# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Chinese, South-East Asia (CSEA) >  Tai Chi Dao -- Questions

## Torsten P.

Hello,

on various online shops I found a sword type called "Tai Chi Dao". 
Of course they are wallhangers or practical swords.
An example see attached.

But the question of interest is whether this type is historically or a new designed modern "Kung Fu" weapon.
Could anyone give me some background information about this type of saber? 
It reminds me on ring-pommel swords, but they were straight. Or a big bladed Katana.
Is there any history about it at all?

Best regards
Torsten

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## Charles Kang

As far as I remember, Tai Chi was developed to match with existing weapons; not the other way around. Their are no Tai Chi specific weaponry. (I think.)

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## Klas Larsson

> As far as I remember, Tai Chi was developed to match with existing weapons; not the other way around. Their are no Tai Chi specific weaponry. (I think.)


Hi Torsten,
Yes, I agree with Charles, and I think that it was really made clear in some post on the old forum, maybe you can try to make a search on the subject there. As for the style of this dao, sometimes called Yang-style dao, that one was claimed to be a "Tai Chi saber of the Yang-family", but thats was proved wrong. It has a rather unusual combination of this blade and ring-pommel, and S-shaped guard, that are usually found on dadao, and sometimes niu wei dao, but it has been found all through the history of Chinese weapons, and on all kinds of sharp things...  :Smilie:  even on straight swords / jian. And all the way back Han dynasty swords, and older. 

So all in all, this particular dao can not be said to not be historical, the variations of pommels and guards and blade shapes are immense, even if you can name certain types that dominate for period, like the niu wei dao, the yan mao dao or the liu ye dao, maybe the most common in 17th to 19th century. But that is blade types and they can come with any combination of fittings, even if some will be more standard than others. Not talking about military weapons, they follow regulations of the period.

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## Benjamin Fan

Check out Zhang Yun's book. Saw it in a seminar he ran recently. He knows his stuff. I've seen this design referenced in multiple tai chi publications - don't know if it was designed specifically for tai chi practitioners but it does seem to be used.

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## jonpalombi

*Hi Guys,*

While this type of dao was not a major, classic form, there are enough remaining historical examples to suggest it was in existence at the end of the Qing era.  Even so, I doubt it was designed for taijiquan daofa.  Even so, it has become associated with the Yang family.  Perhaps it was adopted for personal preference/reasons, as Sifu Zhang Yun (Wu style taijiquan) alludes to ?  This one is missing the ring pommel but has the S-shaped guard intact.  Thoughts?



*ciao,   Jon*

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## josh stout

I am not an expert at the history of taiji, but I find the origin myth of this type of dao interesting.  Supposedly it is a northern style associated with the period when taiji had moved out of the Chen village and was being taught in Beijing.  

I have seen nothing to substantiate this.

Many short examples like the one Jon showed seem to have more in common with hudiedao, usually associated with southern styles.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...ofsword014.jpg

This jian example was found in Hong Kong and can be used like a hudiedao, but has the added advantage of being able to hook clothing with the finger guard, something the D guard cannot do.  Once hooked, someone running away would end up pressing the blade into themselves.  In my example, the chui style pommel would also be a potential non-lethal weapon with serious stopping power.

I see these as weapons for security guards/mercenaries.  You would want a longer blade for a full scale battle, and non-lethal options would not be important.

Longer bladed examples like this one may be more associated with northern militia/rebel groups.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...8EE5888000.jpg

It could have been made anywhere, but was found in Beijing.


Another example also found in Beijing, is at least reportedly associated with northern militia.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...duation365.jpg

And another reported to be northern.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...99___1084_.jpg

In these northern examples, the S shaped guard is made of brass, so while it would serve the function of guarding the fingers and catching incoming blades, it might break if used for catching clothing.

All the examples shown are also from approximately the same late 19th c. period.  So my general feeling is that while it is impossible to show any direct link between early taiji and the dao type used, at least there were appropriate shaped dao in the right place at the right time, being used by the right people to be incorporated into the style.  

The only dao I have ever seen with attribution to an early taiji practitioner was a willow leaf dao with no ring and a regular disk guard, so I think any strict association would be going to far.  The ox tail dao is by far the most common blade form used by martial artists.

Josh

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## Klas Larsson

When Yang Lu-Chan the originator of Yang-style Tai Chi Chuan, come to Beijing his main group of student where the Royal Palace guards, that belonged to  the military, and they most likely used there own weapons. He also had some Manchu princess as private students, but same there I would think. That probably would have been some variation of the Liu Ye dao, with disc shaped guard and no ring pommel. Later the Nui Wei dao was introduced, at least by Ynag Chen Fu´s time, but then maybe this style of dao may have been used by some. As they where not associated with the military they could use any style.

