# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  Mameluke - 11th Light Dragoons?

## Matthew Honey

Hi there everyone,

I'm looking to verify some research I have been doing on an early (i believe) mameluke. it is marked on the blade and on the ecusson "XI". the XI on the ecusson, is nestled inside a bugle and on the blade, there is a strung bugle above the XI. Could it be a rifle regiment instead of light dragoon? I could not find any information to show that an 11th rifle regiment existed within this swords time.

Dating: It is maker marked "J. Prosser No. 9, Charing Cross, London". In _Swords for Sea Service_, I see Prosser in service from 1797-1853. Since it is not marked "late-Cullum" whom Prosser succeeded, we know that it must be from 1798 on. The maker name does not include the title/description "Sword Cutler to the King and Royal Family" which occurred at some point in 1799. Therefore this must date it to 1798/early 1799. Does this make sense or have I erred? I would presume if he had already been granted the ability to mark on his swords "Sword Cutler to the King", he would not pass up on any opportunity to apply that to the blade, especially on an officers sword. I see a few examples in Richard Dellar's book that are marked to Prosser with that title.

The other puzzling thing about this mameluke is the motto under the XI. It is "ASPERA SPERNO" which I have been unsuccessful in satisfactorily translating or attributing to any regiment.

The scabbard is steel, painted gold, a very solid scabbard made for field service I would guess. 

End to end the mameluke is 87.5 cm. Blade is 74.8cm.

Thanks for your time and knowledge!

Matt

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

What a beauty. Eric

----------


## Richard Dellar

Matthew

The sword looks to me as though it dates from around 1815-25. May I suggest 11th Native Light Infantry (Army of India) ...

----------


## L. Braden

Aspera sperno: I despise difficulties; I scorn hardships.

----------


## Matthew Honey

Eric: Thank you, it is quite a sturdy piece and pleasing to the eye in its simplicity.

Richard: Thank you. Question though, if it dated from 1815-25, would it not be marked on the blade under Prosser "Sword Cutler to the King and his Family"? or was this not always consistently done? I've done a little looking into the 11th Native  Light Infantry since you mentioned it - not a lot of information out there it seems in trying to match up the motto. I'll keep looking.

L.Braden: Thank you for the translation.

----------


## L. Braden

Glad to oblige!
Depending upon the dialect, "Aspera sperno" also means "I sever/remove adversity/adversities", which perhaps best suits a sword than a family or company motto.

----------


## Richard Dellar

> Eric: Thank you, it is quite a sturdy piece and pleasing to the eye in its simplicity.
> 
> Richard: Thank you. Question though, if it dated from 1815-25, would it not be marked on the blade under Prosser "Sword Cutler to the King and his Family"? or was this not always consistently done? I've done a little looking into the 11th Native  Light Infantry since you mentioned it - not a lot of information out there it seems in trying to match up the motto. I'll keep looking.
> 
> L.Braden: Thank you for the translation.


Matthew

Prosser was appointed 'Sword Cutler in Ordinary' to King George IV on 5 April 1820 and from that time onwards until his death in 1837, he appears to have consistently used 'Sword Cutler to the King' on his blades. Prior to 1820, the picture is inconsistent - in general most pre-1820 Prosser swords I have seen just say 'Prosser, Charing Cross, London' although I do have one sword that can positively be dated between 1811 and 1815 which says 'Prosser, Maker to the Prince Regent' (the Regency being from 1811 to 1820). Therefore, I would revised my dating of your sword to c. 1820-25. Stylistically it sits very happily within those dates, I certainly could not see it being as early as 1798-99, in fact the British campaigns in Egypt which led to the adoption of mameluke sabres had not even started at that time.

Richard

----------


## Matthew Honey

Hi Richard,

Thank you so much for the info. I agree 1798 does seem to be a bit early as I have read in your book that "1798 -1801 [was] the first time that many western European armies had come in direct contact with such a sword". I'd just like to beg your patience a little longer to clarify a few things to make sure i am understanding things correctly. 

1) In _Swords for Sea Service_ , Vol. 2, pg. 300, it lists Prosser, John, 1797-1853, below it says "Sword-Cutler . In 1799 Sword-Cutler to the King and Royal Family and in 1827 to the King and H.R.H. The Lord High Admiral. In 1854 he joined Tatham" also on page 109 of your book, I see a picture of a mameluke from c. 1807-10 etched "Prosser, Sword Cutler to the King, Charing Cross, London"

2) the sword I have pictured above (perhaps my pictures are not very well taken, just with an iPhone) looks almost identical to the sword you have pictured on page 109 of your book i.e. same blade shape, same grip and quillons, except for 3 key things a) the grip is black- horn? instead of ivory b) the scabbard is completely different and c)it only says "Prosser, No. 9 Charing Cross, London as you have stated above for pre-1820 Prosser swords.

Thank you for your patience and understanding, I appreciate your wealth of knowledge.

Matthew

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

I have been looking for a US Marine mameluke 19th century with little success.  I have purchased m1841 militias in eagle heads and knight heads as they use the cross type guards also. I will expand my search to the early British mameluke as yours is stunning. I own no mamelukes but admire them. Thanks for all the info Matthew, Richard and L. Braden. What type wood is the grip and what language is"Aspera sperno"? Regards Eric

----------


## Richard Dellar

> Hi Richard,
> 
> Thank you so much for the info. I agree 1798 does seem to be a bit early as I have read in your book that "1798 -1801 [was] the first time that many western European armies had come in direct contact with such a sword". I'd just like to beg your patience a little longer to clarify a few things to make sure i am understanding things correctly. 
> 
> 1) In _Swords for Sea Service_ , Vol. 2, pg. 300, it lists Prosser, John, 1797-1853, below it says "Sword-Cutler . In 1799 Sword-Cutler to the King and Royal Family and in 1827 to the King and H.R.H. The Lord High Admiral. In 1854 he joined Tatham" also on page 109 of your book, I see a picture of a mameluke from c. 1807-10 etched "Prosser, Sword Cutler to the King, Charing Cross, London"
> 
> 2) the sword I have pictured above (perhaps my pictures are not very well taken, just with an iPhone) looks almost identical to the sword you have pictured on page 109 of your book i.e. same blade shape, same grip and quillons, except for 3 key things a) the grip is black- horn? instead of ivory b) the scabbard is completely different and c)it only says "Prosser, No. 9 Charing Cross, London as you have stated above for pre-1820 Prosser swords.
> 
> Thank you for your patience and understanding, I appreciate your wealth of knowledge.
> ...


