# Communities > Modern-era Swords and Collecting Community > Modern Production Katanas >  Tsuka ????

## Joe DAgostino

Ok , i have just taken down my Oni Forge Medium Katana and discovered the below pictured.  I dont know if this is a cracked core or just the two halves.  Also is it general practice to shim the tsuka (with a chopstick)?

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## Keith Larman

That is a cracked core. It is unsafe as it is.

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## Keith Larman

Oh, and I can't even imagine how it would be a good thing to shim a tsuka with a chopstick... If there is *that* much room and it then it gets cracked... Something is seriously wrong. 

Shims are usually thin pieces of wood strips -- think veneer. And with those you want to use a wood like birch for the veneer because it can be crushed a bit and compressed. If you need to take up *that* much empty space the tsuka quite simply doesn't fit and should be redone.

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## Gwyn Mowll

OMG..THAT is SERIOUS !

Get in contact with the supplier ASAP and threaten legal action on account of H&S

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## Keith Larman

> OMG..THAT is SERIOUS !
> 
> Get in contact with the supplier ASAP and threaten legal action on account of H&S


Actually I'd just contact the supplier first and ask them how they will address the problem. Starting with threats of legal action is rarely the start of a pleasant conversation...

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## Karl J

A phone call with the lawyer would cost more that the sword is worth... besides... threatening legal action over a cracked tsuka core is ...  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 


Best to contact who ever you bought it from and see what they will do. The tsuka is unusable as is.

I have never seen a tsuka shimmed with a chop stick before....

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## Timo Qvintus

ouch. thanks for posting this, I'll proceed to check my Oni Shobu's tsuka..

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## Joe DAgostino

thanks guys I thought it was a crack but wanted to make sure.  I got it directly from Loren so it will be a little tough getting a hold of him.  And yes its a "chopstick shim job" the other side acutally has chinese writting from a resturant.  Ill post it up here later.  I can't belive a company like Oni would put this out.  Just think how many people don't take their katanas apart.  Scary!!!

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## Ruud B

lol somebody just had lunch and then he build your tsuka  :Big Grin: 
en forgot to glue to other half of it.

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## Joe DAgostino

Yeah thanks,  Im glad your laughin  :Smilie:  JK.  heres the pic of the chopstick. either that or they were to lazy to throw away their trash after lunch.

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## Keith Larman

I should clarify my wording... I said cracked -- that's not accurate. It looks like the glue seam gave up the ghost. So the glue didn't' hold. But it is not accurate to say the core is "cracked" per se. Unfortunately it goes the entire way under the ito and so the only way to find out if the entire seam is bad is to unwrap the tsukaito. 

But that said, fixing that would be a waste of time if it needed a freaking chopstick to tighten the fit... It doesn't fit correctly to begin with. So repairing and re-wrapping wouldn't make much difference. 

In other words... You need a new tsuka. Completely new. One that fits snugly without the necessity of eating utensil insertion...

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## Andrew Thornton

But imagine the convenience....they forgot to put forks and knives in the bag and all of your silverware is dirty...

Edit: Of course you'd have to buy another sword in order to have a pair of chopsticks...

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## michael wilson

and judging by Lorens habit of poor communication and missing emails you might have a tough time contacting him .

Is this the worst case of poor workmanship yet seen around production tsuka ? 

without the chop stick the blade would fall out of the core  - someone needs a disciplinary at the factory - I hope they are not on piece work and paid by the unit because then they will do almost anything not to have a part rejected  - remember the cheness blade that snapped at the machi ? It had been welded back together and put into stock as new rather than drop a unit of production off quota  - the blade snapped again during a few light swings , same thing here by the looks of it .

that chopstick says to me that someone at Oni's factory does not give a damn about quality at all .

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## Hrvoje Samija

Hello Michael...

Nice new signature...  :Big Grin: 

And problems like these made me buy a PC PK with the tsuka epoxied to the nakago... Yes, I know, it's not traditional, I can't oil under the habaki, but...

Production katana at that price range or lower are crap anyway...
So, it's not going to be a family heirloom... When it rusts, or I get bored with it, I'll do something to it... Probably nasty...  :Big Grin: 

Anyway, in the meantime, I don't have to worry that the tsuka will fail, or how to get decent bamboo mekugi (you have to put in new mekugi every so often, the old ones get worn, especially on cheap production katana where they hold the blade instead of the friction fit between tsuka core and nakago) after taking it apart a few times to clean under habaki...

I wonder, is the new PK (in all it's incarnations) still epoxied, or is it now more traditional and dismantable...?

If only the production katana had a good fit in the tsuka and nakago that was properly worked with a file to give it more grip...

Ah well...  :Ninja Master:

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## michael wilson

Yep I am also seriously sceptical of sub $300 swords for cutting use , Ive gone in the opposite direction to you though and Ive had my two cutting katana remounted from the blade up with hand carved tsuka , full same' , quality fittings etc  - I know it would have been cheaper to just buy MAS or Bugei but ive now got two of my favourite blades mounted in their sunday best :Wink: 

I believe the Oni medium katana is about $399 - $499 which makes that shim :Gag:  an even worse sin  - ok plenty of tsuka are shimmed , its normal practice , but a chopstick - and I bet if you look closely there will be food canker left on it  - why would they have chopsaticks in a sword factory if not to eat with ( shudders ) 

yeah  - ive ressurected the old sig from 05  - its more appropriate 
now than ever  :Wink:

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## Joe DAgostino

Well, Ive still have not contacted Loren yet in reguards to the Chopstick shim or a new Tsuka.  Im still thinking of my options.  I dont really cut with this blade so i might use this as a good starting off point for a project.

  Question for all hope you can help.  I know that this blade is hybrid polished probably to about 800 grit.  I would like to do a hybrid polish to a highter grit 2000-3000 grit then etch the hamon due to Oni's having a lowkey hamon display.  When you guys polish them up what type of wet sandpaper and lubricant do you use?  Also what is the method as far as direction of the strokes and are you polishing the blade on the paper like the traditional way (sort of) or putting the paper to the blade (Bob Villa) way?  Are you using some sort of sanding block?  No one seems to explain this, I know its alot of questions but please help me.  Thanks Again,  you friend the "Chopstick Samurai"

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## Aaron Justice

> But that said, fixing that would be a waste of time if it needed a freaking chopstick to tighten the fit... It doesn't fit correctly to begin with. So repairing and re-wrapping wouldn't make much difference.


My thoughts exactly. I had a production katana with a similar split at the seam. As long as the wood itself isn't compromised, a regluing (I use expoxy frequently to make doubly sure) could be a remedy, but it would need to be rewrapped to make sure. In fact I would have done a full rayskin wrap if it were mine to make ULTRA sure that doesn't happen again. When I can I have the rayskin go under the fuchi so even the mouth of the tsuka cure is bound in rayskin.

What no one has mentioned is that the chopstick might have been the CAUSE of the split. The same tsuka core I fixed had a large shim in it (a bamboo splint) and out of curiosity I mounted it without the shim. No problems at all, perhaps the shim was put in for no reason or was put on the wrong tsuka, I had a tight fit. I would see if it can be mounted without the chopstick shim, or with a much smaller one. It probably still requires a little shimming, but perhaps the chopstick forced the core apart.

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## michael wilson

Actually Loren would not have been aware of this at all and he probably as much as anyone will want to get to the bottom of how and why this happened .

I take back what I said about Lorens Communication issue's  - he's obviously on the ball again now as I sent a mail to him the other day and got a reply in less that 36 hours so he's obviously back to running at full steam - 

you need to contact Loren anyway so he can investigate this at the forge end and ensure a repeat never happens again as its a health and safety issue  - you sort of have an obligation to let the vendor know just like he is obligated to make good on your tsuka .

Mick

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## Timo Qvintus

...and then there was two:



My Oni Shobu tsuka is bust. Totally bust. It's cracked at the very top of the tsuka, and from there on the glue has given up as far down the seam as I can see. It is painfully obvious that this is a "one-size-fits-all" tsuka-core. As this is a second-hand sword (previous owner didn't use it for anything other than display) I can't really do much about it, but I'm *SO* through with production swords.. At least the ones in "factory"-koshirae.  :Mad:

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## Joe DAgostino

sorry and happy for your discovery

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## Timo Qvintus

> sorry and happy for your discovery


Yeah, I'm glad I uncovered this before I took the sword into actual use. Removing the tsuka was a pain too, since it was apparently hammered on. 

