# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  Starr 1818 Infantry/Artillery Straight Sword

## Glen C.

This is a type that had been on a long list for some years and when a relative bargain showed up, I had to pull the trigger before it found another home. I have to thank Dale Martin for mentioning the dealer because I have seen some other terrific values pass through, I had almost bought an 1816 glaive but missed it by not being intent about it. accolades aside now, we look at one of these funny looking little swords.




Twenty-six inches of blade, the width makes it seem shorter. This is a broad blade for its length. The unstopped fuller goes out about 19" and the blade grind does not exhibit a back edge towards the point but the fairly linear distal taper thins out more quickly after the fuller and the cross section at the point down to 1mm. Just shy of 1 1/4" wide at the guard.




With the scabbard and frog, the whole of it weighs just over two pounds, with the sword itself about 1lb 6oz. There is a bend and rease in the scabbard, many blade nicks and no blade washer but the frog with it seems quite old and seems to have always been there. I have no idea whether it was a pattern specific to the sword but has kind of petrified on the scabbard after the many decades.




The grip leather is quite complete and preserved. Someone had collection tangs on both the sword and scabbard, so seemingly from a previous serious collector. Thre is nothing for me to try to undo or add to this one except to enjoy a very light and handy feeling sidearm.  Not unique to Starr swords but worth mentioning if not familiar is that the tangs are threaded with a cutlery nut, not unlike what we see on a lot of 20th century Solingen type hunting knives. My antique Canon doesn't do terrific macro as snapshots but if I spent the time with manual settings and a tripod, even at 3 megapixels would be better than a quickie.



Abstracting from what I read of the very old Starr notes are that there were 4,000 of these ordered but after just one sent in 1818, 2,000 were delivered in 1819 and those all marked to Luther Sage.  Then in 1820, the final 1,000 were delivered. Some of those marked JN fo John Newbury and some marked Elisha Tobey. From the Hicks book, (1940 Nathan Starr), I see Tobey only marking those 1820 swords and nothing else. I have though seen Starr 1818 pattern cavalry swords marked by Tobey, so there is probably more to his history than just the Hicks volume.



There is no date imprint, so all we have to go on are the Hicks notes. There are some other neat and less common Starr swords that coould be a niche of collecting all by themselves. At some point in time I will be looking for one of the older 1812 pattern cavalry pieces but certainly some of the other infantry and cutlass patterns would put a smile on my face. The 1818 "nco" as these get listed, is one I have watched for a long time.

Cheers

Hotspur; _the older Rose infantry swords as well something I watch to trip over_

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## Roy Hamilton

Very,very nice Glen!

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## Sean Scott

That is a very nice example.  Congrats on the find!

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## George Wheeler

An outstanding example, particularly with such a nice scabbard and frog.  This style of sword was well below my radar before you came up with it.  Thanks for sharing!

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## Glen C.

Thanks guys.

This fits in well to my collecting of straight infantry and artillery types. Older spadroons are a passion but this shorter straight job fill a crack between earlier straight hangers and the later militia swords I had been accumulating last year. The simpler non-commissioned or junior officer types of swords really do attract me as mmore purposeful and without the decorated blades.

I could only hesitate a few minutes when seeing it listed, The odds of finding an example that has most of the better points are becoming fewer on the path. I was astounded to see it listed at a value, as some with scabbards and any jappaning at all are reaching four figures.

Peterson's bible shows the two Starr infantry swords  (examples 7 and 8). The 1813 model has a sheet counterguard and is similar to the Rose swords of his general form. These, in turn kind of hearken back to the European hangers going back to the early 18th century.  There are probably a few ways to add to a collection with such.  Starr only examples or like me, kind of concentrating on the straight jobs of early modern militaria in America's past. I don't think though that I will find the Starr and Rose swords as available as the 1840s-1850s militia swords have been. I am certainly not out to replicate the medicus collection but I seem to find a good number of what I do collect on those pages.

