# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  US Model 1902 unusual variations

## T. Graham

I hope this is the first of many contributions.
A few years ago I picked this M02 variation up at the Mansfield (Ohio) Civil War Show. This event is usually held on the first weekend in May. It is a must for anyone who has an interest in US militaria.
Made in (I think) Germany for Ridabock, New York (1888-1966). The blade has the Celtic interlace etching found on M02s marked Ridabock (and others) France. The scabbard has brass mountings (and blade etching) like those on a type 3 US M1872 Artillery Officers saber marked Shannon, Miller & Crane, New York (1867-1896) in my collection.
Is this another example of using up left over parts?
Does anyone want to see M02 lodge swords? The are several in The American Fraternal Sword book and I have some in my collection.

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## George Wheeler

Tim,

Certainly a good idea for a new thread.  Yes, I would like to see some of the fraternal sword variations of the M1902.  I remember seeing a M1902 with the blade etched to an automobile salesman on ebay a couple of years ago.  I guess he got it for waging war on the salesmen of the competition or some such thing.  So, anything is possible.

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## T. Graham

This is a "budget" M1902 was made by M.C.Lilley. It has the solid brass grip and (drum roll please) a M1852 Civil War era U. S. Navy blade. It has been ground down to fit the scabbard. Possibly made for a naval cadet program. I have another example of a navel cadet M1902 (sort of) sword. I am half temped to dismount the blade and see where it was made. I bet there is a Weyersberg king's head under there.
This is another example of ACW USN and USMC blades mounted in the 20th Century by Lilley.

Do our brothers across the pond have examples of older unused blades being mounted 50-60 years later on completely inappropriate swords?

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## George Wheeler

Tim,

Your composite M1902 Army Officer and M1872 Cavalry Officer Saber is certainly an unusual variation.  Verrry interrresting...  as Pat Paulson use to say.

Here is another interesting one along this vein.  It is an absolutly standard M1872 Cavalry Officer Saber that has been seemingly modified to meet the general requirements of the M1902 Saber for all Army Officers.  This one has an 1872 bright nickel plated regulation steel scabbard but the gilt brass fittings have been nickel plated as well.  The gilt brass 1872 regulation hilt has also been dull nickel plated in the same manner as the scabbard fittings.  The normal regulation shagreen covered grip on this sword has instead a black leather wrap.  It seems this particular sword was an attempt to make this sword look more like the new M1902 Army Officer Saber.  Not really a composite variation like yours but a look-alike.

Perhaps done to sell as a society sword or perhaps to sell to a mounted officer who wished to retain his old style sword by bringing it more into compliance with the new 1902 regulations?

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## George Wheeler

One more variation of the M1902 in the form of a fancy presentation.  This sword has heavily decorated fittings and the guard is very similar to the M1872 Mounted Officer Saber as shown above.  In fact, the guard has the same motifs as the M1872 but it has one more branch than the regulation M1872 does.  At any rate, the similarities are clear.

George

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## T. Graham

Hello George, I think it is just a nickel plated M1872. I have an even fancier one.

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## George Wheeler

> Hello George, I think it is just a nickel plated M1872. I have an even fancier one.


I agree that this is very probable.  Really more of an unusual variation of the M1872 that just looks (kinda sorta) like the general M1902 description/regulations.

OK then, here is an unusual composite of the M1902 and the M1872 Artillery Officer Saber for your thread.  The P guard of the M1872 has been added to the brass hilt of the M1902.  The scabbard uses a frog and the blade is plain and unetched.  These have been discussed before and all of these that I have seen have been items of issue with rack numbers on the top of the guard.  My best guess is that these were used by some military academy or school.  Any thoughts on who might have assembled these?

George

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## T. Graham

Here is my example with a 1907 dated frog which has to predate the saber. What else, could this frog have been used with?
I am sure they were made by M.C. Lilley Co., but I can only guess they were made in the 20's. This one also has a rack number.  The shape of the grip and the cadet type frog hook are like Lilley's.
They are not common, but a fanatic 02 collector should be able to get one.

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## Sean Scott

nvm

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## T. Graham

Ok, what is is nvm?

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## Sean Scott

nvm = never mind.

I thought I had something to add, but then realized I didn't, and there's no way to delete a post.

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## George Wheeler

Tim,

M.C.Lilley Co. sounds right to me on the 1902 "Artillery" Sabers.  

As to the 1907 arsenal made frog, I think the US Arsenals made these for some extended period of time.  My best guess is that this frog was not made for this particular sword but I suppose it certainly could have been used with it.  I have an undated one of these frogs that is black.  I would think the arsenal made frogs would have been used with either the 1840 NCO sword, the 1840 Musician sword, or the 1872 style Staff Sergeant swords well post CW.

Here are some pix of a couple of my US Arsenal made frogs.

George

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## T. Graham

That makes sense. But were the M60 type NCO swords regulation in the US Army? Was Rock Island providing leather items to National Guard and Militia units? Has anyone seen a post 1902 photo of a regular Army NCO or musician with a sword? This frog would work with the M1902 field leather belt. The M1840 NCO sword would be rather uncomfortable to wear vertically. The traditional baldric carries it an a angle. The Horstmann version of the M1840 has an angled down counter guard so it can be worn vertically.

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## George Wheeler

OK, here is another unusual variation of the Model 1902 Officer Sabre.  This one is the M1902 worn by Philippine Army Officers during the roughly ten year time frame (that includes WWII) that the Philippines were a US Commonwealth.  It seems that the Philippine Army still wears a variation of this sword but it is a bit different and fairly crude in appearance and finish.

Notice the Philippines Commonwealth seal and the US flag incorporated into the blade etching template.  A sword from the US Colonial period just prior to WWII.