How do I know it's a "one-size-fits-all" tsuka-core? When I squeeze the top of the tsuka and the cracked halves are together, the width of the nakago-ana is 6mm, and the nakago that should go in is 7,5mm..  :Ninja Master:

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## R.C.Goetz

While from a 300$ sword this is still unacceptable.                                                         :Confused:  The chopstick is to much.Talk about adding insult to injury,very sad.

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## michael wilson

How many Hanwei Paul Chen tsuka have you heard of cracking like this ? at the seams or panel inlet ? or anywhere ? 

I cant think of a single one , not one , what mkes this so special is consider the number of Paul Chen katana that have been sold in the last 8 or 9 years , it must be many thousands of especially the low to mid range lines  - ever heard of a musashi daito or a wind and thunder core cracking in half like this ? me neither .

is it any wonder why hanwei and paul chen continue to be the market leader by a big margin .

new guys on the block like cheness and oni have already got lines of product obsolete and discontinued like the kanbei and ukigumo but hanwei are still making upgraded versions of the same swords they were making 9 years ago  - shinto , musashi , golden oriole etc 

maybe these tsuka failings are a symptom of a brand trying to offer too many variants too soon 
without first  getting there bread and butter lines 
as close to refined as production swords can get .

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## Tom Kehoe

... but I'm *SO* through with production swords.. At least the ones in "factory"-koshirae.  :Mad: [/QUOTE]

don't be so quick to dump all production swords together. The tsuka on my Bugei bamboo fits perfectly.  

It might be worth pointing out that in the law there is a doctrine known as the warrant of usability. It basically requires that something be fit to be used for the purpose for which it is advertised. A sword shimmed with a chopstick cannot be safely used for its intended purpose. 

tk

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## Timo Qvintus

> don't be so quick to dump all production swords together. The tsuka on my Bugei bamboo fits perfectly.


My angst towards production swords goes beyond tsuka-issues.. I got the Shobu just out of curiosity (and because it was so cheap), and that proved to be the last drop that causes the overflow. With a quick overseeing I can spot half-a-dozen flaws in it, and another half-a-dozen small things I'd have done differently if I was the manufacturer that would have made this a much more appealing (rather than appalling) sword. I know, it's just a $200 sword, but why make things wrong on purpose?

Regarding Hanwei's tsuka, indeed I have not heard of a broken tsuka yet. Nor have I ever seen any inspected, including my Orchid (I haven't bothered to disassemble it because I only display it for now). And as an aside, I hate the axe-handle shape that (all?) Hanwei katana have.

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## Tom Kehoe

> I know, it's just a $200 sword, but why make things wrong on purpose?
> . And as an aside, I hate the axe-handle shape that (all?) Hanwei katana have.


While there is an amazing perversity of spirit among people, I don't think the chitana craftsmen sit around and say, "now how can we further screw up this sword?"  But I could be wrong....    

I think they simply take as many shortcuts as possible, because speed is the name of the game. 

tk

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## michael wilson

while I sympathise with Timo on a lot of his points its always going to come back to the cliche' of "you get what you pay for " easily the most flogged to death truth on these boards , 

if your buying what you expect to be a functional sword for $200 you have to expect the half dozen or so flaws Timo mentioned , its just not possible economically to build a functional sword mounted to a performance standard , decent build quality and qc checked for 200 bucks no matter how cheap the labour is , not if you want all the trimmings with your turkey of real same' tight even and uniform hineri maki , a decent finish on the blade etc . 

unless you buy KC who,s swords have none of those fancies  :Big Grin: 

if you sit and think about it its laughable that we 
complain bitterly when our $200 sword is anything less than perfect , hell man  - we are outraged and scream about asymetrical ito maki ,
cosmetic yokotes and poor bohi termination 

what we should be thinking is that "some people spend that on a decent tsuba " 

although IMO a cracked tsuka is unforgiveable on anything but the most obvious and cheaply made wall hanger  - the issues I mentioned above dont compromise use or jeapordize safety liked a cracked core most certainly does .

Mick

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## Joe DAgostino

Mike I agree with what you say but I would expect a $400-$500 price range Katana to be safe enough to cut with.  Most of the reasons for a highly priced production blade are due to polish and fittings, no?  Don't most of these start out as $400-$500 swords then go up from there.  My point being i would still expect the foundation to be good from the start.  I would not however expect it to be the most beautiful sword.  I know its off topic but I got excited so excuse me.  I have some pics from Aaron Justice who is doing one of his fingerstone polishes on my Dynasty Forge Tri-Folded Katana.  I thought I would share them,  Aaron stated that he still has some work yet and touching up to do but i am extremely impressed as of now just from the pictures.
***Aaron, If you check this post hope your not mad at me for the pre-mature post of your work.

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## Timo Qvintus

was the hamon straight suguha? unless it was something's wrong with that polish.. although it may be just the work-in-progress nature of the pictures.

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## Aaron Justice

> was the hamon straight suguha? unless it was something's wrong with that polish.. although it may be just the work-in-progress nature of the pictures.


Timo, I know you've been around long enough to have seen a lot of hamons polished in a suguha fashion. I know I've seen my share.

http://japaneseswords.gotdns.com/pro...e/masahide.jpg

I can't find the picture but there was a Gendaito polished by Brandon Thell done in a similar fashion. This one will be more of a notare-suguha when finished.

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## Timo Qvintus

> Timo, I know you've been around long enough to have seen a lot of hamons polished in a suguha fashion. I know I've seen my share.
> 
> http://japaneseswords.gotdns.com/pro...e/masahide.jpg
> 
> I can't find the picture but there was a Gendaito polished by Brandon Thell done in a similar fashion. This one will be more of a notare-suguha when finished.


Right you are. I just got suspicious since very few production swords actually have a suguha hamon..

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## Aaron Justice

I'm actually trying some stuff I've never done before with this one. I still have a little bit more cleaning to even some of it out, but what's pictured is about an 80% finished product. This blade has a very strong and active habuchi, and often times hazuya will cover over it to a good degree, so I've been experimenting a bit to get it to show up a bit more. Still haven't hit nugui yet.

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## Timo Qvintus

> while I sympathise with Timo on a lot of his points its always going to come back to the cliche' of "you get what you pay for"


Not true. I've gotten worse value for my buck from a $400 sword than a $50 sword, I've got a $1200 MSRP sword for $500 (-ish) which is in the same price range as the sword that started this thread, hell I could get a nihonto for less than $700! After all the glowing reviews OF has received over the years on SFI I expected more than blatant negligence from even their lower end products. As I mentioned, I bought the Shobu out of curiosity to see a live shobu-zukuri (well, an imitation of shobu-zukuri, but anyway..). After all, the OF Shobu was developed with a lot of input from SFI back when Loren used to post around here (back in 2005 I think it was?), so I had *some* hopes that I might get some level of bang for buck. I didn't. Lesson learned.

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## Keith Larman

> SNIP
> 
> When I can I have the rayskin go under the fuchi so even the mouth of the tsuka cure is bound in rayskin.
> 
> SNIP


Just a quick note. I've never seen that done on antiques short of someone retrofitting an existing tsuka (i.e., putting on a much thicker tsuba so the core is trimmed pushing the fuchi "down" the tsuka a bit to compensate). I was taught that getting a clean, consistent fit under the fuchi is more important than any additional strength offered by samekawa wrap underneath it. In other words, sacrifices made to do that aren't worth any perceived benefit. The idea is to spend a lot of time making sure the fuchi fits snuggly and consistently to the wood. Here you are allowing a solid piece of metal to support the wood (which is pretty darned tough). But getting a snug, clean, and fully in contact fit is a lot harder to do if the fuchi is going over samekawa. And doing that also means that you're probably not inletting the samekawa quite correctly for a properly shaped and dimensioned final wrapping given the fittings. Sometimes the samekawa sits a bit lower than the inner edge of the fuchi depending on the thickness of the fuchi walls, the thickness of the compressed ito to be used, etc. And given the variability of material thickness (doeskin and leather are a lot thicker than silk for instance) you're not adjusting the dimensions to what the final tsuka should look like. You'll likely either end up with a final wrapped tsuka that is a bit too thick side to side, especially if you're using thicker ito. So the overall shaping suffers a bit and there really isn't an improvement functionally assuming it was carved correctly to begin with.

