# Communities > Modern-era Swords and Collecting Community > Modern Production Katanas >  Looking for a Katana with no animal derived components

## Smood R.

I'm looking for a Katana with no animal derived components (like silk or bull horn etc..) but that is very tough and functional and preferably around $300 or less. From my research Ronin, Kris and Dynasty Forge all have animal components in their katanas. It seems my only choice is Cheness? At first I was very interested in Cheness but then when I heard about the poor fittings and inconsistency I wanted to get something else. I think probably if the no-animal components wasn't a factor I would go for Ronin. Can anyone think of any other katana I could possibly get that fits my requirements?

Thanks!

----------


## Timo Nieminen

Don't forget same/rayskin. So you'll be after a katana with plastic same, or a non-same+ito handle. Horn fittings, ito, sageo, same, leather bits - that's about the complete list of potential animal to watch for.

Hanwei Practical used to be plastic same and synthetic suede ito. From your Cheness comments, you might not want to go for the really cheap ones that tend to use plastic same. But perhaps somebody like Zhisword could do an all-synthetic tsuka with a decent blade (Zhisword's low-end katana range is all-synthetic, but I think all non-sharpened. You could ask what they can do. They also do this one, with brass tsuka, which might be OK. Otherwise, Hanwei practical. Or you could get a blade+habaki, and mount your own. There are traditional non-same+ito mounts.

----------


## Smood R.

Thanks Timo. Yes I will definitely avoid the rayskin too. You mentioned about cheap swords from Cheness, are you referring to Tenchi at all? Does the Tenchi use genuine rayskin? If The Tenchi is an option I would probably go for that sword over the Zhisword which doesn't have very good reviews on this forum.

As for the practical line from hanwei, its nice but I'm looking for a monosteel sword for the added strength.

Thanks!

----------


## c birch

[/QUOTE]
As for the practical line from hanwei, its nice but I'm looking for a monosteel sword for the added strength.

Thanks![/QUOTE]
 The hanwei practical line is monosteel, that being said, my best guess is that you will probably have to get a bare blade and have it mounted.  Historically brocade has been a substitute for samekawa, micarta can substitute horn for saya fittings(koiguchi, kurikata, tsuno, kojiri) copper and other soft metals have also traditionally been used for those as well.  
Good luck -Chris

----------


## Smood R.

> The hanwei practical line is monosteel, that being said, my best guess is that you will probably have to get a bare blade and have it mounted.  Historically brocade has been a substitute for samekawa, micarta can substitute horn for saya fittings(koiguchi, kurikata, tsuno, kojiri) copper and other soft metals have also traditionally been used for those as well.  
> Good luck -Chris


Sorry, I meant to say I'm looking for a through hardened sword (something like the hanwei Raptor series), not a sword with a differential hardening .

----------


## Timo Nieminen

The comment about cheap swords is that if Cheness doesn't meet your quality standards, $50 swords from, e.g., ebay, are likely to not meet your quality standards either. These tend to have poor quality blades as well as poor quality fittings.

As far as I know, all of the Cheness swords use real same/rayskin, so that rules them out. Even in the Hanwei practical line, the Plus and the Pro both use real same (AFAIK), and only the bottom-end Practical uses plastic same. A problem is that plastic same is bottom-end option, and usually comes with bottom-end blades.

So maybe non-same+ito mounted swords are best to look for (unless you want to try DIY - might be easy enough to do a good copper+epoxy, or polypropylene+cord, or fibreglass, or micarta, or whatever - non-traditional, but plenty strong enough if done right). For production swords, what is available? AFAIK, the Kris Cutlery katana don't use same (the tsuka is completely wrapped), but, alas, the scabbards have horn kurikata (the knob for the sageo). Other than that, I can only think of the Zhisword brass-mounted tachi, linked earlier, and the Hanwei Tactical Katana (non-traditional, but cheap and looks functional enough) in your price and quality range. 

There's also the Hanwei Zatoichi (sometimes classified as a sword-cane, so might be illegal in your locality), if you're willing to call it a katana.

----------


## Smood R.

> The comment about cheap swords is that if Cheness doesn't meet your quality standards, $50 swords from, e.g., ebay, are likely to not meet your quality standards either. These tend to have poor quality blades as well as poor quality fittings.
> 
> As far as I know, all of the Cheness swords use real same/rayskin, so that rules them out. Even in the Hanwei practical line, the Plus and the Pro both use real same (AFAIK), and only the bottom-end Practical uses plastic same. A problem is that plastic same is bottom-end option, and usually comes with bottom-end blades.
> 
> So maybe non-same+ito mounted swords are best to look for (unless you want to try DIY - might be easy enough to do a good copper+epoxy, or polypropylene+cord, or fibreglass, or micarta, or whatever - non-traditional, but plenty strong enough if done right). For production swords, what is available? AFAIK, the Kris Cutlery katana don't use same (the tsuka is completely wrapped), but, alas, the scabbards have horn kurikata (the knob for the sageo). Other than that, I can only think of the Zhisword brass-mounted tachi, linked earlier, and the Hanwei Tactical Katana (non-traditional, but cheap and looks functional enough) in your price and quality range. 
> 
> There's also the Hanwei Zatoichi (sometimes classified as a sword-cane, so might be illegal in your locality), if you're willing to call it a katana.


Thanks Timo. I would be willing to take a Cheness if they didn't use Rayskin but if they do then I will have to pass. I see what you mean now about cheaper swords. I'm probably going to avoid zhisword and nobody is very impressed with it here. I guess then my options are getting a blade and mounting it myself or going for something like you mentioned (tactical katana) from hanwei. The tactical looks pretty nice to be honest but I'll definitely read more about it.

Perhaps though someone will sell me a blade alone and I can learn to mount it myself. Probably will be hard though, I mean I would have to make my own custom saya and find properly fitting tsuka and tsuba.

EDIT: I will definitely pass on the tactical Katana as its only 21 inches. I'm not interested in something that short. Also not interested in sword canes. So looks like mounting is my only option.

----------


## Smood R.

http://www.chenessinc.com/9260bb.htm

It looks like Cheness is selling a bare blade here, this is excellent for me. 

You mentioned some materials for a DIY mount but how exactly would I do it. Is there any guide?

----------


## Timo Nieminen

Make sure you get a blade with habaki. Maybe even a blade with shirasaya - then you won't have to make a scabbard from scratch. Perhaps the shirasaya handle might be usable for making a working handle. Tsuba are easy to get. If the nakago-ana (tang-hole) is too small, enlarge by filing until it fits. If too large, copper inserts to reduce the size for a snug fit are traditional.

What you need for a handle are (1) a good fit to the tang, and (2) enough strength so that it stays in one piece.

The traditional solution to (1) is to carve individual wooden tsuka cores to fit individual tangs. How is your wood-working? If you don't think you can do this, then perhaps non-wood solutions are good.

For (2), composite construction is usual. A traditional same+ito tsuka has a wooden core, wrapped in rayskin, and wrapped with ito. The fuchi and kashira (the fittings at the two ends of the grip) also help hold it together. As an alternative to same+ito, you can wrap with cloth and/or cord and/or wire. Use fuchi and kashira, or equivalent reinforcements (simple metal rings will do).

You can combine solutions to (1) and (2), by building a synthetic grip directly on the tang. Get a length of copper pipe of appropriate thickness, flatten to elliptical, cover the bottom, fill with epoxy, and pop in the tang (with habaki, tsuba, seppa installed on blade). When set, drill and pin for extra security. You could cover the tang (and tsuba/seppa) so that you can remove the handle.

You can build a fibreglass or micarta grip straight onto the tang. (Micarta is an epox+cloth (or paper) composite, common in knifemaking; you can find knifemaking micarta tutorials on the web by search for "making micarta", "making linen micarta", "making canvas micarta"; usually they make flat slabs and then use those, but you could build it around the tang). You could drill a couple of holes in the tang, insert some pins, and then wrap the tang with epoxy-soaked cord.

If wood-working skills are absent, then you could get some suitable plastic slabs (polypropylene would be good), heat the tang (not too much - don't want to ruin the heat treatment of the blade; 200C is enough to melt polypropylene), and melt them to fit the tang securely. Then wrap and reinforce.

Kneadable epoxy as used, e.g., in car repair, might be good to use, too.

Personally, I find mid-range Zhisword katana to be quite OK - good blades, the tsuka I've seen fit well for cheap swords, real yokote, fittings OK if not aluminium-zinc alloy (I haven't seen/handled any of their low-end or top-end katana, so can't comment on them). I don't see any great advantage in a Cheness, unless you feel you must have 9260. You could ask Huawei Swords (on ebay) about a 9260 blade (+habaki). In my opinion, better blades than Cheness and cheaper. Unless Cheness blades have improved in the last few years. But a Cheness blade would be OK, too. If you are happier to get a Cheness blade, then you are buying peace-of-mind and getting a perfectly functional blade to go with it.

For tsuba, avoid aluminium-zinc alloy. That is, avoid anything described as just "alloy". Go for steel or brass (or copper). Steel will often be described as "iron" - that's OK, but avoid cast-iron (yes, it is possible to get cast-iron tsuba - super-brittle!).

----------


## Timo Nieminen

I've seen katana, Taiwanese manufacture, 1980s vintage, with solid plastic tsuka cores with rayskin textured surface. Perhaps it might be worth looking at really cheap wallhangers to see if anything like that can be found at a low enough price. Doesn't fit? File and/or epoxy might fix that.