Hello Matthew

The French went to Egypt in 1798 and remained there until 1801 when they were defeated by the British expedition under Sir Ralph Abercromby (although Napoleon himself had returned to France in late 1799). The French and British armies returned to Europe in 1801-02 and thus the first European-made mameluke sabres did not appear until a couple of years after that. The example illustrated below was made by Samuel Brunn c. 1805. I illustrate this because most of the really early examples I have seen have the leather covered wood scabbard with gilt mounts in imitation of the Turkish _kilic_  (i.e. the 'mameluke).

Now, returning to Prosser: John Prosser was in business from 1795 until his death in 1837 when the business succeeded to his son, also John Prosser. Prosser the son remained in business as a cutler until c. 1853 although I can't ever recall seeing any swords by Prosser the son. Prosser was appointed sword cutler to George III in 1795 and to George IV in 1820. Southwick (London Silver Hilted Swords, RA 2001) illustrates a trade card of Prosser from 1801 where he styles himself 'Sword Cutler to the King and Prince of Wales, Dukes of York and Cumberland'. However, as I said, the majority (therefore not all) of Prosser swords I have seen pre 1820 only have 'Prosser Charing Cross' on the blade. Of course, there are exceptions: the sword you mention on page 109 of my book and the one I mentioned previously where he styles himself Cutler to the Prince Regent. 

I agree that stylistically (grips excepted) your sword is similar to the one on page 109 and the example I illustrate below. However, the scabbard seems to me much later, certainly not in the period pre 1811. If we assume that between 1811 and 1820, Prosser was using 'sword cutler to the Prince Regent', then your sword must date to 1820 at the earliest. But that is based on assumption and I am as likely to be wrong as the next man.

Lastly, re the etching of the strung bugle and IX on the blade. I still think your best bet is 11th Native Light Infantry but that does need further research. Tying in the motto with regiment would obviously be conclusive. You probably need an expert on the Army of India like Gordon Byrne to help with this ...

Best of luck
Richard

----------


## L. Braden

> I have been looking for a US Marine mameluke 19th century with little success.  I have purchased m1841 militias in eagle heads and knight heads as they use the cross type guards also. I will expand my search to the early British mameluke as yours is stunning. I own no mamelukes but admire them. Thanks for all the info Matthew, Richard and L. Braden. What type wood is the grip and what language is"Aspera sperno"? Regards Eric


"Aspera sperno" is Latin.  It could even be loosely translated as "I smooth the rough spots"!
Best Regards.

----------


## Matthew Honey

Richard, thank you very much for all the info. So much learning to do...

Eric: Thanks. I'm not sure what type of wood it is or if it is horn (I've read that was used as well). This is actually a piece at the New Brunswick Museum. It's an "x" number meaning the museum has no info on it right down to who it came from or at what point in the museums history it arrived. We are trying to clear up as many of the "x" numbered swords as possible.... Fun, fun

----------


## gordon byrne

> Hello Matthew
> 
> The French went to Egypt in 1798 and remained there until 1801 when they were defeated by the British expedition under Sir Ralph Abercromby (although Napoleon himself had returned to France in late 1799). The French and British armies returned to Europe in 1801-02 and thus the first European-made mameluke sabres did not appear until a couple of years after that. The example illustrated below was made by Samuel Brunn c. 1805. I illustrate this because most of the really early examples I have seen have the leather covered wood scabbard with gilt mounts in imitation of the Turkish _kilic_  (i.e. the 'mameluke).
> 
> Now, returning to Prosser: John Prosser was in business from 1795 until his death in 1837 when the business succeeded to his son, also John Prosser. Prosser the son remained in business as a cutler until c. 1853 although I can't ever recall seeing any swords by Prosser the son. Prosser was appointed sword cutler to George III in 1795 and to George IV in 1820. Southwick (London Silver Hilted Swords, RA 2001) illustrates a trade card of Prosser from 1801 where he styles himself 'Sword Cutler to the King and Prince of Wales, Dukes of York and Cumberland'. However, as I said, the majority (therefore not all) of Prosser swords I have seen pre 1820 only have 'Prosser Charing Cross' on the blade. Of course, there are exceptions: the sword you mention on page 109 of my book and the one I mentioned previously where he styles himself Cutler to the Prince Regent. 
> 
> I agree that stylistically (grips excepted) your sword is similar to the one on page 109 and the example I illustrate below. However, the scabbard seems to me much later, certainly not in the period pre 1811. If we assume that between 1811 and 1820, Prosser was using 'sword cutler to the Prince Regent', then your sword must date to 1820 at the earliest. But that is based on assumption and I am as likely to be wrong as the next man.
> 
> Lastly, re the etching of the strung bugle and IX on the blade. I still think your best bet is 11th Native Light Infantry but that does need further research. Tying in the motto with regiment would obviously be conclusive. You probably need an expert on the Army of India like Gordon Byrne to help with this ...
> ...


Richard,

I certainly agree with your dating of the sword, as later swords sold under the Prosser name tend to lack the 9 Charing Cross address, simply stating "Prosser Manufacturer to the King", and maybe with the inclusion of "Prosser Invention London" in reference to the quill pointed blade.

Quite possibly an East India Company officers sword however, circa 1819 - 1825, there was the Eleventh Regiment Native Infantry - Bengal, the Eleventh Regiment Native Infantry - Madras, and the Eleventh Regiment Native Infantry - Bombay; none were styled Light Infantry. 

