# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Chinese, South-East Asia (CSEA) >  Post the pictures of the antique jians please

## Manouchehr M.

Dear forum members,

I am sure many forum members have either seen and taken pictures of antique jians in museums across the world over the years or have inspected private collections.  I would like to ask anyone to start this thread.  Let us post the pictures of many jians as we know.  I am aware of the fact that many Chinese jians were refitted later, but even those are interesting as we can see the blade length and as well the pattern.

The first jian has new fittings (as far as I know), the blade is antique.  This is one of the most beautiful patterns I have seen on antique jians.

KInd regards

Manouchehr Moshtagh Khorasani

Courtesy of Alex Huangfu

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## Manouchehr M.

I would really appreciate your input on the fittings of the next jian.

Courtesy of Alex Huangfu

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## Manouchehr M.

The next jian:

Courtesy of Oriental Arms

"Chinese straight sword  Jian from the late 19 or early 20 C. The straight blade of flat diamond cross section with a central fuller is 28 inches long with the seven brass dots inlaid �stars� and engraving on its upper part. . Wood grip with white dyed ray skin cover, beautifully engraved brass fitting on a wood scabbard covered also with white dyed ray skin."

I appreciate your input.

BTW is there an engraved image of a dragon on the blade?  Is it a common feature?

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## Manouchehr M.

The next one is a double jian (short swords).  What is the Chinese name for it.  We see the dragon sign again.  This time as brass-inlaid ones.  The steel is pattern-welded steel.

Courtesy of Oriental Arms

"set of two short Chinese straight swords  Jian. Both blades are of half diamond cross section, 22 inches long, forged from good laminated steel and set with the Seven Stars  brass dots and brass inlaid dragons. Horn grips and beautifully engraved brass fittings. Total length 31 inches. No scabbard. "

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## Chris Lampe

I no longer own this jian but will include a few shots.  The blade is the only thing that is antique.

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## Manouchehr M.

> I no longer own this jian but will include a few shots.  The blade is the only thing that is antique.


Thank you very much for sharing.  It is an excellent pattern.

Kind regards

Manouchehr

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## Manouchehr M.

The next one has also a marvellous antique blade.  To me the blades are always the most important part of a sword.  I guess to everyone.  :Smilie: 

Kind regards

Manouchehr

By courtesy of Alex Huangfu

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## josh stout

The Oriental Arms white handled jian is interesting.  It is indeed a dragon chasing the pearl engraved on the blade.  The engraving is not the highest quality, and the whole thing looks like it is a late 19th century production.  The tip is a bit of an unusual shape, but I have seen ones like it before.  The double jian look much nicer.  

Here is what might be called a phoenix pommel jian.  It is quite short but handles nicely.  Unfortunately the picture does not show the pattern on the blade well.
Josh

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## Joe Thompson

> The next one is a double jian (short swords).  What is the Chinese name for it.


Shuang duan jian. Shuang meaning two, duan meaning short.

Here's a couple unusual pieces. The first has an all-brass sheath, and is 19th century if I recall correctly.

The second is has a tubular integral handle. The whole at the base of the blade was probably intended for a guard, which apparently was never attached. I still do not know much about this sword.

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## Chris Lampe

> Shuang duan jian. Shuang meaning two, duan meaning short.
> 
> Here's a couple unusual pieces. The first has an all-brass sheath, and is 19th century if I recall correctly.
> 
> The second is has a tubular integral handle. The whole at the base of the blade was probably intended for a guard, which apparently was never attached. I still do not know much about this sword.


Interesting photos.  The antique jian I posted had a hole in the exact same spot on the blade.  It did have a traditional tang though.  I hope Philip Tom and/or Scott Rodell can comment on this one.

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## Manouchehr M.

> The Oriental Arms white handled jian is interesting.  It is indeed a dragon chasing the pearl engraved on the blade.  The engraving is not the highest quality, and the whole thing looks like it is a late 19th century production.  The tip is a bit of an unusual shape, but I have seen ones like it before.  The double jian look much nicer.  
> 
> Here is what might be called a phoenix pommel jian.  It is quite short but handles nicely.  Unfortunately the picture does not show the pattern on the blade well.
> Josh



Thank you Josh.  Very unusual shape.  That is excellent.  I hope that we can find as many shapes as possible on this thread.  Later we can also post pictures from the museusms and to see how many different types we can find.  Suurely this way we can find out more about jians.  Am I correct to assume that there are two different tips on jians, the rounded ones and the sharp-pointed?

KInd regards

Manouchehr

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## Manouchehr M.

> The Oriental Arms white handled jian is interesting.  It is indeed a dragon chasing the pearl engraved on the blade.  The engraving is not the highest quality, and the whole thing looks like it is a late 19th century production.  The tip is a bit of an unusual shape, but I have seen ones like it before.  The double jian look much nicer.  
> 
> Here is what might be called a phoenix pommel jian.  It is quite short but handles nicely.  Unfortunately the picture does not show the pattern on the blade well.
> Josh


Josh

Could you give more information on the image "the dragon chasing the pearl"?

