# Communities > Modern-era Swords and Collecting Community > Modern Production Katanas >  Recomendations on good Iaito for long duration practices

## mark p. smith

I have looked thru the threads and while there is a lot of discussions on Iaito's I am looking for opinions on what type of Iaito I would get for continual practice of aikido sword katas and iaido itself. I want something that has the correct balance of a proper sword (6" from the Tsuba is the closest to perfect that I've seen written) but not made of cheap metal or parts. It can be made of the same metal as a Shinken but I want the all the parts and the saya to be durable enough to handle the practice. I don't want to turn around in a month and find that the handle pieces are loose or splitting or the saya is splitting from overuse. 
Actually I was looking at the Practical Plus Iaito. 
Any opinions?

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## Bogdan M.

Well, apparently the Practical Plus iaito has a POB around 5". What is also important is what is the weight of the iaito that you want? More towards a shinken or a training tool for long repetitive sessions?

Anyway, if you want a iaito to use for a long time, IMO you'd better look into japanese made iaito. PC iaito have a history of failing tsukamaki, after a few training sessions or a few months. Maybe the situation has improved somehow, but I doubt it has for the cheapest ones...

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## Andrew Shultz

Tozando.  It will take you a while to get, but they stand up to a lot of use.

Don't get a steel iaito, you'll just pay more for a blade you will have to put more maintainance into but can't cut with anyway.  For real long repeated use, you want something that has high quality fittings.

And also for long practices for a newer practicioner you wants something a little lighter so you don't wreck your joints.  You can buy something heavier later when you've got more experience.  Again, an alloy iaito is your friend here.

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## J. Ottaway

Mr Smith, 

I have a brand new Tozando Iaito that I can sell to you for a good price.
Here's the link to the sword I am offering:

http://www.tozandoshop.com/product_p/nt_106.htm

Send me a PM if you're interested.

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## Chris Fields

Here is what I did, don't know if you would be interested in going this route, but it's an option:

I didn't want a stainless or cheap steel iaito, I actually wanted one alittle on the heavy side so that the real sword would feel lighter when I moved to it. Well,... never found one. So, I took a practical XL light, and dulled it down to an exceptable level. It has a good weight and balance, and when I move to doing cutts, I can just resharpen it. Being a PC performace series blade, resharpening it actually gives it a better edge geometry then it had for harder targets like bamboo and such.

"edit" - just realized you are pretty close to me, I am over in Tampa if you need any help with dulling or resharpening. =)

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## Brian Pettett

Mark, have you joined a dojo yet?  What does your sensei say?  Most have specific brands that they recommend, and for good reason.  




> I want something that has the correct balance of a proper sword (6" from the Tsuba is the closest to perfect that I've seen written)


Do not rely solely on figures you find online; they can tell you nothing without a frame of reference that you don't currently have.  FWIW, I have had two iaito over the last four years, and I couldn't tell you what the POB is.  They both have handled excellently, though.

Fact is, you will adjust to what you train with.  And when the day comes for you to move to shinken, you will have to adjust again in so many different areas anyways; the balance point will be relatively inconsequential.  So just join a reputable dojo, and buy what they tell you to.

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## Timo Qvintus

Are you going to have blade-to-blade contact? What kind of iaito do others in your dojo use?

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## mark p. smith

> Here is what I did, don't know if you would be interested in going this route, but it's an option:
> 
> I didn't want a stainless or cheap steel iaito, I actually wanted one alittle on the heavy side so that the real sword would feel lighter when I moved to it. Well,... never found one. So, I took a practical XL light, and dulled it down to an exceptable level. It has a good weight and balance, and when I move to doing cutts, I can just resharpen it. Being a PC performace series blade, resharpening it actually gives it a better edge geometry then it had for harder targets like bamboo and such.
> 
> "edit" - just realized you are pretty close to me, I am over in Tampa if you need any help with dulling or resharpening. =)


Thanks for the offer. Where do you practice?

BTW...How does the Practical and the saya hold up overall for you in constant use? I don't want whatever I get to start coming loose and falling apart in my hands in 3 or 4 months of constant use.

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## mark p. smith

> Mr Smith, 
> 
> I have a brand new Tozando Iaito that I can sell to you for a good price.
> Here's the link to the sword I am offering:
> 
> http://www.tozandoshop.com/product_p/nt_106.htm
> 
> Send me a PM if you're interested.


Considering your location it's probably going to cost me as much to ship it as it is buy it from you. 
The web page link you sent me doesn't show the blade. Can you send me some up to date pictures of the one you own?

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## mark p. smith

> Are you going to have blade-to-blade contact? What kind of iaito do others in your dojo use?


At this time I don't forsee any blade to blade contact any time in the near future. The swords vary greatly with the other guys.

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## Chris Fields

The Practical XL has held up very well. Remember it is designed to be a practical cutting sword, so it is built well.

I actually teach Kung Fu here in tampa at

www.royalkungfu.com

but I am training in japanese swordsmanship over in St Pete:

http://www.nihonzashi.com/

Feel free to come by some time.

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## J. Ottaway

> Considering your location it's probably going to cost me as much to ship it as it is buy it from you. 
> The web page link you sent me doesn't show the blade. Can you send me some up to date pictures of the one you own?


PM sent to you.

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## mark p. smith

> The Practical XL has held up very well. Remember it is designed to be a practical cutting sword, so it is built well.
> 
> I actually teach Kung Fu here in tampa at
> 
> www.royalkungfu.com
> 
> but I am training in japanese swordsmanship over in St Pete:
> 
> http://www.nihonzashi.com/
> ...


Do you use the Practical XL for sword training other than just cutting?
Do you notice the extra weight when using the XL in katas?

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## mark p. smith

any body have an opinion on the quality of this Iaito form Chenesse Cutlery:

http://sbg-sword-store.sword-buyers-...lux-iaito.html

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## Bogdan M.

Just do a search with the terms *cheness* and *tsuka* on SFI  :Wink:

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## J. Ottaway

> any body have an opinion on the quality of this Iaito form Chenesse Cutlery:
> 
> http://sbg-sword-store.sword-buyers-...lux-iaito.html


A man at the dojo where I train has a Cheness iaito and there was a problem with the tsuka ito coming undone and also it has rusted since it's carbon steel and not alloy like the Japanese made iaitos.

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## mark p. smith

> A man at the dojo where I train has a Cheness iaito and there was a problem with the tsuka ito coming undone and also it has rusted since it's carbon steel and not alloy like the Japanese made iaitos.


It shouldn't be a problem as long as you keep it in a dry place and wiped down after each use. I have carbon steel hunting and survival knives that I use regularly and then keep stored for months.

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## Bogdan M.

The problem with cheness tsuka is that they are one size fits all and fitted tight and with a lot of force on the nakago, therefore most of them are cracked. Cheness = nice cheap blades with awful tsukas. If you can afford to have a new tsuka made than it will be good iaito. Otherwise it's very risky.

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## Chris Fields

> Do you use the Practical XL for sword training other than just cutting?
> Do you notice the extra weight when using the XL in katas?


Yes, I love the extra weight, although not much. I come from a european and chinese martial arts background, where I trained with much heavier pieces over time before picking up the real swords, and it helps alot. So, I wanted to do the same in Japanese swordsmanship. Honestly, if I could find a heavier Iaito than the practical XL Light (you have to have the groove), I would use it. But they just are not out there.

