# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  Police Swords

## George Wheeler

Gentlemen,

I have an interest in police swords and I wondered if anyone else had a similar interest or any examples of police swords that they could show?

I picked up a Württemberg Polizei-Wachtmeister-Säbel today that I have been trying to find for some time.  I already had the Württemberg-Polizei-Mannschaft-Säbel for policemen but I did not have the sword for Sergeants until today.  I will get a photograph and post it shortly.

Until then, I will show the Weimar Republic period Württ. Pol. enlisted men's sword that is identical except for the blade length and the drag on the scabbard.  This enlisted police sword has a nickel hilt and bright steel blade made by WKC.  The black celuloid grip is not wound with wire and the sword has a leather Fingerschlaufe inside the guard.  The black leather scabbard has nickeled fittings and the bottom fitting has a ball end and no drag.  The green wool Troddel is correct for this police sword.

Anyone with other police swords that they can show?

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## George Wheeler

OK...  Here are some photos of my new Württemberg Polizei Sword for Sergeants.  

Here are the two swords shown side-by-side.  You will notice that both swords are made by WKC showing the differences between them.  The enlisted sword has no grip wire while the NCO sword does.  The enlisted sword is shorter than the NCO sword.  The enlisted sword has no drag on the bottom fitting while the NCO sword does.

The enlisted sword is shown in the WKC catalog as their Nr.812 while the NCO sword is their catalog Nr.813.  

Also notice that the uncleaned NCO sword is missing part of the Fingerschlaufe that is still in place on the cleaned up enlisted sword with the Troddel.  The NCO sword also has a matching serial number "1" on the guard and upper scabbard fitting.  Both scabbard fittings also have matching assembly numbers that differ from the issue serial number of "1" on the sword and scabbard.  These police swords very often have police armorer applied issue numbers like these from each department or precinct where the swords were issued.  One will also sometimes find Württ Pol property markings consisting of an antler over a P stamped into the blade of these swords.

George

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## J.G. Hopkins

Were these police swords worn as a regular part of the uniform, or were they for dress only?  The hilts seem to echo those of early 19th century infantry briquets, IMO.

Jonathan

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## George Wheeler

Jonathan,

These German Police swords were worn as part of the everyday uniform.  In Imperial and Weimar Zeit Germany, the norm was for the issue of short swords to the police for use as a weapon.  The hilt could be used as an impact weapon with the pommel or the guard.  The blade was usually issued blunt but blades will also be found that are carefully period sharpened.  This allowed the side of the blade to be used as an impact weapon or the edge to be used as a cutting weapon.  

Here is the hilt of another German Police short sword that has a ball pommel.  This is an impact point that concentrates the blow into one small area and this same ball will also be found on police batons.  

There are a whole series of these distinctive short swords that were police issue in the various German states.  While these swords are from Württemberg, there are other distinctive styles from Prussia, Bavaria, Saxony, etc.  

George

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## George Wheeler

I forgot to mention that the 1920s policeman shown above is a member of the Braunschweig Sicherheitspolizei.  This period postcard clearly shows the short sword in wear while directing traffic.  This nickled short sword with a nickeled P guard was worn in a belt frog.

Here is another example of the Braunschweig Police sword, but this one is a bit earlier from prior to the end of WWI.  This nickeled sword has characteristics of many German Police short swords from Imperial times.  Notice the metal D shaped hilt and grip and the slab sided blade.  Also notice that the lower scabbard ring has been removed to comply with post 1909 regulations that changed suspension from two saber slings to one sword hanger.  This sword is property stamped with the Braunschweig rearing horse that was used by the police until 1922.  

If there is any interest, I can show other police swords from different German states.  

George

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## A.Wilco

I was told that this one is a "Constable's Sword",
Does that make it a Police sword as well?

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## Dmitry Z~G

Not to butt in George's thread, but what you have is  a variant of the British weapon that was in use by the constabulary, prison guards, Thames Police and possibly the Customs. I was told that if there is a button-sprung catch on the reverse side of the counter-guard, it is a prison guard's weapon. 
They are usually not marked.

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## A.Wilco

Thanks Dmitry 
Mine has the spring catch and a rack number stamped on the brass knucklebow.
Do you know what time frame these would have been in use?

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## Dmitry Z~G

I'd say 1840s-1890s. In one word - Victorian.  :Smilie:

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## George Wheeler

Dmitry is quite right.  I would classify these swords as "police swords" but I suppose the more correct description would probably be "law enforcement swords" in today's vernacular.  "Constabulary swords" is probably more historically correct since they often do pre-date the Peelers and Coppers who came with the general police reforms in England.  

