# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  A nice military painting

## J.G. Hopkins

Some images of an oil painting of an NCO with his mameluke hilted sword: http://www1.snapfish.com/slideshow/A...41515_38959393 , http://www1.snapfish.com/slideshow/A...41515_38959393

Edit: Let me know if the links do not work, or if snapfish requires you to register, and I will move the images to a yahoo album.

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## J.G. Hopkins

I decided to make a yahoo album anyhow.  There is an additional shot of the medals he is wearing.  Any ideas regarding country or branch of service or date?

Link to Yahoo! album: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/jgiles...?.dir=/f546re2

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## John Hart

> _Originally posted by J.G. Hopkins_ 
> *I decided to make a yahoo album anyhow.  There is an additional shot of the medals he is wearing.  Any ideas regarding country or branch of service or date?
> 
> Link to Yahoo! album: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/jgiles...?.dir=/f546re2*


The left-hand medal is British: it's the Crimea Medal (1854) with three clasps; the right-hand one is the Turkish Crimea Medal (1855), awarded by the Sultan to troops of the three Allied armies (British, French, Sardinian); the middle one I don't recognise, but the eagle looks French, which would make sense when combined with the other two.

So this would date from after 1854/5.  The Crimea Medal was only awarded to British troops, so he's British.

Hope this helps,

John

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## J.G. Hopkins

John,
Thank you for your input.  I did not know about the medals, but he looked like he was from the 1850s to me.  With a sword like that would he have been a lancer?

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## David Critchley

> _Originally posted by J.G. Hopkins_ 
> *John,
> Thank you for your input.  I did not know about the medals, but he looked like he was from the 1850s to me.  With a sword like that would he have been a lancer?*


Yes it looks like the officer's dress mameluke used by the light cavalry at that period, so probably a presentation piece since the crown and chevrons show he's a colour sergeant.
It looks a bit like the 15th Hussars mameluke.

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## M. Tweel

The middle medal is the French Medaille Militaire, 1853-1870 issue, and it would have been awarded to French, British and others as a result of the Crimean War.

The Crimea medal (first medal) is British but was awarded to French troops as well.  As noted already, your photo shows a sergeant (3 stripes) and the helmet plate looks to be British.  You might be able to see his regiment number on the helmet plate.

The pattern of sword would not match up with his rank and the comment about it being a presentation piece might be linked to his award of the Medaille Militaire.

Michael

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## John Hart

> _Originally posted by M. Tweel_ 
> *The Crimea medal (first medal) is British but was awarded to French troops as well.*


Thanks for that, Michael - I hadn't realised the Crimea Medal was awarded to soldiers in the other Allied armies.  Do you know if non-British recipients would also be awarded clasps?

John

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## J.G. Hopkins

This is really fantastic information--thanks, everyone.  My father is an antiques dealer, and he has had several painitngs of British officers throughout the years, but they are usually non-descript and rather uninteresting (with the exception of one that featured religious symbolism in the background).  This NCO is quite interesting since his medals show him to be a veteran of the Crimean, and because of his mameluke sword.  I will try to find out if there is a number on the badge on the shako.  I hope my father keeps this one!

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## Bill Goodwin

A nifty painting it is.  Another grand thing of this vintage collecting relm is the different avenues of interest it can lead to and inspire.

Cool stuff,

Bill

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## hc bright

I wonder how many Crimean Regiments had blue uniforms with red facings?

I wonder if you could identify this man. The Medaille Militaire was given pretty sparingly. If there is still a registry- which I suspect there is- and you could track down the regiment, it's possible. I suspect that  there were only one or two presented to soldiers in each regiment. 