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## mark p. smith

> Yes, I love the extra weight, although not much. I come from a european and chinese martial arts background, where I trained with much heavier pieces over time before picking up the real swords, and it helps alot. So, I wanted to do the same in Japanese swordsmanship. Honestly, if I could find a heavier Iaito than the practical XL Light (you have to have the groove), I would use it. But they just are not out there.


Chris;
Do you use the XL Light to get the audible feedback in Iaido?
Do you get the same audible feedback using the XL Light in training that you would from a standard iaito?
I hate to lose a deal like this on a practical plus but right now I have to go with what's best for me. It's going to be months before I actually am using a shinken.

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## Chris Fields

Yes, it has excellent audible feed back.  :Big Grin:

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## Steffen Gjerding

Mark not to burst in to this topic late, but I just wonder why you don’t want a Japanese made iaito? Remember that you then don’t pay too much for the blade that you won’t cut with but you are paying for good fittings. Witch in fact sounds like exactly the thing you are looking for.

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## mark p. smith

> Mark not to burst in to this topic late, but I just wonder why you dont want a Japanese made iaito? Remember that you then dont pay too much for the blade that you wont cut with but you are paying for good fittings. Witch in fact sounds like exactly the thing you are looking for.


Can you post a couple of links for me to give some examples of what you are referencing? I always thought they where really expensive.

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## Steffen Gjerding

http://www.swordstore.com/cgi-bin/ht...001A-main.html

http://www.tozandoshop.com/category_s/40.htm

Just to sum up just a few of them. A ton of others, just search here on sfi for them.


A site to recalculate yen to whatever... 
www.bokkenshop.com

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## Bogdan M.

Even cheaper ones, but still god quality:
http://japanesesword.net/eng/index.html
http://www.samurai-store.com/sword/
http://www.gichudo.com

The last 2 sell on ebay too.

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## Bogdan M.

double post

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## Chris Fields

I can't see buying two swords and spending more in the long run over buying one sword, and dulling it for iaito and sharpening it when it comes time to cut.

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## mark p. smith

Which Tsuka wrap holds up better over time and lots of use, the cotton or leather?

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## mark p. smith

> I can't see buying two swords and spending more in the long run over buying one sword, and dulling it for iaito and sharpening it when it comes time to cut.


Hi Chris;
Economically I agree with you and I have been thinking about this all weekend because I want to get something going and hate to lose out on such a good deal on the PP XL.
Are you doing all your katas with a shinken now or are you still using the XL light with the dulled edge?

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## Steffen Gjerding

Just a personal preference Chris. It was just a question towards Mark. It looks like he is very unsure about what he wants and he has asked a lot of questions about different swords but none of them where Japanese iaitos. So had to make sure he knew they were out there. 
And of course if the school do test cutting, I can se the savings in it.
And on thing is that a heavy sword to start with might be a lot harder to do the techniques correct compared to a lighter weapon. Remember a fellow student of me bought a really heavy bokken to do kenjutsu work and after a while his wrist started to make some pretty nasty sounds. So he figured to by something lighter. But again I have no idea of how heavy or light the tori xl light is.

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## Bogdan M.

I think he should ask his sensei about the weight of the iaito, not us...

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## Chris Fields

good points. 

I am still using mine still dull, though I have resharpened another Practical for another person already who is cutting with it. 

From my experience, cotton and leather will hold the same as long as it was built right. It all depends on what you think is more comfortable. Check the wrappings, make sure you can not slide any of the sections of the wrap. If you can, the wrapping was applied tight enough.

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## PatrickA

> I can't see buying two swords and spending more in the long run over buying one sword, and dulling it for iaito and sharpening it when it comes time to cut.


Because in some dojo, you cut regularly, but cannot use sharp swords in class for kata due to the safety factor.

Frankly, a lot of iaidoka use aluminum-zinc iaito until higher dan levels. Our school, everyone uses a non-steel iaito for kata and a shinken for cutting.

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## mark p. smith

> Because in some dojo, you cut regularly, but cannot use sharp swords in class for kata due to the safety factor.
> 
> Frankly, a lot of iaidoka use aluminum-zinc iaito until higher dan levels. Our school, everyone uses a non-steel iaito for kata and a shinken for cutting.


What is the advantage of the aluminum-zinc iaito over the carbon steel? Is it lighter or more corosion resistant?

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## mark p. smith

I am also noticing that most of the Practical and Practical Plus Iaitos are about 30% lighter than their cutting counterparts. This must be for a reason. Maybe the fighting sword of old which is what an Iaito is supposed to represent in practice was much lighter. The cutting swords are only heavier for their specific purpose. Does anybody have any history with antique japanese swords to know if the is true or not?

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## PatrickA

> What is the advantage of the aluminum-zinc iaito over the carbon steel? Is it lighter or more corosion resistant?


Yes and yes.

These have been recommended to you already. (www.tozando.com www.swordstore.com) They are made in Japan and you're really paying for fittings. (The blade is cheap, but made in the shape of a katana, usually with bo-hi for good sound.  :Smilie:  The fittings start at "reasonable" and move to "my god, this is expensive." ) Its lighter than most carbon steel katana, which although some people do not like, I prefer for heavy use and long practices. Its completely corrosion proof.

They are traditionally used for kata by a number of koryu iaido schools, at least until a certain dan ranking.

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## MattRomaschin

well the zinc-alluminum blades don't rust so they are quite easy to care for. I just oil the blade after every practice. As for being lighter than a shinken, you can get iaito that are very close to the weight of a shinken.  I use a dotanuki iaito that has a heavy blade, never had a problem with it feeling too light.  I would highly recommend a japanese made iaito to start with.  Just make sure you know what dimensions you need, length etc, this will depend on the school you study with.  I would also recommend taking your time and looking around, find the right sword for you, it will save you having to buy something else sooner than necessary.

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## Chris Fields

Well, you have alot of options! Yes, definitly check with you school, and see what they would like you to do. Again, I use a heavier Iaito because it trains not only technique, but also builds the correct muscles needed for those techniques. When moving to cutting, I will not need to adjust to a new sword, nor be surprised by a heavier sword.

As far as I have seen, most historical swords are closer to the cutting swords, not the iaitos. The Iaitos have been lightened up alot so that people can move faster and more controlled through their katas. I believe this gives you a false sense of security, because the real sword will be heavier. 

This is how I have trained in the different chinese and european sword arts as well.

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## Bogdan M.

> As far as I have seen, most historical swords are closer to the cutting swords, not the iaitos. The Iaitos have been lightened up alot so that people can move faster and more controlled through their katas. I believe this gives you a false sense of security, because the real sword will be heavier.


No Chris, the reason iaitos are lighter is because you usually make a lot of repetitive training with them. It's fun making 10 cuts with force, but when you make 100 cuts for each type of cut you begin to understand why they are lighter and with a friendlier balance. A heavy iaito for a beginner may not only mean tendinitis or sprains, but also learning bad technique. Somebody like Dave Drawdy should step in and talk from teacher's experience. I am a pretty athletic guy, at 6'2" and 90 kg, muay thai trainer, I also bought a dotanuki (heavy for a iaito but light for a shinken, 1090 grams, POB 6") and I can tell you when doing repetitive moves in force it "kills" me quite rapidly. I like it, but it's really pushing me hard. This is why you should really ask your sensei about the weight and balance of your iaito.