There is very little that was done for any reason other than function first. And especially if it is something that wouldn't be visible... Why would a craftsman of old *not* do something like that when the tsuka is already expertly carved, fit with a gorgeous full samekawa wrap and done up with superb fittings? So when you see something that *wasn't done* that *could* have easily been done, you need to ask why they didn't...

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## Keith Larman

> Not true. I've gotten worse value for my buck from a $400 sword than a $50 sword, I've got a $1200 MSRP sword for $500 (-ish) which is in the same price range as the sword that started this thread, hell I could get a nihonto for less than $700! After all the glowing reviews OF has received over the years on SFI I expected more than blatant negligence from even their lower end products. As I mentioned, I bought the Shobu out of curiosity to see a live shobu-zukuri (well, an imitation of shobu-zukuri, but anyway..). After all, the OF Shobu was developed with a lot of input from SFI back when Loren used to post around here (back in 2005 I think it was?), so I had *some* hopes that I might get some level of bang for buck. I didn't. Lesson learned.


The reality is that it is a question of expectations. I've seen $50 swords that I thought were a great bang for the buck. But that's like saying I was really impressed with the taste of a 50 cents hamburger. 50 cents is cheap so it wouldn't take much to be impressive. In other words... it's still a cheap burger. 

The problem is that people seem to be expecting filet mignon quality for "meat-by-products" pricing. 

People always talk about cost with respect to fittings. They assume the cost is because the fittings cost more. The overwhelming majority of cost of an entry level blade is due to the labor and skill that goes into doing it right. When it takes me weeks to polish and mount a single sword there will be a base-level of cost involved. The Chinese importers have dirt cheap labor. But even then the cost of training their labor, keeping them trained, the cost of someone designing their swords that knows what they're doing, etc. are all not being paid. So yes, the only costs on most of these cheap swords is in fact the fittings. And it wouldn't matter if they used the nicest fittings ever made -- the quality of the worksmanship is the problem. That's where the cost starts. 

Of course combine quality workmanship with quality parts and the price will go up quickly. I cannot even remember the last time I bought a tsuba for less than $350. Heck, I've bought single rayskins that cost more than many of these swords. And I charge over $750 just to do a custom saya as a starting point. Why? It takes me a long time to do it right. 

It all depends on your point of view. And I'm one of those guys who has long advocated production swords for newbies -- I think they are a great resource and provide an easier entree into these martial arts and craft arts. However... The bar keeps getting pushed lower. So there is now quite a range of quality (and cost) in production swords. Some vendors work really hard to keep prices low but sacrifice quality to get there. Others work hard to maintain quality at a certain level and let the price be what it has to be in order to do that. 

There is a butt for every seat as they say. Just make sure you're buying what you're buying with your eyes wide open. And don't fool yourself into thinking that slice of spam is just as good as that filet mignon. Sure, both have calories and food value. But beyond that there really is a substantial difference in taste, quality and enjoyment. You don't get many cuts from the tenderloin. What you do get is great. And the further you get away from the higher quality cuts the less it costs...

Geez, now I'm hungry...  :Wink:  And I need to put on my thermals and go polish... I really need to insulate my workshop one of these days.

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## Timo Qvintus

Hmm.. a bad choice of words on my part, perhaps. What I meant was I'd rather have paid $400 for the $50 sword than the other way around. I had what I thought were quite realistic expectations of what an Oni Forge product would be like (I've read back dozens of reviews of their products dating back years and years), and those expectations were not met. This has (finally!) lead me to believe that the world of production swords has nothing to offer for me. I end up paying a lot for a cheap sword with all the shipping costs, taxes, importing honoki for a new tsuka, buying ito and same-gawa, initial and maintenance costs of my tools etc. Not to mention the time consumed to actually do all that stuff. If I buy a project-sword (bare blade or something I know I'm gonna redo) that's fine. But I'm done doing it out of necessity..  :Wink: 

To go along with your culinary analogy, I don't expect to be asked to provide and prepare the meat myself if I pay for a steak in a restaurant.  :Big Grin:  But enough about me, let's get this thread back on-topic shall we?

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## Aaron Justice

Some interesting thoughts. I've never been able to inspect a dismantled nihonto tsuka core.

For the most part there are two reasons I would do it. First up, many of us have had production swords where the fuchi will shift around a bit. Short of creating a new tsuka core for it there are two things I can do to at least help remedy the problem. The first and easy one is to bind the fuchi end of the tsuka in tape. I'm under no illusions the tape is actually helping bind the core together, but at the very least it allows for a snug fit and helps prevent any splitting of the wood core because there is now no extra gap under the fuchi. Only paper based tapes that are non compressable, no plastic or electrical tapes of course. That's the cheap, easy, done for free method I have used.

The second is doing the rayskin under the fuchi. I do not remove excess material from the tsuka core in order to do a full wrap under the fuchi, I go the other way around.



After I have reshaped the core by chiseling off the original panel inlets and the extra amount on the ha and mune sides, I added the full wrap which also goes directly over the fuchi area. Once dried, the rayskin is too thick to put the fuchi back on, so I have to sand it down with a dremel tool (carefully measured so I don't go down too far of course) until the fuchi does fit, which usually means I have to go almost all the way down to the rawhide portion. Once it has a tight fit then I concentrate on the rest of the tsuka and the wrap.




It worked well in this case as it is perfectly flush to the fuchi. You're right that in this case it wouldn't have worked with leather or suede, but before I do any rayskin wrap I always check to see how thick the ito is and how thick the hide is before getting started.




> Just a quick note. I've never seen that done on antiques short of someone retrofitting an existing tsuka (i.e., putting on a much thicker tsuba so the core is trimmed pushing the fuchi "down" the tsuka a bit to compensate). I was taught that getting a clean, consistent fit under the fuchi is more important than any additional strength offered by samekawa wrap underneath it. In other words, sacrifices made to do that aren't worth any perceived benefit. The idea is to spend a lot of time making sure the fuchi fits snuggly and consistently to the wood. Here you are allowing a solid piece of metal to support the wood (which is pretty darned tough). But getting a snug, clean, and fully in contact fit is a lot harder to do if the fuchi is going over samekawa. And doing that also means that you're probably not inletting the samekawa quite correctly for a properly shaped and dimensioned final wrapping given the fittings. Sometimes the samekawa sits a bit lower than the inner edge of the fuchi depending on the thickness of the fuchi walls, the thickness of the compressed ito to be used, etc. And given the variability of material thickness (doeskin and leather are a lot thicker than silk for instance) you're not adjusting the dimensions to what the final tsuka should look like. You'll likely either end up with a final wrapped tsuka that is a bit too thick side to side, especially if you're using thicker ito. So the overall shaping suffers a bit and there really isn't an improvement functionally assuming it was carved correctly to begin with.
> 
> There is very little that was done for any reason other than function first. And especially if it is something that wouldn't be visible... Why would a craftsman of old *not* do something like that when the tsuka is already expertly carved, fit with a gorgeous full samekawa wrap and done up with superb fittings? So when you see something that *wasn't done* that *could* have easily been done, you need to ask why they didn't...

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## Alan Sinder

How deep was that cut Aaron? Ouch! 

I'm curious - as shark and ray skin may not always be the right choice, what other material makes sense.

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## Aaron Justice

> How deep was that cut Aaron? Ouch! 
> 
> I'm curious - as shark and ray skin may not always be the right choice, what other material makes sense.


A reminder to always pay attention to what you're doing. I was switching hands while holding an Oni Forge katana... needless to say when it slipped it found my left hand.

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## Jerry G.

> And as an aside, I hate the axe-handle shape that (all?) Hanwei katana have.


