# Communities > Modern-era Swords and Collecting Community > Modern Production Katanas >  Bohi or not Bohi? [question]

## Mario N

Ok guys I believe is a good cuestions because the Bohi: Groove in the blade to reduce the weight or for purposes of better balance of the blade like the Tori XL Light of Hanwei (see picture number 1)

Picture 1


Or without Bohi the blade have better geometry for Tameshigiri (see picture number 2)

Picture 2
 

Now the question is, if one katana is for cut, cut, cut and cut again based on the main function was created was close combat, what kind of blade have better performance for a real close combat or defense? I ask because I feel comfortable both designs on my hands doing tameshigiri also I ask because I love swords and katana is my main weapon on home and I need to know witch one is more recommended for real combat if is required and what kind of steel maybe I have already the more recommended one maybe not, lets roll.

Thank you.

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## Marvin M

Well, i suppose for actualy combat with a sword (however unlikely), without bohi would be better.
this is because you have a stronger blade, and it's heavier, so you can create more momentum with it.

the bohi, apart from making the blade lighter, was used so be able to get the blade out more quickly. without bohi the blade could get stuck in a vaccuum.

or at least thats what i've read.

since i don't know of any stabbing moves specifically for the katana, it is of no use, and no bohi would be better.



> By the way, there are quite a number of different techniques taught for stabbing with a Japanese sword.


Apparently i was wrong


however, don't bring a sword to a gunfight please. don't expect any swordfighting unless everyone runs out of bullets in the modern battlefield. for defense, there are better things out there than a katana, especially in confined spaces like most homes. Buy a shotgun with appropriate ammunition for home defense.

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## Paul Smith

> Now the question is, if one katana is for cut, cut, cut and cut again based on the main function was created was close combat, what kind of blade have better performance for a real close combat or defense?


  The answer to your question is YES!  :Smilie: 

  What I mean is that the question is actually not a question with a proper answer. Adding bohi to a blade changes the weight, balance, and some minor characteristics of the blade. A lighter blade is faster, a heavier blade is easier to cut with (due to momentum) but is slower to move. Basically, it all comes down to the swordsman. A good swordsman will have no problem using either one, and a poor swordsman would have problems of one sort or another with either one. This is why there are many existing historical examples of blades both with and without bohi.

  Its all purely academic anyway as there is zero chance of engaging in a sword duel in modern society.  :Smilie: 

  By the way, there are quite a number of different techniques taught for stabbing with a Japanese sword.

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## Jonathan Frances

As far as the bo-hi vacuum deal goes, I'm not really sure where that idea came from.  If the blade can cut itself in there when everything is connected properly, I have a hard time envisioning a situation where it wouldn't be able to cut its way out, unless maybe you are trying to tsuki someone like Wolverine with a mutant healing factor, and even then I think you'll be ok.  I guess if you get it stuck in something solid like a wooden table or bones or something along those lines it might be tough to pull out again, but I fail to see how having a groove in the steel is going to help you at all.  It doesn't really make sense.  I am sure it must have been discussed somewhere on this forum before.

Everyone knowledgeable about blades that I have spoken with or read about confirms that adding a bo-hi necessarily removes steel and reduces the overall durability to certain stresses.  There might be a point where the added control you can exert over a lighter blade outweighs (heh) the negatives associated with less durability.

There are probably a lot of other considerations that have a higher direct effect on what makes a "better" katana, such as the balance and a well made, solidly constructed tsuka.  You'll probably have to handle a lot or have a really good instructor to point you towards the right fit for whatever purpose you are going for.

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## Dave Drawdy

> ... Everyone knowledgeable about blades that I have spoken with or read about confirms that adding a bo-hi necessarily removes steel and reduces the overall durability to certain stresses.  There might be a point where the added control you can exert over a lighter blade outweighs (heh) the negatives associated with less durability.


 argh.  (warning, rant ensues, not to be confused with personal attack) this is a classic area that people just spend too time worrying about.  less durability?  for what?  whacking samurai in armor? taking out the occasional ninja?  street dueling?  recommendations for 'real combat'?  why, expecting trouble?  technology breaking down, zombies attacking?  planning on carrying around a katana, just in case?  Bad idea.  I hate to say it, but let's be 'real'.  learn what a sword is, what it can do, what makes it effective and efficient.  what feels right to you.  everyone wants the best possible tool but are a) rarely patient enough to research what that means (asking questions on the internet does not count) or b) to train to actually use one properly and thereby figure out what works, and c) usually unwilling to actually spend enough money to get a decently made and mounted blade, which oddly ties into a).   So, bottom line, bo-hi or not, makes little real difference. Get what you like, or what works in training.  Be well, live free, enjoy.  