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## Andrew Shultz

> No Chris, the reason iaitos are lighter is because you usually make a lot of repetitive training with them. It's fun making 10 cuts with force, but when you make 100 cuts for each type of cut you begin to understand why they are lighter and with a friendlier balance. A heavy iaito for a beginner may not only mean tendinitis or sprains, but also learning bad technique.


Not just a beginner.  A guy in my dojo had his iaito snap during travel (needed better padding in his golf bag!) and is practicing with a shinken he has.  At "real sword" weight he is slowly giving himself elbow problems, he is really looking forward to his new iaito's arrival.

And this is no beginner and not a lightweight either, he's been doing iaido for years and works out as well.

So I really have to echo this warning.  To become good at iaido you will have to put in a very very large number of repetitions of the basic movements.  Don't go all macho and destroy your elbow.

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## Chris Fields

I apologize, but the last two post reiterate what I was talking about. Working with a heavier weight Iaito from the beginning trains your body to get used to a proper weighted sword. Training with a lighter blade will cause you to develope technique for a lighter blade. When it comes time to move to a heavier blade, the same technique will possibly not work. This will cause the problems both of you speak of. The opposite is not true. However, this takes long periods of time, just like any weight training does. Training with a heavier blade is always better to get you used to a real sword. Now, you have to becareful not to get one thats too heavy though. 

If someone is developing problems in there joints, they are probably doing a bad technique, or abusing their joints in some other way.

Think about how people trained historically, they went from wood to metal at a young age, and the metal swords were the same weight, and some even heavier, than the real swords. They didn't have aluminum alloys in the 1500-1600s. 

Again, I have trained this way in multiple other sword styles. Starting with Chinese Dao, and then some european work from arming swords to rapiers.

It's not about being macho, it's about training the best you can. Think about training in ANY OTHER sport. If you want to run a 10K marathon, you don't practice running a 5k and expect to able to do your best a running the full 10k. You instead practice running a 20K to prepare for your 10K marathon. If you want to last in 10 round kick boxing match, you don't train for 5 rounds, you train for 20. If you want to throw a shot put further than anyone else, you don't practice with a lighter shot put, you practice with a heavier one. etc...

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## Steffen Gjerding

If you want to be able to lift 50 kg ten times at the gym, would you start with a hundred?  
Anyway as Bogdan said he would be listening to his sensei, and not us.

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## Jay Requard

> I apologize, but the last two post reiterate what I was talking about. Working with a heavier weight Iaito from the beginning trains your body to get used to a proper weighted sword. Training with a lighter blade will cause you to develope technique for a lighter blade. When it comes time to move to a heavier blade, the same technique will possibly not work. This will cause the problems both of you speak of. The opposite is not true. However, this takes long periods of time, just like any weight training does. Training with a heavier blade is always better to get you used to a real sword. Now, you have to becareful not to get one thats too heavy though. 
> 
> If someone is developing problems in there joints, they are probably doing a bad technique, or abusing their joints in some other way.
> 
> Think about how people trained historically, they went from wood to metal at a young age, and the metal swords were the same weight, and some even heavier, than the real swords. They didn't have aluminum alloys in the 1500-1600s. 
> 
> Again, I have trained this way in multiple other sword styles. Starting with Chinese Dao, and then some european work from arming swords to rapiers.
> 
> It's not about being macho, it's about training the best you can. Think about training in ANY OTHER sport. If you want to run a 10K marathon, you don't practice running a 5k and expect to able to do your best a running the full 10k. You instead practice running a 20K to prepare for your 10K marathon. If you want to last in 10 round kick boxing match, you don't train for 5 rounds, you train for 20. If you want to throw a shot put further than anyone else, you don't practice with a lighter shot put, you practice with a heavier one. etc...


True, but there is a risk of over-training, especially in Muay Thai and MMA. if you practice 20 rounds, you will get beaten up just in practice alone(Ask my striking coach!!!) (especially if your instructor really stresses knees in the clinch during sparring!). Like or not, most people who are involved in combat sports most of the time live with injury day in and day out. I think in something like JSA, technique cannot be honed by making your arms stronger. That only mean the sword feels lighter, not that your technique is better. Sometimes, making it harder is not helping, it is harming.

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## A. Ko

I've handled a variety of Chinese-made steel katanas and the handling of cheaper swords are, well, adequate (I suppose).  The more expensive ones ($1,200 range) handle better than their $300 counterparts.

I've not handled their Iaito.

However, I've handled stuff from Tozando and Nosyuiaido, (the "Steel Iaito" as well as regular zamac/zinc-aluminum alloy iaito) and the handling is absolutely wonderful.

I'd encourage you to handle the iaito of both and do a comparison.

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## Bogdan M.

> Think about how people trained historically, they went from wood to metal at a young age, and the metal swords were the same weight, and some even heavier, than the real swords. They didn't have aluminum alloys in the 1500-1600s.


They trained with bokken  :Wink: . Normal bokken for repetitive training and suburi bokken for building up force. Not suburi bokken all the time, though.

You may have trained like this, I'm glad it works for you. However, tendinitis can come easily with repetitive movements, and it's not about weight. I know many IT people that have developped tendinitis because of mouse clicking.

I really think the training should be realistical as possible. But if you think that a beginner should start with a 1200g shinken with a 6" POB, well, you'll get bad technique and a long bill for physiotherapy. Every sport and martial art is about progression. You start light and then go on as your body gets stronger and your technique and control gets better. The same is true about iaido. Just because you had years of training before going to iaido it doesn't mean that the average beginner's body will take up the abuse as well.

The idea in iaido is to learn how to wield a shinken. However, this will come after some years of training. Until then, a iaito is good, that's why there are thousands of Japanese practitioners using them  :Wink:  They work well.

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## Mat Rous

Comparing Japanese made Iaito to Chinese made ones is false economy - the Japanese ones are simply light years ahead in balance. That is the key. 

Also, if you want to go to Japan to study, you cannot take your steel iaito with you.

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## Chris Fields

> If you want to be able to lift 50 kg ten times at the gym, would you start with a hundred? 
> Anyway as Bogdan said he would be listening to his sensei, and not us.


Not right away, but you build up to lifting much more than 50Kg.

Everyone trains a little differently. A real steel iaito, like a dulled practical XL light, is only slightly more heavier than an other more commonly used Iaito, but yet it is a real sword weight. It's not so much heavier that you would have to build up to it. So why not use it if it's closer, if not exact to sword you are cutting with? Again, I believe training with lighter swords gives you a false sense of control and strenght. I have stage combat guys train with me all the time, and they want to get their stage routines down faster. So, I hand them a heavier sword to run through their routines for alittle bit. When they pick up there original stage swords, they are always surprised how lighter they feel because they got used to the heavy sword, and how much faster they can now move.  But to each their own.   :Smilie:

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## Steffen Gjerding

So Mark, decided yet. :Stick Out Tongue: A funny thing that happens a lot here is that some person asks a question and suddenly he sees a bunch of people with two opinions each discuss between each other. 

But to get back to of topic… ah forget it. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## mark p. smith

No actually I love when a topic get this much input. Just when you thought you had your mind made up it leaves you with this look:  :EEK!: 
Like OMG what do I do now. As long as it doesn't turn into a flame and everybody respects each others right to have input I could read thru these all day. As the saying goes you learn more thru experience and I find the experience of others a most valuable tool.  :Big Grin:

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## Dave Drawdy

come on guys, iaito come in a range of weights, just as shinken do. iaito does not automatically mean lighter.  The Chen Nami is ridiculously light.  Try and avoid preconceptions.  
Mark, as others have said, you would be better off with a Japanese made iaito. The balance and fittings will be better and it will last longer.  The weight is less important than balance and length.  Ignore the BS about training with a heavy blade.  it is more important to learn what you are doing correctly than to build muscles for some imagined future need.  the strength you need will come with practice.  no need to rush.  train with what your sensei tells you to use.  

