# Communities > Bladesmiths, Blacksmiths, Artisans and Professionals > Japanese-Style Sword Makers Cafe >  Looks great!

## D.A. Guertin

The top post look like a great starting point, Adrian!  Thanks!

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## Gabriel L

Wow, I was surprised when I came on the site... but change is good.  The illustrations actually look very nice, with some of the most well illustrated hamon I've seen.  My only question would be if you could clarify what I PERCEIVED (I could be wrong, please check this) as minor mistakes in the lines for the illustration of the tip area.  I thought that the mune was supposed to be continuous, not angle down near the tip.  This would mean that the ko-shinogi (not at all sure if this is the right term, trying desperately to remember what the name of that little ridge above the kissaki is called) angles slightly up, as opposed to staying parallel to the shinogi.

Oh, what the heck, I can't explain what I mean in the slightest.  Hold on while I whip up a very crude drawing.  In the meantime, for an intro to terminology, it's actually the best I've seen online as you can actually get a sense of what the grain and the sword surface actually looks like.  Great illustrations all in all, Mr. Ko, and I'm not presuming to "correct" anyone as I'm sure I know less than most.  Just asking if the mune ever angled down like that on traditional blades.

Here's what I meant:

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## Brian VanSpeybroeck

And a hearty "Thank You" to those who were involved with setting up a specific place to discuss the ins and outs of the Japanese style sword game.

I look forward to having the ability to discuss any and all aspects of this specific style with others who are involved in it. I am a bit concerned that there will be interference from folks not directly involved with the crafts and that they will end up here to get answers to questions they don't get a response to on the Bladesmiths Forum or the General Forum. But I will wait and see how it all pans out before judging the level of my participation.

For now it looks mighty cool and like a good idea!!

Thanks again and *NEENER NEENER* I posted the first picture!!



 :Big Grin:    Brian

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## JohnD

> _Originally posted by Brian VanSpeybroeck_ 
> *And a hearty "Thank You" to those who were involved with setting up a specific place to discuss the ins and outs of the Japanese style sword game.
> 
> I look forward to having the ability to discuss any and all aspects of this specific style with others who are involved in it. I am a bit concerned that there will be interference from folks not directly involved with the crafts and that they will end up here to get answers to questions they don't get a response to on the Bladesmiths Forum or the General Forum. But I will wait and see how it all pans out before judging the level of my participation.
> 
> For now it looks mighty cool and like a good idea!!
> 
> Thanks again and *NEENER NEENER* I posted the first picture!!
> 
> ...


First off, Thank you Adrian and Dennis for making this happen. Your efforts are greatly appreciated. 

I agree with you Brian about your concerns about interference from folks *not* directly involved with the craft. However, we're just starting out so we'll see how it goes. 

Cool blade dude! Looks strong, mean and ready for businness. Look forward to seeing it completed :Smilie:  Care to share more details about the blade and how you plan on mounting it?

Anyway, I get to post the second pic then :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Patrick Hastings

> _Originally posted by Brian VanSpeybroeck_ 
> *I am a bit concerned that there will be interference from folks not directly involved with the crafts and that they will end up here to get answers to questions they don't get a response to on the Bladesmiths Forum or the General Forum. *


Brian that is valid concern. Since John brought it up to me, I have been thinking about this. I think as long as just anybody has the ability to post where they like, the professional forums will fall short of the professional policy. No moderator is on enough to catch these types of posts before a bunch of good information is added to the thread. Then the post is left alone Because of its replies. This only encourages more Amateur posts. The Blade smith cafe has basically become the "How do I get started on my new hobby" forum. That isnt necessarily a bad thing, but it is contrary to the Concept of the professional only forum. The Amateur posts or people asking shopping questions often generate some pretty good responses and stimulate conversation. I like the idea of a Professional only forum, but it just seem unrealistic on an open forum system packed with inquiring minds.

