# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Book Reviews >  Sword Fighters of British India

## Mark McMorrow

Sword Fighters of British India...

----------


## John Hart

All,

The above title is available from lulu.com, either as a "real" book or as an electronic download.  I have recently purchased the latter, and wondered if forumites might be interested in my (subjective) observations:

As its name suggests, the book covers the subject of the use of the sword in British India.  It is basically an illustrated volume of reminiscences and quotations from original source material.  It doesn't claim to put forward any new theories or break new ground, and certainly does not cover the actual patterns of swords in use.  It is rather a set of eye-witness accounts concerning hand-to-hand combat with swords in the period roughly covering the initial conquest and the subsequent maintenance of the British Raj.

The book has a lot of illustrations from contemporary publications (books and magazines) showing sword fights and melees; unfortunately none of these is captioned (and one or two are duplicated), so other than adding atmosphere they don't really add much value to the text.  Also, because the illustrations are from non-specialist publications, the artwork is frequently inaccurate (the British swords being used often bearing no resemblance to actual patterns in use at the time).

There are however a lot of good eye-witness accounts of swords being used, and the author has amassed some excellent source material, including personal memoirs, private correspondence and contemporary magazine publications.  All are attributed, which adds authority to the quotes, and the author has usefully employed several differing accounts of some of the actions described, demonstrating the difficulty of obtaining a "true" picture of what actually happened in combat, even from people who were actually there.

The book has no index (a real minus point, this, since all officers are named and the book would otherwise be a good source for checking whether that new sword you've just purchased  belonged to anyone mentioned!).  In addition it ends rather abruptly with no sense of a conclusion or rounding off, and this gives it a slightly unfinished feel to the text.

The proof-reading and editing are very good (I didn't notice any typos), although it might have been good to have the actual quotes in italics so it would be easier to differentiate them from the author's own comments.  The latter are minimal and he is content to let the subject material speak for itself (an approach which other budding authors would do well to consider  :Smilie: ).

As swords of the Raj are one of my specialist areas of interest, I was expecting to spot factual errors on some of the sword-related detail.  Actually I didn't spot any mistakes to speak of (although at one point the author seems to think that Wilkinson swords were made in Birmingham), and this meant that I wasn't continually being distracted by jarring errors of fact.

All in all, I'd consider the electronic download good value for the price (less than £4.00), but given the limitations mentioned above I probably wouldn't bother with the paper version.

Hope this helps,

John

----------


## L. Braden

I see that SWORD FIGHTERS OF BRITISH INDIA is now available from Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and other online booksellers. I don't understand how Steven Dick paid Lulu $29.67 for shipping and handling. I ordered the book via Priority Mail (as good as UPS and FedEx), paid only $9.52 for S. & H., and had it in 2 days. 
   As for the artwork in the book being frequently inaccurate re the patterns of swords in use at a particular time, it should be noted that many officers of the mid-19th century were using swords (often inherited or gifted) dating from the Napoleonic period or even before, and ditto those of the 18th century; that many Asian warriors were armed with remounted European cavalry sabres dating from the same period; that Arab warriors in Africa and India were armed with genuine Ferraras and other swords (e.g., Toledos) that dated from the time of the Crusades; etc. With few exceptions, artists were particularly careful about details by consulting military authorities, knowing that they would otherwise be criticized for inaccuracies.
   Wilkinson swords were evidently made in London (steel from Birmingham?); but perhaps Mr. Kinsley thought that the allusion to Birmingham also implied Wilkinson, since Wilkinson blades were sometimes neither better nor worse than those that were manufactured in Birmingham and Sheffield: synonymous with inferior steel in the popular literature.
   All in all, John Hart presented a fair and balanced and EXCELLENT review.

----------


## Steven Dick

Received my copy of Sword Fighter of British India from Amazon and read it. 

The book certainly seems to make a case for the edge being superior to the point in mounted combat. Time after time "giving point" proves totally inadequate for preventing a counter blow. I also wonder about the number of swords that are said to have broken in close-combat. I understand no blade is infallible but I would have thought the average issue sword would have been stronger than that.  They certainly look stronger than that when you handle them. 

