# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  Do you own any numbered and dated SJ Pillin swords?

## John Hart

Hi All,

Just acquired an interesting Pillin sword with owner's family motto but no other signs of provenance.  From the looks of it, it seems to have Indian connections, though there are no cyphers either of Queen Victoria or the HEIC.  The serial number is 99727, which should help me to date it; however, OldSwords has very few examples of numbered Pillin swords, and none which would allow me to date it more accurately than "1881 to 1922".

Does anyone have a named and numbered Pillin sword similar to the above which would give me a fixed date point and thus allow me to narrow down the manufacture period more closely?  The maker's address given (SJ Pillin, 31 Gerrard St., Soho) retales to such a wide span of years it isn't really much help!

Thanks for all replies,

John
PS: The hilt style is non-standard and therefore no help in dating the sword - bit of a one-off!  The blade is of modified pre-1892 type, (very) slightly curved with single fuller.

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## Bryan T

Hi John,
Not much help, but:
My only Pillin manufactured sword which I can situate is a claymore bladed Scots sword from the 93rd Highlanders, with crest and initials, but no number.. I have been able to guess as dating to the early/mid 1860s based on the original owner being in the UK and the battle honours applied in the etching.

Mottoes: Scottish mottoes form part of an heraldic achievement and therefore are easier to situate to a family group or cadet line/house.  Irish mottoes only form a part of an achievement if mentioned in the specific text description, and the same is re-confirmed for successive generations.  In contrast, mottoes do not form part of English achievements, although often pictured; they are not mentioned in the text unless it forms an augmentation or other such honour, and so a motto maybe changed as the armiger desired.  However, there are a number of mottoes that have been associated with certain families for generations.  If you post the motto I’ll happily look it up for you, thereby, at least giving you a start in searching the Army Lists for a candidate.
Regards
Bryan

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## John Hart

> If you post the motto I’ll happily look it up for you, thereby, at least giving you a start in searching the Army Lists for a candidate.


Hi Bryan,

Many thanks for this!  The motto is "Fide et Constantia" - preliminary research suggests a link to the Dixon family.

Cheers,

John

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## Bryan T

Hi John,
Here is what I can find initially:
Fide et Constantia = By faith and constancy (Classical) or fidelity and constancy (Mediaeval).  
Surnames immediately noted are: Dixon (generally) and Dixon (Lord Glentoran), James of Co. Kent, and Lee (generally).
Grants noted in Burkes Ed. 1884 for the above surnames and motto:
Dixon, of Page Hall, Ecclesfield, W.R. Yorkshire.
Dixon, of Hillsborough Hall, Co. Yorkshire.
Dixon, of Sheffield.
James, of (Grevis-James) of Ightham Court, Co Kent.  
Lee (Earl of Lichfield; extinct in 1766), so a minor house beyond the limits of ascendancy? 
Lee, of London. Granted in the 1563 visitations without a crest which is not uncommon with early arms..

If you have a copy or access to the latest private edition of Burkes Glentoran's achievement should be noted within if it is not extinct.
Regards
Bryan

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## gordon byrne

Hi Bryan,

Would be very interested to se some images of the sword if possible?

Gordon

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## Bryan T

Hi Gordon,
If you have access to Oldswords.com I have photos in the Pillin swords database.
If not let me know.
Bryan

PS Item ID: 888660

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## gordon byrne

Hi John,

Very high number when you consider that the Wilkinson numbers only reached this sort of level by the 1960's; I would suggest that whoever made the blade (sword) was probably a major manufacturer with very large scale production, and that the number on your sword falls somewhere within the overall numbers produced; what was Moles relationship with Pillin?

Regards,

Gordon

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## Martin R John

Hi John
Your sword is almost certainly late Victorian. I have four numbered Pillin swords.
96982 an 1857 Royal Engineers sword with the curved pre 1892 dismounted blade 34.5 inches long 
99045 an 1822/54 gothic hilt Infantry sword 32.75 inches long blade of the pre 1892 type.
100614 a Cross Hilt Scottish sword to the Seaforths and with battle hons up to Tel el Kabir - 1882 and VR  so pre 1901
104956 an 1821 Heavy Cav Officers sword marked to Edward VII.
I would suggest that as your sword's number is very close to my Gothic Hilt then your sword is almost certainly pre 1892.
Hope this is of help.
Martin

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## Robert Wilkinson-Latham

One must remember that Wilkinsons started numbering at 5000 in 1854 and other makers such as Mole, Reeves, Pillin, Thurkle etc came to numbering late probably in the 1870's at the earliest and then used 'Customer Order Numbers' from their Order Book rather than a register as in the case of Wilkinson.

Years ago at Wilkinsons they had  a  Thurkle Ledger and Pillin books from the early 1900's which some swords with numbers my late father told me. (Unfortunately these were lost when Wilkinsons showroom 53 Pall Mall was bombed during WW2.) Edward Thurkle ledgers were lost (according to a letter I received from Gaunts many years ago) in a fire in 1912.

