# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  Children Swords

## Santiago Quer

From time to time you bump into this kind of swords. 
Here in Spain I have seen even bullfighting swords made for children.
Today, while visiting an antique dealer I know, I found this one.
It remembers me to a hussards sword and it has been even sharpened.

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## Gene Wilkinson

Looks like a very interesting little sword Santiago.
Can you give us some measurements?
Overall length, hilt and grip?

I've got a boys smallsword and I've certainly seen various boys swords owned by others.
I guess that sons have always wanted to be like their dads and dads like to buy gifts for their sons!
I wonder if your sword once had a miniature Hussars uniform to go with it?

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## Santiago Quer

It is still at the dealer's shop. I haven't bought it.
But from the ballpen I can deduce its lenght is between 50 or 60 cm. more or less
Is my estimation of Hussards French sword correct? It certainly looks like it.
The hilt is brass without any skin. And the blade is etched, although the photo doesn't show it.

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## Mike Mercier

I don't know what something one that would cost but if I came across I would seriously consider buying it. It is wonderful!

Mike

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## Gene Wilkinson

I've seen 19th century military pattern swords of diminutive scale described as 'cadet swords'. But the example shown above is really very small indeed.
If I were offered it at a reasonable price I would snap it up. I like the look of it a lot.

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## George Wheeler

I really like these children swords (Kindersabel).  Of course I also like well made miniatures as well.  This one appears to be very well made.

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## Rob O'Reilly

Here is another.  A fine miniature British 1796 Light Cavalry sabre made by Osbourn & Gunby beside a full size one, also by Osbourn.

Rob

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## brenig williams

hi lads, thought you may like to see my childs swords and some minitures, sorry about pics not much of a david bailey, 
all the best to all.brenig

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## Roy Shadbolt

Hi Gents,

A very interested thread indeed.  I have seen similar 'child' flinklock guns from time to time but never thought about the swords too.  A terrific area of study.  Very much appreciate you all sharing your examples. Brenig you seem to have a wonderful collection, lovely to see.  I would be very interesting to hear if anyone has seen an example made by Wilkinson?

All the best, Roy

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## Mark McMorrow

Hi Roy,

As a sidebar, I happen to have a child's size, scaled down Light Dragoon pistol.  Very finely made piece.  Will copy some pics to your e-mail...  :Wink:

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## Roy Shadbolt

Hi Mark,

Sounds grand, looking forward to having  a butchers!

All the best, Roy

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## Santiago Quer

What would be the difference between miniatures and child swords? 
Or is it just the same thing?
Beautiful examples you are all sharing!!!!

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## George Wheeler

> What would be the difference between miniatures and child swords? 
> Or is it just the same thing?
> Beautiful examples you are all sharing!!!!


Santiago,

IMHO, miniatures are the smaller swords under around 12" long.  Often used as gifts or paper knives or letter openers.  

Child swords can be either the highly detailed small size swords we think of as "Cadet" swords or even smaller ones made as "toys" although I hesitate to use that term.  Some generic swords with dull blades with rounded points are probably in the later category.  

Anyway here are a couple of examples of my children's swords alongside their full size regulation counterparts.

I agree with you there are some great examples being shown BTW.

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## T. Graham

Here is my collection. Three were made by The M.C. Lilley Co., Columbus, Ohio and two were made in Germany by WKC and Eickhorn. I will post these individually with more detail if there is interest.

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## Santiago Quer

Very nice pieces indeed. Do you have them with their "grown up" counterparts?

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## George Wheeler

> Here is my collection. Three were made by The M.C. Lilley Co., Columbus, Ohio and two were made in Germany by WKC and Eickhorn. I will post these individually with more detail if there is interest.


I am interested.

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## T. Graham

> I am interested.


What is interesting is the blade. It is a piece of tempered spring bar stock 1/8 x 12 that has a point ground on it. The etching was special order, because the child's name is the same last name as the retailer.
Morgan, Pulh and Morris were in business in Detroit, under that name, from 1892 till 1903. I think it can be assumed that the sword was made for a related child.

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## George Wheeler

I have a similar Kindersable to yours but it has a plain blade.  My blade is rather thick and dull and looks very similar to your Morgan, Puhl, & Morris marked sword.  I love the etching and attribution on the blade of yours.

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## T. Graham

Here is another M1860ish made by WKC after 1890.

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## George Wheeler

> Here is another M1860ish made by WKC after 1890.


Is this walking bear mark a WKC export marking?  I have wondered about that mark for some time.

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## Gene Wilkinson

Here is a mid 18th century boy's 'smallsword' next to an 1845/54 pattern for a recognisable reference of scale.
Notice that all parts are proportionally reduced including the blade. It has a multi part gilded bronze hilt of rococo design with a nicely pierced blade with inlaid brass rococo swirl patterns.

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## T. Graham

> Is this walking bear mark a WKC export marking?  I have wondered about that mark for some time.


There is nothing published about the 'shield' or 'animal' marks, but I have examined a lot of US market swords.
They are only found on swords marked Germany'; so they were made after 1890.
On M.C. Lilley marked swords you can find knights head and the 'animal' on swords with the same etching pattern.
This is a strange animal, if it had a longer tail it would be a cat. Therefore, in my infinite wisdom, I rule that the official designation will follow the Ellie Mae Clampett animal designation and shall henceforth be known as a 'critter'.

Those across the pond and under 50, will need to reference "The Beverly Hillbillies".

There is another export mark that is a shield with a Gothic letter in it. Here is an example on a ca 1900-10 Horstmann USN. I think I know who made it. There is a detail on the hilt casting that is still used to this day. Does anyone care to guess.
I wonder if we should start a new thread?

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## Gene Wilkinson

> Here is a mid 18th century boy's 'smallsword' next to an 1845/54 pattern for a recognisable reference of scale.
> Notice that all parts are proportionally reduced including the blade. It has a multi part gilded bronze hilt of rococo design with a nicely pierced blade with inlaid brass rococo swirl patterns.


Replacing pictures

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## George Charlton

I have a Gerrman IOD89 that is just on 28 inches (blade and hilt). The Prussian cypher is correct in detail just not with a II over the eagles breast.

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## Gene Wilkinson

> I have a Gerrman IOD89 that is just on 28 inches (blade and hilt). The Prussian cypher is correct in detail just not with a II over the eagles breast.


Hi George,

That is really small, I'd be interested to see it if you have pictures?

The smallsword I have is 31" overall.

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## George Charlton

In hospital at the moment. Will send reply if I survive. Joking. Sort of.

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## Gene Wilkinson

> In hospital at the moment. Will send reply if I survive. Joking. Sort of.


Hi George,

My very best wishes and hopes for a short stay in hospital and a very speedy recovery.

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