About all these people being "clove from crown to teeth" and "clove from head to belt." Are these exaggerations? Several references have examples of skulls from medieval battle fields showing head wounds from what would probably have been much larger blades. Frankly, I always been surprised at how little damage was done to the bone.  None come close to being clove from crown to teeth.   

Highly recommend the book to any one interested in this subject.

----------


## L. Braden

Evidently, even the best of swords failed if they struck a solid object (like bone or armor) the wrong way--without the edge leading truly.

I can't speak for medieval broadswords in European warfare, but I have read a number of eyewitness accounts of the effects of these weapons in the hands of Arab warriors, as well as of claymores throughout history; and unless they are all exaggerations, which I doubt, these weapons, if properly wielded with strength and skill, could split a man from crown to crotch. The same has also been said of the Gurkha kukri, which has a heavy and well-balanced scimitar-like blade.

As for the lighter tulwar, I too thought at first that some of the accounts of its effects might be exaggerations--except that there are too many credible eyewitness accounts, including those of surgeons.

Am glad that you finally got the book and enjoyed it!  (By the way, I'm credibly informed that the author is working on a sequel.)

----------


## L. Braden

I should have added that unlike Asians, Europeans had a long history of blunt swords, which probably accounts for some of the blunt-force traumas found in medieval skulls. But when European swords were kept razor-sharp, here were some of the results: "I dare be bold to say, there were scarce ever such strokes given in Europe, as were given that day by the Highlanders. Many of General Mackay's officers and soldiers were cut down through the skull and neck to the very breast; others had skulls cut off above their ears, like night-caps; some soldiers had both their bodies and cross-belts cut through at one blow; pikes and small swords were cut like willows; and whoever doubts of this, may consult the witnesses of the tragedy." (Memoirs of Lord Dundee.) The Scots generally maintained their swords better than the English, which is why they preferred Ferrara claymores and did extraordinary butchery with them. And here are some of the effects of razor-sharp Ferraras and other European-made broadswords in the hands of Arab warriors: "Their long, thin and very sharp swords, of which they were complete masters, gave them great advantage over our men. ... I saw some of the Arabs seize the sepoys by their belts with the left hand, and strike off their heads with the right. ... In one man, the face had been removed from the rest of the head by a single stroke; in another, the whole of the head above the lower jaw had been struck off; another had received two blows at the same moment, which had cut out the fore-part of the head between them." (Tait's Edinburgh Magazine, 1852.) As for tulwars, the testimonies of a couple of surgeons, plus a number of other authentic narratives quoted in Sword Fighters of British India, are evidential enough. But I'll add this: "Terrific is the force that can be put into a skilfully directed blow ..., well exemplified in a story told me by Henderson, the well-known professor of swordsmanship, who was present at the battle of Chillianwallah, in the year 1849," re a single combat between a Sikh and a Briton: "though mortally wounded, the Sikh instantaneously, with his razor-edged tulwar, cleft his opponent's head in two." (Arthur H. Beavan, Marlborough House.) As for Henderson, "a well-known swordsman" and "a most powerful man": "He could with one blow cut through two sheep, and could also sever 2 3/4 inches of solid lead. Steel plates, it is recorded, six to the inch, and ordinary pokers, were severed at a blow by the same strong arm." (J. H. Settle, Anecdotes of Soldiers.) There are a number of eyewitness accounts of such swordsmanship, but enough is enough!

----------


## L. Braden

The sequel to SWORD FIGHTERS OF BRITISH INDIA, entitled SWORD FIGHTERS OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE, is now available at a bargain price EXCLUSIVELY from lulu.com. It covers every major conflict from the Napoleonic Wars to the Sudan War, including the cavalry actions at Balaklava. I think it's as good as, if not in some ways better than, the prequel. All in all, a highly entertaining and informative read. (The prequel is also now available exclusively from lulu.com in a new and cheaper edition.)
P.S. I'm having trouble getting this message through; so if it appears twice, that's why!

