# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Chinese, South-East Asia (CSEA) >  Ancient Sword Identification

## joseph haynes

I have a sword that was obtained by my father during the vietnam war. I have been researching trying to find information as to about its origination in correlation with time and location. After years of research I have come to the conclusion that it is a brahman ceremonial sword from the khmer empire. It has inscriptions I have been unable to get translated. Any information would be greatly appreciated. I am kindly obsessed with finding out the origination and story behind the sword. Here are some pictures.


                                                                                        Sincerely,

                                                                                       Joseph Haynes

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## Timo Nieminen

Looks Vietnamese to me. Tonkinese (i.e., from northern Vietnam). Check the Vietnamese swords article on Seven Stars Trading's website: http://sevenstarstrading.com/site/20...namese-swords/

Looks far too recent to be Khmer Empire, if by Khmer Empire you mean the medieval Khmer Empire which ended in the 15th century. If you mean more recent states in Cambodia, that might be more likely, but I don't know if swords of this style were used there. Sword guards of the style on yours were used there in the 19th and 20th century, so perhaps.

The blade looks Vietnamese, the scabbard fittings look Vietnamese, guards like this were used in Vietnam (although on more recent swords, a knucklebow seems more common), so that remains my best guess.

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## joseph haynes

it actually is alot older when you see it in person as a matter of fact it is so old that it is brittle. As far as the inscriptions of the blade goes, I literally had to take a pencil  write on the sword itself then use a piece of paper that I actually used deoderant on lol then traced it you know like you used to do the quarters as a kid so it will show the outline. Also, traditionally in the brahman religion it is quite common for the sword to be passed down and the everything but the blade be replaced. Due to the fact that they are kept in the family of the priesthood and passed down. Anything on the writing would be much more helpful. I don't in fact think that a vietnamese blade would have what could resemble thia, brahman, or khmer type writing on it. Also I don't believe the handle matches up with the 19th or 20th century ones. Actually swords with curvature (dao) are believed to existed in the khmer empire the original khmer empire due to the turko-mongol influence. As a matter of fact years ago I sent information to an archaelogist from harvard, who said by the inscriptions and the pictures it could be 500 years old if it was a replica or up to 2000 years old if not, but she never said what kind because she said that wasnt her profession. After looking and looking for more info I found that it resembled the swords from the song dynasty, which would put it during the khmer empire. I'm thinking possibly a khmer dha after reading another forum http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001695.html

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## joseph haynes

The link I posted above I was referring to the dha that is explained such as my sword 

for the most part they share some common elements that make them "dha".

1. Cylindrical handles: from the really long two-handers to single handers. I usually associate the really long handles of this type to hail from Thailand and Laos, and the shorter handles from Burma. Exceptions do exist.;

2. Curved, single edged blades (usually saber-tipped or spear-tipped, although many many exceptions have appeared, especially on this board);

3. No guard, or a vestigial tsuba-like guard (I've seen this only on swords from Thailand and Laos.)"


Plus after the French bankrolled the
 establishment of the Nguyen dynasty in 1802, lion-head pommels began appearing.
 These sabers are essentially European in design, with ‘D’ shaded knucklebows.
wouldn't that make it pre 19th century

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## Timo Nieminen

> The link I posted above I was referring to the dha that is explained such as my sword 
> 
> for the most part they share some common elements that make them "dha".
> 
> 1. Cylindrical handles: from the really long two-handers to single handers. I usually associate the really long handles of this type to hail from Thailand and Laos, and the shorter handles from Burma. Exceptions do exist.;
> 
> 2. Curved, single edged blades (usually saber-tipped or spear-tipped, although many many exceptions have appeared, especially on this board);
> 
> 3. No guard, or a vestigial tsuba-like guard (I've seen this only on swords from Thailand and Laos.)"
> ...


Since your sword doesn't have 1 or 3, and the blade isn't the shape of a typical dha blade, either (it is single-edged, but it doesn't have the usual profile of a dha), why call it a dha?

Look at the shape of your grip. Look at the Vietnamese sword with grip of that same shape in the link I posted (that was the only non-knucklebow example I could find easily). From artwork, such grips (and tsuba-like guards) were common into the 19th century.

