# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Middle-East, India & Africa (MEIA) >  Wootz barrel

## C. Roca

Folks,
I have an old converted matchlock with an Indian crystalline wootz crucible steel barrel. I think the forum rules disallow gun talk, but is it ok to discuss the wootz barrel as it may be of interest to wootz sword collectors?
Regards
Celia

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## Manouchehr M.

As long as it is  barrel no problem.  Are you sure it is a crucible steel barrel and not a pattern welded one?  If the latter your example will turn many assumptions in research regarding the suitability of the crucible steel upside down.  I would love to see that.

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## C. Roca

Manoucher,
100% not pattern welded/twist type steel. I have swords with crystaline wootz (as well as Turkish Sham, and Persian wootz), and another musket with damascus twist. I'll try to enclose photos. It is an unusual barrel in other respects. It has a square cross section, and it is chiseled with the Avatars of Vishnu. 
Regards,
Celia

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## Manouchehr M.

Indeed crucible steel Celia.  The barrel is strange could you post a pic of the barrel mouth?  What is the fire mechanism?

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## C. Roca

Manouchehr,
It has been converted (a long time ago during the use period) to a percussion lock. The hammer is fashioned as a tiger. Barrel mouth photo enclosed. I think Dr. Feuerbach was interested in whether wootz was used in gun barrels as well.
Regards,
Celia

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## C. Roca

Speculation on why crucible steel gun barrels are hard to find:

Some people have speculated that wootz declined due to depletion of specific ore deposits. Around that same time, gun technology was advancing at a rapid pace. Fire mechanisms were changing to be more and more reliable in battlefield environments. Guns with older fire mechanism technology would become obsolete. Since pattern welded barrel manufacturing technology continued (to this day), new guns were manufactured with new barrels. If it's true that wootz can be melted down and retain it's properties, perhaps  as the available of wootz ore became scare, remaining wootz barrels were more valuable as a sword blade than a gun barrel. These guns were then repurposed into swords.

Any thoughts?

Regards,
Celia

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## Manouchehr M.

Celia

I wonder what kind of bullet would have fitted to that barrel.  Very interesting indeed

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## Mark McMorrow

Celia, 

Very interesting item.  Thank you for posting.  Please post pics of the the entire weapon.   :Smilie: 

Mark ~

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## C. Roca

Manouchehr,
I'm pretty certain a ball was used. While unusual, square barrels were experimented with. There is a damascus twist square barrel matchlock on page 136 of Figiel.
Mark,
Full weapon pic below.
Regards,
Celia

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## Roy Shadbolt

Hi Chaps,

I'm certainly no expert in this area but just wanted to say that this is a very interesting item/topic and just goes to show that there is always something fascinating and new to learn.  Many thanks for posting this it may be leaning a little off the topic of this forum but this is a great reason why sometimes it's important to stretch the rules a little.  Terrific to see this.

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## Manouchehr M.

Celia

For my future book on Persian firearms, we are going to experiment with matchlocks, flintlocks and percussion caps and possibly a bronze cannon.  I would love to see how such a barrel bhaves upon shooting,   Great wapon.  Thanks for posting it.
Regards
Manouchehr

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## C. Roca

Ron,
Thanks for your interest (and its always nice to be considered one of the chaps). I had a feeling some eastern sword collectors would be interested in this because of the wootz.
Manouchehr,
Good luck with your next book. I have your book, "Arms and Armor from Iran". I use it frequently and have learned immensely from it. While a square barrel might actually improve muzzle velocity, I would expect accuracy to suffer a bit. Please let me know if you'd like any other images.
Regards,
Celia

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## Will Mathieson

Square bore shape cannot withstand higher pressures, velocity would be at lower levels or no higher than any blackpowder firearm. This is why bottles that contain liquids that can increase pressure are cylindrical, and the bottom usually concave, square/rectangular ones would burst.

