# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  Military sabre ID please.

## Giles Kirby

Hi all, 
I'd like some help identifying a sword I have recently inherited. It is one of a few I've just started researching, and can't quite decide what it is.....
The third one down in this picture:
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Many thanks in advance....I hope the pictures are okay..

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## LJoseph

Far from an expert myself , but looks to be an 1860 pattern light calvary saber .

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## Matt Easton

It's a French 1822 pattern light cavalry trooper's sabre.

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## Giles Kirby

Ah, I thought it was from the US....any clues as to the strange markings on the blade? Can't find them anywhere, my google-fu is weak tonight! Might they be dating stamps?

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## Giles Kirby

And am I correct in thinking the shorter cutlass in the top picture is a police issue one?

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## Glen C.

Hi Giles

Welcome aboard

The large Sabre is not of US manufacture. It appears to be a European  made version of the French 1822.  This is not a US maker's mark. I do not recognize the maker's mark. off the top of my head.  The sabre also seems to have been blued, at least partly so. Are there decorations on the blued section?



The US light cavalry sword had a narrower and straighter blade. This sabre you show is more similar to the US m1840. The light most often had a contoured grip and fewer turns of wire.  There were many Prussian makers of the French 1822 and that is also what the US used as a pattern for their 1840.

Cheers

Hotspur;  _US makers marks will be spelled out and the date marked in full on this type_

The shorter sword does look like a police or artillery sword.

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## Richard Schenk

> Ah, I thought it was from the US....any clues as to the strange markings on the blade? Can't find them anywhere, my google-fu is weak tonight! Might they be dating stamps?


The scales are the mark of Alex Coppel, a Solingen sword maker.  The mark on the other side looks like a German inspector mark.  This could well be a US sword.  During the Civil War both sides imported a large number of M1840 cavalry sabers made by German makers.  The US M1840 was copied from the French M1822.

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## Glen C.

Ah, a set of scales. The mark for Alex Coppel, Solingen.  So it is possibly an import to the US.

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## Giles Kirby

Thank you so much chaps, that's food for thought. So...possibly a Solingen made US 1840 pattern sabre..civil war period?
Is it possible to date it from the marks shown? I'll give it a light clean soon, and check for any other marks. It does look like it has been blued at some stage, but there is not much remaining..

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## Guy C

Any dating information on a French sword should be found engraved on the spine with inspection stamps on the blade.

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## Guy C

Sorry my last post sent before I refreshed the thread to see the posts identifying a Solingen made export. Is there a narrow second fuller close to the spine of the blade?

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## Matt Easton

In fairness, lots of French cavalry swords do not have either a secondary fuller or engraving on the spine. Lots do, but not all. This looks more like a European than US version of the sword to me - lots of French army swords were bought from Solingen and of course this model was also used by the Belgians, the Dutch and some of the German states...

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## Giles Kirby

Okay, now I'm not sure....I think I'll have a little clean, and see if there are any other markings on it. Thanks for the info so far. I thought it would be easier to identify! Maybe I'll look at the others first...

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## Gene Wilkinson

Hi Giles,
Nice collection. Would you be able to show some more of the boys smallsword (if it is one).
I think I have a similar item.

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## Giles Kirby

Thanks Gene, it's not all of them, I've got a few others in a box too.
A couple of pictures of the small sword:
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It appears to missing the guard...the closest I could find is this one, but would appreciate any more info.
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## Eric Fairbanks

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...amp-C-sword-ID
Here is some info on WK &C by Dale and George.

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## Gene Wilkinson

Hi Giles

Interesting little sword.
As Eric says, the maker is Weyersberg Kirschbaum & Cie.
The blade looks like a civil service or diplomatic service type to me. 
But I don't recognize the sword as a particular pattern.
What are the dimensions of the hilt and the overall length?
I mean I take it that the grip is too small for an adult hand?

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## Giles Kirby

I'm away for work at the moment, but will be home again Sunday/Monday, so I will post the exact measurements.
It is quite small though, although an adult hand could fit the hilt. I'm not sure it would be much good in a fight! I'd rather have a pointy stick myself!

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## Javier Ramos

I do not think the blade is original to the smallsword. It looks a century younger. WKC formed in 1883.

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## Glen C.

I believe some of  these to be as late as indicated. I would question it myself except seeing a Horstmann example identical to these. If not late 1800s, then the Horstmann sword (with complete scabbard) would be nno earlier than about 1830.

Cheers

Hotspur; _the Horstmann has actually gone up in price when it didn't sell for more than a year_

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## Gene Wilkinson

It would be interesting to know what type of guard was originally on the "small sword".
I wonder if it had a shell or boat shaped guard?