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## T. Graham

Hello George, Does the above Philippine saber have a ridge on the knuckle guard and is Germany marked on it? The etching pattern is in the Eickhorn style.
The German made Philippine Constabulary sabers are not Marked Germany. I think the US tariff laws did not apply to the Philippines.
The attached photos are for a rather crude but somewhat gaudy, locally made 02, for a private, I think, military school.
Does it ring a school bell with anyone?

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## George Wheeler

[QUOTE=T. Graham;1163467]Hello George, Does the above Philippine saber have a ridge on the knuckle guard and is Germany marked on it? The etching pattern is in the Eickhorn style.
The German made Philippine Constabulary sabers are not Marked Germany. I think the US tariff laws did not apply to the Philippines.QUOTE]

The Philippine Army saber does have a ridge on the knuckle guard.  It is not "Germany" marked but it is surely a German made sword.  The only marking is the depressed "Proof" disc that says "Proved" with an "H" in the center.  I wondered if that might be a Holler or Horster mark but the etching style is very Eickhorn-like.  I think you are correct that the US tariff and import laws did not apply to the Philippines.  

The blade is nicely engraved with the officer's name but I have had no luck identifying him as it seems to be a common Filipino name.

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## T. Graham

The knuckle guard ridge indicates a pre WWII saber. 

This unusual 02 was made for the Catholic benevolent order of Modern Woodmen of America. The blade is marked Germany on the tang.
The details tell men this sword was made by M.C. Lilley or Lilley-Ames. I think Lilley continued to used the Ames name after the merger.

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## Sean Scott

> The attached photos are for a rather crude but somewhat gaudy, locally made 02, for a private, I think, military school.
> Does it ring a school bell with anyone?


Pontifical and Royal University of Santo Tomas, The Catholic University of the Philippines.

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## T. Graham

Thanks for the info. This University must have an ROTC program.

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## T. Graham

I can only assume that this unmarked, 7/8 scale saber was made for a military school. The grip is horn. It is likely pre WWI. I could take a photo with a standard 02 next to it.
Does anyone have any thoughts about it.

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## Sean Scott

> Thanks for the info. This University must have an ROTC program.


They do.

And they wear bearskin hats, which I would think would be rather hot in Manila...

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## T. Graham

> They do.
> 
> And they wear bearskin hats, which I would think would be rather hot in Manila...


 I am a member of the Cleveland Grays. I have a French style bearskin Shako which I used to wear on parade. The bear skin is over a wicker frame and are light weight. The large interior space does not get hot. These were made in France in the 1890's. The bear skin is from Russia. They all had a metal carrying can. The British bearskin has a different shape.

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## George Wheeler

> I can only assume that this unmarked, 7/8 scale saber was made for a military school. The grip is horn. It is likely pre WWI. I could take a photo with a standard 02 next to it.
> Does anyone have any thoughts about it.


I would agree that your 7/8 scale sword is a cadet sword for a military school as you suggest.  I know that Bannerman sold these little guys in the form of Cavalry sabres in about this scale.

Here is another smaller M1902 Officer Sabre that is 27" overall with the scabbard.  I think this size of sword would be considered a Kindersabel (child's sword) because of the size and construction.  The mild steel blade is blunt and has no edge or fuller so the little soldier would not put his eye out as his mother feared.  The hilt construction is a one-piece casting with black painted grips and the guard only has three bars but it is clearly a rendition of the M1902 for the kiddies.

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## Bill Goodwin

not sure how odd this one is in the scheme of the one's already posted, but it's the oddest one in my collection.

Brass guard and scabbard fittings,leather covered grip and straight,un-marked blade.

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## T. Graham

I think, the above 02 type is another attempt by Lilley-Ames to create an inexpensive sword for naval cadets. 
The swords below were made by Eickhorn. Valley Forge Military Academy and Pennsylvania Military Collage converted the traditional cadet sword carried by NCOs into an officers version, by replacing the hilt. This was very easy to do and it saved the parents the expense of a new sword. As far as I know, this was unique to these schools.

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## George Wheeler

Tim,

Here is some information that I just received from a Valley Forge Military Academy collector about these particular straight bladed Valley Forge swords with white grips.

_"This sword was used by the regimental commander and was a gift to him from the cadets, only one per year was made, so it is really rare. The Drum Major or the color guard would have the use of one if the uniform of the day required it, but that belonged to the school not to the cadet. This was stopped before the war in the late 30's.

This item, I would think would have great value to a collector of Valley Forge item's like my self. 
I can not say for sure but my guess is that it's at least 80 years old.

All other sabers from Valley Forge have the black Grips."_

This note was concerning one of these swords that I have that has white shark skin grips specifically.  I would think that your white plastic grip would have the same meaning.  

Below are pix of my example by American Military Supply Corporation.

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## T. Graham

> Tim,
> 
> Here is some information that I just received from a Valley Forge Military Academy collector about these particular straight bladed Valley Forge swords with white grips.
> 
> _"This sword was used by the regimental commander and was a gift to him from the cadets, only one per year was made, so it is really rare. The Drum Major or the color guard would have the use of one if the uniform of the day required it, but that belonged to the school not to the cadet. This was stopped before the war in the late 30's.
> 
> This item, I would think would have great value to a collector of Valley Forge item's like my self. 
> I can not say for sure but my guess is that it's at least 80 years old.
> 
> ...


George, Now, that is interesting. I am VFMA Class of '66 and I did not notice or (more likely) do not remember, that the First Captain/Regimental Commander carried a white grip saber. I bought this on feeBay and asked the seller where he got it. He would not give his name, but I think he told me he was Class of '65. This fits the age of the saber. I have been looking through yearbooks, but no conformation there. i wonder if Pennsylvania Military Collage used white grip sabers?
I shall continue the investigation. I have yet to find the yearbooks for 63-66. Maybe higher authority knows where they are?

