# Communities > Modern-era Swords and Collecting Community > Modern Production Katanas >  Tsuka core of Cheness

## D. Freeman

I was looking through Cheness's website, when I noticed a little notice at the bottom that says "new tsuka core."  How "new" is this core, and what improvements have been made, as well as what is still wrong.  I don't own a cheness nor have I ever handled one, so opinions would be well appreciated since I am considering buying from them.

Thank you!!!

----------


## J Hashey

I think by "new" they mean "not used". I'm not a big fan of one size fits all for anything (tsuka, hats, clothing, etc.), because it usually fits all, but not very well. The idea of buying a premade tsuka core for a sword, from a safety standpoint, is, well, scary. You gotta hammer the sucker on and hope it doesn't crack, or it could be too loose. Tsuka really need to be custom fitted to the exact shape of the nakago, and carefully so.

Really, there's been a lot of talk on this subject lately and there ought to be a stickied warning about DIY remount safety. It seems there are a lot of people aren't aware of the risks of cheap sword handles (though I might buy one for my gear shift :P).

Mr. Freeman, I'd suggest you do a little reasearch before you decide to remount whatever sword you might have, and implore you not to cut with it, or swing it if you do anyway. Doing a search for 'projectile' may prove enlightening.

Have fun and be safe.  :Smilie:

----------


## Timo Qvintus

They've finally fixed it? Or is it just the appearance? They don't say anything about friction fitting the tsuka to nakago of each blade, and if they did that I'm pretty sure they'd mention it..?

http://www.chenessinc.com/newtsuka.htm

JH; I think Mr.Freeman meant buying a sword from Cheness, not a "replacement" tsuka..?

----------


## Bogdan M.

It's new like in "changed supplier". They say that this is addressing their previous tsuka problems. We'll jsut have to see how the real thing perorms..

----------


## michael wilson

use the search tool here on SFI for  - 'cheness cracked tsuka '

I think its as common now with the new cores as ever it was  - they are using better wood but the channel inletting for the same' is still cut way too deep causing points of stress  - also these are not carved to match specific nakago 
so its still the one size fits all scenario  - withthe guy from the youtube vid still hammering the cores in place with a mallet .

it never was just about the wood used but about method and working practices 


Mick

----------


## Timo Qvintus

> use the search tool here on SFI for  - 'cheness cracked tsuka '
> 
> I think its as common now with the new cores as ever it was  - they are using better wood but the channel inletting for the same' is still cut way too deep causing points of stress  - also these are not carved to match specific nakago 
> so its still the one size fits all scenario  - withthe guy from the youtube vid still hammering the cores in place with a mallet .
> 
> it never was just about the wood used but about method and working practices 
> 
> 
> Mick


Mick, have you seen one of these new tsuka? Or is there a recent post about a Cheness blade with a new gen tsuka? I suspect you are correct in your assumptions but until we have something concrete they are still just guesses, which are borderline slander.. search for "lawsuit".  :Wink:  Maybe someone should ask Paul Y Chen. *shrug*

----------


## KevinT

look at the pictures

----------


## michael wilson

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...=cheness+tsuka


http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...=cheness+tsuka


I own a cheness 9260 shura with a remounted new core  - its my favourite sword -  including my higher end pieces . 

Ive never been one to bash cheness  - not at all - the fact is cores have been failing since the upgrades of new timber used and different shaping .

Kevins correct  - look at the pics on cheness's own site  - those channels are carved way too deep.

I stand by their blades though  - excellent work for the money  - no dips or waves - well executed kissaki for a production piece .

come on  - my eyes dont lie  - we've all seen the vid withthe mallet guy and the depressed chick on ito wrap duty  - no tying stand , no clamps .

a kettle boiling on the forge and a baby crying in the background  :Wink:   - a classic .


Mick

----------


## J. Hedgespeth

The panel you are referring to is about a "new" design that has been around a while.  It is not new now.  The channel cut was to allow the same' to lay nearly, but not quite flush with the tsuka, so a tighter wrap with the ito could be maintained and the tsuka would have a more naturally "oval" feel when held.

The stronger wood helped, but it was just equally offset by the channel cuts.  This did nothing but create a score line for the tsuka to crack since the wood is now too thin in this area.   :Frown:  

As for cracking...Some do, some don't...I have 5 Cheness and one has a cracked tsuka.  For me, that is not an issue.  The one with the cracked tsuka is just for display and was purchased for that reason.

----------


## Timo Qvintus

Oh, I was under the impression that they had changed lately..  :Embarrassment:

----------


## michael wilson

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...=cracked+tsuka

always good for a second or third look . 

and with that I will bow out and go and retain my legal team for the onslaught ahead  :Wink:   :Big Grin:  


Micky P

----------


## D. Freeman

If that is all they have done to fix the problems, then that makes me truly sad.  I wanted to buy a sword from there, but since I lack the ability to make a new tsuka and the funds to have someone do it for me, then I will have to consider some other options or hope for the best.  Or I could learn how to make one...

----------


## R. Hill

FWIW, my new Shura's blade is not entirely straight (veers left). In addition, the saya was made slightly curved to fit the curved blade.

----------


## J. Hedgespeth

> If that is all they have done to fix the problems, then that makes me truly sad.  I wanted to buy a sword from there, but since I lack the ability to make a new tsuka and the funds to have someone do it for me, then I will have to consider some other options or hope for the best.  Or I could learn how to make one...


So contact Paul and let him know your fears.  He is a good person to work with and would probably not have a problem swapping swords out if you buy one and it does have a cracked core.   :Smilie: 

Would be careful though, some people have broken perfectly good cores by not knowing how to take one off.

----------


## KevinT

I was referring to the off set at the mune, and the (?) stepped carving visible in the third pic.

----------


## Sean Stonebridge

Just as Kevin said, plus the fact there's minimal chance of achieving full contact between nakago and tsuka.  Both parts should mate as closely as possible for a safe fit and use.  Their blades may be fine, but where's the point in fitting a high performance engine into a scrap shell.

A sword can only be as strong and resilient as it's weakest part.  They appear to be presenting pretty fine blades, but falling short on the quality of their mounts can only ever result in poor quality swords (Wallhangers).