  I also have Mole Ledgers but the swords ordered are NOT numbered, except for a few which seem to be 'specials'

So one can only exactly attribute a number on say Pillin or Thurkle sword if there is a presentation inscription and date, otherwise one is guessing by using the date of the pattern of sword.  An inexact science I am afraid.

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## John Hart

Really useful stuff, gentlemen - many thanks!  Using Martin's info and the Pillin name/address style, I think I can therefore date my sword to the period 1881-1892, which helps me narrow the manufacture date down.  Thanks for all your help!

For those interested, here are a couple of pics of the sword in its pre-cleaned state.

Blade: virtually straight, single-fullered, with flat back and C-->P mark.  33" long with no monarch's cypher or other device than the maker's name and owner's motto.

Guard: steel, bowl type with scroll pattern engraving.  Pommel nut is old but not original to the sword.

Scabbard: Indian type - leather over wood core with short chape
Bit of a puzzle but I'll start with the Dixons in the relevant Army Lists and work through Bryan's other possibles!

John

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## gordon byrne

Robert,

A question on Pillin. Did Pillin forge and test their own blades?

Gordon

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## Robert Wilkinson-Latham

> Robert,
> 
> A question on Pillin. Did Pillin forge and test their own blades?
> 
> Gordon


Gordon
Pillin forged _some_ blades but bought in a lot of blades from Mole and possibly Reeves-(Pillin was one of Mole's largest Trade Customers since the 1850's.- Mole also supplied Firmin)  As for testing, well I am sure that other sword blade makers and forgers hadn't copied Wilkinsons blade testing methods adopted in 1844 period, until these tests were adopted by the Ordnance  in a letter from Horse Guards 3rd December 1888 which stated....... 
_"...Please note that the following has been decided upon......all swords be accepted for service provided they pass the tests recommended by Messrs Latham and Kirchbaum."_ 

Reeves, Pillin, Mole  and Birmingham blade forgers would certainly apply the tests laid down by the Ordnance  (Pre 1888) on a hardened and tempered blade - 
_To be struck, back and edge on an Oak or Hard block of wood. and also flat ways on each face on a table in the usual manner and yo be sprung on an upright standard so as to reduce the blade 4 inches in its length- Blade to be troughed and weighed_

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## Matt Easton

Very interesting sword John. The blade looks fairly narrow?

I have a numbered and named Pillin:


It was owned by Major Christopher Erle, who joined the service in 1893 (when I presume the sword blade dates to, probably being re-hilted in 1897). He served in the Imperial Yeomanry in the Boer War and eventually died in 1917 from illness in Egypt, whilst serving there. The number on the spine of the blade is 101016.
Incidentally, mine has the exact same style of scabbard to yours (with part of the frog remaining):



I also own an earlier Pillin (an 1821 pattern RA or RE sword), I believe dating to close to 1862 when Pillin moved to Gerrard St, but it has no number on the blade and although the blade is marked to "Pillin, Maker" the proof disk has a fleur de lis instead of the usual 'P' that you associate with Pillin's later blades:







Regards,
Matt

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## John Hart

> Very interesting sword John. The blade looks fairly narrow?


Hi Matt,

Yes, it's only an inch wide at the ricasso.  Clearly a fighting sword, however - it has the kind of "enthusiastic" sharpening I associate with Indian swords!  Did Erle serve in India do you know?  That scabbard is very similar to mine as you say.  One thing that I did notice about my scabbard is that the stitching line up the back is not as ramrod-straight as I've seen on factory-made leather scabbards, and that plus the slightly wobbly engraving on the guard make me think of a locally re-hilted piece, probably in India.

John

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## Matt Easton

Hi John,
Erle did not serve in India. He was in the Middlesex Regiment of Foot, then the Scots Greys, then back to the Middlesex Regiment and then joined the Imperial Yeomanry presumably in order to get on active service to South Africa. He was wounded at Roodeval and shipped home then went on to join the Hampshire regiment. He left the service in 1913 but then signed back up when war started in 1914, serving in Egypt I believe with a service battalion. He seems to have had a few bouts of illness of some kind and eventually died in hospital in Alexandria, where his grave is.
My scabbard actually has the stitching up the front edge, which I find quite unusual. The blade is service sharpened, but very carefully.
Your guard is very interesting and I agree it doesn't look like the work of Pillin. Pillin swords seem to share the common feature of having very fine, almost delicate, etching and decoration. They always look more fragile than Wilkinsons and Moles to me.
Matt

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## Robert Wilkinson-Latham

Just found and Interesting piece of information about Pillin.
I, amongst others have said that the last owner of Pillin was Septimus before being bought by Wilkinsons in 1922-WRONG!!!