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## George Wheeler

Perhaps you can find a pre-war yearbook that shows it in use?  My source indicates the practice was stopped in the 1930s, so you may not have seen this saber in the 1960s.  Possibly the one you have came out of old dead stock stores and belonged to the school rather than a graduate?

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## T. Graham

This Henderson-Ames made 02 has a solid brass grip, supplied by The M.C. Lilley Co. and a black painted scabbard. This is not paint over nickle plating. The scabbard has a rough finish to hold paint. I would date it before WWI.
This is obviously an inexpensive cadet saber.  The black painted, now worn off, solid nickle plated brass grip is indestructible and has a better balance for saber drill. The throat, ring bands and drag are plated. It has a nice leather scabbard effect. If the scabbard gets scratched, off to building maintenance you go.
I think Texas A&M and St. Johns Military Academy, Delafield, Wisconsin, used these. Now called St. Johns Northwester Military School.
There are three St. Johns. the others are St. Johns Collage, which is Catholic with a senior ROTC program and St. Johns Military School, Salinas, Kansas.

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## T. Graham

Has anyone seen another one like this? The three piece, unplated hilt is brass and has a ridged knuckle guard. The quillion and knuckle guard have solder joints not normally seen on a plated hilt. (If detailed photos are desired; just ask.) The grip is painted hardwood that has an apple type grain. The finger grooves have the correct depth and angles, so I think it is original. Why did the customer, not go with the solid brass grip and strap? It is unmarked. I date it too the mid to late 1930's.
USN officer swords are too expensive for cadet use. The USN scabbard is the most expensive of the components to manufacture.
The blade and scabbard are the standard cadet. Brass bands with suspender rings are mounted on the scabbard with a cadet drag. I have another L-A for Vanguard, naval cadet sword, based on the USMC NCO hilt, with the same type of ring assembly mounted on an leather scabbard that is not steel lined. It survived in unused condition, because the cadets never got a hold of it. (Cadets and a thin leather scabbard! What were they thinking? It has to be a prototype.)
 This poor thing has suffered from many years of cadet use and abuse. It has a screw tang, so I disassembled and pounded the kinks out of the knuckle guard and branches. There is a technique to this, so be care full. You do not want to break off any branches. I replaced the missing internal nut, but that required cleaning up the threads with a 10-32 die. Reshaped the strap because it no longer fits properly on the very beat up wood grip. There can be a lot of subtle adjustment required to reassemble any US made sword. (Do not get me started on Ames' or Lilley's quality control.)
What really sets off this sword is the nautical rope work.

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## George Wheeler

That is the second one of these that I have seen.  Bill's leather gripped version that he posted earlier has got to be from the same "Naval Cadet" genre as yours.  Now we know they were not just a one-off version and that they were used and abused.  

A very neat variation!  I think the trench art rope work is great.

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## T. Graham

> A very neat variation!  I think the trench art rope work is great.


 [/QUOTE]
Hello George, Forgive my need to be "technical", but naval or sailor crafts are called 'scrimshaw' and in this case, the sub category rope/knot work. Trench arts are soldier crafts. Some of the forum members may not know, that both were a method to deal with the idleness and tedium of long sea voyages or waiting in the trenches.

Those of us with Asbergers lite can get a bit literal. Google Asbergers, many of us 'collectors' have it in its 'lite' form. A symptom of it is to go on and on, into the minutia of just about anything. Oops, I think I just made my point several times.

Should we start a naval cadet thread?

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## T. Graham

Has this thread run it course? I have more unusual 02s, if anyone is interested. I can also start a cadet sword thread if there is interest.

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## George Wheeler

I think we can stretch this thread out a bit longer.  If you are talking about cadet swords of the M1902 style, I think they could go here as well since they are certainly identifiable variations on the theme.

Here is one that is a 1938 presentation from the Cadets of the New York School for the Deaf.  This one is interesting because of the blued presentation panel and its identification with the School for the Deaf.  The recipient was a long time school master who retired from the school after the war.

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## T. Graham

This M1902 is to be found on page 107 of The American Fraternal Sword . It was assembled/retailed by Henderson-Ames. URKTMM is the Uniform Ranks Knights Of the Tented Maccabees. Founded in 1881 as a secret beneficiary society.

This 02 was made by H-A. Some moron crudely tried to grind off the H-A mark and the name etched on the blade. There was nothing to be done, but neatly remove the remains of the H-A mark and the name. Then using eight different grits, I was able to polish the blade without removing too much etching. Lodge swords are often renamed, so I know how to do it.  After I pounded out and realigned the knuckle guard and branches,I then brought back the gold and nickle. It looks OK now.
I always polish with paper, because I have more control and wheels will ruin any sharp edges.
Features: grip is cape buffalo horn, the top two scabbard mounts are stampings, but the drag is a sand casting.

It accured to me, that if I was a cadet officer with a saber and I wanted to get the attention of a deaf cadet standing with his back to me, I could... lets not go there.

I have some more and so do the other collectors who read this thread. Post'em.

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## Curwin d

Greetings to all!
     I'm new to collecting swords, 4 of my first purchases were modern Japanese swords and now I own a replica from Windlass of the 1840 Cavalry sword(wrist breaker). I have a couple of questions for you gentleman, with your indulgence, please! Am I to believe that men actually went onto the battlefield with such pitifully incompetent blades as the 1902? I'm an ex-marine and in my mind I would find it very hard to attack an enemy with such a weapon...better a long tree limb cut to my satisfaction! My next question is...what might be the best book to start with, being that my interest is varied with interest in European Napoleonic and American Civil war swords? CW.

