# Communities > Modern-era Swords and Collecting Community > Modern Production Katanas >  The Next Super-tana?

## Benjamin P.

http://www.swordforumbugei.com/phpBB...pic.php?t=5879

Fascinating!!!   :EEK!:

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## AaronThomas

Hey Ben!  Read that too and got real excited!  Been killen me I've checked back 1000 times...whats taken him so long to post the pics!!!

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## Jerry G.

The performance sounds amazing but the sentance that really had me wondering was this one-

_"The hamon, not achieved by classical methodology, is impressive and beautiful."_

I guess I'll just have to stay tuned for the exciting conclusion after these important messages from our sponsors.

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## Anders Backlund

The heck with the katana; I gotta get me some of that steel!  oO

It probably beats the snot out of the junk I have access to. And steals its lunch money. 

Also, I love that Paul Chen employs a mad scientist metallurgist.  :Big Grin:

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## Tom Lim

I know that this may come off a bit course to some people here but I really want to make sure to stress that nothing will ever take the place of proper form.

I respect what James Willams is doing for the sword community here, but it irks me when people are promised the moon and stars about these new production peices and then only to find out that its not what it claims to be.

Better matieral in conjunction with proper form is what ya want even if the sword is a Masamune or Excaliber.

Let's give it time and see what's going to happen with this one.

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## Jay Requard

> I know that this may come off a bit course to some people here but I really want to make sure to stress that nothing will ever take the place of proper form.
> 
> I respect what James Willams is doing for the sword community here, but it irks me when people are promised the moon and stars about these new production peices and then only to find out that its not what it claims to be.
> 
> Better matieral in conjunction with proper form is what ya want even if the sword is a Masamune or Excaliber.
> 
> Let's give it time and see what's going to happen with this one.


Wise words.... Not to pull down the happy vibes here, but until I actually see a video demonstrating the claims of this amazing steel blade, I agree with Tom on all counts. 

Even if it can do all those things, even for a production blade it is going to have such a high price point that it will most likely be unaffordable for many. 

I apologize again, but i am highly skeptical.

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## tom geusz

Ah Tom,
you and your bloody form comes first!Stuff it! I want to hack up a desk chair in a fit of rage and not worry about my edge(grin!)
Sounds alot like those new T10 steel blades I was talking to Brian Dreirer about over at Ronin.
Look at the pictures.The hamons look like custom smith stuff(choji).
-Tom

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## Tom Lim

> Wise words.... Not to pull down the happy vibes here, but until I actually see a video demonstrating the claims of this amazing steel blade, I agree with Tom on all counts. 
> 
> Even if it can do all those things, even for a production blade it is going to have such a high price point that it will most likely be unaffordable for many. 
> 
> I apologize again, but i am highly skeptical.


Or it will have copycat katanas with the same or similar make up. I do have to give it up to places like Hanwei and guys like Paul Chen who have opened the flood gates for people who want a decent peice to start out with. Back in the day when I first started, we only had the Stainless Steel Marto stuff.

I just chuckle when I see guys go nuts over something that is nothing more than a prototype. And before we all start high fiving each other, let's let this peice go thru its paces before we think that it is the best thing since sliced bread.

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## Tom Lim

> Ah Tom,
> you and your bloody form comes first!Stuff it! I want to hack up a desk chair in a fit of rage and not worry about my edge(grin!)
> Sounds alot like those new T10 steel blades I was talking to Brian Dreirer about over at Ronin.
> Look at the pictures.The hamons look like custom smith stuff(choji).
> -Tom


HAHAHAHAHA! I got your form right here Tom :Stick Out Tongue: . And yeah I agree with you about the other thing.

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## Jay Requard

> Or it will have copycat katanas with the same or similar make up. I do have to give it up to places like Hanwei and guys like Paul Chen who have opened the flood gates for people who want a decent peice to start out with. Back in the day when I first started, we only had the Stainless Steel Marto stuff.
> 
> I just chuckle when I see guys go nuts over something that is nothing more than a prototype. And before we all start high fiving each other, let's let this peice go thru its paces before we think that it is the best thing since sliced bread.


I think I should clarify (though I know you were not accusing me of anything, Tom):

I think that Hanwei has helped the sword world in such amazing and wonderful ways that i would ever try to take away their amazing accomplishments. I am not a buyer of Japanese swords, but I have tremendous respect for both Hanwei, James Williams, and Bugei of whom I respect very much.

That being said, something about this sounds too good to be true.

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## Rich A.

tom geusz: 
were did you see pics? checked the link and cant find em....

