# Communities > Modern-era Swords and Collecting Community > Modern Production Katanas >  what is difference btw PC, LL, Cold Steel, Bugei etc?

## Jon Heimerl

For a beginner, or for someone who basically wants to know  I have compiled this post from other postings in this forum, other forums, and conversations and email exchanges with other people.  For the most part, I have included my impressions from the information I read.  If I include a comment as someone elses impression, I made sure that at least three people provided the same comment  no unsubstantiated comments are in here, unless they are my own opinion.  Where the opinions are my own, I will state so clearly.  I have just gone through this process, and would have found a post like this invaluable.

The basic question is, what is a good katana?  I expand on this question in this posting to include some information about how does a PK compare to a Cold Steel, compare to a Last Legend, compare to a PC Tiger or Blue Orchid, compare to a Bugei et al  weve all seen these questions.  I cant answer all of these questions in detail, but hopefully I can provide enough information that other people with similar questions can get some answers here.  To help explain the differences, it would be imperative to understand the terminology of the katana. Since someone considering a first sword probably doesnt know all these words, I will try to explain English usage as well.

The answer is NOT simple.  It depends mostly on a combination of usage and cost.  I have grouped blades by overall cost and relative quality, though your specific wishes for the blade may require you to adjust my quality ratings, I suspect that most people will agree - overall.  If someone disagrees (or agrees), please post a follow-up!  In a couple places, I do post comments about the feel for the blade  Feel is important, and completely subjective.  If you find a blade, but cant fit it in the price range I list below, you have not looked hard enough.  Prices listed are current as of 9/14/2004

$140-250.  The Paul Chen Practical line should be considered entry-level blades. The Practical has some plastic components and the handle covering is glued on.  It should probably be considered functional but not durable.  The Practical Plus has higher quality and more traditional fittings (koshirae) than the Practical.  Both are made from high carbon steel and are differentially tempered, with a prominent temper line (hamon).    The Practical Pro (sometimes called the Fantasy) is a heavier blade, and has a longer handle (Tsuka), and also has a more finished polish on the blade.  The Pro handle wrap (Tsuka-ito) is ray skin (same) and synthetic leather.  Some people have posted that the leather loosens with even limited cutting.  I have not seen or handled a Pro, but feedback I have read seems to be that the Pro is heavier and not balanced as well as the Practical Plus blades.  The Pro may have been developed to compete with some of the other heavy blades from Cold Steel and Last Legend  to serve as a more durable cutting sword.  Most reviewers I have seen recommend the Plus over the Pro.  In most writeups, the Practical Plus Katana is abbreviated as the PPK.
The PC Tokugawa also falls in this price/quality range.  Fittings are mostly traditional, with a leather tsuka-ito. Several writeups listed it as superior to the PPK.   Most reviews indicate this to be a good sword for the money.

I found several comments that point to Kris Cutlery Katana, but was unable to find anything that looked like a reasonable weapon.

$260 Last Legend 200 series.  Mark I (about $260) is 1050 tempered (through hardened) steel.
This is actually a functional blade.  If you care less about overall appearances and authenticity, these blades are good options, especially if you will be using them to build and improve skills before buying a more advanced (and pricey) katana.  The Mark 1 has no hamon, and is not as highly polished as other blades.

$360-730 The Last Legend 200 Mark II and Mark IV (about $360) and the Last Legend 300 series Tsunami (about $480) are differentially forged clay tempered 1090 steel.  The Tsunami also comes in a Folded version (for about $730), which uses layers or 1050 and 1090 steel that are folded to get 4096 layers (so 11 times).

In general, Last Legend blades have more of a steel appearance  they definitely look more metal.  Tempering lines are usually clear, but sometimes not so easy to see.  The blades are generally not as polished as some others.  The blades themselves have a pronounced curve (mostly, if not all, a 1 inch sori).  The blades do not taper, and are big  meaning the distance from cutting edge (Hasaki) to the back of the blade (Mune) is large  consistently larger than any other sword listed here.  Fittings are reasonably authentic, and done quite competently, but should not be considered high quality.  Competitive blades in this price range will probably look better.  But  these things cut like laser beams.  That is the real trade-off point for a Last Legend  if you care less about looks, and want a pure cutter, the Last Legend Tsunami is your sweet spot.  If the looks of your blade and scabbard (saya) are at least as important, keep looking down the list.

Cold Steel Katana run in the $320-550 price range.  The only difference between the Imperial and the Warrior lines is the level of polish on the blades.  The Imperial is more highly polished, leaving an almost mirror-like finish on the blade.  All blades have bo-hi.  All blades are made of 1050 high carbon steel, and are through hardened.  Fittings are traditional, and of reasonable, but unremarkable quality.  The blades are quite straight, with a shallow curve (sori).   Overall, the Cold Steel katana are attractive blades, but without hamon or any temper markings.  I have held a Warrior Katana, and I have to say I found the overall look of the katana quite striking.  I also thought the balance left the blade just a little tip heavy  though not unbalanced.  However, I also found it too surgical in appearance and feel  I would say it had no soul.  Based on reviews I have read, the impressions seems to be that the blades are quite durable, and are truly functional blades, but probably do not compare well if considering the attractiveness of the fittings and overall appearance of the sword.

Paul Chen Katana at $450-550.  Moving up in the Paul Chen line, you will get a series of forged blades that all have pronounced hamon  all are differentially forged, and are clay tempered.  In general, these blades all have quality fittings, including buffalo horn and brass, and are professionally done swords with some genuine style in the fittings. Overall, these katana are likely to be good value for the money if your primary interest is aesthetics, with only two of the group being known as quality cutters.  This includes the following models, all of which are comparable in overall quality:
Miyamoto Musashi - The Musashi has a longer blade, and a more pronounced curve (sori) than most, tsuka-ito is leather  this was designed to look like Miyamoto Musashis Daito.  I thought the Musashi had good balance, and just felt right in my hand, though I thought the sori was a little too pronounced for my own taste.
The Golden Oriole  a 14 inch Tsuka changes the balance and handling of the blade  most of these blades have a handle closer to 11 inches
Paul Chen Tsunami  designed to be a cutting sword, the blade is a little heavier and thicker
Thunder and Lightening  another blade that is built to withstanding more rigorous cutting, this blade is clearly thicker than many other blades
Shinto  Improved fittings  probably moreso than the other second tier forged blades

$870? The 400 series Last Legend blades are essentially similar to the 300 series folded Tsunami, but they get one more fold, resulting in 8096 layers.  Everything else above about the blade applies.  Tsuba are highly textured and patterned, and saya are engraved.  I was actually quite impressed with their overall appearance (with the exception of the blade polish). 

Katana at $650-1000. Paul Chen folded blades are generally folded 5-9 times (depending on the source Ive seen, including a quote that Paul Chen said he does NOT fold a blade more than 5 times).  Looking at basic math, with 2 pieces of steel, 5 folds yields 64 layers and 9 folds yields 1024 layers.  This does enhance the appearance of the hamon.  There is great debate on this forum and elsewhere about how much strength this adds to the blade, or if it is all aesthetics.  The reality is that folding can add strength if done correctly, and with different hardnesses of steel (folding steels with two different hardness can yield the characteristics of both steels  folding the same steel does not serve any practical function).  These swords are all quality blades with fittings that are designed to be more authentic.  Fittings tend to be real metal, bone, or horn, knots and ties tend to be very authentic.  These are all quality weapons made of Swiss ASSAB-K120C powder steel, and are highly polished, and acid washed to enhance the Hamon.  Hamon enhanced with an acid wash can diminish with use and heavy cleaning.
Bushido - 
Blue Orchid  slightly more tapered, lighter blade, deep blue sheath (saya).  The tsuka is slightly tapered, and somewhat smaller around than most.  This blade had a wonderful feel in my hand, and perfect balance, though the handle was a bit small.  It felt like an extension of my arm, and moved with great ease.
Folded Tiger  pronounced groove (bo-hi) on both sides of the blade
Kami  Tsuka-ito is Japanese silk instead of cotton, bright red Saya, blades are engraved

Other Katana at $800-1200.
Bugei blades  Dragonfly, Crane, Samurai, and the Shobu Zukuri all sit at about $1000.  Bamboo prices at about $1300.  The Wave prices at around $1600.  Options for blade and handle length are easy.  Some have bo-hi options that cost an additional $200.  These blades are all differentially hand forged and folded Swiss ASSAB-K120C powder steel.  Many places state that all Bugei blades are made by Hanwei, but I did not verify this on the Bugei site.  The swords are flawless examples of the art of swordmaking in this price range.  The blades are beautiful, with pronounced hamon, and a smooth curve.  Fittings are impeccable, high quality, and solid.  Though I have not cut with them, I get the impression that they are excellent cutters, though perhaps not to the level of the Last Legend blades.

$1500  Liveblade  Cicada Forge.  I do not have great details, and have not seen one.  BUT, I found several comments that insisted the blades and fixtures are of excellent quality.

Dguertin  dont know much about the forge, but several comments pointed to him as providing quality swords with quality fixtures.

$2000 or so  Swordstore  I have read that these people also make high quality swords, but have not seen a sword, or any great details about the quality of the blade or fixtures.

$3000 and up  there are places available  look around  that build custom blades, or take pre-built blades and custom finish and mount them.  These blades can run $3000 and up.  With little effort, you can find sites that list Japanese Shinken for $30,000 or more for a mounted blade.

So, bottom line, consider your requirements  what are you going to do with your katana?  If you are only doing forms, consider an unsharpened blade to help avoid finger loss.  If you want to cut only, and dont care about appearance, run to the Last Legend 300 series.  If appearance is as important, or moreso, check your price range, start with Paul Chen folded, then look at Bugei, Liveblade, et al  If you are taking lessons, ask your sensei before buying.  And, when appropriate, buy with your heart as well, since how the katana feels for you is critical.

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## J. Pitts

Slight correction, D Guertin is not a sword maker. His line comes out of China like most production swords. There seems to be a large variety of blades offered in models shown on his site.

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## bryce c

this has sticky potential I believe

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## Jon Heimerl

I had deliberately used "swordmaker" instead of forge or bladesmith - but this is probably not clear enough. 

I edited the original post to make it more clear.

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## John V.