Some will have the police department (i.e. LE agency) name etched onto the blade and some will not.  Most will have the press button spring scabbard retention, although these are often broken and removed.  These "constabulary swords" are interesting in that they are much like the German Police swords of the period and served as weapons in the same manner.  English Police enlisted short swords like this typically had no wire wrap on the grip and had leather scabbards with metal fittings for wear with a frog.  

Thanks for showing yours!  

George

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## David Critchley

HM prison service  carried them too. You often find them with the prison name etched on the blade. The Prison Service College in Newbold Revel used to have a display of the sidearms and pistols carried by warders.

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## J.G. Hopkins

MDL have (or had recently) a Gold Coast Prison sword which is a P1897 infantry officer's sword.  I thought that was rather unique.

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## A.Wilco

Thank You George and all for the information.
This sword is actually very well balanced and feels great in my hand,a very comfortable sword

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## George Wheeler

You are welcome.  There are quite a few variations of these English Constabulary short swords.  Some with brass and some with steel fittings.  We seldom find these on the US side of the pond and they are generally in poor condition, having seen hard use in their service to the Queen.  That just proves the point that these police short swords were service weapons rather than made for dress wear.

I would now like to show a couple of the more interesting German Police swords that cover the Imperial, Weimar, & NS Zeit time periods.  The Saxon Police utilized a series of long and short swords over time.  They used two standard length police swords, one with a lion head and one with a plain dove head pommel.  These swords will be found in Waffenfabrik catalogs up until around 1938.  The Saxons also used these same hilts mounted on short slab sided blades that were straight, while the longer swords were curved in the normal manner.  During the early days of the NS Zeit some short swords were cut down into Seitengewehre and worn until the standardized police bayonet was adopted for the Nationalized police after 1936.  

Here are some examples of the plain pommel Saxon Police short sword and sidearm.  Notice that they have no langet.  These are an item of issue and have property markings on the guard.

I will post the lion head example later.

George

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## Greg Nehring

Very informative George.  I only have one of the bayonets.  It is regimentally marked but I have no idea as to whome.  Please more of you collection!

Regards,

Greg

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## George Wheeler

Thank you Greg.   :Big Grin: 

I forgot to mention that some examples of this sword will be found with wide fullers in the blade.   The example shown with a nickel hilt and slab sided blade is Imperial while the example with a gold hilt and wide fullered blade is from the time of the Weimar Republic.  Generally speaking, German Police short swords with white metal hilts were for municipal police while those with yellow metal hilts were for rural police.  The Saxon Portepee is green and white to mimic the Saxon State colors.  The rather convoluted tie for the knot is correct for the Saxon Polizei.  

Here are a couple of photos of a Waffenfabrik catalog page from my book, "Seitengewehr; History of the German Bayonet 1919-1945" as well as some unit markings.  There is also a photo of this sword (the lion head example) in wear by a Saxon Gendarm, taken from a period Saxon Police manual.  We old retired policemen used to call this maneuver, giving a guy the "bums rush."  Of course this is no longer politically correct but was perfectly OK when this photo was taken and the technique taught to policemen.  Neat helmet don't you think?  

Let me know your police markings and I will see if I can decypher them for you if you like.

George

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## Mark McMorrow

The pic on the right is disturbing on so many levels...

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## George Wheeler

Yes, you are absolutly right Mark.  But... still it is a nice helmet.   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Anyway, here are a few photos of the lion head Saxon Police short sword that this fellow is wearing.  

This short sword is Imperial and notice the impact ball pommel on the top of the lionhead.  Also, notice the Saxon coat of arms on the guard.  The shortened Seitengewehr is from the early NS time period and is made from the lionhead short sword in the same manner as the previous dove head sidearm.  

George

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## J.B. Angiulo

It does give a good idea of why their society was so orderly, though...

Mr. Wheeler, many thanks for such a deeply informative thread about an under-addressed topic! I wonder how many of us have seen one of these at some point and passed it over, out of ignorance? I myself recently picked up a short d-guard hanger with a "latch-back" blade and a stepped pommel, the grip and pommel covered with leather; I had suspected it to be a cutlass of some sort, but now I'm thinking it could be something else...

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## George Wheeler

You are certainly welcome to the information.  I enjoy discussing edged weapons with others who also like them.  I usually learn as much as I give in these exchanges.

Just so no one thinks that all police swords are enlisted items of issue, I will show a private purchase officer sword for the Ecuador Police.

This sword was made sometime between the wars by WKC and was exported to Ecuador.  A small South American country, these national police swords are scarce.  