Septimus Pillin died in 1912 and probate granted 5th November 1912.  The company was then run by his son Arthur Septiimus  Pillin. aged 34 who was born in 1878.

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## Robert Wilkinson-Latham

And digging further, it appears that John Burgoyne Pillin and George Alfred had bankruptcy filled against them in 1851!!!!!

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## Willem Koopman

Hi Guys

I've got a SJ Pillin Royal Artillery sword, which from a process of not very good exclusion was made between 1881 - 1922.(I think its possibly 1900+ judging by the font used to write his name and address.) Sadly it has no initials. Interestingly it has no royal cypher (unless I'm missing something obvious.) The Serial is 101333

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## John Hart

> I've got a SJ Pillin Royal Artillery sword, which from a process of not very good exclusion was made between 1881 - 1922.(I think its possibly 1900+ judging by the font used to write his name and address.) Sadly it has no initials. Interestingly it has no royal cypher (unless I'm missing something obvious.) The Serial is 101333



Hi Willem,

We may be able to narrow it down a little more for you from swords owned by two other Forumites - Matt E. has a sword numbered 101016, which we believe (from the date of its owner's commission) to date from around 1893.  And Martin J. has one numbered 104956 which dates to 1910 at the latest.  So assuming Pillin sold his swords approximately in the order they were numbered (as opposed to making batches of numbered swords for stock and only selling them years later) yours looks like it was made between 1893 and 1910.

Thanks for sharing the pics - the lack of cypher is fairly unusual and in that respect is similar to mine.

John

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## Cathey Brimage

Hi Guys

I have had a Pillin Scottish Field Officers sword in my collection for some time with the initials PAK added to the blade at a later date.  I have spent a lot of time trying to narrow the date on the blade when it occurred to me that it may have been rehilted at the time it changed hands.  I have reviewed a selection of Army lists between 1881 and 1906 and cannot find anyone with these initials other than a chap in the 21st Lancers who is obviously not a fit.

The sword turned up in the USA so I was wondering if P.A.K. served in a militia or volunteer unit in Canada which might account for no reference in Harts.  Does anyone have access to lists for the following units in Canada?

Argyll and Sutherlands
Royal Scots
Royal Scots Fusiliers
Kings Own Scottish Borderers
Gordon Highlanders

This sword numbered 99070 features the steel distinctive thistle scrolled decoration over the hilt; with buckskin liner- the blue silked edges have been removed.  The guard still retains its original nickel plating.  Excellent fishskin grip with wire binding.  The blade has narrow double fullers on both sides and is etched with floral designs and regimental badge, along with the motto.  One side shows the makers name and address: S.J. PILLIN MANUFACTURER 31 GERRARD ST SOHO LONDON.  The other face of the blade has the proof mark -brass disc, and last owners initials: PAK.  The sword has also had two owners.  The original owner had his initials on the blade, and then it belonged to another officer who erased the original initials, and had his own engraved on the other side.  The leather scabbard still retains some nickel plating on its steel mounts.

I am assuming it is unlikely to be a family member as the new owner has completely removed the old initials.  The second owner's initials are very clear; however I have been unable to identify him thus far.  It is possible that he did not serve in the same regiment i.e. Argyll and Sutherlands.

Blade made by London Maker Pillin, Septimus John 1881  1912 at 31 Gerrard St, Soho. 

What is making me lean towards the guard belonging to a different regiment to the sword is that as far as I know, this type of guard with the thistle decoration was worn by Field Officers of the Royal Scots, the Royal Scots Fusiliers, Kings Own Scottish Borderers and the Gordon Highlanders according to Robson, and the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders wore the Engineers type guard.


Cheers Cathey and Rex

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## Mark Cain

Cathey:

I have a FO sword to a volunteer batt. of the A&SH, and another to the Gordons. The former is a scroll hilt, and the latter has the Gordon's badge motif, front and center. But yours, lacking a badge on the face of the guard, is unique in my [albeit limited] experience. I have access to some CDN records and will have a look.

Mark

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## Cathey Brimage

Hi Mark

I neglected to mention that the blade is clearly marked with the regimental badges, along with the motto of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, no regimental number so must be post 1881.

Cheers Cathey

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## Will Mathieson

The boars head etching is the same as the 5th Royal Scots Canada (Black Watch) and that also gives a Canadian connection.
I do agree that many Canadian swords are found in the US.

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## Cathey Brimage

Hi Wil

The blade has the Boars head which is the crest of the Argylls and the Motto: - 'Ne Obliviscaris' (do not forget) on the other side it has the cat which is the badge of the Sutherlands and the Motto: - 'Sans Peur' (without fear).  So I think the blade is definitely Argyll and Sutherland, however you may be right that someone from the 5th Royal Scots has re-used the blade with a different hilt.  Getting hold of names of Officer’s in Canadian Scottish Regiments is proving quite difficult.  Wil, I don’t suppose you can point us in the right direction to track down these lists.  Given I now believe the hilt to be newer than the blade I will need to extend my search into the early 1900’s.  