> _Originally posted by bryce c_ 
> *this has sticky potential I believe*


I concur with this 

this first post has so much information in it it should be made sticky for everyone to always have easy access to, and maybe have it be a "living" thread where new info and what not could always be updated in it

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## Daniel Bespalko

For a quick read this is from the link http://www.nootrope.net/firstsword.html 
*******The below info was written by and posted on the web by Dimytri Komanatov it is only "HIS" opinion.********

Because the same questions are continually asked, I offer the following comparative review of the Bugei Exclusive line-up, as well as the Hanwei Japanese-styled swords offered by a variety of sources. Let me say up front that what follows consists entirely of my own opinions and observations. Other opinions may (and will) vary. What is offered here is offered as a sort of buyers Guide to the Bugei line. I do hope it helps, but I am equally sure it will lead to more questions. Please ask them, and I will endeavor to follow up on them quickly. 

I think it goes without saying that any of the Bugei custom swords (Howard Clark L6, Howard Clark Forge Folded, and Howard Clark 1086) will out perform the Bugei/Chen collaborative offerings and are well worth it, even if they do incur a substantial financial investment. For this reason, I wont bother with them. 

Non-Bugei, Hanwei Japanese-styled Production Swords 

Because they always come up in a comparative analysis, I will start by discussing the Non-Bugei Hanwei offerings, of which there are four divisions: 

The Non-Bugei, Hanwei High End (Kami, Tiger, Bushido, Orchid) are good, but lack most of the quality control that goes into the Bugei line. Granted, as Bugei and Hanwei continue their collaboration, the constant advances and quality enhancements that go into the Bugei swords find their way into the production blades as well, but while the improvements are intentional and well-applauded, they occur as a slow, trickling effect. Also, the standard line experience a more rushed manufacture process, and as such can not possibly implement the extremely tight and rigid quality control Bugei swords experience. While they are decent cutters for beginning practitioners on a budget, realistically, the low-priced Bugei swords are not all that more expensive, and are much more where performance and quality are concerned. Of these, the Tiger would seem the most logical cutter of the lot, while the Bushido would come in a close second, and the Orchid makes for a very nice iai katana. The Kami ... well, its nice, but I dont know that I would want to bring it to the Dojo for any serious sword work. It seems to me that there is more flash than substance. It is supposed to be a fine sword as it is, but for me, there just seems to be too much excessive visual activity to be taken seriously. However, I must reiterate that for not much more money, a far superior sword is had in even the least of the Bugei line. 

The Non-Bugei, Hanwei Mid Range (Golden Oriole, Musashi, Shinto, Tokugawa) are absolutely no match whatever for the Bugei line. They are  however  an acceptable, economic alternative for beginners on a tight budget, and can be readily replaced if necessary. 

The Non-Bugei, Hanwei Low End (Wind & Thunder, Practical Plus, Practical), in my opinion, are never worth using in the serious practice of any JSA. They are an approximation of a katana, made for the masses, and I really do not even allow them in my students hands. To make them even moderately functional, the require a complete re-building from the blade out, and after spending that money, you can get one of the Non-Bugei, Hanwei Mid Range sword, or even a Non-Bugei, Hanwei High End sword. 

Bugei-Hanwei Collaborative Swords  
The Bugei Exclusive Line-Up 

The Samurai is the de-facto favorite for most cutting  certainly for heavy cutting. It has a robust blade, very good weight, and excellent balance for the weight. In short, it is the tireless workhorse of the line-up. The main reason  I believe  that people tend to shy away from it is precisely (ironically enough) that it is the de-facto choice: no one wants to be a sheep amongst the flock. It is  however  probably the best cutter for the money. Aesthetically, it is very utilitarian, but two things should be taken into account here. First, the utilitarian look appeals to many, as it is also a very elegant and understatedly handsome sword. No pomp or fan-fair here  just a damned fine cutter pretending to be nothing more or less than that. Second, if more variety in appearance is desired, a simple tsuba change can facilitate this reasonably. Of course, to really change a sword aesthetically, all new furniture should be done at once, so it is all in the same theme. Likewise, tsuka ito color can be changed, new wraps done, etc. My point here is that the sword is more than what you get when you buy it, and the blade should be of primary concern, not the appearance. All else can be changed over time. In fact, it will be changed as you use it  wraps wear out and have to be replaced, so the opportunity for variety and uniqueness in expression of the fittings and overall look will most definitely arise. Keep that in mind if appearance is of concern  you are not married to the look or theme that comes with the sword at initial purchase. 

The Bamboo is a great sword, and undoubtedly every bit the cutter that the Samurai is, however, it is a bit lighter. As such, it has less mass, and will tend to deal with bad and fouled cuts with ever so slightly less rigor. It may bend or twist more readily, but I seriously doubt that the measurable difference in ruggedness (if it can be reliably measured) would be very noticeable. Realistically, I dont think the difference (if there is one) would ever come into play: I can not think of a single situation wherein one might say Gee, if only I had the Samurai, this never would have happened. Aesthetically, I like the Bamboo better than the Samurai (although, I have been favoring the Samurai more and more in recent weeks  dont know why). 

The Wave has its own, unique allure. It is the most customizable sword of the lot. The Bamboo is very attractive (one of my favorites from all sources) and while utilitarian, the Samurai has a certain handsome, understated appeal. The Wave, however ... well, between the choice of colors for tsuka ito and saya, and the variety of sizes orderable, the option of Bo-Hi or no, and the choice between two different tsuba  it is simply a no-brainer, for aesthetic individuality. It has so many versatile options as to be a semi-custom sword. As a cutter, it is outstanding. Ordered without Bo-Hi, it is every bit as good as the Bamboo, and probably just as good as the Samurai. With Bo-Hi, its stability is indeed slightly lessened, but it is still a solid performer, outdoing every other production sword with Bo-Hi offered by any other company ( in my opinion). However, as stated, the Bo-HI will weaken the sword, and make it more prone to damage from bad or fouled cuts. That being the case, I would shy away from the Bo-Hi in your case, leaving us with three options: Samurai, Bamboo, and Wave without Bo-Hi. 

The Shobu Zukuri is an excellent sword with outstanding girth and weight. It is an excellent cutter, and aesthetically  like the Samurai  is clean, understated, and simply there. It is a stout and robust cutter, and its aesthetic appeal is largely in the unique blade shape: not too many swords out there in shobu zukuri, after all, and that statement alone can be very appealing. I believe the sword lets its cutting ability speak for it, and thus needs no flashy or ornate kanagu. The strong, silent type, if you will. The concern here is that for a new practitioner, it is probably not the best choice. Its behavior is unique to its shape, and those who are relying on a steady cutter that will behave like the swords and iaito they are used to, may find it a bit odd in the hand. Likewise, it requires some minor adjustment to ones technique and in ones interaction with the sword. What Sensei is trying to relate and instill may be impacted by this very subtle difference, and may negatively impact a new practitioners technique. [This is an individual and personal concern, and the opinions of other practitioners and instructors may vary  these are my opinions alone] On the other hand, for experienced cutters, it may be a good diversion  a nice change and a good experience that will have the practitioner get used to variations in sword behaviors. All in all, I love my Shobu, and would recommend it to any seasoned practitioner looking for something new to play with, but I would not recommend it to the beginning student. 

The Dragonfly is stunning, visually, and is lighter and more agile than the above. It is available with Bo-Hi as well, and so is even lighter still when ordered this way. It sports a ryuko (waisted, or hourglass shaped) tsuka that is very popular and lends it an even lighter feel in the hand. It has a slimmer blade (a lower shinogi) and very little, if any, niku (thats the convex curve from ha  edge - to shinogi-ji - ridgeline). This makes it a light weight, sleek, very agile cutter, but also makes for a more finicky cutter where hard or substantial targets are concerned. For those seeking a good, light, fast cutter but who do not require a heavy cutter, the Dragonfly is a terrific choice. However, I would recommend no Bo-Hi for beginners  again, the groove will somewhat weaken the blade. When beginning, strength should take precedence over sleek, weight saving grooves that will leave the blade more prone to damage from fouled cuts, which will most certainly happen. 

The Crane  much like the Dragonfly  is a light, sleek cutter, and I tend to think most of the important differences are aesthetic, so Ill leave it at that. Like its cousin, it comes with or without Bo-Hi at the buyers option, and for the same reasons, I recommend against Bo-Hi for beginners. 

And there you have it.  a categorical breakdown of each of the swords in the Bugei line-up, as well as a comparative look at the non-Bugei swords offered by Hanwei. I have purposefully stayed away from the money question, simply because of the fact that choosing a sword is not a simple economic decision. However, no analysis of a product line-up can be had without at least touching on the price tag, so here it is  

The Money 

The Samurai goes for $1025, and would probably provide the best bang for the buck, so to speak. Considering concerns about bad cuts, twisting, bending, etc., a new practitioner would do well spending the money here and getting an outstanding workhorse of a sword. 

I personally like the Bamboo, but at $1280, it is $255 worth of eye candy. If the eye-candy is worth the extra money, then by all means, go for it. 

The Wave is an excellent weapon, but realistically, even without Bo-Hi, it goes for $1525  thats $500 worth of aesthetic customizability. Granted, getting that work done (new wrap, new tsuba, fuchi, and kashira, etc) after purchase could cost that much and more anyway, so that said, it is definitely worth the money you spend, as long as you have the money to begin with. 

The Shobu Zukuri  at $925  is the most economic choice for the Bugei line-up, and this (coupled with its distinctive appearance) may be the main reason it seems to be one of the first choices for new practitioners, however, I still have to maintain that it is probably not a good choice for new practitioners  Ive mentioned my reasoning above, so Ill let that sit as it is. 

The Dragonfly and the Crane are the same price, and I feel the choice here is purely aesthetic  pick the kanagu you like. The geometry and performance factors are, as far as I can tell, practically and functionally identical. For most beginning practitioners who do not require a heavy-duty cutter  those who need light, fast blades with good light-weight cutting capability  this is a no-brainer. 

Conclusion 

So... what is the best sword for a practitioners first real sword purchase?

Well, lets assume two things here. First, that money is a serious consideration, and that you are looking to get the most for your money, while not breaking the bank. Second, that youve asked your Sensei/Instructor, and hes led you to a good conclusion as to the particulars (length, weight, school or style specific restrictions, etc). Given that, if you require a good, heavy cutter, I would suggest the Samurai. However, if heavy cutting is not required (and most beginning students do not do heavy cutting), then I would recommend the Dragonfly or the Crane. 

Also, if  given the above - you are leaning towards the Samurai, but like the Bamboo and have the extra cash, go for it  Youll see no important performance degradation there. Likewise, if you want to go a sep farther, go for the Wave and get the customized aesthetics you like. 

