# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  Bring out the brutes!

## Mark Cain

When it comes to swords, there seem to be very few that don't have some kind of aesthetic embellishment -- blade etching, elaborate hilts, or unique grip materials -- incorporated into their design. However, there are some examples in which function triumphed over form.

Here's one of my favorite brutes: the m1858 Austrian heavy cavalry trooper's sabre. Long (43 inches overall), heavy and a bit on the plain side, it has a certain functional beauty that I enjoy. It's a rare bird because it was replaced by another pattern in 1861, just a few years after its introduction. This example was made by Schnitzler and Kirschbaum sometime between 1858 and 1865. The scabbard was made by A & E Holler.

What "brutish" swords -- basic, purposeful, and largely unadorned -- do you have in your collections?

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## Will Mathieson

The grip is a brute! 5 3/4"

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## Will Mathieson

More to basics, both long & heavy!

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## Glen C.

A similar brutish 1854 in horn



Then there are the complimentary sabres of that ilk


A petite sharp brute of an eagle


Then a Wundes wonder, bigger than it looks


Cheers

Hotspur; _Can spadroons be brutish? I've a few plain examples of those._

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## Peter Walker

Mark

Was this thread prompted by my 1796HC's are brutish comment?
I'm surprised no 1796HC's have been offered !!!

....but what about the lowly sabre briquet ? you can't get much simpler than that ...only 2 pieces of metal ! 

Although no match for a full sized battle sword in a stand up fight ....
...surely a brute in a small package ?

(and handy for chopping firewood !!)

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## Mark Cain

Yes, Peter, it was your quip about the brutish p1796 that started me thinking about swords that some might consider "unlovely." That, and the fact that I was sending some photos -- my Austrian m1858 among them -- to Mark Cloke for his gallery pages on Oldswords.com.

Sabre briquets would seem to qualify, as does this British p1859 Mk II cutlass bayonet -- it's all work and no play. Another unashamed brute (tho' I'd bet the poor swabbie that had to wield it on the end of a naval Enfield had some other choice names for it.  :Big Grin: )

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## Will Mathieson

This heavy blade should qualify

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## Will Mathieson

Ok, you asked for it, 1796 HC

and, though I no longer have this one below...

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## Matt Easton

Swords for Indian cavalry, circa 1890-1914:





Matt

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## Peter Walker

> Yes, Peter, it was your quip about the brutish p1796 that started me thinking about swords that some might consider "unlovely." That, and the fact that I was sending some photos -- my Austrian m1858 among them -- to Mark Cloke for his gallery pages on Oldswords.com.
> 
> Sabre briquets would seem to qualify, as does this British p1859 Mk II cutlass bayonet -- it's all work and no play. Another unashamed brute (tho' I'd bet the poor swabbie that had to wield it on the end of a naval Enfield had some other choice names for it. )


Mark,

I feel quite chuffed as being the source for inspiration !

Although I've posted this before...here's a little limerick you could 
have written in fancy script and framed next to you cutlass/bayonet on the wall in your den....    

'..There was an young sailor named Bates,
who danced the 'fandango' on skates,
a fall on his cutlass...rendered him nutless 
and practically useless on dates..' 

Pretty classey eh !

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## Peter Walker

Thanks Will !!!

(although the hilt is maybe a bit too pretty !)

Matt,

I'll pay those too, the Indian Regiments did have good taste 
with those 'old school' curved blades !

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## David Critchley

Move aside lightweights :Big Grin:

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## David gray

This is unadorned heavy Portugeese Cavalry sword the only lettering being the AE for Arsenal Do Exercito (army arsenal of Portugal) which is on the base of the scabard and quillion, there is also a 6,2 and 20 probably componant numbers. The blade is 34inches and unmarked the grip with 3 bar guard is 6in the grip itself is 4.5in total length of 41 inches sheathed. This is a varient of the British 1821 likely made around 1860.

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## Will Mathieson

Is David playing fair with that basket hilt? I know, anything goes!! Where I am, we don't see those.

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## Mark Cain

Well, Will, the hilt on David's broadsword isn't very brutish, but the blade more than qualifies (David, just how wide is that monster at the ricasso?). The same could be said for your p1796 HC -- arty hilt on a nasty blade.

