# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  Ancient and Honorable Artillery Company Saber   1913

## Dale Martin

What do you fine fellows think of this 1913 dated Carl Eichorn made Saber??

Dale

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## Dale Martin

I was wondering if we ever found out if it was model of 1870 or 1872 ?? Is this the only US Saber of a Prussian or German style officially adopted ??

Dale

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## Richard Schenk

> I was wondering if we ever found out if it was model of 1870 or 1872 ?? Is this the only US Saber of a Prussian or German style officially adopted ??
> 
> Dale


Actually, Farrington in his latest book has shown pretty decisively it's the model of 1882.  The M1872, which was never adopted, was essentially the same as the cavalry M1872 but with crossed cannon vice crossed swords on the back of the pommel.  This Prussian style was adopted in 1882 and reflects the influence of the Prussian vice French designs on US military thinking.

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## Dale Martin

Richard: Thanks, I have always liked this saber, and thought it was Prussian....BTW: The Historian at the A&H wants to buy it for their museum. My wife has taken custody of it though!!

This fine item was stashed at an on line dealer's site for 5 years, someone wanted it, and they put it aside for him. The deal was never made and it was relisted. I saw it and bought it immediately. Any German Saber made in 1913 for a US seller just has to be rescued!

Dale

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## George Wheeler

This is a neat sword Dale.  I love it!

Does it have a rank on the blade presentation by chance?

The Ancient and Honorable Artillery Company of Boston swords are really interesting to me.  This P guard example is the first one I have seen made like this.  It does have the typical fancy scabbard band mount with two rings mounted to the ornate band that was used by the A&HAC.  

Here is an example of a Harding made US M1902 Army Officer Saber.  Interestingly enough, these Officer swords were worn by Sergeants in the A&HAC.

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## Dale Martin

George: According to the unit historian, this fellow was a Sergeant, elected/appointed in 1913...The same source told me that he was in the unit for some time, and did not fight in WW 1. Apparently, they were allowed to carry what ever sword they wanted, but they used the Artillery Saber until the 1930's when they became hard to buy, thereafter they used the Mod 1902 as it was available. They used the leather, totally gold, and the blue/gold knot as a matter of preference by the individual involved. The historian did not elaborate on the Infantry vs. Artillery usages...

Dale

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## Shawn Gibson

More Ancient and Honorable items.  Their bayonet scabbard rosette.

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## George Wheeler

Dale,

It is interesting that both our swords were presented in 1913.  Since yours is an Artillery Wing it makes some sense that it is a P guard style of sword.  Mine being an Infantry Section Sergeant it also makes some sense that it is a different style of sword.  

Shawn,

I have never seen one of these A&HAC bayonets before.  You come up with some of the neatest odd-ball bayonets.  Is the bayonet "US" marked or plain?  I have been in their museum and armory but never saw either a sword like Dale's or a bayonet like Shawn's in either place.


OK... here is the standard circa 1870s A&HAC sword.  Any idea when these started being worn?

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## Richard Schenk

> OK... here is the standard circa 1870s A&HAC sword.  Any idea when these started being worn?


Good question.  Peterson tells us 1870 to 1890 time frame, but I've always had my doubts.  The style would have been rather anachronistic if it were adopted in the 1870s when the military was down-sizing its swords, e.g. the M1872 cavalry and Navy swords.  The style, size and materials of this AHAC saber and its scabbard are all more typical of what would be expected from a saber adopted in the 1840s or 1850s.  Do the curators of the AHAC museum have any comments on this?

Another question:  Was this model saber used by any other militia groups?  There seem to be quite a few around, perhaps more than would be expected if used solely by the AHAC.

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## Shawn Gibson

George,

The bayonet is a standard US M1873 bayonet with the normal US markings.  The A&H rosette scabbards are extremely rare.  But they do pop up from time to time.

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## Glen C.

Since most of the older pattern in these last post seem to have been sold through Ames and H.V. Allien, it still seems to me they were post war.  Allien worked with Horstmann into the 1870s but was somewhat independent as early as the 1850s.  If we go back to the available Ames catalog, it really looks to me like the old pattern was using up old 1840 artillery blades with the unstopped fuller.

It seems another inquiry to the A&HAC might be in order.  Perhaps the more elaborate form was meant for officers and they co-existed with the reverse P guards until the 20th century.  IIRC, the Ames catalog lists them, so they would indeed be fair game for other associations.  We have just come to see the old pattern more frequently that they have been listed as just a matter of course.  

