# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  General Sir James Hope Grant

## JordanPL

I feel very embarrassed in posting this thread, as I am really very new to sword collecting, but I am so excited and thought that I had to share it. 

I purchased on auction here in South Africa, an 1822 Pattern Cavalry Sword (I stand to be corrected on that) that was supposedly owned by General Sir James Hope Grant. I will not rehash his military history here, as he is a fairly well known chap and a Google search comes up with a number of results on him, like this Wikipedia one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hope_Grant

https://www.nationalgalleries.org/co...lancers-pg-343

I don't have the sword in my hands yet, but should have it this week, when I will be able to take better photos. In the meantime I have attached the photos from the auction house for your perusal and comment. 

The question I wanted to ask as well, was that the sword is dated 18th Nov 1852 (Wellington's funeral by some coincidence) and the painting in the National Gallery in Scotland is dated 1853. Could it possibly be the same sword as in the painting?

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## Ben Bevan

1821 pattern to be precise, but what an absolutely marvellous find ! Many congratulations Jordan, if the sword was mine it would definitely be the one in the painting...General Grant, the 'Delhi Spearmen', and a Wilkinson, fantastic!

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## JordanPL

Thanks Ben, and thank you for correcting me in terms of the pattern. I have just received Richard's book, as well as Robson's revised edition so I am still going through them and have much to learn.

I am so pleased with it, and cannot wait to get my hands on it later in the week. I also feel somewhat overawed by being able to own such a wonderful piece of history and as I said slightly embarrassed, due to me being new and_ clearly lucky_ at this game!

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## Ben Bevan

And a 'Great Game' it is too! My recent 'Probyn's Horse Find' only took about twenty five years, but don't be embarrassed, it just spurs everyone on to know they're still out there...with a large amount of envy, of course!

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## JordanPL

Indeed, a 'Great Game'  :Smilie: 

I did read with interest your thread on your Probyn's Horse sword and what a wonderful sword it is, you must be over the moon. Would love to see photos when you can work out how to upload them easily  :Smilie: 

In the meantime, I also acquired a 'Hodson's Horse Cavalry Trooper's Sword Pattern' a little while ago, which I thought you might like to see as you clearly have an interest in British/Indian Army metalware!

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## JordanPL

Loooking through Richard's book, I presume as you say, Grant's sword is an 1821 Pattern Light Cavalry Officer's sword?

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## Ben Bevan

Yep, that's the fella. Your Hodsons Horse blade again is a great find! Hopefully our resident Raj expert Gordon Byre will comment in much more detail, dimensions of the blade would be helpful. Well done twice!

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## JordanPL

Thanks Ben, I have already spoken to Gordon about the Hodsons and he has been incredibly helpful  :Smilie:  

Would be interesting to hear his comments again though  :Smilie:

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## Will Mathieson

Jordan can't find a better example and a Wilkinson too!  Did you apply to get the Wilkinson proof page at:  http://www.armsresearch.co.uk 
You can email Richard Milner and get the info emailed: enquiries@armsresearch.co.uk
I find the proof page a great addition to any Wilkinson sword.

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## JordanPL

Thanks Will. 

I didn't because I thought that you could only get them when the sword had a serial number and was post-1854? 

This sword is dated 18th Nov 1852, do you think they could find the proof page with that date?

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## MikeShowers

Jordan,
That is one very nice Wilkinson.  The date, as you say, is Wellington's funeral and Hope Grant was apparently home during this period...it certainly poses interesting questions.  When you get the sword it would be interesting to know if it has signs of service sharpening.
Cheers,
Mike

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## JordanPL

Thanks Mike.

His regimental record says that he returned from overseas duty on the 3rd Feb 1851 and he returned overseas on the 10th Dec 1853. And I found an article saying that he played golf on the 23rd Oct 1852 at St. Andrews. So he was definitely around. 

Will update with photos and info as soon as I get the sword.

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## JordanPL

Interestingly there is also a photo of Grant from 1860 (attached) wearing what looks like the same sword, although you can only see the hilt.

The sword came from a deceased doctor's estate and it has an old tag on it stating "1822 Pattern Cavalry Sword marked J.H.G. to go with print JAMES HOPE GRANT". The auctioneer has promised to ask the widow when he sees her, if she still has the print. I wonder if it is not a print of the portrait or the photo? It would be just further proof tying the two together.