What about the Shobu? only (in my opinion) if you are an experienced, practiced cutter looking for something different. 

As to the question of Bo-Hi, I recommend it only if you require the sword be a bit lighter to alleviate fatigue and stress from sustained iai, kata, waza, etc. However, do keep in mind that Bo-Hi will slightly weaken the sword, and so will make your sword more prone to warping, twisting, and bending if a cut goes bad. For this reason, it is best to avoid if the buyer intends or expects harder or more substantial targets. 
 ********Written and opionated by Dimytri Komanatov********


Hope this is of use.
http://www.nootrope.net/firstsword.html

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## A. Lee

For what its worth, I _would_ describe the finish (shinogi ji area) on my Last Legend MK 1 as 'mirror like'.  It is kind of like the steel mirrors you find at camping stores but slightly less clear. I can see myself in the reflection and can actually use it as a mirror in a pinch.

Also I would add that most LL swords are only good at soft targets and not intended for hard target cutting as the current models have little or no niku. My MK1 model has no niku.

Pretty nice summary of the different katanas by the way Jon Heimerl.

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## Jamison L. Morin

> _Originally posted by A. Lee_ 
> *For what its worth, I would describe the finish on my Last Legend MK 1 as 'mirror like'.  It is kind of like the steel mirrors you find at camping stores but slightly less clear. I can see myself in the reflection and can actually use it as a mirror in a pinch.
> 
> *


 Is that just on the shinogi jI?

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## Erik Tracy

I'm just stirring the pot here....but,

The Shobu Zukuri is *not* a folded blade.  I used to own one and it has no hada and Bugei's site says it is not folded.

Not sure where folks get the impression that the Crane is "light and sleek".  Comparatively speaking it is only marginally lighter in 'feel' than say a Samurai (I own a Crane and our dojo has a Samurai - just used it last night for cutting).  The Crane's balance and weight still fall within the category of what is characteristic for a Bugei blade: substantial.

The Dragonfly *IS* sleek and light.  

The blade geometry between the Crane and the Dragonfly are very different according to the specs I took on both blades I own.

While Bugei's quality is the bar most other competitors aim for even Bugei blades have quality problems from time to time as I've seen some of the problems first hand.  But they do stand behind their products and offer immediate response to rectify any problems.

The Cold Steel katanas are problematic, in my opinion.  I owned one of those too as have several folks in my dojo - overall they were unimpressive cutters compared to other blades: too much difficulty in establishing and maintaining a cutting edge.

The Swordstore steel iaito that cut that I have seen and handled have a high degree of quality to the fittings and handle.  The one that I cut with was a very efficient cutter.  It was their iai-yo version with bo-hi and so succumbed to the inevitable bending when it's owner had that 'bad sword day' - more than once.

Simmer well,
Erik Tracy

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## Matt Lanteigne

Daniel, your post didn't seem to be anymore of an objective comparison as it was a promotion for bugei blades over regular chen blades. Rather than stating the facts for each sword and in continuance each company which will allow the reader to determine his or her own conclusions...you have far too many leading opinions based on personal merit in regards to the blades.

Not to nit pick, but product analysis should be a bit more free from personal opinion so the buyer can come to terms based on their own interpretation of the facts.

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## Daniel Bespalko

Matt,
I did not write that commentary it was just a copy from the link I posted. Yes it does seem to be very Bugei which I believe to be unfair and one sided. It was just posted as information available on the web and it is only one mans opinion, not mine though.
I also was not aware of the mis-information in that article.
Sorry for the confusion, I should have stated it was not my opinion. But I thought it would be understood it came from the link I posted. I have nothing to do with the information provided in that link or information provided in the article, I just thought it was somewhat helpful although it was very lopsided towards Bugei and very unfair to the other blades.
To clear the air the article was written by Dimytri Komanatov, I have also edited my prior post to make that known.
Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

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## Matt Lanteigne

Whoops, my mistake as well Daniel. I thought it was yours...ha! 

Who's Dimytri Komanatov?

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## A. Lee

> _Originally posted by Jamison L. Morin_ 
> *Is that just on the shinogi jI?*


Yes. The area from below the shinogi to the ha (forgot the correct term)  is a lot less clear.

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## Josh Slater

I believe Dimytri's review was taken a little out of context. It was meant to be a reference for people interested in Bugei swords, not as an all encompassing guide to what sword one should purchase. It was meant for Bugei, so obviously it focuses on the Bugei lineup, as it provides detailed information on the products offered in the Bugei catalog. Please clearly reference the proper source AND context if we are just going to repost everything that's out there on the internet into one thread. It gets confusing otherwise.

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## Daniel Bespalko

Josh,
You are so right.... now I do know what to do in the future.
It was my mistake not to reference the article in the first place.
Thanks

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## Mat Rous

I'd move the Wind & Thunder Up into the mid range price - it is roughly the same price as the Shinto on every site I have seen

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## Jamison L. Morin

> _Originally posted by A. Lee_ 
> *Yes. The area from below the shinogi to the ha (forgot the correct term)  is a lot less clear.*


 That's what I thought. Just making sure what I've heard is the truth and hasn't been stretched a little.

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## Angus Trim

I'd like to point out that the Swordstore kats by Fred Chen actually start around $1280. I've seen and handled a few lately, cut with a couple of them, and they're pretty good.

They're on the site as steel iaido, and can be optioned up quite well........

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## Jon Heimerl

Aargh.  Yes.  The Bugei site states quite clearly that Each (Shobu Zukuri) blade is individually hand forged from Swedish Powdered Steel that is not folded.  So, true, not folded and no hamon.  I am surprised that I missed this  I tried to be careful.  However, the overall lines and curve of these swords are smooth, and evenly rounded - mostly similar with comparable, though not exact, sori.  Indeed, the exact geometry of the blades are different.  Of the Bugei line, I have only seen the Crane, but did not touch it  it was a thing of beauty.  If this were made into a sticky, I would request that correction be made, as it is clearly an error on my part. 

Yes, I had seen the article by Dimytri Komanatov.   And it influenced some of my comments on the Bugei line.  But, as you can see, I did not rely on it completely.

I also mis-labelled the Wind and Thunder as the Thunder and Lightening (I can only say "Doh!").  Another error to fix if this is made into a sticky somewhere.  However, I think I have the katana sitting in the correct grouping.  It is on the expensive end of the unfolded steel group, in the $560-580USD (approx $800-830AUD) range.  The sites I checked, the Wind and Thunder runs 15-30% more than the Shinto.  If the price range on the unfolded swords goes to $560 instead of $550USD, the Wind and Thunder fits.

I think the opinions of people who have seen and used these katana are important.  I started this post as a kind of a reference list to group swords by relative price and quality.  The groupings are NOT perfect, clearly.  What most obviously makes the list imperfect is the personal preference of the people who see and use the blades.  My post couldnt be an exhaustive review of every blade on the list - that would be _pages_  I even left off the L6 and the 1086  I made a judgement call that someone new to katana would not want to spend that kind of money and wait 18 months (yeah, maybe I should have put them in the list).

When I started looking at Katana, my problem was that I didn't even know where to start.  I had seen a few, held a few, and used a couple.  But, were my experiences representative?  Once you have an idea what to look for, anyone can go to a variety of websites and pull down specifications for a blade.  If I have personally seen, used, and/or held the katana, I gave my honest feelings about the blade, partially based on my thought, Would I want one of these?, then Why, or why not?  If I had NO personal experience with the katana, I looked for enough clear and strong opinions about the katana that I could usually say many people felt this way.  I was very careful about my language for these opinions.  If I found three or four comments, I described the source as several, otherwise, for the most part, I was able to find more, and sometimes dozens...

----------


## Mat Rous

> _Originally posted by Jon Heimerl_ 
> *I also mis-labelled the Wind and Thunder as the Thunder and Lightening (I can only say "Doh!").  Another error to fix if this is made into a sticky somewhere.  However, I think I have the katana sitting in the correct grouping.  It is on the expensive end of the unfolded steel group, in the $560-580USD (approx $800-830AUD) range.  The sites I checked, the Wind and Thunder runs 15-30% more than the Shinto.  If the price range on the unfolded swords goes to $560 instead of $550USD, the Wind and Thunder fits.
> 
> I*


Sorry - I meant in Dimytri's article. He has it down as low end. Has it changed over time? 

BTW Whuich sites have it at that - the average I've seen it is at about $800:


Wind & Thunder Katana 
American:$859.37

Shinto Katana 
American:$703.12

On this site:

http://www.reliks.com/merchant.ihtml?id=54&step=2

I wish I could get it for AU$800  :Frown:  

We get stiffed here in Oz - I cannot find one dealer who stocks the W&T - check out the price for a Shinto:

AU$1490.00   :EEK!:   :EEK!:

----------


## Erik Tracy

> We apologise for the fault in the
> subtitles. Those responsible have been
> sacked.
> 
> Mynd you, møøse bites Kan be pretty nasti...
> 
> We apologise again for the fault in the
> subtitles. Those responsible for sacking
> the people who have just been sacked,
> have been sacked.


Sorry, couldn't resist....  :Wink: 

Just a correction to the corrections, Jon.  While the Bugei Shobu Zukuri is not folded it still is differentially heat treated and so has a very real and visible hamon.



Erik 'the half-a-bee' Tracy

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## Jamison L. Morin

> _Originally posted by Mat Rous_ 
> *Sorry - I meant in Dimytri's article. He has it down as low end. Has it changed over time? 
> 
> BTW Whuich sites have it at that - the average I've seen it is at about $800:
> 
> 
> Wind & Thunder Katana 
> American:$859.37
> 
> ...


 You can get the wind and thunder from j-armory for around $550 american I believe and also the PC tsunami for around the same price. You an also go to  888 knives r us and get both for around the same price.

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## Jon Heimerl

I would probably spring a debate about sites from which to purchase into a new thread, so I'll just list prices, and no feedback about what I think about these sites - though I clearly have a couple/few favorites.  That is probably another worthy thread if people can be moderate with their feedback.  But, that said, here:

For the W&T 

Check out these sites - all prices in USD - prices posted as of 9/17/2004 - no guarantees on availability or additional shipping costs.

www.dragonflyproducts.com $560
www.samuraiarmory.net $561
www.bladematrix.tv $527

Before I bought, I would probably contact the people at www.whiteherondojo.net and ask them their price - they don't list prices online.  I'd be surprised if they were not at least competitive.

