# Communities > Modern-era Swords and Collecting Community > Modern Production Katanas >  Looking for new Katana

## Sam Rollins

I'm not so new to the "Battle Ready" scene so I know what to look for in a good practice cutter and I also know that to get a "real" katana I should buy an L6, or traditionally forged kat, however I can't afford one, so I'm going to go for the next best thing. Keeping that in mind my question is how much of a difference does the 9260 spring make over 1060 carbon (I'm looking at 2 cheness options, the Mokko Ko in 1060 Carbon Mono Steel and the Kaze Ko in 9260 Spring Mono Steel).  Also is it worth the 40 USD difference in price to get the 9260? If anyone has had experience with either of these Ko Kats some feed back on medium target cutting and duribility would be great.

Thanks alot
-Sam

P.S. I'm new to the forum and this is my first post, please be kind as I'm not 100% sure this is the right sub-forum.

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## k.moralee

Hey Sam, I have a kaze. Bought around 18 or so months ago, have used it a few times for chopping beach mats, water bottles and some light pruning of my apple tree and it has fared pretty well to my general lack of technique. The only downside was the cracked core and it now sits stripped in a stand until I can get up to speed on making my own.

To me and my tender knowledge of katana I would say the blades are ok but for the price and what you are looking for then it might be a better option to go with a hanwei from the classifieds here. I have 2 hanwei blades, Musashi and the Bushido, both picked up on here at more than reasonable prices.

This is just my opinion of the blades I've handled, someone else might have a better idea but the hanwei blades just feel so much more balanced and have a better finish.

Cheers, Kris.

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## A. Timp

> I'm not so new to the "Battle Ready" scene so I know what to look for in a good practice cutter and I also know that to get a "real" katana I should buy an L6, or traditionally forged kat, however I can't afford one, so I'm going to go for the next best thing. Keeping that in mind my question is how much of a difference does the 9260 spring make over 1060 carbon (I'm looking at 2 cheness options, the Mokko Ko in 1060 Carbon Mono Steel and the Kaze Ko in 9260 Spring Mono Steel).  Also is it worth the 40 USD difference in price to get the 9260? If anyone has had experience with either of these Ko Kats some feed back on medium target cutting and duribility would be great.
> 
> Thanks alot
> -Sam
> 
> P.S. I'm new to the forum and this is my first post, please be kind as I'm not 100% sure this is the right sub-forum.


Well Iam relatively new here as well myself, but welcome. I have owned quite a few production katana, including several Cheness katana. 

You may want to look through the forum at what other people have posted  in regard to these katana. I myself have owned 3 katana from Cheness, the Mokko, the Shura, and the Kaze. These are good "no frill" cutters, however this company has too many production issues for me to ever consider making a purchase from them again. Two of the three I got had cracked tsuka cores, and the third's tsuba was severely loose due to a mishapen habaki.  If you browse the forum, you will find many others with similar issues.

They do cut relatively well however,  just keep in mind that you won't be doing any cutting at all if you recieve one with a cracked tsuka.

I would suggest buying from a more reputable company, try Dynasty Forge or Hanwei.

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## Sam Rollins

Thank you both for your input! I have another question. I have herd Hanwei blades are notorious for chipping but they have good fittings most of the time. I have also herd that Henwei now use a slightly softer edge now in efforts to stop this from happening. Is this true?
     I have also herd that Cheness has upped the quality of their tsuka cores lately by using better quality wood with more uniformly made blades to fit their aftermarket fittings better and more consistantly.  (This is why I chose Cheness)  It seems to me that both Paul Chens  are equally committed to fixing and addressing quality control issues, however that does denote a large number of flawed products still sneaking past QC from both companies. And lets face it, these are Fords not Porshes but they still cut. Dynasty Forge seems good all around with far fewer complaints, however I have herd a few very scary situations like "chopstick" shims in tsukas and dangerously loose ito wraps. So as you can see I've done the research, I just want to know how much tougher the 9260 is and how much sharper the 1060 is.

