# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Middle-East, India & Africa (MEIA) >  indian martial arts - shastar vidiya

## harvinder singh

Hi all

My name is Harvinder, I am a practitioner of a indian battlefield martial art called shastar vidiya, I thought I would introduce the art to people of this forum and so people can ask questions about it and I will try and answer any questions you may have...

this art is amazing!!!! as a Sikh, this helps me bring me back to my roots, of how my ancestors would have fought as a lot of sikhs during 17-19th century learned this art.

I shall not go on and on about it yet! as it is late and I need some sleep, so I hope you guys will check out the following links and have a look through the website, dont be afraid to ask  any questions you may have.

my class has a open challenge to anyone wishing to test the art out against theirs, this is known as 'hadh thoor' if there is anyone who thinks they can defeat my gurdev (instructor) come forward to the akara(class) and take up the challenge.  http://shastarvidiya.org/challenge.jsp

like I said, I will answer any questions you may have....

www.shastarvidiya.org

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvYU0Vg0238

regards

Nihang Harvinder Singh.

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## harvinder singh

bump

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## Lidia

This woman approves.  :Big Grin: 

Read on the website that women historically fought with the men. Any train at your school currently?

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## harvinder singh

> This woman approves. 
> 
> Read on the website that women historically fought with the men. Any train at your school currently?



yeah there is a few here and there depending what location of the class you go to.....example london has a few.

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## harvinder singh

a few years back on a martial arts magazine 

Shastarvidiya - Indian Martial Arts by Krishan Godhania

As a native of India, I have always had an interest in the vast array of traditional Indian Martial Arts. Locating such martial arts is difficult; teachers in India are highly secretive by nature. This is due to the deadly nature of these battlefield arts; the treasured knowledge is passed only to a select few. Nidar Singh - who has been practising the art of Shastarvidiya for over two decades and is perhaps the senior gutu of this particular art in the UK - shares the background and development of this ancient martial art.

Krishna Godhania: What is Shastarvidiya?

Nidar Singh: Shastar literally means weapons, Vidiya means knowledge. Shaster Vidiya is the name of traditional Indian martial arts of Northern India.

KG: Can you tell us briefly about the history of Shastervidiya?

NS: There is no single source of history of Shaster Vidiya. There are a number of mythological Indian stories regards the origins of Shastar Vidiya. One that is popularly spoken of by Sikh warriors, the Akali Nihangs, is how once the king of Indian demigods Indira, defeated by demon Muru, fled from thefield of battle. Then Brahma (Hindu God of creation), as commanded by highest God, lit a great sacrificial fire. Then on composing the mystical incantation, Brahma Kavch (still recited by Akali Nihang warriors for protection to this day) offered sacrifices and praised God's divine power Goddess Chandi as a sword. She then manifested herself as Goddess Asi (sword). Taking hold of the sword, the demigods Vishna, Shiva, Indira, etc. defeated their demonic foes. This sword was then passed to the great Sage Manu (Noah of India). He created the Khashtriya (Indian martial) cast and gave then the Asi and all its knowledge of Shaster Vidiya. In time this Vidiya was taught in the great ancient university city of Taxila (now in Northern Pakistan) from where Buddhist monks took it to China and beyond. The Sikh warriors of the 16th century founded by Guru Nanak (1469-1539) are the inheritors of this ancient Khashtriya Indian martial tradition.

KG: Is it unique to India or was it influenced by other oriental martial arts?

NS: The art is basically unique to India but in the past it was influenced by Arabic and Persian arts, such as 'Shamshir Baji', both through friendly and hostile interaction.

KG: What areas of combat does it cover, eg unarmed combat, warfare and street?

NS: The art exists at four levels.
Sava Raksha - Traditional, Unarmed, armed self-defence techniques.
Greh Rakha - Tradtional tactics and strategies of home-defence.
Goah Rakhia - Tradtional tactics and strategies of village-defence.
Jangi Vidiya - Traditionan Indian Sikh battlefield techniques.

KG: It seems to specialize in using strategy and deception. How would you employ this in a one against many opponents situation?

NS: Knowing the appropriate strategy and employing the appropriate tactics is the key to success in this art. The best strategies and tactics are, on the whole, though not always, concealed from the opponent. So the Vidiya is very devious and deceptive in application. What you don't see coming has the most impact. As for one fighting against many and what strategies and tactics are to be employed in this situation; it depends on the scenario. One simple strategy is to explode the the approaching opponents then, staying on the periphery, close in and aggresively herd them together knocking them all off-balance, confusing their sense of direction. Then appropriately using them as shields, making them obstacles for each other, quickly mixing amongst them and dispatching them employing unarmed or weapon techniques. Do not pull away from them and let them gain balance or space for maneuverability, pile them togehter and cut or strike them down. This strategy is known as Satha Vashona (clumping and cutting down crops to lay in the field) in Shaster Vidiya.

KG: Is there a spiritual side, I hear about a 'warrior yoga' you teach?

NS: Yes, there is a deep spiritual tradition. It incorporates a special form of dynamic martial Yoga, 'Sanjam Kiriya Viriyam', the self-disciplining excercises of a Sikh warrior.

KG: You mentioned battle with external foes and internal ones, could you elaborate on this.

NS: External foes are Dusht Dokhian meaning evil beings who cause pain to others. They disrupt the universal Dharma. Internal foes are the vices within Man. Chief amongst them are five: Kaam (illegitimate lust), Krodha (Out of context anger), Lobh (inappropriate material desire), Moh (misplaced love) and Hankar (Egocentricity).

KG: Do you have any texts or scriptures on war and battle?

NS: Yes, there are two main martial texts amongst the Akali Nihangs. Dasam Guru Darbar and Sarbloh Guru Darbar both authored by the great warrior Akali Guru Gobind Singh (1666-1708).

KG: Tell us about the ancient Sikh warrior traditions like hunting and applying blood to weapons and battle standards. Do you still maintain these? Is this relevant in today's modern world?

NS: Since ancient times hunting has been part and parcel of Indian warrior tradition. To build and test their courage ancient Hindu, Sikh, Mogul and other warriors would engage tigers, bears, elephants, etc. in single combat using a variety of weapons on foot or horse back. Today the Khalsa Sikh warriors, the Akali Nihangs, in order to maintain their martial spirit, still hunt as much as modern times allow or more generally decapitate goats and with its blood anoint their weaponsm standards, battle drums and the foreheads of warriors. For Akali Nihangs these traditions are as relevant today as in the past, in the sense that they keep them attached to their martial heritage.

KG: Some people would say, what is the point of training with a sword when an AK-47 would do the job a lot quicker. What is your view?

NS: Akali Nihang warriors in India do keep and train in use of all forms of modern firearms such as AK-47, but the AK-47 alone cannot attach a Sikh to his martial history, heritage, ideology or philosophy. Any undisciplined Tom, Dick or Harry may pick up an AK-47 and kill, as in the 1980s during the nightmare years of terrorism in the Punjab. Swordsmanship and its related arts take years of assiduous disciplined training. These long years of hard training under the guidance of a Gurdev (master) forge the spirit, mind and body, tempering it with all the best qualities of an enlightened soul such as morality, ethics, character, intellect, wisdom, physical-mental discipline and spiritual equipoise. All these are the qualities of a true Sikh warrior. Such warriors upholding Dharma seek to bring peace and prosperity to all. In contrast, the AK-47, weapon of choice of most terrorists in the world, in the hands of undisciplined fools gives nothing but death and suffering.

KG: On your website, a Nihang Warrior is seen decapitating a goat (on video). How is this related to your martial art?

NS: Chatka (to kill quickly) is the fundamental principle behind Shaster Vidiya. Chatka does not come easy to humans even though they may sit down with their ham sandwich and munch away. Ask most meat eaters would you have killed, skinned and cooked what you eat? The answer in most cases would be 'no'. Humans have a natural aversion to killing, so Sikh warriors, in order to overcome this natural human inhibition to kill and shed blood, decapitate goats. Goats are chosen, apart from the obvious fact they are a good source of meat and leather, because a mature goat's neck is very close in size to a human neck. Akali Nihang warriors state that the same amount of force is required to decapitate a goat as humans, so it is good martial strategy. Once decapitated, the cutting and butchering of the goat also serves to help overcome the human inhibition to shed blood.

KG: Each of the forms you demonstrated were based upon Hindu Gods in animal forms. Could you describe these a little and their effectiveness in combat?

NS: These Khat Ang Yudhan (Six classical combat forms) are:
1. Virah Yudhan (Wild Boar form) characterised by explosive close quater multiple strikes to bodies 107 Marma.
2. Sheshnag Yudhan (Cobra from) characterised by close quater fluid strikes and limb-snaring, joint-breaking, dislocating and choking techniques.
3. Garrur Yudhan (Eagle/Gander/Peacock/Cockerel form) characterised by angling off opponent to maneuver around opponent to devastate with a long-range barrage of hand and foot strikes to Marma.
4. Nandi Pentra (Bull form) characterised by close quarter explosive digging strikes and stand up grappling and body mangling techniques.
5. Nar Singha Yudhan (Tiger form) characterised bu evasive hypnotic footwork with sudden pouncing attacks to take opponent down to ground fighting.
6. Hanuman Yudhan (Langur monkey form) characterised by low ground hugging baiting postures. It is strong in low high explosive adroit attacks to take the opponent down to the ground to destroy but quickly springing up so as not to get entangled in ground fighting.

Each of the Pentras (forms) are highly effective by themselvesm but when combined they are most effective.

KG: There is a huge variety in bladed weapons, what are your favourite weapons and why?

NS: Shaster Vidiya has the largest range of weaponry of any martial art in the world. To say that any particular one is my favourite is impossible. I get pleasure in training with all the weapons of the art in particular the mind and spirit.

KG: Some of our readers may have seen 'Gatka' (more popular Sikh martial art) being demonstrated around the UK on Sikh festivals. How is Shastervidiya different and why is it virtually unheard of, even in Sikh circles?