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## Will Mathieson

Jordan I was so impressed with the sword I forgot about the 1854 date, sadly no record would exist today. I recognize the 1860 photo and probably so would others.
Good luck with the widow, too bad you could not meet her in person, may have good stories to tell.

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## JordanPL

I did email Richard anyway and unfortunately he did confirm that he cannot help. He suggested contacting Robert Wilkinson-Latham, whom I have private messaged, to see whether he has any info in his archive?

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## John Hart

> The sword came from a deceased doctor's estate and it has an old tag on it stating "1822 Pattern Cavalry Sword marked J.H.G. to go with print JAMES HOPE GRANT".


Great find, and that's pretty good provenance too!

John

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## JordanPL

Thanks John.

Courier organised and sword should be here on Wednesday  :Smilie:

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## J.G. Hopkins

Robert may be able to find something for you. There is an identical blade rubbing on page 172 of his book Wilkinson Sword Patterns and Blade Rubs, well, identical except for the initials and date on the blade, but that is because not all of the blade is shown in the image. Good luck and congrats on a very desirable sword!

Jonathan

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## JordanPL

Thanks Jonathan, I was hoping that Robert might be able to shed some light on the sword for me too. I would welcome his comments  :Smilie:

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## JordanPL

Sword arrived, here are my attempts to compare the positions in the portrait and photo.

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## Will Mathieson

No doubt one in the same but I would use the blades etching as confirmation.  The photo and portrait showing a checkered pommel and same number of grip wire does add confirmation. 
The forward sword knot hole shown in the photo also adds since not all had this feature.

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## Will Mathieson

Does the scabbard paint appear old? It does not appear someone recently painted it to cover up corrosion as I don't see any under the areas of paint loss. 
The portrait shows the scabbard in the white but it may have been painted later during or after its service life.

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## JordanPL

Thanks Will, further photos of the etching attached. Nice to hear an expert agree with my thoughts regards the provenance. And I wasn't sure about the features you had mentioned like the chequered pommel etc...Presumably all add up in terms of evidence.

Scabbard paint definately appears old and the metalware under it appears relatively clean as you say. Did they not sometimes paint the scabbard to prevent the reflection of the sun in the hotter climes?

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## MikeShowers

Jordan,
If Sobraon is the last battle honour (chronologically) on the sword you can use this to narrow the time period down a bit.  If you can find out when the 9th was given the battle honours for Chillianwallah, etc. then you have a timeframe from then back to Sobraon.  If the Chillianwallah/Goojerat honours predate the Nov18, 1852 date (the battles certainly do) you can presume that Hope Grant already had the sword and had his initials and date added to the sword, rather than him ordering the sword around the time of the funeral. If the battle honours didn't show up until after 1852 then it's likely that he got the sword around the time of the funeral.  You've probably already thought of this but I thought I'd mention it anyway.
Cheers,
Mike

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## MikeShowers

> Robert may be able to find something for you. There is an identical blade rubbing on page 172 of his book Wilkinson Sword Patterns and Blade Rubs, well, identical except for the initials and date on the blade, but that is because not all of the blade is shown in the image. Good luck and congrats on a very desirable sword!
> 
> Jonathan


And the caption states that it is a blade rub from 1852. The battle honours are only up to Sobraon.  Maybe Hope Grant decided to get a shiny new sword in 1852?

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## JordanPL

Thanks Mike, I had thought of that but not in too much detail  :Smilie: 

What I had done was look at the Army Lists either side of 1852, as they listed the Battle Honours. So attached are the 1847,1850 and 1853 Army Lists. The 1847 Army List does not include Sobraon whereas the 1850 and 1853 show the same sequence and number of Battle Honours. So I believe that narrows down the date correctly. 

And of course with your *brilliant assistance* with regards the caption in Robert's book and the etching being dated to 1852, it certainly appears that Grant bought himself a shiny new sword.

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## John Hart

Good spot, Mike!  Honours for "Sobraon" (fought 10 February 1846) were awarded on 8 June 1847, and "Chillianwallah" (fought 13 January 1849) on 14 December 1852.  Honours for "Goojerat" and "Punjaub" (battle of 21 February 1849 and for the entire campaign of 1848/49) were also awarded on 14 December 1852.  So this would date the sword more precisely between 8 June 1847 and 14 December 1852.