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## T. Graham

> Greetings to all!
>      I'm new to collecting swords, 4 of my first purchases were modern Japanese swords and now I own a replica from Windlass of the 1840 Cavalry sword(wrist breaker). I have a couple of questions for you gentleman, with your indulgence, please! Am I to believe that men actually went onto the battlefield with such pitifully incompetent blades as the 1902? I'm an ex-marine and in my mind I would find it very hard to attack an enemy with such a weapon...better a long tree limb cut to my satisfaction! My next question is...what might be the best book to start with, being that my interest is varied with interest in European Napoleonic and American Civil war swords? CW.


Welcome Kerwin, I always give this advice to new sword collectors: STOP now,  put the sword down, turn around and run like the wind. Knowing that you will ignore this good advice, I will answer your questions. Oh, avoid the replicas, they will not hold any value. 
From studies made after the American Civil War (ACW), military leaders realized that edged weapons had little statistical effect to the outcome. The adoption of the Model 1860 Staff, Foot, Field, Infantry (what ever) Officer's Sword set the standard for the M1872 series of artillery and cavalry officer's sabers. They were now a symbol of rank, for ceremonial use and no longer considered weapons. The M1902 carries on this non weapon tradition. The M1852 Navy Officers sword went the same way. The earliest M1902's were considerably more robust than the flimsies on the market today. The USMC NCO swords are still weapon like, because there was a surplus of blades left over from the ACW that were being mounted into the 1920's. The tradition of slimming down USMC swords did not start until recently, with the Spanish and later, Asian imports. The German made USMC's are still reasonably substantial. If you compare a pre WWI M1902 with a post WWII, the difference will be obvious. A very good pre WWI M1902 can be bought for less than a new, currently made one. You can also accumulate/collect 150 M1902's and have no two alike in the details. "Quantity has a quality all of it's own." (Joseph Stalin) Do not tell my wife, but I have done this. I am a sick puppy.

Books: for US military swords, the current edition of The American Sword by Peterson. There has been considerably more scholarship on the topic since 1954, but it is primer. There is a thread on books 
Do not waste your money on junque. This forum can help your collecting decisions.

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## Sean Scott

> The M1902 carries on this non weapon tradition.


The M1902 was certainly designed as a weapon to be used, as described in the letter from Allien to the 1905 board that designed the M1905/06 experimentals.  It's efficacy as an edged weapon is borne out when you consider that the M1905/06 was created in response to President Roosevelt's demand for a saber "they can fight with", and that the M1902 blade was recognized as satisfactory for that purpose and used in the experimental design.

I would also call attention to the actions of LTC Ace Cozzolio in Vietnam, who always carried and apparently scored at least one kill with his M1902.

But, as you note, while the early M1902s may be usable in a fight, the later and modern versions are nothing more than flashy male jewelry.

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## Curwin d

Greeting all!
       Thanks for the responce gentleman! I appreciate the advice Mr. Graham.....alas it is too late! I have the fever! Having only two examples in my life with which to compare it...I equate it with reaching puberty and falling in love for the first time. Man, I have for the last 4 months been scouring Ebay, Google, Amazon and I don't know how many antiques dealers, and I don't feel an end to it coming anytime soon. I do own a 1902 model with the depressed "proved" button within the Damascas Star, and a simular Italian cavalry sword about 3.5 inches longer, neither of which would I ever contemplate entering a battle with. I agree about the replica's but I enjoy putting a cutting edge on them and joining the great water bottle wars. However, I have trimmed some limbs from my trees for the winter and having struck one about 2.5 inches thick I seem to have hit it wrong...my first experience with pain from the non pointy end. Quite a little sting!  I've tried cardboard boxes but they dull a blade rather quickly. I have a neighbor who is a meat cutter and he showed me how to straighten the cutting edge with a "steel" as he calls it, and not take so much metal from the blade...a nice bit of knowledge to have aquired for a newby. Thank you Mr. Scott for the bit of info on Mr. Cozzolio.....its interesting to know that even at that late date there was a sword on the battlefield...though as you say...with a bit more heft! Thanks for the reference to the books thread. CW.

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## George Wheeler

> This M1902 is to be found on page 107 of The American Fraternal Sword . It was assembled/retailed by Henderson-Ames. URKTMM is the Uniform Ranks Knights Of the Tented Maccabees. Founded in 1881 as a secret beneficiary society.
> 
> This 02 was made by H-A. Some moron crudely tried to grind off the H-A mark and the name etched on the blade. There was nothing to be done, but neatly remove the remains of the H-A mark and the name. Then using eight different grits, I was able to polish the blade without removing too much etching. Lodge swords are often renamed, so I know how to do it.  After I pounded out and realigned the knuckle guard and branches,I then brought back the gold and nickle. It looks OK now.
> I always polish with paper, because I have more control and wheels will ruin any sharp edges.
> Features: grip is cape buffalo horn, the top two scabbard mounts are stampings, but the drag is a sand casting.
> 
> It accured to me, that if I was a cadet officer with a saber and I wanted to get the attention of a deaf cadet standing with his back to me, I could... lets not go there.
> 
> I have some more and so do the other collectors who read this thread. Post'em.


OK... lets go...  Seriously, you did a great job with the restoration of this sword. Casual readers should be careful about sword cleaning and restoration like this however and read the sticky notes on the subject at the top of the forum before attempting same.  Tim, you obviously know what you are doing but overly agressive "restoration" will very often ruin a nice sword.  We have all seen it.

Anyhow... Here is a postwar cadet sword made by Eickhorn for the thread.  This one is from Virginia Polytechnic Institute (VPI) and is named and dated to 1969.  While the exterior of the sword is entirely M1902 regulation, the blade is unique to VPI.  Not only is it Eickhorn marked but marked by Meyer in New York as distributor as well.  Another thing to notice about the blade is the dull grey background which really makes the etching stand out.  VPI was founded in 1872 as a land grant college an continues on to this day as Virginia Tech.  I will also point out that the sword knot for this particular sword is properly post-WWII black instead of the pre-war russet color of earlier knots.

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## Simon R.

