# Communities > Modern-era Swords and Collecting Community > Modern Production Katanas >  Oni-Forge Shobu Zukuri...

## B.Blackwell

I wanted to share with you guys my experience so far with this piece and hopefully draw from some of you some advice on how I should proceed.

 I received the Shobu a few months back when the pre-order stock finally showed up (month late). My initial impressions were very good. Everything seemed to be in order. The Ito is very tight and well done. The fittings are all tight and very basic which I like, not to gaudy. 

 What struck me with my mouth open was the blade. It is absolutely beautiful. Thia is my first Shobu and I find myself really liking the geometry of this blade. The polish is very nicely done, no imperfections with the blade whatsoever and seems to be very sharp but I have not cut with it yet.

 So then the problems...I went to disassemble the tsuka from the blade and I noticed some damage to the tsuba and seppa. It looked like someone had hit the tsuba wrong or dropped it, I honestly don't know. Upon further inspection I found the black Same' on one side to be a very nice gloss black and the other side a very dull black. I'm not sure what's going on there.

 I emailed Loren about the Tsuba and Seppa damage and after about a month he graciously sent me a new tsuba and seppa. So now, I thought to myself I can finally disassemble it and fix it. So I ever so gently removed the tsuka core and what do I find...... a crack. right on the mune side of the tsuka, and a pretty big one to.

 So now that is two manufacturers I have found cracked tsuka on (we all know who else has this issue so i won't go there). I am really not sure what to do here, I am blinded by frustration at the moment.

 Anyone can offer some advice I would appreciate it, and I will also post the pics I took last night when I get home.

Blackwell

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## Glen C.

Was the tsuka a super tight fit? Can you share with us your complete methodology for tsuka removal?

Cheers

Hotspur; _have you contacted Loren yet again?_

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## AdamTNesvick

I, for one, am getting sick of this whole cracked Tsuka situation, its happening way too often anymore.

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## B.Blackwell

Ok, once again I am armed with a crappy camera and no skill, LOL.

The Blade...


Kissaki...


Parts... (note the length of the nakago)


Tsuka Crack...I tried to photograph this but it was no use I could not get a good shot of it.


Dull Same'...


Glossy Same'...


Tsuba...


Blackwell

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## B.Blackwell

> Was the tsuka a super tight fit? Can you share with us your complete methodology for tsuka removal?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Hotspur; _have you contacted Loren yet again?_


Glen,

 I have a small rubber mallet I use. I lightly tapped 360 degrees around the tsuba until removed. Took ALOT of taps to free it up. When I started it reminded me of my Cheness, that one was stuck on there good too.

 I also noted that the tsuka core is one whole piece. I could not find any seams where the two halves would "traditionally" be glued together. Probably explains the reason it was jammed on.

 No I have not contacted Loren yet. I am kind of at my wits end. Also my wife was forcing me to sell this piece, which is why I am being so picky about it. I will be contacting him, just wanted to run it by you all.

 Blackwell

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## J. Hedgespeth

Tell Loren you are sending it back and tell him why.  I think he would understand.

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## David Buck

Honestly I have had plently of swords with cracked tsuka.  As long as you have a fuchi and a kahira and most importantly a tight wrap you really have nothing to worry about in my opinion.  The tsuka won't break due to how a tsuka is on the nakago.  The excellent design of how the pressure is around the tsuka, inside the tsuka, plus you have two steel rings (the F/K) holding the ends from "splitting".  I would not worry so much about it splitting or breaking.  It just doesn't look nice with a crack.

As for the same', I have had that before when I do my own tsukas.  It is supposed to be as glossy as the other side but it either was not lacquered as heavily or lacquered at all.

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## Glen C.

> I, for one, am getting sick of this whole cracked Tsuka situation, its happening way too often anymore.


Well, see, there is part of my concern. How many are cracking on installation and how many are cracking on removal. I'm not sure where the rubber mallet on the tsuba routine started but it doesn't make good sense in applied physics. It may seem like the way to go but the broader faced the hammer and the wider the tsuba, the more leverage you have working against you. Would you guys consider starting to use hardwood blocks that will apply force against the seppa, alongside the habaki? A rubber mallet is also robbing you of energy. A good plastic faced or hardwood mallet, used in conjunction with a wood drift (block) against the seppa should be a lot more efficient. You can even make a tool (slotted board) that will apply force to both sides of the impact area (seppa). You can get the general idea of this concept by looking at the nakago nuki that Fred Lohman sells.

When you tap against the tsuba, you are driving the opposite side up into the base of the habaki and the habaki up into the machi. I'm not saying all the cracked tsuka are a result of removal technique but have to wonder if some might be.

I will freely admit my next would be my first but I'm speaking from experience in automotive and general machine repair knowledge. Anyone that has chased a bearing race down a shaft understands where I'm coming from. Anyone thinking about leverage and equal and opposite reaction should catch my drift (pun fully intended).

One could conceivably use my technique with sword and block in one hand and the mallet in the other. Yes, watch your fingers and palm on the edge (even wrap the whole mess in a rag). I'm not sure if I'm remembering correctly but I think it is Keith that has a special name for the fork gizmo.