NS: Gatka is a Sikh martial exhibitionist art, which evolve under the restrictions of the British Raj in the 1860s. Shastervidiya is the original Sikh combat art that, under the restrictions of the British Raj, went underground. Due to Shaster Vidiya's secretive nature, not even many Sikhs now know of its true form. Today, because mention of Shaster Vidiya is still found in ancient Sikh texts, you will still occasionally hear of its name amongst Sikhs. Though on a whole at present the general Sikh public, including practitioners of Gatka, are confusing the tmasha (circus act) of Gatka with Shaster Vidiya.

KG: How easy and practical is it to learn?
NS: The self-defence aspect of Shaster Vidiya is very practical and easy to learn. On the other hand, the classical battlefield aspect of Shaster Vidiya with its classical Pentras and live blade sparring is extremely practical and effective in application, but it is not very easy to learn.

KG: Does it cater for women and children?
NS: Yes it does. Children, women and adult males are taught in seperate syllabuses.

KG: Do you have a grading structure like belts or sashes?
NS: No.

KG: In your opinion, what makes Shaster Vidiya unique as compared to Eskrima or Wushu?
NS: In terms of character, Shaster Vidiya is unique in its Punjabi Indian-ness. In terms of technique its unique in the vast array of strategies, tactics and techniques it enshrines, combining the six classical forms. Further, its uniqueness lis in the manner it combines unarmed techniques with weapons. Even the attire of the Akali Nihang warrior from his bracelets to the arrowhead protusion from the top of his war turban are but deadly weapons. Yet the most outstanding uniqueness of this ancient art, which strikes all its observers, lies in its exceptionally fluid footwork and technique.

KG: How long hav you been learning and teaching this martial art?

NS: Over 20 years.

KG: Are there many masters of this art?

NS: As guns became more popular the emphasis on this art decreased in the itinierant Akali Nihang armies. Today there are not many masters of this art alive. The ones I know, if still alive, are Nihang Baba Ram Singh in UP, India and Bhai Ranjit Singh of Patiala who has partial knowledge of this art. There are no doubt others in Budha Dal (oldest Sikh martial order established in 1606) but they being itinerant mendicants of secretive nature, are not easy to track down.

KG: Plesae tell us of any real-live encounters where yu have had to use this knowledge to protect yourself or others?

NS: In self-defence, it is taught to circumvent and avoid violence where possible. Only a fool goes seeking violence. Yet over the years I have encountered knife, stick, sword etc. attacks. One Nihang fool I disarmed and knocked out in Anandpur sought to shoot me. I have also encountered mobs in Delhi targetting Sikhs. Each time my Vidiya stood me well. In the UK I have had numerous indiviuals test my art in the Akhara. Our Baba Darbara Singh Akhara established in the middle of the 17th century allows for anyone to come and challenge the Akhara master. It is challenges that keep the Vidiya strong.

KG: Does one have to be a Sikh to learn this art?

NS: No, the art is open to all of any race, creed, religion or colour provided they make these three pledges:
Not to abuse the art.
Not to sell the art.
Not to teach anyone who does not pledge to the above two pledges.

KG: You don't have set fees - how are your classes funded?

NS: Each student according to his/her capacity, gives monetary contribution as they salute weapons and ancient Gurdevs at the beginning of each class.

KG: Thank you for sharing your knowledge with the readers of Martial Arts Illustrated.

NS: Its my pleasure, thankyou Krishna for giving me this opportunity to further propogate Shastarvidiya.

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## Lidia

> In contrast, the AK-47, weapon of choice of most terrorists in the world, in the hands of undisciplined fools gives nothing but death and suffering.


I really wish this attitude toward modern weapons would just die. The most important words in his sentence are "undisciplined fool" Don't blame an ak47 for someone's deficiency in morals. 

Good interview otherwise.

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## Craig Holt

First off Mr Singh, Thank you for posting this.  I am quite sure it is a fascinating martial art that I would RELISH the chance to study ( I love the somewhat rare arts and the history and tradition behind them).   Again I am in Texas in the mid of nowhere but if i ever get the chance....ALSO, you are a Sikh you said?  Again absolutely outstanding.  I had the chance once to see the Sikh officers in their dress uniform that work for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.  The RCMP's allowed their Sikh officers to keep their beards and their dress uniform was altered a little bit to favor the cultural difference of the Sikh officers and they were also allowed to retain their knife(forgive my i dont know its traditional name but it looked like a jambiyah) and it was sheathed and carried tucked into their belts in front.  They also wore their turban as a part of their dress uniform.  All i can remember thinking when i saw them was how completely professional and how AMAZING they looked in their uniforms.  They were completely nice, professional, and i was utterly speachless at how ..well...nice those uniforms with the changes  looked.  I was in awe.  Sorry off topic but i just wanted to share that tale.

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## harvinder singh

greetings Craig,

this art is very fascinating every class I attend it just pulls you in with his beauty....

if your ever in the UK there are always classes in London and the west-midlands...

That is correct I am a follower of the Sikh FAITH.

the 'sikh knife' in modern terms is called a 'Kirpan' and it looks like this (see link)
http://www.athleticbusiness.com/edit...ads/kirpan.jpg

but as a Sikh if you have heard this we are a martial race and our last Sikh Guru did tell us to bear arms, the dagger I showed is what Modern day sikhs would carry, personally I wouldnt carry one of those because our Guru did not bound us to one weapon. The Sikhs of the old carried minimum 5 weapons of different kinds, a tulwar, a matchlock, axe, dagger, katar.

see this image of a traditional Akali Nihang Soldier...as you can see the vast array of weapons he has in his 'kammakassa' (waistbelt)

http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-...06686_1066.jpg

http://www.britishbattles.com/first-...sikh-akali.jpg

I recommend this book which talks about the sikh warriors, its pictures range from paintings from the sikh gurus time to the current age..

http://www.amazon.com/Warrior-Saints...0552437&sr=8-1

very good book on sikh warrior culture...

back to my point the kirpan as a sikh I would go for the more traditional weapons such as a pesh kabz or a choora, but thats my view...

I remember the queen has two sikh bodyguards http://www.hindustantimes.com/Sikhs-...e1-437470.aspx





> First off Mr Singh, Thank you for posting this.  I am quite sure it is a fascinating martial art that I would RELISH the chance to study ( I love the somewhat rare arts and the history and tradition behind them).   Again I am in Texas in the mid of nowhere but if i ever get the chance....ALSO, you are a Sikh you said?  Again absolutely outstanding.  I had the chance once to see the Sikh officers in their dress uniform that work for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.  The RCMP's allowed their Sikh officers to keep their beards and their dress uniform was altered a little bit to favor the cultural difference of the Sikh officers and they were also allowed to retain their knife(forgive my i dont know its traditional name but it looked like a jambiyah) and it was sheathed and carried tucked into their belts in front.  They also wore their turban as a part of their dress uniform.  All i can remember thinking when i saw them was how completely professional and how AMAZING they looked in their uniforms.  They were completely nice, professional, and i was utterly speachless at how ..well...nice those uniforms with the changes  looked.  I was in awe.  Sorry off topic but i just wanted to share that tale.

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## Craig Holt

I knew there was a pic of one of their SGTs somewhere it is in this link.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...a%3DN%26um%3D1

I understand the martial race thing I am Apache/Cherokee.

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## harvinder singh

> I knew there was a pic of one of their SGTs somewhere it is in this link.
> 
> http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...a%3DN%26um%3D1
> 
> I understand the martial race thing I am Apache/Cherokee.


he looks smart...
could you tell me more about the Apache/Cherokee race Ive never come across it...would be interesting, could you PM me about it...

also I am well let me rephrase that I wish I was of 'Nihang Origin' I have called myself a 'Nihang' on this website but I havent been baptized by Nihangs so i cannot call myself as one But I do follow their ideologies and traditions and class myself as one, but I havent got time to go to india to be baptized as I have other commitments which stop me from.....

regards

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## Emanuel Nicolescu

Hello Harvinder,

Thank you very much for posting this. I was going to ask you about the Nihang title but you've answered this.

I remember well the debates we've had here in Toronto about the wear of turbans and the kirpan. The kirpan especially was problematic at first. A young Sikh boy was suspended from school at some point for "conceiling a weapon". Since then I've found that once people understand the significance of these items, they are quite all right with the idea. 

Regards,
Emanuel

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## harvinder singh

turbans arent cultural for sikhs people always assume that...sikhs HAVE to wear turbans. It is apart of the sikh faith to have long hair and tie turbans to cover the hair...
same about the 'kirpan'.

any Q you may have dont hesitate to ask...




> Hello Harvinder,
> 
> Thank you very much for posting this. I was going to ask you about the Nihang title but you've answered this.
> 
> I remember well the debates we've had here in Toronto about the wear of turbans and the kirpan. The kirpan especially was problematic at first. A young Sikh boy was suspended from school at some point for "conceiling a weapon". Since then I've found that once people understand the significance of these items, they are quite all right with the idea. 
> 
> Regards,
> Emanuel

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## Perpinder Singh

Hello Emanuel -

The kirpan issue does come up from time to time, but Canadian schools do allow Sikh children the right to wear the kirpan; I can't think of a Canadian jurisdiction where it isn't allowed. 

Not too long ago, the matter made headlines in Quebec, with an elementary school student being suspended/expelled for wearing a kirpan. Note: As you're no doubt aware, Quebec has a unique place in Canada, and, to some degree, struggles with questions of identity and culture more-so than other provinces. Moreover, Quebec has traditionally not had the immigration other provinces like Ontario and B.C. have had, so is relatively new at addressing issues like the kirpan.

Anyhow, the Quebec (Montreal) case went all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada, where the 7 judges held unanimously in favour of the Sikh child's right to wear the kirpan.

Question really becomes one of accommodation - how far do you go or not go, and safety as well. Sikhs have been in Canada for over a century, and there has never been an incident (as far as I am aware) of a Sikh student using the kirpan as a weapon.

On the other hand, baseball bats, hockey sticks, pens, pencils, wet towels, have all been used for violence in Canadian schools..... so, if these items with a track record of violence are allowed, why not an article of faith with no history of violence in the schoolyard (for over 100 years)?

