# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Middle-East, India & Africa (MEIA) >  Looking for help in identifying a dagger I just purchased in Istanbul

## joe arena

Hello Hello:

I'm a brand-newbie to this forum (and to antique knives).  I just returned from Istanbul, Turkey.  While there, I picked up an intersting (at least to me) knife from one of the antique shops in the Çukurcuma Square area of the Asian side of the city.

The shop keepers knowlege of English was about as good as my Turkish (non-existent in both cases).  I couldn't get any information from him on the knife.

I'd really appreciate any help from the experts out here in identifying this knife, it's geographic origin, estimated date and anything else that anyone can tell me about it.  I paid 200 Turkish Lira (~$110 US) for the knife.  I find it interesting to note that the bottom of the knife is not sharp on the edges - in fact there is a double ridge of metal with a trough in-between.  The top edge of the knife is a bit sharp, but not sharp enough to do any harm to anything.  Any information on that edge would be greatly appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8176276...7631700274538/

I thank you very much and look forward to hearing about this knife.

joe arena

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## Gene Wilkinson

Hi Joe,
It's a Kindjal on the smaller side but very nicely made.
Can you show some really close up shots of the blade?

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## Sancar Ozer

Çukurcuma is not on the Asian side, it is in Beyoğlu; I think you mean Bahariye, which is the neighborhood for most antique stores at the Asian side.  :Wink: 

Anyway, first of all, I must say you are very very lucky to find a genuine article at an Istanbul antique store. Most bladed antiques at those stores are either fake or extremely overpriced. And for some weird reason, finding a Napoleon war era French cavalry saber or a small sword is easier to find than a Turkish blade in those stores. 

 This kama looks genuine, though I don't think it is older than late 19th to early 20th centuries. Blade itself look cleaned, which antique dealers in Istanbul often do, even if it completely destroys things like remnants of koftgari or inscriptions on the blade. 
(O.k. now I'm officialy stopping complaining about antique dealers of Istanbul  :Smilie: )

My guess is, this is a turn of the century Sürmene knife locally called "Sivri"(which simply means pointy). Kama was a popular form in Turkey, especially at 19th century; but this one's scabbard made me think of Sürmene. 

 Sürmene knives are usually a set of two knives, one kama(or sivri) and one knife(bıçak). Some are relatively simple but some are very ornated. Handle is usually made of water buffalo horn. 

They still make miniaturized (roughly 20 cm)versions of those knives in Sürmene.

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## joe arena

First of all, thank you for correcting me.  I was in Cukurcuma, and I always confuse going over the small bridge (with the seafood restaurants on the below level) with going into Asia.  You'd think that after three trips to that great city, I'd remember.

The first poster asked for some closeups of the blade.  I did the best I could here.

I'd love to know more about the double edge on the sides of the end of the blade.

(and if I'm not already asking for too much), I'd love to know what is inscribed on the front of the blade.  Is it just free form, or is it supposed to mean something ???

I'd also like to know if $110 US was a fair price for the dagger.

I've added three more pictures to the end of this flickr set.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8176276...7631700274538/

Thanx again,
joe arena
















> Çukurcuma is not on the Asian side, it is in Beyoğlu; I think you mean Bahariye, which is the neighborhood for most antique stores at the Asian side. 
> 
> Anyway, first of all, I must say you are very very lucky to find a genuine article at an Istanbul antique store. Most bladed antiques at those stores are either fake or extremely overpriced. And for some weird reason, finding a Napoleon war era French cavalry saber or a small sword is easier to find than a Turkish blade in those stores. 
> 
>  This kama looks genuine, though I don't think it is older than late 19th to early 20th centuries. Blade itself look cleaned, which antique dealers in Istanbul often do, even if it completely destroys things like remnants of koftgari or inscriptions on the blade. 
> (O.k. now I'm officialy stopping complaining about antique dealers of Istanbul )
> 
> My guess is, this is a turn of the century Sürmene knife locally called "Sivri"(which simply means pointy). Kama was a popular form in Turkey, especially at 19th century; but this one's scabbard made me think of Sürmene. 
> 
> ...

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## Manouchehr M.

Would you please post the pictures directly on this forum thanks?

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## joe arena

Thank you all for your help.  I've attached pictures of the knife directly to this website.

I look forward to hearing back.

joe arena

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## Sancar Ozer

Joe, I can't see an inscription but there is some freestyle floral decoration on the blade, which is consistent with 19th century art. 

I am not familiar with foreign antique markets,(I have a vague idea that Turkish antique arms seem to be cheaper abroad than it is in Turkey) but this kama's price seem relatively fair, if you consider the market and the good condition of the blade.

May I ask if the handle was made of horn or wood?

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## joe arena

The handle appears to be bone.  There is no grain to be seen.  Funny, I first started looking for an antique Ottoman knife in the antique section of the Grand Bazaar.  What a mistake that was.  The cheapest knife that I saw (less fancy than the knife that I eventually bought) had a starting price of $500 US.  Apparently the Grand Bazaar is not the place for antique bargains.

Thanx,
joearena

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## Sancar Ozer

> The handle appears to be bone.  There is no grain to be seen.  Funny, I first started looking for an antique Ottoman knife in the antique section of the Grand Bazaar.  What a mistake that was.  The cheapest knife that I saw (less fancy than the knife that I eventually bought) had a starting price of $500 US.  Apparently the Grand Bazaar is not the place for antique bargains.
> 
> Thanx,
> joearena


Wise words, my friend  :Smilie:

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## Gene Wilkinson

Hi Joe,

Thanks for the close-ups and extra pictures. It's a nice dagger you've got there.
As has been said, the market for atiques in Isanbul is rather 'strong' so I'd say that you've got yourself a real bargain there.
The hilt slabs are horn by the look of them. Some large bovine like the black buffalo horn that it widely used for hilts.
If you search for Kindjal, Kama, Qama, Quadara you'll see various associated knives and swords.
Although complex multi-fullered blades are reasonably common, the blade on yours with it's outer ridges at the tip and fullers that totally meet creating a hollowground recess is in my experience very unusual.
I would estimate it's age as circa 1910-1920. The decoration towards the hilt looks etched to my initial gaze and I don't see any other indications of a piece that would be much earlier than that, age cracks or delamination of the horn hilt scales and other things.
Although less common on smaller pieces you might  find some activity in the steel, differential hardening is not unusual (of the edge like a Hamon line on a Japanese blade). I'll attach a couple of pictures to show what I mean. Either way I wouldn't worry, it's a very nice dagger and the price was a bargain.
Congratulations.

ATB
Gene

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## joe arena

Gene & Sancar:

Thank you both very much for the wonderful information that you provided to me.  I'm going to print this page and keep it with the knife.

Have a great one.
joearena

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## Sancar Ozer

You are most welcome, Joe  :Smilie:

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## Gene Wilkinson

Hi Joe,
As Sancar said, you're very welcome.
ATB
Gene

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