Cheers

Hotspur; _someone did report botching a habaki in overzealous tsuba thumping_

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## B.Blackwell

> Well, see, there is part of my concern. How many are cracking on installation and how many are cracking on removal. I'm not sure where the rubber mallet on the tsuba routine started but it doesn't make good sense in applied physics. It may seem like the way to go but the broader faced the hammer and the wider the tsuba, the more leverage you have working against you. Would you guys consider starting to use hardwood blocks that will apply force against the seppa, alongside the habaki? A rubber mallet is also robbing you of energy. A good plastic faced or hardwood mallet, used in conjunction with a wood drift (block) against the seppa should be a lot more efficient. You can even make a tool (slotted board) that will apply force to both sides of the impact area (seppa). You can get the general idea of this concept by looking at the nakago nuki that Fred Lohman sells.
> 
> When you tap against the tsuba, you are driving the opposite side up into the base of the habaki and the habaki up into the machi. I'm not saying all the cracked tsuka are a result of removal technique but have to wonder if some might be.
> 
> I will freely admit my next would be my first but I'm speaking from experience in automotive and general machine repair knowledge. Anyone that has chased a bearing race down a shaft understands where I'm coming from. Anyone thinking about leverage and equal and opposite reaction should catch my drift (pun fully intended).
> 
> One could conceivably use my technique with sword and block in one hand and the mallet in the other. Yes, watch your fingers and palm on the edge (even wrap the whole mess in a rag). I'm not sure if I'm remembering correctly but I think it is Keith that has a special name for the fork gizmo.
> 
> Cheers
> ...


Glen,

 I don't feel that it was anything that I have done, but you never know. I used the term mallet because it was general and most could relate. I actually used a small Snap-On dead blow hammer (long time Automotive Technician myself as well  :Smilie: ). The dead blow is small enough to bring the strikes very close to the center of the tsuba. I have considered making a wood block like the one on fred's site but I have not got around to it. Actually my Matco dealer has some plastic drifts I can pick up..hmm those would work perfect  :Smilie: 

 Glen, thanks for your input. I will contact loren and see what he has to say. I think I will make a project out of it, we'll see.

Blackwell

P.s. If I was a "flat-rate" tsuka technician, I could see a few cracked cores, but I am very meticulous and careful with my baby's  :Smilie:

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## Michael Tinker Pearce

I hate to suggest this, but could the rash of cracked tsukas be related, at least in part, to the profusion of cheap swords?  

I have no idea if the particular sword in question is a cheap sword or not, but frankly the swords that this seems to be occuring on are, well, cheap.

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## B.Blackwell

> I hate to suggest this, but could the rash of cracked tsukas be related, at least in part, to the profusion of cheap swords?  
> 
> I have no idea if the particular sword in question is a cheap sword or not, but frankly the swords that this seems to be occuring on are, well, cheap.


 Seems to me it's looking that way. So far that is all I own, but very very soon I will have in my hands some higher end stuff  :Smilie:   :Smilie:  So until then, I got what I paid for.....

Blackwell

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## B Dreier

I have asked the same questions to the forges and they seem to say that the % of moisture in the wood when it is made over sea's changes. So when it arrives in the States most have shrunk as well as the saya rattle. Or it could be due to the fact that many tsuka core are just not made to each nakago and tapped on to pressure fit but splits the wood. Just my two cents.
Regards
Brian

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## Timo Qvintus

The climate in Finland is so different than say China that I'm starting to consider making a new tsuka for all my katana if I start to get it right.. (still searching for the proper wood to use).

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## Mat Rous

> I have asked the same questions to the forges and they seem to say that the % of moisture in the wood when it is made over sea's changes. So when it arrives in the States most have shrunk as well as the saya rattle. Or it could be due to the fact that many tsuka core are just not made to each nakago and tapped on to pressure fit but splits the wood. Just my two cents.
> Regards
> Brian


If that was the case, Iaito's would have the same issue wouldn't they? Most of the cost of Iaito's are the crafting of the Saya and Tsuka.

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## Timo Qvintus

> If that was the case, Iaito's would have the same issue wouldn't they? Most of the cost of Iaito's are the crafting of the Saya and Tsuka.


The tricky part of making saya and tsuka is to know where they will be sent to, and taking that into consideration. Climate-changes WILL affect the wood; whether it's a big or small change, combined with the type of wood used determines how the wood reacts. If the wood is good, and the saya-shi/tsuka-shi has taken the climate change into consideration the fit will be perfect after the climate change has taken full effect on the wood. This is something that cannot be done with production katana. They do what they do and hope for the best.

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## J. Hedgespeth

Yep...I'm just waiting on that L6 Bainite blade that is mounted in a carbon fiber tsuka core, wrapped in real kevlar ito.   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  

Of course, all the fittings, f/s, tsuba, mekugi and menuki will be made from the highest quality titanium, with that nice "rainbow" finish.   :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:  

Closest thing to a light saber.  :Smilie:

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## Mat Rous

> This is something that cannot be done with production katana. They do what they do and hope for the best.


Iaito are by definition, the equivalent of production Katana. Only the blade is "Non-traditional". As I said, the cost is in the workmanship of the furniture. The blade is a tiny fraction of the total price. 

It's one of the downsides of production blades - you have to accept that they are not constructed to the same levels and any flaws/issues are a result of that business model.

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## Rubem Bastos

> So until then, I got what I paid for.....
> 
> Blackwell


I couldnt read _comes with cracked tsuka_ on the sword specs. So no, you didn´t pay for that. :Wink:

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## Timo Qvintus

> I couldnt read _comes with cracked tsuka_ on the sword specs. So no, you didn´t pay for that.


LOL  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:

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## Rubem Bastos

Please dont take it as if I mocked Mr Blackwell situation. I was on the same shoes a couple days ago and he´s one of the few I shared my case with.

I encourage him not to tell himself  _that´s because it´s a cheap sword_ or _this series has focus on blades_. 

It was suposed to be safe to use...

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## B.Blackwell

> I have asked the same questions to the forges and they seem to say that the % of moisture in the wood when it is made over sea's changes. So when it arrives in the States most have shrunk as well as the saya rattle. Or it could be due to the fact that many tsuka core are just not made to each nakago and tapped on to pressure fit but splits the wood. Just my two cents.
> Regards
> Brian


Brian,

 Thanks for your Input I appreciate it  :Smilie:  I really honestly think both of these facts need to be considered.