Budget and price does no one any good if a product fails during use and someone is stricken, damaged, or killed when parts unexpectedly seperate.

----------


## michael wilson

If you can do the work yourself or know someone who can do it for you at a reasonable price I fully reconmend getting a cheness bare blade in shirasaya  - 

prefferably a 9260 thru hardened tenchi/shura or diff hardened kaze , and get it mounted up yourself  - 

Mick

----------


## michael wilson

heres a link to jim anestias long running cheness SGC thread  - at the bottom of page 3 is a latest update from Jim  - the core has cracked in two places  - this sword has seen extensive cutting in its short life time  - 

should it have gave out yet ? 

as the tsuka is a consumable item prone to everyday wear and tear - is it normal for a tsuka to expire after this type of use ? 

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...t=78549&page=3 


read on Macduff

----------


## Sean Stonebridge

> heres a link to jim anestias long running cheness SGC thread  - at the bottom of page 3 is a latest update from Jim  - the core has cracked in two places  - this sword has seen extensive cutting in its short life time  - 
> 
> should it have gave out yet ? 
> 
> as the tsuka is a consumable item prone to everyday wear and tear - is it normal for a tsuka to expire after this type of use ? 
> 
> http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...t=78549&page=3 
> 
> 
> read on Macduff



Hi Mick,

Two short answers to your questions mate.

No and no.  

These failure rates are excessive.  Even more so after such a short period of time.  Re-wraps?  Perhaps once every two to three yrs through almost daily use, but tsuka cores should be expected to last up to ten years.

-----

The fact a sword supplier sees fit to have quantities of replacement tsuka made seems to imply serious product issues.  In all sincerity and considering the number of problems regarding fit, he and his customers would probably be better served if he supplied two piece tsuka billets, ito, same, hardware and fitting instructions.

-----

----------


## D. Freeman

So I've decided a few things then...
A. I should learn how to make a tsuka and do tsuka maki.
B. For now I should find someone who can make one for me.
C. If I can't find someone, I will have to wait until I am competent enough to make a strong tsuka.

Is there anyone I can contact that can make me a tsuka if I send it to them, and possible supply koshirae?  If anyone knows of a person, please PM me their name and a way to contact them, it would truly be appreciated.

----------


## Jeff Ellis

I was attempting to avoid doing this, but... notice the ha side of the tsuka?

----------


## Jeff Ellis

I bought a cheness tsuka for the fittings... they weren't brass... you can clearly see silver coloring where I gouged the metal out after noticing they felt light.

----------


## Jeff Ellis

I also unwrapped the tsuka. Note that it's not wrapped so that the strands alternte and you can easily undo it by cutting one strand, I have a feeling there's some form of machine involved in tying these?

----------


## Jeff Ellis

and, just for fun, I split the core... remember that little gap in the first picture?

Keep in mind, it took me at least 5 "mighty swings" to pop the core apart, fully, and it cracked on the wood, for the most part, not the joint.

Good glue, bad construction...

----------


## Jeff Ellis

Here's one side, with the same showing it was matched together and hidden under the ito.

----------


## Jeff Ellis

split core, this is how they achieve the one size fit's all.

----------


## Jeff Ellis

different angle.

----------


## michael wilson

The ito is wrapped by hand  - but no hishigame is used and no tying stand either - just a girl wrapping these cores free hand  - I can do it this way but I know its wrong  - thats why I pay someone else $300 + to do it correctly .

watch this vid  - its good that the blades are hand forged  - no machining , no power hammering and polished over stones to a certain extent  - but thats the blades  - 

the koshirea is a different matter entirely 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_JcP0AASFw

want a tsuka to fit any nakago ? simple  - just bray it on with a wooden mallet!

MIck

----------


## Jeff Ellis

> The ito is wrapped by hand  - but no hishigame is used and no tying stand either - just a girl wrapping these cores free hand  - I can do it this way but I know its wrong  - thats why I pay someone else $300 + to do it correctly .
> 
> watch this vid  - its good that the blades are hand forged  - no machining , no power hammering and polished over stones to a certain extent  - but thats the blades  - 
> 
> the koshirea is a different matter entirely 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_JcP0AASFw
> 
> want a tsuka to fit any nakago ? simple  - just bray it on with a wooden mallet!
> ...


Mick, I'd hazard saying that video is outdated now. 

They changed vendors for the tsuka, right?

The woman in that video is clearly alternating the crossovers, and she is clearly not using glue to hold it down (It loked more like pine sap, or something of the sort, really, it was still gummy!)

----------


## J. Hedgespeth

> I bought a cheness tsuka for the fittings... they weren't brass... you can clearly see silver coloring where I gouged the metal out after noticing they felt light.


Did you take this up with Paul to find out why the fittings are not what they are advertised as being?

----------


## michael wilson

I remember your fittings failure thread - and I would hope they changed vendors 
for those  - 

P Y Chen has stated that a lot of previous work practices have changed now - 
and the vid illustrates why issues arose  - 

alarmingly though there have been the odd report of the new cores failing  - opinion has it that the same' channels are cut to deep creating stress risers in the core . 

some guy started a post the other day with  - " today I bought my first cracked tsuka katana "  *It was not a cheness sword I must add* !! but a higher end piece  - someone commented that " So is that the industry standard now ? when do we start paying for snapped blades ?"  

a sorry state of affairs if this is the case .

Mick

----------


## J. Hedgespeth

> and, just for fun, I split the core... remember that little gap in the first picture?
> 
> Keep in mind, it took me at least 5 "mighty swings" to pop the core apart, fully, and it cracked on the wood, for the most part, not the joint.
> 
> Good glue, bad construction...


Is that a cold chisel?   :Confused:   I'm not really sure why you would post this if it were.  :Confused:   D. Freeman is already looking for answers and alternatives to a Cheness tsuka core.  So, point taken.  :Smilie:  

But if this is a cold chisel, even a solid block of wood will not stand up to it.   :Big Grin:

----------


## michael wilson

I wonder if it would ever come down to cheness just selling their bare blades  - 
or indeed make a bare blade only option available for all their models ? 