The blade is very similar to that of northern Vietnamese swords, the grip is similar to northern Vietnamese sword grips (also similar to various Indonesian swords), the tsuba is similar to Vietnamese and Cambodian tsuba of the 18th-20th centuries, and the scabbard mountings are of the style used in Vietnam. These are _facts_, and can be verified by looking at examples. If you look at knucklebow-hilted Vietnamese swords, you will see blades and scabbards of very similar form. I already linked an example of similar guard and grip.

I've seen disc-shaped guards on supposed Khmer swords (here is an example), but not in this Japanese-influenced two-hole style (these look like they're copied from Japanese tsuba with holes for kozuka and kogai). I've only seen more recent examples.

I haven't seen Cambodian swords, or Khmer Empire swords in that style, so I see no reason to think it Khmer. The only supposedly Khmer Empire swords I've seen have bronze handles and have differently-shaped blades. It's suspected that dha-type swords were used then, too. But this isn't a dha-type sword. So why Khmer? This isn't based on facts, this is based on lack of facts, so examples of similar Khmer Empire swords make this go from "no reason to think it Khmer" to "good reasons to think it Khmer". Any examples?

I don't think that the blade can possibly be 15th century or earlier. This is an _opinion_. If you _know_ that it is that old, or older, that's better than opinion. There is also the possibility of metallurgical testing (destructive, but a small sample might do).

If the "writing" is writing, get it translated. That might provide something definite.

Here's an interesting sword, described as 15th century Vietnamese. If so, this is contemporary with the Khmer Empire, and has, in common with the usual supposedly Khmer swords usually seen, a bronze grip. Two-handed, but otherwise similar in shape to yours (and the more recent example from the article on the Seven Stars site).

I say "supposed" in relation these Khmer swords since these seem to usually be from "unauthorised excavations" (some might be modern fakes, too), and thus the sites where they came from are not known. So, where they come from and their age are uncertain. They are marketed as Khmer.

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## joseph haynes

The size actually mathes up with the khmer blade. As far as the writings, the archaeologist said they were more like pictograms. The priests, when performing ceremonies would make a sword, but instead of using writing they would use symbols, which usually could only be translated by the specific clan of preists.  The blade seems to be of iron. The symbols seem to be related to some Brahmi derivative script, but due to the fact they are pictures tells me it whas a priests ceremonial sword.  Also, how would I get it translated if its symbols from a certain clan of priests. the blade has actually been cleaned and what does the core of the 19th-20th century vietnamese swords look like at the hilt, because this is like wood then wrapped in something else there is no way of taking it off without messing it up. Also when my father obtained it, it was from what I believe to be a brahman priest, because he was in all white and had a turban such as the brahmans. I really appreciate your time. As I mentioned before I am very interested in knowing the whole story behind it.
Also here is a link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dha_(sword) it supports my previous thoughs of the khmer dha with a downward curved hilt as well as tsuba type pommel from around the 13th century. It also states that they typically had inscriptions on the blade. It also states due to their culture being established before the burmese and thai which could possible mean that they invented the dha sword.  Thanks in advance for any replies. I appreciate the help

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## Timo Nieminen

> The size actually mathes up with the khmer blade. As far as the writings, the archaeologist said they were more like pictograms. The priests, when performing ceremonies would make a sword, but instead of using writing they would use symbols, which usually could only be translated by the specific clan of preists.  The blade seems to be of iron. The symbols seem to be related to some Brahmi derivative script, but due to the fact they are pictures tells me it whas a priests ceremonial sword.  Also, how would I get it translated if its symbols from a certain clan of priests.


Where is this information from? Do you have a reliable (written) source for what you say about symbols and clans of priests? If it's from the archaeologist, I think you might have gotten a dud archaeologist.




> what does the core of the 19th-20th century vietnamese swords look like at the hilt, because this is like wood then wrapped in something else there is no way of taking it off without messing it up.