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## tom geusz

Hi Rich,
I have no idea if these T10 blades are the same thing James Williams is talking about but usually in my opinion as soon as something 'new' comes out of these Chinese forges word spreads quickly and nothing is secret very long.Most of the better offshoots were started by orignal members of the first forges.Now there are too many to count.
Brian Dreier of Ronin swords had mentioned this new tough type of steel with really flambouant choji hamons in a conversation last week.He emailed some pictures to me(which I have no idea how to post here) and they looked different than the usual chinese fair.
I'm sure he'd be happy to ablige you,Rich.
Remember L-6 anyone?

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## AaronThomas

> I just chuckle when I see guys go nuts over something that is nothing more than a prototype.


But isn't that what we do here... We all love blades and get excited when we hear about something new.  After all this is the Modern Production Katanas section... isn't it?

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## Tom Lim

I see your point Aaron, and that is where things will bite ya, because of the hype, the whispers and stuff. Not until a definitive critique by a guy like James Williams (Not the condensed one on his forum) but a better critique where a measurement of good and bad can be looked at should we consider it.

Getting excited is all well and good when something new is about to hit the market, when we get new things added to our collection and so on.

But you won't get down to the nitty gritty of the peice until all of that wears out and you can finally see the peice for what it is and make a decent call.

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## Benjamin P.

Nevermind.  Not even worth it.   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## KeRen, W.

I think it's probably a sign that Hanwei is going for L6.

Still though, you can't argue the fact that Hanwei probably did more good things for the production sword community than any other production sword maker. So when he said it's Hanwei that's making these new type of blades I feel like I can put a little bit more faith and expectations into them. 

Or maybe it's something better than L6, who knows, Hanwei's a big company, they can affort more time and resource into researches.

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## Rich A.

James Williams actually said its not L6,  but a differnt steel and process, and T10 has been around a little bit.

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## KeRen, W.

All these talks are useless until we see some pics of the sword. Dammit does anyone personally know James Williams? Please tell him to upload the photos!  :Big Grin:

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## Rich A.

I agree. until its reviewed by a outside source its just hear-say

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## Chris Osborne

This is the perfect blade for my highlander project, it can chop into concrete without suffering any apparent damage. Now, if it'll cleave the front fender off a suburban I'm totally sold.

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## J. Pitts

What caught my eye is the statement that it "resists corrosion"....

So..... a modern heat treated steel that can resist bending, has a beautiful hamon and can resist corrosion.........omg it sounds like Noob heaven :drool:  

So can it correct your technique or better yet, cut for you too...LOL :Big Grin: :   If so, I'd be in love.

curious none the less from an educational standpoint.  Nice that Paul Chen is pushing the envelope

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## Chris Fields

Hey there, I held this sword at the SHOT show, I thought it was really nice, it looked amazing. The hamon was very cool, and fitting were nice. When I picked it up I thought it just another display place, however, James stated that it was his sword. Needless to say, I put the sword down, though he said he didn't mind if I held it. lol

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## Alex Carranza

> Hey there, I held this sword at the SHOT show, I thought it was really nice, it looked amazing. The hamon was very cool, and fitting were nice. When I picked it up I thought it just another display place, however, James stated that it was his sword. Needless to say, I put the sword down, though he said he didn't mind if I held it. lol



How heavy was it in comparison to other katanas you might have held?

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## Chris Fields

It was just as heavy as any other katana of similar size and geometry. Remember, all steels have just about same densities, so it's the size and geometry that effect the weight, not the steel.

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## Jonathan Frances

I'm really looking forward to seeing any data on what this thing is capable of, especially after the strong statements from Williams Sensei.  

I remember hearing something about an L6 and a major appliance, but never got a chance to actually see it.

If this really is what we are reading, it should be pretty excellent.

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## D. Opheim

I have an itching suspicion that if the blade does perform as well as James claims (and I no reasons to doubt him) then this would be then next biggest thing since Howard Clark's mastery of L6 for his blades.   :Cool: 

However, I do suspect that the process required to produce such a blade will well exceed the costs of their top of the line blades.   Considering supply and demand, I would be surprised if such sword were sold at $3000 USD or less.   

Is suppose we will find out sooner or later.   :Smilie:

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## Min Lee

I hope they can keep the price down.

speculation but at $3k, I'd rather save a little more for a custom or look for a decent antique.

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## Anders Backlund

> So..... a modern heat treated steel that can resist bending, has a beautiful hamon and can resist corrosion.........


Also, it glows when orcs are nearby.  :Wink:

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## J. Pitts

Ha...I didn't think of that one :Hyuk!:

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## Alex Carranza

> I hope they can keep the price down.
> 
> speculation but at $3k, I'd rather save a little more for a custom or look for a decent antique.


I think that way as well. If this chinese production katana is $3k+ I would consider saving a bit more for an antique. I could also buy several descent production swords with that money.