> There are probably a lot of other considerations that have a higher direct effect on what makes a "better" katana, such as the balance and a well made, solidly constructed tsuka.  You'll probably have to handle a lot or have a really good instructor to point you towards the right fit for whatever purpose you are going for.


 Yep.   :Smilie: 


Dave

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## Mario N

And what about half bohi blades?

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## Rubem Bastos

Where are these pics from?

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## Dave Drawdy

what about them?  That would be a naginata hi, or maybe a soe hi?  Bo hi is just the full length one.  Anyway, that blade shape is naginata-naoshi or maybe nagamaki.  Generally found on polearms or blades with much longer handle.  Nice shape.  If you like it, go for it.

Dave

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## Ricky Arias

Those Pics are of Thaitsuki sword. DO NOT buy those! The forge is a lie. Fake Hamon, Bad quality controll, and an overall sword lacks in ability in all areas.

   As far as Bo Hi or not I would have to say Not. In cutting they make drag and most blades like thaitsuki and alike cheap beaters have huge deep double Bo Hi. I would try a compramise Like a Cheness SGC. Those blades are not Bo Hi, but also they are thinner with good size tang. They are a Cheap line alternate to Hataya Kotetsu ( does not compare by far, but it is $2,700 cheaper ) and when you can get a good one from Mr Chen I have found them to outcut much even in the Bugei and Chen XL line.

    The sword will have a presance but will not be overly hard to use with any kind of speed. But I would call it a good overall beginner for somone who wants a good general use blade as well as a moderate cutter  :Smilie:

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## Mario N

> If you like it, go for it.
> 
> Dave


Buying a good sword is not a simple matter of finding something sharp and traditional looking dude.

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## M.K. Ridgeway

> Buying a good sword is not a simple matter of finding something sharp and traditional looking dude.



DUDE,Drawdy Sensei knows a thing or two about buying a good sword, using a good sword and teaching others as well.

  For those that wish to learn, they must listen if they would hear....

 What Drawdy Sensei is saying is bo-hi, koshi-hi , tsure-hi , naginata hi, etc.
it's six of one half dozen of another. They all function well on a sword that the maker designed/balanced them to be on... they all have historical example...

 Either take the time to learn what is optimum for you,(or ask your Sensei) or just buy what ever you choose.

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## M.K. Ridgeway

BTW, I have a blade with an unokubi zukuri  sugata with koshi -hi , similar to the one pictured above... I love it...

 I also love my shobu zukuri

 and my shinogi zukuri, with and without bo-hi, and the one with bo-hi ni tsure-hi.

 There are many things that make a good sword, and more that make a bad one...

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## C.Anderson

> Buying a good sword is not a simple matter of finding something sharp and traditional looking dude.


I think Dave of all people is pretty well qualified to determine what a good sword is or isn't...and I also don't think he was specifically talking about purchasing that pictured sword.  My bet is he was referring to that particular geometry (as in, if you like it [that style blade] then go for it).

One thing no one has brought up that I see...in regards to the original post, is that (based on my rather limited understanding) neither of those swords would fare too well in a 'real' close combat or defense...regardless of having bohi or not.  Due, mostly...to the fact that there is no support to that paper thin, razor sharp cutting edge geometry.

Realistically though...any of these swords are going to cut someone to shreds in a 'self defense/close combat' situation (unless of course the guy shoots you first...always a real consideration hmm?).  We're all just splitting hairs in trying to determine which one will come out with the least damage right, lol?  You can check it right before they cart you off to jail for chopping up the neighbor (who was looking for his cat in your back yard at midnight) with a 30" razor blade =).