The Green Bamboo Snake katana I used to have before it found its way to J-H, AJ and __?__ was quite slim and had a very nice ryugo waisted shape.  See below how it tapers compared to the more straight Bushido tsuka.

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## michael wilson

Maybe our UK economy has clouded my mind with regards to low end swords , hmm maybe !

Over here $200 is approx £100 GB and prices being what they are in the UK £100 buys nothing but the most cheaply made masahiro 

hell man, a PPK over here costs $400  - so personally speaking we learn not to expect much at all for our $200/£100 as far as a user swords go.

still though Joe's sword was sold to him as suitable for cutting with
and he has huge cause to complain just on the strength of how poorly the rework on the tsuka was from a health and safety issue.

have you spoken with Loren yet Joe ?

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## R.C.Goetz

The tsuka picture I posted,was from a DF,G2 tamashigiri kat.Now because I only paid 300$ for it,should not mean I'm going to be all right with the fact the tsuka is sub-par.And telling me you can spend more on a tsuba doesn't help.I have friends with very expensive cars,good for them,but when I bought my inexpensive car, I still expect it to go down the road as advertised.And no I didn't try to cut down a tree or abuse the sword in any way shape or form.To suggest other whys is elitist and dismissive.

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## Remy B

While i understood your whole food nutriments analogy Keith, and while i also keep in mind that you get what you pay for... this isnt all about taste in this case but about safety, looks like his Spam slice was poisonous! :O

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## Keith Larman

> The tsuka picture I posted,was from a DF,G2 tamashigiri kat.Now because I only paid 300$ for it,should not mean I'm going to be all right with the fact the tsuka is sub-par.And telling me you can spend more on a tsuba doesn't help.I have friends with very expensive cars,good for them,but when I bought my inexpensive car, I still expect it to go down the road as advertised.And no I didn't try to cut down a tree or abuse the sword in any way shape or form.To suggest other whys is elitist and dismissive.


I was simply trying to explain the larger picture from my experience working in production swords as well as hopefully give some perspective as to where the cost of a sword comes into play. So best of luck to everyone involved and I hope you're all able to resolve your issues.

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## Benjamin P.

> The tsuka picture I posted,was from a DF,G2 tamashigiri kat.Now because I only paid 300$ for it,should not mean I'm going to be all right with the fact the tsuka is sub-par.And telling me you can spend more on a tsuba doesn't help.I have friends with very expensive cars,good for them,but when I bought my inexpensive car, I still expect it to go down the road as advertised.And no I didn't try to cut down a tree or abuse the sword in any way shape or form.To suggest other whys is elitist and dismissive.


No offense, R.C., but it seems like car analogies don't really work here.  Anyway, I think $300 for a sword is pretty much guaranteed to get you a sub-par tsuka...  Although I'm pretty much a n00b myself, the more I learn about this craft, the more I understand how and why it's simply not possible to get a good product for relatively so little money...  a new tsuka made by Fred Lohman, for example, will cost $450.  And that's just the handle made the right way... which is supposed to be time-consuming because a tsuka is supposed to be made for that specific blade with care and attention.  There's no way that a mass-produced product, made in a hurry and with poor material and attention to detail without any actual formal training can ever compete with that kind of quality.  

I don't think anyone is trying to be elitist here... just realistic.  I really like SFI because it seems like almost everyone here is really friendly and helpful.  Personally these days, I'm just trying to learn about one part of the sword at a time... starting with the habaki.  And holy cow!  There's a lot involved in just that one piece of metal... and I can totally see now why it's so important and why that piece alone definitely should easily cost $250~300+ even without artistic embellishments.  

Before I found this forum, I thought that a sword is a sword and all the rest of $ spent on art swords and custom swords was just vanity and appearances... for "brand-name" sakes... but now thankfully I know better....

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## michael wilson

The last thing SFI or its users need is a man of keiths experience and standing in the sword community ducking out of threads due to heavy handed comments .... not good .

If your happy with your $300 sword fine , I am pleased some people still are , the majority of us aspire to something better though and our tastes evolve over time along with our experience .

not elitism and dismissive I hope .. just a gauge of where some people are at with their swords and cold hard truths about production katana .

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## R.C.Goetz

Hey ,enjoy yourselves.Far be it for me to state an opinion.

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## Mat Rous

> No offense, R.C., but it seems like car analogies don't really work here.  Anyway, I think $300 for a sword is pretty much guaranteed to get you a sub-par tsuka


The important thing to remember is that it was advertised as "Tameshigiri" blade. It's misleading advertising. Buying a shinken is a matter of trust as you have to pay for something you've probably not seen. You expect it to do what it is advertised for. 

I'm not talking about "Battle ready'. The usage of the word "Tameshigiri" implies that they understand the term. To supply something substandard to the task (Whatever the cost) becomes an ethical issue for the supplier.

It's a difficult issue but needs to be spoken about if safety and knowledge sharing is to be fostered on sites such as this. Tough love.

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## Remy B

Sushi sword... you can chop your sushi and eat it with the chopstick! :O

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## Chris Sheaffer

Oops, meant to start a new thread.

Many apologies-

Chris

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## Tom Lim

> The important thing to remember is that it was advertised as "Tameshigiri" blade. It's misleading advertising. Buying a shinken is a matter of trust as you have to pay for something you've probably not seen. You expect it to do what it is advertised for. 
> 
> I'm not talking about "Battle ready'. The usage of the word "Tameshigiri" implies that they understand the term. To supply something substandard to the task (Whatever the cost) becomes an ethical issue for the supplier.
> 
> It's a difficult issue but needs to be spoken about if safety and knowledge sharing is to be fostered on sites such as this. Tough love.



The funny thing about advertising is that the catch phrases could have changed because the public is now becoming more educated about swords. This is a definite truth from 15 years ago when things were still called "battle ready". Today it just seems that they just changed "battle ready" to "Tameshigiri" just to get interest.

I know that the old phrase "you get what you pay for" is echoed through out the Forums here, but it is true. The one thing that really sucks about you guys dropping your money on the swords is the fact that you don't get to see them before they arrive on your doorstep. I think that is an important aspect to buying a sword, any sword in general. But in the age of the Internet, distrubutors just put a picture up and cast the line.

And guys, we should be thankful that guys like Keith Larman is taking there time to offer opinions and answer questions here. We should be happy that Rick Barrett will pop in from time to time so we can pick his brain. So lets be more inviting guys. Guys like Keith and Rick should really be appreciated.

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## michael wilson

aspersions are not , no one here is elitist or dismissive 

and Mr Goetz  - we do value your opinion so please dont think its not wanted , your input is as valid as anyones  - you just have to remember that one of the focus's of SFI is to help people evolve as collectors to appreciate art swords and swords that are the pinnacle of the custom smiths proffession as well as to promote the swordsmiths art and craft as opposed to just indulging the ever growing production sword market . 

so please elaborate on your cracked tsuka issue  - its the first DF
tsuka failure I have heard of  :Smilie: 

Mick

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## Timo Qvintus

> The tsuka picture I posted,was from a DF,G2 tamashigiri kat.Now because I only paid 300$ for it,should not mean I'm going to be all right with the fact the tsuka is sub-par.And telling me you can spend more on a tsuba doesn't help.I have friends with very expensive cars,good for them,but when I bought my inexpensive car, I still expect it to go down the road as advertised.And no I didn't try to cut down a tree or abuse the sword in any way shape or form.To suggest other whys is elitist and dismissive.


Do you still have that tsuka-core? Would you mind splitting it in two along the ha- and mune-seams with a chisel or a knife? I'd love to see how the nakago-inletting has been done on a DF tsuka. The split-picture could also give us clues as to why it cracked in the first place.

Some have mentioned how "tameshigiri" is the new sales pitch hot-word. Now, on eBay I would understand it, and even expect it. But from an established sword production company like Dynasty Forge? I mean, really?