(This is just the opinion I have drawn after a lot of research into the subject, I'm usually an English Hand and A Half sword man my self but, these days I want something fast and light so thats why I want the Ko Katana (Chisa).  And once again ANY information is much appreciated in my quest for the perfect under 200 USD blade.

Thanks again 
-Sam

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## Mark Trick

> I'm not so new to the "Battle Ready" scene so I know what to look for in a good practice cutter and I also know that to get a "real" katana I should buy an L6, or traditionally forged kat, however I can't afford one, so I'm going to go for the next best thing. Keeping that in mind my question is how much of a difference does the 9260 spring make over 1060 carbon (I'm looking at 2 cheness options, the Mokko Ko in 1060 Carbon Mono Steel and the Kaze Ko in 9260 Spring Mono Steel).  Also is it worth the 40 USD difference in price to get the 9260? If anyone has had experience with either of these Ko Kats some feed back on medium target cutting and duribility would be great.
> 
> Thanks alot
> -Sam
> 
> P.S. I'm new to the forum and this is my first post, please be kind as I'm not 100% sure this is the right sub-forum.


I am not sure how you define a "real" katana so if you are speaking about authentic then yes to the forging, no to the L6.  Real as in authentic means tamahagane.

People really get hung up on steel type.  The thing to remember is that steel is only potential in a raw material.  The real key is how it was made and the heat processing it goes through.  You can have excellent performance with 1060 and also very poor.  A case in point was that my first sword was Cheness several years ago.  Despite being 9260 silicone super spring steel (as advertised) I found that it took sets with the greatest of ease.  Little more than wrist pressure would bend and unbend that steel.  I exchanged the blade and the difference was night and day.  Same steel, same company, same sword but one was soft and one was correctly treated.

A word of warning - the problem with Cheness is not the blade but the quality control and poor fittings giving a hit or miss experience.   You can find better for less money today and far better for a bit more.

That said it is a bit deceptive or misleading to equate 9260 and "spring steel".  While the silicone aids in the resilience the type of hardening and temper weigh in heavily.  The kaze is differentially hardened while through hardened 9260 is much more springy advertised as "spring tempered".  The majority of the spring comes from the heat treatment.  Since the kaze spine is softer than a through tempered body, it is less springy and has the potential to take a spiral set because of the two hardness levels in the steel.  It should have better edge retention though.

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## tiziano s.

Any Cheness you choose, remember that, as written by the same Cheness, bamboo ( or hard target) cutting is allowed only occasionally. 
Personally, I distrust not differentially hardened blades: there is always the risk that you break. 
Although many of the videos show the opposite, I Do not cut, not would cut my students, something more than just a beach mat with a not differentially hardened. 
As others have written to you, perhaps you could add a hundred dollars and choose a reliable differentially hardened between Hanwei.

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## Timo Qvintus

I would recommend Kris Cutlery. No flash, all function.

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## A. Timp

> Thank you both for your input! I have another question. I have herd Hanwei blades are notorious for chipping but they have good fittings most of the time. I have also herd that Henwei now use a slightly softer edge now in efforts to stop this from happening. Is this true?
>      I have also herd that Cheness has upped the quality of their tsuka cores lately by using better quality wood with more uniformly made blades to fit their aftermarket fittings better and more consistantly.  (This is why I chose Cheness)  It seems to me that both Paul Chens  are equally committed to fixing and addressing quality control issues, however that does denote a large number of flawed products still sneaking past QC from both companies. And lets face it, these are Fords not Porshes but they still cut. Dynasty Forge seems good all around with far fewer complaints, however I have herd a few very scary situations like "chopstick" shims in tsukas and dangerously loose ito wraps. So as you can see I've done the research, I just want to know how much tougher the 9260 is and how much sharper the 1060 is.
> 
> (This is just the opinion I have drawn after a lot of research into the subject, I'm usually an English Hand and A Half sword man my self but, these days I want something fast and light so thats why I want the Ko Katana (Chisa).  And once again ANY information is much appreciated in my quest for the perfect under 200 USD blade.
> 
> Thanks again 
> -Sam


I myself have never had an issue with a Hanwei blade chipping, nor have I ever recieved a sword from either company that I was not satisfied with. Thats not to say that it doesn't happen. these are production blade companies after all.