Cris

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## Glen C.

> Buying a good sword is not a simple matter of finding something sharp and traditional looking dude.


Maybe you can expand on your personal criteria, experience and budget? 

Considering quite serious response here you have received from tenured students of JSA, it seems a bit shortsighted to blow them off for honestly voicing their opinion on the matter.

Let us understand one thing clearly from the start though, so there is no misunderstanding. Self defense, home invasion/protection and using swords against others in a modern combative context are off topic and out of bounds anywhere on the SFI discussion boards. There are other forums where you may find a sympathetic and helpful audience for those subjects but it's not going to happen here.

What are your expectations of use for the sword aside from some misguided fantasy of reality? What is your budget? The hi or no hi issue has been kind of dragged around the track many times. you might care to browse this particular subsection back to when it splintered off from the General discussion area. That will give you abut a year's worth of conversation to absorb. It might just answer some of your inquiry.

Cheers

Hotspur; _I'm not sure I could call Paul or Dave dude with a straight face. Maybe Mr. Japanese happy pants but I'd be light on my feet and distant when saying even that_  :Wink:

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## Ricky Arias

And that comes from your vast years of experience in swords? I think people bother themselfs to much about the "perfect" sword to use. When really as Smith and Dave sensei are trying to tell you just grab somthing and start training. I have been training in toyama ryu for about 1 and a half now and have been a sword designer for 5.   The rule I go by is if you can cut and perform Batto Noto with a cheaper sword that meets the minimum you will be that much better when you do get somthing like a Hataya Kotetsu or a Custom MAS ex.

     I point out somthing simple in a sword because it meets the minimum. If you were to get an expensvie sword you would probably rely to much on it and it will only give you to much of an ego. Fact is My sensei can do better things with a Cheap Chen blade than I have seen some of my students do with $1,000 swords. 
 In war times soldiers did not have the pick of a sword forged by a master. Most gunto towards the end of the war were as mass produced as they come with only officers getting decently made swords that were even somtimes made below the "traditional" standard swords of samurai had come to be known for.

     Fact remains get a decent sword and train. Once you master cuts with a cheaper sword you will be that much better when you get a good one in your hands. 

   Nuff said  :Smilie:

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## Harry Fletcher

Cutting is the main purpose of a katana which excells at this if well made.  I would prefer a non bo-hi for the cutting variable.  The blade digs in because of its weight and with proper technique the follow through makes use of the blade's curve.  A curved blade is much better for the cutting aspect.

There is another aspect which people do not think about since swords are only used for dojo cutting these days...and that is being not cut by one's opponent's sword.  A bo-hi makes for a faster handling katana.  As the old saying goes "...there are only the quick and the dead!"

Cutting your enemy down first followed again with another quick cut if needed was the surest way to end an attack if there was an indication of imminient  attack.  Iaido was once based on the draw of the sword and a quick cut to the opponent before being toned down during the long peace and becoming a pursuit of inner peace rather than a necessary skill for staying alive.  A Samurai was supposed to be alert at all times and an enemy who lapsed in this alertness was fair game. Kind of like the old saying "...stay alert and stay alive!"

On the battlefield I would have chosen the heavier blade for its utility in cutting thru armor but during entertaining and normal household activities I would choose the lighter katana with a bo-hi.  One must remember though that a Samurai would not have his katana with him inside both as a resident or guest.  Only his Wakazashi.

Hope that muddles the water a bit.

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## Mario N

Thank you guys for all this information.

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## Dave Drawdy

Mario, as you can see, a more complex issue than just which is better.  Getting back to the original post, as someone said, neither picture represents a traditional choice.  The cross section of the Torii shows the bo-hi as too wide and too deep.  In a traditional nihonto, it is neither, so the effect on sword integrity is not that noticeable.  In the second pic, the shape is generally ok, but it has the more narrow geometry used in modern tatami cutters, so it also would not be as robust as a traditional nihonto.  A good cross section would show more niku, 'meat', a clam shape, not flat, so the edge has more support, more steel behind it.  
So, to get back to which is better, really depends more on what you can do with it.  Training gives the question more context,  a bit more reality.  Cutting in training may give it even more context, but should not be the only consideration.
Good luck in whatever you choose.