I had posted a picture in George's thread on the old pattern that shows the sword rack, a long row of them  (that all look like the old pattern) .  The company at the turn of the century must have been a roster of some hundreds for parade days.  Also linked in the thread is a book about the company.
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...ber&highlight=



https://books.google.com/books?id=q5hoNuEJPMoC

There are several other volumes and annual records in a Google book search

Cheers

Hotspur; _there has been one of the old pattern listed on and off for a long time_

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## George Wheeler

Yep, these guys certainly marched to the tune of their own drummer.  One reason I like US Militia edged weapons is that they tend to be somewhat out of regulation, AKA odd-ball.  

I have always doubted Peterson's 1870 date as well.  No doubt worn from/into the 1870s but some have un-etched blades (like mine shown above) and some have makers and etching on the blade, so when were they bought and put into service.  Notice that my sword has a heavy coating of old gold paint on the brass.  This patina treatment is a sure sign of being displayed in a Grand Army of the Republic (GAR) hall.  This does not make it a Civil War carried sword but gives us a tantalizing hint of that possibility.  I have no dog in the fight of when these swords were first worn but I sure would be interested in finding out.  We probably have the same dilemma that Peterson had... when were they authorized?

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## Glen C.

Well, the kicker is that the photo is from a book published in 1914.  That would suggest them to be used into the 20th century.

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## Richard Schenk

> Well, the kicker is that the photo is from a book published in 1914.  That would suggest them to be used into the 20th century.


I suppose the follow-on question is when was the photo was taken?  It appears the rifles in the picture are M1884 Springfields which had been phased out of the regular Army in the 1890s.  They were retained, however, by some militia/National Guard units well into the 20th century, so their presence in the Armory may not be too useful in dating the photo.

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## Glen C.

"It seems another inquiry to the A&HAC might be in order. "

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## T. Graham

Here is another. Based on the date it was made by Lilley-Ames and retailed by E.O. Bartles Co., Boston. The blade etching pattern is the Ames type 2 originally used on the Springfield M1902's and later on Ames commercial 02's. It is occasionally found on Lilley-Ames 02's

Please ignore the Harding picture, it belongs to another A&HAC 02.

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## T. Graham

Oh, You want to see the other one. This one was made by Ames Sword Co. and retailed by Harding Uniform, Boston.

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## T. Graham

Similar to the pre 1850 type above, this is the earlier version with the blade etched "Ancient & Honorable Artillery Company 1638". Also shown is the page from the Ames Sword Co. catalog showing the plain blade version.

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## T. Graham

> What do you fine fellows think of this 1913 dated Carl Eichorn made Saber??
> 
> Dale


It was made by Ames. I would like to see more of the blade. Here is an Ames for Oak Hall with same hilt.

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## Dale Martin

T: Tang is clearly marked with the raised "CE" which appears also on German weapons as well, like the Mod 1889 IOD. If I can get the pix reduced, I will post it here. There are no Ames marking anywhere on this one...I do not doubt that Ames used Carl Eichorn blades at all, just that they did not mark the work.

A bit fuzzy, but the same mark is on one of my IOD 1889's and several other German or Prussian weapons.

Dale

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## T. Graham

> T: Tang is clearly marked with the raised "CE" which appears also on German weapons as well, like the Mod 1889 IOD. If I can get the pix reduced, I will post it here. There are no Ames marking anywhere on this one...I do not doubt that Ames used Carl Eichorn blades at all, just that they did not mark the work.
> 
> A bit fuzzy, but the same mark is on one of my IOD 1889's and several other German or Prussian weapons. 
> 
> Dale


Those initials are not much help. This sword was likely made after 1890, so if the blade was imported is should be marked Germany on the tang. Karl Eickhorn's initials are, obviously, K.E. I need to see the etching pattern because I think this may be an M1902 blade and scabbard with the type 3 Ames artillery hilt. This would be easy to put together. Hmm, I do have some parts....

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## Dale Martin

> Those initials are not much help. This sword was likely made after 1890, so if the blade was imported is should be marked Germany on the tang. Karl Eickhorn's initials are, obviously, K.E. I need to see the etching pattern because I think this may be an M1902 blade and scabbard with the type 3 Ames artillery hilt. This would be easy to put together. Hmm, I do have some parts....