Its nice to hear that Cheness has upped the quality of the wood in their tsuka cores, however this won't make much of a difference. The problem is that the cores are not made to fit the nagako, they pre-make a bunch of tsuka ahead of time, then when they need a tsuka, they reach into their "Tsuka Bin" and see which one fits best. When they get one that closely fits, they smack it the rest of the way on with a mallet. This is why you get swords with cracked tsuka. 

As far as a "perfect" under 200.00 blade, your going to have a tough time. It all depends on whether you are willing to accept katana with a cracked core, or other issues which could make the sword unusable, or dangerous. Paul from Cheness is good at getting back to you, however how he chose to address the problem of the last sword I purchased with a cracked tsuka, was to send me another pre-made tsuka, which suffice to say does not fix the problem. 

I will say that I still have my 9260 Shura I purchased 5 years ago which I use as a beater, and it has held up very well. But my overall experience with this particular company has "soured" me on any future purchases.

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## John Coris

For the price range the customs from  the SBG store seem good. T-10 differentialy hardened and tsuka's fitted to the specific blade. I am expecting mine within the month and I 'll post a review

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## Timo Qvintus

The T-10 blades I've seen have zero niku, which translates into bending and/or chipping on a bad cut.

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## John Coris

This is indeed a subject I didn't check with Paul at the SBG

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## Jessie F.

All this talk of tsuka cracks seem to leave out somethings: no sword (that ive heard of, nor the SBG last time i checked) has ever malfunctioned solely due to a cracked tsuka, and if you cut a good deal against hard or so targets, your going to crack it at some point - but its all held together with a tension-hold, so if you dont remove it and remove the tension, it should hold with no problems. (atleast thats what i read from SBG before i ever pulled the trigger to buy my cheness.)

Does my cheness's tsuka fit "right"? I dont know, but i do know its tight, and i have 0 reason to remove it. For all i know it could be cracked in multiple places, especially after my bamboo tests of the blade, but nothing shifts, nothing moves, it holds its own, and i dont see the need to break it apart and wreck it. Maybe thats just me, i dont know.

As for the blade, the through hardened ones are strong (from my experience and according to the SBG review, complete with vids), and as has been said, the differently clay tempered one is going to be softer. 

Side note - ive heard just as many "horror stories" about Hanwei as i have anyone else, including their more overly-priced pieces.

I had the same question though when wondering about the Mokko or the 9260 line (for me it was the shura), and i decided id go with their strongest since i have the $$ to - never settle, save and get what ya truly want cause you'll love it more.  :Smilie: 



~Jessie F.

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## Timo Qvintus

I must say you have an interesting view of things. 

All tsuka are going to crack? That's an interesting thought, where did you learn that? Are you talking about all production tsuka or production tsuka of sub-$300 range or what?

DH blades are softer than TH, wtf? By definition, DH have a harder edge and softer back; if TH blades would be "harder" than DH blades, that'd mean they are hard all through the blade, which in turn would mean that the blade would not only chip easily but snap in two!  :Wink: 

I'm not trying to put down Cheness for no reason. I have one in my "chop shop" right now, completely exposed, I see how they're built and consequently I know exactly why they fail as often as they do. And I know enough about the subject to know that cracked tsuka - while it may or may not become a problem right away - is asking for trouble, sooner or later.

About posts on SBG.. well, let's just say that SBG is retailer for Cheness. You don't hear bartenders saying that the booze they're selling tastes like crap, or car-salesmen talking down the car they're trying to sell you.

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## Jeffrey Ching

I've seen cracked tsuka a lot more on modern production swords then on Japanese antique swords. A good construction can maintain its strength for multiple lifetimes.