I haven't seen a Vietnamese sword without the pommel. From your picture, I assumed it was horn. In the Malay-Indonesian-Philippine area, the hollow is AFAIK usually filled with resin (often with additives, such as ash, sand, powdered stone, etc.). I can't tell from your photo what your fill is. Resin fills are used in continental SE Asia as well. A wooden hilt might use resin as a glue to secure the blade, but wouldn't (or at least shouldn't) have a big hollow to fill. 




> Also here is a link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dha_(sword) it supports my previous thoughs of the khmer dha with a downward curved hilt as well as tsuba type pommel from around the 13th century. It also states that they typically had inscriptions on the blade.


Sorry, I don't see anything about downward curved hilts there (only downward curved blades). What text do you mean? As for inscriptions, no, it doesn't say "typically" (which would imply a majority of them), just "often" (meaning it isn't unusual). But most dha "inscriptions" are maker's marks or simple talismanic symbols (emphasis on simple!). There are fancy inscriptions; see e.g., the dha at http://www.arscives.com/historysteel....swordlist.htm.

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## David Sorcher

Joseph, it seems that you are approaching your research from the perspective of attempting to prove what you already think you know about this sword. It is very difficult to learn anything about a weapon with this method. Firstly this sword is not "ancient" by any reasonable interpretation of the word. The word is generally reserved for items which date to before the fall of the Western Roman Empire (476 A.D.). It does look old and is probably antique. It does not, however, come from the Khmer Empire. It might be as old as the 19th century though. It probably appears older to you because it has not been well maintained over the years. Better, more detailed photos shot in better light (use natural light, preferably on a bright, but overcast day).
This is not a dha, IMO. It clearly has elements that you do not find on traditional dha. It has a tsuba-like guard which are not present on dha and it has what appears to be a rather deep fuller along part of the top edge of the blade which would be fairly uncommon for a dha. Here are some more dha examples for you to look at. Look carefully and you will see the differences.  
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001791.html
BTW, when sword that is IDed as Khmer, as you have noted with some dha, it is not necessarily an indication that the sword is from the Khmer EMPIRE. The Khmer are a PEOPLE. 80% of the population of Cambodia is considered to be Khmer and over a million Khmers live in Vietnam. Different sword styles develop out of different cultures. A Khmer dha is therefore culturally Khmer, not from the 15 century empire. 
Also, it would be a bit strange for a Brahman priest in Vietnam to be dressed in a turban. The Brahman tradition is couched in Buddhism in this area of the world and Brahman dress would not include a turban as you might find in India.

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## joseph haynes

Actually if you check out some of the history most of the southern asian religious views derived from india as well is iranian INDO-IRANIAN in terms speeking linguistically so that would support according to the migration during religious/political war migration of the brahman priests. actually it has been well maintained, as a matter of fact it was wrapped in plastic and then in a parachute when he got it.As far  as where he got it, it was a village elder wearing a white robe and a turban that resembles that of the brahman. As far as the buddhism it as well as taoism derived from the brahmanism anything that could link that. Also the link did speak of dhas that had tsuba like guards for the record under the anatomy section "Thai daab may have a guard similar to the tsuba of the Japanese katana." As far as the ancient, that was told to me by the archaeologist, who graduated harvard so I wouldnt say she didn't know what she was talking about because she knew almost exactly of its whereabouts. Why would a blade have ancient inscriptions, could it be religion passed down, rather than converting like most.

