# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  french m1822 sword

## william fisher

morning all   a question but no pictures  I seen a French sword m1822 cav. sword for sale with scabbard  this sword in question has a 4 diget number on one of the brass hand guard branchs the number is 3982 along with a few various other stamps like a with A circle around it   and the scabbard has a numbered stamped on it also looks like 4  6994.   With the sword number can you tell when the sword was mfg. ? I know a lot of these types swords were produced  also should that scabbard have the same number as the sword  has ?  thanks for any help you can give me bill

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

Hi William, I am not up on French swords but inspector stamps on ricasso indicate French manufactor and inspector marks and unit numbers on knuckle bow indicate French service. Your sword should be etched on spine with manufacturer and date close to ricasso.None of my French swords have scabbards so while I would assume they should match I really don't know on French service weapons. Regards Eric

----------


## Will Mathieson

Bill the numbers you describe are rack numbers and cannot date the sword. It is common for these marks to be mismatched, some will pay a small premium for matching numbers.
The "A" is a poincon which can give you a date range but because different time periods and manufacturers used similar markings you would need to post a photo of the mark.
Usually engraved in script on the blades spine is the maker, model and date made.
The 1822p French sword is fairly common and easily sourced. 
Depending on your collecting criteria you may want matching numbers and/or a date on the spine that falls into a conflict period such as Franco Prussian War, 1870, 71. or Crimea War 1853-56. Swords pre dating these can also have seen these actions.

----------


## DanR

Good morning,
As Will said, if French, there should be markings on the spine that would precisely date the sword.
Now, Klingenthal supplied these sabers from 1822 to 1829, then Châtellerault took the relay.
The  "A" in a circle _could_ be the poinçon of N.E. Anus, director from 1908 to 1909 at the arsenal of Châtellerault.
Best,
Dan

----------


## william fisher

thanks guys for your reply s yes there is some engraving on the sword spline from internet looking at the spine I see a date of 1888, looks like that an a lot more writing on it I think I am going to call him Monday and have him read to me the rest of it. I am trying to match (sort of) my French helmet which I asked you guys about last week. thanks guys for your help will find out more Monday when I call him Monday.  bill I now you guys cannot give price for items BUT is say figure of appx  500.00  ok appx price ???

----------


## DanR

Bill,
PM sent.
Dan

----------


## Will Mathieson

Hi Bill condition is important to pricing with a more common sword. It is a later dated sword that most likely was never used. PM sent.

----------


## william fisher

thanks guys for your reply bill read both pm  thanks again

----------


## william fisher

hi guys me again  !! since I do not have a good way to take close up pictures of things  can you please tell me where I may find info on the various type s of markings on the branch or branches of old French swords especially a 1888 Chatellerault  m1822 cav sword that I mentioned the other day thank s for all your help bill

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

http://users.skynet.be/euro-swords/klingenthal.htm, http://www.oldswords.com/.../French%...ds%20AN%20IX%2..., http://www.oldswords.com/.../FRENCH%...AVALRY%20SWORD...
Old Swords is a great place to start but there are others. Google french sword makers marks or various such phrases. Eric I should our own world famous Richard Dellar has a pdf or two on french swords and is packed with info. Dan and Will are also top notch with french markings if you post a photo for them. Regards Eric

----------


## DanR

Good morning William,

As Eric said (and thanks for the good words).
Models 1822 has only two sources : Klingenthal and Châtellerault, with the exception, of course, of private cutlers catering for officer's orders.
Feel free to post any information you have and I'll do the research.
In addition to Eric info, there is also a most valuable thread somewhere from Jean Binck.
Best,
Dan

----------


## william fisher

thanks guys again for the help on this one last night I tried to post a reply but it would not  let me !! two other question came to mind  (1) did chatelleraunt have there own poincons for the markings on the sword guard branch?  (2) almost same question is there a location some where that will show the( poincons ) that were used through out the late 1850 ish and later I am sure there must be a list showing them the web site you guys mentioned was klingenthal and they just showed pictures of a few of them I did find site all in French  called  fourbisseur coulaux I can not read French  again for now thanks for your help this sword in getting interesting about is history compared to some german ones which easy to find out about  thanks bill