The problem with manufacturers like Cheness is that the tsuka are carved out with a milling cutter. Smoothed out and absolutely not suitable to properly fit a nakago. This is also the danger. The friction point of the nakago on the tsuka are unbalanced. Let's say that the impact of a cut exponentially increased the force on the handle. As much contact between the nakago and tsuka is needed to distribute the force evenly.  
Combine that with a bad cut and you could splinter the tsuka just like that. Hence the modern phenomenon 'double mekugi'. 

I agree with Timo: Cheness, masahiro etc are cheaper for a reason. Can't recommend them so anybody who wants more than 'just to look at it'.

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## Jessie F.

What i meant was that differently clay tempered blades bend easier then through hardened ones. There is a trade off for it, but still.

My big complaint with a lot of this is the "pushing" of hanwei and such, ignoring their horror stories, of plastic habaki coated with copper, and brittle/weak blades etc... while holding a torch to cheness over what you know is going to be production furniture. Even if ya dont like the fittings, the blade itself is awesome. Sure there may be lemon here and there, most production places have them, but if you let them know, they generally make it right. 

Furthermore, you cant hold production swords to the same standard as custom - they arent. They do their jobs, as production swords. If ya want custom tsuka, ito, same, etc...etc.. great, get it if ya can afford it, but i dont see the deal with running down a production company for not holding to custom standards - especially when the blades (from all ive seen and myself experienced) more then compensate for the money spent on them. (i mean crap, most people spend more $$ on their iPhones then a production sword...)

Im sorry if any find my posts "ranting", i guess im just one of the few happy customers of cheness and dont like seeing them get such a bad rep all the time, if thats a crime, so be it. As long as they keep making quality blades like mine, ima back them. 

Im sure you all understand. 



~Jessie F.

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## Tsugio Kawakami

> All this talk of tsuka cracks seem to leave out somethings: no sword (that ive heard of, nor the SBG last time i checked) has ever malfunctioned solely due to a cracked tsuka, and if you cut a good deal against hard or so targets, your going to crack it at some point - but its all held together with a tension-hold, so if you dont remove it and remove the tension, it should hold with no problems. (atleast thats what i read from SBG before i ever pulled the trigger to buy my cheness.)


First off, a well made tsuka shouldn't crack just because of cutting. If it does, it wasn't made right.

Second, saying "No sword has ever malfunctioned solely due to a cracked tsuka" is like saying "No one has ever died from driving on the freeway with no seatbelt". I mean, _technically_ it's the crash that kills them, right?





> Does my cheness's tsuka fit "right"? I dont know, but i do know its tight, and i have 0 reason to remove it. For all i know it could be cracked in multiple places, especially after my bamboo tests of the blade, but nothing shifts, nothing moves, it holds its own, and i dont see the need to break it apart and wreck it. Maybe thats just me, i dont know.


There is a big reason to remove it. _Check the structural integrity!_ A bridge can stand with a broken support, but it can just as easily come crashing down. Taking a tsuka apart won't wreck it unless you do it horribly wrong or the tsuka is just that far gone. If it is, better that it fall apart while sitting on a table than halfway through a swing.





> As for the blade, the through hardened ones are strong (from my experience and according to the SBG review, complete with vids), and as has been said, the differently clay tempered one is going to be softer.


No. More likely to set, but not softer. Besides, I'd rather have something with a harder edge that will set with bad technique than something with a softer edge that will wiggle around defiantly (Not that TH blades are that floppy. just saying). That's where practice comes in.


I ran out of analogy juice...


Cheness set out to make good _entry level_ swords. _Entry level_ are the key words, IMHO.

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## Timo Qvintus

OK, I see where you're coming from. 

It's a fair point to bring up the "ancient" problems of Hanwei's plastic habaki (that was during last century wasn't it?) in comparison to Cheness' cracked-tsuka-epidemic from last decade; either the sales have gone down since, or they've improved their product, but in any case the tsuka complaints have gone down significantly as of late. God known I haven't seen or heard a complaint (other than chipping) of a Hanwei sword in ages.