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## Joseph Renner

John and Brian, 
Good pics.
I dont want to presume anything, but this might be a good addition.
Joe Renner

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## Brian VanSpeybroeck

> _Originally posted by Patrick Hastings_ 
> *
> 
> Brian that is valid concern. Since John brought it up to me, I have been thinking about this. I think as long as just anybody has the ability to post where they like, the professional forums will fall short of the professional policy. No moderator is on enough to catch these types of posts before a bunch of good information is added to the thread. Then the post is left alone Because of its replies. This only encourages more Amateur posts. The Blade smith cafe has basically become the "How do I get started on my new hobby" forum. That isnt necessarily a bad thing, but it is contrary to the Concept of the professional only forum. The Amateur posts or people asking shopping questions often generate some pretty good responses and stimulate conversation. I like the idea of a Professional only forum, but it just seem unrealistic on an open forum system packed with inquiring minds.*


I have mixed emotions about it all. I have hung out here since way back when and really was rather skeptical and disappointed when so many different forums were formed. I kind of felt like all of the various factions of swords, swordsmanship, collectors, makers, Euro styled guys, Japanese styled guys, etc. were being islolated from each other and that this would be a bad thing in the long run. Kind of like if you didn't see what you liked or were not supported amongst the general population, you could always go off to "your own forum" and hang with your homies.

But as time has gone on I often get tired of having to listen to the katana bashing, or the silly ninjato question (for the ten *ThOuSaNdThS* time) and realize that if we are going to communicate properly we need to listen more and talk and post less. I agree that a wider audience inspires more careful thought and stimulates creative process. Time will tell if this forum does for us (and me) what I hope it will. Until we have had time to see I intend to support the concept as best I can and hope that some of the guys who used to post more but got tired of being 'harrassed" by amateurs (I am basically an amateur) will congregate here and contribute some if they care to.

It's all good. I love the give and take, the arguments, the insensitivity, the volitility of conversing in public amongst peers and those who are my mentors and betters. I have a thick skin and rarely lose my cool. But I would feel better if the folks "outside" the craft would just listen and learn and try to keep the distractions at a minimum unless it is absolutley essential that they post here. But thats just my perspective and opinion. I liked the "permitted and registered poster" concept where only those approved could post but anyone could read. There is always the PM aspect and I have never run off anybody that sent me an Email with a question. I realize that the full time pros can't take that time but I take the less experienced among us very seriously and would never really want to exclude anyone who is trying to learn/contribute.

Just my rambling thoughts. Good luck to all.

Brian

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## Brian VanSpeybroeck

> _Originally posted by JohnD_ 
> *
> 
> First off, Thank you Adrian and Dennis for making this happen. Your efforts are greatly appreciated. 
> 
> I agree with you Brian about your concerns about interference from folks *not* directly involved with the craft. However, we're just starting out so we'll see how it goes. 
> 
> Cool blade dude! Looks strong, mean and ready for businness. Look forward to seeing it completed Care to share more details about the blade and how you plan on mounting it?
> 
> ...


That wak is an austempered 5160 blade and I just got it back from Joe Walters who did an excellent job on the heat treat. Nice guy, he indulged my every wish on the heat treat recipe. Here are the stats if'n you are interested, John.



I will not be able to finish polish it until after the first of the year but I have cleaned it up and test cut with it. The blade is through and through bainite about Rc56 and it is tough as hell. No hamon, no hada. Cuts real good though. It is my intention to make these blades and mount them in my own weird way that is semi traditional but looks traditional. Wood tsuka core, wrapped tsuka, hybrid polish and my 5 peice sayas with epoxy finish and same' wrapped mouths. The pictures are of a 220 grit foundation before heat treat. They pick up very little scale and finishing at 220 makes 'em easy to finish after they are hardened.

I'm callin' em HyperKats....even though this one is a HyperWak, I guess.  :Big Grin:   This particular blade was the first one I ever ground freehand. No jigs or planning, no layout. I just grabbed a peice of steel and let it become what it wanted to in my hands. I'm really happy but the next one is already started (A katana) and it will be better in terms of geometry and profile I'm hopin'.

Later,
Brian

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## Dennis Boas

Sorry for the confusion, we will be restricting posting privileges on this forum. Everyone will be able to view the forum but only industry professionals will be able to post. 

So if you want posting privileges let me know.