John

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## JordanPL

Excellent John and Mike! And these dates would fit with the dates Grant was 'home' and also the portrait dates. 

I was wondering whether perhaps the sword was a special purchase to go with the commission of the portrait by his brother Sir Francis Grant. Although the portrait is dated 1853 at the Scottish National Gallery, perhaps it was commissioned and originally painted in Nov. 1852. That would fit in with him wearing it so proudly in the portrait?

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## John Hart

> Although the portrait is dated 1853 at the Scottish National Gallery, perhaps it was commissioned and originally painted in Nov. 1852. That would fit in with him wearing it so proudly in the portrait?


I'm no art expert, but I would think a painter would sign and date a portrait when he'd finished it, rather than when he started it!

John

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## JordanPL

True  :Smilie: 

I have written to the Scottish National Gallery to see if they have any more info, you never know.

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## JordanPL

Hi again

Any chance someone knows where I could get a copy of Mr Wilkinson-Latham's book: _Wilkinson Sword Pattern & Blade Rubs 1844-1954_ or if not, could anyone take a copy of page 172 for me. I would love to see the etching dated 1852, the one that is the same as the etching of my sword?

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## J.G. Hopkins

The blade rub in the books does not show the entire blade (so no initials or date), so if it is a rubbing of Grant's blade there is no way to know.

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## JordanPL

Thanks Jonathan, I just presumed that they would have made a few swords with the same etchings in 1852? Is that correct?

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## Matt Easton

What a wonderful and historically important sword to find. Thanks again for sharing it with us Jordan - it's rare to be able to pin down swords for such important people as Hope Grant. Someone asked earlier in the thread, but I don't think the question was answered - has it been service sharpened?
I own a few swords of Indian Mutiny officers, the sword of Peter Stark Lumsden probably being my most prized (I'm currently reading his book, which is a biography of his brother, who led the Corps of Guides).

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## JordanPL

Thanks Matt, really pleased with it and very lucky to find it here in SA! I do wonder how it got here?

You are right, I didn't answer the question regards service sharpening, completely forgot. You know I am new at this so not sure exactly how you would know, but just to say it is NOT sharp  :Smilie:  Not sure if it ever was?

Your Lumsden sword sounds wonderful! It really is a privilege to be able to own these pieces of history!

I have just ordered some books on the First Anglo Sikh War and the Opium Wars, so that I can read a little more about Grant. Have read enough Mutiny books, but might read them again because of Grant  :Smilie:  Also wanting to buy the Wilkinson Blade Rubbings book, if you have any leads?

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## Matt Easton

I think this is where most people buy Robert's books: http://pooleysword.com/en/Publications

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## JordanPL

I have tried but apparently he now sells them directly. They said they would forward my enquiry to him.

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## Matt Easton

Okay, useful to know! I want copies of all his books myself.

Regarding the service sharpening; if it has been sharpened then there should be a secondary added (ground) angled bevel on the front cutting edge (usually from about 8 inches up from the guard) and usually for about 4-6 inches of the false edge on the back near the tip. If you're able to post some close-ups of the edge then we can probably tell you if it was service sharpened. Even if it was service sharpened, it is rare that swords remain sharp enough to cut with now, as they were then sometimes slightly blunted after service or became blunt from continual sheathing and drawing from iron scabbards. The sharpest swords I have either have wood/leather scabbards or the officers were killed on active service and the swords stored away without further use from that point onward. Swords were generally sold blunt and then service sharpened only when active service was expected - this kept the swords in better condition and made them safer for handling. Some people did service sharpen their swords for fun, personal defence or for doing sword feats (cabbage cutting etc) though.

If your sword is not service sharpened then that is also interesting - it would suggest that Hope Grant carried a different sword on active service. We know that Colin Campbell carried a different sword in the Mutiny than the sword he is pictured in full dress wearing. Equally, certain other officers in the Mutiny are known to have different swords for service, including non-regulation specially-made swords, basic trooper's swords, as well as Indian swords - Nicholson famously carried a Sikh khanda or firanghi (we only have images of the hilt and know it was straight, so difficult to say which).

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## JordanPL

Hi Matt, okay here goes in terms of my photos. 