If you CAN identify it, that certainly would increase its value- imagine if it turns out to be a light brigade charger! Also, the family, if you could trace them, might want great grandfather's picture, as might his regimental museum

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## John Hart

> _Originally posted by hc bright_ 
> *I wonder how many Crimean Regiments had blue uniforms with red facings?*


The following are the only candidates in the 1889 Army List (a bit late, I know):

12th Lancers - "Uniform, Blue; facings & plume, scarlet"

There are other units with blue uniforms and scarlet plumes, but facings aren't mentioned, so I take them to be the same as the uniform.

The 12th were certainly in the Crimea, as one of their battle honours is "Sevastopol".

That would seem to fit with the alleged Lancers tag?

John

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## J.G. Hopkins

> _Originally posted by hc bright_ 
> *I wonder how many Crimean Regiments had blue uniforms with red facings?
> 
> I wonder if you could identify this man. The Medaille Militaire was given pretty sparingly. If there is still a registry- which I suspect there is- and you could track down the regiment, it's possible. I suspect that  there were only one or two presented to soldiers in each regiment. 
> 
> If you CAN identify it, that certainly would increase its value- imagine if it turns out to be a light brigade charger! Also, the family, if you could trace them, might want great grandfather's picture, as might his regimental museum*


I am certainly going to look into who he might be.

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## J.G. Hopkins

> _Originally posted by John Hart_ 
> *The following are the only candidates in the 1889 Army List (a bit late, I know):
> 
> 12th Lancers - "Uniform, Blue; facings & plume, scarlet"
> 
> There are other units with blue uniforms and scarlet plumes, but facings aren't mentioned, so I take them to be the same as the uniform.
> 
> The 12th were certainly in the Crimea, as one of their battle honours is "Sevastopol".
> 
> ...


John,
Thanks for the info on the 12th.  The mameluke made me think lancers, not any knowledge of uniform.  My only resource on uniforms is the Fosten & Fosten book  _The Thin Red Line_, and that does not depict any cavalry or lancer uniforms from the 1850s.

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## M. Tweel

John:

Crimea medals issued to French troops are found with "unofficial" clasps for Traktir, Mamelon Vert, Malakoff, Mer d'Azoff and Kinburn as well as the usual "British" clasps.  I have seen references to French examples with all 4 British clasps and a few "unofficial" French clasps.

Michael

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## M. Tweel

Jonathan, I have asked some medal collectors for comments.   If the regiment can be identified, the listing of French MM winners might list a few sergeants (hopefully, just one) and this might narrow down the field for you.
Michael

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## M. Tweel

It might be that he is now out of the regular army and in a militia unit.  Could this explain the use of this pattern sword.  Also, the sword might have been a painter's prop.

The listing of cavalry I found at the Crimea War Research site is as follows.  I have added the Helmet Plume colours based on info from JS Farmer's Regimental Records 1901.

Household Cavalry Regiment (ex 1D) - Helmet Plume  Black
The Queen's Dragoon Guards (ex 1DG) -Helmet Plume Red
The Royal Scots Dragoon Guards (Carabiniers and Greys) (ex 6DG [Plume White] /2D [Plume White])
The Royal Dragoon Guards (ex 4DG[Plume White] /5DG[Plume Red & White] /6D [Plume White])
9th/12th Royal Lancers (Prince of Wales's) (ex 12L Plume Scarlett)
The King's Royal Hussars (ex 10H Plume Black & White])
The Queen's Royal Hussars (The Queen's Own and Royal Irish) (ex 4LD Plume Scarlett /8H Plume Red & White)
The King's Royal Hussars (ex 11H Plume Crimson & White)
The Light Dragoons (ex 13H Plume White)
The Queen's Royal Lancers (ex 17L Plume White) 

Assuming the red/scarlett colour in the painting is accurate and he is in a regular army uniform, it seems based on plume he has to be 1st Dragoon Guards (Scarlet Uniform, Blue Facings), 12th Lancers (Blue Uniform, Scarlett Facings,  or 4th Light Dragoons (Blue Uniform, Scarlett Facings).