The brown leather knot is correct for this particular sword acording to the WKC export catalog.  The hilt and fittings are nickel and the grip is celluloid.  The sword bears a similarity to the US 1902 Officer sword but it has the Ecuadorian crest in the guard.  This is a high quality police officer sword.

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## Mark McMorrow

Hey George,

How's this for a 'police' sword?  :Big Grin:

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## David Critchley

Or these (sorry for the pic quality)

From Mervyn Mitton's book "A Policeman's Lot"


From Thomas Del Mar catalogue Dec 2006

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## George Wheeler

David,

Thanks for the pictures of the Victorian police swords.  The photos show the general nature, and wide variety, of these swords.  I love the Whitechapel Police sword.  I can almost hear the footsteps of Jack the Ripper being pursued by a copper wearing this sword.

Mark,

Oh, I do like that PC sword!  A very scarce sword.  It took me years of searching to find one of these.   :drool: 

The Philippine Constabulary Officer sword was almost identical to the US 1902 Officer sword.  It was distinguished by the impact ball (i.e. capstan nut) on the pommel and a slightly different backstrap with a thumb rest.  The grip was also different in that it is wound nickel wire instead of black wood or plastic.  Wood and leather did not survive well in the Philippines.  The Philippine Constabulary sword also had the PC badge on the upper section of the scabbard and etched on the blade.

This particular sword was made by Baron in Solingen and the knot (identical to the US officer dress sword knot) is original to the sword.  The Constabulary was originally officered by US Army officers.  The turn of the century postcard shows some PC troopers and their officers.  

George

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## Mark McMorrow

Hi George,

Mine is a different maker with stronger engraving (will post more pics Friday...).  Actually, the Philippine Constabulary was a 'police' force in name only (being called such out of political expedience).  They were more like irregular infantry and the patrol tactics they developed are groundbreaking from the perspective of asymmetrical jungle warfare.  For additional reading, 'Jungle Patrol' by Vic Hurley is absolutely fantastic.  Out of print since 1938, an original copy will set you back around $300.  A soft cover reprint run was done in Manila in the 1980s, but even the reprints are impossible to find.  

Here's a PC officer (Major, to be specific) with sword in wear.  The knot appears to be braided black leather.

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## J.G. Hopkins

Those "PC" swords are really quite attractive.  I would not mind adding one to my collection.  Did the US have any other similar units in its other colonies?

Jonathan

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## Mark McMorrow

Hey Jonathan,

It would be great if you could find one.  Truth is they are one of the rarest US swords.

You'll find a number of strange non-national American units if you dig around.  Hawaiian, Samoan, a Shanghai Volunteer outfit, etc.  Homer Lea actually recruited a regiment of Chinese ex patriots in San Francisco to serve in the Imperial Reform Army in 1903.  Attached is a pic of General Lea.  His one-of-a-kind sword is based on a US Model 1902 with a rather unique guard.  

BTW George, in your postcard, you'll notice a rather slight officer in the middle.  I believe this is Leonard Furlong.  He's quite well known for his exploits among the Moro.

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## J.G. Hopkins

Mark,
Thank you for the additional information and that great image!

Jonathan

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## Mark McMorrow

My pleasure  :Smilie:

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## George Wheeler

Mark,

Great cabinet photo of the PC sword in wear.  It looks like he is wearing the leather service slings (instead of the chain hanger) and knot (instead of the gilt wire dress knot).  I look forward to seeing the closeups of your sword.  

I know nothing of Furlong, so now I will have to go on an information quest.  Thanks! 

You are correct, of course, that the Constabulary was considered as part of the military in the Philippines.  Of course, this is the way it is in most of the world.  The police are nationalized and considered to be part of the military services, particulary rural Gendarmerie/Constabulary units.  The US Constabulary that was stood up in Occupied Germany from 1946-1952 traced its roots to the Philippine Constabulary and the Constabulary School at Sonthofen Bavaria had buildings and areas named after Filipino place names.  These Constabulary Troopers were all regular soldiers and were formed from existing US Army units in 1946.

As an answer to Johanthan, there were other Police forces in the Philippines in addition to the rural Constabulary.  The Manilla Police for example and here is a postcard of the Penal Colony Police on the island of Palawan.  This interesting police force was recruited from the convict colonists and were fully armed.  Once again, officered by Americans, the children on the right of the photo are sons and daughters of the prisoners.  

George

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## A.Wilco

Speaking of Moro,
This might have been what Leonard Furlong would have had to face in a confrontation,However I think is was more of a Chief's blade than a warrior's
My best Ethnographic Piece






And now back to your regurlerly scheduled thread,sorry for the intrusion ,I just couldn't resist a chance to show it off

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## George Wheeler

Thanks for the diversion...  a neat sword.  I understand that some of these blades were made from metiorites and were believed to have magical qualities because of the heavenly metal.  