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## Walter Y.F. Wong

This is also quite informative as well.  By Toby Threadgill:
http://www.swordforumbugei.com/phpBB...pic.php?t=1800

Toby Threadgill 



Joined: 12 Oct 2003 
Posts: 75 
Location: Evergreen, Colorado 







 Hi, 

Disclaimer: Although a good friend of Bugei Trading Co, Ted Tenold, Howard Clark, Big Tony & friends I am totally objective when it comes to comments on a subject like this. My position as Kaicho of the Shindo Yoshin Kai means I must remain objective. My positive evaluation of many products from Swordstore.com have probably raised eyebrows at Bugei I'm sure, but my reputation for objectivity is very important to me. If I were to allow my personal friendships with these men to color my opinion on such an important topic it would taint everything else I offer here. 

Simply stated, Swordstore offers some really excellent products. In my opinion their price point is a bit higher than Bugei's but they should still be seriously considered. My everyday sword is a Swordstore "Steel Iaito" I used it for tameshirigiri for a time but found it a bit fragile for heavy targets.It is now dulled andI use it as a mogito. I like it's koshirae and balance very much. The fit in the saya however is not quite up the level of most of my Bugei swords. 

With that said...... 

My students constantly approach me with this delimma so I offer the same advice here that I do to them. My slant is get a good iaito first and learn to handle it. After you have become familiar with the iaito ( Swordstore, Tozando, Nishijin, Meiren Sangyo etc...) start preparing to purchase a good shinken. Get as good a shinken as you can possibly afford! 

At the bottom of my list for a good shinken is one of the more expensive Chen offerings but I do not recommend this option highly. Next up is a Swordstore Steel Iaito. It has very good finish quality but the blades can be a bit fragile. Higher still is one of Bugei's production swords like the Dragonfly, Crane or Wave. Higher still is a custom Howard Clark offering. Swordstore's Japanese custom forged blades made in Seki are a good option. They are very nice blades but frankly overpriced compared to a Howard Clark in my opinion. A Howard Clark blade, polished & mounted by Keith Larman /Ted Tenold is almost impossible to beat in the quality / cost arena. 

The Last Legend is not even on my radar screen! I handled one recently and unhesitatingly announce it unfit for my use in my dojo. There were so many things wrong with this sword that I won't even waste my time discussing it here. 

Frankly, concerning shinken I'm with the crowd that say's "save you're money and buy what you really desire." Anything else is just a waste of you're hard earned cash. 



Last edited by Toby Threadgill on Tue Jun 08, 2004 6:00 am; edited 1 time in total
_________________
Tobin E Threadgill / Kaicho 
Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin Kai

----------


## D.A. Guertin

Joe,

   Where are you at in Houston?  It seems like there are getting to be enough of us here that we might be able to do a cutting party in the fall.  Dmitry is a little far South, but he should be able to make it.  I'm between Tomball and Houston, there's a fellow over at Kuykendahl and Louetta in Spring, and at least one more up here in the Woodlands, where I work.  I have several shipments coming in here pretty quickly, so it could be fun.

   Darryl

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## Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini

@ Mr. Guertin. I wonder if anyone, to these days, has ordered a folded Shobu (even in Tameshigiri version) mounted in Nagamaki way... It's intriguing me *too much*. If any, are pcitures available ?

----------


## D.A. Guertin

No, no Shobu as of yet.  I have a modified version of the Keicho that passes well for an early naginata / nagamaki though.

   Darryl

----------


## Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini

Ah, yes, UnoKubi zukuri fit...

----------


## Cyril Statum

I have to agree with Mr. Wong: " the Last Legend is not even on my radar screen! I handled one recently and unhesitatingly announce it unfit for my use in my dojo. There were so many things wrong with this sword that I won't even waste my time discussing it here."  I owned a Bear and a Tsunami, before I returned them.  I found from a very reliable source that they have a tendency to warp and or bend.  That coupled with the cheesy fittings, cosmetic kassakis, and poorly done tsuka ito did it for me.

----------


## Gabriel Duvane

Slight correction, Practical Katana and the Plus have the same blade, just different fittings.

----------


## Keith Archer

Just wanted to add here that I have a Paul Chen PK and the PPK.
They don't have exactly the same blade.  The hamon on the PK is pretty straight.  On the PPK it has some pattern.  Also, the polish on the PPK is a little nicer.  The dimensions seem very similar.

----------


## Jamison L. Morin

> _Originally posted by Keith Archer_ 
> *Just wanted to add here that I have a Paul Chen PK and the PPK.
> They don't have exactly the same blade.  The hamon on the PK is pretty straight.  On the PPK it has some pattern.  Also, the polish on the PPK is a little nicer.  The dimensions seem very similar.*


 I believe what was meant was the actual physical blade in proportion to each other.

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## Keith Archer

Your're right.  Other than the hamon and maybe slightly better polish on the PPK, the blades are identical.

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## Pete Johnston

Nice presentation for those of us (like myself), that don't have a vast knowledge base about Katanas.

Thanks!  :Smilie:

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## Shinta Kojiro

Last Legend: A newbie on japanese sword making, but actually pretty nice, i have a dragon katana, and it's probabaly the shapest katana I ever see. (sharper doesn't mean better).  But many features are non-traditional.  I don't like them because I like more traditional Japanese-like swords. But they perform pretty well.

Cold Steel: I don't even call their "katanas" katana,  I call them replicas.  Their "katanas" arn't differently tempered and doesn't have hamon, I just can't stand that.  But they do cut.

Paul Chen (non Bugei): Pretty nice, I don't like the shape of their tsuka but the blade are pretty authentic.  They arn't always paper-shaving sharp, but they're more than just great for their price.

Bugei: You can call some of their swords "professional level" but some other swords arn't that great.  I don't like Crane and Dragonfly because they looked pretty weak.  But I do recommand their Samurai katana and Wave katana. (but pretty pricy)

----------


## Nicholas Zeman

OK, I'm probably going to make some people mad with this post, but that is not the intention, I just want to point out some facts about production swords that seem to get confused with these kinds of global comparative reviews.  For the sake of clarity, let's examine the many sword re-sellers or dealers, and where they have their prodcuts manufactured.

Bugei  -  Paul Chen's factory
Paul Chen  - this is pretty self-explanatory
Last Legend - Fred Chen's factory (no relation to Paul)
Cold Steel  - Fred Chen
LiveBlade-  Fred Chen
Swordstore steel iaito - Fred Chen
Darryl Guertin  - Fred Chen

(This list leaves out any custom swords offered by any of these companies from individual smiths)

OK, if we look at this list we see that two factories in China are responsible for the manufacture of almost all of the production swords offered currently.  From what I understand, each dealer has their own account and relationship with the seller and submits their own designs, but the people making these designs are the same.  So if we really think about this, is the quality going to be astronomically different between a Bugei and a Paul Chen's higher end swords?  Probably not.  The fittings might be nicer, and the quality control will be a lot better, but that's what you're paying the extra money for, but the difference isn't enough for somebody to justify spitting on a PC Bushido while elevating the Bugei Samurai to Excalibur status.  The same goes for all of the Fred Chen made swords, the Cold Steel versus the Last Legend or the Swordstore steel iaito are all made by the same guy, or group of guys, and so you can expect reasonable similarities in global quality.  Of couse each line is made for different markets, but this is like when one car company has another make a car for it.  I drive an Isuzu Rodeo, who also made the Honda Passport.  Now the Rodeo and the Passport are the exact same car, and yet the Honda costs more.  This is the point I am trying to make here, sometimes paying an extra 800 dollars for a different name on a sword made by the same person is just market inflation.  We all want to buy the best sword for the best deal we can, and so these comparative tests and reviews can really be useful, but know how the production sword industry works so you understand a little better what you're buying and where it is made.  If anyone has any corrections or updates on this information (factual, not opinion) please make sure to post it, my goal here is really just to illuminate production sword manufacture and resale to the people on this forum who want to spend their money wisely.

----------


## Daniel Bespalko

Well said and goods points were made, thanks for a nice comparison.
IMHO,
Dan

----------


## D.A. Guertin

Actually Nick, that list is completely wrong.  :Wink:

----------


## Angus Trim

> _Originally posted by D.A. Guertin_ 
> *Actually Nick, that list is completely wrong. *


Hi Daryl

I'm not so sure..... 

Let me explain. Of late I've seen swords from three of the retailers listed for FC. I don't know that Fred Chen had something to do with the swords, what I do know is that the same factory made them. I've seen enough swords by enough manufacturers, and have a background myself, to tell you that each manufacturer actually kind of "signatures" themselves in their work......

I haven't seen one of the swords you retail {yet}, but if I was to see a standard shinogi crossection piece that you retail, or preferrably a piece with bohi, I could tell you whether its from the same factory.........

Auld Dawg

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## Nicholas Zeman

I was under the impression that the Fred Chen factory made swords for the dealers I listed, and this was gleaned from some time-consuming searches in the forum to understand where these production swords are coming from.  If this is wrong, then please illuminate me with the origins of their manufacture.

----------


## D.A. Guertin

To try to keep it as brief as possible, Fred Chen is rather sort of the Grandfather figure in this situation.  This is as it was explained to me by the people leading the company I deal with.  He was the very first, and began making the swords for Cold Steel.  His head smith left and founded his own shop, the one I deal with.  Rick Barrett was working with Fred Chen originally, and that was the 'Cicada Forge' bit.  Rick got out of the game to spend time with his newborn, and concentrate on custom work (which he's done well at).  Rick turned from Fred Chen to the break-away company.

   Enter Last Legend.  I ruffled more than I few feathers getting the details across on making the blades I sell.  Mine were by very definition, different.  Some people really don't like different.  In fact, enough people don't like different that they left.  Break-away number two.  Last Legend.

   As it was explained to me,

     Darryl

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## Nicholas Zeman

Thanks for clearing that up Darryl, the production sword market in China is a murky entity for us consumers to figure out, so it's nice to know a little bit more about its inner workings.  As an additional note, I think your designs are really nice, I especially like the wide range of historically based sugata, it's a nice departure from the usual shinogi zukuri with different thicknesses and fittings.

----------


## K. Melchior

Let me ask that the other way round, because now I am utterly confused:
Does Fred Chen's company still produce swords for any of these?

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## D.A. Guertin

As best I know, he is still over the Cold Steel swords.  That being the case, I have never been in contact with him, or his company, only the separatists.  :Wink: 

   Darryl

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## Anton Shillingford

Oh dear, oh dear oh dear.........wouldn't it be easier for someone in the "know" to simply set up a concise "family tree" of mass produced/market swords and where they originate.....I think by doing that people would stop asking the "whats better" question....also if we could narrow the whole market down a bit, then someone could do a definative comparrison between sword manufacturers, rather then name brands.