Dave

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## Chris Fields

Training with a heavier sword is not BS. Also just because an Iaito is made in Japan, doesn't make it better. The paul chen ones compare very well with them, and their forges are in china. Again, all I am saying is practice with a sword that is close to what you'll be cutting with. Cutting practice is not an imaginary state. 

Dave, I find that post very disrespectful. Everyone trains differently, I would not call your way of training BS. Yes, balance and length are more important, however, if you learn with a lighter blade, when you pick up a heavier blade, (with the same length and balance) it will be difficult, and you will have to relearn sword and muscle control. However, the opposite is not true.

Mark, has your Sensei given you advice as of yet? He will point you in the way he wants you go. More than likely, it will be what is most comfortable for you.

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## Andrew Shultz

I've handled the low end Paul Chen iaitos, and they don't compare very well with even low end Tozandos / Swordstores at all.  The balance was wonky and the fittings awful.  I can't speak to the high end Chen iaitos though as I've never handled them.

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## Chris Fields

I have a 28" Gorin Iaito I am borrowing from a friend. The balance and fittings are great. Even has a silver habaki. However, it's just too light for my taste.

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## Dave Drawdy

> ... Also just because an Iaito is made in Japan, doesn't make it better.


 Actually, on average, it does.  Consistently better fittings and balance.  More options for length and weight.  As several others have said here also.  


> , ... all I am saying is practice with a sword that is close to what you'll be cutting with. Cutting practice is not an imaginary state.


 nor is it something that requires a lot of strength, just correct technique and good basics. Things you get from practice and attention to detail, not from weight-lifting.  If someone's cutting requires more strength than normal forms, something is wrong.  I have new students that show up all the time with ridiculously heavy blades that they think are closer to 'real swords' after reading stuff like this.  Fifteen minutes of practice and they can barely control it. A waste of money and dojo time.  'BS' too strong?  Ok, how about 'your mileage may vary'.  Or better yet, ...



> Mark, has your Sensei given you advice as of yet? He will point you in the way he wants you go. ..


 Agreed.  

Dave

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## mark p. smith

> Mark, has your Sensei given you advice as of yet? He will point you in the way he wants you go. More than likely, it will be what is most comfortable for you.


I know I am just asking for trouble by posting this but here goes.......
I like many other people I notice in here do not have a Sensei. There, I said it.
 I am looking to start practicing some basic moves on my own until I can find a location to train. I am not interested in just doing cutting training. I want to train in more Kenjutsu ( And yes, I know using this word is a very broad discription.) styles using the japanese sword.
Chris;
So far the closest facility I have found that offers anything other than cutting classes seems to be the Nihonzashi facility in St. Pete near you. For others that might be interested here is a description of what they offer:
Orientation: An intro to the dojo, sword safety, dojo etiquette, and the bow in/out ceremonies. This class will also cover putting on the uniform and folding it properly. This class is required for all new students.  
 Kihon Keiko (Fundamentals Class): Stance, proper grip, chuburi / noto, the eight cuts, and the basic kata from the Zen Nihon Battodo Renmei (shoden seitei kata). This is for anyone working on improving and not just for beginners.  
 Kata Keiko: This class focuses on Kata and kumitachi (one and two person practice forms) needed for your specific rank. Class will break into smaller groups and be taught those kata/kumitachi targeted for your rank.  
 Kenjutsu: Blocking drills, and sparring using Action Flex foam swords and safety equipment.  
 Marui Keiko (Circular Training): Rotation of Kata, Kumitachi, and Kenjutsu. Kata are individual practice forms from Toyama Ryu and the Zen Nihon Battodo Renmei. Kumitachi are paired practice forms from Toyama Ryu. Kenjutsu involves blocking drills using Fukuro Shinai focused on learning distance, timing, strikes and blocks.  
 Tameshigiri: Cutting of tatami and bamboo targets with shinken (real swords). This class focuses on effectiveness. Targets must be reserved 2 days in advance of the class.  
 Subarito Keiko: Strength training using heavy wooden swords. Senbon Giri Keiko: Hard core one thousand cut endurance training.  
 Sword Craft: This class is dedicated to various sword craft topics such as sharpening, polishing, wrapping, saya carving, lacquering, and casting fittings. Students must pre-register and purchase any required materials.  

I was very sold on the description given for dojo attached here:
http://www.toyamaryu.org/DojoFlyer.htm

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## Steffen Gjerding

While it is ok to do some moves with the bokken on your own, know that this is not JSA. It is doing some moves with the bokken. Go to a dojo, no other way than this to start doing JSA. Well you could get a sensei to your house and learn personally but that is very unlikely.

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## mark p. smith

My intention is to check out the the St. Pete location next weekend and if it works for me it will be an every other or maybe even every weekend trip to the dojo for training all day Saturday. The rest of the time I'll be practicing what I've learned.

In the words of the immortal Burt Gummer: "Doing what I can with what I got!"

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## mark p. smith

I don't like this site.:
http://www.tozandoshop.com/category_s/100.htm
They don't show you the blades at all.

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## mark p. smith

I've heard that the Zinc-aluminum/alloy blades which the japanese iaitos are made of, does not have as rigid a blade as the carbon steel or stainless steel blades. That they have "wobble" when being swung.
Is this true?

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## K. Cantwell

> I don't like this site.:
> http://www.tozandoshop.com/category_s/100.htm
> They don't show you the blades at all.


Ironic....you picked one of the most reputable iaito companies out there.  They probably figure their reputation and the linguistic description is enough.  I used their most inexpensive model daily (never heard of or experienced this "wobble") for a few years before I gave it away as a gift to a dojomate when he moved to Hawaii.  I would imagine it is still serving him well. 

 Plus, the point of an iaito is its functionality as a training blade.  You see the furniture, know the company is reliable....aesthetics aren't the point of training.  (It is, after all, an aluminum training blade....its appearance will be...should be....pretty mundane.)

As has been said numerous times, best to cut through the analysis paralysis and get yourself a Japanese iaito.  Tozando would be an excellent choice. 

Kevin Cantwell

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## Andrew Shultz

> I've heard that the Zinc-aluminum/alloy blades which the japanese iaitos are made of, does not have as rigid a blade as the carbon steel or stainless steel blades. That they have "wobble" when being swung.
> Is this true?


In a word, no.  They're just as rigid as steel - almost surely moreso.

Wobble is usually bad form anyway.  :Wink:

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## Bogdan M.

> In a word, no.  They're just as rigid as steel - almost surely moreso.
> 
> Wobble is usually bad form anyway.


I agree.

It can come from overly cheap filmsy blades too (see 700 grams iaitos so called "for beginners").


But usually it means beginner wild swings+bad form. I can do the same thing with a steel shinken, no problem.

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## Bogdan M.

> I don't like this site.:
> http://www.tozandoshop.com/category_s/100.htm
> They don't show you the blades at all.


There's not much to see. No "true" yokote, no "real" hamon. The blades are cast and blades are identical for the same line of iaito.