I couldn't trace the motto to an individual, and according to my history on the Madras units, there is no mention of that motto in relation to the 11th MNI.; without another clue, we maybe facing a brick wall. 

Prosser made Mameluke hilted swords for the Bombay Light Cavalry; these swords are marked Prosser Manufacturer to The King.

----------


## Richard Dellar

> Richard,
> 
> 
> Quite possibly an East India Company officers sword however, circa 1819 - 1825, there was the Eleventh Regiment Native Infantry - Bengal, the Eleventh Regiment Native Infantry - Madras, and the Eleventh Regiment Native Infantry - Bombay; none were styled Light Infantry.


Hello Gordon

The title '11th Native Light Infantry' comes from 'The Army of India Medal Roll 1799-1826' (J B Haywood & Son, 1974). This has always confused me a little because the native regiments listed are not split into Madras, Bengal, Bombay, etc. Anyway, the strung bugle and XI on the blade seemed a good fit but maybe I have put 2 and 2 together and made 5 ...

Below is a photo of the entry for the 11th Native LI in case anyone wants to go chasing mottoes ...

Richard

----------


## Matthew Honey

Thank you Richard and Gordon,

I haven't been able to find very much. In fact the only account of the two words Aspera sperno showing up together (according to multiple google searches) is in this book which I have taken a snapshot of. It may be an obituary? Could it possibly be a personal motto? I can't tell what language the book is in (Scandinavian)? It falls sort of in the time frame we are looking at if that is a death date in there of 1822 and a rank of major.

 not sure if this photo worked from my iPad... I may have to go to my computer...

----------


## Matthew Honey

. Here it is a little larger ... I hope

----------


## gordon byrne

> Hello Gordon
> 
> The title '11th Native Light Infantry' comes from 'The Army of India Medal Roll 1799-1826' (J B Haywood & Son, 1974). This has always confused me a little because the native regiments listed are not split into Madras, Bengal, Bombay, etc. Anyway, the strung bugle and XI on the blade seemed a good fit but maybe I have put 2 and 2 together and made 5 ...
> 
> Below is a photo of the entry for the 11th Native LI in case anyone wants to go chasing mottoes ...
> 
> Richard


Hi Richard,

I actually took the regimental titles from East-India Company Directories and Registers for 1819, 1821, 1823 and 1825; the titles did not include "Light".

Gordon

----------


## Richard Dellar

> Thank you Richard and Gordon,
> 
> I haven't been able to find very much. In fact the only account of the two words Aspera sperno showing up together (according to multiple google searches) is in this book which I have taken a snapshot of. It may be an obituary? Could it possibly be a personal motto? I can't tell what language the book is in (Scandinavian)? It falls sort of in the time frame we are looking at if that is a death date in there of 1822 and a rank of major.
> 
>  not sure if this photo worked from my iPad... I may have to go to my computer...


Matthew

The motto could be personal, i.e. a family motto, however family mottoes are usually accompanied at least by a family crest if not the individual's initials. In this case, given that it appears directly below the number XI, I would think it is a regimental motto.







> Hi Richard,
> 
>  I actually took the regimental titles from East-India Company Directories and Registers for 1819, 1821, 1823 and 1825; the titles did not include "Light".
> 
>  Gordon


Gordon

I have the 1823 Directory and a quick cross check reveals that two of the names in the medal list (Pereira and Newell) served with the 11th Madras Native Infantry.

Richard

----------


## gordon byrne

> Matthew
> 
> The motto could be personal, i.e. a family motto, however family mottoes are usually accompanied at least by a family crest if not the individual's initials. In this case, given that it appears directly below the number XI, I would think it is a regimental motto.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gordon
> ...


Hi Richard,

11th madras Infantry (McLean) - Raised as the 15th Battalion Coast Sepoys 1766 (from selected Nawah's Sepoys).

Became 11th Carnatic Battalion 1770.

2/9th M.N.I. 1796

11th M.I. 1885

71st Coorg Rifles 1903

Disbanded 1904

The motto is undoubtedly the clue however, I haven't found it mentioned in reference to the regiment a yet.

Gordon

PS. Reformed as 1st Coorg Battalion 1942

----------


## L. Braden

According to The Connoisseur, Vol. 105, 1940, "Aspera sperno" was/is the motto of the Gibbs or Gibbes family; but a quick search of army lists could find no connection with XI or 11th. Perhaps worth a more thorough search, however.

----------


## Matthew Honey

Thanks L. Braden, Richard & Gordon,

The only connection I have been able to find regarding Aspera Sperno, via various search engines (as I lack any books in this area) is with a Magnus Stenbock (1763-1822), a Swedish Count appointed Acting Martial of the Realm c.1810 and general in 1816 however, I can only find that connection in one place - in the clip from a google book posted above and have not been successful in finding it in another location to verify it. Nor have I been able to connect an XI regiment of any type to him. Plus it would beg the question, "did officers of the Swedish military use Mamelukes?", "did Prosser export blades?". Perhaps this option is a wild goose chase. 

Any more luck on the native infantry front? Or is this perhaps as far as the trail leads? It seems so close...

----------


## L. Braden

Maj. Gen. Sir Samuel Gibbs, K.C.B., was promoted to a lieutenancy in the 11th Foot in 1792, made captain and adjutant of the 11th in 1795 and major in 1799, and transferred to the 10th West India Regt. as lt. col. in 1802. Sources: The Royal Military Calendar (1815), The Aegis of England (1817), Dictionary of National Biography (1890).

----------


## L. Braden

P.S. According to The Connoisseur, the motto is on the arms of a gold seal (c. 1830-40) that belonged to Sir Samuel's brother, Lt. Gen. Sir Edward Gibbs. "The arms and crest are those of Gibbs; the motto is unrecorded. Beneath the arms, suspended by a ribbon, is a badge, apparently that of the Order of St. Louis." Sir Edward fought the French in the Peninsular War, so the badge was probably a war trophy. 
Anyway, the fact that Sir S. served in the 11th Foot may explain both the "XI" and "ASPERA SPERNO" on the sword.
Regarding time frame, what conclusive evidence is there, from Prosser himself, that no mamelukes were made until after 1802-03? Of course, Sir Samuel's could have been made later as a memento of his service in the 11th.