Personally I would like to see a complete end to mass market/produced swords and see nothing but custom made blades...NOT excluding iaito blades of course.....which even these could be made on a custom basis. If cost is such a big issue to practioners of cutting, and they feel they will somehow damage their blade by using it in that fashion, then perhaps they need to reconsider the whole issue of cutting with a shinken.......

would you decide never to buy that Ferrari you've always wanted for fear you may crash it when you drive fast? well guess what don't drive fast.....

Plus doesn't everyone in the know consider a custom sword to generally be of a higher quality and standard then a mass produced sword? So if a custom blade were to last three times as long as, and cost three times as much as....a mass produced sword...doesn't that actually equal the same thing?

Surely it was due to an "urgent" need in a wartime situation that kick started the "oh lets produce as much as we can, quickly" syndrome. So surely decades after the sword was considered an effective battlefield weapon, is there still a need to produce so much so quickly? now that the sword is effectively a work of art why are we knocking them out like Ford Motor Cars?

----------


## Peter W.P.

Permit me to voice polite disagreement with the following notion:




> _Originally posted by Anton Shillingford_ 
> 
> *Personally I would like to see a complete end to mass market/produced swords and see nothing but custom made blades...NOT excluding iaito blades of course.....which even these could be made on a custom basis*



I do agree that there are very valid reasons for justifying the existence and value-for-money better made and/or higher performance products provide. I do not however believe an end to mass-produced swords would do anything more than make matters worse, not better, for our collective interest (I won't say 'hobby' as that might irk those for whom swords are training tools).

Rewind fifteen years (in my own experience) and all my friends and I were able to find on the market at that time were cheap 'decorator' 'wall hanger' SLOs, sharpened stainless steel 'time bombs' (aka. 'brittle shatter city saturday night special swords') and other unmentionables for the measly few hundred dollars any of us could muster. This is from the perspective of someone who was _not_ a member of a dojo or otherwise 'connected' to 'people in the know'. One could argue that a sensei should be consulted, a dojo joined, and lessons taken however the type of buyer about whom I am referring would then change from 'an enthusiast interested in owning a _functional_ as opposed to _futile_ sword' to 'sword arts student/practitioner'.

I will avoid the term 'traditional' because I am no sword expert but do know peoples' idea of what constitutes 'traditional' varies much more widely than their idea of 'this could be used (somewhat?) like the original blades were meant to be'. Mass-produced blades of the 'functional' sort serve an important purpose in that they offer an alternative from higher-priced custom pieces and also from the 'rat-tail tang trash' whose value even as display pieces is dubious at best. Consider this: though one may argue very convincingly that a Mercedes-Benz (to pull a random 'quality' brand name  out of my proverbial hat) offers three times the performance, three times the comfort, and three times the durability/reliability of an entry-level automobile, how many of us would never have had the opportunity to own our first car had the Benz, _at three times the price of its lesser counterpart_, been the only auto available for purchase? Similarly, if only the high-end high-priced automobile is available (thus adding substantially to the overhead costs) how many could even afford what instructors would have to charge for driving lessons given the cost of the 'equipment'?

With regards to mass-produced swords engendering more interest in sword (not SLO) ownership it might be interesting to conduct a poll in the forum asking participants who now own a prized higher-priced custom-made sword (or treasured antique) to answer the following:

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

If you own a high-end custom or antique sword of any type (worth over $2000.00 USD) please indicate which _most accurately_ describes your progression (or lack thereof) towards acquiring your prized possession(s). Please read all the answers before making your selection!

a) I neither owned nor bought any other swords (or SLOs) before getting my high-end sword(s).

b) I started out with another custom and/or antique sword (over $2000.00 USD) before getting my high-end sword(s).

c) I began with one or more $500.00-$1,999.00 USD 'functional' production or custom sword(s) before getting my high-end sword(s).

d) I began with one or more $100.00-$500.00 USD 'functional' production sword(s) before getting my high-end sword(s).

e) I began with 'decorator'/'wall hanger'/'SLO'/'flea market special' sword(s) before getting my high-end sword(s).

f) I began with ALL of the above! SLO/'wall hanger', then 'functional' production swords (at various prices), and finally  expensive and/or antique blades!

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

I believe the proliferation in 'functional' blades that are within reach of the average consumer is beneficial to our collective interest. I for one had completely given up on the notion of owning anything even remotely resembling an actual functional katana until I'd heard about about and read up on Hanwei (Paul Chen) blades, their Practical Katana being primarily responsible for re-igniting my interest in swords. Surprise: there's some decent-looking _affordable_ stuff out there! I did eventually decide upon a different company's offerings but this does not diminish the fact I would not be here reading about and discussing swords were it not for the widespread availability (and marketing) of Hanwei products.

Like many before me have likely done, I do not doubt my interests and tastes will be refined as time passes and knowledge/widsom is gained, and with that progression my own blade-owning ambitions (along with the price of what I aim to own) will increase. Someday, somehow, some maker of high-end custom blades may without even knowing it owe a sincere 'thank you' to a certain company in China who cranks out far lesser (in comparison to the custom maker's) swords because without that Chinese company doing what they do said high-end bladesmith would never have had the chance to bankrupt me  :Big Grin: 

With kindest regards,

- P.W.P.
uninformed enthusiast  :Wink:

----------


## Anton Shillingford

I mostly agree with the points raised above!! However.....

Most people ( perhaps or perhaps not including sword art practioners ) will have been bitten by the sword bug, because of the whole mystique that having a sword once meant, chivarly, honour blah blah etc etc.....for most people a trip to an antique dealer or custom blade smith will somewhat smother that mystique as a price is quoted and "reality" bites!!

Enter the (SLO) and mass market "higher" end sword!!!! 

Now the point I was making, and I think the suggested survey above also confirms this, is that people don't normally enter into the game of sword collecting with aspirations of owning a PC practical Katana or a Kris Cutlery standard blade, c'mon! so these swords are a "make do" until I can afford something better........the mass market swords are playing off of this attitude that we have to settle for something less, and hence we have the inevitable question "which mass market sword is best for.......fill in the blank......" and hence the original thread.

Beginners don't have faith in mass market blades, especially the cheap ones, because unless you're seriously getting ripped off, everyone knows...you get what you pay for!!! 

I can understand a sword practioner wanting something "cheap" to practice with, and yet everyone I know who trains says "a custom blade cuts better, last longer and is generally a higher quality, not to mention is made to suit exactly the ergonomics of their body" so why waste time buying something that we know is inferior....why! Are we saying sword collecting, sword arts etc is for everyone? I certainly am not, I'm not being elitist, but I think the collecting of swords should be limited to those who are willing to sacrifice the $$ to own the right sword for them, rather then simply settling for second best!!!

I don't know the author of the above statement, however I would suggest that person is here because they share a fascination for blades and the sword culture....not because cheap alternatives exsist!

As regards the Mercedes Benz analogy...nice! especially the part about lessons, all of this is valid!! but this only works if someone wants a sword, any sword, any cheap sword.....then fine, in my wonder land they would find themselves a bit stuck!! so for this lets thank God for the Paul Chens of the world, however, most aspiring sword collectors don't want any sword.....they will have an ideal in mind, and this is what starts them off!!

So the person who really wants a merc, would they be happy to settle for a honda civic? after all...it is cheaper!

----------


## Peter W.P.

'Settling for second best' particularly if the individual concerned has the means at their disposal to obtain something better is something people in forums such as these surely try to discourage at every turn. Those who are utterly content to stop at SLOs (I shudder at the thought) are beyond help either because they are not interested or because they fail to appreciate the myriad aspects of something closer to (or in the case of antiques _actually are_) the originals.  Being an amateur numismatist, I can certainly subscribe to the notion any effort expended in search (and endless research) of 'the genuine article' is never a wasted endeavor.

Note: due to lack of standardized terminology, my use of the term 'reproduction' in this post should be taken to mean "an item whose maker has invested appreciable time, research and/or effort into making it resemble an original, including but not limited to making components thereof by hand and/or using processes similar to those employed by period craftsmen."

Even though I pride myself on what few decent coins I've managed to collect, I do own the odd reproduction (these are indelibly marked somewhere on their surface so as not to be useful for fraud, etc.). The fact is I cannot afford an original 18th century Spanish gold 8 reales coin but do have a very nicely done reproduction thereof, for example. Were I to win the lottery it would be replaced in a heartbeat - though I might then pop the reproduction into my pocket as I needn't worry about scratching it up against other coins  :Wink: 

As for the swords, I would enjoy owning an original Japanese blade from just about any pre-Meiji era and would also appreciate a 14th century western European broadsword and probably a rapier or two - were it within my financial means to acquire any of them.  As they are all out of my monetary reach I will content myself with the sorts of production blades I can afford. Since my arrival here various blades have attracted my interest, Darryl Guertin's being a particularly good example since these are intended to accurately represent Japanese blades from specific time periods.

The 'functional' blades I buy at present also serve another purpose I would be reluctant to perform with expensive originals even were they within my reach: I hope to become active in the S.C.A. again and when I do my blades will become a fun 'fashion statement' once again.

As I interpret 'custom sword' to mean "a blade specifically and individually made to the buyer's specifications" rather than one that is a 'stock' blade with mountings of the customer's choosing, these are unfortunately out of my price range as well. Since such a blade in the form of a katana would be of most interest to me personally and since I've no JSA training (and according to the dictates of common sense shouldn't make such a large investment without training and a sensei to consult with before buying such a blade) I'll not go that route yet.

Anton is quite correct in stating I am here because of a fascination for blades, not because I am interested solely in cheap alternatives nor because I will simply stop after buying a 'production' blade. Do I agree with the idea that a custom blade, being by its very nature _precisely_ what the client wants, is the best course of action for anyone with the funds to go that route? Absolutely: why waste precious time and money on 'almost' or 'good enough' when literally the perfect proposition is affordable? 

For those people who (for example) haven't any other choice but to ask:

"What's the closest I can get to a historically correct-looking katana for under $500.00?"
"Is the <insert inexpensive sword here> good for tameshigiri?"
"I want to re-enact. What model of English reproduction sword is authentic-looking for the Hundred Years' war?"

... or other similar sorts of questions simply because they can't afford a 'one-off' there is a part for the production blades to play.