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## R.C.Goetz

Well reading my post I can see I was rude.I apologize,that's not my way.But it is very frustrating to purchase something on trust,only to be burned in the deal.I did alot of research on this before my purchase.Alot of it here on SFI and I knew I wasn't getting a art blade.Just a good katana like sword,for as little money as possible.I was willing to give up all the aesthetics and perks of a real katana,For something functional.Now just a few months and 3 beach mats down the road all I have is a white elephant.I will fix this,the blade is good steel and cuts nicely.But think of this,I checked and cleaned this sword after every cutting session.Good thing,but how many others are out there swinging what they think is a "good" low end sword,when it's just a accident waiting to happen.And does DF use the same Tsuka core on there high end swords?I'll see about splitting the core after I have my new one made.I'm going to send it to my guy as is for inspection.Mr.Larson,again I am sorry to have been rude,your work and approach to it are spot on.

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## michael wilson

Even though your sword was under $500 you still should not have a cracked tsuka cutting beach mats with a blade marketed as a cutter  - Do DF give a warranty against any breakages under normal use with their blades ?

Mick

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## Timo Qvintus

> Even though your sword was under $500 you still should not have a cracked tsuka cutting beach mats with a blade marketed as a cutter  - Do DF give a warranty against any breakages under normal use with their blades ?
> 
> Mick


How long ago did you buy it?

"45 days from the date of invoice: Dynasty Forge Inc. will provide repair or replacement (to be determined at our discretion) against manufacturer’s defects in workmanship or material only."
http://www.dynastyforge.com/about/terms.php

EDIT: Nice warranty, BTW, an European buyer (for example) wouldn't even have received the item in 45 days from date of invoice..

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## Keith Larman

Guys, dont' get me wrong, I fully understand disappointment and frustration with these things. 

FWIW a bunch of years ago I was asked if I could drive down to Bugei for a meeting (it's about 120 miles away and traffic is often terrible so I'm usually not in much mood to just "drop by"). Anyway, a Chinese vendor wanted to show us some swords they were trying to introduce into the US market. They were hoping Bugei would carry them. Well, I got down there along with Ted Tenold and we saw these new swords. The blades were somewhat unconventional in shaping, rather flat ground, and a bit thin. Nothing terrible, but not all that great either. But the mounts... Terrible. Misfit habaki, poorly fit (and shimmed) tsuka, poorly cast fittings with sharp edges, atrocious tsukamaki, and the ito looked like it was scavenged from recycled shoes... At this point a few people had already done some cutting with them and commented that they cut mats well (which wasn't surprising given how thin and flat they were). Both Ted and I had the feeling everyone there was hoping we'd like them. We didn't. We went through a long list of problems and what sort of long term results those problems would have. Handle loosening almost immediately. Tsukamaki coming apart. Ripped up hands. Unsafe mounts. Poorly fit saya being problematic for training. Also concerns were raised that the overly thin and flat blades would easily take damage in the hands of the inexperienced or in the hands of someone cutting something a bit harder like bamboo or thicker targets. So our opinion was very low of these things and we listed out everything we felt needed improving. The Chinese vendors hoping to break into the US market smiled, nodded a lot, said they'd take care of it and went away apparently quite happy. We just shrugged and told Bugei "let's see if they can fix the issues". 

Months later we go down again for "version 2". Basically nothing was fixed. Same stuff. No changes. And right around that time an individual had started selling "unusual" sugata swords at pretty low prices. We started by pointing out that the vendors had asked Bugei to be an "exclusive" partner but we were seeing the exact same swords, fittings and mounts on another website already. Then we came to point number 2 -- nothing had been fixed. They were in our opinion just as shoddy, poorly made, poorly fit, and basically unusable as they were before. They smiled, said they would look into who was 'stealing' their designs, said they'd fix the issues, and that was basically the last we ever heard about it. 

There are now a lot of people selling swords that look an awful lot like those swords. Tsuka design, habaki design, mounting methods, fittings quality, etc. These swords got a lot of really positive press on forums like these when they first came out. And it reminded me of what I had told Bugei way back when -- they'll be popular at first but then the problems will start to manifest. The corners cut to make things inexpensive and feel tight when new will rapidly devolve into failures and flaws. 

Anyway, the point here is that there is a lot of noise out there. Lots of "reviews" on forums like these by people who know very little about swords. It is great that there are enthusiastic people willing to share their experiences. But you have to filter their enthusiasm and look more deeply.

When I was asked my opinion about these swords it was solely from the point of view of whether they will be usable and reasonably safe as weapons in JSA training. We felt they were a long way off from the mark. Others apparently didn't agree and began selling them. And with lots of positive press and reviews on forums like this, well, they're going to sell. So some of us try to educate a bit more to help people understand the forces, the tensions, etc. in building these things. And how complex it really can end up being to make a good sword. And how that complexity translates into a base cost that is quite literally necessary in order to make a solid sword. If you're trying to do a traditional style mount, well, it takes not only quality materials but the skill and time to do it right. That translates into cost. 

Bugei was hoping to find another line of swords they could sell in good conscience at a lower price range. But after over a decade doing this they have yet to find ones that meet their goals. They may be out there, but I haven't seen them yet. Now we all understand that those goals are not everyone's goals, so your mileage may vary. And I think there is a butt for every seat as they say. But for training, cutting, etc. there are some pretty high hurdles that need to be cleared in terms of quality and construction.

On the separate issue of how inexpensive blades are sold and how they are positioned as usability goes... Well, that's something you need to discuss with them. As I said I recommended against them when Bugei asked me about them. So they passed. But a lot have been sold since by other vendors. And I'm sure some of them have been just fine -- there was a sort of hit/miss feeling with many of them once you got past some of the less than stellar decisions made in how they were done. I'm sure some are just fine. But others were spectacularly wrong. And it only takes one... 

Later, gotta get focused on my work. Taxes coming and I need to figure out how to pay for the kid's summer camp she wants to do... Signing off for a while...

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## michael wilson

many thanks Keith  - a very enlightening look at part of what goes 
on "behind the scenes" as it where .

Knowing Bugei Tradings High standards this comes as no surprise -

 I can only imagine that other lesser, more unscrupulous vendors must have been rubbing their hands and counting their mark up when they inspected the swords in question. 

I keep saying it lately but Bugei and Paul Chen are definitely out there as the front runners with everyone playing catch up . 

plus theres a host of swords that match them in price but fall way down in  quality .

just my opinion and two pennies worth  :Wink:

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## michael wilson

> How long ago did you buy it?
> 
> "45 days from the date of invoice: Dynasty Forge Inc. will provide repair or replacement (to be determined at our discretion) against manufacturers defects in workmanship or material only."
> http://www.dynastyforge.com/about/terms.php
> 
> EDIT: Nice warranty, BTW, an European buyer (for example) wouldn't even have received the item in 45 days from date of invoice..


This is so true  - what with International shipping, delays , customs inspections , added VAT inspections etc  - we would be really lucky to get a sword delivered within that warranty . 

Timo  - are you in the same boat where by if you do buy a sword from the US you get for import duty by your own customs guys ?

I recently imported a wakizashi and a remounted musashi tsuka  - the whole lot was covered by $500 shipping insurance and I got stung for £50 GB import duty  :Embarrassment: 

Mick

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## Timo Qvintus

> This is so true  - what with International shipping, delays , customs inspections , added VAT inspections etc  - we would be really lucky to get a sword delivered within that warranty . 
> 
> Timo  - are you in the same boat where by if you do buy a sword from the US you get for import duty by your own customs guys ?
> 
> I recently imported a wakizashi and a remounted musashi tsuka  - the whole lot was covered by $500 shipping insurance and I got stung for £50 GB import duty 
> 
> Mick


That's the thing here too.. Surface mail is the only economically reasonable way to get a sword from US to Finland, and it takes about 45-60 days *at least* to arrive. And then there's the customs. A $200 sword from US with another $40-60 for s&h amounts to a $300+ sword when I get my hands on it. If there's something wrong with it I need to send it back that's another $50 I'll never see again. Then the second sword comes, and again I have to pay taxes for it's customs-declared value (it doesn't matter that I didn't pay for it this time), plus, again, s&h. Now I have a (hopefully) functional $200 sword and I've paid $500+ for it. Try the same math with a $700 sword, or a $1000+ sword. This is why I don't do production swords anymore. It's simply not worth the trouble.