So, my guess is 4th Light Dragoons.  He is wearing a 3 clasp medal (likely Alma Balaklava and Sebastopol) and I do not believe the 12th Lancers were in the charge of the light brigade, so the clasps count would not seem to be right.

Michael

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## M. Tweel

For ease of reference.

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## M. Tweel

I found a list of the 4th Light Dragoons and below is an edited list of Sergeants (might not be complete):


SURNAME	FORENAMES   RANK
BAKER 	J G 	Sergeant 
BARKER 	John 	Sergeant 
BUTLER 	Thomas	Sergeant 
CAMPBELL Edward Sergeant 
CLARK 	John 	Regimental Sergeant Major 
DIVANE 	William Sergeant 
FARMER 	William	Sergeant 
FOWLER 	William	Troop Sergeant Major 
GALE James G. Sergeant 
HARROLD Thomas	Sergeant Trumpeter, Trumpeter-Major 
HERBERT FrankTroop Sergeant Major 
HOUSTON Charles [Nathaniel?]Armourer Sergeant 
HOWES John Sergeant 
JENNINGS Henry	Regimental Sergeant Major 
KELLY James William 	Troop Sergeant Major 
LAY James Sergeant 
LYNCH Richard Sergeant 
McVEAGH John Hospital Sergeant 
OCKFORD Samuel Troop Sergeant Major 
POINTER George 	Sergeant 
REDDING Edward 	Sergeant 
REILLY John Regimental Sergeant Major 
SHORT Frederick Sergeant 
SMITH 	Alexander [Oliver?]Saddler Sergeant 
STRATHERS Robert Troop Sergeant Major 
THOMAS 	William	Sergeant 
THORPE 	W. H. Troop Sergeant Major 
WATERSON William Troop Sergeant Major 
WATSON 	William Sergeant 

Source: Extracted from Honour the Light Brigade
by Canon William Murrell Lummis M.C.
Edited, arranged and additional material supplied by Kenneth G. Wynn
Pub. J. B. Hayward and Son, London, 1973.

If someone has access to the French MM awards listing or the London Gazette, you might be able to reduce this list down to a few men.

Michael

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## J.G. Hopkins

Michael,
I appreciate your efforts to help identify the man in the painting.  Thank you.

I am wondering who would have paid for such a portrait to be made?  It seems unlikely (although not impossible) that a man from the ranks could afford to commission a painting.  If the sword is not a painter's prop and is indeed a presentation saber, the painting might be part and parcel of the celebration of a hero of the Crimean War.  I wonder where his sword (if it's his) and his medals now reside...

Added: There is no number on the shako plate.

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## M. Tweel

Jonathan:

I just looked at a Crimean Fenton photo of some 4th LD officers and they have the 1821 pattern sword.  The more I think about it, I am wondering if the sword does relate to the French MM award and the painting flows from the same event.

I am not able to go any further on this one so hopefully someone has access to the London Gazette online and can track down the awards of this medal for the 4th LD.

Michael

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## hc bright

Is that a cavalry cap? It looks like an infantry style to me, but I am no expert. Also of course the painting could  post date the Crimea, but not by much considering his age.

I think the French Musee de l'Armee would be a good starting point. My understanding is that the Medaille Militaire is for non commissioned soldiers  or General officers only, but that might be a newer qualification.

M. Binck should weigh in shortly...

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## M. Tweel

Again from the Crimean War Research site: "A complete list of British recipients, together with citations for the award, was published in "Medals of the British Army" by Thomas Carter, London, 1861, and most recently reprinted (without citations) in "British Battles and Medals" by Joslin, Lithland and Simpkin, London, 1988".

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## J.G. Hopkins

I just requested "British Battles and Medals" by Joslin, Lithland and Simpkin, London, 1988 via interlibrary loan.  It may be a while before it arrives, but I'll keep you all posted.  Thank you for your enthusiastic and helpful responses.