To my eye does it not look service sharpened but you guys would know best. 

There certainly are two other photos I have seen of Grant where he has a Mameluke, one from the Second China War and the other when he was much older. So I am sure he had his preference in terms a 'service' sword?

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## JordanPL

Please let me know if there are any other photos I should take?

In the meantime here is the engraving I was talking about, where he has a Mameluke as far as I can see

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## John Hart

That's a Tulwar - they were quite popular with British officers in India.  It has a knucklebow, which isn't as common as the open type, but still seen from time to time.

John

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## JordanPL

Thanks John, I thought it might be a Tulwar but wasn't sure...shows how much I know!

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## JordanPL

Some exciting news, well exciting to me  :Smilie: 

I had contacted the Regimental Museum as they had been very helpful in the past with other enquiries and I received this reply from them today:

*



			
				I've made some enquiries and we are quite sure that the sword was produced to commemorate the funeral of the Duke of Wellington which took place on 18 November 1852 and at which General Hope Grant was present. In addition I've been advised that the sword was specially made with that date etching on it, ie it is not a sword that General Hope Grant already had, and had the date added to it. I attach the extract from the London Gazette which lists those present at the funeral.
			
		

*

And here is the proof that he was certainly on the list to attend:

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## Matt Easton

Well, that sort of answers it then! This sword was not service sharpened, as it was not his service sword. I've never seen him with a tulwar before, but this seems to confirm it as his service sword (like many other officers who carried Indian swords, including Nicholson, sometimes Hodson, sometimes Shebeare and others). That engraving looks like it is set in China?

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## Matt Easton

Ah yes, a quick image search shows it's from the Taku Forts in 1860/61, so it seems likely that this tulwar was the sword he carried on campaign during the Mutiny a couple of years earlier.

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## JordanPL

Yup, definitely all coming together now.

Would he have taken the sword to India and China as suggested in the Felice Besto photo from 1858/60? Presumably not to use as a 'campaign' sword but rather for 'special' occasions?

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## Matt Easton

Yes that would be normal - one regulation sword for parade and full dress, another sword for in the field. Campbell did the same, as did various other officers. Unfortunately these historically significant Indian swords have probably been sold off as regular swords, as they are unlikely to have any identifying marks. It could be that the Indian sword was with your sword for some time but the two got separated as nobody realised the connection.

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## JordanPL

That's what I thought, there certainly were no Tulwars in the same auction but even if there had been, would have been very difficult to prove, as you say, that it was his.

Although this sword didn't inflict any bodily harm at least it is marked to him and a nice Wilkinson in it's own right. And it's in the painting and photo  :Smilie:

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## Will Mathieson

Matt is correct in regards to separated swords. I have one Wilkinson infantry sword dating to 1846 and it is mentioned in the officers will, but as plural "swords".  
Both or more of his swords would have been shipped to his relation in Canada and later at some point the swords were separated. 
Would have been great to have the sword Capt. Longworth used at the battle of Sobraon since he commanded the regiment and led them into battle. 
As Matt says these swords most likely have no identifying markings.

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## JordanPL

Thanks Will and Matt. 

Is it Capt.Longworth's sword that you have I presume? His full dress sword I mean, not the field one.

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## Matt Easton

Interesting the mention of a will, Will… Shebeare's letter to his family (brother I think) says that he was sending two swords home from India - one his 'old war sword', which was a cavalry sword that he picked up from a fallen fellow infantry officer, which he described as too heavy, plus a tulwar which he says he wore most places after he got it. He also asked his family to order him a top quality 'regimental sword'. So potentially he had three swords and only one of those might be identifiable to Shebeare - the other two appearing as a regular cavalry sword (perhaps 1853, or 1821 officer's) and a tulwar… if either still exists, they are probably neglected and unappreciated!

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## Matt Easton

> Although this sword didn't inflict any bodily harm at least it is marked to him and a nice Wilkinson in it's own right. And it's in the painting and photo


Yes it is a wonderful sword! I'd be very happy to have that in my collection.