Incidentally, when I got swords with cracked tsuka I didn't send 'em back, I disintegrate the bloody things as anger-management and start building new ones..  :Wink:

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## Joe DAgostino

Sorry it took so long but i finally contacted Loren in reference to this matter and he emailed me back a few hours later which was a surprise.  He responded first with an agreement that this was not correct and sometimes new craftsman take shortcuts which should not happen.  He offered to make good by swaping the Tsuka out.  I cant really ask for anyhting more, so Im pleased.  Now if i could just get the Hamon to show a little more on this Oni forge I would be really happy.

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## Timo Qvintus

> Sorry it took so long but i finally contacted Loren in reference to this matter and he emailed me back a few hours later which was a surprise.  He responded first with an agreement that this was not correct and sometimes new craftsman take shortcuts which should not happen.  He offered to make good by swaping the Tsuka out.  I cant really ask for anyhting more, so Im pleased.  Now if i could just get the Hamon to show a little more on this Oni forge I would be really happy.


Waitaminute, "swapping the tsuka"? I hope he means "crafting a new tsuka for the blade" (which you will naturally have to send back to them).. otherwise you'll just get a new one-size-fits-all tsuka-core that's gonna crack sooner or later, with or without the shims.

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## michael wilson

Timo mate  - bloody hilarious image of you busting open cracked tsuka to relieve stress LOL

I too hope Loren does not mean a straight swap tsuka for tsuka  - 
thats how some people like Jim Anestasi eneded up going through 3 
one size fits all tsuka before Skip stepped in . 

The blade needs returning and a new core fitted to that particular blade  - or the entire sword replacing .

I know when DGuertin swords were up and running daryl would lend 
his customers a loaner sword so they had something to use while their own sword was in the shop  - a great idea IMO. 

Mick

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## Timo Qvintus

If I was rolling in cash you know what I'd do? I'd get a low-end and a high-end sword from each and every manufacturer there is and bust every single one of those tsuka in half, and post what I've found here on SFI. I find it hard to believe that each PPK (for example) has a custom fit tsuka at the price they're selling and the volume that's been made.. yet we don't get many "my PPK's tsuka cracked" threads, which either means that Hanwei has found a way to do half-decent job for very little money or that PPK-owners don't check their tsuka for cracks.

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## michael wilson

as the title says , I bet there's loads .

Aaron Justice has remounted about 60  different chen katana 
obviously not all different but I dont recall him mentioning a cracked core , 

maybe they have strict guidlines for nakago dimensions and the amount of inletting for the core  - or they might number the component parts like some KC models have - so the right blade is matched to the right core , its all speculation though  :Wink: 

I guess Paul Chens QC control standards have filtered down from the Bugei stuff as many hoped it would .

Mick

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## Joe DAgostino

Timo, honestly thats what it sounds like he wants to do with it.  I agree with you on having future problems but I doubt he's going to cut a new tsuka for me.

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## Aaron Justice

> as the title says , I bet there's loads .
> 
> Aaron Justice has remounted about 60  different chen katana 
> obviously not all different but I dont recall him mentioning a cracked core , 
> 
> maybe they have strict guidlines for nakago dimensions and the amount of inletting for the core  - or they might number the component parts like some KC models have - so the right blade is matched to the right core , its all speculation though 
> 
> I guess Paul Chens QC control standards have filtered down from the Bugei stuff as many hoped it would .
> 
> Mick



Actually, in about 60 swords (has it been that many? Geez...) or so, lost track of the actual number, I have faced a few Chen tsuka issues. The main issue has always been loose fit. A loose tsuka can be shimmed, and obviously if it is loose you can assume there wasn't any stress to force the core apart. One was a practical plus tanto that had so bad a fit it required about 4 shims, two on each side, to have it in their solid. 

I also HAVE seen a split Chen tsuka core, 2 in fact, but like some of the other cores I've seen they were split at the seam. In fact the original Kami katana I had, the nakago was bent to the side slightly. I had to dimount it, place it on a chair and hold it down, and with my other hand apply pressure to the nakago to straighten it. It worked, but for their highest (back then) in their line, that's something they should have spotted.

Of the 15 or 18 or so Dynasty katanas I have customized, I also found 2 with split seams. Of course you can't multiply that upwards and say Dynasty has a 4x failure rate as these are small samples.

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## Keith Larman

FWIW I've seen only a very small number of cracked tsuka on the swords I inspect for Bugei. It is a pretty easy decision when you find one -- I reject the entire sword. Most of the time it is because the core was just a hair loose and they put in a single shim that was simply a bit too thick and then jammed the nakago back in at the factory. Regardless of why it was cracked, the entire sword is sent back to China for a new tsuka. 

But I haven't seen one in a while now that I think about it...

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## Michael P

> One was a practical plus tanto that had so bad a fit it required about 4 shims, two on each side, to have it in their solid.


If you're talking of one of the early PPT you've done where you just polished the blade, that tanto is now on my desk. The shims made it solid enough that it didn't move a millimeter during a cutting session.

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## Keith Larman

Geez, just as I post that I remember why it was bugging me...

I did recently have a very frustrating experience with one of Bugei's high end Wave katana. The guy who was getting the sword had his sword rejected I think 2 times in a row. So here I was looking at number 3 and there was a super light layer of oxidation on the sword. So Bugei asked if I could redo the finish for them and just get this poor guy his sword. So I stripped off the finish and light oxidation and did a light refinish. 

Once the owner got the sword he commented the tsuka felt funny in the wrap and he wanted it rewrapped. It seemed as though a seam in the leather ito (cows are only so big so seams are inevitable) landed right into his hand in an uncomfortable way). Argh. So Bugei asked me to rewrap it. Okay, I pulled it apart, started reshaping a bit and then found that it was just not fit quite right -- close but no cigar. I worked on the bloody thing for a while and finally just told Bugei we should either send it back or just make him a new tsuka. Of course by then we had already repolished the blade, torn the old tsuka apart, cut some new high grade leather tsukaito... 

Long story short by the time I was done the sword had been refinished and had a new custom tsuka with full samekawa wrap, lacquered same', new menuki (why not -- we were redoing it anyway), and new high grade leather. 

Bugei obviously lost a lot of money on that sword.

So no matter how hard you try, things happen. The more important issue imho is how the vendor addresses those problems.

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## Aaron Justice

> If you're talking of one of the early PPT you've done where you just polished the blade, that tanto is now on my desk. The shims made it solid enough that it didn't move a millimeter during a cutting session.


I've owned six of the little buggers... not sure who's went to who...  :Big Grin: 

Good value for the price though, i don't think anyone can deny that.

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## Michael P

> I've owned six of the little buggers... not sure who's went to who...


Even worse from that point of view, it was an indirect purchase and I can't recall who I bought it from in the classifieds here  :Wink:

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## Timo Qvintus

Oh yes, that's probably it - shims. Make a bunch of blades, measure the average nakago dimensions, inlet the nakago-ana of the core with extra space and add shims (probably stock them in variable thickness) that make it fit well to a specific nakago. Sounds feasible, certainly safer than the hammer-on one-size-fits-all solution, yet still cost-efficient.

I wonder, how much cost does a custom-fit tsuka-core made in China add to a sword? I mean, if there's a person or persons dedicated to just that work they can do it in a day, easily. Making a pretty good fit isn't really that hard, once you know the basics. So, a Chinese woodworker's one day's salary, multiply by 1.3 to be on the safe side, equals..?

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## Timo Qvintus

> Actually, in about 60 swords (has it been that many? Geez...) or so, lost track of the actual number, I have faced a few Chen tsuka issues. The main issue has always been loose fit. A loose tsuka can be shimmed, and obviously if it is loose you can assume there wasn't any stress to force the core apart. One was a practical plus tanto that had so bad a fit it required about 4 shims, two on each side, to have it in their solid. 
> 
> I also HAVE seen a split Chen tsuka core, 2 in fact, but like some of the other cores I've seen they were split at the seam. In fact the original Kami katana I had, the nakago was bent to the side slightly. I had to dimount it, place it on a chair and hold it down, and with my other hand apply pressure to the nakago to straighten it. It worked, but for their highest (back then) in their line, that's something they should have spotted.
> 
> Of the 15 or 18 or so Dynasty katanas I have customized, I also found 2 with split seams. Of course you can't multiply that upwards and say Dynasty has a 4x failure rate as these are small samples.