I don't recall ever having seen a frog with one before this one, so I have no comparison to another. The loops for a belt are very small and I don't see than something more than an inch wide would have been passed through them. MAybe as wide as 1 1/2" wide which might have been more realistic.  Perhaps it was only part of a baldric system.

Cheers

Hotspur; _a nice addition for the interbellum period. There was actually a lot going on in the years following the exchange with England. Too late for that war, which is probably why the original contract fell short in completion_

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## J.G. Hopkins

Great find, Glen.  We don't see too many of these early contract swords here at SFI.  Thanks for sharing anr Congrats on a great purchase.

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## Glen C.

Thanks Jonathan.

I consider myself somewhat lucky to have spotted this one quiet weekend.  Stewarts Militaria definitely a site to watch regularly.

This sword model is also a chance to learn about being careful of some obscure reproductions. Thre is now a very good looking reproduction of the Starr 1812 contract sabers. I have also seen a couple of the 1818 nco types being done but I think they were in decades past.  Attached here are pictures of one, and another true to form for comparison. Very much a case where some time reading and learning before buying will pay off and hopefully keep a novice from making a serious mistake.

Cheers

Hotspur; _obvious side by side but not so if unfamiliar and without examples to compare_

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## morgan butler

Hello Glenn,
I just acquired a Starr NCO sword as well. I'm quite excited about it. However the blade appears un-marked. (It hasn't arrived yet). Do you know of any instances where these swords might have unmarked blades?
Regards,
Morgan

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## Eric Fairbanks

Nice catch Morgan and I was your adversary on this one. It is styled like the m1818 nco infantry - artillery and is a Starr product but without inspector stamp or proof marks is possibly a militia or more likely an example sword. Col. G. Bomford ordered 15 or 25 of these in 1828. I would guess others were sent to states as Starr tried to sell to state militias when his sword contracts fell off if I recall correctly. It has the pattern 26 inch blade but the fuller runs into the tang which is not standard for these. The blade also has a slight upward curve which would indicate it was hand forged with out the help of a rolling hammer. The wire wrap would be a later addition perhaps even modern to give it confederate appeal would be my guess. Definitely not a Starr trait. The grip and guard in better than average condition is a big plus. I would be interested in the false edge measurements.  Another truly unusual Starr and a very nice find. Congratulations,  Eric

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## morgan butler

Thanks for all the splendid and complete info, oh my worthy opponent.  I only bid at the last 2 seconds because I knew that there had to be another discerning collector who knew what this was, lurking nearby. I knew there was a story when I could find no markings on the blade. Another difference that I found out was that this blade is slenderer than the usual Starr NCO. From what I have researched the width at the forte on most was 1.25 inches. Mine is 1. 1/8, which is more like a standard spadroon blade. ( I almost didn't bid because I wanted a wider-bladed example) I am curious to see what it feels like in the hand. Also the guard seems wider at the cross piece than others but that could merely be my perception from photo's. Do you think the fact that because it was an "example sword" and made without the rolling hammer, that it was made with less care/quality?
Regards,
Morgan

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## Eric Fairbanks

Morgan, In my mind Nathan Starr made no junk or inferior swords. He did have a bit of a run in with Henry H. Perkins on the m1812 but on most points I think Starr correct. Nippes, Henkels and Henery are secondary to Winner, Rose and Starr in quality as far as I can see. If your blade is more spadroonish It would be more convincing a Col. Bomford example sword. Also fatter grips towards the pommel seem to be a later Starr trait. I attached a page from Hicks, Starr book.  Eric

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## morgan butler

Thanks for all the great info Eric. While I was hoping for an earlier example I'm sure I'll have no regrets when it arrives, hopefully this upcoming Tuesday. I'll let you know what I think/find then.
Best,
Morgan

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## Glen C.

I suppose iI should post pictures of mine. I had hosted an awful lot on Opera that are gone from threads on boards. Mine had been a relative bargain, spotted it at Stewart's Militaria at a price not to be missed. The only fault (if you could call it such) is some nicking.  It shows well on the table with my French troupe de marine hanger.  Two very similar side arms a century apart.