_Buy the best you can possibly buy?_ Absolutely. I think this is another case of both Anton and myself being right in the slightly different context we have each outlined in our respective posts. Am I here because production blades rekindled my interest in what I had thought was out of my price range for something 'reasonable'? Yes. Am I here because I aspire to someday acquire something more than that? Definitely.

I look forward to learning even more and to taking part in further discussions. This thread is certainly a useful one for those looking for the swords described herein.

- P.W.P.

----------


## Joe Choi

Hello...all
I've been reading this forum for awhile and to those of you who wants to buy your first real nice sword, try to read all the  opinions available on forums before asking (everyone has their favorites), then decide how much you can spend (if it's a couple of $$$ more give more time and save the extra $$$, you wont regret it) and go for the one you really will like to have for a long time. 

I've read all the forums available and have purchased LL Dragon. Take a look...yeah yeah...some of you will hate it but it's very solid, good balnce, good fittings and it's sharp...both the look and the blade. (maybe I got lucky???)

----------


## Walter Y.F. Wong

> _Originally posted by Cyril Statum_ 
> *I have to agree with Mr. Wong: " the Last Legend is not even on my radar screen! I handled one recently and unhesitatingly announce it unfit for my use in my dojo. There were so many things wrong with this sword that I won't even waste my time discussing it here."  I owned a Bear and a Tsunami, before I returned them.  I found from a very reliable source that they have a tendency to warp and or bend.  That coupled with the cheesy fittings, cosmetic kassakis, and poorly done tsuka ito did it for me.*


Actually I was just quoting someone else's post that contained that comment bout Last Legend.  I personally have never said anything negative bout Last Legend cause I haven't experienced their swords yet.  I'm looking to get a Last Legend sword to see for myself.

My exposure to Japanese swords currently are most of the Paul Chen standard Hanwei line from low ends through high ends, a few Paul Chen Bugei swords, a Howard Clark Forged Folded and a Nihonto that my sensei bought from Japan.  I myself currently only have a PPK (anyone wanna take it off my hands for $150.00?), Paul Chen Tsunami and a swordstore Iaito and expecting another swordstore Iaito to arrive in the mail.

----------


## Victor Hung

I think production blades are around because there was a market for them.  There are people that have an avid interest in swords, but perhaps lack the funding or willingness to acquire a custom piece.  When I first began my love affair with Chinese swords and Japanese katana I was in high school working at a local hollywood video.  I would argue that my dedication and interest in blades was (and still is) incredibly high.  I am thankful there were low end production swords for me to start off with.  Or what about all the people out there making minimum wage, trying to support their families?  A close friend of mine is in a situation like this and he loves swords.  He reads about them and trains with his wooden swords every spare moment he gets, but he simply cannot afford a custom sword.  $15000 a year and he is supposed to save up for a custom or get a new hobby?  This hardly sounds fair.  (A group of us pooled our funds together and got him a Bushido for his last birthday though).  

As for custom blades performing better and lasting longer, that is probably true.  It better be when they are thousands of dollars!  But some people will never need the "long lasting-ness" of a custom sword.  And a lot of people will not notice the difference in performance because their skill level may not yet be high enough.  The sword may never get pushed to the limit.  So a productions sword would be a good choice.

Also, as I purchased more and more production blades I learned more and more about swords.  Naturally my taste is more refined now and I hardly glance twice at a Paul Chen Practical or Shinto, etc.  But those first swords I had were learning experiences and they made me very happy at the time of purchase.  I think that without production swords being available to people, the sword market in general (including the custom arena) would shrivel up and die.  

Just my thoughts on the topic.  I just think everyone should be able to enjoy swords at whatever level they choose to enjoy it at.  Some people are weekend warriors and the some are content with nothing less than Excalibur.  To each his own.

----------


## Troy Raines

Speaking of Howard Clark blades approx what price range they start at? anyone know?

----------


## Jamison L. Morin

> _Originally posted by Troy Raines_ 
> *Speaking of Howard Clark blades approx what price range they start at? anyone know?*


 A katana starts around $3000. That's for a bare, unpolished blade strait from Howard.

----------


## Troy Raines

Thank you for your reply, bugei's site did not have any details listed at all ; price, options nothing.  Do you have to pay the whole thing up front or do you do installments?  Id hate to pay all upfront and have to wait a VERY long time before I recived it.  College classes cost money rent cost money, which is more important rent or high end sword?  Sword of course.

----------


## Victor Hung

I don't think Bugei sells them anymore.  I believe you would have to go straight through Howard Clark.  I'm not completely sure, but when I was looking into it I think I remember one being able to pay a fraction of the cost upfront and commit the rest later.  I'll have to check again.  

http://www.liveblade.com/customsword/customusa.html

This site might have some Clark blades in stock.

----------


## Troy Raines

If you do find out more, please post it or in order to have less clutter please feel free to pm me if you want, in the mean time ill keep searching.  Thank you for your reply.

----------


## Michael Liu

ur best bet is to go straight to the source

www.mvforge.com

i believe the waiting time is 18 months or so.

----------


## Jon Heimerl

can anyone say "hijack"?

----------


## Troy Raines

?

----------


## Victor Hung

Just wondering, I know that most of these production swords are intended for cutting soft targets as are REAL weapons.  Here is my questions though, how durable are they in terms of steel on steel contact?  Would they hold up as well as a properly made antique sword?  And for that matter, how well does a real antique sword hold up to parrying etc?

----------


## John Nelson

Hehe... yeah, the REAL question is, "Will it cut through an AK-47?"

----------


## J. Boschert

The samurai sword was designed to cut FLESH quickly and cleanly.  It was not designed as an AX.

Human bodies would fall into the "soft to medium" target group....if I am not mistaken.

With proper technique, many samurai swords of yesteryear were tested by cutting through *several* bodies at once.


JB

----------


## Clyde H.

I really do think you need to look at the Generation2 BWT katana again.
No it does not have the beautiful hamon line like most but it is a true temper line just the same.  They do have the steel Kashira and a better tip line.
Not to mention the two new tsubas available.

Clyde

----------


## Chad L

ok first, Im a newbie on the site.  second, Ive been practicing a few sword related martial arts (iaido, kendo, kenjitsu) for about three years now, and my need for a sword has been burning inside me.  Now Im pretty poor, so Ive narrowed my choices to these:

paul chen practical plus
cold steel warrior
last legend (low end)

now heres what ive heard.  Ive heard the pc's have quality problems with fittings and the blades arent always sharp, however there is a temper line.  Ive heard the cold steels cut well but have no hamon, and are a problem to sharpen.  Ive heard the LLegends are not traditional in appearance (how is this?) but are sturdy and cut pretty well. Is this all true?  my main concern is quality and ability to cut, sturdiness and balance.  overall, which would be the best buy?  does anyone own all three types?  also, Last legend has a new line of swords that arent the Mark I and II's...do they still have the same properties as the marks? i appreciate your help. thanks

----------


## David Huang

So I got my Cold Steel 88BK in the mail just yestarday and I've been testing it out.  The sword cuts through gallon milk jugs easily, made 10 slices out of one jug.  1 to 2 inch rolled newspaper is no problem either.  The blade is nice, bohi looks good and I kinda like the non-polished dull look.

Complaints:  The tusba is warpped, I am sure it's cast iron, but they can at least make a straight mold...  The sword is a bit heavy for my taste, but I don't think I can get anything lighter than 2.6 lb for a katana.  I am just too used to kendo sticks....  

One note from cutting rolled, wet newspaper is that you must wipe down your blade right away, the paint from the paper is apparently corrisive when it's wet??  I dunno, but it stained the blade, took me a while to get the stain off after it set in.  So do it fast, have a cloth with you or something.  Wipe it after a set of strikes.

That is all for now, I will review the PC practical pro when it comes in the mail.

----------


## Vincent Black

> _Originally posted by Victor Hung_ 
> *I think production blades are around because there was a market for them.  There are people that have an avid interest in swords, but perhaps lack the funding or willingness to acquire a custom piece.  When I first began my love affair with Chinese swords and Japanese katana I was in high school working at a local hollywood video.  I would argue that my dedication and interest in blades was (and still is) incredibly high.  I am thankful there were low end production swords for me to start off with.  Or what about all the people out there making minimum wage, trying to support their families?  A close friend of mine is in a situation like this and he loves swords.  He reads about them and trains with his wooden swords every spare moment he gets, but he simply cannot afford a custom sword.  $15000 a year and he is supposed to save up for a custom or get a new hobby?  This hardly sounds fair.  (A group of us pooled our funds together and got him a Bushido for his last birthday though).  
> 
> As for custom blades performing better and lasting longer, that is probably true.  It better be when they are thousands of dollars!  But some people will never need the "long lasting-ness" of a custom sword.  And a lot of people will not notice the difference in performance because their skill level may not yet be high enough.  The sword may never get pushed to the limit.  So a productions sword would be a good choice.
> 
> Also, as I purchased more and more production blades I learned more and more about swords.  Naturally my taste is more refined now and I hardly glance twice at a Paul Chen Practical or Shinto, etc.  But those first swords I had were learning experiences and they made me very happy at the time of purchase.  I think that without production swords being available to people, the sword market in general (including the custom arena) would shrivel up and die.  
> 
> Just my thoughts on the topic.  I just think everyone should be able to enjoy swords at whatever level they choose to enjoy it at.  Some people are weekend warriors and the some are content with nothing less than Excalibur.  To each his own.*


I couldn't have said it better myself!

I am deciding between a LL 3000 series and Paul Chen's Bushido Katana for what I consider my first quality production blade. The most I ever see myself spending anytime soon would be about $1000 on a Bugei Samurai. Anything beyond that would be a Howard Clark and seeing as he is not talking orders and will be busy till 2007, I am not even gonna think about getting one anytime soon.

----------


## David Huang

Oh man... that's just say that I resold it after I took a look at the sword.

Horrible sword, the Ha (edge) wasn't uniformly sharp.  It was dull near the guard and dull near the kissaki (point) (spelling?).  The synthetic leather wrap looks awful (personal opinion) and the blade has a huge taper on it.  The blade height goes from 1.5 inch at the guard to less than 1 inch near the point.  

The long handle must be an preference because when i swung it around, I keep catching the Tusba on myself.  I guess it'll be better for a person with longer arms i.e. taller over all (I am 6')

Well, that's my review for paul chen pro.  I didn't own it long enough (1 day) to look at it in more detail.