I think there will always be a segment of the population which will be uncomfortable with the kirpan, but I've found most to be understanding when I've discussed its significance as an article of faith (and its history in schools).

Then again, there are those who are dead-set against it, and have no interest in hearing about its religious significance, statistics, facts, accommodation etc. 

Generally, I've found these people to be uncomfortable with different ethnic groups in their midst, and they're often the ones advising others to "leave Canada, and go back to where you came from" - notwithstanding the fact, some 'ethnic types' like myself are third/fourth generation Canadians  :Smilie: 

regards,
Perpinder

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## Perpinder Singh

Hello Harvinder,

I had a look at the video link in your signature. I don't have a lot of familiarity with Niddar Singh but found the video interesting.

Two points though: 

1. The term shastar-vidya simply translates into 'knowledge of weapons', while the video implies this is the name of a specific art. Moreover, while I can appreciate the marketing appeal of defining 'shastar-vidya' as seperate from 'gatka', I think it's different names for the same thing. For example, there are instructors who use the words gatka and shastar-vidya interchangeably.

Now, if the issue is that 'gatka' is showy, ineffectual stick-twirling and 'shastar-vidya' is the real-deal martial art - I, again, would have to disagree.

There are many, many gatka practitioners who know no more than the showy, stick-twirling - very sad, especially when they believe it translates into actual combat techniques. That said, there are other gatka practioners who do know their stuff, and know it well. For example, you might go to a Muay Thai school, and find the instructors throw leg-kicks like karate point-fighters, and you might go to another MT school, where the instructor kicks like a champion from Lumpini Stadium. You'll find the same variance in gatka/shastar-vidya, and most other martial arts as well.


2. The video also mentions that Niddar Singh is the 'last remaining master'. I do hope that was a mistake on the narrator's part, otherwise it is a ridiculous, laughable claim.

Niddar Singh may indeed be a good practitioner, and a knowledgable instructor, but there are other solid guys out there as well.

Heck, take someone like Jathedar Baba Nihal Singh ji of Harian-Vela (the Taruna Dal) as an example. No offense, but when it comes to Sikh history, theology, and martial arts, he's probably forgotten more than Niddar Singh has learned. Not to mention Baba Nihal Singh has walked the walk, and is considered a legend and hero in the Sikh community - he isn't called 'Jinda-Shaheed' (the Living Martyr) for no reason! I was fortunate enough to train with him for a brief period of time - many years ago - he's the real deal. 
Niddar Singh is not the 'last remaining master'.

I think the art and school can stand on the basis of its instruction, and claims like the above (my apologies if it was an error on the part of the narrator) are unnecessary and reduce credibility.

regards,
Perpinder Singh

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## harvinder singh

greetings.

'Now, if the issue is that 'gatka' is showy, ineffectual stick-twirling and 'shastar-vidya' is the real-deal martial art - I, again, would have to disagree.'

disagree? when number mr perpinder singh lets go in dept with this to an extent if you dont mind.
I guess you have heard of dasam and sarbloh granth? does maharaj say swing your weapons aimlessly? or does he say do chatka of the enemy? 

you havent been to the shastar vidiya akara if you have then you will see the differance, we dont swing weapons around, in formation in war do you actually think the singhs used to spin around???? in tight formations no space to move just enough to do a few strikes to the neck a thrust etc? i dont think so mate.

this is my point im making gatka is just show art in GATKA what do you get taught? a simple footwork which wont work in the battlefield context I did not mention anything about muay thai but im glad you brough this up. gatka teachers are now incorporating other martial arts into their gatka system why ? because gatka is not a martial art it cannot hold against other forms. for example lets say I am going to war I practise gatka...i have a tulwar katar a shield the main weapons of gatkabaj, im hitting the enemy's shield with my sword my sword would get blunt right? it could break most likely...i use my katar the same way, same thing happens, do you honestly believe the singhs had no unarmed combat system?!?!


alright since you brought that up i suggest you go to the nihang chaunis and tell me who teaches the vidiya? no one? because they dont know it!!!! a few babeh know some low forms but thats about it. its laughable? well provide me your evidence on who teaches it? ill love to go to dal panth and learn from a Nihang there but truth is no one knows the FULL art. there have been word about so called 25 teachers in budha dal but why hasnt anyone given their names? or any information about them? there is a Baba gyana singh who does teach shastar vidiya BUT Niddar Singh has met him and he only knows some basic techniques. if there are babeh who do know the vidiya and have kept it gupt i suggest they should come out and teach...

solid guys? like who give me names like I said....
so you have learned shastar vidiya from akali baba nihal singh? I havent come across him knowing the vidiya, im sure he knows gatka, or maybe some low forms of shastar vidiya but that mahapursh sadly does not know the full vidiya. 

no offence to you but seeing as you can state all of this stuff why not come to the Akara seeing as if gatka and shastar vidiya are the same thing to you I think its best if you come and see the art rather then giving a baseless argument on how Niddar Singh Nihang isnt the last gurdev of shastar vidiya, hes been to punjab how many times? countless number of times he hasnt come across a single Nihang who knows the full art. If you think hes lying about him being the last gurdev do your research find a Nihang who knows the full art, challenge niddar about it why he is lying about it then.

until you give me evidence of teachers of the vidiya currently, your statement niddar singh isnt the last gurdev of shastar vidiya is 'wack'

2. The video also mentions that Niddar Singh is the 'last remaining master'. I do hope that was a mistake on the narrator's part, otherwise it is a ridiculous, laughable claim.






> Hello Harvinder,
> 
> I had a look at the video link in your signature. I don't have a lot of familiarity with Niddar Singh but found the video interesting.
> 
> Two points though: 
> 
> 1. The term shastar-vidya simply translates into 'knowledge of weapons', while the video implies this is the name of a specific art. Moreover, while I can appreciate the marketing appeal of defining 'shastar-vidya' as seperate from 'gatka', I think it's different names for the same thing. For example, there are instructors who use the words gatka and shastar-vidya interchangeably.
> 
> Now, if the issue is that 'gatka' is showy, ineffectual stick-twirling and 'shastar-vidya' is the real-deal martial art - I, again, would have to disagree.
> ...

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## Emanuel Nicolescu

Hello Perpinder,

We are in complete agreement. I'd forgotten the details about the case, montreal, not Toronto, but I'm familiar with the rest of the debate and the question of reasonable accomodation. 

I would very much like to get into this gatka/shastar vidiya discussion but my knowledge is far too limited. All I can say is that I've been surprised to find no mention of Shastar Vidiya here in Toronto, despite a sizable Sikh community. 

Gatka, in contrast, has gotten relatively popular. I've also found it showy and it seems to me that the blade on shield hitting is at best intended to teach students to catch the weapon on their dhal and not risk injury through paries. A "spinning" object hurts, be it stick or tulwar. 

The use of Gatka to keep alive some remnants of a tradition is commendable IMO, especially when the purpose of the Sikh religion as a military order/vocation is no longer as relevant around the world as it once was, or may be still, in India. In most western cultures and places the wear of weapons is forbidden and socially unacceptable. The opportunity to use swords and daggers, and therefore the focus on their teaching, are consequently limited. 

That said, I would like to see more of Shastar Vidiya here is Toronto. It is an impressive art, and, as a collector of Indian arms, I do appreciate the teaching of their use being kept alive.

Cheers,
Emanuel

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## harvinder singh

About the article I posted above, no one can claim shastar vidiya is a fake or it is the same as gatka because Niddar Singh demonstrated the art to Krishna Godhania (one of the leading authorities on Filipino Martial Arts in the UK and Europe www.krishnagodhania.com). He clearly understood how gatka and shastar vidiya are on two different ends of the spectrum. 

they both compared arts then Krishna interviewed Nihang Nidar Singh for the magazine ''martial arts illustrated'.
If someone from a Filipino martial arts background such as khrisna who is amazing in his own art can recognize shastar vidiya as a deadly art why cannot other sikhs? is their hatred for one man so strong that they cannot comprehend how good this martial art of our ancestors is?.


zulu warrior

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## Perpinder Singh

Harvinder -

Yes, I do disagree - it shouldn't be that surprising - there are very few things on which all people agree completely.

I think you misunderstood what I wrote in my earlier post, or perhaps my views were not presented as clearly. I'll take another stab at it, and respond to some of what you've written.

Re the terminology, the words gatka and shastar-vidya are often used interchangeably by many.

Re gatka, there will be those who swing their swords around 'aimlessly' and those who do not.

No, you did not mention Muay Thai, but you did completely miss the point that was being made. Please re-read, and the context of my example should be clear, and the reason it was provided. Essentially, as mentioned above, and in the earlier post, not all gatka/shastarvidya instructors are the same, and not all gatka is relegated to the realm of show and nothing else.

Have you trained with Baba Nihal Singh ji or seen him train? I seriously doubt it. As such, it is more than a little ridiculous to be making assumptions about what he does or doesn't know, without any actual knowledge of the same.

Moreover, who is the arbiter regarding what are 'low-level forms', in-effectual gatka, and proper shastarvidya? Is it your school, its instructor and its students? Are you the only ones to judge what is genuine and what is not? Is your school truly the only one in the entire world which teaches the true, genuine martial art of the Sikhs? Is there no one else? No one at all?

Maybe the answer is yes, and your school is the ONLY place for genuine instruction, and EVERYONE else is a fake, or teaches ineffectual, garbage techniques - I don't know for sure. 

However, I've been involved in martial arts for a big chunk of my life, and like others who've been around for a while, and been around the block a few times, we've seen such claims before. I'm sure many on this forum can recall some school claiming to be the only one teaching the true, most genuinest, awesomest form of Super-Ninjitsu, or some instructor claiming to be the only one teaching the lost but most dangerous art of "Shaolin Unicorn-Style" kung-fu.

I mean no offense, but take it how you will: I understand what you're selling, but I ain't buying  :Smilie: 

....