----------


## Timo Nieminen

> EDIT: I will definitely pass on the tactical Katana as its only 21 inches. I'm not interested in something that short. Also not interested in sword canes. So looks like mounting is my only option.


That would be the Tactical Wakizashi; the Tactical Katana is about 27".

----------


## Smood R.

Thanks so much for the advice Timo! 

Hey but what about the DF Musha 1060?

http://www.reliks.com/merchant.ihtml?pid=5197

Is the same real ray skin? Trying to find somewhere that lists it.

----------


## Smood R.

> That would be the Tactical Wakizashi; the Tactical Katana is about 27".



You are right, this might be an option after all!

----------


## Timo Nieminen

> Hey but what about the DF Musha 1060?
> 
> http://www.reliks.com/merchant.ihtml?pid=5197
> 
> Is the same real ray skin? Trying to find somewhere that lists it.


According to Kult of Athena, real rayskin. In that price range, just what I'd expect. You'd also need to ask about the scabbard fittings - could be horn.

Here is another non-animal Zhisword, as an example of the kind of fittings that avoid rayskin (and silk).

----------


## c birch

I am not that familiar with the hanwei raptor series, I do know they have a synthetic suede ito which may be indicative that they use plastic ray skin and a substitute for horn on the saya, Im assuming you want something that has had nothing to do with harming animals for their production, and not something where you replace the animal parts with artificial ones?

----------


## M. Phan

May I ask your reason? This is because if your only objection is the killing of living things, buffalo (or bull horn) is acceptable.  This because harvest of buffalo horns are from buffalo that died from natural cause.  The horn are taken afterward.  No killing was involved.  Buffalo horns items (as well as drums from buffalo skin) are accepted for use in Buddhist temples in my old country for that reason.

----------


## David Lewis Smith

I would like to ask what you want to do with the sword?  If you are going to use it for practice and cutting you really do need a good quality swords, maybe not a 1000 custom job but a good sword.  If you are just going to display it there are many options open to you.  If you get a cheep chinese sword from ebay, I would not even dry handle it (ie swing through kata) 
We know what you want, now if you tell us why and for what purpose we can guide you better I think

Dave

----------


## David Lewis Smith

> http://www.chenessinc.com/9260bb.htm
> 
> It looks like Cheness is selling a bare blade here, this is excellent for me. 
> 
> You mentioned some materials for a DIY mount but how exactly would I do it. Is there any guide?


There are  hundreds of DYI threads here on SFI and people who would help you with the 'build' as you did it.  If you have some skill with hand tools and the tools I am sure you could do a beautiful job.  I have bought many bare blades form the classifieds here on SFI and there are F and K sets, Tsubas, Manuki and cotton wrap to be had as well.  Ebay has artificial bone and horn under 'knife parts' as a search as well.  You could do something very nice and completely your work.

----------


## Smood R.

> According to Kult of Athena, real rayskin. In that price range, just what I'd expect. You'd also need to ask about the scabbard fittings - could be horn.
> 
> Here is another non-animal Zhisword, as an example of the kind of fittings that avoid rayskin (and silk).


Thanks. I could get Hanwei Shirasaya as well couldn't I? That would probably be better than Zhisword.




> I am not that familiar with the hanwei raptor series, I do know they have a synthetic suede ito which may be indicative that they use plastic ray skin and a substitute for horn on the saya, Im assuming you want something that has had nothing to do with harming animals for their production, and not something where you replace the animal parts with artificial ones?


Replacing the animal parts with artificial things is fine for me.




> May I ask your reason? This is because if your only objection is the killing of living things, buffalo (or bull horn) is acceptable.  This because harvest of buffalo horns are from buffalo that died from natural cause.  The horn are taken afterward.  No killing was involved.  Buffalo horns items (as well as drums from buffalo skin) are accepted for use in Buddhist temples in my old country for that reason.


It is for religious reasons. I understand that you don't kill the buffalo but I would still prefer not having animal parts. 




> I would like to ask what you want to do with the sword?  If you are going to use it for practice and cutting you really do need a good quality swords, maybe not a 1000 custom job but a good sword.  If you are just going to display it there are many options open to you.  If you get a cheep chinese sword from ebay, I would not even dry handle it (ie swing through kata) 
> We know what you want, now if you tell us why and for what purpose we can guide you better I think
> 
> Dave


It if for cutting exercise and heavy use. Cheap swords will not work for me.




> There are  hundreds of DYI threads here on SFI and people who would help you with the 'build' as you did it.  If you have some skill with hand tools and the tools I am sure you could do a beautiful job.  I have bought many bare blades form the classifieds here on SFI and there are F and K sets, Tsubas, Manuki and cotton wrap to be had as well.  Ebay has artificial bone and horn under 'knife parts' as a search as well.  You could do something very nice and completely your work.


Ok thanks I will look for them.

----------


## David Lewis Smith

I will have too look when I get home in about 3 weeks but I have two Destiny Forge blades I picked up for 160 each.  I think they have cotton and synthetic tsukas.  (not an offer of sale, just me remembering after the fact what could be another option)

----------


## Smood R.

I see David. I guess DF used imitation rayskin before but now use real ones?

Also take a look at this everyone: http://kultofathena.com/product.asp?...a+with+Bo%2DHi 

Nice Cheness blade in Shirasaya. If I got this wouldn't I only have to do the tsuka wrap (with fake rayskin and cotton ito) and then put on a Tsuba and maybe paint the saya?

The only downside to this blade is that it is a bo-hi blade and I'd definitely rather have no bo-hi.

----------


## Smood R.

Here we go: http://www.chenessinc.com/shirasayakatana.htm

9260 Cheness shirasaya offered in no bo-hi. Thats perfect.  :Smilie:

----------


## David Lewis Smith

Actually i think these are just a pair of lower end swords and probably they still sell them.  Kris Cutlery has swords http://kriscutlery.hostasaurus.com/m...ry_Code=katana but all seem to have water Buffalo parts on the saya.  Sometimes they have just the sword for sale as well

Just a thought, if you do a Tsucka wrap why use even a fake rayskin.  You could use something else entirely that is still pleasing to the eye and serves its purpose and when peole ask what it is because it looks different you could tell them you chose a sword with no animal parts, did the finish work your self and chose XX material as an alternative.  Another thin that you could consider is that many Gunto blades had plastic parts, everything was molded.  You might be able to find a supply of replenishment parts that are new to use.  They do not look as tacky as one would assume and one has to remember than in WWII plastic was sort of exotic.   

some parts from our own Classifides 
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...t-s-and-Kodogu
Pricey but pretty, just posting here cause they are pretty 
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...e-Silver-Tsuba
just some more as reference 
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...its-and-Pieces
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...-Fushi-Kashira
a lot of those parts have sold but just examples of what you could find and do

I think the Cheness blade would work very well

Dave

----------


## Smood R.

Thanks Dave, this all looks great! Ya I think when it comes time to buy I'll get the Cheness Shirasaya and then start assembling it/mounting it. It will be way easier for me if I don't have to make a Saya or Tsuka (or anything) from scratch.

Also I don't mind using a material different from rayskin. I'll see what works best.

----------


## Jussi Ekholm

Shirasaya is not for use, you will have to make a new tsuka and saya if you intend to use the sword. I'd be especially worried about Cheness shirasaya after all their past tsuka troubles... If you are only goin to alter the shirasaya.

My recommendation would be NCO Gunto or ATrim Tactical Katana (can't check now if Gus still makes them)

Sorry for the short post, I'm on surfing by phone. Will write more when I got my connection back.

----------


## Timo Qvintus

Sorry that I drop into this thread so late..

You seriously don't want to start making a heavy cutter yourself based on a Cheness shirazaya, unless you have dedicated a year of intense studying into what makes for a good cutting sword, and possess the skills to apply that theory into practice.

----------


## Smood R.

Ok looks like I won't be doing my own then. My only option is the Tactical Katana from Hanwei but I don't want a Bo-hi sword so I think thats out to. Looks like there isn't any Katana to fit my needs. I will wait for the day one such Katana is made.

----------


## Jussi Ekholm

First of all, don't give up within one day mate...

Unfortunately I'm limited of phone use only today but I'll shoot in to help in when I get my connection back.

Now I read the whole thread and I saw that the older generation Practical Katana might have everything you want from a sword?

How close to a real katana are you planning to get? Since you've already included tactical katanas on the possibilities list. I know that I've must have seen about a dozen or so tactical katanas and many many katana-like blades.

Then again I'm not sure what kind of hard use and cutting you are talking about? You don't want a risky sword in your hands if your use is of that sort.

As a knob question could you tell the difference between real and fake same?

How about Hanwei Banshee? Sure that is not a katana but I wouldn't consider a tactical katana to be one either...

----------


## Smood R.

> First of all, don't give up within one day mate...
> 
> Unfortunately I'm limited of phone use only today but I'll shoot in to help in when I get my connection back.
> 
> Now I read the whole thread and I saw that the older generation Practical Katana might have everything you want from a sword?
> 
> How close to a real katana are you planning to get? Since you've already included tactical katanas on the possibilities list. I know that I've must have seen about a dozen or so tactical katanas and many many katana-like blades.
> 
> Then again I'm not sure what kind of hard use and cutting you are talking about? You don't want a risky sword in your hands if your use is of that sort.
> ...


Practical Katana might work but its a relatively poor sword overall from what I read in the class of battle ready swords. Also I would prefer a monotempered blade for increased strength.

I think a tactical katana is about as far as I'm willing to stray. The Hanwei banshee is too far from what a Katana is to make me consider it. I think a tactical katana with no bo-hi that is through tempered and from a good company would be fine for me. I may just have to suck it up and accept the Hanwei tactical katana, even though it has a bo-hi. I certainly rather get that then some relatively unknown tactical katana blade without a good company behind it.