Kind regards

Manouchehr

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## Manouchehr M.

> Shuang duan jian. Shuang meaning two, duan meaning short.
> 
> Here's a couple unusual pieces. The first has an all-brass sheath, and is 19th century if I recall correctly.
> 
> The second is has a tubular integral handle. The whole at the base of the blade was probably intended for a guard, which apparently was never attached. I still do not know much about this sword.


THank you very much Joe for sharing.

So far (please correct me if I am wrong):

1)  There are two different types of the tips on jians

2)  There are short jians and long jians

3) There are single pieces and pieces which come in a set

Kind regards

Manouchehr

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## Manouchehr M.

This is obviously from the late 19 or the beginning of the 20 century with typical features as far as I know?

Courtesy of Oriental Arms

"This is a short Chinese straight sword  Jian from the late 19 or early 20 C. The straight blade of flat diamond cross section is 18 ź inches long with the seven brass dot inlaid �stars�. Ribbed wood grip, beautifully engraved brass fitting on a wood scabbard covered with green dyed ray skin."

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## josh stout

> Josh
> 
> Could you give more information on the image "the dragon chasing the pearl"?
> 
> Kind regards
> 
> Manouchehr


Well there are a number of interpretations and myths that all give the same general impression.  Here is an excerpt from one art catalogue description I found online:

"(A Dragon or two dragons) ...chasing a flaming pearl is a common motif in Chinese art, portrayed in paintings, and on ceramics, furniture, textiles and accessories. It is believed that the flaming pearl, which represents the moon or rolling thunder, gives the dragons their power and allows them to ascend to heaven. In Buddhism, the dragon pearl symbolizes enlightenment and spiritual essence, and in Chinese mythology, the glowing pearl is regarded as a very precious gem imbuing benevolence and is associated with daylight."  

So the pearl is both a moon and sun symbol, represents desire, and represents transcending desires when obtained.  Sometimes the pearl is called the "pearl of potentiality" so it is the search for love, truth, and spiritual essence.  Without the pearl, the dragon looses all its power.

The dragon/lion dances at the Spring Festival usually involve the dragon chasing the pearl with the luck for the New Year.

In my kung-fu class “chasing the pearl” is the name for when one person holds up their hands and the other person hits the hands to practice targeting.  The targets come in a stream, and the pearl is always the next target rolling down the stream.

Josh

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## josh stout

Here are some shuang jian with an unusual version of the seven stars motif.  It does not show up well in the picture, but there is not only the two-tone inlay, but also a difference in color between the inlays on the two blades.
Josh

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## josh stout

The tips with stars.
Josh

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## Manouchehr M.

Thank you very much Josh for this excellent clarification.  I will check some catalogs to see whether I can find this image on other art object.  I assume that there should be a big variety of the emblem "Dragon chasing a flaming pearl."  Do you know whether this image has changed over time?

Kind regards

Manouchehr




> Well there are a number of interpretations and myths that all give the same general impression.  Here is an excerpt from one art catalogue description I found online:
> 
> "(A Dragon or two dragons) ...chasing a flaming pearl is a common motif in Chinese art, portrayed in paintings, and on ceramics, furniture, textiles and accessories. It is believed that the flaming pearl, which represents the moon or rolling thunder, gives the dragons their power and allows them to ascend to heaven. In Buddhism, the dragon pearl symbolizes enlightenment and spiritual essence, and in Chinese mythology, the glowing pearl is regarded as a very precious gem imbuing benevolence and is associated with daylight."  
> 
> So the pearl is both a moon and sun symbol, represents desire, and represents transcending desires when obtained.  Sometimes the pearl is called the "pearl of potentiality" so it is the search for love, truth, and spiritual essence.  Without the pearl, the dragon looses all its power.
> 
> The dragon/lion dances at the Spring Festival usually involve the dragon chasing the pearl with the luck for the New Year.
> 
> In my kung-fu class chasing the pearl is the name for when one person holds up their hands and the other person hits the hands to practice targeting.  The targets come in a stream, and the pearl is always the next target rolling down the stream.
> ...

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## Manouchehr M.

> Here are some shuang jian with an unusual version of the seven stars motif.  It does not show up well in the picture, but there is not only the two-tone inlay, but also a difference in color between the inlays on the two blades.
> Josh


Thank you very much for sharing.  Could you please give a close-up of the handles?