I for one would like to see Pauls customer care ethics and his quality focus on good blades married to a higher end niche in the market .

not just a one stop shop for a decent beater  - but a proven alternative to mid to high end chens , I know Paul started out to target the lower end of the market  - but he has a customer base big enough and his blades have proven themselves to the market to be good , sound cutters .


Just a thought 


Mick

----------


## KevinT

What I see as a greater issue than perhaps the same' routing is too deep is that it's just not done properly in that it extends into the fuchi.

Could someone finally explain how improper removal can crack the tsuka?

----------


## Jeff Ellis

> Did you take this up with Paul to find out why the fittings are not what they are advertised as being?


Yes, I did. He took one set of fittings and was testing them...

he says he's found the fittings he has to be brass, yet I took a mapp torch to the ones I had and they melted into a puddle of silver goowhile a control piece of brass and copper did nothing, the brass piece burned, a little, but that was it.

----------


## Jeff Ellis

> Is that a cold chisel?    I'm not really sure why you would post this if it were.   D. Freeman is already looking for answers and alternatives to a Cheness tsuka core.  So, point taken.  
> 
> But if this is a cold chisel, even a solid block of wood will not stand up to it.


J.,
I was trying to break the tsuka, I wanted to look inside it and see how they make them, I would hope the cold chisel broke the thing. I tried a bunch of little tippy taps up to the point that the first crack picture was take, because I wanted to see how weak it was at that point. 

After I broke it that way, which I might add was the first place anything gave, I just busted it the rest of the way.

I did mention that it took a few swings to pop it apart, I am not saying they are of bad construction, I am saying that it broke right on the gap you see in the first picture, which was on the seam.

The reason I was posting it was to show the inside of the tsuka and the construction, which is similar to the inside and construction of another brand's tsuka core. I am in no way trying to say Paul is selling crap.

I believe they call it reverse engineering?

----------


## J. Hedgespeth

> Yes, I did. He took one set of fittings and was testing them...
> 
> he says he's found the fittings he has to be brass, yet I took a mapp torch to the ones I had and they melted into a puddle of silver goowhile a control piece of brass and copper did nothing, the brass piece burned, a little, but that was it.


I would have mailed him back the goo and told him to send me the brass fittings as proof that they exist.  Some of these forges have been known to slip inferior/improper/not-to-spec goods into a batch.  If Paul is unaware of this, he should know...If he is aware of this...Shame on him!   :Mad: 

Sounds like you got Zinc or a Zinc Alloy!

----------


## J. Hedgespeth

> I believe they call it reverse engineering?


You and Timo could be our "Component Evaluation Technicians".   :Big Grin:

----------


## Jeff Ellis

> I would have mailed him back the goo and told him to send me the brass fittings as proof that they exist.  Some of these forges have been known to slip inferior/improper/not-to-spec goods into a batch.  If Paul is unaware of this, he should know...If he is aware of this...Shame on him!  
> 
> Sounds like you got Zinc or a Zinc Alloy!


You know.. I could mail the block of zinc, with the control pieces, and a cd with the mpg on it....

I'd put up the mpg, but i.. well I guess i could youtube it.. I was a little inebriated at the time of the video, though....

----------


## Timo Qvintus

> You and Timo could be our "Component Evaluation Technicians".


Keep 'em coming, my chisels are hot for some tsuka splitting action!!!  :Big Grin:  

Jeff, I just saw your picture of the claimed "brass" fittings and I think I've seen 'em somewhere before. I'll get back to the subject tomorrow. I hope I'm wrong..




> You know.. I could mail the block of zinc, with the control pieces, and a cd with the mpg on it....
> 
> I'd put up the mpg, but i.. well I guess i could youtube it.. I was a little inebriated at the time of the video, though....


I can see it now.. "Drunken Internet-geek destroys priceless katana fittings!" Do it!  :Big Grin:

----------


## J. Hedgespeth

> I was a little inebriated at the time of the video, though....


You had a bottle of alcohol and a bottle of MAPP?   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  

Good thing you at least had the torch turned the right way...You could have melted into a pile of goo yourself!  :Big Grin:

----------


## J. Hedgespeth

> Keep 'em coming, my chisels are hot for some tsuka splitting action!!!


I think you are manifesting your ancient heritage into full bloom Timo!   :Big Grin:

----------


## Glen C.

> What I see as a greater issue than perhaps the same' routing is too deep is that it's just not done properly in that it extends into the fuchi.
> 
> Could someone finally explain how improper removal can crack the tsuka?


I may be partly an origin of this theory and I will say again, my next would be my first. When I read about folk whanging away on tsuba with rubber mallets, my eyes roll back in my head. Granted, the fuchi and seppa will help spread the load a little but misdirected and inefficient use of energy is just that. I can easily "see" impact on a lever (the tsuba) tansmitting undue force on one side of the tsuka and causing a split. Using a soft mallet really just compounds the "maybe they just don't get it" factor.

Sure, it's just as likely they are getting damaged on installation but I just have not seen an effort on this board to really stress using a nuki and hard mallet to dislodge a tsuka. Much more often I read of folk not using the proper tools, if needed. Compound it all by the philosophy of having the customer being responsible for quality control and them having less experience than even I do.

Lots of softer blows with leverage acting against the purpose vs good direct force to get things moving. Seems like a pretty simple concept to understand. This may sound mean and condescending but a lot of beginners don't have much of a clue when faced with wanting to take a katana apart. Let alone what rust is, why oil can be good thing, sharpening, etc. None of this even addressing the issue of the other side of the lever driving the seppa, then habaki, up into the machi. 

How many would pop right off if the better methods were used?

Sorry for the sidebar but I felt Kevin deserved an answer. This has been just my take on it.

Cheers

Hotspur; _I'm remembering one person speaking of quite some time tapping all around the tsuba and eating up a rubber mallet_

----------


## Jeff Ellis

Here's the link

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-P2khREkvD4

you can see the kashira turn silver as the heat hits it...

----------


## J. Hedgespeth

> Here's the link
> 
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=-P2khREkvD4
> 
> you can see the kashira turn silver as the heat hits it...


WOW!  That melted fast!  Even MAPP would take time.  I would definitely guess it was zinc or zinc alloy.  Probably, the plating, antiquing and protective coatings, if any, is what you saw burning away.