"Puckle demonstrated two versions of the basic design. One weapon, intended for use against Christian enemies, fired conventional round bullets, while the second variant, designed to be used against the Muslim Turks, fired square bullets, which were believed to cause more severe and painful wounds than spherical" 
Puckle died in 1724.

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## C. Roca

Great point Will. If the bullet were round too much of the pressure of the blast would escape past the bullet.

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## Manouchehr M.

> Ron,
> Thanks for your interest (and its always nice to be considered one of the chaps). I had a feeling some eastern sword collectors would be interested in this because of the wootz.
> Manouchehr,
> Good luck with your next book. I have your book, "Arms and Armor from Iran". I use it frequently and have learned immensely from it. While a square barrel might actually improve muzzle velocity, I would expect accuracy to suffer a bit. Please let me know if you'd like any other images.
> Regards,
> Celia


Celia
Many thanks for your kind words. Would you please let me know via pm whether you have any Persian firearms that you would lik to be published?
Regards
Manouchehr

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## Manouchehr M.

Thanks Will exactly we need a square bullet so the pressure dos not escape:
a) Do you have any examples of such bullets you could show?
b) Would you please mention the complete source above?
Kind regards
Manouchehr

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## David Lewis Smith

really nice looking work.  I am completely fascinated by both the workmanship and design.
I would highly recommend NOT test firing it how ever.  Even round barrel antiques are touching about use.  

I am going to dig around and see what I can find about square barrels and projectiles.  

A sudden thought popped to mind that maybe it is a ceremonial  fire arm or "Guard of Honor" weapon.

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## Will Mathieson

Here is a source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Puckle
I'm sure the idea may have been copied in this rifle.
I would believe square bullets are quite rare, if any originals exist today. 

I agree with David, do not fire the gun, the square shape does not handle pressure well and any corrosion (even unseen) finding its way into the layers of steel will weaken it more. The results can be deadly.

Cerrosafe can help to determine the calibre of the bore and the shape, it may not be exactly square.
Here is a link to the material: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/462...g-alloy-1-2-lb
It would be difficult to use this at the muzzle but it is possible, would need something inserted into the material to help remove it, to act as a handle such as a wire etc. Also require a plug so it does not pour further down than necessary.
The casting could be fashioned into a bullet for display.

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## C. Roca

Manouchehr,
I don't have any Persian guns, but thank you. My focus is swords, we got the gun because of our interest in the steel. My apologies, but what is pm?
David,
I like the ceremonial weapon idea, interesting that they went through the trouble of converting the lock.
Will,
Thanks for the great references.
Regards,
Celia

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## Manouchehr M.

David
We are not going to fire any antique guns only reeplicas.  Although you will bee surprised to se how well many antiques still handle the pressure provided you check the barrel first.  I have seen people shooting old European guns and cannons.  They are marvelous. But we will not do that for sure.
Will
Many thanks for the reference excellent really.  It is off topic but do you know of any old European manual on casting bronze cannons?
Celia
I meant private message. Thanks
Kind regards
Manouchehr

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## Will Mathieson

See the cannon Makers Column in this search:

https://www.google.ca/#hl=en&sclient...w=1024&bih=571

"Gun Founding
Cannon cast of bronze or iron quickly replaced the first built-up wrought-iron guns when improved gunpowder was developed.  The technology of bell casting was easily adapted for cannon, together with the formulas for the copper and tin alloy which made bronze cannon so successful.
The first step was the preparation of a full-scale pattern or model of clay applied over a wooden core wrapped with heavy rope.  This model was finished with any decorations, trunions and dolphins, or lifting handles, and was baked to prepare it for the making of a mold.
The earliest molds were made of clay, in sections, bound together with iron straps for casting.  By the middle of the eighteenth century, iron flasks filled with sand were used to produce the finished mold.  The complete molds were dried over a fire to insure they were completely dry, since any moisture present during casting could cause a violent explosion when touched by the molten metal.  For casting, molds were placed vertically in a pit, cascable down, and the molten material was poured into the muzzle end.  An extension, known as the deadhead, was left to collect slag and insure an even weight of metal to fill the mold.   This was cut off after the casting had cooled.  The bore was made by inserting a clay core into the mold, or by drilling out the solid casting.  Drilled bores were much more accurate, and were used almost entirely after 1750.  Large boring machines were created to drill the deep holes needed.  Powered by water wheels or animals, the first machines mounted the cannon vertically, but later machines held the cannon horizontally.  The drill bits or cutters were stationary and the cannon were made to revolve.
The exterior of a bronze cannon was finished by lathe turning, hand filing and chasing to highlight decorative elements.  Iron cannon were given minimal surface cleaning since they rarely had raised decoration, and were painted to prevent rusting.  Gun numbers and weights were stamped or engraved at various locations on the exterior according to regulations in effect at the time of casting."

Google finds many other sites too.

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## Manouchehr M.

The problem is that I am looking for a mauscript with perod terminology of 15 to 16 century cannon casting.  Not modrn terms.

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## Will Mathieson

Possibly contacting that web site or others will produce something. At some point this info must have originated from period manuscripts. 
British or French museums should have something as those countries were larger makers of cannon, being naval powers.

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## Will Mathieson

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_la_pirotechnia  mentions an Italian manuscript. Vannoccio Biringuccio was a member of Fraternita di Santa Barbara, which held the secrets of metalurgy and military.

http://www.columbia.edu/acis/textarc...re/rare12.html they may have something or know where to find it.

I'm sure web searches could produce one, but with so much info regarding cannon, military, gunpowder it's hard to find a particular item.

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## Manouchehr M.

Thank you Will  I really appreciate that

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## David Lewis Smith

I asked a friend and this was his response

That's an odd one. The only other weapon I knew that used square projectiles was the Puckle gun, which was sort of a large revolving cannon from the 1700's. It could interchangeably fire regular round shot, and square rounds as well, the idea was that you would use the square shot against Turks and Saracens, and round shot against other "Christian" nations (Puckle thought that square shot would have been more damaging to a human body than round shot, so it was okay to use against non-Christians, but it was perfectly fine to shoot "Christian" enemies with the round shot). Anyway the Puckle gun was a failure.

He does not want to post here but sends his complements to Mr. Manouchehr.
Very respectfully
David L Smith

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## Manouchehr M.

Thanks a lot for this information and my kind regards to your friend.  Isn't it strange that they even made a difference regardng bullets and who sits at th receiving end!  Indeed very interesting information,

Kind regards
Manouchehr

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## C. Roca

http://akaalarms.com/blog/
The folks at Akaal Arms have a great blog with photos from the Royal Armouries at Leeds. In part 8 there is a matchlock long gun with a square barrel (doesn't look like wootz) but with a round bore.

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## John Wallace

I'm glad to see this topic given free rein, as it seems so much more related to early weapons technology than to modern firearms.

It is a fascinating weapon, obviously well made. Guns of this shape are almost certainly Indian, though the bayonet leads me to think it could be European influenced. Most were indeed matchlocks, but I wouldnt discount the possibility that it is 19th century and made for percussion from the start. Indications might be any blocked screwholes, holes drilled through engraving, or the lock interior and wood recess being adapted to a more powerful mainspring than a matchlock would need.

It might never have used anything but lead shot, which the bayonet, not impossible as a boarhunting weapon, makes me think were probably large. Large, paper-wrapped bundles of cubical buckshot could nest neatly in that bore, without the possibility of a jam on the way out. Smaller square shot are still sometimes used, chiefly in France, to shoot small game at very close ranges in cover, as they spread out more. But a square bullet is far from impossible., and a round one of the right, slightly heavier weight could easily have been hammered into a cube. 