Regarding the shako, the _The Thin Red Line_ by Fosten and Fosten, there are light dragoons c.1854 wearing shakos.  Upon close inspection, this book does depict a private from the 4th Light Dragoons, and the uniform is much more conservative looking.  The possibility that this is a yeoman regiment uniform seems plausible.  I would like to find out more about the decoration on the cross guard on his sword.  I came across a mameluke sword in Harvey's latest book that is Turkish and has a crescent on the cross guard.  It is dated to c.1900, but it has made me wonder if the mameluke hilt has some sort of tie-in with the medal from the Sultan.  Lots of unfounded speculation from me tonight!

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## J.G. Hopkins

I was able to get ahold of the previous owner and this is the information she had been given:

"Portrait of a Band Sergeant, possibly Rifle Regiment, seated half length, wearing uniform and holding a mameluke hilted sword.  The medals are The Crimea Medal with three bars for Alma, Inkerman and Sebastopol, and the Turkish Crimea Medal.  Original frame."

I wonder how a band sergeant came by the (from what hear) rare French medal?

Added: Earlier in the thread David (I think) mentioned that our man is a colour sergeant, and I am inclined to agree.  I have found that the 3 chevrons with crown indicates staff sergeant/colour sergeant in the present day.

What do you think about the possible rifes attribution?

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## hc bright

Bandsmen fought too, and were often stretcher bearers. Of coutse he might have been a corporal or private in the war, and transferred. I hadn't even thought of it being a band master's sword, but then I'm not musical....

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## David Critchley

It wasn't unusual for the Light infantry to imitate the light cavalry in terms of dress diring the early 19th C. Whether this continues to the middle of the century I'm unsure.

Bandsmen early on were hired rather than recruited so to speak, although this might have changed by the Crimea.

The rank is clearly that of a colour or staff sergeant and I would have thought a bandsman would have at least some musical reference in the portrait. - Just a thought.

Some regimental bandsmen did carry mamelukes but they tended to be brass hilted. That clearly looks like an officers quality sword -and therefore a presentation one probably.

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## J.G. Hopkins

> _Originally posted by David Critchley_ 
> *It wasn't unusual for the Light infantry to imitate the light cavalry in terms of dress diring the early 19th C. Whether this continues to the middle of the century I'm unsure.
> 
> Bandsmen early on were hired rather than recruited so to speak, although this might have changed by the Crimea.
> 
> The rank is clearly that of a colour or staff sergeant and I would have thought a bandsman would have at least some musical reference in the portrait. - Just a thought.
> 
> Some regimental bandsmen did carry mamelukes but they tended to be brass hilted. That clearly looks like an officers quality sword -and therefore a presentation one probably.*


I agree.  After looking through my Fosten & Fosten book and googling british bandsman uniforms, this NCO's uniform looks nothing like what I have seen.  The bandsman's uniforms I have seen are all red and are much flashier, with bandmasters having (4?) white chevrons on each arm.

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## hc bright

Did cavalry regiments even have colour sergeants? No colours, after all.

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## David Critchley

Well, they have standards rather than colours, true but the rank is the same. 

Take the point though HC Staff rather than Colour sergeant? 

Must be higher than Troop Sergeant though because the crown idicates the Queens Warrant so Troop Sergeant -Major is another possibility.

- Unless he's Household of course then he's a Corporal-
major  :Big Grin:

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## M. Tweel

Jonathan:

Are you actually able to read the clasps/bars on the Crimea medal?

If Balaklava is not one of the clasps, as you know, you have to rule him out as a light or heavy brigade charger (if he is cavalry).  He would also not be a 12th Lancer as they were not present at Alma or Inkermann.

The combination you mentioned could belong to a 4th Light Dragoon as they were at Alma, Inkermann and Sebastopol.

Some members of Rifle Brigade would have received the clasp combination of Alma, Inkermann and Sebastopol but the uniform is green with black (not sure what is it for band members).