 It is obvious that the tsuka is not matched to the nakago, so to me it seems the only way to fit it, would be to file then hammer like we all saw on the cheness forge videos.

 Now what Glen says makes sense too. The stress from tsuka removal has to be factored in as well.

 I think the combination of all those variables = cracks.

 Weird part about this crack is it's on the thickest part of the wood. I know the picture sucks, (trying to get a better one) but the crack is on the mune edge of the nakago-ana. With my cheness it was on the corner of the same' channel where it was very thin.

 Anyways I contacted Loren last night, we'll see what he says. Thank you all for your input  :Smilie: 

Blackwell

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## Timo Qvintus

> Weird part about this crack is it's on the thickest part of the wood. I know the picture sucks, (trying to get a better one) but the crack is on the mune edge of the nakago-ana. With my cheness it was on the corner of the same' channel where it was very thin.


My guess is that it could be a defect in the wood where it split, or it could be that the nakago-ana is wide enough / too wide on ha and mune sides, so there's no pressure there.

Other thoughts?

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## Jerry G.

It is for exactly this reason that I am now in the process of making my first tsuka, in this case, to remount a PC Busido tanto blade that I extracted from it's painfully fugly brass tsuka(which at least wasn't cracked  :Big Grin:  ).

 :Embarrassment:   (sidebar: the gold mekugi/button thingies on the Bushido tanto are made of <gasp> _plastic_ glued to a bamboo pin)  :Embarrassment:  

Had I access to an industrial lathe, band saw, router and belt sander, the project would already be complete.  Unfortunately, I am having to go about this task entirely with hand tools [read: old-school/traditional] including a saw, planes, wood chisels, rasps, sandpaper, etc.  I bought a new hickory maul/sledge replacement handle and will be giving the completed tsuka a full same' wrap.  I even considered applying a thin, full wrap of fiberglass fabric/liquid/hardener around the wood for strength beneath the same' wrap but decided against it out of fear of making the resulting handle too thick or difficult to fit with f/k.

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## Jeff Larsen

> Honestly I have had plently of swords with cracked tsuka.  As long as you have a fuchi and a kahira and most importantly a tight wrap you really have nothing to worry about in my opinion.  The tsuka won't break due to how a tsuka is on the nakago.  The excellent design of how the pressure is around the tsuka, inside the tsuka, plus you have two steel rings (the F/K) holding the ends from "splitting".  I would not worry so much about it splitting or breaking.  It just doesn't look nice with a crack.
> 
> As for the same', I have had that before when I do my own tsukas.  It is supposed to be as glossy as the other side but it either was not lacquered as heavily or lacquered at all.


IMHO I would send it back and either ask for a replacement or a refund.  Nice blade though.

Jeff

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## AdamTNesvick

> I have asked the same questions to the forges and they seem to say that the % of moisture in the wood when it is made over sea's changes. So when it arrives in the States most have shrunk as well as the saya rattle. Or it could be due to the fact that many tsuka core are just not made to each nakago and tapped on to pressure fit but splits the wood. Just my two cents.
> Regards
> Brian


I'm in full agreement with Brian on this, thats the reason my Shura went for a new core and rewrap.  Damn cracks (Thats twice now, on the Cheness "redesigned" Tsukas)

I would happily pay $50 more for the Tsuka to be fit RIGHT, its not that hard folks, C'mon.

Oh well, I guess I will just have to buy swords from Brian himself then.  He does do nice work...   :Big Grin:

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## Spencer Schehr

> Honestly I have had plently of swords with cracked tsuka.  As long as you have a fuchi and a kahira and most importantly a tight wrap you really have nothing to worry about in my opinion.  The tsuka won't break due to how a tsuka is on the nakago.  The excellent design of how the pressure is around the tsuka, inside the tsuka, plus you have two steel rings (the F/K) holding the ends from "splitting".  I would not worry so much about it splitting or breaking.  It just doesn't look nice with a crack.



So, you think a tsuka with a crack is fine? 



....

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## AdamTNesvick

> Well, see, there is part of my concern. How many are cracking on installation and how many are cracking on removal. I'm not sure where the rubber mallet on the tsuba routine started but it doesn't make good sense in applied physics. It may seem like the way to go but the broader faced the hammer and the wider the tsuba, the more leverage you have working against you. Would you guys consider starting to use hardwood blocks that will apply force against the seppa, alongside the habaki? A rubber mallet is also robbing you of energy. A good plastic faced or hardwood mallet, used in conjunction with a wood drift (block) against the seppa should be a lot more efficient. You can even make a tool (slotted board) that will apply force to both sides of the impact area (seppa). You can get the general idea of this concept by looking at the nakago nuki that Fred Lohman sells.
> 
> When you tap against the tsuba, you are driving the opposite side up into the base of the habaki and the habaki up into the machi. I'm not saying all the cracked tsuka are a result of removal technique but have to wonder if some might be.
> 
> I will freely admit my next would be my first but I'm speaking from experience in automotive and general machine repair knowledge. Anyone that has chased a bearing race down a shaft understands where I'm coming from. Anyone thinking about leverage and equal and opposite reaction should catch my drift (pun fully intended).
> 
> One could conceivably use my technique with sword and block in one hand and the mallet in the other. Yes, watch your fingers and palm on the edge (even wrap the whole mess in a rag). I'm not sure if I'm remembering correctly but I think it is Keith that has a special name for the fork gizmo.
> 
> Cheers
> ...


Glen, I have worked on my tsuka removal skills, The habaki got botched because I kinda tried doing it the wrong way due to frustration, now I have a splint and mallet, and they come off somewhat easier.

Funny thing though, I bought a Ronin from Mr. Drier, and the tsuka came off with 4 light to medium blows on the splint.  I had to literally beat the tsuka off both Cheness swords I have owned.  The ronin also has no cracks, and fits the blade exactly, and Brian only charges 300 for a sword. $20 more than Mr. Chen charges for a Tenchi, and the same as he charges for a Kaze.