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## David Sorcher

Joseph, i think i'm pretty much done here. If you want this to be an ancient Khmer Empire Dha, that's fine with me. You are welcome to believe whatever you like about this sword, but i am uncertain why you brought it to this forum for advice if all you want to do is to disregard that advice.
But for the last time, just to be clear for you, i never said that Hindu religious views didn't have an influence on SEA. I am quite aware that they did. I never said that there are no brahman priests in Vietnam. There certainly are. Please read my words clearly to avoid further misunderstanding. 
What i wrote is that a Brahman Priest in Vietnam adopts the cultural dress of that area and would not wear a white turban as they would in India. I wrote that Brahmanism in that part of the world is couched within Buddhism, not that it does't exist. I am not doubting the family story that a man in a white turban gave this sword to your father, just that this would be a sign of his being a Brahman priest in the culture of Vietnam.
I have found an image of a Thai daab that does bare some resemblance to your sword, though your sword does have a somewhat different blade profile. Of course, if your sword is a Thai daab, then it is not, by exclusion, a Khmer Empire dha. Again, your sword does have age, but i seriously doubt more than 150 years at best. That actually makes it pretty interesting to me. But believe what you will. Personally, i don't care if your archeologist graduated Harvard. If she referred to this blade as ancient then she missed some seriously important parts of her education.  :Wink: 
As for "ancient inscriptions" on the blade, sword makers have been placing talismanic symbols of blades for a very long time and still do to this day. Most often these symbols, if not an actual language, are person symbols to the original owner and remain undecipherable to all but him.

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## joseph haynes

I know that they put symbols only decipherable to them. That is what I was referring to with the different clans of the brahman priest having different symbols for spiritual purposes. Its not that I want to believe that it is an ancient khmer empire sword. However the time frame I have been given on this forum went from 19th-20th century then was contradicted that it was used up into the 19th century wich would rule out 20th century then another 18th-20th century well since the 20th is ruled out that would be 18th-19th century brahman ceremonial sword originating from what "some" say vietnam. I'm not trying to act like its something its not I have researched for years on cultural differences in correlation with religion. That is what I was going by the symbols were what were said to be ancient and basically a dead language so again the archaeologist was not a dud, For she gave me one certain answer rather than 2 or 3, where one contradicts. So if you want to judge people for what you think, just because they have questioned what you wrote, because they are eager to learn, then so be it. I'm done too. However I still appreciate the time although could have done withouth some of the rude remarks, But it is only fair to thank you since you have given your time.

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## Timo Nieminen

> However the time frame I have been given on this forum went from 19th-20th century then was contradicted that it was used up into the 19th century wich would rule out 20th century then another 18th-20th century well since the 20th is ruled out


No. That isn't an accurate summary of what I wrote.

Such tsuba have definitely been used in Vietnam in the 18th-20th centuries. Such tsuba have definitely been used in Cambodia in the 19th and 20th century. Probably earlier in both regions, but I haven't seen good examples. Such _grips_ were _common_ in Vietnam into the 19th century. If the 20th century examples of northern Vietnamese sabers I've seen are a fair representive, the majority have knucklebow grips, and grips such as on yours are _not common_. But still used.

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## David Sorcher

Well, the only place i have contradicted  myself Joseph is now, because i did say i was done, but i'm back.  :Smilie: 
As for rudness, i have been straight with you, that is true, but i can see no place where i was ever rude (though perhaps i might have been rude to your archeologist  :Big Grin:  ). I am sorry if you saw it any other way.
It would seem that BOTH Timo and i pretty much think this sword is most probably 19th century from the area of Viet Nam. Is there some possibility it could be as old as 18th century. Perhaps.... But this is NOT a contradiction, simply a fact about aging ANY old weapon. It is not an exact science and style shifts sometimes take place over a period of time. Without exacting provenance you can NEVER give an exacting date and 50-100 years difference in estimates is to be expected. But it is in NO WAY an ancient sword, regardless of the symbols.  :Wink:  Again, better pictures would be helpful here, but you have never backed up your assertion that Brahman clans use these for some secret communication. You got one opinion from an archeologist who looked at your drawings of these marks (not even the actual sword) and pronounced them 500-2000 years old even though she had no idea what they were because linguistics was outside her profession. Nothing that you have told us, other than the fact that your father received this sword from a man in a white turban, points to this being a Brahman temple sword. You have made this assumption based upon what you believe a Brahman priest dresses like, but in Vietnam that dress would not be that same as in India. You have also asserted that the symbols on the sword, by your observation, seem to be derived from Brahmi script, but after spending some time looking at various styles of Brahmi script i can see absolutely no relationship. If you are going to dismiss our observations so readily it might be nice of you to provide some sort of actual basis for your ideas. Show us some photos. Link us to some linguistics pages....something that helps to support your assertions here. From what you have given us i see no reason to believe that this sword has anything to do with a Brahman temple. That is not to say that it doesn't, simply that you have not provided us any reasons to back-up that assertion. 
The reason i agree with Timo on Viet Nam as origin is because of the sheath and hilt. Both these aspects can be clearly shown to be specifically Vietnamese is style. Also, this specific type of tsuba is common on these Vietnamese swords as also can be shown. They are not so much on dha from other areas. If you look closely at the Thai daab i posted earlier you might notice that even that guard is different, lacking the pierced areas of yours, not quite a true tsuba.  I have attached another similar blade to yours that is also supposed to be from Viet Nam. I have also attached two Vietnamese swords that have the knuckle bow grip, but use the same exact sheath type as yours. This sheath type is rather specific to Viet Nam which again is why Timo and i agree that your sword is Vietnamese. If it swims like a duck and it walks like a duck....Funny that your dad got a Vietnamese sword in Viet Nam, eh?  :Wink:  
BTW, while some might find similarities to the dha in these blades, they are actually referred to as Guom swords in Vietnam.
http://www.google.com/search?q=vietn...w=1365&bih=724

