Javier Ramos

Good day,

I would like to take advantage of the presence of people with knowledge on basket hilts and ask what do you think of the sword in this old thread:

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...threadid=53284

Thank you. Regards.
Javier Ramos

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## Bill Goodwin

Javier,

Have seen similar designs.  Off the top of me head, I believe Cyril Mazansky's book "British Basket-hilt Swords"shows something like it and also there may be something in Charles Martyn's " British Cavalry Swords  from 1600 to...".  Can't be for certain since I'm at work and don't have access to all my research material.   I'll check further once at home,(if someone else hasn't fully clarified it for you by then)  I hate being stuck at work, away from my books when "real" important stuff comes up. :Cool:  

With the multi-bar basket, Pappenheimer-ish pierced plates and S-curved quillons, could be English or German design, but surely falls in the Thirty Year War scheme of usage (maybe a bit earlier)

Good looking piece all the same.

Cheers,

            Bill

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## E.B. Erickson

Hi Xavier,
The rivetted construction on the basket leads me to think it's either modern or Victorian. The pommel looks to be from the 15 or 1600s.

Hope this helps a bit!

--ElJay

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## Javier Ramos

Thanks for the opinions. Maybe I will try to get the books.

The thing handles well even with that heavy weight (almost 1.5 kg). You can chose to cross fingers over the ricasso or not. What confuses me most is the mixture of a long grip, that would put it closer to 1600 and a thumb ring that would go later in the century, what would fit well with a Victorian mixing-up.

Javier

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## John Oliver

Hi guys,

Here are a few more quick pictures of my two new baskethilts that arrived this week...

I hope you like them...

This first shot shows up some of the blade engraving detail on the mortuary hilter...

John.

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## John Oliver

Here's another shot...

BTW - the strange looking 'tag' on the mort is an antique itself I'd say - I'm guessing its from some Victorian antique collector's club or something similar...

John.

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## John Oliver

...and another one...

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## John Oliver

Here's another shot of the blades...

All for now - not my best pictures but hopefully it gives you chaps an idea of what my two new toys look like up close... :Smilie: 

John.

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## T. Donoho

Wow!

Very nice, indeed!

Have fun, John!

P.S.

You seemed a bit down before about these.  But they are very nice working swords...and that mortuary hilted one probably saw service in the civil war.  Awesome!

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## Bill Goodwin

Congrats John!  Thanks for posting more pics too.  Any eye candy
to do with Mortuary's is a real treat for me.

Enjoy you new acquititions and please any more info. to share is most welcome.

Cheers,

          Bill

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## John Oliver

Hi Tom! :Smilie: 

The ONLY thing I'm not 100% happy about is the fact that the blade on the Scots baskethilt is totally BLUNT - both edges are basically 'false edges' - rounded and about 1mm thick...

One chap I talked to in Scotland mentioned that this is not unusual with later broadswords (C19th ones) as in many cases they are being used nowadays for family members doing highland dancing and so on...

I've also heard from other collectors a couple of other theories there - but what STUMPS me is how a FIGHTING SWORD like this that would/should have originally had a RAZOR SHARP BLADE is now totally blunt (like it never had an edge...)

The blade in all other respects is of superb quality - the best temper I have seen - wonderful balance and as light as a feather - this is truly a high quality blade - but also a very BLUNT one...

I guess my question is: IS THIS NORMAL? IS this something I should be worried about?

John.

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## T. Donoho

John:

I would consider what Aylward said about misguided fools who did all sorts of strange things to small swords that fell into their unknowing hands...I suspect this applies to just about any sword including a once fantastic basket hilt broadswords...who knows why they did the things they did.  Another (remote) theory is maybe it was blunted at some point to make a training sword equal in every way to the heft and balance of a true fighting sword, without the risk of cutting one another.

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## John Oliver

Tom,

Definitely a possibility there...

Call me crazy (its 4:20am here) but I stayed up and did a few more shots of the mortuary hilt for you all - posting them now before I get myself off to bed...

The engraving/decoration to the blade is MOST interesting - I've tried HARD to get it to come out in these shots but it wasn't easy...

John.

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## John Oliver

Here's another shot...

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## John Oliver

another shot of the blade...

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## John Oliver

More hilt shots...

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## John Oliver

another hilt shot...

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## John Oliver

hilt again...

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## John Oliver

One more of the hilt...

Hope you enjoyed these shots chaps...

John.

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