You know, I do now remember Furlong.  I had forgotten about his Constabulary exploits and subsequent courts martial.  A fascinating soldier.

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## George Wheeler

Back on track with a Japanese Police Officer sword.  These are much more scarce than one would think as most of the swords offered for sale as police swords are in fact the more common Japanese Army Officer parade sword.  

The sword shown is for a high ranking officer as indicated by the amount of decoration on the backstrap.  The more decoration on the backstrap the higher rank the officer.  The police badge is also seen on the back of the pommel.  This distinctive five pointed star is quite different than the cherryblossom (sakura) emblem found on army swords.  Two examples of the police badge are shown.  The sakura on a lower ranking Army Officer parade sword is shown as the last photograph to show the difference.

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## Ron Z

> Thanks for the diversion... a neat sword. I understand that some of these blades were made from metiorites and were believed to have magical qualities because of the heavenly metal


.



i believe you're confusing moro krises with indonesian krises. wilco's example is of moro origin. the ones that are supposedly nade out of meteorites are indonesian.

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## Robert Wilkinson-Latham

> Dmitry is quite right.  I would classify these swords as "police swords" but I suppose the more correct description would probably be "law enforcement swords" in today's vernacular.  "Constabulary swords" is probably more historically correct since they often do pre-date the Peelers and Coppers who came with the general police reforms in England.  
> 
> Some will have the police department (i.e. LE agency) name etched onto the blade and some will not.  Most will have the press button spring scabbard retention, although these are often broken and removed.  These "constabulary swords" are interesting in that they are much like the German Police swords of the period and served as weapons in the same manner.  English Police enlisted short swords like this typically had no wire wrap on the grip and had leather scabbards with metal fittings for wear with a frog.  
> 
> Thanks for showing yours!  
> 
> George


Here's a picture from the 1867 Illustrated London News showing "Constables at Cutlass Practice, Wellington Barracks(London)

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## George Wheeler

> .
> 
> 
> 
> i believe you're confusing moro krises with indonesian krises. wilco's example is of moro origin. the ones that are supposedly nade out of meteorites are indonesian.


Ron,

You are probably right.  I am afraid that I know little to nothing about indigenous native swords.  My interest over the years has been in the more "modern" military and police swords that are a result of the industrial revolution.  Of course, I also prefer machine made antique Eastlake furniture to handmade Pennsylvania Dutch.  But, to each their own I guess.

Robert,

Thank you for posting the illustration showing the local London Constabulary at cutlass practice.  It just reenforces the notion that these swords were not only for show but were intended for practical use by the police.  

Here are a couple of examples of the Imprial German Police cutlass or Schutzmannssäbel.  One is white metal worn in a frog while the other is yellow metal worn on slings.

George

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## hc bright

Well since the Philippines were our only colony...

The only one with an active insurgency requiring a gendarmery force. The U. S. organised similar forces during interventions in Haiti, Nicaragua, and other places.

And still do so.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0310-07.htm

Of course we had an Indian police force in the West, too.

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## George Wheeler

I wanted to bring this thread back to the top in order to ask a question about the Philippine Constabulary Major photo that Mark posted.  I have an example of the PC sword belt that the Major is wearing but it is unmarked and I am trying to date the PC sword and accouterments more closely than simply circa 1902-1938.  

Does anyone know when the Constabulary went from this belt with the interlocking round buckle to the Sam Browne belt with the open buckle?  Can we date this particular photo?

George

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## Curt Cummins

> Here is another example of the Braunschweig Police sword, but this one is a bit earlier from prior to the end of WWI.  This nickeled sword has characteristics of many German Police short swords from Imperial times.  Notice the metal D shaped hilt and grip and the slab sided blade.  Also notice that the lower scabbard ring has been removed to comply with post 1909 regulations that changed suspension from two saber slings to one sword hanger.  This sword is property stamped with the Braunschweig rearing horse that was used by the police until 1922.  
> 
> 
> George


George,

I saw swords very similar to this one being used for riot control in Bogota, Colombia by mounted police.  This would have been around 1963 or 64.  The gendarmes were striking the rioters across the face and back with the flat of the blade and dispersed the crowd quite handily. The rioters were terrified of the horses and swords.

I was 14 at the time and was caught in downtown Bogota during a major political upheaval.  It was an experience that I have never forgotten.