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## joseph haynes

See it is the remarks like that that are rude. How about if I said well  you have only given me information that other websites have provided to you so how can I be certain of that. And as for you saying you have provided no proof except for what you think a brahman would dress like. You know it insults my intelligence believing that I would think brahmans from both places would dress exactly alike. See that is your problem you look at the Brahmi script itself, well that in itself would be ignorant if the sword isn't from that location. However, if  you looked at languages that derive from the brahmi script, such as tamil, teluga, kannada. So obviously your research on the Brahmi script was very vague and lacking the link between the Brahmi Script then and the different languages that derived from it. As far as the Brahman who else in vietnam would be wearing solid white with a white turban I don't think the grocery store owner would. I do believe that it is vietnamese, however all the pictures you have shown the hilt does not match up therefore I do not think your timeline is quite right. Also, if you look at the style of the blade, and being norther vietnamese such as you said it would have influence from either the song dynasty, or even further back the turko-mongol saber. Also, I never asserted that brahmans use them for secret communication I said the symbolism is passed down and only known to that clan, in other words certain symbols are connected to certain clans. There were japanese there during the 15th 16th century. so give or take a couple hundred years no biggie just a difference in rulers, empire, culture, but no biggie. And as far as the picture of the sword from the 15th century similar to mine well there actually was japanese influence during that time. it's just the point of asking where did you get this information I don't ask you every statement you make to verify I only ask questions because I want to know but that is ok, because its not uncommon for people to be asinine to the learning of someone else just because they think they know it all. I am not disreguarding any information I am simply asking questions. They because you have been questioned you start posting asinine remarks. so good luck with that attitude. i'm done and unlike some people there are two things I have in my life thats my word and my balls and I don't intend on breaking either one

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## Ryan Sh

Wearing all white, maybe he was in morning? as far as being Khmer in Vietnam (which is possible, of course the vietnam war was also fought in cambodia), there doesn't seem enough information to say either way. An expert on South East Asian culture could probably tell you what type of people wear all white and owned swords. A sword expert can only say what other swords it looks like.

The best way to explore the hypothesis that it is an Khmer Empire sword is to look at known khmer empire swords
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...ds-600-1434-AD
yours looks like it is in much better condition.