A member of another site, provided me with the following for the French Medaille Militaire as per Carter British Medals 1861:

4th Light Dragoons

RSM James W. Kelly
Sgt John Andrews
Pte Thomas Guthrie
Pte George McGregor

All were for gallant conduct at charge of Light Brigade 25/10/1854. Served Alma, Balaklava, Inkermann, Traktir & exp. to Eupatoria Oct 1855.

So, this would rule out your man as a 4th LD with the French MM if there is no Balaklava clasp.

He felt that the type of sword would be not be unusual as a presentation piece to a sergeant awarded a French MM.

Michael

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## M. Tweel

I was advised by a member of another site that with respect to the Rifle Brigade:"the later pattern tunic was still green with black facings and the shako would have a black worsted ball (tuft) and the bugle badge.  According to 'Rifle Green in the Crimea' - Band sergeant- clothed as company sergeants, but with officers pattern sash (crimson silk).  Privates clothed entirely as company sergeants, but without the sash and gloves. This is for the coatee uniform which was double breasted with two rows of buttons."

Probably safe to say your man at the time of the painting was not in the Rifle Brigade.

Another member provided me with a scan of a presentation sword to the Officer in Charge of the Duke of Lancasters Yeomanry Cavalry from his officers and men in 1856.

Can you provide a closeup of the shako badge or describe it.

Michael

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## M. Tweel

Sword to Officer in Charge of the Duke of Lancasters Yeomanry Cavalry.

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## J.G. Hopkins

My mother is watching the shop while my father is away, and this is her description; "the shako has a crown over a gold looking
medal like thing-in a square-ish shape."  Probably not too helpful.

This is the best close up I have, unfortunately.  I am going to call my mother and see if she can be more specific than "square-ish shape".

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## J.G. Hopkins

Not too much more information, but she was able to say that the plate is in a square sun-burst shape with no numers or cipher.  

If you look closely at the epaullette (sp) it looks like there is a number 2.

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## J.G. Hopkins

Sorry, here is the enlargement:

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## M. Tweel

The "2" does not relate to any of the cavalry regiments under discussion and the 2nd Queens Royal Regment were not in the Crimea.  The 2nd Coldstream Guards were there but their uniform is scarlett with blue facings.

Bit of a puzzle as the artist has the right width of ribbon that was original to the Turkish Crimea and later replaced with ribbon the same width as the other medals. So if they got this right, you would think the rest is correct as well.

Would be interesting to see the badge on the shako.

Michael

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## J.G. Hopkins

The 2nd Regiment of Foot Guards aka Coldstream Guards have battle honours for Alma, Inkerman, and Sevastopol, but I think the uniform on our colour sergeant is probably wrong.

Edit:  It looks as if we posted simultaneously.  Sorry for the duplicate information.

Edit 2: My mother will attempt a close-up of the shako tomorrow.

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## J.G. Hopkins

Is Royal Artillery a possibility?  The colours seem right, except that he has no gold (as I have seen in internet pics), but regiments.org lists their uniforms as blue with red facings.

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## M. Tweel

Here is a period photo I have showing a group of Royal Artillery and Royal Horse Artillery from the Crimea period.

While the uniform colours would match (not sure about the uniform details) the plume on the shako would be wrong at the plume for the Royal Artillery is white.

Michael

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## M. Tweel

Another one I have of a Royal Horse or Bengal Horse Artillery.
Too much detail on the uniform for one of these and in the backgroud you can see a bandsman.

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## M. Tweel

Jonathan:
I think I would check the painting for further details.  There might be the name of the artist and I would like to see scans of the badge with confirmation of the clasp names.

Assuming he is still in his regular army uniform, the following were present at the Crimea:Foot Guards : 1, 2 & 3rd.  Line Regiments: 1, 3, 4, 7, 9, 13, 14, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 23, 28, 30, 31, 33, 34, 38, 39, 41, 42, 44, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 55, 56, 57, 62, 63, 68, 71,72, 77, 79, 82, 88, 89, 90, 93, 95, 97 Foot and Rifle Brigade.  Cavalry: 1,4,5,6 Dragoon Guards, 1, 2, 6 Dragoons, 4,8,10,11,13 Hussars/light Dragoons.  12th (Sebastopol only) 17th Lancers.  Royal Horse Artillery, Royal Artillery, Sappers, Medical and Transport Corps.