I don't know if I can tell the difference because I don't have any genuine rayskin sword. 

Thanks

----------


## Timo Qvintus

How about contacting Cecil at Kris Cutlery and ask them to ship a katana without the horn kurikata? You don't actually *need* a kurikata for cutting purposes.. even if you do, have someone add one made of Delrin.

----------


## Jussi Ekholm

The reason I asked the knob question was that I had maybe 5 years ago a chinese made katana and couldn't tell 100% sure if it was real. I was around 80% but not totally sure. Looked so darn real and I guess it was real but of low quality.

I think Kris Cutlery might be good option for customisation job if you are up for one. Removing the kurikata is possible, yet it may be a lot more than it sounds. I customised one PPK maybe 5 or so years ago and just sawed the kurikata as it extended into saya, I might have demolished the saya if I would have tried to remove every last bit of horn.

Reading my old threads is making me do one project again...

Back to thread, here are some animal free options:

Ritter Steel has tactical competiton katana, but their reputation ain't that good.
True and Tried has those Little Tigress and Kat 2, paracord wrap.

----------


## Timo Nieminen

> Thanks. I could get Hanwei Shirasaya as well couldn't I? That would probably be better than Zhisword.


Probably. Likely to be differentially hardened. But note that most of what Zhisword call "shirasaya" are _not_ shirasaya; just swords mounted without tsuba. Proper shirasaya are just storage cases, not for "use". This particular Zhisword might be OK for use, but I would check the fit of handle to tang (and fix if necessary) before using. It would also benefit from something like a brocade wrap (perhaps synthetic upholstery fabric?).




> Replacing the animal parts with artificial things is fine for me.


That opens up lots of choices. Most cheap or mid-range katana will just have rayskin panels, rather than a full rayskin wrap, so the rayskin isn't structural. Remove, and replace if desired. Rewrap. Wrapping a handle properly with ito is not a trivial task. If you're prepared to do something like a simple cord wrap instead, then no problem. Then you just need a no-horn scabbard, and non-silk sageo. (Some scabbards/saya also have rayskin reinforcement, but that's easy to spot, and not so common.)

Asking Kris Cutlery about a katana with a no-horn saya looks like a good idea (as the other Timo suggested). KC blades are differentially hardened, but are known-to-be-tough.

----------


## Christopher Treichel

There are actually several types of traditional Japanese wraps that don't involve any animal parts such as a hemp twine braid wrap and some tachi were wrapped with brocade instead of same gawa.

----------


## Smood R.

> Probably. Likely to be differentially hardened. But note that most of what Zhisword call "shirasaya" are _not_ shirasaya; just swords mounted without tsuba. Proper shirasaya are just storage cases, not for "use". This particular Zhisword might be OK for use, but I would check the fit of handle to tang (and fix if necessary) before using. It would also benefit from something like a brocade wrap (perhaps synthetic upholstery fabric?).
> 
> 
> 
> That opens up lots of choices. Most cheap or mid-range katana will just have rayskin panels, rather than a full rayskin wrap, so the rayskin isn't structural. Remove, and replace if desired. Rewrap. Wrapping a handle properly with ito is not a trivial task. If you're prepared to do something like a simple cord wrap instead, then no problem. Then you just need a no-horn scabbard, and non-silk sageo. (Some scabbards/saya also have rayskin reinforcement, but that's easy to spot, and not so common.)
> 
> Asking Kris Cutlery about a katana with a no-horn saya looks like a good idea (as the other Timo suggested). KC blades are differentially hardened, but are known-to-be-tough.


Sorry I misunderstood the original question. I am not willing to purchase a sword with animal parts and then replace them. I only meant to say that fake or imitation animal parts are acceptable to me.

The KC 29-II is 5160 steel. Is it really differentially hardened? I guess so since they say the edge is HRC 60 so likely the spine is a different value. I am really not that interested in Differential hardened katanas. But thanks for the idea about them. At this point my options are the tactical katana or getting a bare blade and having someone mount it for me. I also noticed the tactical is a bit small, at 27.5 inch blade length and has bo-hi but these are 2 things I will have to sacrifice if I can't find a traditional Katana, through hardened without animal parts.




> There are actually several types of traditional Japanese wraps that don't involve any animal parts such as a hemp twine braid wrap and some tachi were wrapped with brocade instead of same gawa.


Can you point me to a seller of such blades?

----------


## Timo Nieminen

Other than the Zhisword (sort-of traditional wood+metal mounts) and Kris Cutlery (which have horn on the scabbard, but not the swords) already mentioned, I can't think of anything in your price range and of adequate quality.

But here are some examples of various non-animal fittings:

A rattan-wrapped tsuka and saya. Not a production sword, but you could consider making this kind of mount (or getting a blade mounted for you like this).

Hanwei Shuihi Tachi. Above your price range, differentially hardened, and bo-hi, but it's a nice well-made sword, in a traditional style.

Traditional tachi. Except for silk, this one would be OK. If anybody sells swords mounted like this these days, I'd expect it to be _very_ expensive.

There are also more modern styles, like the NCO shin-gunto, with cast metal tsuka with ito pattern. I don't know if you can get one with a decent blade. Perhaps you could get a really cheap one for the fittings?

One sees swords like this one, a "full tang katana", with plain wooden grip slabs riveted on. From what I've seen, the quality falls far short of what you are after. But you could mount a bare blade in something like this way. You won't get exactly this, since a normal katana tang isn't as wide as the tsuka, and isn't a flat slab, either.

----------


## Christopher Treichel

> Can you point me to a seller of such blades?


I don't know of anyone making a quality comercial katana or tachi that does not utilize animal products... But you could easily get one custom made and probably for not much more.  See if you can get a blade with at least the habaki and saya and then have someone make it in a traditional style that does not use samegawa, leather, horn or silk. All of the parts that are usually horn on the saya can also be made with delrin or steel.  

try this link... for some ideas of tsukas not made with samegawa http://www007.upp.so-net.ne.jp/m-kenji/tsukamaki.html

----------


## Jussi Ekholm

I would still say that NCO-gunto might be easiest option. As you don't need matching numbers you might find one for fairly good price. Just be sure not to buy chinese fake, some of them can be quite convincing. Although militaria collectors have their eyes on those and they can be sometimes costly.

I have to say that 300$ budget might not be enough to get you totally "animal free" sword.

Dynasty Forges itomaki-no-tachi has brocade in saya and same on tsuka. And they might be open for replacing the same for brocade and replacing silk ito but that sword is in way different pricerange. Just to show you the brocade/tachi route.

Searched and searched and I did find one that would fit that 300$ budget and has no animal materials used. I have never seen a Zhisword product but some in here have and they can comment more on thr quality. http://www.zhisword.com/index.php?ma...a81021a2f59f87

----------


## Timo Qvintus

You could contact Zhang (owner of ZhiSwords) and ask about a custom sword, with artificial same, and either wooden or artificial "horn" koiguchi and kurigata. A through-hardened blade should help keep your custom budget under $300.

----------


## Timo Nieminen

There is apparently a functional Highlander katana available. This one is differentially hardened. Also horn is used in the scabbard. The same seller has variations on the theme, and perhaps some of the others might be OK. Anyway, another example of potentially non-animal katana mountings. This kind of thing is at least partly based on traditional carved-bone mounts (googlinf for "carved bone katana" should find examples). These were often made for tourist sale in the late 1800s (and later), and often have rather low quality blades. Sometimes good blades.

----------


## Smood R.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone! I am mainly against Zhiswords and other swords that Timo mentioned because they are not well known and well proven to be great swords. Paul Southern is one of the guys who said Zhiswords isn't great but others have spoke well of them but for their upper end series thats around $500.

----------


## Timo Qvintus

Funny that you should mention how some brands are "not well known and well proven to be great swords" as I consider Cheness to have a horrible reputation (plus my personal opinion having closely inspected one), while Kris Cutlery has an almost flawless track-record.

What makes a great sword? Blade's ability to take a bend? Ability to survive a horribly bad cut by an uneducated backyard-samurai? Or ability to cut the target on a good or even decent cut? What about other parts of the sword, not just the blade itself?

----------


## Christopher Treichel

Martial Arts Sword (Korean) makes a pretty good blade.  My L-6 from them is the one I will probably keep using until I can afford a Howard Clark or a traditionally made one.  That said they also do custom work or you can get it in shira saya.

----------


## Timo Qvintus

> Martial Arts Sword (Korean) makes a pretty good blade.  My L-6 from them is the one I will probably keep using until I can afford a Howard Clark or a traditionally made one.  That said they also do custom work or you can get it in shira saya.


I assume you missed the $300 price-limit?

----------


## Christopher Treichel

Well, your not going to get much of a new sword for $300. On the other hand you might do ok by getting a used blade here on SFI or other place classifieds... and back to my suggestion of going custom from a blade up... Then again having a tsuka made, tsuka maki etc will also run you a couple of bills.

----------


## Smood R.

> Funny that you should mention how some brands are "not well known and well proven to be great swords" as I consider Cheness to have a horrible reputation (plus my personal opinion having closely inspected one), while Kris Cutlery has an almost flawless track-record.
> 
> What makes a great sword? Blade's ability to take a bend? Ability to survive a horribly bad cut by an uneducated backyard-samurai? Or ability to cut the target on a good or even decent cut? What about other parts of the sword, not just the blade itself?