----------


## Tim Westover

I have an older style tsuka for my Cheness wakazashi and it is split on the glue seam.  I have never cut with it.  I don't think cutting channels into the tsukas to better fit the same would make them stronger.

----------


## Sean Stonebridge

> WOW!  That melted fast!  Even MAPP would take time.  I would definitely guess it was zinc or zinc alloy.  Probably, the plating, antiquing and protective coatings, if any, is what you saw burning away.



Jeff's test tends to indicate the use of pot metal as the casting medium Cheness supplier used for their kashira in this instance.  IMHO a pretty poor material's choice for parts used on a sword supposedly intended for swordsmanship practise and tameshigiri.  

More so when intended for use by beginners who can often tend to be a little rough around the edges when it comes to sword handling.

Britannia / pot metal tends to be a budget alternative when producing cheap castings and melts at lower temps than lead, so another test (For those without blow torches) could involve placing the parts in an old saucepan / ladle and heating them over a stove.  :Wink: 

----- 

Whilst agreeing that budget swords can be an excellent way of introducing people to JSA, I feel that too many corners are being cut during the production process.  Existing standards should be raised, before a catastrophic parts failure leads to serious injury or death.

----------


## J. Hedgespeth

> Jeff's test tends to indicate the use of pot metal as the casting medium Cheness supplier used for their kashira in this instance.



Zinc is the primary component of pot metal.   :Smilie:

----------


## Sean Stonebridge

> Zinc is the primary component of pot metal.


I know  :Wink:  , but isn't it sometimes just as easy to offer a few naming alternatives for the zinc alloys used during the manufacture process?  :Big Grin:

----------


## J. Hedgespeth

> I know  , but isn't it sometimes just as easy to offer a few naming alternatives for the zinc alloys used during the manufacture process?


I suppose...I just never really considered zinc much good for anything more than batteries.   :Big Grin:

----------


## michael wilson

But quite alarming , well done for taking the time and effort though ,

I believe that these 'psuedo brass ' fittings or those on the tenchi are they not?

For cheness' flagship cutter to have these fittings is quite worrying  - like Jeff 
said - somethings wrong here .


Mick

----------


## Timo Qvintus

> Jeff, I just saw your picture of the claimed "brass" fittings and I think I've seen 'em somewhere before. I'll get back to the subject tomorrow. I hope I'm wrong..


And wrong I was. *sigh of relief* My ZhiSword brass fittings look almost exactly like your Cheness fittings and I got spooked, but after a quick filing of the inside of the fuchi I'm happy to tell that it's brass (or at least the color, and weight, are correct).

----------


## Andrew W. Priestley

For a more scientific sample, I suggest that others with loose Cheness and similarly economy class fittings check them as well. Hopefully this is an anomaly rather than the norm. 

I think we should avoid rushing to judgement in this, but rather try to achieve something of an abjective sample to see if Mr. Chen is being defrauded by his suppliers...which I think far more likely than the most obvious alternative considering his openness and willingness to put himself on the line for his products. 

It may also be a mistake by his suppliers as it seems likely that they supply fittings for a wide variety of purposes ranging from the cheapest tourist wallhangers to decent quality users.  Perhaps a batch of castings intended for ornamental wallhangers was mis-labelled and sent to Cheness' tsukamaki folks?  Lets give the guy the benefit of the doubt here.

However, I STRONGLY advise Cheness owners to take a scrape at their fittings with a file and see what they see...especially if you use the sword for cutting of ANYTHING, including pool noodles or even lots of air.  The wear and tear on pot metal will induce critical fatigue even from simple forms practice. If the fittings turn out to be brass, then some brass black will hide the scratch : http://www.birchwoodcasey.com/sport/index.html .

If it's soft and silvery, then remove the fittings and replace them before cutting again.  SAVE any non-brass fittings as evidence, mark them clearly for what they are not. Mr. Chen or others may need them as evidence that the problem is widespread. 

Lets gather more information.

----------


## Jeff Ellis

> For a more scientific sample, I suggest that others with loose Cheness and similarly economy class fittings check them as well. Hopefully this is an anomaly rather than the norm. 
> 
> I think we should avoid rushing to judgement in this, but rather try to achieve something of an abjective sample to see if Mr. Chen is being defrauded by his suppliers...which I think far more likely than the most obvious alternative considering his openness and willingness to put himself on the line for his products. 
> 
> It may also be a mistake by his suppliers as it seems likely that they supply fittings for a wide variety of purposes ranging from the cheapest tourist wallhangers to decent quality users.  Perhaps a batch of castings intended for ornamental wallhangers was mis-labelled and sent to Cheness' tsukamaki folks?  Lets give the guy the benefit of the doubt here.
> 
> However, I STRONGLY advise Cheness owners to take a scrape at their fittings with a file and see what they see...especially if you use the sword for cutting of ANYTHING, including pool noodles or even lots of air.  The wear and tear on pot metal will induce critical fatigue even from simple forms practice. If the fittings turn out to be brass, then some brass black will hide the scratch : http://www.birchwoodcasey.com/sport/index.html .
> 
> If it's soft and silvery, then remove the fittings and replace them before cutting again.  SAVE any non-brass fittings as evidence, mark them clearly for what they are not. Mr. Chen or others may need them as evidence that the problem is widespread. 
> ...


Paul replied to me about the video, he's very surprised about it from what I can tell. I linked him to the thread, and hope he'll comment on this.

----------


## Jeff Ellis

I want to put this in: 
Paul has been talking to me about the issue since I brought it up. He tested a sample and did not find the same issue, however, he has told me that if the problem becomes more widescale, he will find himself another supplier for the fittings. 

Paul is more concerned about this than it seems.

----------


## Sean Stonebridge

> I want to put this in: 
> Paul has been talking to me about the issue since I brought it up. He tested a sample and did not find the same issue, however, he has told me that if the problem becomes more widescale, he will find himself another supplier for the fittings. 
> 
> Paul is more concerned about this than it seems.


Hi Jeff,

That's good to know and (Judging by past history) I'm certain Paul will take adequate steps concerning both fittings and tsuka.  Especially considering the current feedback concerning the apparently good quality of the blades he's so far presented within their given pricing bracket / range and past improvements during the development of his goods.