----------


## L. Braden

To be continued pending further research.

----------


## gordon byrne

I hadn't look in British Army however, I do have a Major Samuel Gibbs in the 11th Foot in my 1800 list "War Office, February 1800"- Rank in the Army, 5th August 1799.

Moving to 1803 - "War Office, 10th January 1803" - Samuel Gibbs was Lieutenant Colonel - 25th December, 1801 - Late 10 West India Regiment. "On English Half-Pay. 10th West India Regiment, (Maitland's) - Lieutenant Colonel Samuel Gibbs.

As far as I can make out, he transferred from the 10th to the 11th, achieved promotion to Lieut.-Colonel then went of Half-Pay.

----------


## L. Braden

According to the sources I cited, he transferred from the 11th to the 10th in 1802.
Ensign, 102nd Foot, 1783
Transferred to 60th Foot, 1788
Lt., 11th Foot, 1792
Capt. & Adjt., 11th Foot, 1795
Maj., 11th Foot, 1799
Lt. Col., 10th W.I. Regt., 1802
Lt. Col., 12th Battalion of Reserve, 1803
Lt. Col., 59th Foot, 1804
Bvt. Col., 59th Foot, 1810
Maj. Gen., 1813

----------


## L. Braden

Annual Register, 1802: "Major Samuel Gibbs, to be lieutenant-colonel of the 10th West India regiment."
All army lists, 1783-1814, confirm the dates and ranks in the above list.

----------


## gordon byrne

My 1785 List notes him as Ensign his date of rank *8th October* 1783 - "102d Regiment of Foot, Eaft Indies". I have nothing to add, reference material limited.

----------


## L. Braden

Thanks, Gordon, for adding confirmation of my list!
Additional evidence of his leaving the 11th for the 10th, from Cobbett's Annual Register, 1802: "11th Reg. Foot, Capt. Jas. Forster, from the 57th Foot, to be Maj. by purchase, vice Gibbs, promoted in the 10th West-India. ... 10th West-India Reg.  Maj. Sam. Gibbs, from the 11th Foot, to be Lieut. Col. by purchase."

----------


## L. Braden

Are we done?  :Confused:

----------


## Richard Dellar

> Are we done?


Well I imagine to the extent that Samuel Gibbs must be considered a possibility, however his dates of service seem a little early for the sword and the light infantry bugle remains unexplained?

----------


## L. Braden

The 102nd and 60th were light infantry; so if it was G's sword, the bugle would symbolize his service with them. Still no conclusive evidence, however, that such a sword could not have been made for him up until the time of his death at New Orleans in 1815.

----------


## L. Braden

More probable: Gibbs served in (as lieutenant) and subsequently commanded (as captain) the light company of the 11th. His previous experience with the 102nd and 60th would have qualified him for it.

----------


## L. Braden

PROOF, excerpted from A Collection of State Papers Relative to the War Against France, Vol. VIII, Appendix, p. 71, listing those British officers who were taken prisoner by the French: "11th flank companies, Captains, Knight, grenadiers; Gibbs, light infantry."
As far as I'm concerned, that explains the XI, the bugles, and the ASPERA SPERNO. However, will welcome a better explanation of, or solution to, this apparent mystery, if such is possible!

----------


## L. Braden

P.S. Gibbs was taken prisoner at Ostend in May of 1798 and exchanged at Christmas.
Incidentally, in 1809, Lt. Col. Gibbs led a squadron of dragoons and the light company of his 59th in action against the Mysoreans. (Proceedings of a General Court Martial, Held at Bangalore, 1835.)

----------


## Matthew Honey

Very impressive everyone! Thank you all very much. I'll take this information back to the curator next time I am scheduled at the museum (22nd I believe) and see if there is any history of the Gibbs family in Saint John, New Brunswick or if there are any other pieces possibly attributed to this family in the collection and this sword some how got left out or separated.

Thank you again and if anyone should have any other ideas that come to mind, I would be quite interested to hear.

I'll keep you posted on what I learn.

One other thought that just occurred, if Gibbs time with the 11th and the dating of this sword are not matching up, is it possible that this sword was presented to him by the 11th sometime after he had left them? Or would it most likely have a presentation inscription on it if that was the case?

----------


## L. Braden

Re dating: Colonel and subsequently Major General Arthur Wellesley (Wellington) reportedly carried a mameluke or mameluke-hilted sword while in India, 1797-1804, and it's known that his favourite (if not only) swordmaker was Prosser. Worth investigating. Not me, however. I've had enough!
Incidentally, mamelukes (like tulwars, shamshirs, etc.) were well known to European militaries long before Napoleon invaded Egypt. Le Marchant, for one, mentioned them in c. 1790. The only significant objection to them seemed to be the hilt, which was considered to be an insufficient guard; hence they were rarely used by the British as combat swords and were reserved for ceremonial use because (as the ladies said) they looked so "dainty and pretty", unlike the combat weapons. Hmmm.

----------


## J.G. Hopkins

> Hello Gordon
> 
> The title '11th Native Light Infantry' comes from 'The Army of India Medal Roll 1799-1826' (J B Haywood & Son, 1974). This has always confused me a little because the native regiments listed are not split into Madras, Bengal, Bombay, etc. Anyway, the strung bugle and XI on the blade seemed a good fit but maybe I have put 2 and 2 together and made 5 ...
> 
> Below is a photo of the entry for the 11th Native LI in case anyone wants to go chasing mottoes ...
> 
> Richard


The 11th Bengal Native Infantry had the battle honour "Bhurtpore", which would tally with the medal clasp for Captain Richard Benson in your scan for the 11th Native Light Infantry.