The blade I have, however, makes me very nervous about how Cheness in particular shapes their nakago: the only possible reason to make them like this is to wedge the nakago in with friction at *some* point on the tsuka and then hope for the best. Also, it was not long ago when I last heard of Cheness sending a new random pre-fabricated tsuka to a customer with a cracked tsuka, which doesn't sound like they understand the base reason for the problem. A quick look at their website also shows that their way of thinking has not changed, as they offer pre-made tsuka and pre-made habaki as spare parts:
http://www.chenessinc.com/parts.htm

I don't expect production companies to offer custom-class koshirae. I make that stuff myself, and I know exactly why it costs as much as it does to make them. But I do expect the production companies to even try to make things properly, no matter what the sword costs. Putting out inherently hazardous products and calling them indestructible is irresponsible behavior.

Katana-style blades are meant to bend and chip on a bad cut. If your cutting technique is poor, that's the logical result. It's feedback, which is essential to swordsman finding his/her mistakes and improving in future. The tendency for chipping of low-end Hanwei-blades and the likes in particular, though, is a result of zero niku on the blade, which is a result of cheap-ass blade shaping, which is done to keep the costs down. It's kinda ass-backwards way of thinking, to offer swords that damage easily at price-range which makes them appeal to beginners, but that also shows that Hanwei et.al. seem to think that people with poor or no cutting technique shouldn't be cutting in the first place. In contrast, Cheness' philosophy seems to be that everybody should be able to try and cut anything at low cost, regardless of the potential hazards inherently involved. But that's just my opinion.

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## Timo Qvintus

> There is a big reason to remove it. _Check the structural integrity!_ ... Taking a tsuka apart won't wreck it unless you do it horribly wrong or the tsuka is just that far gone. If it is, better that it fall apart while sitting on a table than halfway through a swing.


Actually, the way Cheness do things is they leave the burr resulting of drilling the mekugi-ana on the nakago, and as a result you can severely damage your tsuka trying to remove it if there is a lot of burr and it sticks to the tsuka-shitaji.

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## Jeffrey Ching

> Taking a tsuka apart won't wreck it unless you do it horribly wrong or the tsuka is just that far gone.


Actually taking apart the tsuka from a production blade can give a lot of troubles. You can remove it with force but when putting back together the blade the chance of cracking the tsuka is pretty high. Also shims that may have been put there fall out and can never be put back...

Another thing is that I broke a kashira two times when having to tap the tsuka back on the nakago  :Stick Out Tongue:  I eventually decided not to remount swords anymore of which I know have a production tsuka. To much pain in the ass.

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## Tsugio Kawakami

> Actually, the way Cheness do things is they leave the burr resulting of drilling the mekugi-ana on the nakago, and as a result you can severely damage your tsuka trying to remove it if there is a lot of burr and it sticks to the tsuka-shitaji.






> Actually taking apart the tsuka from a production blade can give a lot of troubles. You can remove it with force but when putting back together the blade the chance of cracking the tsuka is pretty high. Also shims that may have been put there fall out and can never be put back...
> 
> Another thing is that I broke a kashira two times when having to tap the tsuka back on the nakago  I eventually decided not to remount swords anymore of which I know have a production tsuka. To much pain in the ass.


Fair enough at both of these.  :Stick Out Tongue:  I've been lucky enough to have not damaged tsuka while remounting them, yet, I guess.

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## Tsugio Kawakami

Also:




> If your cutting technique is poor, that's the logical result. It's feedback, which is essential to swordsman finding his/her mistakes and improving in future. The tendency for chipping of low-end Hanwei-blades and the likes in particular, though, is a result of zero niku on the blade, which is a result of cheap-ass blade shaping, which is done to keep the costs down. It's kinda ass-backwards way of thinking, to offer swords that damage easily at price-range which makes them appeal to beginners, but that also shows that Hanwei et.al. seem to think that people with poor or no cutting technique shouldn't be cutting in the first place. In contrast, Cheness' philosophy seems to be that everybody should be able to try and cut anything at low cost, regardless of the potential hazards inherently involved. But that's just my opinion.


This.

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