----------


## Thomas Powers

L.Braden; can you cite the "Europeans had a long history of blunt swords"  I have read accounts dating back to the early medieval period ("dark ages") of Europeans interested in the sharpness of their swords.

----------


## Steven Dick

Let me know when Amazon or somebody besides Lulu has it. My feelings about that company have not changed. 
I did enjoy the first book.

----------


## L. Braden

Thomas Powers:
The "blunt swords" accusation, even when it was GENERALLY without foundation but just an accuse for poor swordsmanship or whatever, has been documented in Kinsley's books. Perhaps I should have better worded it "According to certain 'authorities', Europeans had a long history of blunt swords"! I don't know any more about it than what's on record; but Kinsley DOES point out that the amount of "execution" done by European swords (e.g., at Waterloo and Balaklava) belied the accusation of such critics and observers as war correspondent W. H. Russell. Anyway, welcome to "The Defense of European Swords and Swordsmen"!

Steven Dick:
I'm informed that the book may eventually be available in paperback from Amazon. Will keep you posted. Unfortunately, those who want it from Lulu may have to wait a bit, because I hear they're having some temporary problem that prevents access to it. So much for modern technology!

----------


## L. Braden

The problem was fixed, so SWORD FIGHTERS OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE is again available from lulu.com (and will soon be available from Amazon).

----------


## David M. W.

It seams that had been solved only temporarily as book is not available again.

----------


## L. Braden

I have just checked the Lulu website, entered "Kinsley" under "Books", and it IS available! Also, it's just now available for the same price from Amazon; but it will take a while for it to get processed onto the website. (The supplier is Lulu, but you pay Amazon.)

----------


## David M. W.

It is strange. I can see the book on the search result list but when I try to add it to the cart it says that product is no longer available. Anyway I will wait till it will be available on Amazon.

----------


## L. Braden

It is now available from Amazon!
I don't know what Lulu's problem is,
unless they made a deal with Amazon
that the book would be sold only 
through them. Time will tell.

----------


## David M. W.

Unfortunately when I tried to get it from Amazon I was told that seller do not ship to Ireland. So I will have to wait for Lulu to put it back on their site.

----------


## L. Braden

I have just discovered that you can buy it via Kinsley's Storefront, but not (until the problem is fixed) via the author/title listings. That means you have to click onto the author's name, then click onto "Visit This Author's Storefront," and order from there. Ditto for SWORDSMEN OF THE RAJ, the new edition of the British India book, also due to be available from Amazon.

----------


## David M. W.

It worked. Thanks

----------


## Matt Easton

My review, here:
http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB2...ic.php?t=14019

Matt

----------


## J.G. Hopkins

Matt,
Thank you for your excellent review!  What sort of background knowledge are you suggesting?  History of India?  British swords?  Historical swordsmanship?

Thank you,
Jonathan

----------


## Matt Easton

Hi Jonathan,
A bit of everything really.
However, I understand that it is difficult for an author who is mostly compiling source material to cover this in such a concise work.  It is not a major criticism, more a caution.
The source material presented will be interesting to anyone, but will be far more useful and understandable to people with background knowledge of arms and armour, tulwars and British swords, military history of the period and 19thC military fencing.  For example; one source metions a 'cut number 5' - I know this to be a horizontal cut from the right, but most readers would probably not know that.  Equally, most readers would not know that some of the weapons shown in the images are neither British nor Indian.

Regards,
Matt

----------


## J.G. Hopkins

Just the sort of thing I wanted to know.  Thank you!

----------


## Robert Wilkinson-Latham

> It is now available from Amazon!
> I don't know what Lulu's problem is,
> unless they made a deal with Amazon
> that the book would be sold only 
> through them. Time will tell.


There is a copy listed by  an Amazon US seller (Not Amazon themselves)

A bit pricey don't you think!
£54.29
+ £2.75shipping
When an earlier post/review says electronic download is £4!

----------


## Matt Easton

I got both books (Raj and Empire) in softcover, including postage, for £21 direct from Lulu.  Despite paying in US dollars, the books were printed in the UK and therefore posted only within the UK, so no extra duties or taxes.