Why is it so friggin hard for people to fit a tsuka properly?

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## B.Blackwell

Well I contacted Loren and so far recieved one reply asking for pictures. I sent the pictures, waited a couple days then sent another e-mail and have not heard back.

 When I had a cracked tsuka on my Cheness, I received contact back from Paul within 8 hours and within two days he had sent me a new tsuka that I could try and file to fit. I filed, it fitted, and is now as snug and fits great. That kind of customer service is great and makes the problems seem non-existent when remedied that fast.

 This whole several days before a response thing makes me wonder if he cares....

Blackwell

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## Tom Lim

If I remember correctly there was a post not to long ago from Loren saying that he is understaffed and such. Maybe he needs more man power to take care of the business.

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## RHGraham

> I hate to suggest this, but could the rash of cracked tsukas be related, at least in part, to the profusion of cheap swords?  
> 
> I have no idea if the particular sword in question is a cheap sword or not, but frankly the swords that this seems to be occuring on are, well, cheap.


Yeah, I'll be tipping my hat to Tinker on that one.

I reckon for under 1000 bucks if it holds together at all you're doing good. Maybe some of us swordsmiths see things differently from our angle but very little of what I see coming from overseas has much "internal" quality, if you could call it that, nor would I expect it too in that price range, and after the 100% plus middle-man markup especially. ( at least)

To see them as anything other than "starter swords", and to expect alot, is a mistake IMO.

In any case, a crack in the tsuka core isn't a good thing regardless of the wrap over it. But that's what happens when generic tsukas are forced onto nakago, pounded on in some cases. Maybe if you can force some carpenter's glue into the crack it'll be ok.

The force it would take ( again IMO) to crack the core by hitting the tsuba with anything would have to be enourmous. It shouldn't crack it. Might wreck the tsuba/habaki depending on how much care was taken, but I think it's almost certain the core would have been cracked when the tsuka was forced onto the nakago.

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## B.Blackwell

> Yeah, I'll be tipping my hat to Tinker on that one.
> 
> I reckon for under 1000 bucks if it holds together at all you're doing good. Maybe some of us swordsmiths see things differently from our angle but very little of what I see coming from overseas has much "internal" quality, if you could call it that, nor would I expect it too in that price range, and after the 100% plus middle-man markup especially. ( at least)
> 
> To see them as anything other than "starter swords", and to expect alot, is a mistake IMO.
> 
> In any case, a crack in the tsuka core isn't a good thing regardless of the wrap over it. But that's what happens when generic tsukas are forced onto nakago, pounded on in some cases. Maybe if you can force some carpenter's glue into the crack it'll be ok.
> 
> The force it would take ( again IMO) to crack the core by hitting the tsuba with anything would have to be enourmous. It shouldn't crack it. Might wreck the tsuba/habaki depending on how much care was taken, but I think it's almost certain the core would have been cracked when the tsuka was forced onto the nakago.


Thanks Mr.Graham and I agree with both yourself and Tinker.

I expect a certain degree of quality control when I spend a certain amount of money, but I also expect issues to be resolved within a timely matter whether I spend .01$ or 1,000.00$.

All I want is a new tsuka core so I can get a custom wrap done up for it to match a tanto I have in the works. I'm easy, send me a F%^@ing tsuka core and I'm happy.

Oh well, live and learn. I should have known from the get go, I had communication issues with him before I even made a purchase  :Smilie: 

Blackwell

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## RHGraham

> Thanks Mr.Graham and I agree with both yourself and Tinker.
> 
> I expect a certain degree of quality control when I spend a certain amount of money, but I also expect issues to be resolved within a timely matter whether I spend .01$ or 1,000.00$.
> 
> All I want is a new tsuka core so I can get a custom wrap done up for it to match a tanto I have in the works. I'm easy, send me a F%^@ing tsuka core and I'm happy.
> 
> Oh well, live and learn. I should have known from the get go, I had communication issues with him before I even made a purchase 
> 
> Blackwell


Sorry If I sounded like I was being critical, I agree with your take on quality controll. I find the whole thing frustrating as well, it's not so much fun to compete with companies that use words like "battle ready" or "traditional" or "made for the dojo" when the truth is far from that, and they have unlimited marketing resources and don't let little things like "truth" stand in thier way.  Generic saya, generic tsuka, generic blades, all jammed together, thrown in the crate, onto the boat. Of course some of it is cracked, of course some of them are damaged/rattle/fall apart. I guess my wish would be for people to simply see them for what they eally are and not keep putting them on pedastals as being something more than a mass-produced low-bid-contractor-made sword. That's all they are.
One of these days, one of them will come apart in somebodies hands, and somebody will get hurt.
Then what? 

Anyway, hope it works out for you... hey, you got a snap-on dead-blow... so you know tools, why not make your own core?
I bet you can do a better job than most of the import companies guys do.

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## B.Blackwell

> Sorry If I sounded like I was being critical, I agree with your take on quality controll. I find the whole thing frustrating as well, it's not so much fun to compete with companies that use words like "battle ready" or "traditional" or "made for the dojo" when the truth is far from that, and they have unlimited marketing resources and don't let little things like "truth" stand in thier way.  Generic saya, generic tsuka, generic blades, all jammed together, thrown in the crate, onto the boat. Of course some of it is cracked, of course some of them are damaged/rattle/fall apart. I guess my wish would be for people to simply see them for what they eally are and not keep putting them on pedastals as being something more than a mass-produced low-bid-contractor-made sword. That's all they are.
> One of these days, one of them will come apart in somebodies hands, and somebody will get hurt.
> Then what? 
> 
> Anyway, hope it works out for you... hey, you got a snap-on dead-blow... so you know tools, why not make your own core?
> I bet you can do a better job than most of the import companies guys do.