Cheers Cathey and Rex

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## Will Mathieson

Hello Cathey, I can ask as I don't have lists on hand.  The sword was most likely not in an area where swords were produced, having the initials engraved rather than etched.
I have a Pillin sword that dates 1873 due to the officers commission, but it has no serial number.

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## Will Mathieson

I don't know if you can use this link with just initials for a search, but it has some good info in it, if not for this project than something else.
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/0...909.005-e.html

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## John Sheard

JOHN HART  -  Numbered Pillin swords
Sorry I missed this previously, not realising I have what is most probably a S J Pillin sword. The sword in question is a 1827 Pattern Naval Officer's sword apparently previously owned by Captain F W Kennedy who commanded HMS Indomitable at Jutland, 1916 (Kennedy 1862-1939). There is no maker marked but the etching is of high quality and the proof slug almost certainly Pillin (see photo), likewise the style of the serial number. There is no Royal Cypher but the Royal Coat of Arms is displayed immediately above the point where the maker name should appear (similar to example on the Old Swords data base). A detailed King's Crown is etched on the blade above the usual Fouled Anchor consistent with Edward  VII and therefore post 1901. Serial Number is 99871, close to John's sword, and, if my assumptions are correct, this dates his sword as very late Victoria or very early Edward. Unfortunately this conflicts with Martin R John's number of 100614 and I am unsure whether his sword is marked specifically to Victoria or based on Battle Honours. Could it indeed be later? Hope I'm not confusing things, info on the thread has certainly been very useful to me. Happy New Year to all. Still learning, John Sheard

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## John Hart

Useful info, John - many thanks for this!

John

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## Martin R John

Hi John
I have rechecked my sword, it definately has VR etched in the fullers. I would post a pic but due to the depth of the fullers it would not be identifiable.
Martin

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## John Sheard

Hi John and Martin, I think I may have a solution to the anomaly caused by my dating. Whilst the blade has the well defined King's Crown, the guard has what I take to be a Queen's Crown. I had assumed that the guard on the 1827 Pattern was a standard feature on all Naval swords irrespective of age and the crown therefore of no significance. Having now seen other examples, this is clearly not the case. I then assumed that the King's Crown over Fouled Anchor on the blade was the defining factor in the same way as for Royal Cyphers. Victoria was crowned with the 1838 Imperial State Crown and later used her Small Diamond Crown (1870) i.e. symbolically a King's Crown, and this might explain its use on a Victorian blade. If I'm correct, my sword is late Victorian, the serial numbers are sequential, John's sword is dated close to mine and I can stop worrying! Kennedy was commissioned Lieutenant 1886, Commander 1898 and Captain 1904. Hope someone will either confirm or correct my research.
 Still learning, John Sheard

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## Martin R John

I have extended my list of Pillin swords with numbers when I found some more in the attic.

96982 - RE Hilt, VR
97569 - Scottish Field Officer , VR
97578 - RE retailed by Sandilands , VR - hopefully Marc Cain will provide the date he was commissioned. Marc's research gives it at 1859
99045 - 1822 Gothic inf hilt with 1845 Wilkinson type blade. -VR
99886 - 1892 pattern infantry officer's sword - VR
100614 - Scottish Cross Hilt to Seaforth's - VR, original owner Charles St Clair - from monogram and coat of arms -
               commissioned in 1898 - info thanks to the research of Yahya of New Jersey
100640 - Royal Marines Artillery - VR
104956 - 1821 Heavy Cav Officer's sword - E VII.

One scottish sword has a fixed - 1898 date whilst 99045 and 99886 bridge the change from the 1845 Wilkinson type blade to the current 1892 type infantry blade.

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## Mark Cain

> 97578 - RE retailed by Sandilands , VR - hopefully Marc Cain will provide the date he was commissioned.


I'm confident it that Pillin #97578 was the property of William Henry Collins, RE, who was commissioned as a lieutenant on December 21, 1859. If we assume he bought the sword at the time of his commission, I'd say it is likely your FO sword is solidly in the 1859 time frame.