Whate they're selling you is durable, quality fittings with a good mass distribution. That's what they're showing you  :Wink:

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## mark p. smith

> Ironic....you picked one of the most reputable iaito companies out there.  They probably figure their reputation and the linguistic description is enough.  I used their most inexpensive model daily (never heard of or experienced this "wobble") for a few years before I gave it away as a gift to a dojomate when he moved to Hawaii.  I would imagine it is still serving him well. 
> 
>  Plus, the point of an iaito is its functionality as a training blade.  You see the furniture, know the company is reliable....aesthetics aren't the point of training.  (It is, after all, an aluminum training blade....its appearance will be...should be....pretty mundane.)
> 
> As has been said numerous times, best to cut through the analysis paralysis and get yourself a Japanese iaito.  Tozando would be an excellent choice. 
> 
> Kevin Cantwell


O.K., going on faith I started looking at the Japanese Iaitos heavily last night. 
Hey this is fun. I spent half the night converting grams to lbs./ounces and "shaku" (actually had to look that one up on Wikpedia) to mm then to inches. 
I know you shouldn't go on the lowest end that is being sold but their next level is getting up close to the $500.00 mark. So how good are their $260-$300 Iaitos?

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## K. Cantwell

> O.K., going on faith I started looking at the Japanese Iaitos heavily last night.


I wouldn't go on faith; these companies have been providing exaclty the tool you need to serious practioners in and out of Japan for decades.  

For most students, the choice may be Tozando or Nosyuiaido, or one or another Japanese company.  These others probably don't come into play, unless there is an urgent need and the delivery time is too much. 

The "faith" is in companies like Hanwei and such, moving in on what is really as simple as getting hakama and keikogi from a reputable and known company.  (For example, Kiyota is one-stop shopping.) 

It seems that Hanwei (and others companies now offering iaito) are creating some discussion traffic here, which you won't get with a reputable Japanese iaito.  Just bring it to class for years with no real need for those "How do I fix this?" threads. 

The lower-end Tozando offerings will serve you fine as a beginning student for years.  No worries. 

Kevin Cantwell

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## Chris Fields

Come on over to the Dojo on saturday, or whenever you can. Call ahead to make sure they know you are coming. Sensei Femal will cover all the basics of the sword with you, and they have about 25 to 30 iaitos on hand that you can try out on your own. He will most likely tell you to get what feels best for you.

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## mark p. smith

I'm trying to drive out this Saturday. My wife almost s**t when I told how far I would be driving to do this (125 miles). 
Hey it's not any different than the husband that goes out at 5:00 in the morning and goes fishing all day or the wife that goes out with her girlfreind shopping and lunch most of the day.

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## Chris Fields

Wow, i didn't know you were that far. I'll be heading out to Halloween Horror nights in orlando on Friday night, so I'll be out in your area.

Again, call the Dojo, Mike or Sherry are great people and will give you good direction for training.

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## mark p. smith

> Wow, i didn't know you were that far.



Tell me about it. That's why i'm only going to be able to go a couple times a month, maybe 3 if I can squeeze it in. 
There is a listing in the Orlando yellow pages for a "Japanese Sword Classes" but everytime I call there's no answer. So St. Petes the next nearest one.

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## Chris Fields

Maybe Mike and Sherry will know someone out in orlando that can help you train.

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## Dave Drawdy

> Tell me about it. That's why i'm only going to be able to go a couple times a month, maybe 3 if I can squeeze it in. 
> There is a listing in the Orlando yellow pages for a "Japanese Sword Classes" but everytime I call there's no answer. So St. Petes the next nearest one.


 so did you not talk to Bob Elder-sensei?  ECMAS?  He is in Orlando.

Dave

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## mark p. smith

> so did you not talk to Bob Elder-sensei?  ECMAS?  He is in Orlando.
> 
> Dave


Yes I did and I attended one of his classes. His classes deal strictly with Tameshigiri and battojutsu. While I found it very interesting and would like to add it to my training (This is something I would like to do at nights after work) my real desires deffinately lean more in the kenjutsu area which is what the Nihonzashi dojo gears around. They do the tameshigiri as well but a whole bunch more as I have shown in some previous post to this thread.

On another note, I have e-mailed Bob back asking what I would need to continue in his classes and he has never bothered to respond back.

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## Dave Drawdy

Really?  Not sure how you came to that conclusion.  The Nihonzashi instructor was one of Bob's students.  They were in the same organization, same style, same teachers.  As for Bob not 'bothering' to respond, he is the sensei, you are the potential student.  Your job to follow up, show up.  If you want it, you have to work for it.   

Dave

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## mark p. smith

> Really?  Not sure how you came to that conclusion.


Which conclusion are you refering to?




> As for Bob not 'bothering' to respond, he is the sensei, you are the potential student.  Your job to follow up, show up.  If you want it, you have to work for it.   
> Dave


Yes and the first time you are invited to the class. After that the sensei tells you wether or not you are somebody he wants in the class, am I not correct. I said that night that I was interested and I would followed up with him in a couple of days to see what I would have to do next. Well I did that and I never heard anything back. As I said before I'm not really pushing it because I am looking for more than just a cutting class and don't yet know if I would have time to commit to both.

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## PatrickA

> Yes and the first time you are invited to the class. After that the sensei tells you wether or not you are somebody he wants in the class, am I not correct. I said that night that I was interested and I would followed up with him in a couple of days to see what I would have to do next. Well I did that and I never heard anything back. As I said before I'm not really pushing it because I am looking for more than just a cutting class and don't yet know if I would have time to commit to both.


Bob Elder's classes and Mike Femal's classes all spring from the same "well" so to speak. Mitsuo Hataya sensei.

If you are interested in attending the Orlando class, show up and train. If Elder sensei doesn't want you there, you'll know it.

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## mark p. smith

> Bob Elder's classes and Mike Femal's classes all spring from the same "well" so to speak. Mitsuo Hataya sensei.


They may have "sprung" from the same well so to speak but it would seem that Mike has expanded somewhat. Bob's class teaches strictly cutting techniques. I am only coming to this conclusion from having attended the class and talking to him and some of the other members. 
Mike Femal's facility looks to take sword training beyond just the cutting training. Unless I am reading something on his homepage wrong.:
http://www.toyamaryu.org/DojoFlyer.htm
These are direct quotes from his web page:
"_This is your chance to get hands-on training in authentic Japanese Swordsmanship."
"Toyama Ryu is based on the practical application of the sword as a weapon. It consists of basic cutting techniques, basic kata, advanced two man kata and a variety of specific cutting patterns."
"Classes cover every aspect of Japanese swordsmanship.  You will learn the framework of the art through kata, kumitachi, and tameshigiri cutting forms of Toyama Ryu. "_I am anticipating from this more of what I am looking for in JSA. :Big Grin: 




> If you are interested in attending the Orlando class, show up and train.


The class isn't free. To start training I have to pay and I haven't been able to get anything from Bob on what I would need to do next. As I said until I'm sure which class I prefer or if I can juggle both dojos in a trainging cylce I am holding off on pursuing the matter further.




> ..show up and train. If Elder sensei doesn't want you there, you'll know it.


Why, is public humiliation part of the ritual? Why not just answer the e-mail.

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## Dave Drawdy

never mind.


Dave

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## PatrickA

> They may have "sprung" from the same well so to speak but it would seem that Mike has expanded somewhat. Bob's class teaches strictly cutting techniques. I am only coming to this conclusion from having attended the class and talking to him and some of the other members.