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## David Sorcher

Again Joseph, i have said nothing rude to you, simply questioned or disagreed with your conclusions. I have not lowered myself to ad hominem attack as you have here calling me "asinine". That IS rude and out of line. 
I am curious what 15th Century sword you have shown or linked a picture of that is similar to yours. I must have missed that. The reason i posted the swords with the knuckle guard was simply to show you more examples of this distinctly Vietnamese form of sheath.
I have conceded that your father received this sword from a white turbaned man who may well have been a Brahman priest. Doesn't make your sword either ancient nor a Brahman temple sword. I remain open to evidence that it has been used for religious purposes by a Brahman sect, but i have not seen any. I don't make conclusions based on no significant evidence. I do still maintain, and will continue to maintain, that this sword is not ancient or as old as the 15th century. 
BTW, if a select clan had placed symbols on a blade that only others in that select clan can decipher when the sword is passed down, that is indeed a form of "secret communication". What else would you call it? Your symbols don't resemble Tamil, Teluga or Kannada writing either, so i'm not sure why you bother to bring them up. They do somewhat resemble the pictographic images that i have attached in the image below which were copied from some ancient bronze artifacts from Viet Nam. Indeed actual ancient swords from the area would likewise most likely be bronze, not iron or steel. There are no exact matches here, but some similarities. Of course, simply placing ancient symbols on a blade does not date it to the era. It is merely a way to create an connection to the past of a certain people and again, the symbols on your blade probably hold some talismanic power for the original owner. This is a common practice with swords. I can show you many swords that have symbols and images inscribed on then that derive from magical symbolism of past eras dating back many centuries before the creation of the blade.
You seem to have a wonderful way for hearing only what you want to hear and only accepting information in this conversation that supports your hope that this sword is older than it actually is. You also like to twist my words to mean things never intended. You take offense from people who are trying their best to help you solve a puzzle that *you* brought here to this forum for answers you do not hold. You say you are intent on not breaking your own balls, yet you seem determined to try to break mine. Likewise, my friend, good luck with that attitude.  :Smilie:

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## David Sorcher

> Wearing all white, maybe he was in morning? as far as being Khmer in Vietnam (which is possible, of course the vietnam war was also fought in cambodia), there doesn't seem enough information to say either way. An expert on South East Asian culture could probably tell you what type of people wear all white and owned swords. A sword expert can only say what other swords it looks like.
> 
> The best way to explore the hypothesis that it is an Khmer Empire sword is to look at known khmer empire swords
> http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...ds-600-1434-AD
> yours looks like it is in much better condition.


Thanks for the link Ryan. Looks like different blade forms altogether as far as i can tell. Of course, sheaths from this era would not be very likely to survive over the centuries as wood objects in that region do not have such a great like span. I am still interested is seeing what image Joseph thought was of a 15th century sword that looked like his.

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## joseph haynes

looks to me like the hilt of mine resembles more of that of the top khmer sword of the link you showed me. However I do believe it to be vietnamese just don't appreciate attitude of other people who question how  you know what you do, just because they have no knowledge of it. Extensive study thats how. Beings that it  does not have the knucklebow  which was common starting 1802, which would put it 19th century. I believe it is 18th century tonkin saber, possibly linked to the khmer people. Thanks in advance for any replies

song dynasty resemblence
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...QEwCA&dur=4796

turko-mongol saber resemblence
http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/catalog.html

and the 15th century vietnamese sword with resemblence to mine but 2 handed with no tsuba however during the 15th-16th centuries the tsuba influene came about
http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3219

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## Ryan Sh

Well, the north of Vietnam was the least Franconized, and closest to Japan. I believe it is the hilt is one of the biggest indicators of it being from the north. using google translate I read the Vietnamese wikipedia article on swords, they use the term dao to describe this kind of sword referring to it as being two handed and having khmer influence. even has a picture of some from 18th and 19th century.

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## David Sorcher

Well, i'm not sure what resemblance you see in the Song sword. The blade profile is very different. And i hope you realize that this is a modern repro you are looking at.
Same with the Turk-mongol blade on profile. Different blade form, especially at the tip.
The Oriental Arms sword is much closer, which is probably because your sword style developed out of this one, though yours came centuries later. No surprise there.   
Certainly sabers from all over the world will show us all some similarities, but i am uncertain what point you are trying to prove about your own sword with these examples.
The first example i posted in post #13 is much closer to your sword than any of these. The knucklebow examples i have posted show the exact sheath form your sword has which was my reason for posting those. 
You place 1802 as the point when knucklebow hilts began. I am not sure exactly why you pick this date of 1802 for this sudden change over, but one form of hilt is not going to immediately replace another. The first French intervention in Vietnam lasted to about 1820. It is very likely that both these hilt forms coincided for a number of years and very possible that your hilt form continued even past 1820. As Ryan has pointed out, the North was the least Franconized are of Vietnam, so less likely to adopt this European form. So yes, your blade could possibly be a late 18th century blade as i stated also in post #13 or it could be an early 19th century blade. There is no way to exactly date this sword, but that range is certainly possible. I tend to lean towards 19th C as you know. This does seem a long way from your original assertions of "ancient sword" or even a 15th Century Khmer sword. These were the main two points i have been debating with you from the beginning. Glad to see that you have finally come around.  :Wink:

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## Ryan Sh

I have seen swords that more closely resemble yours than those pictures. If you are saying that Turkic-Mongol sabers were copied by the Chinese who were in turn copied by the Vietnamese, that is probably right, but I don't see how your sword is closer related to those swords than any other Vietnamese swords. I think that you would be better off comparing your sword to other Vietnamese swords, to see how unique it is. I am not an expert, and have only seen pictures of Vietnamese swords, but it does seem that most common are the two handed dai dao, which yours is not. Of the few pictures of tonkin daos I have seen besides yours, the 19th century one from sevenstarstrading most resembles yours. mainly because the hilt curves down. I am not sure that it means anything

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## Timo Nieminen

The northern Vietnamese swords are very Chinese influenced (as compared with southern swords, which have more in common with Cambodian/Burmese/Thai swords). But rather than looking for Song/Mongol influence on 19th century northern Vietnamese swords, it's more productive to look for resemblance to 19th century Chinese swords. And the resemblance is there.

The angled down-turned hilt appears to be distinctly Vietnamese, rather than Chinese. Chinese hilts of this time are straight or down-curved, but smoothly down-curved. Angled down-turned hilts are also to be seen on Indonesian swords, but I don't know whether this reflects any Indonesian influence.

Ian Heath's book on 19th century armies of Burma and Indo-China has the common soldiers carrying swords with this type of hilt (or possibly Chinese style hilts - hard to tell in many of the drawings). At any rate, they are still carrying traditional local weapons, rather than Europeanised weapons. The knucklebow hilts look like they come in as officer's swords.

The top two swords in post #19 are very Chinese in style. The bottom two are two-handed dha-style rather than the one-handed Tonkin sabre style, but interesting to see that they have the same style of scabbard (rather than dha-style scabbards).

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## joseph haynes

ok thank you for all the help now to better understand where I was coming from. The Khmer Empire was about 10% Brahmans, ok since my father got it from a man in solid white that is where I got the brahman association. In brahmanism the ones who actually are the brahman (priest) where solid white. It was very common for them to perform rituals with ceremonial swords, using symbolism rather than script, and where possibly the first ones to do just that. Also, as for the curvature of the sword, as to my knowledge it was influenced on China by the mongols. Due to the split in religion, from brahmanism on, came about the Khmer Empire, with influences from buddhism, i think taoism, brahmanism, which were all branched from hinduism. That is where all the associations I had came from, this information that I studies for quite some time becaue I could never get an answer anywhere else. Oh and is there a particular reason as to why the hilt on mine is resin filled withouth the tip that looks like its screwed on with the metal piece??? Thanks to All 
out of curiosity what would it be worth a couple hundred dollars, although the sintamental value is much more.

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## joseph haynes

oh yeah and christies the auction deal actually did tell me it was a temple sword but they lacked any more knowledge other than that

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## David Sorcher

I think you will find that Brahmin priests wear all sorts of colors, though it is possible that white is reserved for special occasions or ceremonies. But if you look at the various Brahmin's from different areas in these photos you will see quite a variance of colors worn. This isn't to say that your guy wasn't a Brahmin, just that white is not all they wear.
http://www.google.com/search?q=brahm...w=1365&bih=756

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## Timo Nieminen

> Also, as for the curvature of the sword, as to my knowledge it was influenced on China by the mongols.


In the generic sense of "Mongols", there was influence. We see curved swords in Central Asia as early as the 8th century (7th perhaps? Not much earlier than that AFAIK.) There are some pre-Tang and Tang Chinese curved swords; the earlier ones might predate the use of curved swords by Turks/Mongols. But curved swords weren't common in China, until Song. Lots of trade between China and Central Asia, and influence flowed both ways. By just before the Mongol conquest of China, curved swords look more common in China than in the Mongol Empire.