These are all wonderful, but where are the really ugly ducklings?

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## David Critchley

> Well, Will, the hilt on David's broadsword isn't very brutish, but the blade more than qualifies (David, just how wide is that monster at the ricasso?).


A full two inches wide.

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## Mark McMorrow

...this just wouldn't be a _brute_ thread without an appearance by this cutter!

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## WBranner

I don't know about all of you, but when I think of brutish, I look at the total package. I'd rule out all the three bar hilts, anything French and baskethilts (although a cruciform would qualify nicely). Here are a couple with nothing to recommend them except a handle, minimal hand protection and a nice wide blade.





BTW David, I really want one of those!

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## J.G. Hopkins

I sold this one a few years ago, but I think it qualifies as a brute (a beast, really).  I believe it is know as an Italian M1860 cavalry trooper's sword.  This example was made by Schnitzler & Kirschbaum.  I would love to get one again.  It is one of my favorite non-British models.

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## Will Mathieson

How could I forget!!

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## Matt Easton

> I sold this one a few years ago, but I think it qualifies as a brute (a beast, really).  I believe it is know as an Italian M1860 cavalry trooper's sword.  This example was made by Schnitzler & Kirschbaum.  I would love to get one again.  It is one of my favorite non-British models.


Yes I have one of these and it is a beast.  It makes my British P1885 and P1899 feel small and weak.

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## Rob O'Reilly

Jonathan,

You beat me to the punch with the Italian 1860..it is nasty.

As such, let me present the French Model 1833 Naval Cutlass and a British 1780 Light Cavalry sword.

Rob

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## J.G. Hopkins

Nice, Rob!  I like the French cutlass.  Last year (or was it the year before?)  at the Hartford Show there was an Italian cutlass that was based on the French model.  It was a monster!

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## Thomas Fritz Zehe

This is my favorite. Made of steel, wood and leather, bombastic mass and a very unconventional hilt-form. A Wuerttembergian cavalry saber M1817.

Thomas

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## A.Ducote

My vote is for the British 1796 hc.  No finesse there.

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## Matt Easton

Actually I would put they 1811 Blucher above the British 1796LC, as it's a fatter and slightly heavier version!  I would post a photo of my Blucher, but I just realised that I don't have a good photo of it..

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## Thomas Fritz Zehe

> I would post a photo of my Blucher, but I just realised that I don't have a good photo of it..


Hi Matt, I would like help you.  :Wink:

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## dominic grant

Ahh you poor misguided collectors

Now this IS a beast  ( I put a normal spoon next to it so you can gauge its size! )

A very heavy brute

I will let you try to guess what it is

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## Will Mathieson

Can anyone come up with a larger sword? Less feet!

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## dominic grant

Ill go swap my spoon for one the same size as yours

from the looks of it i have about 2cm on you

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## Will Mathieson

I can make the sword look even larger! Maybe an old yardstick would do, I haven't found a small scale one as of yet! 
I will try to discover just what your sword is, I'm guessing Prussian or another German state, though there are many other countries with similar patterns. Looks like a good early piece!

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## Mark Cain

Are spoons a standard of measurement where you guys live?  :Confused: 

 :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Thomas Fritz Zehe

> I will try to discover just what your sword is, I'm guessing Prussian or another German state, though there are many other countries with similar patterns.


Dominics "Now this IS a beast"-Sword? It's a Saxonia Cavalry sword 1829 I think.

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## dominic grant

> Dominics "Now this IS a beast"-Sword? It's a Saxonia Cavalry sword 1829 I think.



 :Big Grin:   Yes

Its actually one of the first ever swords I bought for myself. I like its sheer brutality and non fancyness, it does not try to be something it is not

it does what it says on the tin, sheer brutality and a good workmans tool

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## Will Mathieson

Since we are dealing with military swords, I thought it only fair to use military spoons, note the crown over GR on the spoon!

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## Dmitry Z~G

> I will let you try to guess what it is


Looks Danish, 1820s or so.

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## Dmitry Z~G

How's this?

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## Will Mathieson

Looks like an executioners spoon!

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## Will Mathieson

Danish LC 1839?

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## David Critchley

> I will let you try to guess what it is


Arthur Price - bead pattern if I'm not mistaken Dom.

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## dominic grant

> Looks Danish, 1820s or so.