I have a similar sized small sword with a pierced blade and double shell guard.

Glen, 
Do you know anything about this general type of sword?
What was their purpose?

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## Glen C.

Hi Gene

My impression is that as far as the Horstmann goes, it is late and must have been targeted at diplomatic use.  I have two French epee that are clearly a century apart, so it would not surprise me that hilts from the previous century carried over.  The only resources I have are Hartzler, Peterson, Flayderman and the Bashford Dean books. Smallswords are not my forte'  :Wink: 

Cheers

Hotspur; _attached a few pics of the Horstmann_

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## Gene Wilkinson

> Hi Gene
> 
> My impression is that as far as the Horstmann goes, it is late and must have been targeted at diplomatic use.  I have two French epee that are clearly a century apart, so it would not surprise me that hilts from the previous century carried over.  The only resources I have are Hartzler, Peterson, Flayderman and the Bashford Dean books. Smallswords are not my forte' 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Hotspur; _attached a few pics of the Horstmann_


Hi Glen,
Good catch.
That's a dead ringer hilt wise for Giles sword.
Perhaps I'm misjudging its scale from the pictures. 
The one I have (that I thought was similar size) is far too small to hold normally.
Were these deliberately made too small to use?

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## Glen C.

Total length on the Horstmann is 33 3/4" with the blade  27 1/4". That actually seems pretty reasonable to me, pinching the quillion block using the pas de ane for steerage.. A sword that first struck me as tiny when first viewed in person were the German civil degen but I guess I has just gotten accustomed to the size surprise when first we meet  :Wink:   I have a slotted hilt spadroon with a 32"blade that is too small for me to hold in a hammer grip but electing more of a smallsword grip, it fits fine (I have quite large hands). That fighting sword has a hilt shorter than the numbers of the sword above.

Cheers

Hotspur; _photos always make things seem bigger if there is nothing there to guaged the dimension_

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## Eric Fairbanks

My question would be the continued theme in this thread. How small can a small sword be?  I believe this one to be a later example even than a WK &C but only a guess. No measurments with me only a few photos, but it is small in the grip. It does have a nice brass scabbard that is some what beat up. The blade is very flexible, limber even.

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## Gene Wilkinson

> Total length on the Horstmann is 33 3/4" with the blade  27 1/4". That actually seems pretty reasonable to me, pinching the quillion block using the pas de ane for steerage.. A sword that first struck me as tiny when first viewed in person were the German civil degen but I guess I has just gotten accustomed to the size surprise when first we meet   I have a slotted hilt spadroon with a 32"blade that is too small for me to hold in a hammer grip but electing more of a smallsword grip, it fits fine (I have quite large hands). That fighting sword has a hilt shorter than the numbers of the sword above.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Hotspur; _photos always make things seem bigger if there is nothing there to guaged the dimension_


Hi Glen,
Thanks for that, I wonder if Giles sword is a similar size?
So the hilt is 6 1/2" overall? That's a fair bit more than the similar sword that I have.
Which is 31" overall with a 26 1/2" blade.

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## Giles Kirby

Hello again chaps, i'm back home now, and have a few more pictures and measurements of the smallsword.
I've also found another picture of the spine of the sabre, which has this marking on it:
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Just a quick Google suggests a Swedish/Norwegian sword..can anyone confirm this? 

Anyway...pictures of the smallsword, and some measurements:
Overall-33.5"  Hilt-5.5"  Blade-28"
I don't have particularly large hands (size 9/10 glove) It is not very comfortable in a hammer grip, but it is perfectly useable in other grips, and it is a very nimble little sword. I retract my previous statement about not being much use in a real fight, as long as the other guy has a smallsword too!
There is a small '43' marked on the scabbard, which definitely belongs with the sword.....Any clues?
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## Giles Kirby

Oh, and thank you so much for all the information so far....This forum is great!

I wonder if I should have started a separate thread for the smallsword, so It is not missed under the Sabre title.
Admin.....could you help there?

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## Gene Wilkinson

> Oh, and thank you so much for all the information so far....This forum is great!


Hi Giles
That's put it into context nicely for me thanks.
Your grip looks to be 4" inbetween the bars of the knucklebow.
That would be right I would say for a small civil service/court sword sized hilt.

I misjudged the scale from the first picture and thought it was the same size as mine.
Between the bars of the knucklebow on mine is 2 3/4".

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## Giles Kirby

No problem Gene, I think my example is about as small as you could practicably go for a useable adult sword. Maybe yours really is a boys sword? I've just been looking at the ricasso of the Horstman example. Has this been ground down and re-stamped? It looks like it has been, on both sides if you look at the pictures...

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