It's always a possibility that rogue parts can slip through the net.  Especially when so many lookalike parts are so widespread and readily available within the ranges produced and sourced from the same region.

Was there any similar feedback regarding Cheness tsuka core?

----------


## michael wilson

Its a damn shame that all of P Y Chens good work on the blades and all his good 
intentions maybe getting badly let down possibly by unscrupulous vendors .

I only have one cheness ( could never understand people who buy like 5 of the same beater ? ) - mines a 9260 alloy through hardened bare blade , fully remounted with a hand carved core and quality wrap and fittings .

I'll take the pepsi challenge against any $500 katana of a similiar flavour for cutting abilty , toughness and edge retention - but thats mine , I wouldnt say the same boast about a tenchi with a factory tsuka and these  - er , brass lite fittings  - if a sword is only as good as its weakest component then Cack !! is the word of choice .

It pains me to see good blades that someone put some thought into -  getting 
mugged off by micky mouse parts and toy town workmanship.


Mick

----------


## J. Hedgespeth

> I only have one cheness ( could never understand people who buy like 5 of the same beater ? )


Referring to me?  After all, I am the only person that has mentioned owning 5 Cheness blades.

I don't own 5 of the same beater.  I own 5 uniquely different Cheness swords.

SGC Yamakami Katana, Ko-Katana and Wakizashi (I liked the kat so much, I bought all three for the set).

Oniyuri Bujinkan Katana...Makes a nice display and a good example of a Bujinkan Katana.

Cheness O-Katana.....I liked the way it looks.

That's it....You have my reasons.  I also own 3 Oni Forge...each different as well.  So, it is not like I have 5 Tenchi or 5 Shura etc....I have 5 different swords that happen to have different blade styles, geometries, etc... that happen to be of the same product line.   :Smilie:

----------


## michael wilson

Not you at all  - I was thinking about other threads  - were its like I own masahiro blah , maasahiro blah , masahiro blah - etc , not much to choose between masahiro kats  - different cheap ito , different diamyo name  - all 28" nagasa with etched hamon .

purely coincidental - besides all your cheness are different sugata , steel and heat treat are they not ? like owning 6 PC hanwei swords  - al totally different.

thats that out the way. 


Is no one else going to speak up about their opinions of cheness blades ? 

we all see the tsuka negatives regularly on SFI  - some positives about the blades would restore the balance .

Mick

----------


## Timo Qvintus

Well, the thread is named "Tsuka core of Cheness".. so why comment the blades here?

----------


## J. Hedgespeth

> Not you at all  - I was thinking about other threads  - were its like I own masahiro blah , maasahiro blah , masahiro blah - etc , not much to choose between masahiro kats  - different cheap ito , different diamyo name  - all 28" nagasa with etched hamon .
> 
> purely coincidental - besides all your cheness are different sugata , steel and heat treat are they not ? like owning 6 PC hanwei swords  - al totally different.
> 
> thats that out the way. 
> 
> 
> Is no one else going to speak up about their opinions of cheness blades ? 
> 
> ...



Actually, all of mine are Through Hardened 9260 Silicon Alloy Steel. 

I own a few Masahiros too....

The Fudo Myoo series are nice, well balanced blades with a long tsuka of 14".  However, the Fudo's quality range is extreme as I own more than one....I could trust one for light cutting, while the other....really needs to be destroyed before someone gets hurt with it.  

The Bamboo...well, everyone knows this is the Non-Masahiro Masahiro that is probably the only "consistent-quality" weapon in the line...and even it has had tsuka issues.  

And the Lu series...good to look at...thats it.

As for the hamon on all Masahiros....All that I own, are brushed, with the exception of the Bamboo which has an acid etched hamon....subtle and nicely executed, even if fake.

I like Cheness swords....I know, they have obvious issues.  Sometimes though, I wonder if this is really that isolated....I mean, are there other product lines from other manufacturers that may have the same issues and are being overlooked?   :Confused:

----------


## P. Farris

The one bamboo I bought more than a year ago had a real hamon under the faux hamon.  I know this has been discussed here before.  Some do and some don't.  Which makes me wonder about the construction.  Some seemed to think that these are the seconds of the ryumon line.  I'm not quite sure i believed that though.  Who knows, maybe i need to start up a new thread on that issue.  Or have we all beat it death enough.  Who knows?

BTW I botched a cut with the bamboo quite awhile ago.  The blade bent.  Definatly not thru hardened.  You just gotta get that stroke right on mats.  Oops.

----------


## J. Hedgespeth

> The one bamboo I bought more than a year ago had a real hamon under the faux hamon.  I know this has been discussed here before.  Some do and some don't.  Which makes me wonder about the construction.  Some seemed to think that these are the seconds of the ryumon line.  I'm not quite sure i believed that though.  Who knows, maybe i need to start up a new thread on that issue.  Or have we all beat it death enough.  Who knows?
> 
> BTW I botched a cut with the bamboo quite awhile ago.  The blade bent.  Definatly not thru hardened.  You just gotta get that stroke right on mats.  Oops.


Actually, the "Bamboo" was not a Masahiro or a Ryumon.  It was made under the Wuu Jau Co. and simply had a stock number with no name at all.  They were purchased and put inside a Masahiro tube and sold as a Masahiro.  Since then, there has been an attempt to sell a Bamboo look-a-like under the Furubushidoo name (also Wuu Jau I believe), but it is of lesser quality..brushed blade with identical fittings.  Sadly, the the original Bamboo have long since been discontinued.

----------


## P. Farris

AH HA!  Ok that clears up alot.  Still sad that i bent it.  It didn't take much.  But sometimes i don't believe that it does.  Thanks for the clarification.

----------


## J. Hedgespeth

> AH HA!  Ok that clears up alot.  Still sad that i bent it.  It didn't take much.  But sometimes i don't believe that it does.  Thanks for the clarification.


You could have done the same with a Bugei.   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  

A bad cut happens.  Did you straighten the blade?

----------


## P. Farris

No I did not, i beleive my feeble attempts would make it worse.  Any suggestions?

----------


## J. Hedgespeth

You might want to search the forum for posted threads on the subject of straightening blades.  I am no expert on the subject myself.