Kind regards

Manouchehr

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## josh stout

> Thank you very much Josh for this excellent clarification.  I will check some catalogs to see whether I can find this image on other art object.  I assume that there should be a big variety of the emblem "Dragon chasing a flaming pearl."  Do you know whether this image has changed over time?
> 
> Kind regards
> 
> Manouchehr


If you look for it, you will see this image everywhere.  It has been in more or less the same form at least through the Ming, but I don't know about before that.  Certainly the dragon image is ubiquitous in Chinese culture as far back as there is a Chinese culture.  I dated the engraving not from iconographic details but from the way it was done.  The shallow somewhat hurried looking engraving is typical of late nineteenth century work.  I have a northern dao from the same period with almost exactly the same kind of engraving.  
Josh

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## Manouchehr M.

> If you look for it, you will see this image everywhere.  It has been in more or less the same form at least through the Ming, but I don't know about before that.  Certainly the dragon image is ubiquitous in Chinese culture as far back as there is a Chinese culture.  I dated the engraving not from iconographic details but from the way it was done.  The shallow somewhat hurried looking engraving is typical of late nineteenth century work.  I have a northern dao from the same period with almost exactly the same kind of engraving.  
> Josh


Thanks Josh.  Could you please post a pic of that dragon on your dao?  Thank you very much.

Kind regards

Manouchehr

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## Joe Thompson

> THank you very much Joe for sharing.
> 
> So far (please correct me if I am wrong):
> 
> 1)  There are two different types of the tips on jians
> 
> 2)  There are short jians and long jians
> 
> 3) There are single pieces and pieces which come in a set
> ...


1) Yes, there are two different tip styles for jian. I do not know if there is a specific Chinese term distinguishing the two, but they are commonly referred to as being the "male" tip (pointy) and the "female" tip (rounded).

2) Close, but you are missing one catagory. They are:
-Duan Jian (short jian)
-Jian (normal-sized jian)
-Shuang shou Jian (two handed jian, with shuang meaning two, and shou meaning hand)

3) Yes, there is the common single jian, and there is the set of two jian which fit into one sheath. These are known as Shuang Jian (two jian).

I hope I've been a help.

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## josh stout

I have heard the same things about the two tip types, but I am only repeating hearsay.  The triangle shaped tips are male, and the round-shouldered tips coming to a point are female.  There is at least one more type the "cangfeng" jian as depicted here with a completely round tip.
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...light=cangfeng
Josh

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## Manouchehr M.

Another jian.

I really appreciate your input.

Courtesy of Alex Hunagfu

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## Manouchehr M.

Another jian.

Courtesy of Alex Hunagfu

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## josh stout

That is a very high quality jian.  Usually the "theta" type guards, or at least the ones I have seen on SFI, are not such high quality.  There was a previous discussion of these guards found on dao and jian of minority origin, but this one looks pure Han. 
Josh

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## Tomas Marlow

I happen to own those twin swords from Oriental Arms...
And, yes, They're beatiful. I would however consider swapping them for a really good, all original, long, antique jian....  :Smilie: 

"set of two short Chinese straight swords Jian. Both blades are of half diamond cross section, 22 inches long, forged from good laminated steel and set with the Seven Stars brass dots and brass inlaid dragons. Horn grips and beautifully engraved brass fittings. Total length 31 inches. No scabbard. "

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## josh stout

Close-ups of the hilts on the set of seven star shuang jian shown previously by me:
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation338.jpg

These are from a province north of Sichuan near the Tibetan border.

And another close-up of the blade:
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation342.jpg
Notice the large folding lines reminiscent of Tibetan construction techniques.  Also notice the bi-color stars sometimes found on items with Tibetan influence.

Another set of shuang jian with welded iron fittings in perhaps a Ming style.  The image on the guards may be influenced by Tibetan stylistic elements.  It shows a lion with the character "wang" (king) on the forehead and traces of gilding with over painting in red:
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation346.jpg

The pommels showing lotus blossoms:
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation347.jpg

Josh

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## Manouchehr M.

Thanks Josh for sharing.  Could you post a picture of the whole jian?

KInd regards

Manouchehr

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## josh stout

Well unfortunately I don’t have a view of the total shuang jian in my files but I do have all the parts.

Jian are usually secured by peening over the tang and then putting a hollow peg through the handle.  Those pegs are found at certain spots that I suspect correspond to harmonics from the vibrations that run from the blade into the hilt.  In this case the shuang jian have been riveted together.  The rivets fall on all of the spots where pegs and other attachment points are found.

I think that is the original mill scale on the inside of the handle, which would most likely put this set of jian as late Qing.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation343.jpg

You can see both the sanmai construction and the effects of differential heat treatment at the edges.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation345.jpg

I think these tips have been reshaped a bit, but I am not sure how much.  The triangular tip matches the general Ming style of the fittings.  However, they clearly are no longer symmetrical.  The Ming style in a late Qing piece makes me wonder if it had anything to do with one of the many anti Qing rebellions.  These swords have certainly seen some action.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation344.jpg

Josh

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