----------


## John L. W.

"One note from cutting rolled, wet newspaper is that you must wipe down your blade right away, the paint from the paper is apparently corrisive when it's wet?? I dunno, but it stained the blade, took me a while to get the stain off after it set in. So do it fast, have a cloth with you or something. Wipe it after a set of strikes".

David, your right about this. My advice to everyone is not to cut wet newspaper anytime. I work in the newspaper industry and to put an image on paper requires the use of a fount solution that works along side with the ink. This can have an etching effect on something like fine sword steel. People could end up wrecking their blades doing this. When you wet the paper, the chemical is re-activated, hence the staining, or should I say, etching. Every time a cut is made, a little bit more steel disappears. :EEK!:

----------


## Jon Seabra

I've gotta say, Nothing i've seen can compair to an original. The katanas that had been forged for the samuri. my grandfather's daisho is absolutly beautyful, only thing is, it's woth far too much for us to use.

----------


## Daniel Migliore

> _Originally posted by Jon Seabra_ 
> *I've gotta say, Nothing i've seen can compair to an original. The katanas that had been forged for the samuri. my grandfather's daisho is absolutly beautyful, only thing is, it's woth far too much for us to use.*


"at least you have one"  :drool:

----------


## Mike Femal

My dojo periodically gets together to rate different swords.  While everyone has their own opinion on what is better, we also compile weight and measurements on all the swords.  We have only one purpose - we want better and more affordable swords for use in our martial art.

http://208.63.68.209/sword_dimensions.htm

----------


## Jon Seabra

> _Originally posted by Daniel Migliore_ 
> *"at least you have one" *


Their not that hard to find, just look around for Nihonto.
One problem. The really nice ones cost more than my house, but their really  *really*  nice.

----------


## Philippe L.

> _Originally posted by Mike Femal_ 
> *My dojo periodically gets together to rate different swords.  While everyone has their own opinion on what is better, we also compile weight and measurements on all the swords.  We have only one purpose - we want better and more affordable swords for use in our martial art.
> 
> http://208.63.68.209/sword_dimensions.htm*



Hi, it's a great work, I looked longtime for a such review...thanks!

I was about to buy a LL   3000 series Rônin 1090 Steel..but I saw that the new LL katanas are not as good as the old Mk I to VII series...so I'll wait to know more about this Katana which first pleased to me...

----------


## Mike Femal

> the new LL katanas are not as good as the old Mk I to VII series


We are trying to find out why that example of the new LL was inferior.  The sad part is that it is actually my sword that we rated, and it was a gift from my wife  :EEK!: .  I had specifically asked for that sword, and it is not easy to explain why none of us liked it.  Thank goodness she is part of the testing and understands.  I hope....

One of the testers had personally used a different LL from the new series, and was quite happy with it.  It was his Mark VII we tested.  He had been planning on getting the unfolded version of the same sword we testing, but has put that on hold for now.  Unfortunately we can only rank the swords we gather together for our test.  Ill update the site if we get any new information.

----------


## B.MacNamara

Actually for cold steel and some paul chen swords like the wind and thunder and the tsunami katana, you can get them from some dealers on ebay for half the cost.I know the wind and thunder was going for around $450.00.Just make sure you check the dealers feedback stats.I bought a cold steel imperial katana and it was very nice brand new as stated and arrived in excellent condition.It retails for over $800.00 and I got mine for $399.00 !!!!

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## B.MacNamara

here the link for the cold steel imperial katan and this dealer has a 100% feedback rate!!   http://cgi.ebay.com/Cold-Steel-Imper...QQcmdZViewItem

----------


## Robert Moran

> _Originally posted by Mat Rous_ 
> *I'd move the Wind & Thunder Up into the mid range price - it is roughly the same price as the Shinto on every site I have seen*



What he said!

Bob

----------


## Jon Heimerl

I don't know if you guys have this post confused with another.  

The Wind and Thunder and the Shinto fall exactly next to each other in the original write up, in the higher quality, mid-price line of the non-folded Chen blades.  I just budgeted 10 minutes to search prices, and I found online sites that claim to be able to sell each in the $450-500 range, just as originally written.

???

----------


## Mat Rous

Read my comments on the first page.

----------


## Dave Luck

Well, I was looking into a Last Legend Yashima 4000 (0.5 inch Sori, full niku.) Any ideas? I... I didn't see any information regarding the Yashima 4000 series. I was going to order it with the 'enhanced polish' option. 

I want my sword to cut... and be durable to withstand the heavy cutting of tameshigiri. As for what it looks like, I prefer the bare, plain simplicity of a blade. So long as the hamon's visible; and I want it to be a nice hamon. 

Any comments?

- Dave.

Edit; Should I get a Bo-Hi?

----------


## P Coderch

> _Originally posted by Jon Heimerl_ 
> *For a beginner, or for someone who basically wants to know  I have compiled this post from other postings in this forum, other forums, and conversations and email exchanges with other people.  For the most part, I have included my impressions from the information I read.  If I include a comment as someone elses impression, I made sure that at least three people provided the same comment  no unsubstantiated comments are in here, unless they are my own opinion.  Where the opinions are my own, I will state so clearly.  I have just gone through this process, and would have found a post like this invaluable.
> 
> The basic question is, what is a good katana?  I expand on this question in this posting to include some information about how does a PK compare to a Cold Steel, compare to a Last Legend, compare to a PC Tiger or Blue Orchid, compare to a Bugei et al  weve all seen these questions.  I cant answer all of these questions in detail, but hopefully I can provide enough information that other people with similar questions can get some answers here.  To help explain the differences, it would be imperative to understand the terminology of the katana. Since someone considering a first sword probably doesnt know all these words, I will try to explain English usage as well.
> 
> The answer is NOT simple.  It depends mostly on a combination of usage and cost.  I have grouped blades by overall cost and relative quality, though your specific wishes for the blade may require you to adjust my quality ratings, I suspect that most people will agree - overall.  If someone disagrees (or agrees), please post a follow-up!  In a couple places, I do post comments about the feel for the blade  Feel is important, and completely subjective.  If you find a blade, but cant fit it in the price range I list below, you have not looked hard enough.  Prices listed are current as of 9/14/2004
> 
> $140-250.  The Paul Chen Practical line should be considered entry-level blades. The Practical has some plastic components and the handle covering is glued on.  It should probably be considered functional but not durable.  The Practical Plus has higher quality and more traditional fittings (koshirae) than the Practical.  Both are made from high carbon steel and are differentially tempered, with a prominent temper line (hamon).    The Practical Pro (sometimes called the Fantasy) is a heavier blade, and has a longer handle (Tsuka), and also has a more finished polish on the blade.  The Pro handle wrap (Tsuka-ito) is ray skin (same) and synthetic leather.  Some people have posted that the leather loosens with even limited cutting.  I have not seen or handled a Pro, but feedback I have read seems to be that the Pro is heavier and not balanced as well as the Practical Plus blades.  The Pro may have been developed to compete with some of the other heavy blades from Cold Steel and Last Legend  to serve as a more durable cutting sword.  Most reviewers I have seen recommend the Plus over the Pro.  In most writeups, the Practical Plus Katana is abbreviated as the PPK.
> The PC Tokugawa also falls in this price/quality range.  Fittings are mostly traditional, with a leather tsuka-ito. Several writeups listed it as superior to the PPK.   Most reviews indicate this to be a good sword for the money.
> ...


  Excellent post, Mr.Heimerl. My suggestion, to you, is to have a kataná custom-made, following the full Japanese Tradition. Myself, I'm getting one from a famous Toshyo, who studied under the tutelage of Yoshiharo Yoshinda.

Regards
P Coderch

----------


## brad graper

Get the best sword you can afford that meets your needs. 
If you are only going to use it occasionally, don't invest thousands of dollars in something you won't use (unless you want one from the collector standpoint).  As a serious student and practitioner of kendo, iaido, kenjutsu, haidong gumdo, or something similar, you should get the best equipment you can afford.  That will mean different things to different people.  

Of course, what is allowed in your dojo/dojang will influence this.  I know 1st dan folks who don't own a jingum because the official ones sold thru the federation are so expensive.

----------


## Lovebell Forrest

> _Originally posted by Dave Luck_ 
> *Well, I was looking into a Last Legend Yashima 4000 (0.5 inch Sori, full niku.) Any ideas? I... I didn't see any information regarding the Yashima 4000 series. I was going to order it with the 'enhanced polish' option. 
> 
> I want my sword to cut... and be durable to withstand the heavy cutting of tameshigiri. As for what it looks like, I prefer the bare, plain simplicity of a blade. So long as the hamon's visible; and I want it to be a nice hamon. 
> 
> Any comments?
> 
> - Dave.
> 
> Edit; Should I get a Bo-Hi?*


Davidson,

The new generation from LL are so new, not a  lot of data is known about them. Like the comparison post above. It has lots of older data. 

It will take maybe  a year for the reviews to come in on the new "families" by LL.  Mine being one of them. 

If you take in person to Cecil Sensei, you may find that the polish option isnt the best for cutters. You will get scratches, which will really stand out. 

On Bohi.  Lighter VS stronger. IMHO stronger wins every time.  Like you, I havent had the honor of testing a LL. Mine is on order. I went without Bohi, because I am of the belief that the lightness isnt worth the weakening of the blade.

----------


## Skyler R.

> _Originally posted by Dave Luck_ 
> *Well, I was looking into a Last Legend Yashima 4000 (0.5 inch Sori, full niku.) Any ideas? I... I didn't see any information regarding the Yashima 4000 series. I was going to order it with the 'enhanced polish' option. 
> 
> I want my sword to cut... and be durable to withstand the heavy cutting of tameshigiri. As for what it looks like, I prefer the bare, plain simplicity of a blade. So long as the hamon's visible; and I want it to be a nice hamon. 
> 
> Any comments?
> 
> - Dave.
> 
> Edit; Should I get a Bo-Hi?*


I would have the say to not get the higher polish for a cutting blade (as already said it will scrach and stand out). As for the Yashima...well I should be getting mine in any day now so I can let you know when I do.  :Smilie:

----------


## Lovebell Forrest

> _Originally posted by P Coderch_ 
> *Excellent post, Mr.Heimerl. 
> 
> *


This OLD post Originally posted by Jon Heimerl  Is outdated.

Seem that only the Bugei crowd seem to keep bringing it back to life. 

Im sure if you go back far enough you will find a post supporting how the world is flat.  

ALL of the blades mentioned hereforth have gone thru updates, new lines and quality control issues.