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## Patrick Hastings

> _Originally posted by Brian VanSpeybroeck_ 
> *
> 
> I have mixed emotions about it all. I have hung out here since way back when and really was rather skeptical and disappointed when so many different forums were formed. I kind of felt like all of the various factions of swords, swordsmanship, collectors, makers, Euro styled guys, Japanese styled guys, etc. were being islolated from each other and that this would be a bad thing in the long run. Kind of like if you didn't see what you liked or were not supported amongst the general population, you could always go off to "your own forum" and hang with your homies.
> 
> But as time has gone on I often get tired of having to listen to the katana bashing, or the silly ninjato question (for the ten *ThOuSaNdThS* time) and realize that if we are going to communicate properly we need to listen more and talk and post less. I agree that a wider audience inspires more careful thought and stimulates creative process. Time will tell if this forum does for us (and me) what I hope it will. Until we have had time to see I intend to support the concept as best I can and hope that some of the guys who used to post more but got tired of being 'harrassed" by amateurs (I am basically an amateur) will congregate here and contribute some if they care to.
> 
> It's all good. I love the give and take, the arguments, the insensitivity, the volitility of conversing in public amongst peers and those who are my mentors and betters. I have a thick skin and rarely lose my cool. But I would feel better if the folks "outside" the craft would just listen and learn and try to keep the distractions at a minimum unless it is absolutley essential that they post here. But thats just my perspective and opinion. I liked the "permitted and registered poster" concept where only those approved could post but anyone could read. There is always the PM aspect and I have never run off anybody that sent me an Email with a question. I realize that the full time pros can't take that time but I take the less experienced among us very seriously and would never really want to exclude anyone who is trying to learn/contribute.
> 
> ...



I think the topic of this forum is great and I will participate with joy.  The professional only policy just seems pointless without some sort of restricted software to keep the "How do I temper my Titanium Nijato in my apartment oven" threads from growing into permanent monsters before a moderator can remove it.

 Edited to include...
  Dennis you have made yet another rapid post making my reply redundant once agian. I have to start typing faster :Smilie:

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## JohnD

> _Originally posted by Patrick Hastings_ 
> *
> 
> 
> I think the topic of this forum is great and I will participate with joy.  The professional only policy just seems pointless without some sort of restricted software to keep the "How do I temper my Titanium Nijato in my apartment oven" threads from growing into permanent monsters before a moderator can remove it.
> 
>  Edited to include...
>   Dennis you have made yet another rapid post making my reply redundant once agian. I have to start typing faster*


Tell me about it. He already made corrections on the descriptions that we talked about. Thanks again for the quick response to our request Dennis :Smilie:

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## Bjorn A.

You'll have to excuse a layman for making his first and only post on this forum but I just want to wish you good luck with your discussions and I am sure it will be an interesting read.

I'm glad they will restrict posting. Although I have never really posted on the bladesmith forum I read through the posts and I do not like the direction they are heading.

Enjoy your forum guys!

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## Don Halter

Having just started branching into the realm of japanese style blademaking, I think this will be a great addition to the forums...I'm looking forward to lurking and learning.

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## Jess Seiffert

As the moderator , what will be your criteria for a professional Japanese-style sword maker? One sword, a hundred? For your own use or must you be making your living selling swords? Blademakers only or maybe only rewrapping tsuka  for friends?I think I understand where this idea started but will an elitist stance allow for growth? What seems like "stupid questions" to gentlemen in a unique industry are the seeds to hobbyists who haven't had access to more complicated  questions they run across in their apprenticeship. My interest lies in applied knowledge, am I to be excluded from a key source? Jess

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## Dennis Boas

I have modified the Establishing posting privileges thread to better define the term professional.

In reference to this forum Professional means "Anyone in the business / profession of crafting Japanese style swords, who offers their services to the public and derives income from the crafting of Japanese swords.

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## Dave K

Some of  this "professionals only" stuff makes me nervous.

It seems to me to be a bit more elitist than absolutely necesary.

-Dave

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## Patrick Hastings

> _Originally posted by Dave K_ 
> *Some of  this "professionals only" stuff makes me nervous.
> 
> It seems to me to be a bit more elitist than absolutely necesary.
> 
> -Dave*



Elitist?
  I dont think thats accurate.  The idea of being professional for the café is not a new policy and no has really complained about for years. The policy is difficult to enforce and the Café has degenerated to a how do I get started forum There is nothing wrong with those questions, but its not the intension of that forum since it was transferred to SFI. Now there is a new forum using the same policy, so what.

    I think there maybe a need for some type of separation. The café used to have dozens of big names posting at length about in-depth topics. That resulted IMO  a progression of the field as a whole(part of the purpose of this entire site). Right now the café is basically a bring every one up to speed forum. With questions that can be researched rather easily by anyone that is motivated. If your absolutely stuck I can understand asking basic questions now and again, but please, people get on here and want an entire manual from A to Z. Its very tiring to answer them all and if you dont newbies jump in and give potentially misleading info. The result is many people would rather move on rather than watch misinformation or try to communicate the same concepts over and over. Then all of us get less info to read. 