Other notes of interest re Collins:

- Apparently was assigned to duties related to the Ordnance Survey in Dublin
- Served as an instructor in Surveying at the Royal Military Academy in Woolwich.
- "Major W.H. Collins served under the Bhootan campaign of 1864-65 in command of a Company of Sebundy Sappers and as Assistant Field Engineer, and was severely wounded at the assault and capture of Fort Dalimcote. Medal with Clasp." --Army list for 1875
- Collins authored a very detailed paper about the capture of the stockades at Dhomhonie and Mynagoree during the Bhutan Campaign of 1864-65. The paper can be found via a Google search. It is entitled: NOTES ON THE BHOOTAN STOCKADES OF MYNAGOREE AND DHOMHONIE CAPTURED BY THE FORCE UNDER COMMAND OF MAJOR GOUGH, V.C.  November, 1864.
- In order to provide class rooms for the various schools the Royal Engineer Institute [now the Royal School of Military Engineering] was built [in Chatham] in the year 1872 from the designs of Lieutenant Ommanney RE, the Institute itself occupying a portion of the building. This is under the control and management of a Committee of Engineer Officers of whom eight are ex officio and sixteen elected. The Secretary is elected by the Committee from a list of names previously submitted to and approved by the Commander in Chief. The successful candidate must obtain an actual majority of the votes of the Committee, i.e. at least thirteen out of the twenty four, to secure election. The first Secretary elected in this manner was Major W.H. Collins, appointed in August 1875. He was succeeded by Captain R.H. Vetch in 1877, who held the post until 1884 when his place was taken by the present occupant Major F.J. Day.

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## J.G. Hopkins

Looking at the numbers and sword types, only 2,308 swords were made between 1859 and ~1892?  That seems very low.

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## Martin R John

I do not think that all the swords were numbered. I have an 1895 Infantry pattern sword by Pillin that is not numbered. All of the swords described above have some form of personalisation in the form of complex initial and/or a coat of arms. 
In another thread, I believe that Mr Wilkinson Latham discusses this and feels that numbering in other cutlers may refer to special orders that needed additional workshop attention.
Martin

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## J.G. Hopkins

Thanks, Martin.  That makes sense.

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## J.G. Hopkins

97060 P1857 RE officer's sword, VR, SJ Pillin Gerard St Soho London, OldSwords.com #54110
99045 P1854 infantry officer's sword, VR, SJ Pillin Gerard St Soho London, OldSwords.com #22289
99649 P1821 RA officer's sword, SJ Pillin 31 Gerrard St Soho London, OldSwords.com #61149
100246 P1827 RN officer's sword, SJ Pillin 31 Gerrard St Soho London, OldSwords.com #71081
100381 P1897 infantry officer's sword, ERVII, SJ Pillin Gerard St Soho London, OldSwords.com #23071
100838 P1897 infantry officer's sword, SJ Pillin Gerard St Soho London, OldSwords.com #124814
100988 P1854 Guards officer's sword, VR, SJ Pillin Gerard St Soho London, OldSwords.com #109834

Some of these have to be out of order.  The RN sword looks Victorian to me although the photos and description don't show or mention a VR cypher.  Also, the Guards sword has a VR cypher whereas one of the P1897s has an ERVII cypher.

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## Matt Easton

My sword 101016 is Victorian and I'm fairly certain dates to 1893.

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## Martin R John

100614 - Scottish Cross Hilt to Seaforth's - VR, original owner Charles St Clair - from monogram and coat of arms -
commissioned in 1898 - info thanks to the research of Yahya of New Jersey


Correction , Yahya lives in New York and not New Jersey. 
I suspect the difference is of more importance on the west side of the pond than on the east side !!

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## Baz F

Martin,
Any chance you could post pics of the St Clair monogram and coat of arms?

Baz Ford

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## Martin R John

Hi Baz

Pic as requested. If you need a higher resolution picture, email me and I will send it as an attachment.
dalstondoc@hotmail.com

Martin

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## Baz F

Thanks for that. It is the same as a coat of arms on one of my swords.

Baz

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## Martin R John

Hi Baz
What sort of sword is it? Could you post a picture of the sword? Does the sword have any initials or monogram?
Martin

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## Martin R John

I several numbered Pillin swords and have managed to research most of them.  
Here are the results. 
Hopefully this will help others to date their own numbered Pillins more closely.

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## PhillipJames

A few years on now ?......But if anyone still seeks date & serial # information on Mr Pillin ? I have recently come-by a Pattern 1831 Scottish Infantry Basket Hilt, with Edward 7th cypher and a presentation date of 1908. The serial # of this sword is 105979. Sadly I cannot figure-out the owner's initials ? or ID the Lion in shield crest seen further up blade :-(

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## MikeShowers

Phillip,
It looks like the letters H.E.S.(not necessarily in that order)  The H (the letter with the dots) looks like an older form which looks similar to a lower case 'h'.  The S is going through the center of the E.  That is my interpretation. The way that everything is sort of hanging on the S  could suggest that it is the first letter of the surname.
Cheers,
Mike

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## Terry Witiuk

#101687.  A presentation sword dated January 11, 1901. Victorian, P1897 Infantry. Picture does not do the sword etchings justice...etchings are crisp and blade is near mint.

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## Victor S

#103631 - Edward VII, infantry, 1897 pattern.