I respect your views but Cheness has a far better and more substantial reputation that 'zhiswords'. Secondly I agree that Cheness is criticized for poor fittings but their blades are highly praised as being some of the strongest out there that are also effective cutters.

Anyhow my main thought of the CAS Tactical Katana at this point is even if I accept the bo-hi. I have read the blade is quite thin. No doubt this was an intentional decision to make the blade light to carry and wield and thus more tactical, but I worry about its strength and ultimately its cutting power. Does anyone have any experience with this sword? I find reviews are scarce.

----------


## Timo Qvintus

Sorry but if you're already decided why ask our opinion in the first place? You want a custom sword for the price of a low-end mass-production sword; you are going to have to cut some corners (no pun intended).

When you talk about cutting, what type of cutting are you planning to perform? Do you have JSA training, from what school, and does your ryu place any demands on the shinken you're going to use? Even the best sword will cut only as well as the swordsman weilding it.

----------


## Jussi Ekholm

Sorry still on phone so can't give much information. (just ignore the thumb down hard to write on a phone, tend to press things by mistake)

The kasane or thickness of Tac Kat seems to be in 4,5-6mm range. I don't know which because some clearly stated that they were "eyeing" with the ruler. And you americans use those darn inches that make no sense... Given all these different variations and Tac Waki being said to be 6mm thick I don't understand why they would have made the katana that much slimmer than the wakizashi.

Now the Cheness regular series seem to be around 7,5mm. I don't count SGC series here.

In my opinion 5,5-6mm kasane is still perfectly acceptable. And I believe that Hanwei Tactical Katana falls into that range. Can't say for sure but I don't think that Hanwei would go for under 5mm kasane at least on purpose. I might be wrong here though...

There is a thing called marketing hype and once that gets going it's impossible to stop. I am not saying that Cheness blades aren't tough, they seem to be. I just tend to think they are "overhyped" as I believe that many other production swords are at the same level and above bladewise.

Like Timo said earlier I too tend to remember the tsuka breakings during cutting, hammered on tsukas and other stuff on Cheness swords. Sure the things might have improved during the years. But I consider tsuka failure to be way more serious problem than blade taking over 100 degrees of bending before breaking.

Timo also asked the important question, what are you planning to cut?

----------


## Timo Nieminen

> There is a thing called marketing hype and once that gets going it's impossible to stop. I am not saying that Cheness blades aren't tough, they seem to be. I just tend to think they are "overhyped" as I believe that many other production swords are at the same level and above bladewise.
> 
> Like Timo said earlier I too tend to remember the tsuka breakings during cutting, hammered on tsukas and other stuff on Cheness swords. Sure the things might have improved during the years. But I consider tsuka failure to be way more serious problem than blade taking over 100 degrees of bending before breaking.


IMO, Cheness don't have a good reputation, or a horrible reputation. They have a polarised reputation. Perhaps better to say that, rather than a reputation, Cheness has partisans. Cold Steel comes to mind as a similar maker, with a lot of very supportive partisans, and then a reputation for making sharpened crowbars when it comes to swords. (I don't think that they're that bad; they seem to have improved their katana - making them lighter and better balanced - but the stats for the old models persist on websites. The only Cold Steel Japanese-line sword I've handled is their nagamaki, which tells me littkle about their katana. It's nice.)

But for "cutting power", as long as you're cutting the kind of things swords are designed to cut, then the most important thing that contributes to "cutting power" is the human. Any well-made sword will be tough enough, unless the human fails. But the blade does make a difference too. Having cut with both Cheness and Zhisword swords, I find the two Japanese-style Zhisword swords I've cut with cut better than the Cheness swords I've cut with. I doubt they're as tough as the Cheness blades, but I've not broken either. Why? They're better balanced, which will help. I've not measured them, but perhaps they are thinner bladed at the business end, which would help. Mostly I cut with a Huawei katana, which I'd rate as intermediate between the Cheness and Zhisword blades for "cutting power".

If one thinks of 9260 as a magic steel, and wants a bare blade, I'd go for a Huawei 9260 blade. They might even do an animal free mounting. This is a really cheap option.

For the sub-$300 blade with the best well-proven reputation, the clear winner must be Kris Cutlery. Either a katana or a bare blade (but they don't seem to have bare blades at the moment).

If one prefers peace of mind through the Cheness brand name, that would work. Buying a bare blades means one doesn't even need to worry about quality of koshirae.

----------


## Jussi Ekholm

Good thing that you brought the cutting aspects on Timo N. As they are OP's main intrest aside from sword being animal free.

I can say that my info on production swords/ on them cutting-wise is somewhat outdated. Since it's been about 3-4 years since I last cut with a sword (darn it's been long)...

Human factor is indeed a thing to consider when cutting. A sword that suits some may not suit another. On one cutting seminar I tend to cut better with CS Warrior than with Citadel, although I have to say that Citadel was better sword. The heavier and bigger blade just suited me better, almost everyone else preferred the Citadel.

To get this slightly back on the rail, it would be nice to hear little more about cutting ability of Zhisword. As they seem to be one good option for "animal free" route.

Ps. Cheness, CS, and every maker have their own fanbase, and I fall under LL-camp.

----------


## Timo Nieminen

I've cut very little with Zhisword stuff, but they seem to do well. I don't know the model of the Zhisword katana, but it's differentially hardened, T10, real yokote, non-gaudy black. Perhaps this one or this one, if it's one of their current line. I'll have to check, perhaps this coming weekend.

I was cutting free-standing rolled-up soaked paper, which I find to be a tough target to cut. With the above-mentioned Zhisword, I could cut these better than with any of the other katana I tried. Reasonable balance and weight, reasonable cutting geometry, and sharp blade. I mostly cut free-standing targets, so I find that lighter swords perform better, cetera paribus, since speed is important so as to cut the target before the target moves too much.

This big Zhisword sword (90cm nagasa) cuts nicely, but I've cut even less with it.

Overall, I'm happy with how Zhisword Japanese-style swords cut. Either the best of any katana or similar that I have, or close enough to it so that it's really hard to tell the difference. I haven't gotten to see any beginners cutting with any Zhisword Japanese swords, so can't comment on that. The Cheness swords available are not very kind to beginners - worse balance, perhaps not as sharp. But these are big and small (o-katana and ko-katana), not regular sized, so perhaps not a fair comparison. But mainly I (and others with me) will cut with a lightish Huawei katana or non-Japanese-tylde blades (usually Chinese, European, Indonesian/Filipino). My best cutting sword is a Valiantco Parang Nabur, about the length and weight of a Cheness ko-katana. At least, according to the Cheness website specs; the Cheness feels heavier than that in hand, so perhaps I should weigh it and check. Maybe Cheness swords are lighter these days?

----------


## Smood R.

> Sorry but if you're already decided why ask our opinion in the first place? You want a custom sword for the price of a low-end mass-production sword; you are going to have to cut some corners (no pun intended).
> 
> When you talk about cutting, what type of cutting are you planning to perform? Do you have JSA training, from what school, and does your ryu place any demands on the shinken you're going to use? Even the best sword will cut only as well as the swordsman weilding it.


I started to make up my opinion AFTER I asked my initial question as we discussed the issue in this thread. I am not 100% final on it and am still open to suggestions. I will look more into Zhiswords but it seems like most of their intermediate to high end blades do use genuine rayskin and even silk ito.

As for cutting I plan on Thick bamboo and basic things like light bottles etc. I do not have formal training but I have studied techniques from various books (including Flashing steel: Mastering Eishin-ryu swordsmanship). I'm looking for a through hardened blade due to my lack of skill and because the extreme durability really appeals to me.




> IMO, Cheness don't have a good reputation, or a horrible reputation. They have a polarised reputation. Perhaps better to say that, rather than a reputation, Cheness has partisans. Cold Steel comes to mind as a similar maker, with a lot of very supportive partisans, and then a reputation for making sharpened crowbars when it comes to swords. (I don't think that they're that bad; they seem to have improved their katana - making them lighter and better balanced - but the stats for the old models persist on websites. The only Cold Steel Japanese-line sword I've handled is their nagamaki, which tells me littkle about their katana. It's nice.)
> 
> But for "cutting power", as long as you're cutting the kind of things swords are designed to cut, then the most important thing that contributes to "cutting power" is the human. Any well-made sword will be tough enough, unless the human fails. But the blade does make a difference too. Having cut with both Cheness and Zhisword swords, I find the two Japanese-style Zhisword swords I've cut with cut better than the Cheness swords I've cut with. I doubt they're as tough as the Cheness blades, but I've not broken either. Why? They're better balanced, which will help. I've not measured them, but perhaps they are thinner bladed at the business end, which would help. Mostly I cut with a Huawei katana, which I'd rate as intermediate between the Cheness and Zhisword blades for "cutting power".
> 
> If one thinks of 9260 as a magic steel, and wants a bare blade, I'd go for a Huawei 9260 blade. They might even do an animal free mounting. This is a really cheap option.
> 
> For the sub-$300 blade with the best well-proven reputation, the clear winner must be Kris Cutlery. Either a katana or a bare blade (but they don't seem to have bare blades at the moment).
> 
> If one prefers peace of mind through the Cheness brand name, that would work. Buying a bare blades means one doesn't even need to worry about quality of koshirae.


I still have to contact Kris cutlery about selling me a custom sword or a sword with animal-free saya or sword with no saya. But they are not through hardened so I'm not sure about them though.