Thomas was right

Saxon state Cavalry sword 1829

very similar to the Bavarian one

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## Cathey Brimage

Hi Guys

How about including measurements  Widest Blade in my collection

BASKET HILT
Date	Circa 1745 (18th Century)
Nationality	English
Over Length	Overall 107 cm
Blade length	blade 90 cm
Blade widest point	width 4.8 cm

BASKET HILT Irish Dragoons Broadsword circa 1745 this variation often called the Irish Hilt because of use by some British Regiments in the Irish Establishment in particular the 6th Inniskilling.  It has a three-quarter basket hilt comprised of broad vertical bars joined by a middle horizontal strap.  Broadsword, early double-edged blade bears two central fullers & crescent engraving.


Cheers Cathey

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## niall dignan

> Hi Guys
> 
> How about including measurements  Widest Blade in my collection
> 
> BASKET HILT
> Date	Circa 1745 (18th Century)
> Nationality	English
> Over Length	Overall 107 cm
> Blade length	blade 90 cm
> ...



Beautiful sword,Cathey.  Seems to be suffering from a crisis of identity though :Confused:   Or else it has dual nationality.

Still,has to be a contender,thanks for posting it.

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## Ivan B.

> Ahh you poor misguided collectors
> 
> Now this IS a beast  ( I put a normal spoon next to it so you can gauge its size! )
> 
> A very heavy brute
> 
> I will let you try to guess what it is


This is Saxonian p/1829 light cavalry trooper's sword. It was a prototype for the Danish p/1839 cavalry troopers sword.

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## Ivan B.

Which one would you prefer:

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## Ivan B.

My favorite is the one from the left, Swedish p/1807 light cavalry sword. British m/1796 looks like a baby compared to this one

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## Cathey Brimage

Will

How do you post your pictures so large, mine always come out small and have to be clicked on to enlarge.

Cheers Cathey

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## Mark Cain

Cathey:

It's a by-product of the Coriolis effect. The SFI site is hosted north of the equator and you are posting from south of the equator. Sorry, but you and Rex will have to liquidate your collection -- I can help you with that -- and move north before you can post large images here.

Geophysics suck.

 :Big Grin:

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## Cathey Brimage

Hi Mark

In Rex’s words “A Pox on North of the equator”.  A kind offer to assist with liquidating our collection but then we would have too many walls to paint.  Our theory is the more we have on the wall the less we have to paint.

PS how do you really put big pictures up, we are getting an inferiority complex.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

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## Mark Cain

If you start with a high resolution image and reduce it to screen resolution (72 dpi), you'll be able to preserve the dimensional size, assuming you can manipulate the image using PhotoShop or some other image editor. 

Or you could just upload a large, high res image and let SFI's new, improved attachment manager reduce it for you. It takes a while, but it will knock the resolution down without reducing the size of the canvas.

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## J.G. Hopkins

Cathey,
Will uses photobucket.com and posts images using image tags like this: [img]image url[/img].

Jonathan

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## Will Mathieson

I transfer my photos to photobucket then use the IMG address and copy it to the forums reply as if I posted a picture here. Find the bathroom door opening in one of the pictures. The anvils would be good for making a sword??
I did find two bayonets and a Scottish WW1 scabbard, How??

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## Rob O'Reilly

Will,

I picked this particular location over about 10 years ago.  I go back at least once a year.  Found a decent 1853 and a Brown Bess in the bathroom behind the door, in the very umbrella stand you showed in your second picture!

Great place if you have the patience.

Rob

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## Will Mathieson

Since everything gets piled on top, I wonder how much good old stuff is buried deep. I did not risk opening any cabinet doors for fear of a avalanche.
I did not risk the bathroom, so thats where they hide them!

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## morgan butler

I found this thread and though it's old it resonates with my recent interest in Austrian Heavy Cavalry swords. My picture however is of my British Cav Brute. 1770's....

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## M Forde

Here's my offering: inelegant, slightly wobbly fuller and heavier than it looks. The hilt's that of an Italian M1860 but who knows what the blade is from.

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## Michael.H

These are my two brutes a 1796 Light Cavalry Officers fighting sword with really wide blade and a French Model ANXI sabre.