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## Will Mathieson

Longworths Wilkinson sword is a regulation 1845p infantry sword with brass scabbard. He was promoted to Maj. for gallantry after commanding the 31st regt. at the battle of Sobraon. 
Field officers wore brass scabbards and the good condition of the sword though sharpened suggests he bought it after being promoted. 
The 31st regt. had no field officers when the battle of Sobraon began, they were killed and injured. The battle was fought at the point of the bayonet and Longworth had his horse shot out from under him but was one of the few officers to escape injuries.

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## JordanPL

Great provenance there Will. I have sent you some info on H.C.Onslow...hope you don't have all of it!

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## JordanPL

> Yes it is a wonderful sword! I'd be very happy to have that in my collection.


Thanks Matt!

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## JordanPL

Does anyone know how to get hold of Robert Wilkinson-Latham? I would really like to see if I could get a few of his books.

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## John Hart

> Does anyone know how to get hold of Robert Wilkinson-Latham? I would really like to see if I could get a few of his books.


As per Matt's post #36, Pooley Sword should have Robert's books.

John

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## JordanPL

> I have tried but apparently he now sells them directly. They said they would forward my enquiry to him.


Unfortunately they don't sell them anymore and although they said they would forward the message, no joy yet.

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## JordanPL

Received this today. The auctioneer eventually got around to visiting the widow of the previous owner and she very kindly shared her late husband's documents on the Hope Grant sword.

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## John Hart

Those were the days, when a researcher's time came to only £2!  That was a few weeks' pocket money for me then!

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## JordanPL

Agreed! And there would have been much more physical work back then...definitely no online resources  :Smilie:

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## Matt Easton

What on earth did people think was an 1834 pattern?  :Smilie:

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## John Hart

> What on earth did people think was an 1834 pattern?


Probably comes from when there weren't many good reference sources available - someone captioned a photo "Cavalry sword, 1834" and it was taken to mean there was a pattern of that designation.

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## JordanPL

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I had ordered these a while ago and have been waiting for them to arrive. I thought they would go wonderfully with the sword. 



Only to discover the the book had a little surprise inside:

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## Matt Easton

Great stuff, I'm currently finishing of a book written by one of the owners of one of my swords.

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## Will Mathieson

That really adds to the sword. I'm sure there is more just waiting to be found.

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## Ben Bevan

Fantastic Jordan, truly envious of the Probyn connection, and here she is!

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## JordanPL

Thanks chaps, I appreciate the comments. 

The Probyn connection was unexpected, I would have been happy with just the books  :Smilie:

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## Martin Lewer-Allen

> Fantastic Jordan, truly envious of the Probyn connection, and here she is!


Hallo Bevan,
Thanks for posting this photo of Lady Probyn. If you have the original publication of Country Life, would it be possible to have you copy it in better close-up detail. Alternatively, relay to me the edition number or publication date so that I can pursue the photo and whatever article goes with it inside.
I ask this because I also have an interest in 'things Probyn'.
I have his presentation mameluke gifted to him by the Prince of Wales on his Indian Tour. I can be reached at martin-la@mweb.co.za if that allows easier transmission of material not really related to the General Hope-Grant thread. 
Kindly thanks
Martin

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## Ben Bevan

Martin, email sent, regards Ben.

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## JordanPL

Thought I might update the thread on Hope Grant's sword as I decided to restore the scabbard to it's original finish (as opposed to the black paint it had on) and I believe the result speaks for itself:

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## JordanPL

I was also lucky enough to secure another pre-serial number Wilkinson regimentally marked to the 9th Lancers. Interestingly this one has a Solid Blade and is a truer representation, than Hope Grant's , of the rubbing dated to 1852. Alas no provenance with this one:

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## Ben Bevan

Excellent job on the scabbard Jordan, some might disagree, but I think it's now back to how it should be.

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## JordanPL

Thanks Ben, it has been bothering me for a while now! It really matches the portrait and photo now.

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## Will Mathieson

Jordan just as the scabbard should be.  Any later/modern finishes are not authentic and removal if it doesn't harm is perfectly correct.
Maybe the Grant sword would wish to visit my collection?? I suspect not.
I'm not a fan of over polishing and removing metal but bringing a sword or even a medal (dodge the flak) back to original look as if it were to be worn I think is the best policy. (as long as repeated attempts are not done and conservation has been done to prevent further corrosion and tarnishing)
Always exceptions with highly corroded relics as they appear best left as is. 
I always look for the medals an officer had but I have yet to marry any to a sword I own.

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