----------


## David Lewis Smith

just throwing something out there:
A type of tempering that is more than a few centuries old, ie, deferentially tempered with hamon is probably not going to fail you in any way.  That is to say not going to fail you unless you attempt to cut something a sword would not normally cut.  Tami mats, pool noodles, water bottles are all good targets.  I would actually recommend you start with pool noodles, if you hit them wrong they are very forgiving on your blade and just bend over, if you hit them right they cut nicely.  water bottles are 'ok' but lack really good feed back.  Tami mats are good as well but require a lot of prep time and can be fairly expensive, difficult to find locally.

this is an excellent thread on preparing tatami mats.
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...ht=preparation

A one gallon milk jug full of water or a case of small water bottles as i have seen some times really is not that good a test of a persons abilities in my opinion.   Another thing about Tatami mats, they are not forgiving, if you hit wrong they can damage your blade, ie roll or chip the edge

----------


## Jeremy Hagop

Tatami omote are a lot more forgiving than bamboo. The OP states he wishes to cut thick bamboo with his blade. The worst that can happen to a blade whilst performing a bad cut on tatami omote is that the blade takes a set. The edge can chip or roll if it encounters grit, staples inside the mats. However, this problem doesn't occur with new tatami omote. Cutting bamboo is another story. I personally have chipped, bent and further damaged blades cutting bamboo. Even well made blades can get damaged whilst cutting bamboo. I have a friend who had his gunto broken whilst cutting bamboo. The blade literally snapped in two on a bad cut. Please don't attempt any hard cutting without attaining proper instruction from a qualified instructor. 

Kind regards,

Jeremy Hagop

----------


## Timo Qvintus

> Please don't attempt any hard cutting without attaining proper instruction from a qualified instructor.


My thoughts exactly. You don't learn proper cutting form from books, and going straight for the hardest possible target is just asking for trouble. No katana on earth will survive that. If you truly want to cut bamboo without training, I recommend you buy a machete.

----------


## David Lewis Smith

Well Timo, I regularly cut rifles in half to demonstrate the ferocity of the Katana of WW2 

On a serous note, something to consider,  you do in fact get what you pay for.  I also have a pre WW2 blade that is very nice and rugged, and one of my friends favorite blades to cut with is a WW2 gunto.  I sort of object to cutting with antiques but it is his property.  

Some one use to have a tag line of 'never cut with a blade that costs less then it does to feed a family of six at Kentucky Fried Chicken'

----------


## Smood R.

Ok I will refrain from cutting bamboo for now. I contacted Kris Cutlery and they don't have any katana without buffalo horn. I didn't ask for a Sword without Saya though. Not sure I want to do that.

Oh and I did recently buy a 22 inch Ontario 'heavy duty' machete. Haven't tried it yet though.  :Cool:

----------


## David Lewis Smith

Smood:  do you have skill at wood working?  I am fairly sure you could do alot of this work your self.  It would also be a part of your journey as it were, A sword with out saya is a minor problem for transportation, but making the saya could be a learning process as well.  If the first Saya turns out poorly but does the job it will surface until the second or third is completed 

Icepick: Learn, teach, grow.  Life is a cycle in many ways,

----------


## Jussi Ekholm

It's a good idea to avoid that bamboo with katana leave that for that big machete.

Just stumbled across Sinosword, and they have totally animal free tachi. http://www.sinosword.com/ProductShow...itional-polish Their prices are very reasonable, I would almost say surprisingly low when compared to quality and the level of customization. Haven't seen anything made by them in person but some forumites here have blades made by them so you could search a bit.

Sinosword just like Zhisword has very good customization options if you contact the forge. They'll offer to do pretty much anything what you like.

----------


## Smood R.

> Smood:  do you have skill at wood working?  I am fairly sure you could do alot of this work your self.  It would also be a part of your journey as it were, A sword with out saya is a minor problem for transportation, but making the saya could be a learning process as well.  If the first Saya turns out poorly but does the job it will surface until the second or third is completed 
> 
> Icepick: Learn, teach, grow.  Life is a cycle in many ways,


Ya I suppose making a Saya wouldn't be too hard. Something I might consider. But making everything probably not because of lack of time to learn how to do things properly (as Timo mentioned).




> It's a good idea to avoid that bamboo with katana leave that for that big machete.
> 
> Just stumbled across Sinosword, and they have totally animal free tachi. http://www.sinosword.com/ProductShow...itional-polish Their prices are very reasonable, I would almost say surprisingly low when compared to quality and the level of customization. Haven't seen anything made by them in person but some forumites here have blades made by them so you could search a bit.
> 
> Sinosword just like Zhisword has very good customization options if you contact the forge. They'll offer to do pretty much anything what you like.


I will look into them. I hope to eventually cut bamboo and many people with no training (Paul Southern) to near masters (James Williams) do cut bamboo with a variety of blades. I don't see why I should totally avoid ever cutting bamboo. I want a sword strong enough to stand up to harder targets like bamboo and I do believe such swords exist.

----------


## Smood R.

> It's a good idea to avoid that bamboo with katana leave that for that big machete.
> 
> Just stumbled across Sinosword, and they have totally animal free tachi. http://www.sinosword.com/ProductShow...itional-polish Their prices are very reasonable, I would almost say surprisingly low when compared to quality and the level of customization. Haven't seen anything made by them in person but some forumites here have blades made by them so you could search a bit.
> 
> Sinosword just like Zhisword has very good customization options if you contact the forge. They'll offer to do pretty much anything what you like.



That Tachi is made with Tamahagne and has no price. My guess is that its not less than $800 and probably a lot more and so not really in my price range.

----------


## Timo Qvintus

> I hope to eventually cut bamboo and many people with no training (Paul Southern) to near masters (James Williams) do cut bamboo with a variety of blades. I don't see why I should totally avoid ever cutting bamboo. I want a sword strong enough to stand up to harder targets like bamboo and I do believe such swords exist.


Not to put you off completely, but please make note that even Paul Southern has been cutting targets of progressive hardness over the year; and keep in mind that you (or anyone else without training) will never, EVER, cut targets like James Williams et.al. do without years of proper training. At the end of the day, the blade you're using is insignificant; swordsmanship is what makes or breaks the cut. There simply is no way around this. Take it from someone who has learned this the hard way.. don't make the mistakes I did.

----------


## Smood R.

> Not to put you off completely, but please make note that even Paul Southern has been cutting targets of progressive hardness over the year; and keep in mind that you (or anyone else without training) will never, EVER, cut targets like James Williams et.al. do without years of proper training. At the end of the day, the blade you're using is insignificant; swordsmanship is what makes or breaks the cut. There simply is no way around this. Take it from someone who has learned this the hard way.. don't make the mistakes I did.


How long do you think Paul has been cutting before he started cutting bamboo?

Also although skill is obviously the most important variable in cutting, to say the blade type you use isn't significant is hyperbole.

----------


## Timo Qvintus

> How long do you think Paul has been cutting before he started cutting bamboo?


Ask Paul..?

----------


## Smood R.

> Ask Paul..?


For the sake of argument if he said he was cutting for a few weeks before trying bamboo (which I think is quite reasonable) it demonstrates that its a viable target with no formal training (just like Paul). This is part of the reason I want a through-hardened blade. I know that a mistake with a traditionally hardened sword on harder targets would end up in a lot of damage and might even be dangerous. The risks are substantially reduced with strong mono-tempered blades.

The ultimate point is Bamboo is a viable target based on the many people who have successfully cut it (with no formal training) and obviously without being at the level of a James Williams.

----------


## Smood R.

I wonder how much training this guy has had: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxKjpEJPExk

----------


## Jussi Ekholm

Regarding Sinosword, I missed that whole "tamahagane" part but the good thing about them is that they take customizations for no additional cost since their blades are made after ordering. You could throw in a 1095 blade for that koshirae and ask for the quote. Their prices are very reasonable.

Not sure about how their blade would perform in cutting. But they would probably be in mid-class. Not among the worst but certainly not among the best ones out there.

Now I've never cut bamboo since it's rare and I believe expensive too in Finland so take these next thoughts with ... well just as opinions.

Do you need formal training to cut bamboo? Answer is no but you need to understand how to cut with a sword. Then there are bamboos that are easy to cut and bamboos that are hard to cut. Sure many chinese ebay sellers had videos where they smashed some bamboos but to my knowledge they were mostly of these small diameter easier to cut bamboos.

I am also very protective for my swords and wouldn't want to do anything that would harm them. I heard stories of people having hardwood dovels (accidentally or some rare occasions on purpose) inside tatami omote and do sometimes successful cuts. Accidentally meaning cutting stands peg and rare occasion when skilled swordsman testing his/hers skill-level. While handling dovels when doing other things I've always thought it's well beyond my skill level. Therefore I've made the wise decision to avoid trying to cut it as I understand it's more than likely above my skill-level.

I disagree little with Timo Q. here as I think the blade has huge difference when it comes to cutting. Sure in the end swordsmanship is one big factor but so is the sword and how it fits you. And one factor is how much you've cut. Even some good swordsman might struggle in their first cuts.

Now I'm only a real beginner when it comes to cutting and I have about 4 years of cutting break now. But I've cut tatami omote with 6 different swords at 3 cutting seminars. And I can throw my thoughts on how important the sword is for a beginner like me. First time it was CS Warrior and Citadel katana, I did only successful cuts with CS Warrior and I struggled with the better Citadel. 2nd time it was my own PPK, CS Warrior and different Citadel. Successful cuts with PPK (since I had cut so much backyard cutting with it) and CS Warrior but again struggled with Citadel. 3rd time I had my own LL 3 shaku beast with me, it was with their competition cutter geometry and I could basically just "drop" it on half mats and only "push a bit" on full mats. It's crazy how little power you need when cutting with this because the sword is so big and desinged to cut tatami.