----------


## DanR

Hello Bill,
1) Yes, Châtellerault has its own poinçons; usually, the poinçons of the blade are under the buffer.
2) Google : "Klingenthal et sa manufacture" ; the site opens; go under the title, clic on first word top left " Accueil"; you have then a page with flags; clic on the U.S. flag....et voilà, you have the English version.
Now, Châtellerault was a government arsenal in the town of same name.....not much emotion there
The village of Klingenthal was almost entirely devoted to edge weapons manufacturing, with the traditions and heritage of the families coming from Solingen.....lots of emotion and history there; the memory of Klingenthal has been kept alive by an association known as "Association pour la Sauvegarde du Klingenthal"; they edited a nice booklet well worth the price (20 Euros), if only to help them in keeping all the premises in good shape.
Dan

----------


## william fisher

thanks  Dan .. I will try it out

----------


## william fisher

Dan tried it out with out much luck ... where can I find a list of poincons used at the chatellerault mfg in English that would appear on the 1888 sword and any other marks on it like the info shown on the oldswords.com they show a partial list and pictures to boot something like show the poincon and explaining what it is  wow thanks  bill

----------


## william fisher

hi Dan  last night some where on this web site I seen a question about French poincons and the person who answered the question was Ian Knight  back in Jan 2007 I wonder where got his info from ??seen quite interesting which he had said more about them  thanks bill hope this help also

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

http://www.klingenthal.fr/presentation_marquages.htm and maybe this http://www.klingenthal.fr/marquages_coulaux.htm Eric

----------


## william fisher

thanks Eric the second web site was a little better but I have read on the internet that the klingenthal and the chatellerault used different poincons at there companies ? is there any way in this site to seen the info Ian Knight used for that info or hoe to contact him here ? I guess there is really no info showing or explaining each of those poincons used on a particular sword ?  thanks for that info bill

----------


## Glen C.

Hi William

Look closely at the blade writing and poincons.  So far from your description and efforts, you seem to be looking at a Chatterault made sword. Dan and others probably have the book _Les Sabres portés par l'Armée Française	--- by	Lhoste, J. & Resek, P._ which has the plafes of poincons and information.  The writing on the blade describes the month and year of manufacture and the mdle number.

Dan has already mentioned reference for the A in a circle and the sheets I have shared from the book mentioned agree with that.  The two poincons you should find on the base of the blade will be for the controller and inspector.  I would post these sheets I have but as it was shared with the promise not to post it publicly, all I can say is that so far, Dan is correct. The hilt mark would point to 1908-1909 for that inspection. The blade markings will show when the blade was made.

Ian Knight's forum profile has a link for messaging him.

Cheers

Hotspur; _my 1854 dragoon has had the spine writing rubbed off but those two blade poincons are indeed under the blade washer. Slide the washer up to reveal them_

----------


## DanR

Thanks Glen,
The informations given to Bill are from the books of Michel Petard; I checked the fine print and there is a copyright on them so all reproduction by any mean is forbidden.
Nothing wrong naturally, to transmit the informations on this forum.
Best,
Dan

----------


## Glen C.

Ah,so. I don't own books from either authors. I know Mark Cloke has shared some of the Petard files on Old Swords.  It was Dmitry that had shared some poincon pages some years ago. Only enough to get myself in trouble ;0

----------


## william fisher

hi guys thanks for your help  I am going to try get few pict of sword  poss Friday got it today  looking at the bar looks like a small 1  them a small, s with a star above it, the R in a circle, then a big A, then a B in a circle  then with #  3982  then then around inside the hilt where blade an hilt is are few numbers around it one side is a 3  also  a 7 other side is a 6  and a 22 then at the top part of the blade the wide part is a # 5  ad looks like a 1 in a circle   one side of the blade near guard is a small c in a diamond  then a R in a circle then a faint possibly 1 in a circle  scabbard has a sort of y marking then 16994 this is stamped on the sword hanger  the writing on the blade Med Ae _____ Chat  Pull et 1883 Cou  mel 1882  B 1883  wow lots or the lettering is very hard to read is there ant way t make the lettering stand out more ??  thanks for your help again will try for some picts  Billthe overall lgth is 40 1/4 inches and the blade lgth is 34 1/4 again thanks again for now

----------


## william fisher

hi guys the various numbers on the scabbard are by the ring are A 16994 and found another set on side also a small 27  a large 2  a small 09 and a small 8 side ways thanks  bill

----------


## william fisher

sorry guys for some reason I cannot down  load the pictures I got of the sword is there some way that the person who took these pictures for me to some how just use there email address  hopefully  thanks bill  of I an not email savy  !!

----------