Interesting stuff, Aaron. Have you just rewrapped the old tsuka or do you make new cores (or both)? If you dispose the old cores, have you by chance split any to see how they've been done?

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## J. Bouthner

actually I've owned a PC shinto (one of the original ones) and a PPK and both had cracks in the tsuka.  It makes me wonder if that is why the samurai went through all the trouble of having metal bands around them and wrapping them with ray skin and silk cord.  I can't say I've ever seen a production katana that didn't have a cracked tsuka.  The only exception would be my japanese production iaito.  I dont' get it.  I can't imagine a $250.00 iaito has a better tsuka than a $650 PC shinto.  Am I wrong.  Aren't most sub $300 iaito production too?

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## Timo Qvintus

> actually I've owned a PC shinto (one of the original ones) and a PPK and both had cracks in the tsuka.  It makes me wonder if that is why the samurai went through all the trouble of having metal bands around them and wrapping them with ray skin and silk cord.  I can't say I've ever seen a production katana that didn't have a cracked tsuka.  The only exception would be my japanese production iaito.  I dont' get it.  I can't imagine a $250.00 iaito has a better tsuka than a $650 PC shinto.  Am I wrong.  Aren't most sub $300 iaito production too?


I've only seen one Japanese iaito disassembled, and it was shimmed. See my post above.. I guess that's how they do it how cheap swords as well. And I bet my Orchid that 9 times out of 10 (if not 10/10) even a cheap Japanese tsuka beats a Chinese tsuka of any price-range.  :Wink:

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## michael wilson

Its not often I am wrong !

LOL and I am terrible liar as well , 

Shims do seem like the lesser of two evils  - s in given a choice I would much rather install shimming than have a core split on me  - ah well not everything is as I first thought .

Maybe hanwei go the other way and have agenerous fit ( they did include shims with their cleaning kits  - do they still do that ? ) to their tsuka .

As opposed to the cheness tsuka fitting MO where angry mounter guy gets the tsuka from depressed looking ito chic , and whacks said tsuka into place with a large mallet. :Big Grin: 

( see making of cheness katana youtube vid )


Mick

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## Mat Rous

Just remember the difference between a 0.5-1mm shim and a Chopstick!  :Big Grin:

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## Aaron Justice

> Interesting stuff, Aaron. Have you just rewrapped the old tsuka or do you make new cores (or both)? If you dispose the old cores, have you by chance split any to see how they've been done?


None have even been split enough to actually see inside.

If the wood itself is actually cracked, then I wouldn't proceed, I'd notify the customer as it is obviously unsafe.

I did a Cheness tsuka which also had a split seam, but only for about two, two and a half inches. What I did was get a thin piece of stiff paper (I used a business card) and tried to get a good amount of JB cold Weld epoxy forced into the seam as I could. When clamped, the epoxy held like magic, the wood around it would break before the seam would fail. Of course when it came to putting the tsuka core back on, I had to slightly file the inside with a rasp because what split the core in the first place was the fact it fit too tightly on.

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## Timo Qvintus

> None have even been split enough to actually see inside.


I didn't mean naturally split, I meant split with a combination of chisel, hammer and extreme prejudice.  :Big Grin:

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## Tom Kehoe

I have a Bugei bamboo katana. I removed the tsuka the traditional way and found it to be tight, well-fitting and very strong.  When a tsuka is pinned in two different places, there has to be a degree of custom fitting involved. So I really don't think it's a case of "Chinese just don't do it right."  

But the formula really is simple: The more attention to detail, the higher the cost.  You don't always get what you pay for, but you seldom get _more_ than what you pay for. 

Having said that, i agree entirely that something should be fit for the purpose for which it is sold. The only way that lower-end cutters will get better tsuka is if enough people complain about them -- and demand that they be fixed. 

tk






> I've only seen one Japanese iaito disassembled, and it was shimmed. See my post above.. I guess that's how they do it how cheap swords as well. And I bet my Orchid that 9 times out of 10 (if not 10/10) even a cheap Japanese tsuka beats a Chinese tsuka of any price-range.

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## Aaron Justice

> I didn't mean naturally split, I meant split with a combination of chisel, hammer and extreme prejudice.


I tried once with a Paul Chen practical katana. The results were not that great...  :Big Grin:

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## Timo Qvintus

> I have a Bugei bamboo katana. I removed the tsuka the traditional way and found it to be tight, well-fitting and very strong.  When a tsuka is pinned in two different places, there has to be a degree of custom fitting involved. So I really don't think it's a case of "Chinese just don't do it right."


Bugei would the 1/10 exception to the rule, mate..  :Wink:

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## Timo Qvintus

Whoa, we got us a sticky thread?!  :Cool: 

..it's probably all the glue involved in crafting tsuka..  :Big Grin:

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## michael wilson

A good idea due to the ongoing issues cropping up with alarming regularity concerning cracked and split cores  - 

I wish I could find the post from one of the cracked cheness tsuka threads where a guy states " hey, I bought my first cracked tsuka katana today " he had a smiley icon tacked on the sentence like he was pleased and cracked tsuka are the norm ???

Maybe this thread will run and be updated with more cracked core issues and their resolution ,

personally I would like to see every failed tsuka issue chased up with the vendor regardless of its a $200 or a $500 sword  - if that sword was marketed with a 'suitable for tameshigiri ' blurb or similiar I hope to see the customer holding up the seller to replace the sword  - not just send out another badly made, wrong sized tsuka .

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## Mat Rous

I know legally it's a bit fraught but the whole idea of SFI is education.

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## J Rush

Okay, stupid question from a lurker in this katana-world...

Why don't makers of lower-end katana go ahead and just use peened-over pins or something and make this tsuka (that's the grip, right?) thing permanent to the tang?  Do they make it disassemble-able just so folks can practice taking it apart?  I mean, if it's not exactly an heirloom, is there something heretical about drilling two holes in the tang so the grip can be pinned on permanently?  I know this board is just a board, but from casual observation it almost seems like any katana under around $500 (or certainly under $300) is viewed as disposable.  If that's the case, why the concern about being able to take the thing apart for cleaning?

It seems like the same issue is always coming up...the tsuka isn't "right" so the blade will fly out when it impacts something less forgiving than a pool noodle, and it seems like a cheap way to keep this from happening is pins going through the tsuka through the tang.

Anyhow, just looking for an education here.  Have gotten into swords with european swords first, and certainly want to add eastern blades to the collection, and it's looking like (epsecially after reading Keith's post on page 3)  that there is an average price point before a katana is safe, and the point isn't 300 or 500 dollars.  Which isn't a big deal to me...I'd rather spend 800+ once than 300 three times, and I'm not even planning on going out back to cut up bamboo (just like I don't take the longsword out back to swing at stuff)...just want to know it can if I do ever join a dojo and begin training.

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## Tom Kehoe

Partially it's tradition, partially it's function.  Japanese swords evolved to a level of development that was really never seen in Europe -- or anywhere else for that matter. 

Katana were often kept in service for (many) hundreds of years, so the ability to refit it to suit new hands, a new clan or a new style of fighting was very important.  Moreover, the silk wrapping on the handle wore out with time and had to be replaced. And the fittings on the sword were supposed to reflect the rank of the bearer, so as the samurai's rank increased, his sword would change. 

There are pins (or a pin) going through the tsuka,  but they are bamboo and designed to be removable.  And if the wooden core fits so poorly that it needs to be shimmed with a chopstick, rivets probably wouldn't keep it from cracking under real strain.  