> greetings.
> 
> 'Now, if the issue is that 'gatka' is showy, ineffectual stick-twirling and 'shastar-vidya' is the real-deal martial art - I, again, would have to disagree.'
> 
> disagree? when number mr perpinder singh lets go in dept with this to an extent if you dont mind.
> I guess you have heard of dasam and sarbloh granth? does maharaj say swing your weapons aimlessly? or does he say do chatka of the enemy? 
> 
> you havent been to the shastar vidiya akara if you have then you will see the differance, we dont swing weapons around, in formation in war do you actually think the singhs used to spin around???? in tight formations no space to move just enough to do a few strikes to the neck a thrust etc? i dont think so mate.
> 
> ...

----------


## Perpinder Singh

...

Furthermore, it does not bother me that Niddar Singh calls himself the 'last remaining master'. Niddar Singh could call himself the 'last remaining legend', or the 'last remaining king of the world' - I could care less. As long as the instruction is good and I'm learning, titles are irrelevant in my eyes.

(On that note, Niddar Singh does seem to be a good instructor, and if I'm ever in England, I'd love to drop in for a few classes. I'm sure there are many things I could learn from him.)

But out of curiousity, who gave Niddar Singh the title of the 'last remaining master'? Has this been acknowledged and bestowed upon him by any of the Sikh Takhats (Seats of Authority)? Has this been acknowledged by those in the Taruna Dal or the Buddha Dal? Has this been acknowledged and accepted by any of the large, representative Sikh bodies, either in India or in the diaspora?

*Or, is this a title Niddar Singh has bestowed upon himself?* 

I'm not being facetious; I'm genuinely curious.

...



Regarding names of other guys, I don't have a slew of them to hand out - my exposure has been pretty localized. Most of the gatka I've seen has been showy, and to my eye, ineffectual so I've avoided such classes; however, there have been a few excellent experiences.

The first would be Baba Nihal Singh ji. I learned from him for a short period of time - a week perhaps. It would be incorrect to say I learned swordsmanship from him, though I wish I could.The second is a guy named Mahavir Singh, who I trained with 8 or so years ago. 


regards,
Perpinder Singh





> greetings.
> 
> 'Now, if the issue is that 'gatka' is showy, ineffectual stick-twirling and 'shastar-vidya' is the real-deal martial art - I, again, would have to disagree.'
> 
> disagree? when number mr perpinder singh lets go in dept with this to an extent if you dont mind.
> I guess you have heard of dasam and sarbloh granth? does maharaj say swing your weapons aimlessly? or does he say do chatka of the enemy? 
> 
> you havent been to the shastar vidiya akara if you have then you will see the differance, we dont swing weapons around, in formation in war do you actually think the singhs used to spin around???? in tight formations no space to move just enough to do a few strikes to the neck a thrust etc? i dont think so mate.
> 
> ...

----------


## Perpinder Singh

Hello Emanuel,

Thanks for your post - you are correct, it was the Multani case in Montreal.


I think you'll find the terms gatka and shastarvidya are used interchangeably by many, but gatka is definitely the more common term.

There are probably a number of places that teach some form of gatka/shastar-vidya in or around Toronto, and you should definitely go and check some of these places out if you're interested in the art.

Of course, go in with a critical eye and hard questions! As with other martial arts, there are going to be those putting forward a weak product, and others who are not. I wouldn't necessarily be put off if you see some stick twirling etc. but do ask why and see what else is offered.

I don't know if the following place is good or not, but it seems to offer a variety of martial arts and might be worth checking out: http://www.gatka.ca/Gatka/Academy.html

Re the Sikh religion having the purpose of being a military order/vocation, I understand where you are coming from with that statement, and it is widely held thought about Sikhs and Sikhism. However, it is incorrect. 

While the soldier aspect is important to a Sikh, so is that of being a saint; the two go hand-in-hand. The martial race theory pushed by the Brits, while it does my heart proud as a Sikh  :Smilie: , was more of a tool used by the Raj. They said the same of the Ghurkas and the Highland Scots, and used them in their wars, in much the same manner.

Certainly, while much of Sikh history is colored by war and armed struggle, it would be incorrect to say Sikhism's purpose revolves around soldiering or being a military order.

Sikhism was a distinct movement, seperate and different than the two prevailing religious traditions: Islam and Hinduism. The Mughals saw the Sikhs as a threat to their empire, and the Hindu high-castes saw the Sikhs as a threat to their religious beliefs, traditions, and power over the lower-castes (Sikhism did away with the caste system). 

At times, this didn't leave Sikhs with very many options but the sword  :Smilie: 

I'll stop there before I forget myself and start expounding on Sikh history and theology - especially since I understand religion, politics and guns are subjects best kept off of the forum - ha!

Please feel free to send me a PM if there is anything of particular interest to you. Google is great for answers but miserable at fostering good, engaging discussion  :Smilie: 

regards,
Perpinder








> Hello Perpinder,
> 
> We are in complete agreement. I'd forgotten the details about the case, montreal, not Toronto, but I'm familiar with the rest of the debate and the question of reasonable accomodation. 
> 
> I would very much like to get into this gatka/shastar vidiya discussion but my knowledge is far too limited. All I can say is that I've been surprised to find no mention of Shastar Vidiya here in Toronto, despite a sizable Sikh community. 
> 
> Gatka, in contrast, has gotten relatively popular. I've also found it showy and it seems to me that the blade on shield hitting is at best intended to teach students to catch the weapon on their dhal and not risk injury through paries. A "spinning" object hurts, be it stick or tulwar. 
> 
> The use of Gatka to keep alive some remnants of a tradition is commendable IMO, especially when the purpose of the Sikh religion as a military order/vocation is no longer as relevant around the world as it once was, or may be still, in India. In most western cultures and places the wear of weapons is forbidden and socially unacceptable. The opportunity to use swords and daggers, and therefore the focus on their teaching, are consequently limited. 
> ...

----------


## harvinder singh

> ...
> 
> 
> 
> But out of curiousity, who gave Niddar Singh the title of the 'last remaining master'? Has this been acknowledged and bestowed upon him by any of the Sikh Takhats (Seats of Authority)? Has this been acknowledged by those in the Taruna Dal or the Buddha Dal? Has this been acknowledged and accepted by any of the large, representative Sikh bodies, either in India or in the diaspora?
> 
> *Or, is this a title Niddar Singh has bestowed upon himself?*



Sachkhand vasi Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh 96crore gave him agiya when baba ji was budda dal jathedar

----------


## Nav Ghosh

> Sachkhand vasi Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh 96crore gave him agiya when baba ji was budda dal jathedar


Is there any evidence corroborating this? Letter, certificate, statement, anything at all?

Some more questions:

1) When did Niddar Singh stop teaching gatka and start teaching shastarvidiya? Originally in about 2000 or 2001, his website stated he taught 'chatka gatka' but he changed this. Also if you look at his website it says he taught a man called Pirthi Bedi, and Mr Bedi then went on to win a gatka competition. Mr Bedi was well known around Southall etc. as a gatka man.

2) Why is it OK for Europeans to reconstruct a historical martial art, but it's seen as bad when Sikhs do it? It seems pretty obvious that Niddar Singh has reconstructed a historical martial art going by some written sources and by bits and pieces he heard here and there from various people. To my mind, there's nothing wrong with that. A reconstructed martial art can be a good martial art. But Sikhs don't see it like that? It seems it has to be presented as a living tradition that has always been there, which is a bit sad and dishonest. How likely is it that a man in Birmingham is the last surviving master of a living martial arts tradition that doesn't exist anymore in India? Isn't it more likely the Birmingham man went to India and, like Pirthi Bedi, learned what he could from various nihangs there, and then came back to the UK, reconstructed it into one piece and set himself as the Grandmaster?

3) Given all the changes in the history of this art as per the website over the years, is there any historical document proving any part of the lineage of Niddar Singh's art?

----------


## harvinder singh

first do your research on where the term chatka gatka came from, who said it? find out yourself ghosh.
pritipal was taught shastar vidiya he also if I am correct met baba gyana singh when he was young whoooooo taught the vidiya to niddars teacher.
niddars reconstructed it from written sources? you know and I know there isnt any written source about he high pentras, nav your a fudhu. 


come to akara and speak about it to the 'dishonest' niddar singh then if you can say all this crap to me on here say it to the man himself whos apparently made the art up himself.

if niddar has made up this art why hasnt chris crudelli spotted it? chris has been quoted on the BBC radio to say he wishes to learn the art and how amazing it is, why cant you fanatics leave your crap to one side and respect the vidiya rather then slandering it because you dont like the instructor ? 

if you are on about how niddars reconstructed this tell me what exact source he has used..your going to say dasam and sarbloh granth right??? well tell me what ang from there he has used....because ive read those lines and I havent seen NOOOO nihang move like he does, guru gobind singh talks about flicking like a flame when engaging tell me what nihang can do that.


if you think the linage is false then I think your chucking dirt on Akali Nihang Baba Darbara singh who was the 2nd jathedar of panth akali Budha dal and 1st gurdev of the akara, if you have a problem with the lineage come to akara and speak to niddar singh about it rather then slandering the likes of baba darbara singh and akali nihang shaheed sukha singh!!!!!!!

just because you have a personal problem with niddar doesnt mean you can bring it to this forum, i suggest you either speak to him about how hes a 'fake', I dont have anything else to say.

but I will use this 

  'To show off in front of a true Sikh is not right. I will tell you this: always speak truth to a Sikh. Always conceal your self, "He who attains it hides it", [translation of a quote from Adi Guru Durbar]. Just leave it at this. Now, I have explained one word to you will you remember it? "He who attains it hides it," we have attained this [Chatka Gatka] but have it concealed. It is not 'Jahir' [revealed]. If it is revealed then it will be lost.'
('Gupti' Nihang Baba at Akali Nihang Baba Kundan Singh's 'Shauni', transcript of interview, 5th August 1994)


fateh





> Is there any evidence corroborating this? Letter, certificate, statement, anything at all?
> 
> Some more questions:
> 
> 1) When did Niddar Singh stop teaching gatka and start teaching shastarvidiya? Originally in about 2000 or 2001, his website stated he taught 'chatka gatka' but he changed this. Also if you look at his website it says he taught a man called Pirthi Bedi, and Mr Bedi then went on to win a gatka competition. Mr Bedi was well known around Southall etc. as a gatka man.
> 
> 2) Why is it OK for Europeans to reconstruct a historical martial art, but it's seen as bad when Sikhs do it? It seems pretty obvious that Niddar Singh has reconstructed a historical martial art going by some written sources and by bits and pieces he heard here and there from various people. To my mind, there's nothing wrong with that. A reconstructed martial art can be a good martial art. But Sikhs don't see it like that? It seems it has to be presented as a living tradition that has always been there, which is a bit sad and dishonest. How likely is it that a man in Birmingham is the last surviving master of a living martial arts tradition that doesn't exist anymore in India? Isn't it more likely the Birmingham man went to India and, like Pirthi Bedi, learned what he could from various nihangs there, and then came back to the UK, reconstructed it into one piece and set himself as the Grandmaster?
> 
> 3) Given all the changes in the history of this art as per the website over the years, is there any historical document proving any part of the lineage of Niddar Singh's art?