Overall conclusion Citadel katanas were of the best quality but required most skill from user. Experienced people did great cuts with them as they were very agile. Cold Steel worked well for everyone regardless of skill. My Last Legend cut like a beast because of it's size and geometry. And I cut well with PPK since I had most experience with handling it so I knew how to cut with it.

----------


## c birch

I am no expert at cutting, I am just a collecter, and my martial arts experience does not go beyond 7 years of tang soo do, but you should probably take Timos advice and train before cutting hard targets, my only cutting experience was with 3 inch tatami in my friends back yard under his supervision( who had been studying iaido and aikido for roughly 4 years at the time) I made about 12 cuts and botched about half of those, luckily without any damage to my friends sword, my point being you could potentially spend all this effort finding what you are lookin for, and then destroy it within mere moments on your first atempt, modern steels will only take you so far with toughness, experience and developed skill will take you alot farther, I am reminded of a movie from the 80's called sword of the ninja( or the challenge) where Toshiro Mifune is teaching Scott Glen how to cut, and lets him have at it first try on bamboo, the end result being alot of laughs from the 3 instructors and and L shaped sword like object.
Sorry for th giant run on sentence- Chris

----------


## George Wright

I have been cutting for over a year now. Only bottles. 2 months ago i tried Bamboo. Now im onto Mats. I have found where i 'thought' i was pretty good i am infact fairly bad. Sure i can cut through hard targets, but its not the way i want. I am moving 3,500km across the country (for work) and conveniently to the only Dojo for Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu in Australia. I plan to make this a life long commitment. I have learnt all the books and DVD's in the world don't stand up for one lesson from a skilled master of his or her art.

----------


## Smood R.

> I am no expert at cutting, I am just a collecter, and my martial arts experience does not go beyond 7 years of tang soo do, but you should probably take Timos advice and train before cutting hard targets, my only cutting experience was with 3 inch tatami in my friends back yard under his supervision( who had been studying iaido and aikido for roughly 4 years at the time) I made about 12 cuts and botched about half of those, luckily without any damage to my friends sword, my point being you could potentially spend all this effort finding what you are lookin for, and then destroy it within mere moments on your first atempt, modern steels will only take you so far with toughness, experience and developed skill will take you alot farther, I am reminded of a movie from the 80's called sword of the ninja( or the challenge) where Toshiro Mifune is teaching Scott Glen how to cut, and lets him have at it first try on bamboo, the end result being alot of laughs from the 3 instructors and and L shaped sword like object.
> Sorry for th giant run on sentence- Chris


Look up Paul Southern (in case you don't already know him). He has no formal training, but has just been cutting himself for sometime as Timo mentioned.

Am I against training? No. I would like to do Iaido training, but I disagree with the notion that you need formal training to cut medium level targets like Bamboo. Do you need cutting experience, of course. I wouldn't try to cut bamboo on the first day or even week I started cutting.

----------


## Smood R.

> I have been cutting for over a year now. Only bottles. 2 months ago i tried Bamboo. Now im onto Mats. I have found where i 'thought' i was pretty good i am infact fairly bad. Sure i can cut through hard targets, but its not the way i want. I am moving 3,500km across the country (for work) and conveniently to the only Dojo for Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu in Australia. I plan to make this a life long commitment. I have learnt all the books and DVD's in the world don't stand up for one lesson from a skilled master of his or her art.


Although this is a nice sentiment it is again the height of hyperbole. If I read all the books and watched all the DVDs about samurai swordsmanship in the world, I think I would gain quite a bit more than 1 lesson from a master. Do books/dvds replace formal training? No. But are they useless/meaningless? No. Lets not all get out of hand here with our hyperbole.

----------


## Jussi Ekholm

I would say that bamboo is hard target (since I've always heard people say that). Not levelwise necessarily but materialwise. Hard targets can be very unforgiving to sword as has been noted to you earlier.

The reason why I advised you not to cut bamboo was just to save yourself from grief. As you have a budget of 300$ that you are going to invest in a sword, I cannot think much worse case than damaging that sword by attempting too difficult cut too early.

I tend to think there are two groups of cutters, backyard cutters and formal cutters. I just classified these like this since I needed a classification to explain my point.

Formal cutters tend to cut with style of a blade they practice with. Backyard cutters can cut with any blade they have on hand. Formal cutters usually practice tameshigiri as a part of their training and improving their skill. Backyard cutters cut for the fun of cutting. Formal cutters tend to cut traditional materials, while backyard cutters tend to cut anything they get their hands on. Now things ain't black & white fun, skill development all come together in the end.

Formal cutters must have formal training background while backyard cutting requires none. That does not say that backyard cutter can't be skilled in cutting. In my opinion people learn to cut only by cutting. Sure formal kata training teaches you how to handle the sword but as far as cutting goes you have to cut in order to understand it. Now I speak only by my experiences and feelings but I dare to say I cut better in some seminars than some iaidoka of much higher skill-level. Why? Because I had several years of backyard cutting under my belt and those were the first times they actually cut mats with a sword. It's one thing to understand how to cut and actually cut. While iaido/other sword art teaches the theory of how to cut, it's only cutting that will improve your cutting in my mind.

There are probably hundreds of good cutters even among backyard cutters who have never even took a lesson in a swordart. What they all have incommon is they all know how to cut. Now I ain't talking about form, sure experienced sensei or another teacher of swordart will find countless points that need improving from their style, I'm talking about cutting those targets. Cause in the end for a cutter who does not practice any swordart the successful cut is more important than a cut with perfect technique.

By all means I encourage you to cut, and then cut some more. Just be sure to start with targets that don't cause damage to your sword (milk cartons, plastic bottles, pool noodles etc.).

Now I myself would cut more too but as good cutting materials (mats) are expensive here in Finland, and my current priority is saving my money to antiques. I might have to try some rope cutting and something else in the summer though, all this talking about cutting is making me hungry for some cuts...

----------


## Smood R.

> I would say that bamboo is hard target (since I've always heard people say that). Not levelwise necessarily but materialwise. Hard targets can be very unforgiving to sword as has been noted to you earlier.
> 
> The reason why I advised you not to cut bamboo was just to save yourself from grief. As you have a budget of 300$ that you are going to invest in a sword, I cannot think much worse case than damaging that sword by attempting too difficult cut too early.
> 
> I tend to think there are two groups of cutters, backyard cutters and formal cutters. I just classified these like this since I needed a classification to explain my point.
> 
> Formal cutters tend to cut with style of a blade they practice with. Backyard cutters can cut with any blade they have on hand. Formal cutters usually practice tameshigiri as a part of their training and improving their skill. Backyard cutters cut for the fun of cutting. Formal cutters tend to cut traditional materials, while backyard cutters tend to cut anything they get their hands on. Now things ain't black & white fun, skill development all come together in the end.
> 
> Formal cutters must have formal training background while backyard cutting requires none. That does not say that backyard cutter can't be skilled in cutting. In my opinion people learn to cut only by cutting. Sure formal kata training teaches you how to handle the sword but as far as cutting goes you have to cut in order to understand it. Now I speak only by my experiences and feelings but I dare to say I cut better in some seminars than some iaidoka of much higher skill-level. Why? Because I had several years of backyard cutting under my belt and those were the first times they actually cut mats with a sword. It's one thing to understand how to cut and actually cut. While iaido/other sword art teaches the theory of how to cut, it's only cutting that will improve your cutting in my mind.
> ...


A very well written and thought out post. Thank you Jussi.

----------


## c birch

You don't need formal training to cut anything, if a person whos never handled a gun before and goes on a forum asking what is the best rifle for hunting deer, and people suggest he take a hunter safety course before he even buys a hunting lisence
is that hyperbole?  The reason obtaining instruction is far superior to books is when you do something wrong, like blow a cut, there is someone there who can tell you why.  If you consider bamboo a medium target, then what is your ultimate goal, to cut pressure treated 4x4s.  I' ve owned 3 production katanas, two of which cost more than what your stated budget is and they would have probably snapped like twigs against bamboo.

----------


## Smood R.

> You don't need formal training to cut anything, if a person whos never handled a gun before and goes on a forum asking what is the best rifle for hunting deer, and people suggest he take a hunter safety course before he even buys a hunting lisence
> is that hyperbole?  The reason obtaining instruction is far superior to books is when you do something wrong, like blow a cut, there is someone there who can tell you why.  If you consider bamboo a medium target, then what is your ultimate goal, to cut pressure treated 4x4s.  I' ve owned 3 production katanas, two of which cost more than what your stated budget is and they would have probably snapped like twigs against bamboo.


First of all, I never said that books were superior to instruction. Please re-read my posts if you think I said otherwise. Refer to Jussi's post as well for my thoughts on the entire matter. Secondly, can you please tell me the names of the 2 katanas that would snap like twigs if you tried to cut bamboo with them? (Assuming of course they are production Katanas).

Since I have watched so many cutting videos including Paul Southern's videos, I felt that tree branches would be a 'hard target' and certainly armor plating as they attempted to cut in videos comparing a longsword to a katana.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDkoj932YFo

Also here is a Musashi 1045 steel katana taking on Bamboo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6GK1pue7J8

Your swords can't do what this 80 dollar sword can do?