This one went post auction a little while ago.  Appears to be little above regular quality.

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## George Wheeler

> This one went post auction a little while ago.  Appears to be little above regular quality.


Yes, a little bit above the regular quality 1902 swords indeed.  The last one of these I saw was named as a presentation to a General Officer but the dealer would not sell it.  Why he drug it to the militaria show and it was not for sale is still a mystery to me.  Oh well...  

Along this line... here is a gilt presentation (grade) version from the Governor of Rhode Island to a RI Militia Cavalry Captain for his service in the Mexican Punitive Expedition.  The officer later served overseas in WWI but this sword only just pre-dates US involvement in the "European War".

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## T. Graham

I could have put this in the Cadet sword thread, but I think it belongs here.

At first glance this appears to be just an early M1902, retailed by Wm. Read & Sons, Boston. Personalized for a public high school cadet program.
But look carefully: the hilt is the Ames 'square' type with the heavy branches and the scabbard has the plain throat with one screw. But, it also has Lilley type 1 commercial etching on the blade.

When I mean Lilley type 1 etching, I mean the early etching pattern they used before they started using the 'Springfield' pattern on their own and German (WKC) import M1902's.

What, you thought Springfield made their own M1902's. We will save that for another thread.

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## T. Graham

Because it had a tang screw and needed some touch up, I took it apart. (Not that the lack of a tang screw would stop me.) The tang screw is more typical of Ames and WKC for Lilley Imports.

Lets look at some more details.

There is a part numbers on the back of the horn grip and a matching number on the strap and grip band. Assembly numbers are more typical of Lilley.

The blade and possibly the blank scabbard were imported from Germany. This is also, typically a Lilley feature.

Now this is strange; look at the knuckle guard ridge. It is off center.  I went through my 02 collection, currently about 125 pieces. I found several variations in the small details of all the makers guards, a few of the pre WWII 02's have a thicker guard and branches and lack the ridge, but this is the only off center ridge I can find. Look through your collections; are there any other off center knuckle guard ridges? I even checked my French swords. now if any swords would have an off center ridge it would be on a French sword; but, theirs is on center.

I also have in my collection other Ames 02's for Wm. Read & Sons, Boston. 

To avoid confusion, where possible, there is Jacob Reed & Co., Boston or Jacob Reed & Sons, Philadelphia, both of whom bought Ames 02s. 

Conclusion; Made by Ames with mostly Lilley components. Sword makers are an insestuous lot.

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## Simon R.

Here is another interesting 1902 that popped up on e-bay - #170775681915




"Fear knocked at the door, faith answered, no one was there" - Hinds Head Pub fireplace - Bray, England

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## T. Graham

This feebay 70775681915 is the standard Gerrman made presentation grade 1902. You could get them with minor variations, such as: eye color, grip type, all nickle or all brass or a mix of finishes etc. The one in the feebay listing was made by Eickhorn; they made these into the 1970's at least.

Photos 1 &2 was made by Eickhorn and sold at Culver Military Academy in the mid 1970's.

Photo 3 is by Horster. It has a gold and blue blade.

Photo 4 is also by Horster. Not the 'German' grip.

Photo 5 is marked 'Ames Sword Co' but has the lilley etching pattern, so I think it was made by WKC.
They are not all that rare.

I also have other 'American' style presentation 02's.

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## Sean Scott

> What, you thought Springfield made their own M1902's. We will save that for another thread.


 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):   This I've got to hear....

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## T. Graham

> This I've got to hear....


This 'Springfield' sword topic is the bases for a small book. Consider this; Springfield Armory is not a battlefield, but it seems to taken on the status of 'hallowed ground'.
There was a book out several years ago about Springfield, Harpers Ferry and the US Armory system in general. It was called Misfire by Hallahan. Jobs at a National armory were often  patronage prizes and could be subject to considerable political and military pressure and abuse. They were government facilities, any 'official histories or reports' must be carefully scrutinized. 
Examine the weapons designed and made at Springfield; The M1 is not what John Garand originally designed. A list of poor weapons choices such as the Krag, obsolete and incredibly expensive to make and that abomination called the 'trapdoor' makes you wonder what was going on. Harpers Ferry had that North/Hall breach loader that the soldiers did not want. (It worked better upside down or sideways.) But, do not get me started.
The success of the 'Springfield' non weapon swords is because they were not made by Springfield. I contacted "The Springfield Edge" about this, pointed out some contradictions and never heard back. The data is the swords themselves.  
This topic would require a thread all of its own, but is really too complex for this forum. I will leave you with this hint: 'Gaylord'.
Copyright 2012 Tim Graham all rights.

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## Sean Scott

> The success of the 'Springfield' non weapon swords is because they were not made by Springfield. I contacted "The Springfield Edge" about this, pointed out some contradictions and never heard back. The data is the swords themselves.  
> This topic would require a thread all of its own, but is really too complex for this forum. I will leave you with this hint: 'Gaylord'.
> Copyright 2012 Tim Graham all rights.


The historical record is quite clear through the internal communications of the Armory and the Ordnance Department that Springfield made M1902s through to 1918.  In fact, one series of exchanges shows that the Ordnance Department looked to create contract sources of the M1902 to relieve the Armory of the responsibility, and that all of the major manufacturers contacted professed an inability to provide contract sabers without considerable time to build the capability.

You have a lot of written record to explain away, and it will take more than "it was a government conspiracy" to do that...

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## T. Graham

Tim Graham will be at Maryland Arms Collectors table X26. March 16, 17, & 18. Please stop by and visit. This is the best antique weapons show in the world.

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## T. Graham

A while back on this thread there is some discussion of the "M1902 NCO Artillery Saber". The details seemed to make it a The M.C. Lilley Co. sword. (The 'The' was added to M.C. Lilley Co. in 1877; so its use will help date a Lilley product. Is there another way to handle this grammatically?)