----------


## michael wilson

*Well, the thread is named "Tsuka core of Cheness".. so why comment the blades here?*


Because I didnt want my comments to sound anti - cheness as I have so much faith in their blades  - I wanted someone else to say something positive as well.

also I didnt want people to get the idea that Jeff was bashing cheness  - he's not , we all know that but casual browsers might have mis - construed it.


Mick

----------


## D. Freeman

I have one last question, but this concerns the tsuka on the wakizashi's.  Do you think those are safe?  The blade is lighter, and I doubt the carving of the tsuka would be as bad, since there shouldn't a difference in tang length amongst the blades, although I'm sure the friction fit isn't as good as it should be.  Has anyone dissected one?

----------


## Sean Stonebridge

> I have one last question, but this concerns the tsuka on the wakizashi's.  Do you think those are safe?  The blade is lighter, and I doubt the carving of the tsuka would be as bad, since there shouldn't a difference in tang length amongst the blades, although I'm sure the friction fit isn't as good as it should be.  Has anyone dissected one?


Hi,

It's safe to assume that cracked tsuka and production line - blade and tsuka - fitting techniques aren't traits solely found with Cheness products, but close and careful inspection before use is something any user should become familiar with.  

Everyone should do so, regardless of branding or source of manufacture.  Bugei, Hanwei, Dynasty Forge, etc..  All are just as guilty when manufacture flaws enter the equation.

-----

Strip-down should only be done if one can be certain of being capable of doing without causing damage whilst also knowing how to correctly replace damaged parts.  It can be quite surprising just how many people blame manufacturing flaws when they discover faults, without realising poor strip-down technique can lead to virtually identical breakages / flaws.  This aspect can prove just as problematical as any manufacture flaw, or sword useage issues.  

In an ideal world everyone should seek proper / adequate instruction whenever weapons handling enters the equation and everyone should take particular care during strip-down, re-assembly and use.  Especially if instruction isn't a practicality.  :Wink:

----------


## michael wilson

or is it here , here  - Lol.

anyway Sean I agree with that last post totally mate  - guilty of over zealous tsuka removal in the past myself , a home made nuki tool or even a lohman one 
for $25 is money well spent  - also theres plenty of old stagers ( you  :Wink:  ) 
on SFI with plenty of experience to offer on correct dis-mounting . 


thankfully ive only ever had one cracked core  - and thats was a factory made 
crack under the fuchi  - the company ,  Cold Steel



Mick

----------


## sal v.

well, it seems a good conversation. don't mind if i join  :Smilie:  i am sal, i am 14 years old, and i myself own the differentially hardened kaze, though young,i know what i am talking about. cheness swords have very excellent blades, i speak with the owner often, and he is a great man. as for the fittings on tenchi, it says on the cheness sword page, alloys and brass, pretty much it says that they are mixed alloys, or brass. 

 the
 reason for the tsuka being that way is too give the working class, a chance too own there very own high end blade. they are very cheap,and very very beautiful, and i have seen the tests, he is the only one, who makes blades that i trust. you must respect the work that this man does, he can get much more for the blades if he so wanted. 

also can't be helped because his business is in china,whereas he is in the united states, i think California if i am not mistaken.

----------


## Jeff Ellis

> well, it seems a good conversation. don't mind if i join  i am sal, i am 14 years old, and i myself own the differentially hardened kaze, though young,i know what i am talking about. cheness swords have very excellent blades, i speak with the owner often, and he is a great man. as for the fittings on tenchi, it says on the cheness sword page, alloys and brass, pretty much it says that they are mixed alloys, or brass. 
> 
>  the
>  reason for the tsuka being that way is too give the working class, a chance too own there very own high end blade. they are very cheap,and very very beautiful, and i have seen the tests, he is the only one, who makes blades that i trust. you must respect the work that this man does, he can get much more for the blades if he so wanted. 
> 
> also can't be helped because his business is in china,whereas he is in the united states, i think California if i am not mistaken.


It would be more understandable to see these tsuka that are one size fits all epoxied onto the nakago, as well as pinned. 

If I had the money, I would certainly buy one of the swords just for the sake of looking it over.

However, i would not put them in the "High End" range. 

Your age could be a bit of contention as well. You're admitting you're 14, and he states under policies



> ADULT BUYERS ONLY
> 
> We will NOT sell any swords to minors or to regions where live sword sale is prohibited by law.


Paul is a good man, and he changed the information on is website following the video that's on youtube. 

I wonder if he'll start offering tanto soon...

----------


## michael wilson

Just to get some perspective here , what other swords do you own 
or have owned that have helped you form your opinions , 

I have a remounted cheness 9260 shura blade that I am very happy with


Mick

----------


## sal v.

to answer Jeff Ellis, yes, i did not mean too refer too them as "high end" in my opinion the blades are way up the food chain. and you should put a bit of thought into me purchasing kaze, by which i mean, somone ordered it for me, though i could have ordered it myself. Mr.Chen i well aware that i own it.

also to answer michael wilson, i have many swords, 16 in fact.15 of which are katanas, they are made from companies that you might not know about...i have used good blades too have come too the conclusion that cheness makes fine swords, but i have a WWII sword, a monosteel and a kaze. i have used many other cutters,so i am not just basing my opinion on blades that i currently have....

----------


## Jeff Ellis

> to answer Jeff Ellis, yes, i did not mean too refer too them as "high end" in my opinion the blades are way up the food chain. and you should put a bit of thought into me purchasing kaze, by which i mean, somone ordered it for me, though i could have ordered it myself. Mr.Chen i well aware that i own it.


Sal, nothing personal, I've had this issue with parents that don't know a thing about swords buying/allowing their kids swords ever since I saw a news report on a 13 year old boy that was playing with his sword in the backyard and stabbed himself in the femoral artery. He managed to drop to the ground and pin it shut, but his mother made a comment that bothered me. "I bought it for him because I figured swords aren't dangerous, and he has a few more."