Eric would be most familiar with these.

Cheers

Hotspur; _This goes out to the show this weekend but it rarely gets much attention without explanation_

Well most of them uploaded, anyway. The system compressor often leads to small pics. Open the image below in a seperate tab for a larger view.  

This Chromebook is lacking in a few traits when searching my files. I have many images of the 1818 short swords, as well as the reproduction shown. There may be more than one batch of the reproductions.

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## morgan butler

These will be great pics to compare and contrast with when mine arrives. Thanks Glen, great looking NCO sword!

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## morgan butler

The blade on mine has a definitely un-uniform appearance.  Also, the fuller doesn't run for as far down the blade as others I have seen. Almost makes it look like some kind of vague drop-point....

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## Eric Fairbanks

Nice nco Glenn, in excellent shape and few are. Morgan, I would be most interested to see fuller, false edge, guard and hilt measurements.  A photo of blade with straight edge next to it. Sadly I know little of these and the m1818 calvary model other than basics. I am in middle of deer season but will try to post photos of my nco's. They are truly a rare sword that is often overlooked. Eric

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## Glen C.

I'll sit down at the tower in the next weeks and upload what other 1818 pictures I have. I posted some specs in the lead post. Perhaps in setting up or breaking down over the weekend, I'll get some more picture work done. It is amazing how like the old French hanger the Rose pattern was.

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## Eric Fairbanks

Hicks list 3000 m1818 but Bernard Prue list sword bills to US for infantry swords 1000 each on july 2, 1819, sept 9 1819, nov 12, 1819 and feb 29, 1820. I think Hicks got this one wrong and all 4000 were delivered. Interesting tid bit on the Rose sword but no photos on page. Can you elaberate futher.? Regards Eric

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## Glen C.

I have pictures of an article from Man at Arms





Also a snippet from a Lewis&Clark order



There is bits of information on the Rose swords in the usual books such as the Medicus collection book. I do have scads of images for the Starr 1818 but none I find quickly in that folder of extant Rose examples. I don't recall seeing any while browsing.


Cheers


Hotspur; _I'll try to spend some time on files next week_

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## Glen C.

Here are some pictures of the old French half hilt

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## Eric Fairbanks

Sadly I have no comments as I know very little on these straight blades, I have only questions. Thanks for the id on the "french half hilt" I had placed it with my British-American? swords as the Brits did not seem to ever cut a guard down. This one appears to be cast this way.It also has a diamond cross section like many early spadroons. I have a hussar hilt Thurkle with the same blade.The NCO blades are fascinating and something more than a spadroon. While my french sword is not in this grouping I was thankful for the id. My group of Starr NCO's are all mediocre to relic condition. The m1813 Starr is shortened and the Rose relic condition. I would love to aquir one of the marine type Rose NCO's.

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## morgan butler

Those are excellent pics Eric.  I will use them for more comparisons and contrasts with my Starr variant. Your Starr NCO swords look in pretty good condition to me. Which one is the 1813 pattern?

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## Eric Fairbanks

The top two in the first photo. Top one is a Rose and second one down is a Starr. Both NCO US contract swords. Both a bit rough. The Bolton eagle back sword is one of my thrills. Eric

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## morgan butler

Ah, very nice. I very much like your french hanger on the bottom!
It turns out that the seller sprang for 2 day delivery, so I should have mine tomorrow! The more I look at the pic of my 1828 NCO, the more it reminds me of a very large bayonet blade from WWI.

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## morgan butler

Well I received it today. I believe Eric was right on target when he identified it as a example/sample sword. It has an unfinished quality as far as the edge, which is non-existant. The last inch of the tip was never ground down and is a little bit more the 32nds of an inch in width. I assume that this made it safer for traveling from post to post to show buyers. While it has a narrower blade profile than the other Starr's that I have read about it is probably heavier due to its somewhat cut out quality toward the point. The hilt is in great condition! The whole thing has a compact, steely and brutal appearance.  The sword as a whole is in very good shape.