We don't really need to look further for motive than the desire to be different. In Greener's "The Gun and its Development" (by the most innovative of the great gunmaking family), there is a picture of a wheel-lock sporting carbine with the interior of the bore shaped like a fleur-de-lys in tribute to its owner, Louis XIII of France, although one might suspect a cancelled order by someone whose emblem was a small beetroot. That one might have been intended to fire two balls of different sizes, of which the advantages are hard to see, but the disadvantages numerous. My point is that we aren't necessarily talking practical logic here.

The same book illustrates the Puckle "machine-gun", and I can see no reason why it wouldn't work well,  as long as it didn't depend on square bullets in a round bore. But the technology of the time wasn't up to making it more than a hand-made rarity.

It is sometimes thought that rifled bores originated when straight grooves, intended to collect the gummy fouling of the early black powder, were accidentally made spiral, and found to improve accuracy. Well, spiral rifling probably existed before any known firearm with straight grooves, but it doesn't seem to have been known to all that the latter wouldn't work. Someone may harve thought that this idea, with a straight something, might have the same effect.

It actually looks substantial enough to be quite strong, even as the less efficient square vessel, although close to the breech is where strength really counts. Modern shotguns, with modern cartridges, could in theory be made thin enough to cut with scissors. It is the danger of dents, pitting or obstructions that prevent it. I agree that it shouldn't be fired. I have fired younger and frailer-looking muzzle loaders worth hundreds, after careful examination, with no fears. But this one is worth many thousands to someone, and I am worth even more to me.

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## John Wallace

An excellent book on muzzle-loading cannon and their manufacture is ""British Smooth-bore Artillery" by Major-General BP Hughes (Arms and Armour Press, London, 1969.) It basically covers techniques in use from around 1730, but it has excellent illustrations of a multiple, horse-powered bore drilling machine (apparently French), and of the iron casing used to contain a thin sand mould for one-time use. By this time a metal pattern had replaced the earlier clay model used to form the mould. It is described as being copper, but copper doesn't cast well, and why not cast your pattern if you can cast a gun? The misnomer, copper for brass or bronze, can creep into a translation from French, and the so-called brass cannon was usually bronze.

Another book, "The Story of the Guns" by Sir Emerson Tennant, is principally about the Armstrong versus Whitworth rivalry in artillery design of the 1860s. But it yields one interesting piece of information about why drilling the bore was more important in iron than in bronze. As you increase the size of an iron casting, you end up not increasing the strength at all, since the centre remains spongy, and  If a gun bursts, which in the largest sizes it very likely will, you can dig a hand tool into it. Drilling, presumably, removed that.

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## C. Roca

Mr. Wallace,
Thank you for the insights. I can tell you that the gun was modified. The stock behind the breech was carved to allow the percussion hammer to move freely. The bayonet is spring loaded and looks like a flick bayonet from a blunderbuss. The bayonet is original, being made of the same crystalline wootz as the barrel.
Regards,
Celia

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## John Wallace

Thank you for those kind words. The spring-loaded folding bayonet supports my belief that this gun isn't anything like as old as a European matchlock would be, and is probably European influenced. I think those probably existed in the eighteenth century in Europe, but are more a nineteenth century thing, on pistols and blunderbusses. 

East and west weren't as hermetically sealed as some imagine. At a considerably earlier period Italian architects were employed on the Taj Mahal, and the Sikhs, before their wars with the British, employed the best European mercenaries and cannon-founders they could get. Spanish barrels were imported in the days before the northern European gunmakers felt confident about their barrels. This was quite some time after the big event of 1492, the expulsion of the Moors from Spain, but it is possible that a remnant of the wootz steel trade was used in this field.

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## C. Roca

Mr. Wallace,
Thank you again for the keen insights. This weapon is indeed unusual. The stock is unmistakably that of a Torador. The butt and comb have the pentagonal cross section. The stock behind the breech is that of a Torador and was carved out later to fit the percussion lock and hammer. As you said, the bayonet must be of European influence. The bayonet is of triangular cross section, another interesting feature.
Regards,
Celia

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