ADDED: Yes, just confirmed that Benson was with the 11th Bengal Native Infantry. https://books.google.com/books?id=2g...page&q&f=false

----------


## J.G. Hopkins

I have found the 11th Sylhet Local (Light) Infantry (1826 - 1861), a possible contender. Can't find a motto to connect it to Aspera Sperno.

ADDED: https://books.google.com/books?id=7C...try%22&f=false

----------


## Richard Dellar

> Re dating: Colonel and subsequently Major General Arthur Wellesley (Wellington) reportedly carried a mameluke or mameluke-hilted sword while in India, 1797-1804, and it's known that his favourite (if not only) swordmaker was Prosser. Worth investigating. Not me, however. I've had enough!
> Incidentally, mamelukes (like tulwars, shamshirs, etc.) were well known to European militaries long before Napoleon invaded Egypt. Le Marchant, for one, mentioned them in c. 1790. The only significant objection to them seemed to be the hilt, which was considered to be an insufficient guard; hence they were rarely used by the British as combat swords and were reserved for ceremonial use because (as the ladies said) they looked so "dainty and pretty", unlike the combat weapons. Hmmm.


Yes, bad wording on my part in one of the posts above. I didn't mean that mameluke sabres were unknown in Europe before 1802-03, just that is when they became the height of fashion and general production really started in earnest. In fact, there is a very early mameluke sabre by the cutler Robert Foster (d. 1795) in the Royal Collection at Windsor Castle, Laking No. 907 described it thus '_A sabre of Prussian pattern but of English workmanship, last years of the 18th century, the grip and pommel are of one piece and overlaid on either side with plaques of ivory secured by two rosette-headed rivets ; in the pommel there is a hole through which passed the sword knot. The quillons and scabbard mounts are of gilt copper, the former of Oriental fashion, ending in knots of square shaped section and embossed and chased in the cente with trophies of arms. The blade is 31½ in. long, its whole surface being watered in mock Oriental fashion and furthermore enriched by a sham Oriental inscription in gold. The scabbard is covered with black leather with three mounts and two rings for suspension. The locket is inscribed FOSTER &c &c_  Also, of course, the 'oriental scimitars carried by mamelukes and Turks' was one of Le Marchant's inspirations for the 1796 light cavalry sabre. 

Also, I may well have been wrong when I said the majority of pre-1820 Prosser swords are just marked Prosser Charing Cross. Not less than 3 feet away from me is a Prosser sword dated 1800 that is marked 'Sword Cutler to the King and his Royal Highness the Duke of York'. So some Prosser swords refer to the King and others do not - I cannot really say which is in the majority.

However, returning to the sword in question, the case for it belonging to Sir Samuel Gibbs seems quite compelling in terms of his connection with the light company of the 11th Foot and the motto Aspera Sperno. However, the characteristics of the sword do appear to be significantly later than the dates of his service, particularly the all metal scabbard (the wood or horn grips are also a bit of a mystery). As you say, possibly a memento of his time with the 11th Foot? possibly if he became a staff officer later in his career? However, I still do not believe we can totally discount some other option - such as an officer in a Native Infantry regiment in India. If it did belong to Gibbs, what a pity he didn't also put his family crest on the blade with the motto.

----------


## L. Braden

Thanks indeed for your informative post!
Gibbs was twice a staff officer: in 1793 and again in 1796 he was a.d.c. to Lt. Gen. James Grant.
For all we know, the sword was given by the 11th to Sir Edward Gibbs in memoriam after the death of his brother in 1815.
Anyway, any positive identification must include the motto as well as the other aspects; otherwise, it's mere speculation ad infinitum.

----------


## Richard Schenk

> Thanks L. Braden, Richard & Gordon,
> 
>  it would beg the question, "did officers of the Swedish military use Mamelukes?", "did Prosser export blades?". Perhaps this option is a wild goose chase. 
> 
> Any more luck on the native infantry front? Or is this perhaps as far as the trail leads? It seems so close...


As to the question of whether Prosser exported blades, the USMC museum in Quantico. Virginia has a M1826 mameluke sword formerly owned by Marine Corps Colonel Commandant John Harris which is marked on one side "Prosser/Manufacturer/to/the/King/Charing Cross" and on the other "Prosser/Manufacture/to/the/King/London".  This sword pre-dates 1859 when the USMC replaced the M1826 Mameluke with the Army M1850 Foot Officers sword.  Prosser may have been the British company from which the USMC procured the initial lot of mameluke swords distributed to all marine officers in 1826, but that has not been established.  See article "Acquisitions" from the Summer 1993 edition of "Fortitudine", the museum's journal which is available on line.

----------


## L. Braden

Thanks for that info! I never doubted that Prosser et al. exported blades. What businessman in his right mind would have refused an order? However, I wonder what the import-export regulations were in those days regarding weapons.
Addenda: "The advantage of a protective hilt is sacrificed in the Mameluke sabres." (Col. Marey, Memoir on Swords, 1860.)
Robson, for one, noted that Wellington "as a result of his Indian service, habitually wore a mameluke-hilted scimitar long before such a pattern became the regulation." Perhaps that's why so few pre-regulation mamelukes are seen today - they were scarce until W. popularized them and made them regulation.

----------


## J.G. Hopkins

L. Braden,
Do you have access to the entire _The Connoisseur_ or just the Google Books preview? I don't have full access, but when I search for Gibbs, Google's search preview states, "ARMS ON GOLD SEAL— PUTNEY THE arms read — azure, three pole-axes argent garnished or, within a bordure or. ... The seal itself must date about 1830-1840, so the original owner cannot have been Major-General Sir Samuel Gibbs,  ..."

and

"M. Aspera sperno. Beneath the arms suspended by a ribbon is ... The seal itself must date about 1830-1840, so the original owner cannot have been Major-General Sir Samuel Gibbs, K.C.B., who died in 1815. I imagine him to have been Lieut."