Matt

----------


## L. Braden

I haven't been able to read Matt's review, because his website is presently unavailable, but I can comment on his observation that "some of the weapons shown in the images are neither British nor Indian". True; but not every Briton or Indian was armed with a British or Indian sword, regulation or otherwise. Many chose to purchase their weapons from German, Persian, and other swordmakers; and of course even some patterns of British regulation swords were made in Solingen, etc.

As for the author's occasional lapse in not defining certain technical terms, I suppose that any author has a hard time deciding just how much his readers know or ought to know; and since these books were probably intended mostly for those interested in or knowledgeable about swordsmanship, he probably assumed that such terminology would be understandable. Perhaps you should never assume anything, but you also don't want to possibly insult your readers by "writing down" to them. It's a tough call!

P.S. The books are available either directly from lulu.com or indirectly via amazon.com, both of which ship to the UK, etc.
P.P.S. Subject heading should be SWORDSMEN OF THE RAJ. Sorry about that!

----------


## J.G. Hopkins

Matt,
Would you mind pasting your review to this thread?

Thank you,
Jonathan

----------


## Matt Easton

New forum, new link:
http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB3...hp?f=8&t=14019

----------


## Matt Easton

> I can comment on his observation that "some of the weapons shown in the images are neither British nor Indian". True; but not every Briton or Indian was armed with a British or Indian sword, regulation or otherwise.


My complaint is more that the author has taken images from Marey's treatise, out of context and without citation or accompanying text.  A page showing the French heavy cavalry, light cavalry and mounted artillery swords is not really useful for the reader, nor appropriate to the swords discussed in the book.  The less informed reader would not even know that these swords were French, or that they were for those branches of the French Army respecitively.  That page could have been better dedicated to a picture of British or Indian swords.




> since these books were probably intended mostly for those interested in or knowledgeable about swordsmanship, he probably assumed that such terminology would be understandable.


That is a fair comment.  Though I think that in several cases the author himself did not understand what the sources he was quoting were saying.  But that's fine - I'm glad he included them!

Matt

----------


## L. Braden

I've read Matt's excellent, fair, and balanced review, and have little to comment on other than that I don't think the author pretends to be a technical expert re swords and swordsmanship, but only a commentator based on the evidence, since his other books indicate that he's essentially an historian--and one, as Matt noted, who was clever enough to write two unique first-of-their-kind books. Despite the overwhelming evidence, fencers may think that he unfairly sides with the anti-pointers; but his books are not about fencing per se; and I can't emphasize too much that fencing and military sword fighting were not always one and the same, as swordmaster Matthew J. O'Rourke was careful to emphasize, if for no other reason than that fencers generally used the same weapons and techniques; whereas in military combat, especially in Asia and Africa, any number of weapons and techniques were encountered.

I'm informed that the changes in title and formatting were due to changes in Lulu's distribution and ISBN services, that the text is the same in each edition, but that there are more illustrations in the second and third editions, and that there will be no changes to SWORD FIGHTERS OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE.

----------


## L. Braden

My attention was called to this review of Sword Fighters of British India in the Books section of Amazon.com:
"Great history of historical sword use in India, October 1, 2009, by Charlie Lurp [who, by his other reviews, appears to be a weapons aficionado]. The best documented reference on edged weapon combat during the Indian rebellion I have run across. It also contains an excellent collection of period illustrations from various sources." Gives it 5 stars.
Evidently, in an age obsessed with high definition, there are some left who are not concerned about image resolution. However, in the case of K's books, the problem is more with the paper than with the original images, which do not always transfer well on certain paper surfaces unless they are line drawings, which a number of the images are. But even some of the paintings reproduced reasonably well, so I'm not one to fuss.
As far as I can determine, all of the quotes are accurate. But as K. noted in the intro to the first book, they have in many cases been edited down without the distraction of ellipses, without changing their meaning, and without any interpolations except in brackets--which is more than you can say for the originals, many of which were subjected to the editorial license of 19th-century publishers, as I have discovered over the years. Just compare manuscript to printed copies, or even various printed copies!
Finally, numerous British swords are depicted in Sword Fighters of the British Empire. Are we to believe that Brits never used French swords, when they used those of Germany and other countries? The evidence says "No". But maybe K. should have avoided depicting them in that first book.