----------


## Perpinder Singh

Harvinder Singh,

I didn't understand much of what you wrote below in response to Nav, but it seems as if you and Nav have some personal history, and I have no interest in getting involved. 

However, please refrain from swearing/vulgar language ("fudhu"), and personal attacks ("fanatics" etc.), or the administrators will remove you from this forum. 

This forum has been a place of polite, if sometimes vigourous, debate and discussion, and I wish to see it remain that way. I personally have no patience for the type of language you have used and am pretty sure the admins will feel the same way.

Any argument you wish to make, can be made without using inappropriate language or by personally attacking other forumites.

I respect that you have many things to share with the forum, and most likely have relevant information to put forward regarding the questions asked, and look forward to what you have to say...but lets carry on this discussion like gentlemen. Thank you.

regards,
Perpinder 






> first do your research on where the term chatka gatka came from, who said it? find out yourself ghosh.
> pritipal was taught shastar vidiya he also if I am correct met baba gyana singh when he was young whoooooo taught the vidiya to niddars teacher.
> niddars reconstructed it from written sources? you know and I know there isnt any written source about he high pentras, nav your a fudhu. 
> 
> 
> come to akara and speak about it to the 'dishonest' niddar singh then if you can say all this crap to me on here say it to the man himself whos apparently made the art up himself.
> 
> if niddar has made up this art why hasnt chris crudelli spotted it? chris has been quoted on the BBC radio to say he wishes to learn the art and how amazing it is, why cant you fanatics leave your crap to one side and respect the vidiya rather then slandering it because you dont like the instructor ? 
> 
> ...

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## Perpinder Singh

Harvinder,

I'm hoping you can address a number of questions that have been posed. 
I'm sure I'm not the only one on this forum who is interested in hearing the answers.

For your convenience, I'll cut and paste or reword the questions in this one post.


1. You stated Baba Nihal Singh ji did not have the 'vidya'/knowledge. Have you trained with Baba Nihal Singh ji or seen him train?

2. Who is the arbiter regarding what are 'low-level forms', in-effectual gatka, and proper shastarvidya? Is it your school, its instructor and its students? Are you the ONLY ones who can judge what is genuine and what is not? Is your school truly the ONLY one in the ENTIRE WORLD that teaches the true, genuine martial art of the Sikhs? Is there no one else? No one at all?

3. Who gave Niddar Singh the title of the 'last remaining master'? Is this a title Niddar Singh has bestowed upon himself? 

You have stated this title was bestowed upon Niddar Singh by Baba Santa Singh ji. Can you substantiate this? 

One would imagine, that with a massively important matter like this - declaring someone the 'last remaining master' - there would be a written statement or video recording or something...

Without some form of substantiation, what is keeping a nobody like me from saying Baba Santa Singh ji declared me the 'last remaining master'? 

I hope you can appreciate why your answer is not satisfactory. Any substantiation/evidence you can provide would be very helpful. Thank you.

regards,
Perpinder Singh

ps. Please also answer Nav's questions:


1) When did Niddar Singh stop teaching gatka and start teaching shastarvidiya? Originally in about 2000 or 2001, his website stated he taught 'chatka gatka' but he changed this. (Me:_Please also answer why he changed this?_)


2) How likely is it that a man in Birmingham is the last surviving master of a living martial arts tradition that doesn't exist anymore in India? Isn't it more likely the Birmingham man went to India and, like Pirthi Bedi, learned what he could from various nihangs there, and then came back to the UK, reconstructed it into one piece and set himself as the Grandmaster?


3) Is there any historical document proving any part of the lineage of Niddar Singh's art? 












> first do your research on where the term chatka gatka came from, who said it? find out yourself ghosh.
> pritipal was taught shastar vidiya he also if I am correct met baba gyana singh when he was young whoooooo taught the vidiya to niddars teacher.
> niddars reconstructed it from written sources? you know and I know there isnt any written source about he high pentras, nav your a fudhu. 
> 
> 
> come to akara and speak about it to the 'dishonest' niddar singh then if you can say all this crap to me on here say it to the man himself whos apparently made the art up himself.
> 
> if niddar has made up this art why hasnt chris crudelli spotted it? chris has been quoted on the BBC radio to say he wishes to learn the art and how amazing it is, why cant you fanatics leave your crap to one side and respect the vidiya rather then slandering it because you dont like the instructor ? 
> 
> ...

----------


## J.G. Hopkins

Please maintain civil discourse.  Personal attacks will not be tolerated.  This is an English language forum, so please use non-English words as they pertain to the topic of the forum (swords  :Smilie:  ).  It is difficult to moderate a language one does not speak or understand.  It would be a shame to have to lock this unique and educational thread.  

Thank you,
Jonathan

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## Nav Ghosh

> first do your research on where the term chatka gatka came from, who said it?


The problem is that on the 2000/2001 website, it only mentioned 'chatka gatka'. Afterwards this seems to have undergone numerous revisions and additions, and it now says 'Sanatan Hindu-Sikh Darbara Singh Shiv Shastarvidiya Akhara' or something like that. 




> pritipal was taught shastar vidiya he also if I am correct met baba gyana singh when he was young whoooooo taught the vidiya to niddars teacher.


I knew Pirthi. He learned nothing but gatka in the UK. He did not go to Birmingham to learn shastarvidiya but went to India and learned it there. What I'm suggesting is that this is exactly the same pattern as Niddar Singh. Niddar Singh can't be the last living master of an art he learned from someone or some people in India, unless he has reconstructed it from fragments and come up with his own art.




> niddars reconstructed it from written sources? you know and I know there isnt any written source about he high pentras,


Actually there is. But that's beside the point. I asked whether there is a document proving that Santa Singh gave agaiya to Niddar Singh, or proving any part of the alleged lineage of Niddar Singh's art. Please answer this.




> nav your a fudhu.


I have no idea who you are. All I know is you have come here, invited people to come and fight your teacher, and said you are ready to answer questions. We shall ignore the fact that you aren't actually a nihang and yet have given yourself that title on this forum. When questions are put your way however, you have no answers but foul-mouthed insults by way of response. Is the student a reflection of the teacher I wonder? Why is it that one does not encounter this attitude when dealing with traditional arts with documented lineage such as Japanese koryu?




> come to akara and speak about it to the 'dishonest' niddar singh then if you can say all this crap to me on here say it to the man himself whos apparently made the art up himself.


I didn't say he made it all up himself. Go back and read my post. I'm saying he took bits and pieces from here and there and sewed them together to create his own style, and I have no problem with that but apparently you Sikhs do have a problem with it.




> if niddar has made up this art why hasnt chris crudelli spotted it? chris has been quoted on the BBC radio to say he wishes to learn the art and how amazing it is,


Again, Chris Crudelli's opinion is more about promoting the martial arts in general than exposing flaws in history. In one of his programs I saw he was equally impressed with an octogenarian woman in China who is still lactating because of her alleged supernatural powers. Did he ask Niddar Singh for some proof of the lineage of his art? Of course not. I am asking here. If there is NO evidence supporting the alleged lineage of this art, then just say so.




> why cant you fanatics leave your crap to one side and respect the vidiya rather then slandering it because you dont like the instructor ?


Fanatic what? You're obviously mistaking me for someone else. I have no fundamental beliefs in the supernatural, which is why I don't have a problem with someone reconstructing a martial art.




> if you are on about how niddars reconstructed this tell me what exact source he has used..your going to say dasam and sarbloh granth right???


I think it's most likely that Niddar Singh learned a few techniques from some people in India. If you look at the tiger, pig, snake style fighting forms, these same animals are a subset of a southern kalaripayat martial art. 




> well tell me what ang from there he has used....because ive read those lines and I havent seen NOOOO nihang move like he does, guru gobind singh talks about flicking like a flame when engaging tell me what nihang can do that.


Guru Gobind Singh was not completely original. He, like the early Sikhs, picked up and used what was there, whether it was Mughal, Persian or Rajput or (later) European arms and armour, plus tactics and martial arts. I don't think this art has anything to do with a Sikh Guru as there is no evidence for this at all.




> if you think the linage is false then I think your chucking dirt on Akali Nihang Baba Darbara singh who was the 2nd jathedar of panth akali Budha dal and 1st gurdev of the akara, if you have a problem with the lineage come to akara and speak to niddar singh about it rather then slandering the likes of baba darbara singh and akali nihang shaheed sukha singh!!!!!!!


That's very amusing. Now then, I ask you once more, where is the evidence for this alleged 'lineage'? There should be some historical documents if what you say is true.




> just because you have a personal problem with niddar doesnt mean you can bring it to this forum, i suggest you either speak to him about how hes a 'fake', I dont have anything else to say.


No, you're mistaking me for someone else. I have no issues with Niddar Singh, I have met him and think he's personable. But that doesn't take away from my need for evidence. I don't believe these grandiose unsubstantiated claims that are unsupported by even a scrap of paper.