Jonathan

----------


## J.G. Hopkins

While we are throwing out ideas, what if the 11th Light Infantry is not British or Indian? What if it refers to the 11th Caçadores (Portuguese light infantry)? They had a British commander (at least one source states he was German, others say he was a major in the British Army--could be both), Thomas Dursbach (sometimes spelled Dursback).

----------


## J.G. Hopkins

It appears that Thomas Francis Dursbach was KIA at Badajoz:

https://books.google.com/books?id=Lo...adajoz&f=false

A bit more on the 11th Caçadores: http://www.arqnet.pt/exercito/11bc.html

Another British Officer in command of the 11th was KIA:

Captain Charles Kilshaw - 77th Foot - killed at Orthes - 27th February 1814. 
Serving as Lieutenant-Colonel with the 11th Cacadores.

----------


## Richard Dellar

> Thanks for that info! I never doubted that Prosser et al. exported blades. What businessman in his right mind would have refused an order? However, I wonder what the import-export regulations were in those days regarding weapons.
> Addenda: "The advantage of a protective hilt is sacrificed in the Mameluke sabres." (Col. Marey, Memoir on Swords, 1860.)
> Robson, for one, noted that Wellington "as a result of his Indian service, habitually wore a mameluke-hilted scimitar long before such a pattern became the regulation." Perhaps that's why so few pre-regulation mamelukes are seen today - they were scarce until W. popularized them and made them regulation.


The 'mameluke' didn't become an official 'regulation' sword until the Dress Regulations of 1822 when it was prescribed for officers of the 9th, 12th and 16th Lancers (with metal scabbard for dress wear and a velvet covered scabbard for full dress). However, prior to that, from c. 1802-03, it had become standard wear for virtually every fashionable light cavalry officer (and many other non-cavalry officers). By c. 1810, various regimental variations were appearing, the example below made by Prosser in 1818 for an officer of the 3rd Light Dragoons. Miller & Dawney (Military Drawings and Paintings in the Royal Collection, Phaidon London 1966) show many examples from the period 1802-1822. When officially recognised in 1822, it must have been a case of 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'. I don't doubt however that Wellington must have been a strong influence in this practice. 

Comparison of the example below which is dated 1818 and the example I posted above clearly shows how, with time, the mameluke became 'Europeanised' moving further and further away from the original style of the Turkish _kilic._

PS, it is also interesting that Laking describes the early mamelukes in the Royal Collection as being 'of Prussian style'. Clearly it would seem that the Prussians (and probably other East European countries) adopted the mameluke in some form earlier than it appeared in Britian. This is not particularly surprising as it is evident from the eastern so-called 'mystical' symbols on imported German blades of the late 18th century that the Prussians were fascinated by all things oriental.

----------


## Richard Dellar

> While we are throwing out ideas, what if the 11th Light Infantry is not British or Indian? What if it refers to the 11th Caçadores (Portuguese light infantry)? They had a British commander (at least one source states he was German, others say he was a major in the British Army--could be both), Thomas Dursbach (sometimes spelled Dursback).


Jonathan

Yes, it was the habit of many British officers in the army of Portugal to carry British-made and British pattern swords ...

Richard

----------


## L. Braden

> L. Braden,
> Do you have access to the entire _The Connoisseur_ or just the Google Books preview? I don't have full access, but when I search for Gibbs, Google's search preview states, "ARMS ON GOLD SEAL— PUTNEY THE arms read — azure, three pole-axes argent garnished or, within a bordure or. ... The seal itself must date about 1830-1840, so the original owner cannot have been Major-General Sir Samuel Gibbs,  ..."
> 
> and
> 
> "M. Aspera sperno. Beneath the arms suspended by a ribbon is ... The seal itself must date about 1830-1840, so the original owner cannot have been Major-General Sir Samuel Gibbs, K.C.B., who died in 1815. I imagine him to have been Lieut."
> 
> Jonathan


"ARMS ON GOLD SEAL -- PUTNEY. The arms read -- azure, three pole-axes argent garnished or, within a bordure or. C. an arm in armour embowed proper the hand grasping a pole-axe argent in pale. M. Aspera sperno. Beneath the arms suspended by a ribbon is a badge, apparently that of the Order of St. Louis. The arms and crest are those of Gibbs or Gibbes; the motto is unrecorded. The seal itself must date about 1830-1840, so the original owner cannot have been Major-General Sir Samuel Gibbs, K.C.B., who died in 1815. I imagine him to have been Lieut.-General Sir Edward Gibbs, K.C.B., d. 1847, Governor of Jersey from 1838 to 1847."
C.: Crest. M.: Motto. Putney was in business c. 1830-40. Regimental mottoes were generally recorded, but family mottoes not so, which is why you won't find it in any official or unofficial book of mottoes, heraldry, etc.
I like your Portuguese connection! But what of the motto?
Regards!

----------


## L. Braden

Except for the hilt, Col. Marey considered the Mameluke sabre "perfection; it is impossible to imagine any improvement in it; as a cutting weapon, it is a chef d'oeuvre. ... The Mameluke sabre is perfect for cutting." He thought it better than any European sabre. But what he didn't observe is that (like other Oriental swords) it was designed exclusively for offensive use, which is why it was (or was supposed to be) used with a shield. All swords were originally meant for offensive use only; but when Europeans abandoned their shields (even the handy targes/targets or bucklers), they converted their swords into both offensive and defensive weapons, thereby exposing them to potential damage or breakage and themselves to injury or even death. Which is why some smart officers armed themselves with stout sticks to accompany their swords as defensive weapons. So, in the Western world, the mameluke was generally relegated to being a mere dress sword. Stupid or what?!