----------


## Matt Easton

I'd be interested to see an example of a British Officer using a standard issue French or German sword (as opposed to a British design sword with a German made blade).  It seems that many Officers of the time considered French and German blades to be inferior to the best English blades.  Spanish and Italian blades seem to have been regarded as better.

I find it interesting that the majority of reviewers did not seem to realise that most of these images come from Colonel Marey's treatise (he was a Frenchman).  You can obtain a copy of that treatise through Ken Trotman books.

Matt

----------


## L. Braden

You don't have to buy the Colonel's book; you can access it for free via Google Book Search.

As part of the problem, I'm sorry that so much nit-picking attention is being paid to books that are of very limited interest, even to those who frequent this forum, and which don't even claim to be sword-specialist publications, but are merely collections of combat narratives and commentaries. How appropriate the illustrations and the author's opinions are is a matter of individual opinion based on whatever evidence or logic that individual may have; and I, for one, hope we can all agree not to agree (if that's the case)and just move on to some other (futile?) debate.

----------


## Matt Easton

I don't understand why you are being so defensive of someone else's book. :Confused: 

Would you prefer if we didn't offer any criticism at all?

Facts:
- Half the book is made of illustrations, and they are of poor resolution, uncited and sometimes irrelevant.
- The author does make a few incorrect statements.
- Despite these flaws, the book contains loads of really useful information.

These are facts, not points of debate.

Now stop getting your knickers in a twist. :drool: 

Matt
p.s. If you are in fact Mr.Kinsley, posting here under a pseudonim, then congratulations on the books!  :Smilie:

----------


## L. Braden

Matt:
For the information of those who are interested, 
what do you perceive to be "a few incorrect statements"?
Thanks and Best Regards!

----------


## Matt Easton

Examples pulled out at random:

"The best steel blades were made in India, because no finer steel was ever produced than that for Indian sword blades."
Completely subjective statement, and misleading at best.

"In fact the Indian tulwar was the prototype for the European sabre."
Questionable at very best, completely wrong at worst.  Most types of European sabre trace their ancestry back to Eastern European and Middle Eastern types.  The tulwar is distinct by a disc pommel which dictates the way it is used, which no European sabre has.

"Swordsmanship was an ancient sport in India, and many of the techniques of European sword play originated there."
Categorically incorrect.  There is no European sword technique which can be traced to Indian swordsmanship.  European swordsmanship is documented back to the 13thC with technical illustrated sources - Indian swordsmanhip is only documented in lose text in the Shasta Videra and other general treatises and bears no known relation to European swordsmanship.  The methods of 19thC European military swordsmanship have no known relation to Indian gatka or other Indian sword arts.

It is in these moments of personal opinionating and subjective reasoning that the author falls down a bit, presumably due to a slight lack of background knowledge.  Of course the majority of the book is made of quotes from subjective primary sources, by people who were 'there' - and these are where the real value of the work lies.

Once again I'll repeat for you, despite the cautions I give above, and in my review, I still highly recommend this book and commend the author for compiling the material.

Matt

----------


## L. Braden

Matt:
Thanks indeed for your reply!
Re the original Indian steel, I recall reading accounts of its reputed superiority in the notes to Col. Yule's "Marco Polo" and in other sources on the history of steel (by Googling "indian steel"); but some sources thought that 19th-cent. Indian steel was inferior even to the much-maligned Birmingham and Sheffield steels of that period, which was what gave Wilkinson their "edge" in the market.
Sir Frederick Pollock was among those who credited tulwars and scimitars with being the original sabres, but in blade shape only, not hilts, as you noted.
I don't know if K. was referring only to Indian cutting techniques and what his source(s) are/were for that statement.
In any case, thanks again for the info!