Finally here is some more cutting by  Paul Southern with the Ronin series:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfnISXoW1LE

----------


## c birch

Good lord, I should clarify my statement, those swords would "snap like twigs"in my own inexperienced hands against bamboo.  As far as brand they are hanwei katanas I no longer own.  This being my last post in this thread, I would suggest going to Bugei's forum and asking the exact same question and see what you find there-
Chris

----------


## George Wright

> Although this is a nice sentiment it is again the height of hyperbole. If I read all the books and watched all the DVDs about samurai swordsmanship in the world, I think I would gain quite a bit more than 1 lesson from a master. Do books/dvds replace formal training? No. But are they useless/meaningless? No. Lets not all get out of hand here with our hyperbole.


I agree with you however i would have worded it differently. Your idea of 'gain' is probably different to mine. To me gain means to progress from your current point. You learn from your mistakes. Without someone there more skilled than yourself, to correct those mistakes, you yourself cannot do it as if you knew you wouldn't have made the mistake in the first place. So you can't progress as smoothly. Books and DVD's can teach you the basics, but there comes a point when you hit a wall (like myself) and cannot go any further without instruction. My wall is now at proper form, silent and mat cuts. So you could class that as 'hard targets'.
Training is also a fast track way. Eventually, if you are intelligent enough, you will work out what you were doing wrong. But it will take 10 times longer than a teacher showing you straight away. This also prevents you teaching yourself bad form and bad habits, which is then even harder to un-teach yourself. So its a long long road by yourself, most people in today's society would never have the time for that.

----------


## Jussi Ekholm

Well this is all about cutting, and nothing animal free in this post.

First of all it's impossible to tell what kind of bamboo people are cutting in videos, as I believe bamboos vary a lot in hardness, thickness and probably in many more aspects too.

Some small diameter decorative bamboos can easily be cut with a knife, I know since I've cut few of them just for fun.

I've seen videos of where bamboo is cut with huge force and where bamboo is cut by only tiny snap of the sword. It depends...

That longsword vs. katana video is just pure rubbish in my mind. (I don't get any more into that matter)

As far as force is concerned in cutting, you can cut many things with pure force only, just watch CS testing dvd (darn that makes me flinch). What is more necessary than force in cutting is motion. Well it's impossible for a beginner like me to explain it but as was taught in seminars that all body must do the cut not just the hands. When you have your whole body behind the cut you need very little power with your hands. The motion and sword will do the cutting instead of you forcing the cut with power by hands only.

As for cutting with katana, almost all the power should come from your body and left hand while right hand only guides the cut (someone more experienced in JSA can explain that better). Now in many cases of backyard cutting the cutting is made by "brute force" so that hands generate all the power in the cut making it sort of like baseball bat swing. When you combine very sharp object with big amount of force you get a combination that will cut.

The problem I believe many cutters seem to have is that they use too much force. That makes the cutting kinda reckless, as there is huge momentum moving the sword that is not easy to control. That is a scary situation where the sword is in control and not the man wielding it.

Maybe that last post of mine was bit too pro-backyard cutting, but it still had bit sense to me at least. All the thoughts don't always translate clearly enough to foreign language. The main point in that was cutting is for everyone.

Not knowing where you live I would still advice to at least visit a club that teaches swordarts (if possible). The sensei would most likely be very helpful and who knows if you catch yourself a new hobby there. While formal training is not requirement for cutting it makes it a lot easier and safer. Mr. Birch and Mr. Wright made a good points there how a teacher can easily correct things by watching by side when you cut. It's amazing how well they can "fine tune" your doings and the outcome is great cut, that you most likely would never get by just practicing by yourself.

I tend to draw a line between cutting and "destructive testing". There are objects that are just not wise to cut with a sword in my opinion. Some make videos where they cut these things in marketing purposes to show how "great" that product is. 

Ps. Always cut away from your leading leg.

----------


## Timo Nieminen

First, I would like to second this comment on Jussi's post. Cutting can be a very useful part of training in a sword martial art (hitting a pell, too; together, these are similar to bagwork and breaking in striking martial arts). And cutting for the sake of cutting is different from cutting as martial arts training.

Second, a question for Smood: Why a katana? You don't have training in a Japanese sword art, and don't appear to have strong plans to train in a Japanese sword art, especially not before cutting. So why a Japanese-style sword in particular? It's the rayskin on almost all non-bottom-end Japanese-style swords that really restricts your choices.

If you're prepared to go non-Japanese, there will be many more options. There are plenty of non Japanese-style swords that will cut comparably with katana, or potentially better: dao (one-handed, hand-and-a-half, two-handed), the right kind of jian, Viking swords, cutting-oriented medieval European swords, plenty of Malay-Indonesia-Philippines blades, kilij, shashka, shamshirs, and more.

For sub-$300 non-animal off-the-shelf choices, there are the Kris Cutlery willow-leaf dao (DAO-IV) and oxtail dao (DAO), most stuff from Traditional Filipino Blades (I don't know if any of their swords have horn handles; if it isn't specified as wood, you should ask), the Kris Cutlery kampilan, the Hanwei dadao (the older red-handled one; it has a synthetic scabbard, I think, but you should check; the newer brown-handled one has leather wrap and scabbard), various dao from all over the place (Zhisword has some nice dao at $299, but their $99 dao works too - but you would want to use epoxy or epoxy putty to get a close fit between handle and tang; it can be a bit roomy in there).

European swords will tend to have leather-covered grips or scabbards. I can't think of any off-hand that are animal free and in your price range. Albion does bare blades for under $200; these will give you a sub-$300 sword. For a little more, there are some non-animal Del Tins (e.g., Celtic anthropomorphic, some metal-hilted Migration/Germanic swords, Mac-bible choppers), and perhaps Albion can do a squire line sword with a cord-wrapped grip instead of leather.

The Cold Steel Grosse Messer and Talwar are non-animal swords, but have leather covered scabbards.

Some of the Weapon Edge swords have synthetic grips and metal scabbards. Not sharp, but can be sharpened.

And that's only looking at traditional blades, not modern "tactical" swords.

Plenty of choice if you go non-Japanese.

----------


## Smood R.

> Good lord, I should clarify my statement, those swords would "snap like twigs"in my own inexperienced hands against bamboo.  As far as brand they are hanwei katanas I no longer own.  This being my last post in this thread, I would suggest going to Bugei's forum and asking the exact same question and see what you find there-
> Chris


I apologize if I offended you, thank you for your contribution to this thread.




> First, I would like to second this comment on Jussi's post. Cutting can be a very useful part of training in a sword martial art (hitting a pell, too; together, these are similar to bagwork and breaking in striking martial arts). And cutting for the sake of cutting is different from cutting as martial arts training.
> 
> Second, a question for Smood: Why a katana? You don't have training in a Japanese sword art, and don't appear to have strong plans to train in a Japanese sword art, especially not before cutting. So why a Japanese-style sword in particular? It's the rayskin on almost all non-bottom-end Japanese-style swords that really restricts your choices.
> 
> If you're prepared to go non-Japanese, there will be many more options. There are plenty of non Japanese-style swords that will cut comparably with katana, or potentially better: dao (one-handed, hand-and-a-half, two-handed), the right kind of jian, Viking swords, cutting-oriented medieval European swords, plenty of Malay-Indonesia-Philippines blades, kilij, shashka, shamshirs, and more.
> 
> For sub-$300 non-animal off-the-shelf choices, there are the Kris Cutlery willow-leaf dao (DAO-IV) and oxtail dao (DAO), most stuff from Traditional Filipino Blades (I don't know if any of their swords have horn handles; if it isn't specified as wood, you should ask), the Kris Cutlery kampilan, the Hanwei dadao (the older red-handled one; it has a synthetic scabbard, I think, but you should check; the newer brown-handled one has leather wrap and scabbard), various dao from all over the place (Zhisword has some nice dao at $299, but their $99 dao works too - but you would want to use epoxy or epoxy putty to get a close fit between handle and tang; it can be a bit roomy in there).
> 
> European swords will tend to have leather-covered grips or scabbards. I can't think of any off-hand that are animal free and in your price range. Albion does bare blades for under $200; these will give you a sub-$300 sword. For a little more, there are some non-animal Del Tins (e.g., Celtic anthropomorphic, some metal-hilted Migration/Germanic swords, Mac-bible choppers), and perhaps Albion can do a squire line sword with a cord-wrapped grip instead of leather.
> ...


Firstly your assumption that I do not seem to aspire to have formal training in Japanese swords arts is incorrect. At the moment I am a full time student and am often away from home so time for proper training is almost 0 at the moment. In the near future after I complete my studies this will change. I think my desire to at least read about japanese history and sword arts while I am away from home partaking in my studies shows my dedication to this field of combat.

Secondly, I prefer Japanese sword arts and swords. The Katana is my favorite type of sword and thus I aspire to have one and use one.

I have come to the conclusion that as a first sword the Hanwei tactical Katana will serve me well. It has no animal fittings, seems strong (monotempered), comes from a well respected production sword maker and is relatively inexpensive. Now its just a matter of finding the best price.  :Smilie:

----------


## Timo Nieminen

> Firstly your assumption that I do not seem to aspire to have formal training in Japanese swords arts is incorrect.


"Aspire" is not "strong plans". If you are really _planning_ to train, there is an argument to be made that you should not do untutored cutting beforehand, as you'll learn all sorts of bad habits that you'll have to unlearn later. I don't agree with this argument, but I think that it's worthwhile paying attention to form, to cutting without trying to muscle through the cuts.




> Secondly, I prefer Japanese sword arts and swords. The Katana is my favorite type of sword and thus I aspire to have one and use one.