Mr.Graham,

 Please no apologies needed  :Smilie:  I did not take it as critical and I very much appreciate you taking the time to confer with me! 

 I appreciate your vote of confidence but unfortunately I don't have time. I have all the tools and resources in the world, including an entire family of wood workers but I don't have the time. 1 wife + 3 Kids in diapers = Busy as hell  :Big Grin: 

Blackwell

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## Travis Morris

1 wife + 3 kids - time on the forum = new tsuka core.

JUST KIDDING!  :Big Grin:

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## sal v.

geese, i just love the oni forge shobu-zukuri...makes me want to go out and buy 10! lol, my favorite zukuri  :Big Grin:

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## Timo Qvintus

> geese, i just love the oni forge shobu-zukuri...makes me want to go out and buy 10! lol, my favorite zukuri


Actually, Loren was selling these in batches of 10 swords each on eBay for less than half the retail-price..

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## sal v.

> Actually, Loren was selling these in batches of 10 swords each on eBay for less than half the retail-price..


yep,  that's why i said it  :Big Grin:  i went on one time and saw all these shobu zukuris!! made e want to flip out of my seat that they were going for so low.

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## J Hashey

Well, I have one of this model and my overall impression is not good. You do indeed get what you pay for.

The good: All the lines on the blade are laser-straight. The fittings fit well. I like the copper seppa, and the simple tsuba is an exercise in understated elegance.

The bad: Cotton ito, unevenly wrapped. Paneled same (not that I'd expect a full wrap on a cheap sword). Tsuka just won't come off (did previous owner glue it on?) Shinogi is a bit round towards kissaki, could be much crisper. Polish is 6 to 800 grit max, looks like some of the etchant for the *fake* hamon got places it wasn't supposed to be (basically I have to finish polishing it).

All these problems, I was expecting most of them when I bought it. Overall it looks nicer than I expected. Just the same, I ain't swinging this sucker around until it has a nice, solid tsuka, maybe with a full same or even a wire wrap.

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## B.Blackwell

This Saga continues.....

I finally got loren to take the blade back and he promised a replacement. I told him that I was worried about sending it to him in fear of never hearing from him again or seeing any kind of product make it back my way. He said it would take him one week to return product back to me and that he would "hook me up" for the trouble.

Well so far it has been 2 months since he received my sword. Everytime I contact him he sends me a reply stating. "I'm out of state when I get back I will check on it". Those are the replys I get when I write a novel telling him how dissapointed I am.

So far in the last two weeks I cannot get a reply at all back....

This so far has been, by far the worst experience I have ever had with an online retailer since the birth of the internet.

Blackwell

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## Tom Lim

Man, I am sorry that you are going thru this. It sucks.

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## Jordan T

This is just an opinion and not advice, but get your money back. It's shame Oni forge has gone this way, it had alot of support here, now I wouldn't go near them.

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## B.Blackwell

I've requested either any of these things to make me a happy customer and be rid of me...

1.) Return my original shobu
2.) Refund my Money
3.) Send new sword w/o defects

I have been patient, polite and tactful to this point. I am at my wits end. Hmm, you know what Northridge, Ca is not very far from here......

Blackwell

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## J. Hedgespeth

Man...That is nothing but rough.  Hope all turns out in your favor.  I was wondering what had happened.  

Sad to hear that Loren is out of his "playing field".

Good Luck B.!   :Smilie:

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## Dale Joseph

Unfortunately, this has been the standard method of operation for Loren. He has promised to return a defective sword that I sent back that was in stock and took him 2 months to ship, after constant badgering, and have yet to receive it back. This has been an on going issue since March. Currently reversing the charges with credit card and losing his number and email.

Good luck in your endeavor. If it has been like most people that have done business with Loren here lately it won't turn out good.

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## Mat Rous

Unfortunately, this thing happens all to often. It took 9 months to resolve the issue (i.e. my money back).

As I've mentioned on other threads, A fancy website does not quarantee good customer service once the money has changed hands.

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Anthony Sowinski

> Well I contacted Loren and so far recieved one reply asking for pictures. I sent the pictures, waited a couple days then sent another e-mail and have not heard back.
> 
>  When I had a cracked tsuka on my Cheness, I received contact back from Paul within 8 hours and within two days he had sent me a new tsuka that I could try and file to fit. I filed, it fitted, and is now as snug and fits great. That kind of customer service is great and makes the problems seem non-existent when remedied that fast.
> 
>  This whole several days before a response thing makes me wonder if he cares....
> 
> Blackwell


There was a thread a few months ago dealing with Lorens response to emails and customer problems.  A half dozen or more posters, including myself, stated that once Oni Forge had the money, Loren usually would not respond at all, or respond with curt replies that did not fully address the issues.  These were all true personally stories.  Mysteriously, that thread has been deleted.  

I bought 6 swords from Loren a few months back, and my problem was the ship time, IIRC 6 weeks or more.  After I paid he never responded to my email inquiries about them.  I finally recieved them, and though two have extremely sticky scabbards, the quality was pretty good.  In retrospect, I would rather have saved myself worry and bought from cheness.  Though more expensive, his response is excellent.

On all of the swords, the tsuka did feel rather thin IMO.  The new cheness tsuka I ordered is much thicker, but as expected, the channels are a weak point.  My next blade will probably be a cheness sent somewhere for a professionally done tsuka core.

This is at least the second thread detailing Lorens customer service issues _that I know of_.  Who knows how many others have been deleted?  IMO doing so in the first place was a terrible mistake, when people come here every day to 'check out' retailers and swords.  Hiding a retailers issues is almost complicit, and as such could be dangerous to SF.