> Buying a good sword is not a simple matter of finding something sharp and traditional looking dude.


 Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.   :Smilie: 
Dave

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## Mario N

I understand Dave, is very hard because what is good for one is not good for someone else, are too many considerations and applied to each user, style, technique, size, hands, tall, etc, but I like to me listen what the people think about it.

Thank you.

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## Niël van Rooyen

The main difference between with and without is that a polisher may whimper slightly when presented with a grooved blade - it is MUCH more work...

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## Jonathan Frances

> argh.  (warning, rant ensues, not to be confused with personal attack) this is a classic area that people just spend too time worrying about.  less durability?  for what?  whacking samurai in armor? taking out the occasional ninja?  street dueling?  recommendations for 'real combat'?  why, expecting trouble?  technology breaking down, zombies attacking?  planning on carrying around a katana, just in case?  Bad


Hi Dave,

I understand this comes up a lot and might be frustrating, but are you suggesting that given the same amount of steel and all other things being equal, a bo-hi has no bearing on durability?  Specifically, in dealing with lateral stresses?

I assume that having perfect hasuji is a great answer to avoiding lateral stresses.  I hope I can get closer to that every day.  Until then, mistakes can and will happen, so why not acknowledge that while some of us might need to improve, having a stronger training tool is not necessarily a bad or lazy thing.  There is a difference between saying "I need something that can handle my mistakes until I get better", and saying "I don't need to improve because my sword is awesome".

I am glad that you agreed with the last part of my post, which I feel is the most important part.  Mario did ask specifically about the blades though, so I wanted to respond to that part of his question.

Conversation is fun.

Best regards

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## Dave Drawdy

> ... having perfect hasuji is a great answer to avoiding lateral stresses. ...


there ya go.   :Smilie:    Anyway, nothing wrong with having a stronger tool, but my point is all other things are never equal, except as an intellectual exercise, and bo-hi or not should not be the major consideration, except for maybe aesthetics.  In the two examples, the second sword may well not be stronger than the first, depending on the steel used and the heat treat.  I've seen a bunch of non-bo-hi swords bend from bad cuts.  And a heavier sword is not a better choice if the owner/user can't handle it. (the no training thing again)  One or two cuts against targets is not the same as swinging a sword in practice for a couple of hours, regularly.  Which of those two would be more likely to ready someone for 'real' combat?  

Dave

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## Harry Fletcher

You can beat 'em to death.  Tickle 'em to death.  Or you can slice 'em up and sell peices of them at the meat counter in the local butchers.

Take a big hunk of meat complete with a big bone.  Hang it from a tree with a drop cloth beneath and have at it.  I bet the dojo cutter will halve it rather nicely while the bo-hi katana will leave a nice big cut.

We can't have a sword for all purposes so select one for your present needs such as dojo cutting sessions etc. Buy the best katana you can afford that meets the requirements for a traditional katana if that is what you want by saving up for the best you can possibly afford.  How long you save is up to you.  Once you have it, put it on display and think to yourself...That is THE BEST...I mean THE BEST... and it looks great on display!  Just watchout that your friends do not like it too much too! :Big Grin:  :Big Grin:  :Big Grin:  :Big Grin:

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## Mat Rous

> Take a big hunk of meat complete with a big bone.  Hang it from a tree with a drop cloth beneath and have at it.  I bet the dojo cutter will halve it rather nicely while the bo-hi katana will leave a nice big cut.


You'd be surprised. A lot of modern bo-hi less blades are quite brittle on the edge. 

Most production blades would chip on bone. I know. I've tried it  :Wink:

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## Niël van Rooyen

Imagine that a Katana is an I beam. (More complex - but fundamentally true.) 

For most Bo-hi metal is removed from an area that does not contribute to the strenth of the I beam. 

If we assume that Bo-hi means a single groove from Habaki to close to the Kissaki then Bo-hi:-

1. Do not reduce structural integrity.
2. Ligtens the blade.
3. Different lengths of Bohi make different sounds (only when passing rapidly through air) - it helps the user to learn proper cutting technique - one can hear if the blade is swung true and differentiate between angling "up" or "down." 
4. Do not decrease the "life span" of a blade.
5. As for aesthetics - it's a matter of choice.
6. Make polishing a chore - especially on fully hand crafted blades.
7. A blade without Bo-hi will be "caught" easier in flesh (larger surface area) and require more force to cut - if this is significant???