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## Bennison N

I found this picture, apparently of a Bannerman from the Qing Imperial Guard Brigade.

Looking at that sword... Blade-wise, I see straight until near the tip. I see a straight grip, a disk guard... It looks very Yanmaodao-esque to me. Hard to say for certain with it being in the scabbard and all, of course.

I do know that it takes more skill to effectively wield a Goose Quill than it does an Ox Tail or Willow Leaf. A lot of techniques usually attributed to Jianshu are possible with a Yanmaodao.

Sounds like something an elite would use...

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## Klas Larsson

I think you are right about this mans dao being Yanmaodao style. As I understand it, there was a general shift in the armed forces from Yanmao dao to Liuye dao after Qian Longs period, and this picture, I think, is from his period. So if the Imperial guard had their own weapons in Yang Lu Chans time, they may have been Liuy dao style, more likely than anything else.

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## jonpalombi

> I found this picture, apparently of a Bannerman from the Qing Imperial Guard Brigade.
> Looking at that sword... Blade-wise, I see straight until near the tip. I see a straight grip, a disk guard... It looks very Yanmaodao-esque to me. Hard to say for certain with it being in the scabbard and all, of course.


I agree with you, Bennison, it does have the subtle curvature of a goose-quill saber.  As you said, it's hard to say for sure, without releasing the dao form it's scabbard.  In any event, the military issue sabers of the late Qing were classic examples, be they liuyedao or yanmaodao.  The "Yang taiji dao" may well have became popular within certain Yang family practitioners, around the turn of the 20th century (a hard to prove assertion)...  but it was hardly standard issue for Yang Family stylists.

  From my small knowledge, when military fighting arts transformed into civilian martial arts...  many new weapons emerged, including the niuweidao.  Whether they were intentionally designed to appear as *obvious alternates* to the predominant military swords in use, remains somewhat clouded in obscurity.  That being said, there are many authentic, antique examples that leave their fingerprints behind (so to speak).  Josh posted several variations on this theme.  I suspect that the use of a dao like this, if it was intended for taijiquan practice, appeared looooong after real swords were common on the battlefields.  At least in it's recent, more stylized form.  I may be incorrect in this idea?  Regardless, in the late Qing Dynasty, it was more of a non-military design.  That's for sure.





> I do know that it takes more skill to effectively wield a Goose Quill than it does an Ox Tail or Willow Leaf. A lot of techniques usually attributed to Jianshu are possible with a Yanmaodao.


Not to re-direct the subject of this thread...  but what you have said about the yanmaodao is very true.  Based on this principle, the immensely-talented woodworker *Graham Cave*, has been working on the details of a wooden, fighting goose-quill saber.  His wooden jians are, by far, the very finest ever produced in contemporary times (if not throughout all of time).  Do check them out at:  * http://www.tigers-den-swords.com/*

  The yanmaodaos will be designed to compete in the Traditional Chinese Sword League's full-contact tournament events.  Given the predominance of jianfa at the first two open tournaments, these new yanmaodaos will be much better suited to counter the speed and effectiveness of the jian.  The Raven Studios liuyedaos used in the 2009 tourney, were at a disadvantage in such a heavily-saturated environment of jianfa.  These new wooden Geese will be quicker and possess a significant thrusting capacity.  They may be available by mid 2010?  Theoretically speaking, however, they are still on the blackboard.  As with his fighting jians, Graham has enlisted the guidance and feedback of some of the most illumined English-speaking authorities on Chinese arms.  It's always good to have the advice of seasoned experts and rogues (myself), alike.  The amount of research and experimentation involved in these projects is extensive.  In good time, a truly authentic fighting Goose will emerge form his workshop.   In my own small way, I am attempting to assist Graham in his research and development.




> Sounds like something an elite would use...


It was certainly more of a specialty weapon.  I guess you could say that they were elite, or at least specialists.  A good friend of mine knows several trapping/deflecting movements that a dao like the above "Yang taiji dao" examples can employ with the S-guard.  He showed me the methods for binding a spear attack and subsequent offensive movements, utilizing the leverage of the large ring pommel.  It is, most assuredly, an  interesting anomaly, in the myriad variations of the Chinese sword (as sabers go).   :Big Grin: 

*Be well and practice often,   Jon Palombi*

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