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## B.Blackwell

> There was a thread a few months ago dealing with Lorens response to emails and customer problems.  A half dozen or more posters, including myself, stated that once Oni Forge had the money, Loren usually would not respond at all, or respond with curt replies that did not fully address the issues.  These were all true personally stories.  Mysteriously, that thread has been deleted.  
> 
> I bought 6 swords from Loren a few months back, and my problem was the ship time, IIRC 6 weeks or more.  After I paid he never responded to my email inquiries about them.  I finally recieved them, and though two have extremely sticky scabbards, the quality was pretty good.  In retrospect, I would rather have saved myself worry and bought from cheness.  Though more expensive, his response is excellent.
> 
> On all of the swords, the tsuka did feel rather thin IMO.  The new cheness tsuka I ordered is much thicker, but as expected, the channels are a weak point.  My next blade will probably be a cheness sent somewhere for a professionally done tsuka core.
> 
> This is at least the second thread detailing Lorens customer service issues _that I know of_.  Who knows how many others have been deleted?  IMO doing so in the first place was a terrible mistake, when people come here every day to 'check out' retailers and swords.  Hiding a retailers issues is almost complicit, and as such could be dangerous to SF.



Anthony,

 Here is the thread. http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=79855
It's been locked though, for reasons I do not know.

J,

 Thanks for the support.

Blackwell

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## B.Blackwell

Holy crap...here's another thread closed for no reason on this issue, no statement from Mods or anything..http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=79746

This is just plain sad, it's starting to look like Loren has friend's in high places...this is so dissapointing....

Blackwell

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## Anthony Sowinski

That is NOT the thread in question, though thanks for the link.  The thread I spoke of was at least two pages, was started by Scott Long, and had the personal experinces of many posters in it.  IIRC Loren may have posted once or twice in response to a few of the posters, ignored the majority of his customers posting in that (now deleted) thread.  In this thread: Trying to Contact OniForge another locked thread, Scott asks why his thread was deleted.  If he recieved a response from the SF moderators, he did not share it there.

So, we have at least four threads now _that I know of_ describing Oni Forge's service issues, one of which was deleted from the boards, two of which were locked.  All of them were customers who were relating their own true experiences, on a board where thousands come looking for just that sort of information.

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## J. Hedgespeth

> Holy crap...here's another thread closed for no reason on this issue, no statement from Mods or anything..http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=79746
> 
> This is just plain sad, it's starting to look like Loren has friend's in high places...this is so dissapointing....
> 
> Blackwell


Actually B...This thread had a final post that insights flaming..Which will cause the thread to be closed. No matter how true, it is the way it is expressed...Similar to the old wild west.."Let's get a posse' together and hang'em ourselves!". That type of expression is better left to PM's. 

However, this example:

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=79855

Had no apparent reason. This could have gone on forever on a Cheness issue, but Oni Forge..Your statement of Loren having friends in high places is pretty certain.

I like Loren's swords, which is where I am currently at in the scope of my swordish childhood...But like many children I am disappointed once again and if this is the case, I will continue my way upward to more responsible collecting and buy from more responsible sellers.

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## michael wilson

SFI has to protect itself from claims in the courts of libel and slander  - hence the closing of threads that hint at Lorens 
dis-honesty and bad business practice .

Its one thing to have threads that question cheness's tsuka issues 
thats all ok and above board .

But when you have threads that question a persons honesty with 
people offering up character impressions that maybe wrong - maybe right  - well then your opening yourself up to a libel action.

discussing cheness & tsuka may make the factory focus more on quality  - discussing someones honesty may ruin their future ability to make a living . 

I am not defending Loren  - far from it , but lets drop the SFI is complicit stuff as its not true and will get this thread locked .

Mick

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## J. Hedgespeth

I'm Chill'in

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## B.Blackwell

> SFI has to protect itself from claims in the courts of libel and slander  - hence the closing of threads that hint at Lorens 
> dis-honesty and bad business practice .
> 
> Its one thing to have threads that question cheness's tsuka issues 
> thats all ok and above board .
> 
> But when you have threads that question a persons honesty with 
> people offering up character impressions that maybe wrong - maybe right  - well then your opening yourself up to a libel action.
> 
> ...


Normally moderators post why they are closing the thread. If people are out of line then they will be none the wiser till someone says something.

My point is, I know Loren is probably just busy, and as I have told him in many e-mails I understand how crazy it is to run a small business. Been there done that, I just want him to throw me a freaking bone on what's going on that's all.

Blackwell

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## B Dreier

I would like to just ask based on the good comment of the threads being locked due to protect SFI from Libel and Slander why is it that others can have the character and business practices be subject to disspute and personal comments made about deception, lying and many other implications with no recourse to those threads.
Brian D

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## Dale Joseph

This is the legal definition of slander...
SLANDER - A false defamation (expressed in spoken words, signs, or gestures) which injures the character or reputation of the person defamed; distinguished from libel.

This is the legal definition of libel...
A false publication, as in writing, print, signs, or pictures, that damages a person's reputation. The act of presenting such material to the public

Unfortunately, as much as we would like them to be, none of what is written falls under these legeal definitions. From my experience and from others on and off this board everything that has been said, though in a negative manner I am sure can be proven and backed up with proof. At least on my end and with others that I know personally who have dealt with Loren. 

I wish Loren the best, but his current business practices speak for themselves.

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## Ian Alexander

Well I jsut e-mailed Loren and Left a message on his phone stating that if he doesn't refund me in Full the $2800 I sent him. (As I have not received anything not my product nor any replies and/or updates) I will notify both the northridge authorities as well as my own.
I suggest you guys do the same as its clear he's not gonna pull through any time soon.
Quite Frankly I'm fed up. I used to be one of the guys that would stand for loren, but I have now realized that I was wrong . And as Such, Enough is enough.