This "artie" has an Ames style grip strap. The sand cast, brass knuckle guard has relief decoration, but the profile is like the Lilley version. The grip is black phenolic plastic that has gone brown. The blade, scabbard and mountings are like some used on the M72 Cavalry and Artillery sabers. I have not seen that drag before. The scabbard bands are located by friction only. There is nothing stamped on the tang. The knuckle guard does not have a tang hole in it, but is 'teed' and held in place by the grip strap pommel. I can post a photo if desired.
This is a unique but budget priced Ames saber, that could be for cadet use.

Actually, the grip and strap are the only '02' features.

I think that the commonly found brown grips were all black originally. It could be a chemical reaction cause by time and storage conditions.
Any thoughts?

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## T. Graham

Most Presentation Grade 02's follow the pattern shown in a previous entry. This Horster example has mountings more commonly found on presentation grade M1872 Cavalry Officers sabers.
The inscription is dated 1932.
It recently came off eBay in neglected condition, but I thought I could bring it back.  There were large spots of heavy tarnish, polish residue and lots of old sticker adhesive, but no damage. Silver plated parts have to be maintained; if it goes black, the value really drops. The blacker it is, the harder it is to remove; especially in all the detail. 
Those black Knights of Pythias swords are silver plated. I will bet the members of the Uniform Ranks cursed the fellow who decided that the swords would be silver.
Of my, German made, presentation 02's, I like this one the best.

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## Greg Day

Hello, all.  This is my first post here.  I recently picked up a beat-up 1902 variant with a bent brass hilt, a dark brown wooden handle and a sadly marred blade with a slight kink in it.  The etchings on the ricasso are difficult to make out but there appears to be a "Nock" and a "NY" on it.  Nock was the founder of Wilkinson sword, correct?   But why would a WSC sword have a "NY" on it?

I'll try to add a couple of photos to this post, but any help identifying it would be appreciated.  I didn't pay much for it, and I'm serious considering sending it off for some restoration work to the guard and blade.  It might not be worth the money but it appeals to me to conserve what I THINK is a pretty old variant of this sword.  No scabbard, unfortunately. 

Thanks for any help on this.

Greg Day

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## Glen C.

Hi Greg

Welcome To Sword Forum International

The Warnock Uniform Co. operated in NYC from about 1897-1915. They were a retailer, not a maker. That would put this sword before WWI. I do not know who the source of their marked swords were.

Wilkinson was an English maker and firm predating the Warnock Co. by many decades.

Cheers

Hotspur; _There were at least a dozen New York City retailers of swords and uniforms/regalia at the turn of the 20th century_

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## T. Graham

Hello Greg, The US on the on the ricasso of this early M1902 is similar to the ones made by Weyersburg, Kirshbaum Cie., Solingen, Germany for other US importers. Look under the leather for 'Germany'. The grip is cape buffalo horn.
 Because of the damage to the blade, I doubt that it can be improved much, but you can practice taking the hilt apart, cleaning and straightening it and putting it back together. Is there an oval shaped piece on the top?
This is not really a variant, as the features are standard for a pre WWI M1902. But, please keep posting.

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## Greg Day

Thanks to you both for the information.  I could only make out the "Nock" on the ricasso and knew that WSC was started by an Edward(?) Nock, so thought maybe there was some relation there.  Cape Buffalo horn?  Really?  That's pretty neat.  Yes, there is an oval piece at the top of the hilt, which probably means it's screwed rather peened but I didn't want to put any torque on it to find out.  I know it's probably not worth it economically but I decided to send it off to that fellow in Windsor, California who does sword restoration work.  I'd just enjoy knowing that I did what I could to conserve so old an example of such a popular model of sword.  The presentation engraving on the blade is to a "C.G. Armstrong," but I checked the USMA rolls and there was no match (I think West Point was using a different model, anyway).  I guess it could have belonged to just about any officer, or a cadet at one of the private military schools.

Any suggestions on where to locate a period scabbard would be appreciated (or even what a period scabbard would look like for this one).

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## T. Graham

This past weekend I attended, as is usual, the great Civil War Show in Mansfield, OH. 
I had a nice chat with Bruce Bazelon and he autographed his Horstmann book.
While wandering aimlessly through the many halls, I stumbled across the strangest 02 I have ever seen.

Features include:
1. The makers mark seems to read "Artillery 'made in' Toledo" (Spain), with crossed cannons under a crown. Can anyone add to this? 
2. The etching looks like that found on tourist swords and lacks the ... well, it lacks everything you would find with 02 etching. It is personalized M.Churchill. I suspect that this was done on the spot, in a Toledo sword shop.
3. The knuckle guard has the ridge which would normally date it before 1950. 
4. The grip not the usual cast or molded plastic, but machined from 'Micarta', a fabric  reinforced phenolic plastic, that has many industrial applications, but really overkill for this grip. Note, the 'grain' effect. Of course it will be very stable and not 'shrink' like some of the plastic grips have.
5. The scabbard is about 2 inches too long for the blade. I think the maker only made one scabbard length and shortened the blades to suit.

I thought it possible, that a tourist bought it as a souvenir, but it was attached, incorrectly, to the chap and chain, so it may have been worn on duty. Was there snickering among the other officers? But there may have been some envy, because  it probably cost a lot less. It had to have been carried into the USA by the buyer to avoid Spain being stamped on the ricasso. The 1912 M.C. Lilley has seven versions of the 02. Base price is $7.10, top is $100.

Of course, I had to have it, but according to the dealer, the owners family thinks that rare is valuable. But the dealer understood and let me take a lot of pictures. I got away cheap. Thanks, Bruce.

