# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  Horstmann dates

## Glen C.

Does this list appear to be complete?

W. H. HORSTMANN / PHILA.  1820-1850 
W. H. HORSTMANN / NEW YORK  1820-1837 
W. H. HORSTMANN & SONS  1843-1863 
W. H. HORSTMANN & CO. / PHILA. 1864-1866 
W. H. HORSTMANN & CO. / NEW YORK 1837-1847 
HORSTMANN BROS & CO. / PHILA  1859-1863 
HORSTMANN BROS & CO. / NEW YORK 1850-1852 
HORSTMANN BROS & ALLIEN  1852-1877 
HORSTMANN BROS & DRUCKER  1844-1850 
HORSTMANN / PHILADELPHIA  1893-1935

Cheers

Hotspur; _any amendments? Additions?_

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## Glen C.

Horstman William H. & Co. lace and fringe weavers 45 and 53 N. 3d
Horstman Wm. fringe maker 88 Cherry

Both from an 1823 Philadelphia directory

Horstmann William H. fringe&c. 94 William

This last from Longworth's American almanac for NYC 1834

As more of these directories come to light, it may behoove some collectors to look at more than some of the sword bibles we come to lean on. From what I am finding, nailing the Philly and NYC dates as some absolute may become error, in the end. These are just two examples.

Cheers

Hotspur; _turns out Wells was bi-metro as well_

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## Glen C.

\ William H. Horstmann & Sons Manufactory.

Is the oldest and principal establishment in Philadelphia for the manufacture of Ribbons, Military Trimmings, and Narrow Textile Fabrics. It is one that adds to the manufacturing importance, not only of the city in which it is located, but of the country. Its productions rival in elegance and substantial excellence those of France and Switzerland, and are sold by importing houses indiscriminately with their foreign importations.

The founder of this house, Mr. William H. Horstmann, was educated in the workshops of Europe, under the old system which demanded the production of a. masterpiece of workmanship before an apprentice could receive a license to practice his trade as a master workman. He was a native of Germany, but came to this country in early manhood, and in 1815 commenced in Philadelphia the manufacture of trimmings. At that time there were but two patterns of coach lace made in this country, which were called after the Presidents, Jefferson and Monroe. Naturally ingenious, Mr. Horstmann set about enlarging the scope of the pursuit in which he had embarked, and to him probably more than to any other man, the business is indebted for its present perfection in this country. In 1824, he introduced from Germany the Plaiting or Braiding Machines, and in the succeeding year the Jacquard machines. Gold laces were made by power in Philadelphia, several years before it was attempted in Europe, and the use of power for making fringes may be said to have been first generally adopted here. In fact, we believe this firm was the first in any country to apply power to the general manufacture. Since the decease of Mr. Horstmann, the business has been conducted by his sons, and with what ability they have discharged the trust committed to them is evidenced in the present importance of their establishment. They have made several important inventions, as we have elsewhere mentioned, and their list of mannfactures embraces a wide circle of fabrics of silk, silk and worsted, mohair, cotton, gold and silver thread, including some descriptions not made elsewhere in this country, besides every variety of military trimmings, not excepting swords, drums, and metal ornaments. Silk ribbons are made here, which are equal in all respects, not only in brilliancy of coloring and weight of material, but in evenness of manufacture to those of the looms of Lyons and St. Etienne. The English Commissioners to the Worlds Fair referred in their Report on the Industry of the United States to this establishment as presenting an example of system and neatness rarely found in manufactories in which handicrafts so varied are carried on.

The manufactory is situated at the corner of Fifth and Cherry streets, formerly the burying ground of the German Lutherans, and bought of the congregation owning the old church (built 1743) on the opposite side of Cherry street. The building forms an L, having a front of one hundred and forty feet on Fifth street, one hundred feet on Cherry street, and fifty feet wide, containing six floors. The engine house and machine shops are in a detached building in the yard. The machinery in operation in the factory is new, much of it original, and includes 130 Coach Luce Power Looms, 100 Power Looms, making 550 stripes, or rows of goods, 336 Silk Spindles, and other complete silk machinery, 400 Plaitiug or Braiding Machines, 50 hand Looms, using over 160 Jacquard machines, ranging from 40 to 800 needles; besides all the auxiliary machinery necessary in the business.

Adjoining the-manufactory on Cherry street, the firm own an additional lot, bought of the Friends, having a front of seventy-five feet on that street. The building on this, formerly a Meeting house, they have converted into a salesroom.

In 1857, Messrs. Horstmanu purchased the entire stock, materials, looms, and patent rights of the Clinton Company, of Clinton, Mass., who were the largest manufacturers of coach lace in America. The designs of the best qualities of the laces, in which silk is freely used, are unsurpassed.