Elder sensei teaches kata, tameshigiri, kumetachi. Its all part of the Seizan Kai Toyama Ryu. Femal sensei teaches the same.

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## Chris Fields

Try both and see what you like better. Sensei Femal also teaches sword maintence classes, such as handle wrapping, tsuka making, sword sharpen, sword polishing, etc. We also do two man techniques and sparring with padded swords and such. Don't know if they do that over in orlando, never been there.

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## mark p. smith

> Try both and see what you like better.


That was my intention. As I said, I would like to be involved in tameshigiri but my real interest is in the sword handling techniques as shown in such videos as this (I am only using these as examples):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9YIn...elated&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs-uRHtQaDQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpJB9...t%20Blissfield




> We also do two man techniques and sparring with padded swords and such. Don't know if they do that over in orlando, never been there.


No, they do not which is what I have been trying to emphasize in these last couple of post. I was told in Bob's class by the members that they do not do that type of training. Hence the reason for coming to St. Pete. This way I can get tameshigiri training during the week and the rest on my weekend trips to St. Pete.

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## Chris Fields

Are you sure? If you only went to one class, you may have not seen everything they do. I think the classes would be quite similar.

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## mark p. smith

> Are you sure? If you only went to one class, you may have not seen everything they do. I think the classes would be quite similar.


Hi Chris;
I got there early and was talking with one of the older members for a while regarding the class and then with some others after the class. While I'm sure they do some sword care and maintenance there training is strictly centered around Tameshigiri. I asked quite a few times to be sure because I am so interested in the other training and handling aspects of JSA. They only meet twice a week. Tuesdays and Fridays. The Tuesday class is usually around 1-1/2 hours and only involves doing sword strikes and cuts for the cutting. They try to get some actual cutting time in for the students that can't make it on Friday nights. The Friday night class is 2 hours. One hour for practice movements and one hour for all approved students to do cutting. This is the class I attended.

BTW...How large is the actual "training" facility at Nihonzashi? At the Orlando dojo they had an Aikido class going on at the same time so they where pretty packed in.

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## Chris Fields

They have a pretty nice size area, they run the sword shop and such up front and the training floor is just behind that. It is alittle smaller than the aerobics rooms and dance floors I teach my Kun Tao Kung Fu classes at, but it is nice. The only thing they really need, which they should be getting soon, is some nice size mirrors up.

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## mark p. smith

Looking at the japanese Iaitos, are there any suppliers or manufacturers that I should stay away from?

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## Steffen Gjerding

When thinking about the Japanese iaitos you won’t go wrong with any of them. Its quality is overall good in all of them. The prices are all about how expensive you want the fittings and how much metal you need and how long the tsuka is. Look around and know that the quality is good enough. That’s the rule but exceptions exist here to.  
I am sure some has had a bad experience and some have other opinions in it. But I think almost everyone agrees to that it is good quality. I fell for swordstore because of the big choose in fittings.

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## mark p. smith

> They have a pretty nice size area, they run the sword shop and such up front and the training floor is just behind that. It is alittle smaller than the aerobics rooms and dance floors I teach my Kun Tao Kung Fu classes at, but it is nice. The only thing they really need, which they should be getting soon, is some nice size mirrors up.



Hey Chris;
Just pulled up your facility on Earth Google for some visual driving references. If earth google got the right address those large white tanks will really help.
BTW...Does the dojo and store take up that entire building or just part of it?
Building is long and narrow with a wider center section. Did I get the right location?

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## Chris Fields

Sounds right, they are just one section of the strip mall.

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## Matt Lanteigne

> When moving to cutting, I will not need to adjust to a new sword, nor be surprised by a heavier sword.


Where do you train again Chris? My experience has shown that at cutting seminars the number of cuts with a shinken are a mere fraction vs the number done in regular iai or kenjutsu training. There is little to no adjustment required...more the psychological factor that you're actually cutting something.




> As far as I have seen, most historical swords are closer to the cutting swords, not the iaitos. The Iaitos have been lightened up alot so that people can move faster and more controlled through their katas. I believe this gives you a false sense of security, because the real sword will be heavier.


False. Iaito are generally lighter to preserve people's joints and tendons. Few people in this modern era start swordplay at very young ages, and thus do not develop the muscles required to prevent damage to their joints, tendons etc. etc. Thus swinging something heavy around from the get-go is potentially dangerous. There is no false sense of security here. 

Iaito are simply a necessary next step after the bokken in some styles before a shinken to allow for people's techniques to prosper correctly and their body to adjust. 

Besides, when cutting, the sword's weight has nothing to do with it...it's all technique. Or should be.




> I apologize, but the last two post reiterate what I was talking about. Working with a heavier weight Iaito from the beginning trains your body to get used to a proper weighted sword. Training with a lighter blade will cause you to develope technique for a lighter blade. When it comes time to move to a heavier blade, the same technique will possibly not work.


Utterly false. Where are you deriving your experience from? In no sport or discipline do you go from crawling to flying. If sufficient time to develop the required physicality to do the proper movements is not allowed for, then your technique will be garbage. Period. If your technique is also sound using a lighter blade then it won't matter if you cut with a heavier sword. So long as the technique holds up you will cut. 

There are no seperate techniques for heavier and lighter blades, at least not in JSA that I've ever heard of. You are trained the same regardless of weight.




> If someone is developing problems in there joints, they are probably doing a bad technique, or abusing their joints in some other way.


False. Doing movements however correct the technique is with an object beyond a person's physical ability will cause injury. THAT'S WHY WE USE IAITO.  :Cool: 




> Think about how people trained historically, they went from wood to metal at a young age, and the metal swords were the same weight, and some even heavier, than the real swords. They didn't have aluminum alloys in the 1500-1600s.


You do realize this is the year 2007 right? Again, show me how many people here have started swordplay of any type at 6 years of age. If not, then you must surely understand that this is a new movement for people's bodies to adjust to. Most JSA'ers start their discipline as fully grown adults, and the movements can be tough on all of their joints. So you cannot compare the two era's. There is no comparison there. That is why those of us with day jobs like to protect our bodies so we can still work and also enjoy our hobbies. 





> It's not about being macho, it's about training the best you can.


I don't think your ideology supports the best way to train. I think starting off doing something that your body is simply not adapted for will greatly increase your chance of immediate injury, and almost guarantee you for injuries down the road.





> Think about training in ANY OTHER sport. If you want to run a 10K marathon, you don't practice running a 5k and expect to able to do your best a running the full 10k. You instead practice running a 20K to prepare for your 10K marathon. If you want to last in 10 round kick boxing match, you don't train for 5 rounds, you train for 20. If you want to throw a shot put further than anyone else, you don't practice with a lighter shot put, you practice with a heavier one. etc...


You're forgetting EVERY step before your examples. Marathon runners will run for 1 minute, then walk for 1 minute, and increase until they are running constant for their goal distance. This happens over months and months. A person does not wake up one morning, decide to run a marathon, and go for a 5 km, 10 km, or a 20 km run. Rubbish. They build up slowly to *prevent injury* by allowing their bodies to adjust.

The same goes with ALL of your other sports related examples. You have completely skipped over the fact that there is months and sometimes years of build up to allow the body to acquire the physical ability to perform at a competition level.

So what this all comes back to, is that training with a heavier sword is going to make you a lot more prone to injury. And what is the point? Your techinques will be exactly the same should you use an iaito that is suited to your body and feels comfortable. 