----------


## L. Braden

I've located what may be the sources for two of the statements:
"Late in the eighteenth century, an excessively curved light cavalry sabre (apparently copied with close fidelity from an Indian model) was introduced throughout the armies of Europe. It was the weapon of our light dragoons all through the Peninsular and Waterloo campaigns." Frederick Pollock, "The Forms and History of the Sword," Macmillian's Magazine, v. 48, 1883, pp. 206-7. Note that he doesn't attribute it to the Mameluke sabre or Turkish/Persian scimitar.
"The sword-blades of India had a great fame over the East, and Indian steel, according to esteemed authorities, continued to be imported into Persia till days quite recent. Its fame goes back to very old times. ... Edrisi says on this subject: 'The Hindus excel in the manufacture of iron. ... They also have workshops wherein are forged the most famous sabres in the world. ... It is impossible to find anything to surpass the edge that you get from Indian Steel.' Allusions to the famous sword-blades of India would seem to be frequent in Arabic literature." Col. Sir Henry Yule, The Book of Ser Marco Polo, v. 1, pp. 93-6. There's much more in these notes! (To be cont'd.)

----------


## L. Braden

"A very limited amount of steel, but of most excellent quality, is still made in India (called Indian or Wootz steel). ... From this steel, the celebrated Indian sword blades were made, than which no finer tool steel has ever been produced." "Manufacture of Steel," International Library of Technology, v. 18, 1902, p. 33
"Out of this wootz, ... the finest Indian sword-blades are made, the wonderful temper of which, as those of Damascus, is the despair of European cutlers." John Percy, "Metallurgy," The Quarterly Review, v. 120, 1866, p. 88. However, according to another source, Wilkinson was able to duplicate this wootz.
"From this steel, the celebrated Indian sword blades were fashioned. No finer tool steel has ever been made." James Drake Littlefield, Notes For Forge Shop Practice, 1910, p. 52.
"History tells us ... that from this steel the celebrated Indian sword blades were fashioned and no finer tool steel has ever been made." The Blacksmiths Journal, v. 22, 1920, p. 71.
Now, we have only to determine what influence, if any, that Indian swordplay had on Europeans.

----------


## Matt Easton

I'm sorry, but no.

Just because some authorities considered Indian steel to be 'the best ever made', does not make it hard scientific fact now.

Secondly, you have provided a historical source stating that European sabres were based on tulwars, but clearly the author of that view was wrong.  Repeating a wrong assertion does not make it correct.

L.Braden, I don't really understand why you have made it your mission to try and defend the author at any cost?  Why does it trouble you to accept that the author got a couple of things wrong?  Many historical authors get a couple of things wrong...  It's not a great failure.

----------


## L. Braden

Believe what you will!

----------


## Steven Dick

You can certainly find any number of other references that will say the "finest" sword steel came from Japan. But then the 19th century Indians and Japanese never met on the battle field so I guess we will never know. 

I tend to take any one's claim to the finest steel, sharpest edge, strongest blade etc. with a grain of salt.

----------


## J.G. Hopkins

I received this book as a gift in January, and it was purchased through Amazon with no problems.  I am nearly finished reading it so I thought I would chime-in briefly.  I agree with the criticisms of the book, but I feel its value far outweighs its flaws.  No other publication (aside form others by the same author) offers such a comprehensive assemblage of primary source accounts of the use of the sword in battle (in the context of British India).  I recommend this title to anyone with an interest in military swords and swordsmanship or with an interest in details of the fierce hand-to-hand fighting that took place.  I look forward to reading the other titles in the "Sword Fighters..." series.  I would love to see this (maybe paired with the author's other sword related offerings) re-published by a true publisher, offering higher quality images with captions, more accurate images of British swords of the period, and an editor to help catch typos and other small errors in the text.  Maybe there is not a market for such a book, but one can dream.   :Smilie:

----------


## David Black Mastro

> Thomas Powers:
> The "blunt swords" accusation, even when it was GENERALLY without foundation but just an accuse for poor swordsmanship or whatever, has been documented in Kinsley's books. Perhaps I should have better worded it "According to certain 'authorities', Europeans had a long history of blunt swords"! I don't know any more about it than what's on record; but Kinsley DOES point out that the amount of "execution" done by European swords (e.g., at Waterloo and Balaklava) belied the accusation of such critics and observers as war correspondent W. H. Russell.