Where the Mongol conquest is possibly significant for Indochina is the conquest of Yunnan, which, with the Ming conquest of Yunnan after the fall of the Yuan, brought a lot more direct contact with China.

But curved swords were used in southern India by the 6th century, so this is another possible influence on local swords such as the dha.

As for northern Vietnamese swords, plenty of Chinese influence, but this is also much later.




> Oh and is there a particular reason as to why the hilt on mine is resin filled withouth the tip that looks like its screwed on with the metal piece???


Likely it had a pommel, and it fell off and wasn't replaced.

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## joseph haynes

Yeah white just shows the highest form usually born into priesthood, where as the red intertwines katriyas that have chosen to become brahman  (priest) rather than born into it. We have to remember they used the caste alot of times the colors they wore is what determined the caste.

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## joseph haynes

I'm also curious what type of pommel would you think or maybe just resin filled. Here are a few more pics i think i haven't preposted them. Also, what would the tsuba be made out of. Would I be able to clean it up and with what safely. And what is the decorative items around the scabbard made out of. Sorry for all the ?s just curious I'd like to clean it up to where it looked new. Awesome family heirloom, would like to keep it looking good. and if there isn't a way, who could I possibly contact for restoration. Thanks in advance for any replies.

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## Timo Nieminen

> I'm also curious what type of pommel would you think or maybe just resin filled.


For Vietnamese hilts, I don't know. For Indonesian horn hilts, I've seen metal plates and horn plates. Metal plates can be done two ways. First, the tang can go through the plate, and be peened to hold the plate. That is, the plate is basically a peen block. Sometimes, there will be a washer as well. This isn't likely to fall off. Otherwise, the plate can be very thin, perhaps with the edges folded, and then glued on. If the glue fails, off comes the cap. Also, if silver, they can get removed for their value.

A horn plate could be glued on as a cap, as well. I've seen photos where this looks what is done, but I haven't handled one. Wood could be used as well. Again, if the glue fails, off it comes.

A brass/bronze cap to match the decorated parts at the guard end of the grip would make sense. The line around the butt of the grip might be where the edge of such a pommel cap came to.




> Also, what would the tsuba be made out of. Would I be able to clean it up and with what safely. And what is the decorative items around the scabbard made out of.


Probably brass or bronze, for both tsuba and scabbard fittings. Japanese tsuba are deliberately patinated, so polishing them is a big no-no. Don't know about Vietnamese or other Indochinese tsuba - if these were normally polished, then clean-and-polish is a reasonable restoration.

The whole cleaning, polishing, and restoring antiques thing is much discussed, and you might find useful information here using the search function. Some people will say "do as little as possible" - stop active rust, and stop it from falling apart, but remove no patina, don't make it look "new". OTOH, restoration can sometimes make a rather shabby piece into a spectacular thing. The extreme case of this is the polishing and remounting of old Japanese blades.

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## joseph haynes

wow any chance of findind a pommel for it and what do you mean by remounting of the blade exactly

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## Timo Nieminen

Finding a pommel: very little chance. But you can have one made. An ornamented brass/bronze one to match the rest would be harder to do than a plain one. How about a plain silver one? Talk to a jeweler (professional or hobby), see what they think. Thin silver sheet, made into a cap to fit over the pommel up to the line. If you need to do anything with the resin fill, do it first (epoxy is the easy modern resin substitute).

As for remounting, when this is done with Japanese blades, it's thorough. The blade (usually) gets polished - a significant amount of steel gets removed, so it can only be done so many times (and it's expensive), a new tsuka (handle) is made, a new scabbard is made (often both a "working" set of fittings, and a shirasaya for storage). Sometimes the old tusba, fuchi, kashira, menuki are kept and reused, and sometimes they are replaced. It's a multi-thousand dollar experience, and is a poor investment if the blade is not of a high standard. I mentioned this as an extreme alternative to the "leave it alone" school of antique care.

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