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## Will Mathieson

Just got a 1857p Gordon Highlanders sword # 100619 with VR on the blade. Have yet to find the owner with the initials CMW not necessarily in that order.

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## John Hart

Only 5 on from one of Martin's swords, which was also a Scottish pattern, and dated to 1898 (see post #43).

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## Will Mathieson

The only officer with initials CMW and became major in 1898, the sword being of field rank is Claude Charles Miller Wallnutt DSO, major 18 May 1898 "The one and a half companies of the Gordons on Wagon Hill saw the loss of their commanding officer early on. Lieut-Col William Dick-Cunyingham VC was shot and died of his wounds the next day. Major Scott took over command and they managed to hold their ground against a determined attack. But when they were beginning to falter and withdraw, Major Miller-Walnutt rallied the men and they temporarily pushed the Boers back, but a counter-attack led by de Villiers reversed the situation and Miller-Wallnut was killed. An Engineers officer, Lt Digby-Jones then came to the fore and led them in a successful advance. The final victory came after a famous charge by the Devons. This was one of the hardest battles of the war that resulted in heavy casualties on both sides. The Gordons lost 2 officers and 17 men killed and 2 officers and 30 men wounded."  From: https://www.britishempire.co.uk/forc...ry/gordons.htm

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## james.elstob

Posted in Facebook and copied here with the owner's permission:

99131, Retailed by T Mcbride, etched with FEC and crest for Frank Evelyn Coningham, commissioned 1890.

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## George Charlton

I posted earlier, Capt. John Edgar Dent, a Pillin sword, VR blade 1892 pattern (that is the new style?), Edward VII guard. He served in Sudan, return to barracks in India
 I am presuming he ordered a new sword in 1891 - 1892, maybe for his return to Britain and promotion to Captain. Pillin number 100027

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## Will Mathieson

I may not have been clear in my previous post with the Maj. Miller-Walnut sword, the number 100619  to 1898.  I believe Matts earlier post of an 1893 date may be incorrect due to the serial number being higher than this one. Matt: "My sword 101016 is Victorian and I'm fairly certain dates to 1893."
Martins chart is quite helpful with dating Pillin swords, do you have an updated chart Martin? I will copy the chart and add it to my sword reference book(s).

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## Matthew Honey

I just bought a numbered S.J. Pillin sword yesterday. I thought I would add it here to the growing list for future reference. It’s a 1912 pattern cavalry officers sword number 108128. So I suppose that places it between 1912 and 1922. Here are some pics.









Hope that helps...

Matt

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## james.elstob

Hi, I've been doing a bit of work on this, gathering data on all numbered Pillins I can find whether named or not although most have something to help date them. 

I've got a spreadsheet, not sure how best to share the info. Most of these are from online public sites but some are from Oldswords (i.e. behind a paywall) so I don't feel I can share the whole thing without permission.

However here are the numbers identified so far, including those discussed in this thread. If anyone knows of any others please let me know.  Some of the sites didn't have enough info to identify the officers but there is still a lot of work that can be done.  Also welcome advice on how best to share what I have with the group. 

85032
96443
96982
97006
97060
97090
97314
97415
97473
97569
97578
97648
99032
99045
99118
99122
99131
99279
99304
99349
99649
99727
99862
99871
99886
100027
100246
100381
100418
100450
100470
100614
100619
100640
100838
100875
100922
100959
100968
100988
100993
101016
101328
101333
101394
101687
101800
102011
102531
103393
103401
103631
104070
104956
105979
106068
106187
108128

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## james.elstob

Found this one on an old Swedish auction, judging by the surrounding numbers i'm guessing 1896/97 (amended - not 1904) 

I'm struggling to make out the details from the image.

https://www.bukowskis.com/en/lots/73...ts-andra-halft

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## Ben Bevan

Another one for you James, my 1896p, retailed by Holt & Son London, Edward VII Cypher, # 105738. The initials are T L, Unfortunately I still havent conclusively tracked down the Officer. Sorry, images inverted for some reason!

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## james.elstob

Hi all, 

Every now and again I find another numbered Pillin, mostly with limited information but I've become a little obsessed with this research and I'm not far off completing an article about current knowledge. 

You just never know though when the next piece of the jigsaw is going to come along. 

Today I discovered an example well documented and dated owned by a little known officer named John. R. M. Chard! 

#96533

I can't tell you how excited I was, you'd almost think I'd won the sword itself!

Anyone here buy it in today's auction?

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## Ben Bevan

£81,500 including premium! What a Christmas present...for someone . Look forward to seeing your research James.

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## james.elstob

Could anyone help with this regimental etch? Am I being daft?   I think the initial are PMS.

1896p dated around 1896-8

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## Ben Bevan

Is that 3 H G? What does the scroll say beneath the lances James, the lighting on your photo is obscuring the detail somewhat.

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## james.elstob

Its not my sword, the images are from the link in post #56. 