There have been a few manufacturers who have permanently attached the handles of their low-end katanas, but users have complained, even when they have otherwise liked the sword (think the Paul Chen PK). 

tk




> Why don't makers of lower-end katana go ahead and just use peened-over pins or something and make this tsuka (that's the grip, right?) thing permanent to the tang?  Do they make it disassemble-able just so folks can practice taking it apart?  I mean, if it's not exactly an heirloom, is there something heretical about drilling two holes in the tang so the grip can be pinned on permanently?  I know this board is just a board, but from casual observation it almost seems like any katana under around $500 (or certainly under $300) is viewed as disposable.  If that's the case, why the concern about being able to take the thing apart for cleaning?
> 
> It seems like the same issue is always coming up...the tsuka isn't "right" so the blade will fly out when it impacts something less forgiving than a pool noodle, and it seems like a cheap way to keep this from happening is pins going through the tsuka through the tang.

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## Timo Qvintus

> Okay, stupid question from a lurker in this katana-world...
> 
> Why don't makers of lower-end katana go ahead and just use peened-over pins or something and make this tsuka (that's the grip, right?) thing permanent to the tang?  Do they make it disassemble-able just so folks can practice taking it apart?  I mean, if it's not exactly an heirloom, is there something heretical about drilling two holes in the tang so the grip can be pinned on permanently?  I know this board is just a board, but from casual observation it almost seems like any katana under around $500 (or certainly under $300) is viewed as disposable.  If that's the case, why the concern about being able to take the thing apart for cleaning?
> 
> It seems like the same issue is always coming up...the tsuka isn't "right" so the blade will fly out when it impacts something less forgiving than a pool noodle, and it seems like a cheap way to keep this from happening is pins going through the tsuka through the tang.
> 
> Anyhow, just looking for an education here.  Have gotten into swords with european swords first, and certainly want to add eastern blades to the collection, and it's looking like (epsecially after reading Keith's post on page 3)  that there is an average price point before a katana is safe, and the point isn't 300 or 500 dollars.  Which isn't a big deal to me...I'd rather spend 800+ once than 300 three times, and I'm not even planning on going out back to cut up bamboo (just like I don't take the longsword out back to swing at stuff)...just want to know it can if I do ever join a dojo and begin training.


Valid points, which actually have been taken into production to a point. Paul Chen's original "Practical" series tsuka are epoxy-glued on (in addition to mekugi), so those tsuka are not coming flying in a hurry. Cheness has begun to use brass mekugi (which really isn't a solution to safety-issues).

The thing is, a katana is a sum of it's parts. Even if the tsuka is pinned on, that would just cause problems elsewhere. A cheapo habaki would place a stress-point where none should exist if things were fine, which in turn could make the blade snap in two. How's that better than a blade flying out of the tsuka? Well, at least with removable tsuka you can check it for cracks; on a permanently pinned tsuka you can't check what's under the habaki (for example).

At the current influx of chinatana-blades, I would have to say that $500 price-range *SHOULD* be safe. I'm guessing the blades cost $50-100 (?). Not much money is spent on polishing them. Fittings are dime-a-dozen. If they have marketing and advertising expenses I'm really surprised. Logistics-expenses are divided between dozens of swords, not much extra there either. So the rest of the money goes to labor; based on hearsay about the craftsmen's wages in China I find it hard to believe that a $500 swords *COULDN'T* be made safe if they really honestly wanted to make them safe.

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## John J.

Hmm, looking at all the comments about the Cheness tsukas, I'm going to hold of even longer to buy a next sword...  That Cheness Ayame is calling me though...

One idea I'd like to throw around regarding the cracked tsukas.  Is it possible that they cracked not just because of the bad fitting, but also because of the climate difference from us to them?  I mean, the various manufacturers have checked out the blade before shipping them out, and even though it was a tight fit then it may not have been so tight that it would have cracked.  I'm basing this off two things:

1- these swords would not be shipped by air to the United States (too expensive), but by cargo ships.  You're over a huge body of water for a long time, so the humidity is different.  Then you're shipping it to various parts of the country, which have different climate.  Same goes for Europe and South America.

2- I have a wooden miao dao from when I was in Taiwan back in Summer of 1998.  It had a slip-on plastic guard/tsuba.  After I came back to New York City, I noticed that the wood shrank.  In order for me to have the guard stay, I had to it further and further, shortening the handle but gaining more blade.  This started happening just after 3-4 months.  After that, my miao dao has cracks along the grain of the wood, showing that the whole thing has shrunk at different rates.  I was still able to take on a hand and a half metal stage sword, and only came away with some nicks and cuts. (on the wooden dao, not me.  Couldn't maintain the no-edge parrying rule.)  

The various manufacturer for the $200-500 range swords had to do things quick and cheap, so they didn't care as much about the fit as long as it is tight, since the biggest concern for beater swords is for the blade not to fly off the handle and "reach out and touch someone."  Once the swords get here the wood would shrink and distort and other stuff.

Is there anyone on the forum residing in Asia that has purchased swords give some comments about whether or not their wood was shrinking?

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## Timo Qvintus

I can confirm the shrinking on my part; that's why I now PEG-treat the wood I'm using for my hand-made tsuka. The easiest way to spot shrinking wood (with Japanese-style swords) is to keep checking habaki-fit of saya: if it becomes loose or tight periodically, you have a good chance that your tsuka-wood is expanding/compressing also.

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## Tom Kehoe

As a woodworker with 30+ years of exerience, I find this a very interesting idea.  Traditional japanese makers of tsuka and saya are careful to use honoki that has been air-dried for years to avoid cracking. But over time, that wood will still move if the finished tsuka or saya is moved to a climate that is sufficiently different. We see this a lot in Florida, where humidity is often 100% outside, but air-conditioning keeps most homes desert-dry inside.  

I moved a credenza from my mom's home in NJ to my home in Florida earlier this year. My mom's home is not air-conditioned, my home is.  Within a a couple of weeks the drawers were stuck shut.

tk  





> I can confirm the shrinking on my part; that's why I now PEG-treat the wood I'm using for my hand-made tsuka. The easiest way to spot shrinking wood (with Japanese-style swords) is to keep checking habaki-fit of saya: if it becomes loose or tight periodically, you have a good chance that your tsuka-wood is expanding/compressing also.

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## Christian J.

I just recieved my OF Ukigumo katana, it was a factory second with a small discount since the tsuka-maki was a bit loose. Upon inspecting i found that the tsuka was fully split and together with the single mekugi pin that would make quite a mess if it came loose during chopping (movements that is)!
This seems quite a problem with Oniforge, and its the first split i saw in years...

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## Timo Qvintus

> I just recieved my OF Ukigumo katana, it was a factory second with a small discount since the tsuka-maki was a bit loose. Upon inspecting i found that the tsuka was fully split and together with the single mekugi pin that would make quite a mess if it came loose during chopping (movements that is)!
> This seems quite a problem with Oniforge, and its the first split i saw in years...


Try contacting Loren right away, they seem to have a problem on their hands; recent evidence suggests that whoever makes their tsuka has either been using bad glue or has stopped paying attention to what they're doing. When I joined SFI some 18 months back everyone sang high praise to OF.. now they're on fast-track to the blacklist of "expect a cracked tsuka" manufacturers.  :Frown:

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## Christian J.

It almost seems that they are emtying their stock of unsellable items...

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## Timo Qvintus

In this thread you can see what a tsuka *SHOULD* look like:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=80027

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## Timo Qvintus

This Cheness-thread became a discussion that highlights many of the flaws in tsuka of mass-produced katana, and Paul Southren of SBG dropped in to update on Cheness' side of the story plus the improvements in design of their tsuka:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=86801

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## Vladislavs Nazarenko

Hi there! I had the same problem, only with a smaller crack. As I later found out, it was made due to bad fuchi (and the lack of skill  :Embarrassment: ) - it was only sitting great on two sides of the tsuka mouth (N and S), W and E had gaps between wood and metal ~3mm. So when I made a bad cut, where the blade slipped to one side and ... and it cracked.

Sorry, I don`t have photos, because it was quite a long time ago. I`ve repaired the tsuka - gluing the crack with a special kind of glue and made a pair of wood pieces, that I later snuck between the fuchi and the tsuka on the both sides - pressing the mouth from every side, making it stable to cracks on impacts.

Hopefully with my skill, also the quality of cuts went up, so I didn`t had any problems since then.

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## Eric Nelson

Joe, 

I'm a sword fitter in Northern Virginia, with the Shidogakuin dojo.  What ever happened with your tsuka issue?

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