Bury the dead horse, its been beat to death.

If you have a lot of money buy the best you can USE.

If you dont, then pick carefully, there is more junk out there than good. No two swordspersons seem to agree what is good for the money.

----------


## Paul K

> _Originally posted by Lovebell Forrest_ 
> *This OLD post Originally posted by Jon Heimerl  Is outdated.
> 
> Seem that only the Bugei crowd seem to keep bringing it back to life. 
> 
> ...
> 
> ALL of the blades mentioned hereforth have gone thru updates, new lines and quality control issues.
> *


 So perhaps it's time for updating?

I've been off of this forum for a while, though I've read it off an on since it became SFI.  Boy have things changed  :EEK!:  

As far as JSA goes, the mood is now decidely, and often angrily, anti production sword; yet there are more production Japanese-style swords than ever.

As a practioner of a traditional JSA interested in buying a sword in the $1K range, there is no choice but from the range of production swords.  I'd need double the budget to start considering even the less expensive custom smiths (as awesome as their work is, that's not in the cards for now). The following is how I see my current options in the production Japanese sword world (I'm sure I'll miss some):

Chen/Bugei:  Selling much the same swords I remember from a few years back, with the addition of the "Dragonfly" model.  These have always had a solid reputation, and I assume nothing has changed (though competitors may have caught up).  They offer a broad range of sizes and geometries, from the traditional "Samurai" and "Bamboo" models, to the niku-less "Dragonfly" aimed to be a tatami cutter.   As a marital artist, my biggest concern is that the tsukas are quite straight and tend to not follow the curve of the blade, leading to somewhat of a "sword on a stick" look that is not traditional (and may functionally impact technique).

Last Legend:  From what I've seen of these, they suffer from an extreme version of the straight tsuka "sword on a stick" problem I mentioned above.  In fact, it is so extreme that I'm wary to consider them at all, regardless of their other qualities.

Swordstore "steel iaito": These aren't discussed very much when compared to the others.  They are more expensive, but if my SwordStore iaito is any indication, they will have a traditional tsuka shape and high quality fittings to match.  I would be absolutely confident in buying a sword from them, but it comes at a price; the swords are 50%+ more than most of the others on this list.

Cicada Forge: They have several levels of sword, from the mono-steel bladed "Shogyusha", priced below the Chen/Bugei offerings, all the way up to "semi custom" swords in the $2K range.  Custom smith Rick Barrett seems to have had some input on at least some of the blade designs, but it's not clear what exactly his role is in this venture.  All of these seem to have a more traditional shape than the Chen or LL offerings, I'm guessing the fitting quality varies substantially w/ the price of the different lines.

Imperial forge:  Found their site linked on the internet, not much real, usable information on their website.  Look a lot like P Chen swords; standard chinese shinken on straight stick tsuka.  Upper models probably differentially hardened, but who knows.  These are on the cheaper end of the spectrum, even for their folded blades.

Thaitsuki Nihonto: Made in Thailand despite "Nihonto" in the name.  These are intriguing because they are on the cheaper side (less than Bugei Chen blades), yet seem to have a more traditional shape than either the Bugei, LL, or Imperial Forge lines.  If the blade quality is poor, that's all for naught though.

Dynasty Forge: A large product range, from a through-hardened 1060 line priced below the Bugei swords, all the way up to swords they claim are made from tamahagane for about $2K.  Sweet spot appears to be the Bushi forge-folded line or Daimyo 1095 mono steel line, both of which are differentially hardened and have fairly traditional lines.

J-Armory/Furuyama: In addition to selling the old non-Bugei Paul Chen line, J-Armory offers swords from "Furuyama", as well as their own line of "J-Armory Master Series" swords which appear to simply be variations of the Furuyama folded blades.  Pricing is consistantly lower than the Bugei swords.  Like many of the "newer" production swords, the lines of these swords appear more traditional than those from Paul Chen or LL.

On top of that, from my brief reading of current news in the General forum, it appears that Paul Chen (and therefore likely Bugei as well) is about to completely overhaul his line.  I have little to no idea what these will look and handle like.  From the few authoritative posts here it (unfortunately for me) looks like they're going to move more towards the niku-less tatami slicer part of the market.

To summarize, it looks like the Bugei/Chen line has stayed somewhat static (but that's looks like it's about to change), while a few newcomers have arisen who at least appear to be placing an emphasis on making more traditional (looking) swords.  How these options stack in terms of overall quality has been difficult for me to determine.  The current mood on the board seems to be eager to detract from any and all production swords, rather than distinguish between the qualities of those that are offered.

2 years ago I would've picked up a Bugei exclusive Chen sword and been done with it, despite the tsuka issue.  Now that there are multiple equivalently and cheaper priced swords with more authentic lines, the question becomes which ones stack up in quality?  Which ones are just better-looking wallhangers not suited for MA use?

I'd be interested to hear the opinions of those who've handled the swords I've mentioned (or add ones that are not), especially those who've had a chance to compare different ones.

----------


## M.K. Ridgeway

> As far as JSA goes, the mood is now decidely, and often angrily, anti production sword; yet there are more production Japanese-style swords than ever.


  boy ,you said a mouthful there.

----------


## Paul K

> _Originally posted by M.K. Ridgeway_ 
> *boy ,you said a mouthful there.*


 I'm really not out to provoke anybody.  I'm just a little surprised at how different the attitude seems to be here as compared to a couple years ago.

When I was getting into the martial arts, and it's not all that long ago, maybe 8-9 years, there was no such thing as a production japanese sword.  You bought either a nihonto (new or old), gunto, custom western-made blade, or an iaito if you wanted to practice.  I remember the original Paul Chen blades coming to market, and the commotion they caused.

Back then, it seemed everyone was excited about it, but again, the choice was easy; Chen was the only guy in town for production japanese swords.  There was maybe a little unease, but the line between custom pieces and production was pretty obvious, and both sides seemed to leave each other alone.

Now I could probably find a dozen different makers, quality seems to be much higher on the whole (but not universally), which has all made the market much more confusing.

----------


## James Vu Nguyen

Hi, I was hoping to see if anyone had any insight about Dynasty Forge swords. I would be more interested in there forge folded line up. Any help would be great thanks.

----------


## Paul K

> _Originally posted by James Vu Nguyen_ 
> *Hi, I was hoping to see if anyone had any insight about Dynasty Forge swords. I would be more interested in there forge folded line up. Any help would be great thanks.*


Unfortunately not for the forge-folded line, but there are a couple reviews of the 1095 mono steel Dynasty blades if you search the general forum, which seem mostly positive.

I keep hearing that Adrian Ko did/is doing a review of a Dynasty Forge sword as well, but I can't seem to find it?

I'm also interested in hearing more about Dynassty Forge, they have a lot of nice options at a price point competitive with the other "high end" production retailers.  What they don't seem to have is years worth of martial arts users of their swords to give opinions like the other producers do.

----------


## Lovebell Forrest

> _Originally posted by Skyler R._ 
> *I would have the say to not get the higher polish for a cutting blade (as already said it will scrach and stand out). As for the Yashima...well I should be getting mine in any day now so I can let you know when I do. *


Keven Sensei at White Heron also advised me NOT to get mine polished, for the same reason.

----------


## David Yagami

> So perhaps it's time for updating?
> 
> I've been off of this forum for a while, though I've read it off an on since it became SFI.  Boy have things changed  
> 
> As far as JSA goes, the mood is now decidely, and often angrily, anti production sword; yet there are more production Japanese-style swords than ever.
> 
> As a practioner of a traditional JSA interested in buying a sword in the $1K range, there is no choice but from the range of production swords.  I'd need double the budget to start considering even the less expensive custom smiths (as awesome as their work is, that's not in the cards for now). The following is how I see my current options in the production Japanese sword world (I'm sure I'll miss some):
> 
> Chen/Bugei:  Selling much the same swords I remember from a few years back, with the addition of the "Dragonfly" model.  These have always had a solid reputation, and I assume nothing has changed (though competitors may have caught up).  They offer a broad range of sizes and geometries, from the traditional "Samurai" and "Bamboo" models, to the niku-less "Dragonfly" aimed to be a tatami cutter.   As a marital artist, my biggest concern is that the tsukas are quite straight and tend to not follow the curve of the blade, leading to somewhat of a "sword on a stick" look that is not traditional (and may functionally impact technique).
> ...


I find the "anti-production sword-elitism" quite funnie, although at times quite annoying, as it does little to help a martial artist that *NEEDS* bang-for-buck and still be able to eat & not have to work years to repay something that costs more than my car...

That being said, anyone have any idea where Cicada Forge disappeared to? What about DGuertin? both their sites have simply disappeared w/o a trace! 

That being said...

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## Paul Loatman

> I find the "anti-production sword-elitism" quite funnie, although at times quite annoying, as it does little to help a martial artist that *NEEDS* bang-for-buck and still be able to eat & not have to work years to repay something that costs more than my car...
> 
> That being said, anyone have any idea where Cicada Forge disappeared to? What about DGuertin? both their sites have simply disappeared w/o a trace! 
> 
> That being said...


I don't know about Cicada Forge but i do know that DGuertin was having trouble with his forge in China and was getting swords at an extremely slow rate, eventually people got angry and he stopped his business.

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## Glen C.

> I find the "anti-production sword-elitism" quite funnie, although at times quite annoying, as it does little to help a martial artist that *NEEDS* bang-for-buck and still be able to eat & not have to work years to repay something that costs more than my car...
> 
> That being said, anyone have any idea where Cicada Forge disappeared to? What about DGuertin? both their sites have simply disappeared w/o a trace! 
> 
> That being said...


Actually, there is a fair amount about the lore and histories of several forums. I'm not one to simply point at a search but in this case, a forumite that has been around awhile just might find some paths they are looking for. After some time, it becomes like stories around the campfires. While some of these sagas predate many, there is still a lot to share (or spend a bit researching).

I have moved this and made it a sticky post. Why? Well, because I can damn well do what I please. I am not a huge sticky person placer but the title hit the spot and might prompt wanderers to look about the past more often.

Cheers

Hotspur; _keyword searches can do wonderful things_

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## Glen C.

Some time ago, I had made this a sticky post and then removed it from the headlines.  A real truth is that few read the sticky posts with intent and the same quesions are asked time and again anyway.

Having (not so long ago) unstuck it, we'll pin it again as possibly helpful but I still suggest some put soem time into exploring the possibilities of previous threads with both good questions and good answers.

 :Smilie:

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