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## Eric Fairbanks

I think you have a rare beauty. I will post close ups and complete measurements of an m1818 NCO when I return from hunting camp. The example swords, odd measurement Starrs, brass hilts and hard to find patterns are my passion and hard to come by. You have a truly rare Starr, congradulations Eric

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## morgan butler

PM'ing you....

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## Glen C.

I did get one shot of my Starr today taken by a friend. An odd perspective next to the much older Swedish hussar and some others. I will try to do some straight on of it in the morning before the crowds and measure guard specs, etc.

Cheers

Hotspur: _a busy, busy day_

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## morgan butler

Good angle actually, Glenn. It's like getting to look down the sword in your own hand. Is the Swede Hussar sword yours as well?

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## Glen C.

Hi Morgan

The Swede is mine. The sword was id'ed and dated to the mid 1700s by Jeff Forgeng, curator of the Higgins Armory Museum some years ago. I bought it from Dominic Grant after seeing it here.  At the tme, an expensive adoption.
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...s-and-thoughts

I took a couple of more hilt pictures and measurements of my Starr and will get those up this week (hopefully). As an end of production sample I guess it shows a last evolution of them. I will also try to put up the other examples I have saved from browsing. Some will show marks and others not. Pulled from past auctions and dealers. You should grab all the photos from the auction of yours and put them up. You can upload twenty-five images at a time with the attachment function.

I will post my folder examples one post at a time to avoid confusion.  It will take me a few days to recover from packing and unpacking and loading/unloading several days in a row.

Some of my sabers to compare it to others. A typical generic civil war type at the top. The Swede next to a smaller English infantry hussar hilt. Massive compared to the infantry sword but shorter than a Solingen mle1822/US m1840



Cheers

Hotspur; _didn't mean to detract from the Starr investigation_

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## morgan butler

Can you tell me where the POB is on your NCO swords, Glen/Eric?

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## Glen C.

Hi Morgan,

I will get more full specifications up hopefully by this weekend. I am still unpacked and the notes are on a pad somewhere I wrote on Sunday. Sorry for the delay.  Stuff like blade thicknesses and pob.  I was thoroughly distracted by the public and associates both days.

Can you share some more of your impressions of you piece?  Going by Hicks, the letters seem to indicate just about everything blade related was being farmed out  (see the page attached earlier), so it will not surprise me that the early and later specs might vary widely.

Cheers

Hotspur; _some event photos on my Facebook timeline taken by Todd Pelletier_
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000715996723

Todd
https://www.facebook.com/todd.pelletier.9?fref=photo

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## morgan butler

My example is one and 1/18 inches wide. Has a untapering spine that goes for about 16 inches, before going into a narrower spine for  2 more inches. The rest of it is double edged. The POB is 6 inches from the hilt.

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## Glen C.

OK, here are my numbers

Blade length is 26 inches
Length of fuller is 18 inches
The fuller width is 1/2 inches
Blade width at guard 1 3/16 inches
Blade width at the end of the fuller 1 1/16 inches

Blade thickness at guard 1/4 inches
Blade thickness atthe end of the fuller 1/8 inches
Blade thickness  at point center of blade 1/16 inches

The distal is fairly linear to the end of the fuller and then drops off as one would expect

POB-COG  5 inches

The back edge was never ground to include a back edge but past the fuller is certainly thin enough one could/or might.  The images you have shared kind of imply it was sharpened heavily on the back edge, hence the profile appearance.

I know it is somewhat tedious to harvest auction images but they are worthwhile from this particular seller.  Having them all in one spot is useful and could be added..

I'll work over the weekend to consolidate other examples I have harvested.

The widest part of the guard is at the center of the grip is  1 1/8 inches
The thickness of the guard stock (excluding quillion) is 3/32"

Cheers

Hotspur; _a few more shots of the hilt end with marks as shown_

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## morgan butler

The fore-edge on mine is almost un-ground and the last 2 inches to and including the tip, are completely unground.