I have a pre 1941, M1852 USN, made in Toledo, the castings follow the M.C. Lilley pattern and the blade etching is traditional. It's scabbard is also 2 inches too long

Amazingly, I bought only one sword; a Sons of Veterans (SV) by Ames of Lilley. On the scabbard it is engraved 'Lookout Camp', the original Cleveland SV camp.

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## Sean Scott

> 1. The makers mark seems to read "Artillery 'made in' Toledo" (Spain), with crossed cannons under a crown. Can anyone add to this? 
> 2. The etching looks like that found on tourist swords and lacks the ... well, it lacks everything you would find with 02 etching. It is personalized M.Churchill. I suspect that this was done on the spot, in a Toledo sword shop.


The Artilleria Fabrica de Toledo was one of two analogues (more or less) to the Springfield Armory, the Artilleria Fabrica Nacional (also in Toledo) being the other.  The etching does look touristy, nothing like what the Artillerias produced for the local military.




> It had to have been carried into the USA by the buyer to avoid Spain being stamped on the ricasso.


Another place commonly stamped is the tang, but you would have to disassemble the saber to see it.


That point profile is pure Spanish Cavalry, though...

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## T. Graham

Thanks Sean, What did SA charge for an 02?

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## Sean Scott

> Thanks Sean, What did SA charge for an 02?


I don't know.  The Reports of the Chief of Ordnance don't break expenditures down that far.  Numbers produced are reported, but not cost.

A side comment in some correspondence from 1903 notes that Pettibone Bros. offered to produce the M1902 for $10/saber, which was apparently deemed too expensive.  SA sold the sabers at-cost and did not make a profit, whereas Pettibone had overhead to pay for.  The 1912 Pasquale catalog offers their cheapest imported M1902s for $11.  We can probably estimate that the cost for a SA saber was somewhere at or just below $10.

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## T. Graham

I anyone is interested, I may be able to match up examples of the different models with examples in my collection.
This is the 1912 catalog.

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## Juan J. Perez

> The Artilleria Fabrica de Toledo was one of two analogues (more or less) to the Springfield Armory, the Artilleria Fabrica Nacional (also in Toledo) being the other.  The etching does look touristy, nothing like what the Artillerias produced for the local military.
> [...]
> That point profile is pure Spanish Cavalry, though...


Both 'Artillería' were one and the same, only the marking varies. Officialy run by the Spanish Army and making reg. and not-reg. blades. 

The marking of the crossed cannons was approved in 1906 for privately purchased blades, and was stamped up to 1931, when the Kingdom of Spain became a Republic. So you have a time-span for your blade, which looks substantial and not a tourist one.

However I agree that the etching is too poor for an officer's blade. Maybe it was added later, by a local workshop.

Juan J.

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## T. Graham

> Both 'Artillería' were one and the same, only the marking varies. Officialy run by the Spanish Army and making reg. and not-reg. blades. 
> 
> The marking of the crossed cannons was approved in 1906 for privately purchased blades, and was stamped up to 1931, when the Kingdom of Spain became a Republic. So you have a time-span for your blade, which looks substantial and not a tourist one.
> 
> However I agree that the etching is too poor for an officer's blade. Maybe it was added later, by a local workshop.
> 
> Juan J.


Thanks Juan, for that very interesting information.

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## Simon R.

Here's a beauty coming up on the block.

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## T. Graham

This is a 'custom' sword made for a young woman in the WWI period. The name Florance Allport is engraved on the grip strap.
The only actual 02 component is the nickle plated and painted solid brass grip. The hilt and scabbard bands are more typical for the M1872 Cavalry Officers saber. The drag is the stamped and soldered together, copper type used on less expensive cadet and lodge swords. The blade is arris with a generic etching pattern that has been curved to fit the scabbard. The blade is 26 inches long.
I have no doubt that it was made by The M C Lilley Co. They could make you a sword out of any combination of components.
 It does have a charm about it.

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## T. Graham

This is a very high quality child's sword. What is interesting is the thick, radius knuckle guard and branches are like some Eickhorn 1902 types. 
The other 02 with a similar hilt was made by Eickhorn for Warnock Uniform, 1866-1945. I would date it before before WWII.

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## George Wheeler

Tim,

I love your little sword!  It is in much better condition, and has much better detail, than my Kindersable that I showed earlier in this thread.

Here is another variation that is interesting.  We discussed grip color for the M1902 Army Officer Saber and talked about them generally being various shades of aged/faded black with some exceptions.  Here is one that has a definite khaki colored plastic grip that shows no signs of ever having been a darker color.  This sword is unmarked and has no Germany stamp but is very well made.  The nickeled blade is plain and is not etched.  The nickeled steel scabbard has an integral throat piece rather than a removable one.  The only visible marking is an assembly number of 5 stamped on the hilt that would normally be covered by a leather washer, which is now missing.  A very well made sword that does have the ridge on the knuckle guard and a nickeled brass hilt.

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## A Flesch

My wife just inherited this M1902 and I am trying to get a little bit more information on it.  It is marked Ames Sword Co. Chicopee Mass.  In all my searches I cannot find any other examples with this mark.  This leads me to believe that the mark has been faked at some point.  I am not really interested in it for monetary value, as it is personalized to her Great Grandfather, but I would like to know at least where it came from.  Here are some pictures of the sword and the mark.  I can tell you that the guard is non-ferrous and there are no other markings on the hilt or blade besides the Ames mark.  What do I have here?

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## Sean Scott

Looks fine to me.  The signature is one used by Ames, the etch and furniture look Ames, and the scabbard throat looks like that Ames used.

If it's named to her great-grandfather, has remained in the family,and from what detail I can gather from your pics it looks to be a pre-WWI saber, who do you think might have faked it?  That personalization isn't scratching a name in a block left for the purpose, it was incorporated into the etch design.  The most expensive way to do it, and not "fakeable".