Curt

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## George Wheeler

> George,
> 
> I saw swords very similar to this one being used for riot control in Bogota, Colombia by mounted police.  This would have been around 1963 or 64.  The gendarmes were striking the rioters across the face and back with the flat of the blade and dispersed the crowd quite handily. The rioters were terrified of the horses and swords.
> 
> I was 14 at the time and was caught in downtown Bogota during a major political upheaval.  It was an experience that I have never forgotten.
> 
> Curt


Curt,

You are absolutly right about these swords being used by the Columbian Police.  As a matter of fact they also had the metal band in the center of the scabbard like this Braunschweig Polizei sword.  The Columbians were trained by German advisors so much of their military and police equipments look German.  The Columbian Police swords are brass and the flat slab sided blades are etched with "Policia National" and were worn in frogs.  

George

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## W. Kroncke

i just picked this one up on ebay recently, 



arrived wed. i think it looks like a police hanger, has a button catch release. the metal parts, inc. the blade are all chrome plated, any markings are i gather under the plating. the grip is wood, any covering or wire wrap is long gone. would appreciate any info y'all might be able to provide. (sword knot added by me to tart it up a bit). what would the grip have been covered with originally? leather/ray skin/etc., would it be wrapped with twisted wire in the groove? is the plating a sign it was a dress/parade weapon?

Blade len. 24 in. (61cm.)

width at guard 1 1/4 in.

thickness at guard 7.28mm., at start of fuller, 6.73mm., distal tapering overall to 4.41 at just before the double edged spear point (the last 8 1/2 in.) starts. guard-pommel is 5 1/4 in. pommel is rounded and tang is peened over and smoothed to match the pommel. blade is unsharpened.

scabbard was not included.

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## George Wheeler

Yes, you have a British Police sword or hanger.  Most of these swords originally had the scabbard catch that held the sword tightly in the scabbard.  Your flat spring catch is intact, although you will often find them broken off from years of use.  The grip would probably have been covered in sharkskin or rayskin but these were almost never wound with wire, although they look as though they should be.  The original finish would have been polished steel that was finished bright.  Oftentimes, the police department name was etched on the blade.  I think the plating is simply a later addition to make it look pretty.  It does look pretty all tarted up.

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## W. Kroncke

thanks, george.

my other 'police' hanger/cutlass is the dutch klewang,
carried by the dutch military police in their battles with the acehnese, when they ran out of bullets and got down to cold steel, they found the local sikin pedangs 

more effective against their longer european swords, so the general had these made up in solingen originally, then moved production to hembrug. the US navy had a number made for the dutch in ww2 and used them themselves as cutlasses, the mfg. 'cold steel' now makes a copy as well. mine is one of the original solingen made Dutch Marechaussee sabres. it was confiscated from the dutch by the german navy in ww2 and used on their schnell boots in the channel, where it was 'liberated' by the royal navy. one of my father in laws was a british mtb captain who fought the s-boats there, lost a leg doing it too, so it has some provenance.

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## J.G. Hopkins

George,
I just re-watched "The Illusionist" starring Ed Norton and Jessica Biel.  The excellent film is set in Austria in the early 20th century, and the movie is rife with police officers and their swords.  I couldn't help but think of you as I watched, wondering if they had the correct swords and knots.  To my untrained eye they looked pretty good.

Jonathan

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## George Wheeler

> George,
> I just re-watched "The Illusionist" starring Ed Norton and Jessica Biel.  The excellent film is set in Austria in the early 20th century, and the movie is rife with police officers and their swords.  I couldn't help but think of you as I watched, wondering if they had the correct swords and knots.  To my untrained eye they looked pretty good.
> 
> Jonathan


Jonathan,

Yes, actually those Austrian Police uniforms were pretty authentic.  I have slept since I saw that movie but I generally look at such things too and I don't remember having much of a difficulty with the uniforms, except for the sword with the jewel in the blade.  

Here are a couple of examples of Austrian Polizei swords.  First an example of a long Officer sword (other styles were also worn) and a short enlisted sword.  The Army wore gold color knots with a fringed ball while the Police wore silver color knots.  Silver knots with a closed ball (Quaste) were worn by enlisted policemen and the eagle/cypher/red-white-red cockade colors all appear on the stem of the knots depending upon the time period.

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## Manuel Luis Iravedra

You can say that again. It reminds me when I did that to an abusive patient...

: ) 





> The pic on the right is disturbing on so many levels...

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## Tom Carr

[QUOTE=David Critchley;966436]Or these (sorry for the pic quality)

From Mervyn Mitton's book "A Policeman's Lot"


I have a short sword similar to #4. It has a shortened 1796 LCS blade but no other markings other than Gills on the spine. I wish that picture was clearer. I'll have to look for that book.

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