Sorry, pretty big list unless you make some assumptions or can otherwise narrow it down by using the clasps and/or badge.

To get back to the sword topic of this forum, I understand that there would not be any details in the sword (other than naming) that would link this to a particular regiment other than this is probably a cavalry presentation as a line regiment would probably give a sergeant a presentation sword similar in nature to that used by officers of the regiment.

I look forward to seeing the additional scans.

Michael

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## M. Tweel

I just exchanged some emails with a person who has collected images for many years and he felt that we might be placing too much importance on the sword being a cavalry presentation piece.

He noted that many volunteer/militia bands wore hussar style uniforms and that this type or style of sword would not be unusual for a volunteer/militia band.   

So, it is possible that your fellow is a former Rifle Brigade bandsman now in volunteer/militia band.

Lots of questions.

Michael

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## J.G. Hopkins

Yes, I am thinking that the bandsman attribution is just as valid as any other.  Would the band have a colour or staff segeant?  Or would a band-master have the same rank mark (three chevrons with a crown)?

On p.260 of Robson (plate 227) there is what might be a band-master's sword of the 30th foot.  It has a mameluke hilt with very pronounced acorn quillon terminals.  Robson says, "Band-masters might have been expected to to have carried even more decorative swords than bandsmen.  But equally they are likely to be even rarer although the sword illustrated (plate 227) may be that of a band-master."

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## J.G. Hopkins

Shako close-up...looks like it has brass instruments to me.

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## J.G. Hopkins

Another:

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## J.G. Hopkins

I have sent an enquiry to the National Army Museum to see if they can at least help identify the uniform.  I will post any informative response I may receive.

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## J.G. Hopkins

This is what I have heard from the NAM's Curator of Uniforms, Medals, and Badges:

"From your written assumptions and the detailing visible in the image forwarded I agree that the sitter was most likely to have been a Bandmaster with the Rifle Brigade.  I would date the image to post 1866.

I consulted my colleague Mr Keith Miller who has reliably informed me that the sword is a Mameluke, carried by General Officers and Bandmasters; General Officers swords had crossed baton and sword on the hilt, as this is not present in this image it confirms that the Gentleman was a Bandmaster."

She suggested that I contact the Royal Green Jackets Museum for more information, so stay tuned!

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## M. Tweel

Here is a list of information provided by a collector on another site:

[quote] Crimea French MM's to the RB;

1st Bn.
Col. Sjt. John Hicks

Pte Bernard McMahon - serving in the BAND & displayed great coolness & courage on various occasions in bringing in wounded. On the 18th June he joined the ranks (volunteer) to take a more active part in the attack that day.

(Only problem here is that Carter states McMahon received the Crimea & 4 clasps ) Possible error?

Ptes John King -Patrick McCann - Henry baily - Thomas Davis - John Green;

Sjt Major Richard Cornelius. Pte Walter Eagle

NB It appears the above all received the Crimea with 4 clasps according to Carter - British Medals of Crimea.

2nd Bn

Sjt Major John Waller - Colour Sjt.Daniel Fisher - Sjt. James Harrywood

Sjt. Thomas Burge - Cpl. Joseph Bradshaw -

Ptes Charles Feough - Michael McCormick -

Col. Sjt. C.F.Munro - Pte Mark Benn - Charles Dencer.

Carter states many of the above received the Crimea with 3 clasps. [end qoute]


So, while Bernard McMahon might seem the likely canidate, another collector confirmed that McMahon was awarded 4 clasps as well as the South Africa 1853 issued in 1855 (which would then be worn same time frame as Crimea).