There are always a few die-hard makers that hang out and try to keep up with questions, but if the newbie chatter is cut out we have the potential to keep more makers interested and posting. I personally would rather read  dozens of professionals posting to each other than two or three pros answering basic questions that any motivated person could have answered themselves. 
   Why is it so terrible to have a forum just for people in the business to communicate and help each other without being bombarded by novice questions? 

   Beside you can always post on the general forum where most everybody tends to read and answer.  Instead of poo pooing the new forum or using the gen forum why dont you ask for a Basic Hobby maker Forum where anybody can post? I would do my best to Help in such a forum. Im also not totally opposed to keeping this forum open, but I do see some potential benefits for all by restricting access to people whose products are their lively hood. Lets at least give it a try and see it pans out. If it doesnt gather and keep more Professionals in the whole forum system it can always be changed right? Is this the best way to deal with it? Hell I dont know, but Im willing to give it a try. 

     I dont think this policy is here to be elitist Its here to address the problem of the professionals being driven away or forced into lurk mode where they will not answer questions anymore. That doesnt help anyone IMO.

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## Joseph Renner

> _Originally posted by Dave K_ 
> *Some of  this "professionals only" stuff makes me nervous.
> 
> It seems to me to be a bit more elitist than absolutely necesary.
> 
> -Dave*


This is really beyond me. Were not putting up a "professionals only" sign, you can look you can read, there is no secret society everyone is missing out on. Pros in this buisness arent elite. When we go to bladeshows we talk with any and everyone whos curious,.  has anyone absolutely refused to speak with you because your not a pro. Nope. In this place we wont have "what are you talking about" posts inbetween real discussions(that discourages people), when the questions could easily be asked and answered elsewhere.  
The posts when it was more strictly pros(in the past) were very in-depth and educational to read, even when I wasnt a pro. Things often get off topic when simple questions are thrown out, which keep the topics from actually getting in-depth.

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## JohnD

> _Originally posted by Patrick Hastings_ 
> *
> 
> 
> Elitist?
>   I dont think thats accurate.  The idea of being professional for the café is not a new policy and no has really complained about for years. The policy is difficult to enforce and the Café has degenerated to a how do I get started forum There is nothing wrong with those questions, but its not the intension of that forum since it was transferred to SFI. Now there is a new forum using the same policy, so what.
> 
>     I think there maybe a need for some type of separation. The café used to have dozens of big names posting at length about in-depth topics. That resulted IMO  a progression of the field as a whole(part of the purpose of this entire site). Right now the café is basically a bring every one up to speed forum. With questions that can be researched rather easily by anyone that is motivated. If your absolutely stuck I can understand asking basic questions now and again, but please, people get on here and want an entire manual from A to Z. Its very tiring to answer them all and if you dont newbies jump in and give potentially misleading info. The result is many people would rather move on rather than watch misinformation or try to communicate the same concepts over and over. Then all of us get less info to read. 
> 
> ...


I aggree with you 100%. Everything that you said plus, I'm getting tired of seeing good post being burried with a bunch of other none related threads. I don't see a problem with having a seperate forum where we could hang out to get away from all the chaos of other forums becuase of too much overlapping threads. 

The only problem that I see here is with people that are selfish and have nothing to contribute in the fist place. People that won't even take the time to read and understand the description of what this forum is for. Sometimes even the same poeple that give out misleading information, causes chaos on other forums. That's why I'm all for posting privilages. I think it will give more us a little more room to breathe don't you think?

I'm rambling, I going to get some coke (soda) and chill for a bit :Smilie:

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## Robert S. Mullin

Okay, so if this Forum was created so that craftsmen wouldn't have to sift through all the newbie questions on the General Forum, who will answer those questions over there now?  To suggest that the people here will continue to answer the questions over there sounds improbable to me--after all, the craftsmen are trying to get away from that stuff.

If we use the Bladesmith Cafe as an example, it always looked to me that the reason it became swamped with newbie questions is because few of the truly experienced smiths were willing answer those questions on the General Forum on a regular basis.

Like Patrick, I'm somewhat torn over the nature of this forum.  On the one hand, I really like the idea of a place where craftsmen can come together and talk shop.  But on the other hand, newbie and/or wannabe craftsmen are stuck with the General Forum where their questions may are may not be answered.  And even if their questions are answered, the information's accuracy may be questionable if the folks here don't participate over there (which is quite possible, based on the aforementioned Bladesmith Cafe example, as well as conversations with some of the folks who wanted this forum to begin with).