Since the commencement of the present rebellion, the Military Depot connected with this manufactory has been a general and most popular resort of the volunteers of the Federal army, especially oflicers, who have there been able to find every article necessary to equip them for active service or holiday display. The immense manufacturing facilities of the firm enabled them to meet promptly a. sudden and pressing demand and supply a national want.

~~~~~~~~~~~
The above from

A history of American manufactures, from 1608 to 1860: exhibiting ..., Volume 2
 By John Leander Bishop, Edwin Troxell Freedley, Edward Young
Edward Young & Co., 1864
http://books.google.com/books?id=DQ5aAAAAYAAJ

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In the sword tips thread at the head of the room, I had pointed to another abstract.




> An interesting abstract from 1875 for the William H. Horstmann manufactory.
> 
> http://www.workshopoftheworld.com/ce...horstmann.html
> 
> The root of the site may also be useful for other research of Philadelphia.
> 
> http://www.workshopoftheworld.com/index.html
> 
> Cheers
> ...


~~~~~~~~~~~

The old directories are way cool. The 1823 directory was from a different ebook source aside from Archive.org and Google books
http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-en...1823-lih.shtml

Cheers

Hotspur; _still more questions than answers though. A true Way Back would answer a lot of queries_

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## Mark Cloke

In studying the trade directories for Birmingham, UK (and I would assume the same practices applied in other countries) dates should only ever be used as approximates.  Often directories took years to compile, were sometimes copied verbatim by other publishers and often relied on 'subscribers' to inform the publisher of changes for inclusion in the next print.  Companies also often had to pay to be listed.  Therefore a missing entry doesn't always mean that they did not exist.  The accuracy and practices improved greatly over the course of 19th century.
They are a great resource but just a word of warning to anyone taking them as gospel (the same as any reference material, my site included!)

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## Glen C.

Hi Mark

As with other large cutlery centers, the information on blade marks is also compounded by  stock laid away over a period of some decades. This may well put actual assembly of an item some time well after the blades were marked. The excerpt of information in a link above points to the store of blades built to suit.

_The one article of swords may be taken as an instance. This trade grew naturally and immediately out of the established army and navy goods department of the works, it being necessary that the sword itself should be furnished together with the sword-belt and other trappings all complete. Every part of the sword and trappings, with the exception of the blade, is made on the premises. The blades are almost all imported from the ancient German sword-blade emporium of Solingen, where, it is said, swords have been made ever since the year 1147, when Count Adolphus of Berg brought home from the East and established there the business of forging Damascus blades. There is in this department a stock of some thousands of blades, of many different patterns and sizes, ready to be set and finished. Any style or sword can be had from this warehouse, from the plainest kind up to a presentation sword worth a thousand dollars. In addition to their own vast capacity for manufacturing goods, this firm also import and sell large quantities of goods manufactured elsewhere. 

Charles Robson, Manufactories & Manufacturers of Pennsylvania (Galaxy, 1875), pp. 406-8
_

Another (in almost exactly the same words) by an American chronicler and compiler, Horace Greeley. 

There is a pdf out there  for the Horstmann-Lippincott families that briefly relates the elder and sons, with the first sword business an acquisition of a business. A bit of a different angle in looking at the growth of the business.
http://www.hsp.org/sites/www.hsp.org...findingaid.pdf

Cheers

Hotspur; _it was an interesting Horstmann mark that had me thinking about the history again. This one on a Bavarian 1826 looking sword_

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## Mark Cloke

> Hi Mark
> 
> As with other large cutlery centers, the information on blade marks is also compounded by  stock laid away over a period of some decades. This may well put actual assembly of an item some time well after the blades were marked.


Absolutely!  Expecially with regard to 'trade' blades shipped around the world for mounting and sometimes rehilted due to changes in fashion or damage.

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## Richard Schenk

> Does this list appear to be complete?
> 
> W. H. HORSTMANN / PHILA.  1820-1850 
> W. H. HORSTMANN / NEW YORK  1820-1837 
> W. H. HORSTMANN & SONS  1843-1863 
> W. H. HORSTMANN & CO. / PHILA. 1864-1866 
> W. H. HORSTMANN & CO. / NEW YORK 1837-1847 
> HORSTMANN BROS & CO. / PHILA  1859-1863 
> HORSTMANN BROS & CO. / NEW YORK 1850-1852 
> ...


How about "HORSTMANN/PHILEDELPHIA/&/NEW YORK"?   I have a Civil War era M1860 Staff & Field Officers sword marked in block letters near the base of the reverse side of the blade with this address.  I have not seen this address used on any other sword.  Have other members run across other examples? Any idea the dates it was used?