----------


## Matt Easton

Marey's particular favour for the mamluk sabre was based on the handle specifically - a thin flat grip near the guard for good edge-alignment and the flat wide portion near the pommel for the little finger. Actually European/American-made mamluk style sabres tend not to replicate that very well, as they usually have handles of uniform width all the way down. Real North African/Middle Eastern shamshir or Turkish kilic have very broad flat surfaces for the little finger to lever against, which is what Marey was particularly enamoured of. The Turkish yataghan has a similar feature in this regard and Marey thought that the best kind of sword for infantry. Marey doesn't talk about them, but actually a type of sword which marries what he admired in the Mamluk/kilic handle and a more protective hand guard would be the various forms of Polish karabela. It's a little curious that he doesn't write about them, given that they were known of in France thanks to the Polish lancers and some French swords which copied the style.

----------


## L. Braden

Yo, Matt!
To the Mameluke, there was no "advantage" to having a "protective hilt", because he defended himself with his shield, which Marey does not mention.
Regards!

----------


## L. Braden

P.S. Marey: "The hilt has no guard so as to be light. ... Lightness is one of the qualities of all swords known for their powers of cutting well. To this end the advantage of a protective hilt is sacrificed in the Mameluke sabres." As said, no "advantage" to one using a sword for offense only and a shield for defense! Not the case, of course, with sabres used both for offense and defense.

----------


## L. Braden

P.P.S. Marey again: "Swords intended for both thrusting and cutting appear to require a defensive hilt." Ditto swords intended for both guarding and parrying, but I'm not sure if he mentioned this and really don't care.

----------


## Matt Easton

From a post-medieval European mindset swords used either with or without shields or bucklers required more protective hilts - we see this with broadswords/backswords/sideswords/rapiers used with shields and bucklers. However for most of history swords across the world didn't have complex hilts - the medieval Europeans and other cultures from all periods had used their swords defensively with simple cross-hilts or no guard at all for thousands of years. There are Mamluk treatises from the 14th and 15th centuries showing the use of swords in offence and defence, both with and without shields - the same for Indian and Persian treatises and of course medieval European treatises using longswords, langesmessers etc. To emphasise: swords with simple guards or no guards were used defensively by themselves throughout history, including in the Mamluk lands, as well as India and the Middle East. Marey was a 19th century French officer - he knew nothing of Mamluk fencing in earlier centuries, only what he observed by relatively untrained 19th century enemies  :Smilie:

----------


## L. Braden

> P.P.S. Marey again: "Swords intended for both thrusting and cutting appear to require a defensive hilt." Ditto swords intended for both guarding and parrying, but I'm not sure if he mentioned this and really don't care.


No, he didn't mention it. But no matter, because he didn't mention other significant things as well. Another theorist with no practical knowledge or experience???

----------


## L. Braden

Ample evidence proves that mamelukes, tulwars, shamshirs, kilijs, etc. used for defense (i.e., in guarding or parrying) tended to break, specifically because they were light and brittle. Besides, they weren't designed to be used this way. They were designed and tended only for cutting - and, only if you dared, for thrusting. I can't speak for pre-modern European swords and usage.

----------


## Max C.

Not sure about that shield theory either. Longswords, katanas and other two handed swords for a long time had little hand protection and were surely not to be used with a shield. I think that Ivanowski has a great point in his 1824 manual (he was a Polish cavalry man under Napoleon) he says that basically a bigger guard alters the balance of your blade, making it less useful when cutting, unless you modify the blade as well. I think that this is one of the reasons why Europeans regarded swords with minimalist guards as great cutters, while most European military swordsmiths were trying to come up with this perfect sword that would cut, thrust and protect your hand all at the same time.

----------


## L. Braden

Matthew:
As for Count Magnus Capricorn Stenbock (1763-1822), whose motto was "Aspera Sperno", he was a general, knight, and courtier - previously a cavalry and light-infantry officer - but I can find no connection to "XI" except that his illustrious ancestor, Count Magnus Gustafsson Stenbock (1664-1717) began his military career under Karl XI of Sweden. Not very convincing, I know. Ironic that "Aspera sperno" means "I remove difficulties"!

----------


## L. Braden

If certain Asian swords were not designed and meant to be used with shields, then why were shields generally used at all; and why did irregulars in the Indian Army, for example, continue to use shields when the regulars did not? Because the regulars were not armed with tulwars!

----------


## L. Braden

P.S. The Indian regulars of the pre-Mutiny period generally hated their regulation swords - they felt unprotected, lost confidence - which is why many of them, as Capt. Nolan and others observed, performed poorly and were virtually worthless. Many of them, subsequently, became lancers, which restored their confidence. Hodson, for one, wasn't foolish enough to forbid the use of shields in his irregular regiment; and he armed those who didn't have tulwars with the nearest equivalent: the 1796 light-cavalry sabre, which was replaced in 1821 by the cut-and-thrust sword that the regulars detested.
Col. Charles Stuart of the Bengal Army advocated the use of shields by the regulars, but his recommendation fell on the deaf ears of higher authority.

----------


## L. Braden

> Not sure about that shield theory either. Longswords, katanas and other two handed swords for a long time had little hand protection and were surely not to be used with a shield. I think that Ivanowski has a great point in his 1824 manual (he was a Polish cavalry man under Napoleon) he says that basically a bigger guard alters the balance of your blade, making it less useful when cutting, unless you modify the blade as well. I think that this is one of the reasons why Europeans regarded swords with minimalist guards as great cutters, while most European military swordsmiths were trying to come up with this perfect sword that would cut, thrust and protect your hand all at the same time.


We're not talking about heavy two-handed swords or any other swords capable of withstanding constant clashing with other blades, although the Scottish Highlanders were smart enough to protect their broadswords by using targes/targets. Otherwise, I agree with you.

----------


## L. Braden

I've finally had enough of this never-ending research, so am leaving this forum and the Internet altogether.
Anyway, good luck with the identification! You'll need it.

----------


## L. Braden

Am back again, but only because of a brainstorm.
XI may not represent 11th at all, but the monogram for "Christ Jesus", which was often reversed as IX. That would explain the peculiar motto, and mottoes were rarely in the first person. Stenbock was a knight of the Royal Order of the Seraphim, the monogram of which was IHS (Jesus), a common variant of IX/XI. He was evidently a religious person, one of the "haters of flair and simple in habits" (hatare af flard och enkel i vanor), never wore his medals, and died unmarried. 
Anyway, if he isn't our man, the only additional explanation I can give in favour of Gibbs is that the sword was presented to him on the tenth anniversary of his service with the 11th, his promotion to lt. col., and his subsequent departure from the 11th.