Japanese iaito generally are of better quality than their chinese counter parts. There is no debate to this. Japan is the home of nihonto, do you really think that another country is going to top them when it comes to their own heritage?

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## Chris Fields

Understand what I am saying before you say it is false. 

I don't think you will disagree with me, nor state what I am saying is false, if you understand what I am saying. Btw, I have 17 years experience in martial arts and close to same in different style of swordsmanship.

I never said people should train with a sword that is too heavy for them, or over their limit. 

I never said people should jump into heavy training, yes you need to easy into it. The swords I am talking about are just slightly heavier, and yes they are closer to a real shinken wieght, in fact the one in particular I was speaking of, is a real shinken, just dulled down. There is no need to easy into it because the weight difference is not that much. And you easy into by your training, not by your sword weight.

What I am saying is alot of the iaito out there, are just way to light, some are around only 1 lb or even less. These can be lighter than even a boken. A normal person can handle a 2 lb to 3 lb sword with no problem, so why not use it? Why, I believe it is because alot people want to take the easy way out and not train their bodies to their full potential. This is happening in more than just Japanese swordsmanship.

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## K. Cantwell

> What I am saying is alot of the iaito out there, are just way to light, some are around only 1 lb or even less.


Are you sure you aren't including kid's iaito in this?  550g is the lightest I could find on Tozando for example, and that is specifically for kids.  The Learner and other basic models go up to 820g.  Most of the "better" models are right at about 1000gm.  Swordstore is about the same. 

So, I don't think many adults are using a 550g iaito.  Most are right in there at the 820-1000g range.  Perhaps there is a medical reason why someone would want a lighter sword, which is fine.  It is their training.  The vast majority of Japanese iaito being offered for sale to adults, however, are not 550g.  (Maybe some of the other non-Japanese companies are selling lighter iaito...I don't pay much attention to them so I wouldn't know.) 





> Why, I believe it is because alot people want to take the easy way out and not train their bodies to their full potential.


I'm not sure I understand the thinking behind this statement.  Why would someone not interested in learning how his or her body can efficiently use a sword take up such an esoteric art in the first place?  If you want the easy way out, just don't show up to the dojo in the first place, no?  It seems like more work to train incorrectly with the wrong weapon for your body. 

If you are training in a legitimate dojo,  I would think you are using the sword that is appropriate for you.  You have your teacher's guidance, not to mention a network of seniors, ensuring that you're training with what you should be.  You've handled their blades and know what you should buy and where you should buy it. 

Kevin Cantwell

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## Steffen Gjerding

Is not using your full potential up to the point that your body won’t handle it any more? Witch means using a too heavy sword is above your potential, yet. Your potential will increase in parallel with careful and correct training.

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## Chris Fields

Even the 1000 gm model equates to only 2.2 lbs, that for me is still light, I can see that being great for others. 

The iaitos I was refering too specifically were the paul chen ones, I believe they are lighter than the japanese ones that went up too 1000 gm.

"Is not using your full potential up to the point that your body wont handle it any more? Witch means using a too heavy sword is above your potential, yet. Your potential will increase in parallel with careful and correct training."

Nope.  :Smilie: 

I say people want to take the easy way out of training, because I see it all the time. Again, this is what I personally see, and doesn't apply to everyone. A good example of this, is some one is running through a form several times, and then complain, "my 2 lb sword is too heavy, I need a lighter sword". I believe this person should be trying to train his body for the weapon, instead of changing to an unrealistically light weapon to fit his body, so he should be saying "Oh, I need to keep working with this sword more to get use to it". Make sense?

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## Bogdan M.

> I say people want to take the easy way out of training, because I see it all the time. Again, this is what I personally see, and doesn't apply to everyone. A good example of this, is some one is running through a form several times, and then complain, "my 2 lb sword is too heavy, I need a lighter sword". I believe this person should be trying to train his body for the weapon, instead of changing to an unrealistically light weapon to fit his body, so he should be saying "Oh, I need to keep working with this sword more to get use to it". Make sense?


Chris, it seems to me you are uncapable of understanding that probably the fact that you have some 10 years behind you in other forms of martial arts and fencing makes you much more phisically prepared than the average iaido beginner. Maybe you have the technique of somebody who's been training for 1 year, but you may have the joints and tendons of somebody who's been doing it for 10.

What I find bizzarre is why you don't understand that giving beginners advice based on your very particular situation, exposes them to risks. Risks of physical injuries and of learning bad technique. I have heard that all the time, peoiple using improper training tools (iaitos too heavy, too light or too short). IMHO you should more considerate about what is the part of your experience that can be applied to others too, and about the advice that you give.

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## K. Cantwell

> A good example of this, is some one is running through a form several times, and then complain, "my 2 lb sword is too heavy, I need a lighter sword".


What do the teacher and seniors have to say when they hear this?  




> Make sense?


 Everybody has different concepts of what training is all about and different paradigms.  If the person says this on the first day it is quite different from a person training for a few years feeling twinges of pain saying, "Man, this isn't working for me.  Maybe I should talk to Sensei about getting a lighter blade."  

Plus, if that person if practicing conscientiously and sincerely, how is that the easy way? 

When I first started iaido, I used a 2.5 (I'm 6'1") shaku sword.  While I don't do formal iaido anymore, I still train in swordsmanship.  The sword I use to practice with now is between 2.4 -2.45.  It feels much more natural for me.   Plus, I've had off and on issues with my elbow throughout training, and the heavier blade would actually cause me to miss training with more injury.  (I train in naginata also, and that sucker is heavy.  The last thing I want to do is compound problems with a heavy sword.) 

I pull out my old sword every now and again and it feels a bit clunky.  Now, I could probably get more used to the 2.5, but why?  Training isn't about using the heaviest or longest weapon you can.  This may not have anything to do with realizing potential. It's about efficient training with _longevity_.  You want to be doing this stuff when you're 80, so yes you push your body, but not to the point of burning out or injury.  I think the idea is that a bit pain is fine and didactic but injury is not something you want. 

Kevin Cantwell

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## Chris Fields

Oh my lord people, read my posts!  :Stick Out Tongue:  

I was talking about iaito that are so light, that they are lighter than even boken. That, to me, is too light.

Everyone starts with a boken, so why would drop to a lighter sword?

 :Smilie:

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## Timo Qvintus

> I was talking about iaito that are so light, that they are lighter than even boken. That, to me, is too light.
> 
> Everyone starts with a boken, so why would drop to a lighter sword?


..because it's not supposed to be muscle workout?  :Stick Out Tongue:  Just kidding. 

With most bokken you have a balance that's nothing like it should be, no grip worth mentioning, no bo-hi to give audible feedback, and so on. I've heard (no personal experience) that you can get heavier Japanese iaito, too, without altering the length of the blade; possibly by using heavier material for the blade, and altering mihaba and kasane?

I use a carbon steel iaito/mogito myself, I like how it balances and feels in use, but there's much more to it than just the weight. The tsuka is selfmade, with a full same wrap and silk tsukamaki, so it's durable and shaped exactly (well, best I could make it) for my hands. As a contrast, one of my instructors has an aluminum/zinc iaito which weighs something like 0.4-0.5kg, which is ridiculously light. Further, I find that the shaping of JP-made iaito makes it difficult for me to get a good grip (my fingers are long-ish). But that's just me. Also, the kata we do (Muso Shinden Ryu) are hardly meant for cutting, so there is no actual need to "upgrade" to a shinken.