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## morgan butler

I saw your post on this earlier Mr. Ford, such a great looking/interesting sword!
Michael, those two swords make a splendid pair. And both with scabbards no less!
I have one more "Brute" to post, but it will have to wait for a decent camera. It's another 1770's sword. Like Mr. Ford's "Italian Cutlass" it's far heavier than it looks. The POB is 8 inches from the hilt.

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## Eric Fairbanks

I do really enjoy the Italian m1840 steel hilt S&Ks  and tas a matter of fact any S&K.They are brutes, but I would not want to over look the Starr m1812/13 as they are pretty close to Americas second American made contract sword. Depending on if you count Starr m1810 or the Rose m1812 before them. This one I picked up on the usual site and is not a contract sword as it is unmarked but in detail and style it very much is a CW stamped Starr, exactly like the first 1000 and a true brute. Most I handle are still sharp and a suprising number of the Starr m1812/13s survive in fair shape for swords of many wars. A very durable,  plain jane and well built sword. Eric

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## M Forde

Thank you, Morgan - it certainly is. I just wish I could identify it and so value it. I know this is a sword-centric forum but perhaps I'll be forgiven for posting a bayonet. This is my M1914 Swiss Pioneer and, as bayonets go, it's quite a brute with its saw teeth, length and swell-point.

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## DanR

Gentlemen,
Here is my French cuirassier An XIII saber.
Found under a heavy coat of varnish, old style fashion to protect a sword.
A pain to clean but the result is astounding.
Dan

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## Rob O'Reilly

Since this thread first came out I've picked up my all-time brute, easily beating out the 1796 HC, 1811 Blucher and my Italian 1860.  Actual origin is still unknown, but my 1796 LC has an inferiority complex when next to it.

Although not easy to see differences between them, the brute weighs in a 1.22kg vs. the 1796 at .970kg.  With scabbard the brute is 2.19kg vs. the 1796 coming in at 1.6kg.  The 1796 scabbard was also one of my heavier ones, being a rounded Osbourne.  Lastly the blade width of this cleaver is 1 3/4" at the hilt, flaring to near 1 7/8" near tip.

Rob

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## morgan butler

Wow! Very interesting hilt.....What is the grip made of?

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## Rob O'Reilly

It's leather wrapped wood.

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## Juan J. Perez

My own beast: a Spanish M1815 LC sabre. A very stout, menacing looking weapon, 1,3 Kg of steel and brass... the heaviest "light" I've ever had in hand...



Remember, what is light is the Cavalry, not always their swords!

JJ

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## Eric Fairbanks

Juan, what years would these have seen service? She is a beaut. Eric

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## Juan J. Perez

Roughly 1815-1840, when it was replaced by the 1840 pattern. Maybe a bit more, depending on the regiment. This pattern saw heavy service in the first Carlist War (a succession civil war) and other internal revolts. Almost all the troopers' examples I've seen have signs of real use. This one has.

Best,
Juan J.

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## Javier Ramos

Once a year I post this thing to see if somebody has info about it. its "brutishness" is a good excuse to bring it to this thread.

I think it is a Swedish cavalry sword from about 1630s; the quillons are typical. But I never got confirmation of that. It is 114cm long, 93cm of blade, and weights 1425 gr.. The grip is made for a gauntlet and it has a thumb ring (too large for a naked hand). In spite of its size and weight handles nicely. No marks. Wood grip has imprinted missing wire marks.

Attachment 134716
Attachment 134717
Attachment 134718
Attachment 134721
Attachment 134719
Attachment 134720

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## Jerry Cottrell

Namely my P1804 cutlass and the French 'Sabre de Bord' M An IX. Definitely unadorned...

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## Will Mathieson

Always thought this had a wicked blade and tough hilt.

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## Glen C.

My slotted hilt has a knuckle duster/brutish quality.

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## morgan butler

This Brit Infantry Officer sword is quite larger than the usual pattern. It has  31 inches long double edged blade that's 1.25 at the forte, and the hilt construction is of a larger scale than other examples. You'll notice that it has a big, featureless rear quillion that won't snap off like the normal slender, fluted ones that often are missing on these types. Very large pommel as well, 4 inches around. This sword would be able to stand up to heavier cavalry weapons. It's heavy duty and beautiful. Built for battle among line troops, it's a brute.

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