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## B.Blackwell

> Well I jsut e-mailed Loren and Left a message on his phone stating that if he doesn't refund me in Full the $2800 I sent him. (As I have not received anything not my product nor any replies and/or updates) I will notify both the northridge authorities as well as my own.
> I suggest you guys do the same as its clear he's not gonna pull through any time soon.
> Quite Frankly I'm fed up. I used to be one of the guys that would stand for loren, but I have now realized that I was wrong . And as Such, Enough is enough.


Ian,

 Sent you a PM, let's get together on this.

Blackwell

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## B.Blackwell

Holy crap people this is way off topic. I would appreciate it if you guys would continue this discussion in a new thread. Thank You  :Smilie: 

Blackwell

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## Tom Lim

Sorry B. you know how this gets started. One little detour and then, bam. But back to topic. Any news from Loren or are you seeking other avenues now?

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## B.Blackwell

> Sorry B. you know how this gets started. One little detour and then, bam. But back to topic. Any news from Loren or are you seeking other avenues now?


No problem Tom, I understand completely  :Smilie:   :Smilie: 

Well I got some replies back from Loren but everytime I try to get a tracking# (because he swears he shipped it) he doesn't respond. Going to call him today and see if I can incite a response.

Blackwell

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## Shany G.

B, could it be that the tsuka you've ordered came from an old garage where all spare-parts kept for later "customer replacement parts" issue? Since we really don't know what's going on in the background, I would re-check it with the supplier!

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## michael wilson

I do apologise if I sounded like I was defending Oni forge or defending the locking of threads without explanation , 

indeed my only desire is to keep the thread open as along as possible so if its open and on the first page others can read whats going on here as well  - 

until I started reading the " is oni forge closing " threads and read what was happening with Mr Blackwell and other forumites orders 
I almost parted with $499 for an oni kyiomaru  - that would have been money tossed away by the looks of things . 

hence my eagerness to keep this thread open and on the 1st page.

I will say thsi though  - if a business knows its got no way of making delivery or making good on outstanding orders  - to carry 
on accepting payment for new orders isnt just self destructive 
its actually something far more serious and the proper authorities 
need to be notified . 

I do sincerely apologise if I sounded like an advocate of deception and bad business practices .

Mick

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## J. Hedgespeth

Been watching the ebay sales and it is taking almost a month for the buyers to get their purchases.  But, they ARE getting their purchases.  So, why aren't you?  That would be my question.

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## B.Blackwell

> B, could it be that the tsuka you've ordered came from an old garage where all spare-parts kept for later "customer replacement parts" issue? Since we really don't know what's going on in the background, I would re-check it with the supplier!


Shany,

 Not sure what you are talking about here. I'm not getting another tsuka re-sent to me. He's supposed to give me an entirely new sword, which is what I requested. I have also marked the old one in case he tries to return it with a new tsuka I will know.

Mick,

 No problem man  :Smilie:   :Smilie:  I totally understand why you brought that point up and I appreciate it because it made me take a step back and make sure I didn't say something that would later get me in trouble. I too want to keep this thread open as long as possible, people need to know what's going on. 

J,

 The e-bay sales are getting their stuff because otherwise he would get negative feedback if he ****ed it up on that end. Buying directly from the site there is no way for us to rate him in any way.

 In short : It is totally unfair for this to be happening to good, honest hard working folks like myself, Ian and others. For christs sake Ian is out thousands of dollars with no reply from Loren for several months maybe even a year I think.

Loren has till the close of business today to make a miracle happen, or pull a tracking number out of his arse.

On thursday afternoon there will be a coordinated effort to inform authorities and the Better Business Bureau.

Blackwell

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## J. Hedgespeth

> J,
> 
> The e-bay sales are getting their stuff because otherwise he would get negative feedback if he ****ed it up on that end. Buying directly from the site there is no way for us to rate him in any way.
> 
> In short : It is totally unfair for this to be happening to good, honest hard working folks like myself, Ian and others. For christs sake Ian is out thousands of dollars with no reply from Loren for several months maybe even a year I think.
> 
> Loren has till the close of business today to make a miracle happen, or pull a tracking number out of his arse.
> 
> On thursday afternoon there will be a coordinated effort to inform authorities and the Better Business Bureau.
> ...


PM being sent.....

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## Tom Lim

> Shany,
> 
>  Not sure what you are talking about here. I'm not getting another tsuka re-sent to me. He's supposed to give me an entirely new sword, which is what I requested. I have also marked the old one in case he tries to return it with a new tsuka I will know.
> 
> Mick,
> 
>  No problem man   I totally understand why you brought that point up and I appreciate it because it made me take a step back and make sure I didn't say something that would later get me in trouble. I too want to keep this thread open as long as possible, people need to know what's going on. 
> 
> J,
> ...


I hate seeing when things like this getting out of hand. I think there was another incident that was similar to this but with a different vendor. This is what happens when communication fails. Blackwell, I hope everything comes thru for you in the end buddy. I am truly sorry that you are going thru this.

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## sal v.

So it seems that oni forge makes some great blades....but the customer service is in need of a little maintenance, is that right?

i would like to order a tonbo from them....

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## Timo Qvintus

> So it seems that oni forge makes some great blades....but the customer service is in need of a little maintenance, is that right?
> 
> i would like to order a tonbo from them....


FWIW, Tonbo is discontinued and sold out..

Regarding what an Oni Performance-series kat can take, this is what Loren told me last year when I asked what can a Tonbo be used to cut with:




> ... bamboo, tatami, wood, meat, whatever.
> We had one test that caused some edge damage from a cow femur so thats probably the limit.
> 
> Loren

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## B.Blackwell

Got the sword in today finally. I opened the box just to find the same damage to the tsuba and seppa like the first shobu I got. I mean it is right there if you just look at it, it's not that hard.

You see, when I got my first shobu it had damage to the tsuba and seppa area. I contacted Loren and after months of waiting he sent me the replacement parts. That is when I dissasembled it and found the cracked tsuka. So now, here we are starting all over again............ :Mad: 

He also said he would send me something nicer for all the trouble, yet I get the same piece of sh*t.