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## Steffen Gjerding

> I say people want to take the easy way out of training, because I see it all the time. Again, this is what I personally see, and doesn't apply to everyone. A good example of this, is some one is running through a form several times, and then complain, "my 2 lb sword is too heavy, I need a lighter sword". I believe this person should be trying to train his body for the weapon, instead of changing to an unrealistically light weapon to fit his body, so he should be saying "Oh, I need to keep working with this sword more to get use to it". Make sense?


Most people will start with a bokken, then iaito and then shinken. You start with a lighter one upgrade to a heavier, and then to the real thing. This has something to do with building the correct techniques in terms of sharp edge and to the building of the correct muscles.   

If this person thinks his sword is too heavy, it most likely is. Sure, it is possible to adopt your body to it over time, but it is with a curtain danger of harming your wrist or elbow, witch I am sure you agree to. 
It would be much better if you said I agree with you on the danger of damaging your wrist or elbow and that you then begin with a lighter weapon when the first sign of it occurs. But my opinion is that it is much better to practice the correct techniques with a lighter weapon, because you are going to upgrade to a heavier weapon in later times anyway. You don’t have a hurry today. As Cantwell said, you want to do this till the day you become senile. Doing this the fastest way with much danger to your body and technique; I don’t se the point.
But everyone is different, thank god.

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## Matt Lanteigne

> Oh my lord people, read my posts!  
> 
> I was talking about iaito that are so light, that they are lighter than even boken. That, to me, is too light.
> 
> Everyone starts with a boken, so why would drop to a lighter sword?


Hey Chris,

I think Bogdan M. brought a good point into perspective that kind of reflects where you are at in training. Using both our past examples regarding progression in a sport/activity, given your experience you're already at point D, but have naturally progressed through A, B, and C. So it may be difficult for you to see why a person continues to use a lighter training tool.

Also, who do you know that is using a lighter sword? Are you fully aware of the conditions surrounding that person's decision to use a lighter iaito? Not everyone is built the same physically, nor starting swordplay at an early enough age to allow their joints to adapt in enough time. 

Another important point is in the above quote, you say..."that to me, is too light". Well choosing an iaito or a shinken is a very personal thing. Sometimes one aspect of it is sacrificed in order to gain another (style vs weight, for example). The point is that what's good for one person, may not be for another. Since this is opinion based and there are many physical and potential medical conditions surrounding the choice of an iaito, it's not fair for you to condem someone's choice. Especially since you're body is very well adapted to these conditions...others may not be. 

I think if you go on the idea that not all those who "play with swords" are built equally, then you may be able to better accept that some people just need lighter iaito.

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## Chris Fields

Great posts!

Timo - When you did you full wrap, did you place some wood shims on the front and back of the same before wrapping it prevent the same from scaring up the wrap? Just curious, I am still up in air wether to replace just the panels or the do a full wrap. Thanks

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## mark p. smith

Now that where back on track for this thread, has anybody every bought from this supplier?

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## Matt Lanteigne

Personally, I'd still go for a japanese made iaito. For the reasons mentioned above, you're getting more bang for your buck. 

2 Beginner Iaito for under $300 by Meirin:

http://budogu.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page22.html

Tozando has already been mentioned, either go to www.tozando.com or go here: http://www.budo-aoi.com/

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## mark p. smith

> Personally, I'd still go for a japanese made iaito. For the reasons mentioned above, you're getting more bang for your buck. 
> 
> 2 Beginner Iaito for under $300 by Meirin:
> 
> http://budogu.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page22.html
> 
> Tozando has already been mentioned, either go to www.tozando.com or go here: http://www.budo-aoi.com/


I thought this link was japanese Iaitos.:
http://www.jidai.jp/shop_replica2.asp

Every other link I find with japanese Iaitos is a two month wait minimum.

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## Dave Drawdy

the ones from Jidai would be fine.  The two month wait everywhere  is because they are usually made to order.  

Dave

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## Matt Lanteigne

I believe AOI-budogu also had some in-stock. You could also email a given company and see what they have in stock in your blade length...you may get lucky.

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## mark p. smith

One thing I notice with some of the japanese Iaito links is that they don't give the length of the Tsuka and some of them looked a little short for me. I found on some of them they where only running a little over 10" or 25.4cm.
I have large hands and when practicing with my bokkens I have found myself with my trailing hand half on and half off the end of the Tsuka at times. The ideal length that I have always felt comfortable with was around 11", 10-1/2" minimum but I see alot of iaito, japanese or otherwise usually don't go over 10-3/4" until you get up into some of the more expensive models such as Paul Chen's.
Or is the "large hand" syndrome a falasy and comes from not holding your weapon correctly thru the moves.

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## Bogdan M.

The tsuka length is something you should ask your sensei for.

I tend to preffer 12" tsuka (I'm 6'2"), but my teacher recomended 11", so I bought 11" and it works just fine, if I hold it corectly.

Most manufacturers can provide custom options for your tsuka, even if it's not written on the web site. For premade iaitos, you're stuck with what they give you (like those from jidai).

There's lots of options out there, Some sites that I provided to you earlier all offer tsuka options up to 12" (samurai store, nishijin and tozando). Patience and a little bit of research goes a long way. But first you must decide what you want to do with that iaito and ask your instructor what size would suit best.

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## Matt Lanteigne

Ditto to what Bogdan said. Most companies can accomodate you with of course a bit more cash from your wallet. Reason being is that most iaito blades come from the same mold, so anything that is somewhat custom is going to cost a bit extra. Swordstore.com I believe has options for longer tsuka right on the site.

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## mark p. smith

There's an old saying we have in the construction industry:
*"There's no problem that can't be solved with large sums of money!"*

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## Dave Drawdy

> ... they don't give the length of the Tsuka and some of them looked a little short for me. I found on some of them they where only running a little over 10" or 25.4cm ...


 what is the correct length for the correct grip for the style you are studying?   or is this another one of those preconceptions things?   :Smilie:   What you like or are comfortable with may not be correct for what you are eventually going to train in.   Am hoping you will get input from your teacher when you pick a place to train, no pressing reason to get all this stuff before starting.  Two quick points - 1) correct grip varies by style.  some have hands together, some a few fingerwidths apart, some like more distance for leveraging cuts.  But the longer lengths do not work with some basic strokes for other styles, so the style you train in does make a difference.  - 2) in Japanese iaito , the tsuka is the usually the correct length for the nakago, which is usually the correct length to balance the sword, by traditional standards.  So, a longer blade will have a slightly longer nakago and tsuka.  And requesting a longer tsuka is do-able, but you will probably not get a longer nakago to support it, which means a possible structural weakness.    

Dave

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## Gary S

As far as the tsuka length goes, unless you have hands like Hellboy, I would assume that you're a fairly large person. In that case, the overall sword needs to be large, not just the handle.  The ridiculously oversized tsuka you see on some of the Hanwei swords is due to their collaboration with Bugei and one particular person's requirements. I've been a collector for over 15 years and I've handled and seen a lot of antiques. I've only seen one sword with those proportions.
As far as the weight argument goes ( shinken VS iaito), not only are there many different weights of iaito, but there is an infinite number of weights as far as the real thing goes. Remember, most swords were made by hand individually. Also as the years go by and the sword is continually resharpened, more and more metal is removed from the blade.
I have an old Koto Bizento which is gimei (forged signature) I have practiced with this for many years. This sword is lighter than any iaito I've ever seen, and it's approx. 27 inches long, which is a good length for an older sword.

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