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## Glen C.

Eric

regarding the French half hilt, the French had a full guard previous to this model and used the broadsword blade type shown in your example.  If I can find the discussion with David (who creates reproductions of the French hangers), I believe the change to a half hilt was more economy than anything but the change happening  in the 1720s-1730s.

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## Eric Fairbanks

Very interesting Glenn. I went to see the segesser hide paintings in Santa Fe at palace of the governors and have been reading and studying the photos for insight on French colonial swords. I can see I am somewhat confused on Colonial French swords. I believe the battle depicted in the painting is from a battle in Nebraska of Spaniards and their pueblo Indians allies in 1720 who were attacked by French and Pawnee indians. This sword dating to close to the time frame is very interesting. Your information is very helpful, thanks. Eric

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## Glen C.

A note to add that there is a lot of 3 Starr nco swords coming up in auction
http://poulinantiques.auctionflex.co...enum=1&lang=En

Some other nifty swords as well (including an 1813) . I have some image downloading to do.

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## morgan butler

Those are 3 pristine examples....

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## Glen C.

Lot 3221 is the Starr 1813



A great deal of opportunity in this auction if one has the bankroll. I'll have to do with the images.

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## Glen C.

Here are some of the nco files I have (and one cutlass). I have not added your example Morgan, 
I hope you pull all the auction images before they disappear. I have not pulled a lot the current auction images yet either.  Other of life's tedium beckons as things to do.
https://drive.google.com/folderview?...GM&usp=sharing

These are really a side interest of mine, so I hope anything I have put up is useful. Mine is in the folder along with the photos of it from Stewarts Militaria.

Cheers

Hotspur; _I have a few other files like the fake/reproduction I posted earlier._

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## Eric Fairbanks

I just can't help returning to this post and drool on my tablet looking at that really nice m1818 NCO? Eric

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## Richard Schenk

> A note to add that there is a lot of 3 Starr nco swords coming up in auction
> http://poulinantiques.auctionflex.co...enum=1&lang=En
> 
> Some other nifty swords as well (including an 1813) . I have some image downloading to do.


Glen, I don't know whether to thank you or cuss you out.  I hadn't looked at this Poulin auction until I read your above note.  When I did so I not only bid on the Starr NCO lot, but also put in a number of other what I thought would be low-ball bids on other lots.  To my surprise, I won almost all of them. So, thanks to you, I got some bargains, but also spent a lot more than I had intended.  I'll probably re-sell some of the items.  I already had a couple Starr M1818 NCOs, so I don't know as though I really needed another 3!

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## Glen C.

It's ok Richard.  I saved a mess of photos and descriptions of the lots that would have interested me if bidding.  I am glad the extended family could benefit.  There were a number of later swords that were quite rare and I hope those as well landed in the hands of forumites in several boards.  The 1911 experimentals, etc.

By all means, unload the extras from those lots here at SFI.  There were some truly fine swords in that auction.

Cheers

Hotspur; _rubbing two nickels together and looking at what I should sell myself_

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## Richard Schenk

> Lot 3221 is the Starr 1813
> 
> 
> 
> A great deal of opportunity in this auction if one has the bankroll. I'll have to do with the images.


Another M1813 NCO sword just sold on our favorite site.  Like the one in the Poulin auction, it was missing the rear counterguard, probably period removed.  This one, however, also included a scabbard, which is something I don't believe I have ever seen before.  I would have loved to have had it for the scabbard, but the buy-it-now price was out of my range.  Here are some pictures in case you missed it:



I have a M1813 in pretty decent condition with both counterguards, but unfortunately it is missing about 1/8th inch off the tip.

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## Glen C.

Thanks, I did totally miss that one.  I've had to put my blinders on due to budgeting.

Wow, ya. $2900 but bargained down. I recognize the seller, as he had been selling off a lot of rare eagles some time ago.  My mother and a sister remain in the State College area 50 years later.

Ebay 322050885143

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