The hilt of the sword in question is like the second Horstmann sword illustrated on p442-3 of Thilmann's work on CW Army swords, but the blade does not appear to be a Weyersburg product.  It has no maker's name or symbol on the ricasso, and the etching design is somewhat different from other M1860s I've seen.  One difference is the federal eagle is not holding or surmounted by an "e pluribus unum" ribbon.

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## Richard Schenk

> Does this list appear to be complete?
> 
> W. H. HORSTMANN / PHILA.  1820-1850 
> W. H. HORSTMANN / NEW YORK  1820-1837 
> W. H. HORSTMANN & SONS  1843-1863 
> W. H. HORSTMANN & CO. / PHILA. 1864-1866 
> W. H. HORSTMANN & CO. / NEW YORK 1837-1847 
> HORSTMANN BROS & CO. / PHILA  1859-1863 
> HORSTMANN BROS & CO. / NEW YORK 1850-1852 
> ...


It appears Horstmann used the signature "HORSTMANN/PHILADELPHIA" on at least some swords in the 1860s.  Attached are the addresses on two M1860 S&F Officer swords from that period.  The second sword pictured has a presentation inscription to a "Capt. V.M. Healy" on the rear counterguard.  Presumably the presentation was made prior to 24 Nov 1863, the date Capt Healy was promoted to Major, and certainly before 24 June 1871 when he died.



Also, here is an image of the  "HORSTMANN/PHILADELPHIA/&/NEW YORK" address from another M1860 S&F which I reported previously (Sorry about the lighting):

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## Glen C.

Great examples for comparison.  These can be helpful to determine a timeline when retailer and maker etching was becoming more and more commonplace.

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## Richard Schenk

> Does this list appear to be complete?
> 
> W. H. HORSTMANN / PHILA.  1820-1850 
> W. H. HORSTMANN / NEW YORK  1820-1837 
> W. H. HORSTMANN & SONS  1843-1863 
> W. H. HORSTMANN & CO. / PHILA. 1864-1866 
> W. H. HORSTMANN & CO. / NEW YORK 1837-1847 
> HORSTMANN BROS & CO. / PHILA  1859-1863 
> HORSTMANN BROS & CO. / NEW YORK 1850-1852 
> ...


I believe we have to move the end dates for the "W. H. HORSTMANN & SONS" marking forward at least a couple of decades.  It was used on the USMC M1859/75 NCO sword with the blade etched "U.S.M.C." which was not adopted until the uniform regulation of 1875, and it was still being used when the scabbards for Staff NCOs was changed from frog to sling suspension in the 1880s.  Here are a couple photos of the USMC swords with the "& SONS" formulation:

M1859/75 NCO Sword



M1859/75 Staff NCO Sword

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## Richard Schenk

> How about "HORSTMANN/PHILEDELPHIA/&/NEW YORK"?   I have a Civil War era M1860 Staff & Field Officers sword marked in block letters near the base of the reverse side of the blade with this address.  I have not seen this address used on any other sword.  Have other members run across other examples? Any idea the dates it was used?


Just ran across a second example of a Horstmann with both Philadelphia and NY in the address.  It is another M1860 S&F sword, this one made by the Parisian firm of Francois Delacour & Bakes.  The blade is not marked with the Horstmann name, but the scabbard is stamped on the reverse between the throat and the first band "HORSTMANN/PHILA. & N.Y.".  The scabbard appears to be German silver, not nickel-plated iron - a magnet will not stick to it. 

  

The question remains, when did Horstmann use the dual-cities address?   These swords are rather hard to date since the styles seem to overlap considerably.  This one, however, has the characteristics usually associated with CW-era, i.e. a plain rear counterguard and a two-ring scabbard.   Any thoughts?

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## Glen C.

I doubt the Delacour & Bakes began life together with the scabbard.

In viewing just a two ring scabbard dating the specific item to only the ACW would be a stretch but look for the last listing for Horstmann in NYC.

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## Richard Schenk

> I doubt the Delacour & Bakes began life together with the scabbard.
> 
> In viewing just a two ring scabbard dating the specific item to only the ACW would be a stretch but look for the last listing for Horstmann in NYC.


That was my initial though as well, but then I compared it to the scabbard on my SHG Delacour M1860, and they seem quite similar:



I also have another Horstmann M1860 which is marked with the Horstmann logo and looks like a FDB product but is not so marked, which has a similar German silver scabbard, albeit with three rings (and bend).



Given these comparables, I'm still not certain, but I tend to believe the scabbard is original to the sword.

I don't know if a "Horstmann/New York" marking was ever used by itself, at least after 1860.  During the time frame this sword was produced I understand they used "Horstmann Bros & Allien/New York" between 1852 and 1877.  I suspect the "Philadelphia and New York" address was used for swords produced for the main Philadelphia branch, but why and when they were produced I don't know.  It would be nice to have the dates nailed down to help date swords such as this.

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