Blackwell

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## Tom Lim

B. Blackwell, maybe you should just return the sword and get your money back rather than keep it. What ever you decide to do next is at your discretion. The old adage of you get what you pay for just sucks at this point but it rings true. It is not uncommon for people to run into problems such as cracked tsuka due to poor assemby and changes in humidity once the peice travels over seas. Forgive me for this suggestion B., but maybe it would be better for you to get in touch with custom smiths like Rick and ADC and start saving for a peice from them. I have several from them both and I can attest to their soundness. The unfortunate thing is that you would think that after all the waiting that you have done, you would have resolved things with Loren. My question is that whether or not he checks the swords before shipping them out. What do you think B.?

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## Tim Westover

That's a shame B. Does it seem like the damage occurred during production?  Is it possible that it is the same sword and fittings but with a different tsuka?

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## michael wilson

I seriously doubt he values the good will of his customers  - he cant what with the number of mid range sword customers waiting 
for even just a reply from him let alone a sword they paid cash for 

Whats happening to B here with his shobu is bad business practice 
 - at least he could have QC checked this one to make sure it had none of the original defects that started this off  - but it looks like he hasnt did that even. 

I believe his high end L6 customers get the run around as well so 
at least your not alone B .


I apologise for taking part in the jacking this thread recieved B  - 
not something I usually do  - it went on so long I thought it was 
a seperate Oni thread at times  -  sorry man.

Mick

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## B.Blackwell

To everyone,

I appreciate all of your replys, thoughts, and Ideas. Having shoulders to lean on in troubled times is comforting, and I thank you all for that.

Tim,

 The damage was definetly done during assembly. I can tell it is not the same sword because the blades profile is drastically different.

Tom,

 I think I may have to go that option. The reason I tried to get this resolved from the get go instead of just say F*ck it, is because I want to sell of my production stuff. I'm sick of it! I am looking into the future at Nihon-to and maybe some custom stuff, that's it. No more chinese crap I'm fed up with it....

 Well, one exception, I am going to keep my Ronin that I got from Brian, that blade is absolutely beautiful and I will never part with it  :Smilie:   :Smilie: 

Mick,

 No worries mate!  :Big Grin: 

Loren wants to send me another. I don't know I might just ask for my money back, but then I will be out a total of $20+ in return shipping expenses.
Would be nice if he would send me a tengu line blade, that would even things up a bit.

Blackwell

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## J. Hedgespeth

B....It looks like the only person that is going to get off the crapper in this situation is you.  Sorry to hear that.  Good luck with your pursuits.  I am not too far from growing out of my lower end stuff too.

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## michael wilson

Its issues llike this that make people see production swords in such a negative light  - so is Loren up and running with everything back to normal now ? 

I really hope so  - the customer base and good will Oni forge had 
at the begginning of the year was amazing  - he had 'da buzz' - to 
steal one of tinks phrases . 

I thought what Loren did by introducing different sugata like the kyomaru and the shobu was great for the katana community as a whole  - it opened up people to a lot more than the standard 
shinogi zukuri blade . 

Mick

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## B.Blackwell

Hey guys,

 Good news, Loren came through for me and resolved this issue. No more shobu but I did get something very nice with a dragonfly theme  :Big Grin: 

 It seems to me, at least on my end Loren is trying to make ammends. He's been responsive and helpful, which is a very nice change.

 Now that I see something from his tengu line I am much more impressed than the hannya line and wish I had gone that route to begin with, not just with Oni-Forge but with all companys I have dealt with. It is true you get what you pay for..(for the most part at least, in rare cases you get more than you paid for).

 I hope some of you who are new to this industry/hobby/profession realize the mistake I made. I thought getting two swords for my money was even better than getting one nicer sword for my money. I cheaped out and went for quantity, and I lost. I no doubt think there is a market there for the sub$200 swords but I will no longer be a part of it  :Smilie: 

 Thanks again to you all for your support and chiming on the subject, I believe we can all learn a great deal from this and maybe we can get the production sword market to "step it up".

Blackwell

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## Timo Qvintus

Glad to hear that this came to a happy ending.. (?)

I also hope this means Oni is beginning to pull their act together again. The last six months has no doubt done damage to their hard-earned reputation, it'll take a while to fix that. I think Loren should post a thread on SFI about what's happened and what's gonna change..

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## Steven B.

Glad to hear everything worked out for you. Oni has some really nice looking things I would like to get but after reading this thread I'm not sure I'm comfortable sending them my money.

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## B.Blackwell

> Glad to hear everything worked out for you. Oni has some really nice looking things I would like to get but after reading this thread I'm not sure I'm comfortable sending them my money.


Oni does have some nice pieces. He also offers some nice blade prfiles and designs that others don't. If you are going to purchase from him just make sure you know all there is up front..

Is it in stock??
How Long to Ship/Recieve it??
Can I get a tracking number right away??

Those are the questions you should be asking Loren, and just stay on top of him and I think you will be ok. Loren is by no means from what I can tell a dis-honest person, I think he is just very busy and sidetracked.

Blackwell

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## Steven B.

> Oni does have some nice pieces. He also offers some nice blade prfiles and designs that others don't. If you are going to purchase from him just make sure you know all there is up front..
> 
> Is it in stock??
> How Long to Ship/Recieve it??
> Can I get a tracking number right away??
> 
> Those are the questions you should be asking Loren, and just stay on top of him and I think you will be ok. Loren is by no means from what I can tell a dis-honest person, I think he is just very busy and sidetracked.
> 
> Blackwell


Thanks for the input. I'm still a little hesitent but I did email Loren the other day and he got back to me in less than 24hrs and he did say the particular piece I'm looking at will take a few months to get if I order it.

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