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## A Flesch

I didn't think the etch was faked but I thought maybe the Ames mark had been at some point since I couldn't find another example of it.  I couldn't even find another M1902 with an Ames mark.  I found some Lilley-Ames and some Henderson-Ames but none that were just Ames. I also found a list of Ames marks and this one was not on it. Do you know in what time period Ames made M1902s?

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## Sean Scott

Ames made M1902s from about 1903 until they were sold to Lilley in the mid-1920s.  

Ames-marked M1902s are not common.  They apparently did a brisk trade as wholesalers to the retail market, in competition with the German firms, but sabers made under their own mark are among the scarcest.  What you have is a nice example of what might be considered a rare saber:  an Ames with custom etching identifying the original owner.  It wasn't bought cheaply.

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## A Flesch

That explains why I had so much trouble finding anything like it.  Thank you very much for the information.  What do you recommend as far as cleaning and preservation?

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## Sean Scott

Wipe the steel parts down with a rag and some Break Free, don't store the saber in the scabbard if you can avoid it.  If the handle is horn, rub some microcrystalline wax on it.

Put together a short bio of LT York's service, maybe a photo of him in uniform, and display it proudly in a prominent place.

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## A Flesch

Thank you.  How do I tell if the handle is bone or bakelite?  It does have some tiny pits in it which I understand are caused by beetle larva on bone (see attached pictures).  How do you recommend cleaning tarnish off the guard (see attached picture) or should I just leave it alone?  Is the non-ferrous guard made of zinc? plated brass?

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## Sean Scott

Your handle is buffalo horn.  Put some microcrystalline wax on it and call it good.

Your furniture is most likely white brass, also called german silver.  If the furniture is un-plated german silver you can polish it, but I'd just wipe it down to knock off the dust and loose stuff.  You can always clean it later if the patina becomes an issue for someone, but you can't replace that patina after you polish it.

If the furniture has been plated, polishing it will only make the appearance worse.

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## A Flesch

Thank you.  I think I will just wipe the furniture down.  I can't tell if it's plated or not so I'm not going to take a chance.  I really appreciate all your help.  The backstrap, pommel, and cap nut don't look like the guard.  To my untrained eye they look like real silver.  Is that possible?

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## Sean Scott

> The backstrap, pommel, and cap nut don't look like the guard.  To my untrained eye they look like real silver.  Is that possible?


I won't say anything is impossible in regard to the M1902, but I'd put that in the category of extremely unlikely.

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## A Flesch

OK.  Well I have to say I came to the right place.  You are an incredible wealth of knowledge.  Thank you very much.

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## Sean Scott

> OK.  Well I have to say I came to the right place.  You are an incredible wealth of knowledge.  Thank you very much.


You're very welcome.  No doubt other members with more info to share will be along.

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## T. Graham

The above is a very early child's sword: likely pre 1908. The grip is brown because it is horn. It has an Ames look.

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## T. Graham

> Tim,
> 
> I love your little sword!  It is in much better condition, and has much better detail, than my Kindersable that I showed earlier in this thread.
> 
> Here is another variation that is interesting.  We discussed grip color for the M1902 Army Officer Saber and talked about them generally being various shades of aged/faded black with some exceptions.  Here is one that has a definite khaki colored plastic grip that shows no signs of ever having been a darker color.  This sword is unmarked and has no Germany stamp but is very well made.  The nickeled blade is plain and is not etched.  The nickeled steel scabbard has an integral throat piece rather than a removable one.  The only visible marking is an assembly number of 5 stamped on the hilt that would normally be covered by a leather washer, which is now missing.  A very well made sword that does have the ridge on the knuckle guard and a nickeled brass hilt.


This is a pre 1908 Ames style child's sword The brow grip is Horn.
I will post another 'small'.

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## T. Graham

> Thank you.  I think I will just wipe the furniture down.  I can't tell if it's plated or not so I'm not going to take a chance.  I really appreciate all your help.  The backstrap, pommel, and cap nut don't look like the guard.  To my untrained eye they look like real silver.  Is that possible?


Many of the higher grade M1902's have nickle silver hilts. Nickle silver, often called German silver, is a nickle alloy that contains no actual silver.
This cut from the 1912/1914 catalog describes the different models.
The Model 365 has a coin silver hilt. I wonder how many survived; because I have never seen one. Lilley hilts are often found with bent branches.They are tricky to fix.

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## T. Graham

This is a very early M1902 variant made by The M.C. Lilley Co., Columbus Ohio. It has the Lilley type 1 blade etching, gold wash finish and a buffalo horn grip. The scabbard mountings are more like the M1872 Cavalry Saber. I would date it about 1905. The tang is *not* marked 'Germany'.
The most interesting feature is the Georgia state seal. It is not marked for presentation. Was it made special for National Guard or militia use? Any thoughts.
I have another that is very similar.

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## George Wheeler

Tim,

I wonder if your Georgia sword could be related to my "Old Guard - Georgia" sword?

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...ight=old+guard

Both seem to have the same gilt brass hilt and fittings (except for the GA seal on yours) so perhaps related?  Mine was made by Pettibone but they date from around the same time period it seems.

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## T. Graham

This 02 by an unknown maker could have been carried by a child or very short adult. The hilt is similar to early WKC imports. There is not a mark on it. Maybe someday I will try to improve the scabbard. Anyone have any ideas.

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## George Wheeler

My first thought would be a Cadet sword.  I have a couple of school marked M1902s about this size.

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## T. Graham

On the US military forum there is discussion on keeping the blade in the scabbard. This Eickhorn for the retailer Brodsky has phosphor bronze 'springs' that keep the blade in with out scratching it.
They were held in place by friction between the throat and scabbard.

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## T. Graham

This oddball is basically the same as the sword that started this thread. The only real difference is the nickle plated scabbard mounts and the black painted wood grip. The blade etching indicates it was made by Ames but it is not marked. I would think it was made for a military school or a militia company.

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