Of course the lamination type confounds the issue. e.g. A Kobuse or Makuri blade with a deep Bo-hi may have the groove extend through or deep into the higher carbon outer layer - this WILL render the sword weaker. On Sanmai / Shihozume / Hon-Sanmai a Bo-hi will not weaken the blade.

Valid reasons exist for adding a Bo-hi but it's not appropriate for all types of blades.

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## M.K. Ridgeway

> You'd be surprised. A lot of modern bo-hi less blades are quite brittle on the edge. 
> 
> Most production blades would chip on bone. I know. I've tried it



 Hear, Hear... I've chipped my share.  The kotetsu style as pictured in the OP are  especially prone to chipping.

   Really folks, it's about what compromises you're willing to make. Bo-hi or not, if you learn to use the sword, and use it within its parameters , it'll be fine. With proper technique and a little sense a decent sword will withstand anything an iaidoka or kendoka will put it through in the normal course of training.

 On the theoretical battlefield? Well use your yuma and your yari as the bushi did... when it somes down to sword play use your sword w/o thoughts of whatever damage it may recieve. At the end, if you are still alive to mourn your chipped/bent sword... it worked.

 Battle (theoretical or not) is ugly , folks. Swords get damaged, and people die...

 The toughest sword with the most chip resistant edge I have (and my best cutter) is ...(wait for it) .... a through hardened 1050 steel Oni Forge Tonbo(with bo-hi). It has outperformed most production offerings in the $200 - $1000  range. 

    But it's a compromise, it's tough as hell, and cuts well...BUT IS IT A KATANA?

 Well , it's katana like...

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## Jonathan Frances

> Imagine that a Katana is an I beam. (More complex - but fundamentally true.) 
> 
> For most Bo-hi metal is removed from an area that does not contribute to the strenth of the I beam. 
> 
> If we assume that Bo-hi means a single groove from Habaki to close to the Kissaki then Bo-hi:-
> 
> 1. Do not reduce structural integrity.
> 2. Ligtens the blade.
> 3. Different lengths of Bohi make different sounds (only when passing rapidly through air) - it helps the user to learn proper cutting technique - one can hear if the blade is swung true and differentiate between angling "up" or "down." 
> ...


Hi Niël,

I do agree with most of your points, but the i-beam comparison even if greatly simplified, seems a little flat to me.  In an i-beam, the forces are exerted along the vertical axis, so the removal of material is not such a big deal.  However, if you turn that i-beam on its side, do you still believe it has the same structural integrity as a solid piece of steel?

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## Gary S

The wacky subjects you sometimes see here, and the strange tangents that threads tend to go off in...
 Keeping in with the OP's premise of "home defense", then the cheapest, easiest, method with the least _legal ramifications_ is this:
1. Pick yourself up a bokken. For the purposes you're intending this for, you don't even need an expensive one. A  $10 red oak cheapo will do the trick.
2. Practice swinging the aforesaid bokken daily. Bring the bokken over your head at an approximate 45 degree angle, then swing out and down - letting the bokken do the work-then stopping with the bokken roughly horizontal and the tsuka end at the height of your navel. 
3. Start out with 50 times a day and work yourself up to about 500. Do this daily without fail. After you feel comfortable with that, try cuts at a 45 degree angle. If you do this faithfully for 6 months, I will personally grant you a certificate stating that you've mastered the secrets of the "Woodchopper's Ryu".
 Now you have a lethal weapon that won't break, bend, chip, or get wedged in flesh.  Not only that, but when you get arrested for killing someone, we won't have to see yet another news story about some whacko with a Sam-yoo-rye sword. Then overzealous bloodsucking leeches...er, politicians, won't be able to use the BAN SAMURAI SWORDS platform to run for office.

If you're interested in the historical or technical aspect of bo-hi or not, you'll find a zillion threads here with people argueing both sides. However, Dave Drawdy said everything you need to know in his first post. If you're serious about learning more, you couldn't get better advice.