Hopefully, an acceptable middle ground can be achieved.

-Robert

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## Brian VanSpeybroeck

> _Originally posted by Robert S. Mullin_ 
> *Okay, so if this Forum was created so that craftsmen wouldn't have to sift through all the newbie questions on the General Forum, who will answer those questions over there now?  To suggest that the people here will continue to answer the questions over there sounds improbable to me--after all, the craftsmen are trying to get away from that stuff.
> 
> If we use the Bladesmith Cafe as an example, it always looked to me that the reason it became swamped with newbie questions is because few of the truly experienced smiths were willing answer those questions on the General Forum on a regular basis.
> 
> Like Patrick, I'm somewhat torn over the nature of this forum.  On the one hand, I really like the idea of a place where craftsmen can come together and talk shop.  But on the other hand, newbie and/or wannabe craftsmen are stuck with the General Forum where their questions may are may not be answered.  And even if their questions are answered, the information's accuracy may be questionable if the folks here don't participate over there (which is quite possible, based on the aforementioned Bladesmith Cafe example, as well as conversations with some of the folks who wanted this forum to begin with).
> 
> Hopefully, an acceptable middle ground can be achieved.
> 
> -Robert*


FWIW, I think the questions that the newbies have always get aswered or have already been answered and are there if they just spend a little time looking around for them. I don't think that they will sit there with unanswered questions anymore, they will come over here and be forced to sit quietly and read and learn while keeping quiet. In swordsmanship it is said that "watching is learning as well as doing" and I learned a lot by keeping to myself and listening instead of talking or asking. Simple observance can be a great teacher and I think it is a bad idea to let every one who wanders through "have his say" as this does not represent the real world.

I also think it is really important for people to "cross train" so that the whole concept of having one's own style and place does not become incestuous...if that is a word! I have never thought is was a good idea to make so many forums that allow folks to hide amongst their own kind and, in so doing, gain a sense that "this is the forum where all of the *right* thinking people are" and then cease to cruise or participate on other forums. If I had my way we would all be thrust together in one big heap and allowed to sort it out by popular opinion who is right and who is wrong. But that is not to be. I have always thought it was bad to let the euro guys hide over there, and the Japanese style guys to hide over here, and the newbies hang somewhere else while the smiths and crafters stay to their own in a completely different place. Tolerance can be (should be) learned even if it has to be forced.

I intend to continue to participate on the general forum and, when I have something to contribute, on the blade smiths forum. I have always returned any email or private message that I get and I encourage people who have questions that they are not getting answers to to send me a PM and ask if they think I can help. And I strongly encourage those other craftsmen who have the time to do the same. Making this forum seem exclusive or snooty to the general population of the forums won't help anybody. People *without* a vast amount of experience in Japanese style crafting have questions about how things can be done and I think that their opinions and ideas are valid and that they should express them.....on the general forum. They are completely welcome to read about anything that happens on the Japanese style sword crafters forum but they are not free to interject their opinions on *my* time. And that makes me a little sad but it will definitely help me converse with like minded, experienced craftsmen with a minimum amount of interference from the guys who just want to outfit a $180 blade with $20 hardware and have you and I tell them how to do it, in detail, on our time....which is very limited for all of us. I don't make my living at this but I do invest virtually all of my personal time at sword crafting. And as cruel or insensitive as this sounds ( I can't believe I feel this way) I just don't have time or the inclination to sort through questions about how a guy can "find sword fittings for under $20" or "dress up a Chen PK without exceeding the price of the sword" and all. The thing that bugs me is that there are a dozen better ways to get this kind of information than to show up on the blade smiths cafe' ,or now on the crafters cafe', and start blazing away with questions that have been answered 35 times already last week . Read a book for goodness sakes! Do a little research and excercise some persistence. Excercise your mind and spirit.

A good start, in my opinion, toward middle ground would be to try and participate as much as possible on the general forum when newbies have questions and opinions. Kind of a way of giving something back to the forum for the opportunity to have our own space. I didn't ask for our own forum and I'm curious to see how it will all work out in the long run. Since the opportunity has presented itself I think it would be bad Karma not to let the concept run it's course by supporting it as well as I can.

And I respect those with differing opinions.

Brian

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## Dave K

Well, it will be interesting to see how this thing progresses.

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