> ('Gupti' Nihang Baba at Akali Nihang Baba Kundan Singh's 'Shauni', transcript of interview, 5th August 1994)
> 
> fateh


Interesting you mention a 'gupti' (secret or hidden object) because at first Niddar Singh mentioned he was taught by a 'gupti' nihang warrior, and later he changed this to Baba Mohinder Singh, who apparently was the opposite of a gupti as he wore a char-ayna and wandered around India looking for akharas. How do you account for this? An overactive imagination, do you think?

----------


## harvinder singh

Prithi Bedi was originally a Gatka ustad. he came to Niddar Singh Nihang when he learnt of Shastar Vidiya, here he studied for a certain long amount of time. he then asked Niddar Singh Nihang if he would give him premission to ener the Gatka tournament (Yudh right) with his knowledge of Shastar Vidiya. 
Gurdev Ji gave permission but said that he must fight as per Shastar Vidiya, not Gatka. with this knowledge (and those that witnessed the tournament can back this up) Prithi Bedi won with his "unorthodox gatka techniques".

oral tradition !!!!!!!!!!!!! well most of the sikh history sakhis are oral tradition maybe they are all lies.

I couldnt give a crap about your questions just proves to me how sikhs like you will do anything to disregard the vidiya, just because you hate the guy, im a sikh? id rather be rather than be in a panth with guys like you, woudlnt suprise me if your one of the southall taksali boys.
all these wonderful sakhis we hear wernt all written down correct ? maybe the one such as panja shaib thats all a lie maybe the countless jungs in the 18th C were lies because not all were written down.


seeing as you met him why didnt you ask him about the lineage ???

I can say what I want to say ain't nothin to it gangsta rap made me do it

----------


## harvinder singh

a site, the guys who run the website arent niddars biggest fans...

http://www.nihangsingh.org/Guru%20Nanak%20Dev%20Ji.html

 This divine union can be though o the almighty witnessing its own physical self in the form of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji. In this divine union between sargun (with form) and nargun (formless) of the supreme divinity, a dialogue took place which is known as the Mulmantr or root mantra for the Sikhs which is the openings stanza of the Adi Sru Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Practitioners of the Nihang Singh martial art 'Shastarvidiya' (science of weapons) believe that Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji also returned from their divine union having attained the knowledge of Shastarvidiya, which the passed on to Baba Budha Ji.



" During their divine union Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji acquired various sciences, arts and forms of knowledge. Amongst these was Shastarvidiya which he blessed to Baba Budha Ji to preserve until the coming of the sixth Guru." (Jathedar Nihang Baba Labh Singh,  Audio recording, December 2008) 


_I don't think this art has anything to do with a Sikh Guru as there is no evidence for this at all._

so your saying the vidiya doesnt have anything to do with the gurus? when a Jathedar such as Akali Nihang Baba Labh Singh Ji (Mukh Sevadar Sri Darbar Zaffarnama Sahib) 

akali labh singh is a  Mahakal, your questioning a mahakal singh? the very form of akaalpurakh?

I suggest we leave our political issues away from this website, we are making us 'Sikhs' look like fudhus...

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## Perpinder Singh

Harvinder,

Could you please answer the questions I asked in my last post? Thank you.

regards,
Perpinder

----------


## harvinder singh

> Harvinder,
> 
> Could you please answer the questions I asked in my last post? Thank you.
> 
> regards,
> Perpinder



What is false I will call false, even though people try to silence me
I do not care what people think, I will speak the truth from my mouth
(Sri Dasam Guru Granth Sahib)

----------


## Nav Ghosh

> Prithi Bedi was originally a Gatka ustad. he came to Niddar Singh Nihang when he learnt of Shastar Vidiya, here he studied for a certain long amount of time. he then asked Niddar Singh Nihang if he would give him premission to ener the Gatka tournament (Yudh right) with his knowledge of Shastar Vidiya. 
> Gurdev Ji gave permission but said that he must fight as per Shastar Vidiya, not Gatka. with this knowledge (and those that witnessed the tournament can back this up) Prithi Bedi won with his "unorthodox gatka techniques".


According to the obituary of Pirthi Bedi written with the approval of his father, Mr Bedi did indeed go to India to learn shastar vidiya. I accept that after his return, he associated with Niddar Singh and trained with him. I imagine they had a lot in common, having gone to India to learn shastarvidiya from persons whose identity is already a matter of myth/legend.




> oral tradition !!!!!!!!!!!!! well most of the sikh history sakhis are oral tradition maybe they are all lies.


Oral tradition is extremely unreliable if unsupported by contemporary evidence. As an Indian myself, I admit that Indians tend to exaggerate stories over time, beginning with hyperbole, and then kings become gods, generals become mythological bigger-than-life characters etc. If you look at the given 'lineage' of this art as supplied by Niddar Singh, again the website has undergone numerous revisions. Originally, it supplied a 'lineage' starting with Ram Chander (currently worshipped as a god in the modern Hindu pantheon) and ended with Niddar Singh. Now the lineage chart is gone, and it states only that Baba Buddha taught the Sikh Guru Hargobind. Now, where does the mythology end and fact begin, in this lineage? I take it all with a huge fistful of salt until I see some proof, at which point I may revise my opinion. 

By the way, why did the site circa 2004 state that Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and all the rest of the Sikh gurus were shastardhari and knew shastarvidiya, while now it says the 9th Guru was the first Guru to be 'taught' shastarvidiya by Baba Buddha?

I also recall that the site at that time stated Niddar Singh was 'Jathedar of Budha Dal UK', a very bold claim that turned out to be demonstrably false and was eventually retracted.




> I couldnt give a crap about your questions just proves to me how sikhs like you will do anything to disregard the vidiya, just because you hate the guy,


I don't hate anyone. I'm just asking for evidence. If new evidence comes to light, I will reconsider my position but until then I doubt this story.




> all these wonderful sakhis we hear wernt all written down correct ? maybe the one such as panja shaib thats all a lie maybe the countless jungs in the 18th C were lies because not all were written down.


Not getting into a religious debate as that would be going off-topic, but yes there were numerous invented sakhis including one that even had Guru Nanak 'predict' the coming of British rule and appear to endorse it!




> seeing as you met him why didnt you ask him about the lineage ???


I've got no good answer for this. I should have asked about it but it just wasn't on my mind at the time. I'm not saying he has nothing worthwhile to teach, just that I don't believe his politically-correct proclamations or assertions, all of which seem to hold the non-Sikh western opinion as some sort of holy Grail that must be upheld whatever the cost, even if that cost is countless Platonisms. In the 'holy' cause of this public relations exercise, too many inconsistencies and drastic revisions have taken place for me to find it credible.

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## Manouchehr M.

I would like to ask everyone to follow the forum rules and follow the discussion accordingly.

Kind regards
Manouchehr

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## Perpinder Singh

> What is false I will call false, even though people try to silence me
> I do not care what people think, I will speak the truth from my mouth
> (Sri Dasam Guru Granth Sahib)



I'm glad to hear that Harvinder. Unfortunately, you still have not answered the questions.

You chose to make some very strong statements, and have simply been asked to clarify your position or substantiate your statements. Your failure or unwillingness to do so, raises doubt about the validity of your statements.

I hate to browbeat on this matter, so I will not be asking you to address the questions again.

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## harvinder singh

1) When did Niddar Singh stop teaching gatka and start teaching shastarvidiya? Originally in about 2000 or 2001, his website stated he taught 'chatka gatka' but he changed this. 


2) How likely is it that a man in Birmingham is the last surviving master of a living martial arts tradition that doesn't exist anymore in India? Isn't it more likely the Birmingham man went to India and, like Pirthi Bedi, learned what he could from various nihangs there, and then came back to the UK, reconstructed it into one piece and set himself as the Grandmaster?


3) Is there any historical document proving any part of the lineage of Niddar Singh's art?



1)   	chatka gatka is the informal term for shastar vidiya. from here, the name gatka was given when the exhibition "martial art" was produced. this is because ALL high level techniques (chatka) were removed. The name was changed as many people then started beleiving that shastar vidiya and gatka were the same, the chatka gatka was given tis original name  Shastar Vidiya.   do you know what gurdev of this akara said to gatka practitioners if what you do is gatka what I do is chatka gatka!



2)   	the theory of Niddar Singh Nihang reconstructing Shastar Vidiya is just a myth. this has come about due to his infamous self that people do not like. so to put him down they go for what he stands for - Shastar Vidiya. people spread lies about it and then as the lies are told so many times, they seem like being of truthful origin. There are others in India who know of and who have studied/practised Shastar Vidiya. but only to a certain extent. These include the late Singh Sahib Sachkhand Vasi Akaali Nihang Baba Santa Singh 96 Crore Jathedar of Buddha Dal, and Zinda Shaheed Akaali Nihang Baba Nihaal Singh Ji Jathedar shaheeda misil. There are those who also have knowledge of the background of Shastar Vidiya;  Baba Balbir Singh (some dont agree with him, I dont) . Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Damdami Taksaal also knew of and spoke about Shastar Vidiya. Baba Giaan Singh (Nirmala) also wrote much about Shastar Vidiya in his various books, as he had learnt Shastar Vidiya himself, being around the time of Akali Nihang Baba Sawan Singh 'Bangroo', Akali Nihang Baba Mangal Singh Ji and possibly Akali Nihang Baba Giana Singh aka 'Rabb Ji', all three  respectful Gurdevs of the Shastar Vidiya Akhara. when the british invaded india, they issued a shoot to kill order for Nihang Singhs. therefore many died. Shastar Vidiya is a martial art which is solely for killing, so it was kept a secret. This can be seen with Shaolin Kung (Gung) Fu. this martial art which is widely known and respected (as Shastar Vidiya was in India before the invasion of the British) is now dying out. so they have resorted in creating a demo "martial art" to attract people to Shaolin Kung Fu. but this martial art, the greatest in China is dying out. when there is just one Grandmaster left teaching, people will question "how can this one person be the last remaining teacher of kung fu, hes a fake!". Baba Mohinder Singh Ji, the previous Gurdev of the Shastar Vidiya Akhara knew and understood the way that the sikhs of india felt towards Shastar Vidiya. with the introduction of machine guns, armour peircing rounds and grenades, who needs martial arts? so it was his order to send the martial art to the West, back to where Niddar Singh Nihang came from. and if you look from the outside for a moment please...that was the best decision to make. here in the UK many people support Shastar Vidiya. you can go onto any sikh forum and you will see people fighting in support of Shastar Vidiya because we understand that if Niddar Singh Nihang is to stop teaching, this martial art, the final peice of our heritage will die along with it. so how can we live with ourselves if we know that without bothering to go and learn, and by slandering the martial art itslf, we have contributed to the loss of our Guru's Vidiya. in india there are no group of people trying to bring back shastar vidiya. nobody cares. to them gatka is what should be learned. but it is all showmanship with fancy looking spins and jumps.A quote from Pracheen Panth Prakash Be initiated into the Khalsa go hunting and preserve Shastar Vidiya any way you can. This written by Rattan Singh Bhangu, and in Pracheen Panth Prakash there are many references to Shastar Vidiya and direct descriptions of high level techniques. It is a well known fact within the both Buddha Dal and Tarna Dal, that Niddar Singh Nihang is the only one who has complete knowledge of Shastar Vidiya, as he sometimes teaches when he goes to india. Baba Nihaal Singh Ji, who knew Akaali Nihang Baba Mohinder Singh ji, had actually asked Niddar Singh Nihang to come and teach Shastar Vidiya at Harian-Vela. But someone here will undoubtedly ask for proof of this.  