I can't make it out. Possibly Lancers but the HG confused me.

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## Ben Bevan

The only suggestion I have is that it might be H C, that is The 3rd Lancers Hyderabad Contingent (disbanded in 1903), but I’ve never seen an 1896p attributed to an Indian Cavalry Regiment that I can remember.

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## james.elstob

Thanks Ben, I'm not finding a match on the initials PMS in the 3rd lancers HC lists but you could still be right. Another mystery.

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## james.elstob

Ben,

I think I've found a good match in the 3rd Lancers Hyderabad Contingent: PS Hicks.  Thanks for that input.

Regarding your TL '96 cavalry pattern, do you have any candidates? I note there is a Tom Lawrence VC with the 18th Hussars, although my best guess is that this serial number dates from 1907 and he was commissioned 1904.

As he was commissioned from the ranks he may not have had the means to acquire a personalised sword immediately. Perhaps he began with a loaner?

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## Ben Bevan

Thanks James, looks like Lieut.Hicks is a good candidate for you. Regarding mine, I had hoped the simple TL or LT would not be too difficult, however trawling through light and heavy cavalry, yeomanry and veterinary corps hasn’t been easy! Lawrence is Brian Turner Tom Lawrence so unlikely, re initials and date, as you say, we’re looking at 1907 onwards. The only three true ‘TL or ‘LT’s’ I could find in that era are Capt. the Hon. Thomas Lister 10H, but he was killed Somaliland 1904. Capt.Lawrence Timpson Hampshire Carabiners 2nd Lieut. Jan 1906, and Major Thomas Lishman RAVC Lieut. 1907. The search goes on...

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## james.elstob

Going on the serial numbers alone, January 2006 seems too early, so Lishman seems the better option.  

I need more dated examples post 1900 in order to pin down the ranges with any confidence.  

Tom Lawrence does of course have his other names but I figure if he goes by Tom Lawrence in the lists he's likely to prefer those initials on the sword. That said, his career doesn't fit the serial number dating.

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## james.elstob

Looking for help with this latest puzzle. 

A pillin identified from a book '1915: The Death of Innocence' by Lyn Mcdonald. The original source is said to be an article in the Times entitled The swords of fallen officers, dated 5th Jan 1915.

"_My late son's sword may have been picked up and forwarded to someone else. It is a claymore, No106,954 made by S.J. Pillin and embossed on it are the battles of the regiment and DCM from DFM._"

So I'm looking for DCM, an officer in a Scottish regiment, whose father is possibly DFM and who died during WW1, probably before January 1915. 

That serial number I believe falls in or around 1910.  In 1911 I can find 3 officers with matching initials in the active list.

DC Mclagan, territorial RFA 3rd lowland brigade. (lt: 1907)
DC Miller, 5th Bt. Royal Scots (Lothian) (capt: 1906)
Hon. DC Marjoribanks 

I can find neither McLagan or Miller as serving in 1914 or as casualties and Marjoribanks survived the war.

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## gordon byrne

Hi James, 

In the first instance I must say that I don't have any Pillin swords, and I can't recall ever having had any swords marked Pillin, and I have never studied Pillin to any extent.  Having said that, I can say that to do with my particular areas of research, I have recorded some swords with a Pillin proof mark, no number and no Pillin name on the blade. And I'm aware of at least two swords that bear a four digit blade number in 1,000 range.

Given that a few Pillin blades are stamped with a four digit number, is there any indication of when swords numbered in the 1,000 range were made?  Is there any explanation as to why the firm first started numbering and then seemingly stopped the process for an extended period?

There is one sword in the NAM Collection that was sold by Garden & Son 200 Piccadilly London however, I'm firmly convinced that the sword was made by Pillin. Although the "P" detail on the proof slug is difficult to read owing to age deterioration and associated wear, the ricasso is etched with a surround for proof mark which is typical of Pillin etching, as is the blade etching as well.

The most unusual and important characteristic, is that and the blade is stamped with the number 2627; and  this four digit number is not consistent with the numbering associated with Garden swords in general.

Is it possible that it's actually a Pillin number? A particular number which would start to fill in the huge gaps in the numbering of earlier Pillin blades? If my theory is correct, it would then mean that Pillin made swords with blades numbered in the 1,000 and 2,000 serial ranges are extant.

Your excellent work is really a very good way to show the relationship and extent of number groups as in 85,000 (nothing at all 86,000-95,000), which seems to represent a relatively huge gap in numbers,...What happened? 

Starting up at 96,000, then 97,000,  nothing for 98,000 range, and then 99,000. Then with relative continuity of blade numbers representing the number groups 100,000 through to 106,000, nothing for 107,000, and only one sword number for the 108,000 range.

Much like some charts on the subject of Wilkinson Proof numbers, and given your work on the subject of Pillin; is it now possible to add the year of production, or estimated year of production,  that the various number ranges fall within?