I am adivsed that members of the 2nd Battalion did not receive the South Africa so your fellow, if a Rifle Brigade man would likely have to be from this battalion.

Michael

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## J.G. Hopkins

Fantastic, Michael, thanks!  Perhaps the "2" on the epaulette indicates his battalion.  The colour sergeants or sergeant majors  (sergeants major?) seem like possible candidates, although there is no band affiliation mentioned.

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## J.G. Hopkins

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but my dad recently sent me this photo of his shop, and it shows the scale of this painting.  This NCO is no doubt excited about the upcoming holiday season...

Jonathan

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## hc bright

Much larger than expected! 

Any further in the identification?

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## J.G. Hopkins

No, I never heard back from the Royal Green Jackets Museum, I'll contact them again next week.  

Jonathan

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## J.G. Hopkins

Here is another nice painting my father came across and forwarded to me.  This sword is a bit easier to identify than the last one.  Any thoughts on the medals?

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## hc bright

The one with all the bars is meant to be an army general service 1793-1814, the one to the right of it is the same. The one on the left, I don't know.

I rather suspect that this is a new Chinese painting. It looks like one of those, and not just because of the medals. It doesn't look "right". The funky red tassels look like they came off the drapes. The epaulets are too long and big. And, generally, the proportions are odd- doesn't look like a genuine 19th century painter did it. Not a matter of naivete, but just that oddness.  You see the same in the new Chinese hunting paintings.

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## J.G. Hopkins

> The one with all the bars is meant to be an army general service 1793-1814, the one to the right of it is the same. The one on the left, I don't know.
> 
> I rather suspect that this is a new Chinese painting. It looks like one of those, and not just because of the medals. It doesn't look "right".


Huh.  I never considered that it was a fake.

Thanks,
Jonathan

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## hc bright

I'm not throwing stones by any means, I haven't seen it close up. I may be telling you something you know already, but just in case. There are "art factories" in asia which turn out fake paintings by the million. They are genuine oils by genuine human beings, but done as a production item. 

Anyway, I see them constantly here in the U. S. They started in better antique stores and salted auctions, and now have worked their way down to flea markets. Your picture has "the look".

Here's an article, and some examples.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...433134,00.html

http://globalwholesaleart.com/catalo...49482ef7e892c3

http://www.toucanart.com/en/categori...people/famous/

http://www.toucanart.com/en/categori...eople/hunting/

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## J.G. Hopkins

Thanks for the links!

Jonathan

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## David Critchley

The medal on the left is the Crimea medal 1854 by the look of things

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## hc bright

Didn't the Crimea have those swirly bars? That one is straight.

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## J.G. Hopkins

I am going to see if I can get any close-up images of the medals to see if that helps clarify anything.

Jonathan

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## John Hart

> I rather suspect that this is a new Chinese painting.


That's certainly one interpretation, and whatever it is, the picture isn't top-class.  Another possibility might be that the face was painted by the artist himself, and the rest completed by juniors working under his direction.  The face isn't at all bad; it's the proportions of the hands and lower body that let the whole thing down.  The sword actually is pretty good, and (I think) identifiable as a P1845/54 - you might not expect that level of accuracy from a modern repro.

How old does the frame look?  That's sometimes a giveaway for a 20th century copy.  The paint also seems in _remarkably_ good conditon...

John

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## J.G. Hopkins

My dad would never call himself an expert regarding anything, but he taugt art for 35 years and has been selling antique oil paintings for 20 years, and collecting them for longer.  Experts can be fooled, no doubt about it.  However, he feels it is a 19th century piece.  The paint shows the cracking that might be expected, and the canvas shows age when the painting is turned over.  The painting has been cleaned.  The frame is not really a reference for a date as frames are changed with fashion, or when one is beyond repair.  If it is a fake, the it has fooled him and the dealer who had it previously.