3)      there is a letter signed by Akaali Nihang Baba Giaan Singh Ji stating that Baba Mohinder Singh Ji would follow as the next Gurdev of the akhara. and subsequently   there is a letter signed by Akaali Nihang Baba Mohinder Singh Ji, stating that Niddar Singh Nihang is the next Gurdev of the Shastar Vidiya Akhara.  Also in Raqba there is a Gurdev called Baba Gyana singh who is around 90+ years old(a lot of controversy about this baba - many people have spread lies about him to try and prove niddar singh is wrong) who teaches the lower forms of Shastar Vidiya, he also has a lineage to Akaali Nihang Baba Giaan Singh Ji Giaana Rabb, he has also met niddar singh and niddar singh said this baba only knows some of the low pentras and forms not much sadly ,and is witness to the lineage of the Bhujangi Shastar Vidiya Akhara leading to Niddar Singh Nihang from the time of Akaali Nihang Baba Giaan Singh Ji.

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## Nav Ghosh

> 1)   	chatka gatka is the informal term for shastar vidiya.


Source?

Shastarvidiya as the martial art taught by Niddar Singh has gone through numerous name changes as per the website, and there doesn't seem to be any historical justification for any of them unless I'm missing something? Why did he just mention 'chatka gatka' in the first version of the website and keep all its other names 'Baba Darbara Singh', 'kshatriya', 'Hindu-Sikh', 'Suryavanshi', etc. apparently secret?

Is there any historical evidence at all for:

1) The claim that shastarvidiya refers to a specific and secret martial art as opposed to being the Sanskrit/Hindu word for 'knowledge of weapons' as used in the Vedas?
2) The claim that there is or was a martial art called 'chatka gatka'?




> from here, the name gatka was given when the exhibition "martial art" was produced. this is because ALL high level techniques (chatka) were removed.


So what you're saying is, malicious persons (whether coerced by the British Raj or for some other reasons) deliberately let a worthwhile traditional martial art die a natural death, and the result is exhibition gatka.
I'm sorry but I find this claim simply ridiculous as exhibition gatka is itself something very new and restricted to the Sikhs. In the 1930s/40s my Hindu grandmother learned gatka at school, where it was just an ordinary singlesticks fencing game native to India. This was commonplace, like wrestling used to be. 




> The name was changed as many people then started beleiving that shastar vidiya and gatka were the same, the chatka gatka was given tis original name  Shastar Vidiya.   do you know what gurdev of this akara said to gatka practitioners if what you do is gatka what I do is chatka gatka!


Personally I think I have a fair idea of what the teacher has been saying. What I'm short of is historical evidence  - if any exist - for these claims. If you can help fill the gap I would be obliged.




> 2)   	the theory of Niddar Singh Nihang reconstructing Shastar Vidiya is just a myth.


Now you're just doing a classic reveral.  Let's talk about historical evidence for the art as taught by Niddar Singh. I have asked for proof that he was given permission to teach his art on behalf of the Budha Dal, or any document proving any part of the lineage/myth of this art.

On the subject of myths, perhaps you can tell us whether the term 'nihang' occurs in pre-18th century Sikh literature. Why is it supposed to refer to the present-day pretenders to that title, namely the Budha Dal and Taruna Dal? Can you answer this without reference to hearsay and ideology? I am looking for historical evidence for these modern day myths:

1) That the term 'nihangs' was supposed to refer exclusively to Sikhs - and a very small group of Sikhs that has enjoyed a revival since the 1940s - and not to Hindu or Muslim warriors;
2) That the term 'shastarvidiya' refers to a specific set of martial art moves as opposed to its clear translation 'knowledge of weapons' for example knowledge of how to make a nuclear bomb;
3) That the given history of shastarvidiya (Baba Buddha etc.) is not a modern reconstruction and a myt




> this has come about due to his infamous self that people do not like. so to put him down they go for what he stands for - Shastar Vidiya.


How many times have I addressed this? When someone asks for evidence substantiating some very interesting claims, it's not because they have personal issues with the claimant.
Also, does he stand for Shastar Vidiya or for modern Sikhism? Surely the real agenda here is the polity and standing of Sikh political groups, and the way you Sikhs do this is by literally excommunicating anyone who questions the status quo. For instance how many people wrote the Dasam Granth or Sarbloh Granth? If a Sikh were to suggest it was an 18th century 'team effort' he would be instantly excommunicated. And yet, the earliest reference to nihangs in Sikh religious texts is the Dasam Granth.




> people spread lies about it and then as the lies are told so many times,


Exactly why I don't believe anything without evidence. I'm still waiting for that evidence for the lineage of Niddar Singh's martial art.




> These include the late Singh Sahib Sachkhand Vasi Akaali Nihang Baba Santa Singh 96 Crore Jathedar of Buddha Dal, and Zinda Shaheed Akaali Nihang Baba Nihaal Singh Ji Jathedar shaheeda misil. There are those who also have knowledge of the background of Shastar Vidiya;  Baba Balbir Singh (some dont agree with him, I dont) . Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Damdami Taksaal also knew of and spoke about Shastar Vidiya. Baba Giaan Singh (Nirmala) also wrote much about Shastar Vidiya in his various books, as he had learnt Shastar Vidiya himself, being around the time of Akali Nihang Baba Sawan Singh 'Bangroo', Akali Nihang Baba Mangal Singh Ji and possibly Akali Nihang Baba Giana Singh aka 'Rabb Ji', all three  respectful Gurdevs of the Shastar Vidiya Akhara. when the british invaded india, they issued a shoot to kill order for Nihang Singhs. therefore many died. Shastar Vidiya is a martial art which is solely for killing, so it was kept a secret.


Like Ninjutsu, right? And for the first time, and only in 21st century Birmingham, this secret too-deadly-for-school martial art is 'back'? Evidence, evidence, evidence. Where is it?




> This can be seen with Shaolin Kung (Gung) Fu. this martial art which is widely known and respected (as Shastar Vidiya was in India before the invasion of the British) is now dying out. so they have resorted in creating a demo "martial art" to attract people to Shaolin Kung Fu.


Bad example. Shaolin Kung Fu is very common. The Chinese promote wushu as a pure exhibition art but keep Shaolin kung fu separate. They don't hide the fact they created wushu in modern times as a showman art. Perhaps a better example here would be Ninjutsu?




> but this martial art, the greatest in China is dying out. when there is just one Grandmaster left teaching, people will question "how can this one person be the last remaining teacher of kung fu, hes a fake!".


Big surprise when people ask for evidence? 




> Baba Mohinder Singh Ji, the previous Gurdev of the Shastar Vidiya Akhara knew and understood the way that the sikhs of india felt towards Shastar Vidiya.


Evidence? How do you know he was the 'previous gurdev'? Where is the certificate or letter or statement? Same for 'Baba' Santa Singh: where is the proof he gave agaiya to Niddar Singh to teach shastarvidiya? People can say all kinds of things and attribute words to the dead easily. Remember both Mohinder Singh and Santa Singh were literate men in a literate society living in late 20th century India. There is documentary evidence for the notables in much earlier Sikh history such as 'Banda Bahadur'. Why no evidence supporting Niddar Singh's claims of authority from these 2 dead masters living in the modern period?




> with the introduction of machine guns, armour peircing rounds and grenades, who needs martial arts? so it was his order to send the martial art to the West, back to where Niddar Singh Nihang came from. and if you look from the outside for a moment please...that was the best decision to make. here in the UK many people support Shastar Vidiya. you can go onto any sikh forum and you will see people fighting in support of Shastar Vidiya because we understand that if Niddar Singh Nihang is to stop teaching, this martial art, the final peice of our heritage will die along with it. so how can we live with ourselves if we know that without bothering to go and learn,


Nobody says don't learn from so-and-so. 




> and by slandering the martial art itslf,


Here's what I suggest you consistently fail to understand. When someone asks you for proof, this is not slander. You've got to remember others support your right to believe anything you want even if they think it's nonsense and you're fooling yourself, but if those same people ask for evidence it's not 'slander' it's just common sense and avoiding prejudice.




> we have contributed to the loss of our Guru's Vidiya.


Who's 'we'? There's no 'we' anywhere, neither should there be. There are loads of vested interests and ambitious people, and most are out for themselves. Ask the difficult questions and face the uncomfortable truths.




> in india there are no group of people trying to bring back shastar vidiya.


The Indian government supports cultural events including Sikh gatka (the singlesticks traditional sport), kalaripayat, wrestling and other indigenous martial arts. They support touring groups etc.




> Pracheen Panth Prakash Be initiated into the Khalsa go hunting and preserve Shastar Vidiya any way you can.