----------


## Matt Easton

Intriguing! I have nothing to offer in this Holmes-esque mystery, but it's fascinating reading!

----------


## L. Braden

More on Stenbock:
In the mini-biog: "Han forde till valsprak: Aspera Sperno" (He brought to the motto: Aspera Sperno). What does that mean? Perhaps could also be translated as "He kept to the motto". So the motto could be attributive, for some difficult service he rendered, rather than the words of JC to accompany the XI. After the assassination of the Marshal of the Realm in 1810, he served as acting marshal until a regular could be appointed, and was subsequently promoted to general. A sword presented in appreciation? As for the bugles, who knows? Evidently, he was only a cavalry officer - one of his regiments was converted to light infantry long after he left - and none of his units was numbered XI.
(To be cont'd.)

----------


## L. Braden

As for Gibbs, the arms and crest on the seal are indeed those of the Gibbs family; but their motto has traditionally been "Tenax propositi" (Tenacious of purpose) - although, as noted by their historians, not all branches used this motto and any deviations are unrecorded. Perhaps the motto is attributive also. "Captain Gibbs, of the 11th, and Captain Halkett, of the 23d Light Infantry, eminently distinguished themselves by their cool, intrepid conduct during the whole time." (Maj. Gen. Harry Burrard, Ostend, May 20, 1798. Annual Register for 1798.) No telling where The Connoisseur got his info re the seal in his Heraldic Notes.

----------


## L. Braden

P.S. Even more puzzling is the apparent badge of the Order of St. Louis. Who did it originally belong to, and how was it acquired? According to the list of recipients, which may or may not be complete, no Gibbs received such a decoration; and the few Britons who did do not fit in this case. Anyway, to me, Gibbs seems more likely than Stenbock; BUT, for anyone with the patience to do so, I recommend that a search be made for some officer in some 11th who performed a service or services that would warrant the motto of "I remove difficulties" or "I scorn adversities", etc.

----------


## Matthew Honey

Okay, to rehash this with another new possibility. I thought I would put this out there and see if it makes sense or not.

I stumbled upon a listing in John Wilkinson Latham's book "British Military Swords" on page 75 (Appendix IV) _Some Variations to Regulation Patterns 1900-25_. Half way down it lists the 11th Bengal Lancers "Light Cavalry sword, 1822 pattern and a dress scimitar with a Generals blade, a tulwah crossguard and black horn grip" - very much like the one present here. I realize this regulation pattern listing is quite a bit later from this swords age range, but could this regulation have been the case back in the early 1800's? 

This would support Richard and Gordon's earlier theories about a connection to the Bengal Cavalry.

The other discovery I have made (while researching something else and yet frustratingly, have been unable to complete the circle) is that after the American Revolution, Benedict Arnold lived in Saint John, New Brunswick for several years. Several of his sons were involved with the Bengal Cavalry. One in particular (George Arnold) was even born in Saint John, New Brunswick. George Arnold went on to become a Lieutenant-Colonel in the Bengal Cavalry. He died November 1, 1828 while on active duty. That time frame would also tend to match up with Richard's estimate to the dating of the sword.

Now the frustrating part. 

From what I have been able to find online, he was connected to the 2nd Bengal cavalry and one of his other brothers, Edward Arnold (1780 - 1831) was the paymaster connected to the 6th Bengal Cavalry. Is there a possibility out there that either may have had a connection to the 11th?

The other question is "how did it end up back in Canada IF it did belong to one of them?" His parents had passed away in England Father 1801 and mother 1804. Yet he still had brothers, some of which were still in Canada(ie. James Arnold rose to Commanding officer of Engineers in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick as of 1823 and Richard Arnold settled in Canada after leaving the British Army). Could his belongings have been shipped here? To his next of kin?

One other item, and i realize this may be going out on a limb, is the motto "Aspera Sperno". While I have been unable to find any connection of it to the "Arnold" name, is it possible that (with L. Braden's translation to "I despise difficulties; I scorn hardships"), this could have been a personal motto? From the digging I have done, the Arnold's had left Canada (to sail back to England) because of constant suspicion both following the Revolutionary war and due to some incidents that happened while living in Saint John. Could these perceptions have followed him as he strove to move up the ranks? 

I thought I would share these new discoveries and see if anything else came to light, or if I am merely trying to get water from a stone...

Matt

----------


## Matt Easton

Just happened across this - maybe of interest: https://uk.pinterest.com/pin/158118636889113103/

----------


## Matt Easton

And here is Colonel Probyn in the 11th Bengal Lancers uniform:
https://uk.pinterest.com/pin/158118636888587226/

----------


## Matt Easton

Here is the 11th Bengal Lancers Mameluke dress sword in around 1890: 


http://britishempire.co.uk/forces/ar...11thbl1890.htm

----------


## Will Mathieson

The other question is "how did it end up back in Canada IF it did belong to one of them?" His parents had passed away in England Father 1801 and mother 1804. Yet he still had brothers, some of which were still in Canada(ie. James Arnold rose to Commanding officer of Engineers in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick as of 1823 and Richard Arnold settled in Canada after leaving the British Army). Could his belongings have been shipped here? To his next of kin?"

Absolutely could be the case. I have a 1846 made sword that was willed to his cousin in Canada on the east coast. The first things he mentions in his will are his medals and swords. They were important items to them at the time.

----------


## Matthew Honey

Hmmm... Very interesting. One of the things I read (if I am understanding it right) is that the 11th Bengal Cavalry did not exist until 1861. It was created out of the First Sihk Irregular Cavalry.

----------


## Matthew Honey

Will, does he include a description of any other swords in that will?

----------