There are some strange proportions, but I have seen other 19th century paintings with similar anomalies.  Part of the strangeness arises from the angle from which the photo was taken.  This awkward angle probably enhances some of the artistic shortcomings.  Or maybe he really did have unusually small hands.  :Smilie: 

I don't intend for this post to sound defensive.  I am open to it being a fake and the possibility that my father has been fooled.  He is open to it, too, but doesn'y feel that it is the case with this one.

He has a show this weekend, so if it doesn't sell he'll take some additional photos afterwards and send them my way.  

Sorry to bring this so far off topic, it is the Sword Forum, not the Oil Painting Forum!  I just posted this painting because I think it's fun to take a nice full-colo(u)r look at the men who carried the swords we love.

Getting back to the sword, it also appears to have a brass scabbard.  Can anyone remind me of who was allowed to have brass scabbards?  (I am away from my books!)

Thanks,
Jonathan

Added:  Here is another angle on it in the mean time.

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## John Hart

> Getting back to the sword, it also appears to have a brass scabbard.  Can anyone remind me of who was allowed to have brass scabbards?


It was "field officers" (Majors, Lt-Colonels and full Colonels), and in certain circumstances, regimental Adjutants.  Of course it might also be a General Officer pattern, which had a brass scabbard too, but without seeing the cypher on the guard we can't be sure, and I'm not expert enough on uniforms to be able to tell whether he's a General or not!

John

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## J.G. Hopkins

> Of course it might also be a General Officer pattern, which had a brass scabbard too, but without seeing the cypher on the guard we can't be sure, and I'm not expert enough on uniforms to be able to tell whether he's a General or not!


John,
Thanks.  They should have been a little more considerate and had him pose with his hilt more exposed in order to aid us in identification!  My only uniform reference is the Fosten and Fosten book _Thin Red Line_.  I'll take a look through it when I get home.

Jonathan

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## J.G. Hopkins

All I could find in the Fosten book is what looks like a matching epaulette, which is listed as being for a field officer c.1850s.  The book is far from comprehensive, so I was not surprised when I could not find a similar collar or cuffs.

Jonathan

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## hc bright

Aren't those Major's crowns on the epaulets?

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## J.G. Hopkins

> Aren't those Major's crowns on the epaulets?


Sure could be.  I am not familiar with uniforms, marks of rank, etc.  The Fosten book just had similar ones that were labeled "field officer", which probably covers majors(?).  Thanks for providing a bit more detail.

Jonathan

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## David Critchley

During this period _I think_ the definitions are broadly
Company officers - Ensigns, Lieutenants ans Captains
Field Officers - Majors, Lieut. Colonels (and sometimes Colonels)
General Officers (i.e those not attached to Regiments) Major Generals, Lieut Generals and Generals

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## M. Tweel

He is wearing from his left to right:  Waterloo 1815, Military General Service 1793-1814 with 9 campaign clasps and Army of India 1803-1826 with one campaign clasp.

This combination of medals and the number of clasps might narrow the number of possibilities.

Michael

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## M. Tweel

Here is a group showing a trio like the one in the painting.  There is only one clasp on the MGS.  I am not sure if there are 8 or 9 clasps on the MGS in the painting but this medal by itself would be a very nice pickup for a medal collector.   

Unless he is a 14th Light Dragoon (which is not supported by the style of sword or uniform), we can rule out all of the cavalry regiments.  Probably narrow him down by checking to see what regiments served in India and assuming he stayed with the same regiment throughout, which regiment would be entitled to either an 8 or 9 clasp MGS.

If you could confirm the number of clasps on the MGS, it would probably eliminate 10 or more infantry regiments.

Michael

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## M. Tweel

I am advised that there are only 10 officers known to have been issued with this combination of three medals.  If you can confirm the number of clasps on the MGS, we might have a name for you.

Michael

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## J.G. Hopkins

I'll try to do that!  Thanks for all of the fantastic information, Michael.

Jonathan

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