P.S. On the "Buying a good sword is not a simple matter of finding something sharp and traditional looking dude"; people here REALLY need to do a little research before opening their mouths. Look up Dave Drawdy's profile, or better yet, his homepage. You'll find his opinion on what works and what doesn't, has more validity than 90% of the people posting here. On a similiar note; if you're going to use Japanese titles, please, please, please...use them correctly. It should be "Drawdy Sensei" -or more properly since he lives in the U.S, "Sensei Drawdy" - not Dave Sensei. My little brother used to take lessons with this big chain karate school that had pretentions torward the traditional. The teacher was a heck of a nice guy, but listening to them calling each other "Joe sensei" and Sensei Tom", made me want to scream and beg for mercy.

P.P.S. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that someone will read this post and make a reply to the effect that:
a) red oak bokkens aren't sturdy enough to withstand the thickness of your typical ruffian's skull. Therefore, one should get a traditional white oak bokken from Japan. This, in turn, will spark a furious debate as to which kind of wood is best...
b)Correct my technique, and state that the proper technique will involve bringing the sword back further (or less further), cutting deeper, or that they should be practicing cuts from all directions. This will in turn, spark a furious debate on what techniques are best. All I can say is...my school, my techniques... :Big Grin: 

P.P.P.S. Just for the record...The first paragraph WAS SUPPOSED TO BE IN FUN....

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## M.K. Ridgeway

Red or White bokken either one, as long as it as bo-hi...
 and has been christened with a ninja's sweat under a full,red moon


 Oh and practice should be kesa-giri, as well as Migi Gyaku kesa

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## Paul Smith

OK gentlemen, what part of this statement from our moderator didn't y'all understand?  :Smilie:  ...



> Let us understand one thing clearly from the start though, so there is no misunderstanding. Self defense, home invasion/protection and using swords against others in a modern combative context are off topic and out of bounds anywhere on the SFI discussion boards. There are other forums where you may find a sympathetic and helpful audience for those subjects but it's not going to happen here.

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## Dave Drawdy

the post Paul referred to has been moved.

Dave

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## Gary S

Well...that was...different... Guess, I was wrong on the reply I was going to get...horribly, horribly wrong. 
 So who do I owe the donuts too?

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## Jeff Ellis

> You'd be surprised. A lot of modern bo-hi less blades are quite brittle on the edge. 
> 
> Most production blades would chip on bone. I know. I've tried it


Do you know what this means then? 



Save up your money and buy a better sword  :Big Grin: 

I've been playing with swords for 7 years, now. I'm still learning what I like and dislike. I started training in JSA a few years ago, and my tastes have changed yet again.

I want a katana that is blade heavy, has some weight to it, and was made by someone who took the time to do their thing and do it right. 

For a beginner, my beginners opinion says don't get a cutting sword with bo-hi. Your hasuji isn't good enough yet and it can be a failure point in a blade.

There is rumor of a man who cut one or two full tatami mats with a Japanese made Iaito. One of those aluminum ones. He was a higher level practitioner and picked up the wrong sword for the cut as he had all of his swords custom mounted the same.

Just goes to show what really matters doesn't and what doesn't seem to matter can.

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## Jeff Ellis

> Hi Niël,
> 
> I do agree with most of your points, but the i-beam comparison even if greatly simplified, seems a little flat to me.  In an i-beam, the forces are exerted along the vertical axis, so the removal of material is not such a big deal.  However, if you turn that i-beam on its side, do you still believe it has the same structural integrity as a solid piece of steel?


It also doesn't cover the forces if you twist the blade in the target (very common thing, even higher level practitioners do it)

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## Jeff Ellis

> Buying a good sword is not a simple matter of finding something sharp and traditional looking dude.


I know Dave already clarified his meaning, but the way I took it is that if you are just starting out, you don't know what you like. 

Tastes change, and being able to handle many swords will cause this change. If you like something, buy it and see how it feels, if all else fails, sell it and buy another.

Or, join a dojo and see if you can handle a few blades and make the decision that way.