Europeans never had "a long history of blunt swords"; on the contrary, since Ancient times, various European cultures were able to produce excellent swords with fine cutting edges.  We read numerous accounts of the devastating cutting capacity of Iberian, Celtic, and Roman swords, among others.  The Ancient Iberians in particular were known for their great skills in producing swords with varying degrees of carbon in the blade, that could take a very fine edge, and deliver brutal, limb-severing cuts.

The same goes for later European swords for the Darks Ages onwards.  Both the Frankish & Viking pattern-welded blades, as well as later homgenous steel swords, could take a really good edge.  A.V.B. Norman--a man who was certainly extremely familiar with European swords--once wrote:

*One sometimes reads that the medieval sword was a clumsy weapon, blunt and unwieldy.  No one who had ever held a genuine sword in his hand could say that, since they feel so perfectly designed for their purpose as soon as one's hand closes round the grip.  The few still in their original condition are very sharp indeed.* (emphasis added)

Things apparently changed somewhat during the Industrial Revolution, and standard pattern military swords (cavalry sabers, naval cutlasses, et al) were, according to J. Christoph Amberger, not sharpened until a unit was actually mobilized for war.  However, once mobilized, such a unit could execute great damage with those newly-sharpened swords--eg., look at the exploits of the King's German Legion, during the Napoleonic Wars.

----------


## David Black Mastro

> About all these people being "clove from crown to teeth" and "clove from head to belt." Are these exaggerations? Several references have examples of skulls from medieval battle fields showing head wounds from what would probably have been much larger blades. Frankly, I always been surprised at how little damage was done to the bone.  None come close to being clove from crown to teeth.



There is plenty of archeological and literary evidence, that shows the great cutting capacity of swords and other edged weapons.  In Ancient times, both the _gladius_ and _falcata_ were known for being able to sever limbs, something that especially disturbed the Macedonians.  Archeological evidence from Ancient and Medieval battlefields (eg., Maiden Castle, Wisbey, Towton, et al) shows split skulls, severed legs, and other devastating injuries.

And in 1599, English swordsman George Silver described swordcut injuries very matter-of-factly:

*But the blow* (cut)_ being strongly made, takes sometimes clean away the hand from the arm, has many times been seen. Again, a full blow upon the head or face with a short sharp sword, is most commonly death. A full blow upon the neck, shoulder, arm, or leg, endangers life, cuts off the veins, muscles, and sinews, perishes the bones. These wounds made by the blow, in respect of perfect healing, are the loss of limbs, or maims incurable forever._

----------


## David R

Perhaps chiming in a bit late here, but I believe the whole blunt western sword legend derives from two sources. One, the difference between an old relic western sword, and a still in use eastern weapon. The other the later 19thC army sword, where it was a chargeable offence to sharpen it without permission.
 There are other things going on, the change to Bessemer steel instead of Double Shear steel, and a change in sharpening techniques as a result, stone instead of file sharpening.
 Of interest, at a meeting at RA Leeds an original oficers sword of the army in India was produced, with a custom blade  very like the old 1790s light cavalry blade, though with official patt. hilt. More often that not though, officers went for the enlisted patt. hilt as being more robust than the officers patt.

----------


## Matt Easton

> I agree with the criticisms of the book, but I feel its value far outweighs its flaws.


I completely agree Jonathan.  I recently purchased the latest compilation and I am very happy to have it, it is an indispensible collection of sources.  The parts where the author gets things a bit muddled do not bother me greatly, though I would be more than happy to help him clarify some points if I knew how to contact him (or her).  I also would love to see these works compiled, organised and laid out better and published by a 'proper' publisher.
Regardless, I recommend these books to just about everybody I talk to.  :Smilie: 

Regards,
Matt

----------


## Will Mathieson

Good point Matt, you could clarify points or the author could join this forum and iron out the details if he was willing to take the time. The only problem I have with inaccuracies is the repetition of them by less versed sword enthusiasts and using these books as a reference for fact. Nothing is more frustrating than trying to explain why something in writing is inaccurate. People tend to believe what they read, just like what was on the news last night. I strongly agree, the pictures can be greatly improved, though I think cost was a deciding factor, but with modern methods it still could have been better. Possibly a reprint combining volumes and improving previous points mentioned could be a profitable venture!