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## james.elstob

Hi Gordon,

I am reaching the end of an article on the subject which expands on many of the your points, some unfortunately I cannot answer.  

I've found Pillin swords with various number formats including 1 2 3 4 5 6 and even 7 digits in one case!

4 digits are common and in many cases these feature on swords retailed by Hawkes or John Jones & Co.  

The numbers and the dating show the 4 digit format are not consistent with what I would call Pillin's numbering system. Even among the 4 digit formats there are clear inconsistencies in dating versus sequence so there seems to be various 4 digit numbering sequences in play.

My best guess is that these are examples of Pillin utilising the client's own numbering system.  Beyond that I can't offer you much to assist with your Garden example I'm afraid.  My focus has been on the 5-6 digit sequence which now has 96 examples identified in the range 85032 - 108133.

I'm hoping to finish and get the article uploaded here relatively soon but in short, I do have a draft table correlating dates and serial numbers between 1879 - 1912.   At either end there is insufficient data. 

I'm also hoping to cover Pillin proof discs which is a difficult topic in its own right. 

Sometimes it feels like trying to nail jelly to the ceiling but I have some interesting findings to share.

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## gordon byrne

> Hi Gordon,
> 
> I am reaching the end of an article on the subject which expands on many of the your points, some unfortunately I cannot answer.  
> 
> I've found Pillin swords with various number formats including 1 2 3 4 5 6 and even 7 digits in one case!
> 
> 4 digits are common and in many cases these feature on swords retailed by Hawkes or John Jones & Co.  
> 
> The numbers and the dating show the 4 digit format are not consistent with what I would call Pillin's numbering system. Even among the 4 digit formats there are clear inconsistencies in dating versus sequence so there seems to be various 4 digit numbering sequences in play.
> ...


Hi James,

Based on theory only, another number I have in my Garden research stuff is 1621; which again is not consistent with Garden numbering however, in this case there is no proof mark. Would such a number come close to any of the other four digit numbers you've recorded? At least with jelly, you don't end up with egg on your face. 

Regards,

Gordon

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## gordon byrne

> Hi Gordon,
> 
> I am reaching the end of an article on the subject which expands on many of the your points, some unfortunately I cannot answer.  
> 
> I've found Pillin swords with various number formats including 1 2 3 4 5 6 and even 7 digits in one case!
> 
> 4 digits are common and in many cases these feature on swords retailed by Hawkes or John Jones & Co.  
> 
> The numbers and the dating show the 4 digit format are not consistent with what I would call Pillin's numbering system. Even among the 4 digit formats there are clear inconsistencies in dating versus sequence so there seems to be various 4 digit numbering sequences in play.
> ...


Could the various four digit numbering systems being in play suggest order numbering, or a particular four digit sequence having been allocated to each of a number of trade customers.

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## james.elstob

Gordon,  both suggestions are possible.  Because Hawkes operate their own well known 4 digit system (often supplied with Wilkinson trade blades) I had supposed that all the Pillin 4 digits were were part of client systems but it's possible some may be a seperate Pillin batch system, or even Pillin starting with a 4 digit system before jumping to 5. 

I had avoided trying to explain the 4 digit numbers because it meant becoming expert in several different retailer numbering systems but I'll have to take another look.... pass me some more jelly!

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## gordon byrne

James,

For some time the four digit numbers (1621 & 2627) on blades sold under the Garden name had puzzled me to no end, and I must admit that it was only this morning whilst reading your material that I suddenly had the thought that they may not be Garden numbers. However, as I say only a theory.

Gordon

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## james.elstob

Did anyone win this Royal artillery sword at Thomas Watson auction on Tuesday 14th December? It has the serial number 108562.

I believe it may be a Pillin and what's more it would be the highest numbered in the series identified to date from a current pool of 118. The numbering after 106,000 is proving very difficult to date due to insufficient data so if this could be identified it would be of great interest. 


https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/a...ink#lotDetails

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## Mel H

James, I looked at the sword in Thomas Watson's auction, I didn't bid because of the heavy corrosion affecting the hilt. I can't be 100% certain but seem to remember that the proof slug was marked with a 'T'.
Mel.

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## james.elstob

> James, I looked at the sword in Thomas Watson's auction, I didn't bid because of the heavy corrosion affecting the hilt. I can't be 100% certain but seem to remember that the proof slug was marked with a 'T'.
> Mel.


Hi Mel, I see what you mean about it looking like a T. Although I still believe live I see a P. 

What supports it being a Pillin rather than a Thurkle is the serial number.  Even when Thurkle was taken over by Gaunt I'm not aware of them getting into 6 digit serial numbers. (I could be wrong on that I've never set out to look at thurkle serial numbering in detail yet.) however the 6 digit number would fit perfectly at the higher end of the Pillin series.

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