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## Mat Rous

> Do you know what this means then? 
> 
> 
> 
> Save up your money and buy a better sword 
> 
> I've been playing with swords for 7 years, now. I'm still learning what I like and dislike. I started training in JSA a few years ago, and my tastes have changed yet again.
> 
> I want a katana that is blade heavy, has some weight to it, and was made by someone who took the time to do their thing and do it right. 
> ...


Of course - that's why I cut with a custom Blade now - it's big but fast.

I've chipped a DF O-Katana (The edges are too thin with zero niku) on Wara and a Wind and Thunder on bone.

The W&T has held up well on Bamboo but it'll just be a backup blade now it's been re-profiled.

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## Aaron Justice

> You'd be surprised. A lot of modern bo-hi less blades are quite brittle on the edge. 
> 
> Most production blades would chip on bone. I know. I've tried it


Actually, I would think any katana would chip on bone, dead bone that is. Dead, hardened and calcified bone is basically the natural equivalent to chopping a cinderblock. I cringed when Mythbusters was creating a dummy to test and used a old femur to test to see how strong a human bone is. It severely compromised their test results. Then again, when haven't people pointed out problems in their testing?  :Big Grin: 

Besides, I think the original statement about a katana without bo hi easily slicing through flesh, and the bo hi one failing to do so was rather incorrect. Just by a production standpoint, the Tiger or Kami katana from Paul Chen would greatly outcut the Orchid, or maybe even the Bushido katana. The Kami has very wide yet balanced blade offset by the bo hi. A thick, wide blade with Niku (if i remember right the Kami I had did have some niku) would cut much better than a smaller blade without bo hi.

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## Mat Rous

> Actually, I would think any katana would chip on bone, dead bone that is. Dead, hardened and calcified bone is basically the natural equivalent to chopping a cinderblock. I cringed when Mythbusters was creating a dummy to test and used a old femur to test to see how strong a human bone is. It severely compromised their test results. Then again, when haven't people pointed out problems in their testing? 
> 
> Besides, I think the original statement about a katana without bo hi easily slicing through flesh, and the bo hi one failing to do so was rather incorrect. Just by a production standpoint, the Tiger or Kami katana from Paul Chen would greatly outcut the Orchid, or maybe even the Bushido katana. The Kami has very wide yet balanced blade offset by the bo hi. A thick, wide blade with Niku (if i remember right the Kami I had did have some niku) would cut much better than a smaller blade without bo hi.


I'd love for the Kami to be available in Shira saya (preferably without the Horinomo). It's by far the best Hanwei blade I've seen.

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## Glen C.

Scott and Aaron, posts removed. Aaron, well intentioned but compounding the issue. Scott, no firearms, period. 

Glen

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## Jeff Ellis

> I'd love for the Kami to be available in Shira saya (preferably without the Horinomo). It's by far the best Hanwei blade I've seen.


I suppose the real question I should ask of higher level practitioners: What is the best production forge out there for your money?

Hanwei's Bugei blades are up there, I know, and I'm told Citadel as well, but, what other places are there that you can consistently get a reliable sword that you don't ever hear problems about?

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## Mat Rous

Most of it is word of mouth I think.

It depends if you are cutting or not realistically. Also, what mediums you are cutting and how often.

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## Brian Timmons

You know, this is completely off topic, but I find it too amusing to not point out.  "Bo-hi or not bo-hi" rhymes with "To be or not to be".   :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Jeff Ellis

> Most of it is word of mouth I think.
> 
> It depends if you are cutting or not realistically. Also, what mediums you are cutting and how often.


I'd say the best production line I've heard of is the hataya kotetsu, but I can't find anyone selling them anymore...

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## Mat Rous

Doesn't Big Tony still sell them?

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## Jeff Ellis

> Doesn't Big Tony still sell them?


Tozai is down again.

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## Mat Rous

Ah!

I find that most production blades are slanted towards "Competition" geometry which I'm not interested in. As a result I tend to get heavier blades than I would possible choose but they are the only ones with niku etc that I am looking for.

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## Scott Muller

Big Tony is still selling Hataya Kotetsu blades. He even had a new shipment in when I was down in CA last month. You probably need to contact him directly bigtony@senpokan.com to order though.

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