----------


## L. Braden

I see that all but one (the first) of the 7 books that were listed in amazon and ebay are now suddenly and inexplicably available only from their original source, lulu.com, which makes me suspect that this might be the beginning of the end of their availability anywhere else but in the used-book market.

----------


## Matt Easton

They will remain available on Lulu for as long as the author wills it though, surely?

I have ordered all my copies from Lulu and received excellent and quick service (quicker than Amazon!).

Matt

----------


## Will Mathieson

What are the titles of the other books other than sword fighters of India and Britain? I did not realize there are seven by the author.

----------


## L. Braden

All 7:
Sword Fighters of British India
Swordsmen of the Raj
Sword Fighters of the British Empire
Blades In Action
Swordsmen of the Empire
Blade Fighters
British Sword Fighting

I suppose, Matt, that they will remain available from lulu.com as long as the author wills it. But will he?!

----------


## Will Mathieson

Thanks for the list of titles. Are they all good reading? which ones do you recommend the most? I have Sword Fighters of British India and 
Sword Fighters of the British Empire and found both quite good.

----------


## L. Braden

Will:
I should have clarified the titles. "Blades In Action" and "Blade Fighters" are the two that you don't have, and are supplements to the ones that you have. "Swordsmen of the Raj" is the 2nd edition of "Sword Fighters of British India". "Swordsmen of the Empire" is a combo of the first three books, and "British Sword Fighting" is a combo of all four books. Like Matt, I would recommend the two supplements if you liked the first two books, because of the additional material, which you won't find elsewhere. (There are brief descriptions of them in this Reviews section.)

----------


## Will Mathieson

Thanks for clarifying that, I've just ordered them at lulu to add to the collection, but to read first of course!!

----------


## Matt Easton

I've just finished Swordsmen of the Empire (compilation of the first 3 books), so it's the first time that I've read the 3rd volume and it's really good.  In terms of composition and interpretation I would say that this is a stronger work than the first two volumes (the author is clearly getting a deeper understanding of the subject now), and it contains lots of really useful and fascinating sources regarding bayonets, kukris, khyber knives and their use.  Having a modest collection of kukris and khyber knives myself I found these parts particularly interesting.  I'm now trying to work out exact how the gutting cut with the kukri worked exactly.  :Smilie: 

Matt

----------


## Will Mathieson

Sounds like the books may expand my interests to collecting kukris and khyber knives! Matt are the khyber knife blades hand made or originate from old swords or? The kukri gutting cut sounds like a quick sharp movement, not something you want to be on the receiving end of. Is the approach from the front or the rear?

----------


## Matt Easton

It's difficult to work out exactly what the sources mean for the kukri cut, but they seem to agree that a gutting cut was often used (whilst parrying the opponent's weapon with a shield) and that it was a slice (difficult to say whether a push or draw cut through).

The charah/choora/khyber knives are locally made and seem to have been the same design since at least the 18thC right into the 20thC.  They have a thick heavy T-section and are made such that they are not at all flexible (in fact you can bend them by hand with some effort, because I have straightened two!), but their edges are very hard and sharp.  So either they have just quenched the edge (like Japanese swords) or they have forge-welded a hard steel edge to a softer steel/iron back (like medieval European knives), that's my guess.

I don't want to drift any more off topic here though.  :Smilie: 

Matt

----------


## L. Braden

> I see that all but one (the first) of the 7 books that were listed in amazon and ebay are now suddenly and inexplicably available only from their original source, lulu.com, which makes me suspect that this might be the beginning of the end of their availability anywhere else but in the used-book market.


SURPRISE! I see that they are back at amazon.com, and I assume that they will be back at ebay.com as well, because in checking with lulu.com I find that all of their listings on amazon and ebay were temporarily removed for some re-formatting procedure.

----------