Carl Eichorn, not Karl...The pattern was recognized by the A&H Historian as correct for that era.

Dale

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## T. Graham

Your are correct.

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## Sean Scott

He certainly is.

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## Dale Martin

Gentlemen:  I will try to get a better shot of the "CE" on some of my stuff...Might take a while..Have to take some apart to do it...

Dale

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## Glen C.

> I suppose the follow-on question is when was the photo was taken?  It appears the rifles in the picture are M1884 Springfields which had been phased out of the regular Army in the 1890s.  They were retained, however, by some militia/National Guard units well into the 20th century, so their presence in the Armory may not be too useful in dating the photo.


In doing some reading in that linked volume and reading some in other volumes available on Google, the gun room picture and other pictures of rooms in Fanueil Hall were photographed as part of publishing the book.  so, thta places it it time pretty well.

Another of my own questions was answered in a 1911 volume regarding week to week activity in 1910-1911 lists a roster of 637 members.  Also shown a photo of some officers, one showing a 1902 model, the others not clearly shown but all four seem to be fairly plain scabbards.



If I was to suppose, I would suppose what we see in the gun room racks may not even showe etched blades and that the etched blades of all models showing association were presented by the sections or others privately purchased..

Also noted in some other papers and books is discussion of uniforms as adopted in the 19th century.  The 1910 book quite often regarding surviving ACW officers. The book I linked has several pictures of swords, as that book is basically an inventory "sketch" of their museum at that time.

Cheers

Hotspur; _last time I was at Faneuil Hall, I was being dragged along to buy NY style pizza._

Oh yes, meant to mention that the trapdoor rifles were still used by the Massachusetts National Guard and carried during Boston's police riot. There is a picture of Coolidge reviewing a group of soldiers. 1919

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bXkKoRLKtv...00/boston3.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ts_militia.jpg

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## Dale Martin

Gentlemen: Sorry for making a fuss about this saber, I had no idea it would be so popular!   :Big Grin: 

Dale

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## Dennis M Loyer

Here is an old sword I was told is also an Ancient and Honorable Artillery Sword.  It is British and earlier than the examples already shown but what the heck does the term  "ancient and honorable artillery" refer to?  Is it a branch of the military?

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## Dale Martin

This is supposed to be the oldest continuously existing military unit in the US. Here is their site and you can also access their museum too.   http://www.ahac.us.com/

Dale

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## Glen C.

> Here is an old sword I was told is also an Ancient and Honorable Artillery Sword.  It is British and earlier than the examples already shown but what the heck does the term  "ancient and honorable artillery" refer to?  Is it a branch of the military?


Not to be too confused with the Honorable Artillery Company in England, uder other guises chartered in 1537 by Henry VIII, then known as the Fraternity or Guild of Artillery of Longbows, Crossbows and Handgonnes.  Looking further, first  mentioned as the Honourable Artillery Company in the late 17th century but postdating the Boston charter of the colony of Massachusetts.  queen Victoria made the name official in 1860.

I have seen both these 18th century spadroon and gothic hilted sabres of the 19th century linked to the British HAC.  The USversion shown with the counterguard (in the gun room photo and Ames catalog) are quite like the HAC swords of the Victorian period.

In reading some of the volumes found via Google, there was a grand affair in conjunction with the Prince of Wales visiting the states and a group of the Bostonians in turn visiting England (pre WWI).  It seems that although separate, the AHAC and HAC had the same roots but evolved apart, distanced by the Atlantic.  

Keep in mind also that militia laws and mustering remained the same in the colonies as it had been in England, with no real changes when Washington re-affirmed common law re militias during the American Revolution(the only change loyalty to the cause vs King George).  Those same basic precepts remained until there was more of a standing army after the ACW, with militias somewhat intact until the formation of our National Guard.

Cheers

Hotspur; _i may have one of the English gothic hilt types in files somewhere_

Here you go, not the one I was thinking of but of a similar vein.
http://www.antique-swords.eu/1870-Pa...ess-Sword.html

From Pooley, the type I was thinking of
http://pooleysword.com/en/Honourable...ny_(HAC)_Sword

Here is an 1804 title regarding the HAC in England
https://books.google.com/books?id=_9xqMj_R3a4C

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## George Wheeler

> Gentlemen: Sorry for making a fuss about this saber, I had no idea it would be so popular!  
> 
> Dale


A great subject to discuss Dale!  Lots of interest and a good fuss.   :Wink:

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