----------


## Sean Stonebridge

> to answer Jeff Ellis, yes, i did not mean too refer too them as "high end" in my opinion the blades are way up the food chain. and you should put a bit of thought into me purchasing kaze, by which i mean, somone ordered it for me, though i could have ordered it myself. Mr.Chen i well aware that i own it.
> 
> also to answer michael wilson, i have many swords, 16 in fact.15 of which are katanas, they are made from companies that you might not know about...i have used good blades too have come too the conclusion that cheness makes fine swords, but i have a WWII sword, a monosteel and a kaze. i have used many other cutters,so i am not just basing my opinion on blades that i currently have....


Welcome to SFI Sal.

Regardless of the number of swords you own, saying Paul Chen would have knowingly sold you a sword potentially runs the risk of landing him in trouble with the authorities.  Perhaps you should have said your parents had bought it for you?

Cheness blades certainly serve their purpose and are becoming pretty well placed within their niche of the market, but they're not "way up the food chain" by any means when compared to more insightful examples from higher level suppliers, manufacturers and craftsmen.  Especially when considering Cheness' ongoing / recent problems with fittings (Tsuka).

----------


## P. Farris

Personally I think that swords should be treated like any other weapon.  They are dangerous.  Children (of a certain age of course) should be allowed to handle them under proper supervision.  The only problem is.  You can't unload a katana.  Maybe Iaito wouldn't be a bad choice.  Don't forget, swords are dangerous.  Hopefully Sal is under some sort of supervision.  Be careful man, I put a Oni Forge tonbo thru my hand last summer.  Luckily it missed the tendons.  Please be careful, we want you to enjoy swords and not come a statistic.

----------


## sal v.

thank you all for the advice. pretty much, my mother did give the money too a friend to order it for me(my money!) trust me, i am very responsible and careful with my katanas. even my iaito, it is steel, but i treat it as if it were a shinken. i still love and adore the cheness swords. for there durability. they are also making the channels on there blades shallower and replacing the back mekugi pin, with a brass pin, for extra safety. Mr.Chen is a great fellow, good guy, he would not cheat any one.

----------


## D. Freeman

> they are also making the channels on there blades shallower and replacing the back mekugi pin, with a brass pin, for extra safety.


Are you referring to the channels for the same, or something else?  Also, a sword shouldn't need a metal mekugi, or a second bamboo one even.  The tsuka should have a friction fit that should be the primary thing holding the blade in.  

Did you read the thread from the beginning?

----------


## sal v.

yes i did...i spoke too Mr.Chen, and he said (if i am not misinterpreting his statement) that the same channels would be more shallow. and the brass pin is just a precaution. i like brass, so i am for it  :Smilie:

----------


## Skip Gardner

I have found this thread to be very informative and would like to thank all who have contributed.

  I find it sad that such a critical component of a katana can be so overlooked by any manufacturer.  Personally, I feel there is absolutely no room for poor fit and finish when it comes to the tsuka.  The Japanese did not spend centuries perfecting the making of the tsuka out of bordem.  The Samurai depended on it.

  I have spent the better part of the last year learning and studying in an attempt to achieve perfection in making tsuka.  I have a long way to go, but can with confidance say that what I make easily out shines what comes on a production katana, wak or tanto.

  I've spent alot of money on "bargain" blades, only to finally hear and realize what many have been saying all along.  "You get what you pay for".  Allowing for sub par craftmanship on such an important part of the katana is not wise, in fact, it can be deadly.

  I understand that in order to keep costs down manufacturer's will take short cuts.  I just dont want them.  If this means more money will be spent to get something that is made correctly, then so be it.  I will save and spend the money needed.

  For now, I am content buying what is considered to be a "good" value blade, and make my own tsuka's.  Bare blade options with habaki and saya are my preferance.

  Again, thank you all for this very informative thread.  I continue to find SFI to be a very good tool in my learning process.  Some very wise people here, if we just choose to listen.

Skip

----------


## Sean Stonebridge

Hi Skip,

If considering habaki among the sword parts that can be made on a diy / home basis, such projects can be well worth the effort.  Especially when considering that enthusiasm and a comparatively small investment in time, tooling and raw materials can open doors for anyone wishing to learn new skill sets.  :Wink: 

-----

----------


## Timo Qvintus

I was PM'd by a forumite about the new brass-"mekugi". His Cheness-sword NIB, but even so he's been unable to remove the pin with any reasonable means. Looks like it comes already bent, so you don't even have to cause that yourself.  :Stick Out Tongue:  I asked the forumite to post his experiences here, but it would seem that PYC has solved the tsuka-problems by making you unable to inspect the tsuka at all; in effect, making the tsuka like that of his namesake's classic Practical Katana, just without the glue. Opinions?

IMO, this is not necessarily a bad thing. We all (most of us, anyway) know the track-record of the PK. It's safe. It needs a lot of work to remove the tsuka. Now, if Cheness has a more durable blade (I'm thinking of the 9260 series), and the tsuka is also "fixed", that would make them pretty nice backyard beaters. On the other hand, if I even bought a Cheness, the first thing I'd do is to get rid of the tsuka, so I might as well split the bugger with a chisel, not a problem, and compared to the PK, I wouldn't need to touch the nakago since there is no glue. (BTW, I would buy a Cheness with koshirae rather than a shirasaya only because the saya is "functional" and doesn't cost much more than the shirasaya-version.)

----------


## Tim Westover

I still like affordable production katana, but I don't expected as much from them as I believe others have.  I see them as something to buy and then fix up. My Cheness 1045 wak is going to get a new tsuka and habaki and therefore probably a new saya as well.

Funny that for years the Practical Katana was faulted for having an epoxied on tuska that was difficult to remove.  We now know there are worse things in an entry level cutter.  :Wink:

----------


## J. Hedgespeth

I have wondered why polymers have not been considered (or maybe they have). Materials, such as Grivory or Zytel (fiberglass reinforced plastics), can be made into any form. They are weather resistant, meaning they would not warp, shrink, expand or crack at normal temperature or humidity variations, worldwide. Once molds are made and paid for, I don't think the cost would be any more than the wood used originally, but the strength would be far superior to wood. Two halves could be joined using a dovetail joint or finger joint (methods used in woodworking when building items such as drawers). By using this joining technique, the two halves would overlap each other and this would prevent any possible separation, without intentional attempts to smash the tsuka. Otherwise, total disassembly would be needed to take it apart. Then the core could be covered with the traditional materials.