Translate it fully into English not by halves. 'Be initiated into the Khalsa go hunting and maintain the knowledge of weapons any way you can'. By leaving Shastar Vidiya untranslated, you're opening the way for any Tom Dick and Harry to tell you about their super-duper legendarily illiterate martial art. By using the word illiterate here, I am referring to the complete and conspicuous absence of any supporting evidence for Niddar Singh's 'history' and martial art.




> This written by Rattan Singh Bhangu, and in Pracheen Panth Prakash there are many references to Shastar Vidiya and direct descriptions of high level techniques. It is a well known fact within the both Buddha Dal and Tarna Dal, that Niddar Singh Nihang is the only one who has complete knowledge of Shastar Vidiya, as he sometimes teaches when he goes to india.


The opinion of some modern people who have joined the modern organisations calling themselves 'Buddha Dal' and 'Taruna Dal' is of no interest. If they say they 'know' something, we want to know how they know it. However these people just keep saying 'oral tradition' whenever you ask for evidence. I am not inclined to take their word for anything.




> Baba Nihaal Singh Ji, who knew Akaali Nihang Baba Mohinder Singh ji, had actually asked Niddar Singh Nihang to come and teach Shastar Vidiya at Harian-Vela. But someone here will undoubtedly ask for proof of this.


No, I'm just interested in proof of where his martial art comes from. Who taught it to him and who gave him authority, if anyone actually did. If someone else believes his story, that doesn't make it true. Whether it's Nihal Singh, Krishna Godhania or Chris Crudelli. I could find more people who disbelieve, and again that would be worthless. Give us some evidence.




> 3)      there is a letter signed by Akaali Nihang Baba Giaan Singh Ji stating that Baba Mohinder Singh Ji would follow as the next Gurdev of the akhara. and subsequently   there is a letter signed by Akaali Nihang Baba Mohinder Singh Ji, stating that Niddar Singh Nihang is the next Gurdev of the Shastar Vidiya Akhara.


Do you remember the last days of 'Baba' Santa Singh very recently? All sorts of 'devoted' true-believer nihangs surrounded him and pressed his thumbprint into various land-transfer documents. If these letters exist as you say (and again, for all we know this could be one of so many things you've heard from nihangs with their oral tradition and all), where can they be inspected for authenticity?  Thanks




> Also in Raqba there is a Gurdev called Baba Gyana singh who is around 90+ years old(a lot of controversy about this baba - many people have spread lies about him to try and prove niddar singh is wrong) who teaches the lower forms of Shastar Vidiya, he also has a lineage to Akaali Nihang Baba Giaan Singh Ji Giaana Rabb, he has also met niddar singh and niddar singh said this baba only knows some of the low pentras and forms not much sadly ,and is witness to the lineage of the Bhujangi Shastar Vidiya Akhara leading to Niddar Singh Nihang from the time of Akaali Nihang Baba Giaan Singh Ji.


Oh yes? That's interesting but tell us who told you this, and who told them etc. It's just hearsay until we see some proof or can establish the facts with reference to some evidence.

Let's go back to the beginning. You provided a link to a site - you said the people behind it don't like Niddar Singh (as if that had anything to do with things) but you endorsed the history it gave. Now that site says Guru Nanak had knowledge of shastarvidiya (which you say refers to a specific martial art but linguists would differ with you on that) which he passed to Baba Buddha to hold in a sort of trust until the 6th Guru came about. Surely you must see that is pure ideological patchwork depending heavily on religious belief, and not history. How old would Baba Buddha had to have been, to teach what he had allegedly been taught by the 1st Guru, to the 6th Guru? 150 years or something?

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## MumtazB

I seem to recall Niddar Singh making a public apology for many mistakes in his book which enraged many mainstream sikhs...

Nang Niddar Singh Apology - Hazoor Sahib 2008

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xvqfhkWEy4

I am punjabi, therefore I understood the conversation in the video. At one point somebody asks him directly to explain certain things from his book, and he keeps silent. Also, his posture and constant fidgeting do not indicate the warrior spirit that the Shaster Vidya website keeps referring to. Why didnt he issue a hadh torrh challenge there and then to those who were challenging his book. 

Also saw another video of his book launch in UK...where he tries to justify why he had to make that public apology....and implies that he was forced to make that apology against his will. 

Also, the website refers to bone-breaking encounters between Sikh Warriors and muslim "kalipa", which refers to the leader of muslims. There can only ever be one khaliph of the entire muslim world at any one time.
I do not recall any encounters whatsoever between a muslim khaliph and a sikh warrior. Maybe your understanding of a khaliph is different from mine?  Please clarify ....

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## harvinder singh

typical very typical,

have you read the book? do you know why that happened? i dont think so, they wernt happy about the chapter on the destruction of heritage and how some say baba kulwant singh lacks bir ras.
many mistakes in the book? ok mr historian you tell me what mistakes that the committe took down ramgarhia bunga ??? they kicked people out of their houses which were built by the puratan singhs to build hotels for the 300 smagham????? 

why didnt he issue a hath thoor challenge ? are you mad, look at the size of those guys do you actually think they would stand a chance against niddar singh? is niddar stupid enough to make a scene at THE biggest event for a sikh in this century? no use your brain

explain certain things from the book???? no they asked him what rumors they have heard about him.
I know 3 people who were in that room the issue was about the quotation not about what ever vichaar person opinions ok, I think khalistan is bullshit 90% of sikhs are fudus thats my opinion!!! everyone is entitled to their opinion you dont like it tuff.

well Akali Nihang Santa Singh did have encounters with muslim warriors, if you dont want to believe it dont, speak to the nihangs close to baba santa singh about it.

nav you clearly dont want to believe anything your hatred is soo strong you dont want to believe anything chall it happens, I dont have anything else to say.




> I seem to recall Niddar Singh making a public apology for many mistakes in his book which enraged many mainstream sikhs...
> 
> Nang Niddar Singh Apology - Hazoor Sahib 2008
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xvqfhkWEy4
> 
> I am punjabi, therefore I understood the conversation in the video. At one point somebody asks him directly to explain certain things from his book, and he keeps silent. Also, his posture and constant fidgeting do not indicate the warrior spirit that the Shaster Vidya website keeps referring to. Why didnt he issue a hadh torrh challenge there and then to those who were challenging his book. 
> 
> Also saw another video of his book launch in UK...where he tries to justify why he had to make that public apology....and implies that he was forced to make that apology against his will. 
> ...

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## harvinder singh

> How old would Baba Buddha had to have been, to teach what he had allegedly been taught by the 1st Guru, to the 6th Guru? 150 years or something?




wait a second, so you dont believe baba budha ji anointed guru nanak to guru hargobind ??????? because you saying how old must he have been allegedly to me seems like you even doubt he did raj tilak to the gurus!!!!! nice

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## S.Hazel

Here is a clip similar to something I saw on TV a short while ago

http://thepanthicotpreka.blogspot.co...tej-singh.html

On the site, it says -
_Uptej Singh (Probably the best if not one of the best gatka/shastar vidya artist in the world_

Is there any others claiming this title?
I have no opinion on this subject either way, just a curious observer.

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## harvinder singh

> Here is a clip similar to something I saw on TV a short while ago
> 
> http://thepanthicotpreka.blogspot.co...tej-singh.html
> 
> On the site, it says -
> _Uptej Singh (Probably the best if not one of the best gatka/shastar vidya artist in the world_
> 
> Is there any others claiming this title?
> I have no opinion on this subject either way, just a curious observer.


unsure whether cutting bananas and water melons is classed as a martial art  :Wink: 

ਅੰਤਰ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਤੁਮ ਹੀ ਜਾਨੀ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਪਾਹਿ ਨਿਬੇਰੋ ॥
Anṯar kī gaṯ ṯum hī jānī ṯujẖ hī pāhi nibero.
Only You know the state of my innermost self; You alone can judge me.


anyway to nav giving opinions on the effectiveness of yudh vidya you have never seen you cannot comment on the vidiya, maybe you have a personal agenda against niddar which I think you do hence these bombardment of these questions about the linage if you want to SEE the proof go to one of the akaras and ask him yourself.


anyway enough is enough, we have argued said things etc and we have said some things which shouldnt have been said, katt o katt you think the vidiya is false teek whereas I dont. we shall end on that?

one more thing there is a dal panth amrit sanchar on sunday in coventry guru hargobind gurdwara, 3 well known akali nihangs will be there''akali nihang tirlok singh'' tarna dal will be heading the sanchar maybe speak to him if you think the vidiya linage from guru nanak to baba buddha then to guru hargobind is false say it to him and see what he shal say.

I will leave you with one line which I love....

ਹਾਥੀ ਕੀ ਪੁਕਾਰ ਪਲ ਪਾਛੈ ਪਹੁੰਚਤ ਤਾਹਿ ਚੀਟੀ ਕੀ ਚਿੰਘਾਰ ਪਹਿਲੇ ਹੀ ਸੁਨੀਅਤੁ ਹੈਂ ॥੪॥੨੫੬॥

fateh
 akaal sat sri akaaaal!

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## MumtazB

.............

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## Alex S.

Hello Harvinder Singh,

maybe you or someone else can help me and tell me in which martial magazine this interview was published (name, year, issue, page)? I need the details to do research for an assignment. Thank you! 

Best regards from Germany

Alex





> a few years back on a martial arts magazine 
> 
> Shastarvidiya - Indian Martial Arts by Krishan Godhania
> 
> As a native of India, I have always had an interest in the vast array of traditional Indian Martial Arts. Locating such martial arts is difficult; teachers in India are highly secretive by nature. This is due to the deadly nature of these battlefield arts; the treasured knowledge is passed only to a select few. Nidar Singh - who has been practising the art of Shastarvidiya for over two decades and is perhaps the senior gutu of this particular art in the UK - shares the background and development of this ancient martial art.
> 
> Krishna Godhania: What is Shastarvidiya?
> 
> Nidar Singh: Shastar literally means weapons, Vidiya means knowledge. Shaster Vidiya is the name of traditional Indian martial arts of Northern India.
> ...

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