A valid choice. Do you want a katana, or a sword that only looks like a katana? That is, is it important to you that it handle like a "real" katana? Like a "good" katana? Just another question for you to consider, though perhaps it can't have much impact on your choice of first katana, with the very restricted options available (beyond DIY).

Don't believe stories about all "real" katana being alike - there's a lot of diversity. But there is something to be said for having a "typical" sword, especially if you only have one sword. How katana-like in handling the Hanwei tactical is, I don't know. If reviews say it's very un-katana-like, I wouldn't buy it as a katana. YMMV.

----------


## Smood R.

> "Aspire" is not "strong plans". If you are really _planning_ to train, there is an argument to be made that you should not do untutored cutting beforehand, as you'll learn all sorts of bad habits that you'll have to unlearn later. I don't agree with this argument, but I think that it's worthwhile paying attention to form, to cutting without trying to muscle through the cuts.
> 
> A valid choice. Do you want a katana, or a sword that only looks like a katana? That is, is it important to you that it handle like a "real" katana? Like a "good" katana? Just another question for you to consider, though perhaps it can't have much impact on your choice of first katana, with the very restricted options available (beyond DIY).
> 
> Don't believe stories about all "real" katana being alike - there's a lot of diversity. But there is something to be said for having a "typical" sword, especially if you only have one sword. How katana-like in handling the Hanwei tactical is, I don't know. If reviews say it's very un-katana-like, I wouldn't buy it as a katana. YMMV.


With all due respect I will not refrain from cutting anything before receiving formal training to do so. I respect your experience and knowledge but this is not a plan I wish to partake in. Any bad habits I develop from cutting light targets will have to be unlearned upon partaking in formal training. Although I suspect my form will be better due to my readings and study of the pictures and videos associated with Iaito then someone who does not care to read or view anything and simply goes in the back yard to do some slashing.

Secondly I am looking for a production Katana that feels like a true Katana and handles like a true Katana. I think the tactical Katana will be somewhat lighter than the average Katana but I think it will suit me well. 

Could you be so kind as to show me the reviews in which people say the tactical katana is very un-katana like? 

Thanks!

----------


## George Wright

I have seen a great review on the Hanwei Tac and they gave it a great write up. Nothing about it being a non-katana. Just smaller, thinner and lighter.

----------


## Smood R.

> I have seen a great review on the Hanwei Tac and they gave it a great write up. Nothing about it being a non-katana. Just smaller, thinner and lighter.


Ya I think I saw the same review. They mention due to the lightness the point of balance is moved closer to the hilt and is almost at the habaki. But I was looking for a lot of reviews to see what the negative things people say about it are and I could only really find a lot of reviews about the tactical wakizashi which people really love. Can you link me to that review George just in case its a different I haven't seen?

But please let me know about these reviews you are talking about Timo. Thanks.

----------


## Timo Nieminen

> Ya I think I saw the same review. They mention due to the lightness the point of balance is moved closer to the hilt and is almost at the habaki. But I was looking for a lot of reviews to see what the negative things people say about it are and I could only really find a lot of reviews about the tactical wakizashi which people really love. Can you link me to that review George just in case its a different I haven't seen?
> 
> But please let me know about these reviews you are talking about Timo. Thanks.


I didn't say there are any such reviews. As I wrote, I don't know about its handling. Either first-hand, or second-hand. *If* reviews say such-and-such, I'd pay attention to it. If there are no such reviews, what can be said? Perhaps you can write the first?

I haven't looked at many reviews on the tactical katana - I'm not planning to buy one in the near future - but I haven't seen any that say anything meaningful about its handling in the context of it being a katana. Given that the tactical wakizashi seems to have a point-of-balance too close to handle authentically, I'd look for some comments on this before buying. Again, YMMV.

Also, there is little choice, given your constraints, and this might be the best of the known-big-brand-name, non-animal, sub-$300 katana, non-differentially-hardened, without any customisation or modification. So even if it is less-than-optimal in this regard, it might still be an excellent choice for you.

----------


## George Wright

PM'd you that review Smood  :Smilie:

----------


## GrantK

I just browsed through this thread and I'm not sure what the topic really is now. Just to help with the original post traditionalfilipinoweapons.com has, what seems to be a katana with no animal parts, though not explicitly stated. The koiguchi looks like steel and there's no same, so everything seems to be synthetic except for the saya. You can try contact them, but Ive been hearing some good reviews about their blades on other forums.

http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.co...%20Katana.html

----------


## k.moralee

> With all due respect I will not refrain from cutting anything before receiving formal training to do so. I respect your experience and knowledge but this is not a plan I wish to partake in. Any bad habits I develop from cutting light targets will have to be unlearned upon partaking in formal training. *Although I suspect my form will be better due to my readings and study of the pictures and videos associated with Iaito then someone who does not care to read or view anything and simply goes in the back yard to do some slashing.*
> 
> Secondly I am looking for a production Katana that feels like a true Katana and handles like a true Katana. I think the tactical Katana will be somewhat lighter than the average Katana but I think it will suit me well. 
> 
> Could you be so kind as to show me the reviews in which people say the tactical katana is very un-katana like? 
> 
> Thanks!


Your form will be no better than the back yard samurai no matter what the amount of reading you go through. I guarantee it.

----------


## Smood R.

We will see.

----------


## M. Phan

I also second the opinion that bad habit is very difficult to unlearn.  I also will say that you cannot learn from video and book.   There is no way for you to know when you made a mistake (more likely many mistakes), even if you have a mirror to look at yourself.  People often think that they see something when it is in fact something else entirely.  Swordsmanship is complicate stuff.  You will need a qualified teacher.

If those of us who have instructors sill make mistakes despite having watchful instructors who scrutinize our every move, what make you think you can do better without one?

But if you insist in ignoring people who have formal training; you are free to travel down the path of most resistance.  You will be the one paying the price for your mistakes, not us.

----------


## Smood R.

> I also second the opinion that bad habit is very difficult to unlearn.  I also will say that you cannot learn from video and book.   There is no way for you to know when you made a mistake (more likely many mistakes), even if you have a mirror to look at yourself.  People often think that they see something when it is in fact something else entirely.  Swordsmanship is complicate stuff.  You will need a qualified teacher.
> 
> If those of us who have instructors sill make mistakes despite having watchful instructors who scrutinize our every move, what make you think you can do better without one?
> 
> But if you insist in ignoring people who have formal training; you are free to travel down the path of most resistance.  You will be the one paying the price for your mistakes, not us.


You sound like I am going to war in Sengoku period LOL. I'm not ignoring people. I suspect you have not read this thread sufficiently to understand my perspective.

----------


## Jeff Ellis

> I'm looking for a Katana with no animal derived components (like silk or bull horn etc..)


What's wrong with silk? It's a byproduct and feels really nice on the hands.  :Big Grin: 

As for your options, There's a sword on Kris Cutlery's site (the 26 and 29 II ) that might fit the bill. If you call or email them and ask, it would be the easiest way to see if there is any same under the wrap. I know that Cecil was not using animal products for a while because of his own personal beliefs, so you might find something good there. 

As for reworking a Cheness shirasaya, if they make their shirasaya similar to their tsuka, it's just routed out and jammed onto the nakago.

----------


## Jeff Ellis

You may also try looking here for ideas on how to customize your sword. Henry Ahmu was a great person and had some really nifty ideas and plans.

http://www.geocities.com/custom_tsuka/index.html

I thought he had an explanation of his cord wrap he used instead of same, I'll have to check around SFI and see if I can find his posts on it...

----------


## Jeff Ellis

> As for cutting I plan on Thick bamboo and basic things like light bottles etc. I do not have formal training but I have studied techniques from various books (including Flashing steel: Mastering Eishin-ryu swordsmanship).


Smood, 
I'm currently not training, but Flashing steel doesn't teach you how to cut. 

Shimabukuro Sensei and Pellman Sensei did not intend the book to be anything other than a study guide to help you with your lessons and training in the Jikishikai's version of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, Pellman Sensei states this in his classes.*

I can also assure you that Suino Sensei never intended for you to learn anything about cutting from his book, he is clear in his classes and seminars that the books are there to help you, not teach you.

All three of these men are training in Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, Suino Sensei is not part of the Jikishinkai and does things differently, so training from many books is probably not the best idea because certain things are done certain ways because certain things lead up to them..*

There is a disclaimer printed right in the books that they are not to be used to teach yourself in case you end up breaking your sword on a target and killing yourself or someone else.*

Where are you located? I'm sure we could help you find a dojo nearby.

----------


## Jussi Ekholm

Henry used nylon cord in his string wraps, could it have been similar to kite string?. I remember those well as I was really young then and had no access for same and when I saw those... I kept trying with (white) nylon, wool, silk etc. cords and threads but didn't get any good results.

I believe that hemp might be one of your best bets. Although I've been trying to get my hands on some hemp cloth here in Finland and it's hard to find and expensive. If you'd fine good quality hemp cloth you could wrap it around the tsuka like full same wrap. There is also tsukamaki style called Kojidai Asaito Makiage Zuka, it's a hemp wrap (with cord). Although it's traditionally applied over rayskin but I guess you could apply it straight onto woodcore (provided you have thin cord it could be applied in similar way as mr. Ahmu did his nylon wrap). Then do another round of tsukamaki on the style you like over it.

----------


## Jeff Ellis

> Henry used nylon cord in his string wraps, could it have been similar to kite string?. I remember those well as I was really young then and had no access for same and when I saw those... I kept trying with (white) nylon, wool, silk etc. cords and threads but didn't get any good results.


I think it was cotton. Cotton that was coated in ca adhesive or some sort of sealer.

----------