Don't everyone shoot me all at once...It was just a thought!  :Smilie:

----------


## Timo Qvintus

> I still like affordable production katana, but I don't expected as much from them as I believe others have.  I see them as something to buy and then fix up.


Me too, but such swords should come with a tag *CANNOT BE USED SAFELY AS IS*.  :Stick Out Tongue:  Not everyone even knows of these issues, and not all who know are capable (or willing) to put time and effort to fixing what *shouldn't* be broken.




> Funny that for years the Practical Katana was faulted for having an epoxied on tuska that was difficult to remove.  We now know there are worse things in an entry level cutter.


LOL, it's better to have a tsuka that won't come apart than a tsuka that can come apart without it being user's fault.




> I have wondered why polymers have not been considered (or maybe they have). Materials, such as Grivory or Zytel (fiberglass reinforced plastics), can be made into any form. They are weather resistant, meaning they would not warp, shrink, expand or crack at normal temperature or humidity variations, worldwide. Once molds are made and paid for, I don't think the cost would be any more than the wood used originally, but the strength would be far superior to wood. Two halves could be joined using a dovetail joint or finger joint (methods used in woodworking when building items such as drawers). By using this joining technique, the two halves would overlap each other and this would prevent any possible separation, without intentional attempts to smash the tsuka. Otherwise, total disassembly would be needed to take it apart. Then the core could be covered with the traditional materials.
> 
> Don't everyone shoot me all at once...It was just a thought!


Why not? If Cheness goes un-traditional by adding a copper-pin instead of bamboo mekugi, why not go un-traditional (and safe) all the way?

BTW, the forumite I mentioned eventually got the copper-pin removed. Here's what the person in question wrote:




> I was able to get the copper pin out. I had to do it with a serious effort though. Had to take a full sized hammer and round metal punch the same diameter of the pin to it to finally remove it. Even when the pin was half-way out, it still took some force to get it all the way through.
> 
> The pin was actually in very good shape. It wasn't like it got mis-shapen or anything. It was just in there very tightly. Since cooper is soft, I was afraid of possibly the tang almost fusing itself with the pin. Wasn't the case. Though I haven't done any cutting or anything yet. I haven't even swung the sword at full speed yet.
> 
> As for the tsuka, yah that thing is on there tight. I wasn't able to get it off by hand. I ran out of time when I was working on it, and decided to put the pins back in.

----------


## Jim Anestasi

Hi J,
 Whats this a tsuka made with fiberglass reinforced plastics,
  SACRILEGE May the perfect katana gods strike you down,and the 
 Death of a thousand cut follow.

 ha ha ha he he.
 Actually I agree with you ,it sure would take care of cracked & split tsukas.
 Regards  Jim :Big Grin:

----------


## sal v.

[QUOTE=I have wondered why polymers have not been considered (or maybe they have). Materials, such as Grivory or Zytel (fiberglass reinforced plastics), can be made into any form. They are weather resistant, meaning they would not warp, shrink, expand or crack at normal temperature or humidity variations, worldwide. [/QUOTE]

yes, when me and my brother start forging, we were going too use grivory and zytel just too eliminate the problems that wooden tsuka have too offer...

----------


## michael wilson

discussing the merits of contemporary materials for tsuka construction : - Buffalo horn , Delrin , kevlar , Dupont/Zytel and fibreglass, epoxy resins and ABS polymers as well as a host of exotica from the wood families , 

Its all about what works from a wear and tear standpoint and also what will maintain the POB of the sword  - then theres tradition  - 


do you want to be known as the plastic samurai  :Wink:  :Big Grin:    besides , we already have kats on the market with ABS polymer tsuka  - they are the POS range still available to a lucky few from the now defunct United Cutlery's list of vendors  :Gag: 

Mick

----------


## J. Hedgespeth

Cheap production method for a cheap sword for sure Mick.  

But my thought was on something more comparable to wood, by weight and resistance to torque.  If a Zytel version were made, the initial outside shaping would be done in the mould and the inlet could still be performed by hand.  The outside being finished could provide more labor/time to work on properly fitting the nakago....But then again...what is stopping the process with wood?  Like I said...just a thought.  ABS is too flexible IMHO for this type of usage.  

United Cutlery.... :Gag:   Now you had to remind me...
I still have one of those Black Ronin sheet metal stamped swords around here somewhere...Thanks Mick..!###$%$^&***#@@!!   :Big Grin:

----------


## sal v.

actually, i have checked out kris cutlery and ronin swords... i do not know if they have the strength and flex that i want....

----------


## sal v.

can someone help me out? just trying to find a good shinken...

----------


## Sean Stonebridge

Plastics are great, but internal condensation could prove an undesirable side effect of pairing such materials with steel, although ABS is used quite widely in firearms manufacture and can handle quite an amount of abuse when used in conjunction with lubricated and pre-oxidised steel.

Delrin tends to be used for parts requiring a certain degree of self lubrication such as washers, axis and push rods.

----

Sal v,

Perhaps you could open a new thread and state your requirements and budget?

----------


## Jeff Ellis

> can someone help me out? just trying to find a good shinken...


Sal,
Save your money and go for a Howard Clark sword, or an MAS L6 cutter.

----------


## Jeff Ellis

> I have wondered why polymers have not been considered (or maybe they have). Materials, such as Grivory or Zytel (fiberglass reinforced plastics), can be made into any form. They are weather resistant, meaning they would not warp, shrink, expand or crack at normal temperature or humidity variations, worldwide. Once molds are made and paid for, I don't think the cost would be any more than the wood used originally, but the strength would be far superior to wood. Two halves could be joined using a dovetail joint or finger joint (methods used in woodworking when building items such as drawers). By using this joining technique, the two halves would overlap each other and this would prevent any possible separation, without intentional attempts to smash the tsuka. Otherwise, total disassembly would be needed to take it apart. Then the core could be covered with the traditional materials.
> 
> Don't everyone shoot me all at once...It was just a thought!


Well, as long as the moulder takes into account that no two nakago are alike, we're golden

----------


## sal v.

> Sal,
> Save your money and go for a Howard Clark sword, or an MAS L6 cutter.


yeah, it is a dream of mine, but i wish to have other such lower cost shinken first....

----------