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## les yeich

it's funny how quickly people have forgotten that hanwei *already* makes a l6 blade they purport to have a martensitic edge and a bainite body. there are plenty of other steel/heat treatments they could make, and i'm sure none of them would be any more expensive than the l6 blades they offer.

when all is said and done, though, it's almost embarrassing to watch people clamor for this kind of thing. can we say "fad" class?

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## Jerry G.

> when all is said and done, though, it's almost embarrassing to watch people clamor for this kind of thing. can we say "fad" class?


If it's embarrassing to watch them, you could always choose civil inattention by averting your gaze.   :Wink:

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## les yeich

> If it's embarrassing to watch them, you could always choose civil inattention by averting your gaze.


in order to do that, i'd have to skip about 75% of all the threads that have anything to do with japanese-style blades. where's the fun in that?

there's nothing wrong with wanting the toughest blade; i've been in that boat myself. but to hop from fad to fad, completely forgetting the last fad. . . it's reminiscent of much less rewarding hobbies.

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## Jonathan Frances

I think it's cool to see the developments.  New models, new materials, I find it neat.

I wouldn't part with my Barrett katana for the world, but I think it is really cool that companies out there are making decent products available for people who want to practice the arts or collect the weapons without making several thousand dollar commitments.

There's some pretty bold statements being made by a guy who really seems to know what he's talking about.  I know James Williams has handled a wide variety of swords, so seeing him talk about this one as he has is pretty exciting for me.

There's a difference between a fad, and some real tangible improvements in technology, material, or methodology.  From what I understand, well executed L6/bainite is pretty awesome and I'd love to have one of Mr. Clark's blades some day.  If this coming piece is at all favorably comparable to that, that is a neat accomplishment.  If anything, I would call production "tamahagane" a fad, but thats just me.

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## les yeich

i'm specifically referring to the fact that people seem to have already forgotten that hanwei *already* makes an l6 blade. it's like past accomplishments have fallen by the way-side, because this- *this*- blade is the new thing to have. that is a fad. i would bet most people who really rabidly follow or defend this blade, are *never* going to buy one themselves. 

i've always respected james williams. i have no doubt he knows what he's talking about. but keep in mind he is the main proprietor of bugei. nothing against bugei; i've owned a few bugei blades- all second hand- and was exceptionally pleased with them. however, it seems these are an up and coming part of the line-up, and i'm sure the wait for pictures is due in part to building up the suspense. in james' defense- not that he needs any- the "unveiling" was specifically on the bugei forum.

from a personal standpoint, i've had the luck to cut with quite a few blades, from production to custom. ultimately material has very little to do with how the blade performs. the best cutters i've had the pleasure to use were not "super katana" by any means. they were properly balanced, well-shaped swords that had been made to exacting standards. furthermore, it was actually handling both 1086 and l6 blades from howard clark that made me order a 1086. . . i knew *i'd* never break it. kind of like the brief backlash against 1050 a few years back. everyone started saying how the edge was so much softer than higher carbon steels like 1075. yes, this is true, but having actually cut extensively with custom blades from both materials, i can conclusively say that the difference is not going to come out in regular cutting. we're talking obviously negligible differences from a user's standpoint. 

ultimately most people really dedicated to advancing in this hobby( and by that i mean learning about the blade- why they are how they are and how various aspects might benefit the sword- rather than buying progressively more expensive blades) lose the enthusiasm for so-called "super katana". it's just. . . pointless. *shrug*. totally subjective, of course. a blade can only do so much, though. it only realistically can expect to see so much use, in any case. talk to a smith or anyone who has done true destructive testing with a variety of materials and heat treatment methods, and you'll see pretty quickly that a "normal" katana- meaning not "super"- made with proper shaping and a good heat treatment will do *way* more than most people think. it takes a *lot* to kill a good sword, and probably very few buyers will *ever* put their blades through the kind of abuse that would make such a "super katana" necessary. the only time that super materials are going to come in handy is in the hands of a really, *really* bad cutter.

that said, i'm interested to see the new blade myself. sounds like a fun project. it's an interesting niche, but expect copycats very soon, and expect people to clamor for the copycats just as avidly.

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## Jerry G.

I'm guessing you've witnessed this cycle repeat itself more than a couple times, eh, Les?

What...1095...9260...L6...don't believe the hype?

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## Timo Qvintus

> I'm guessing you've witnessed this cycle repeat itself more than a couple times, eh, Les?
> 
> What...1095...9260...L6...don't believe the hype?


Where's 1050 (KC) and T10?  :Big Grin:

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## Jerry G.

> Where's 1050 (KC) and T10?


Hahahaha...I haven't been around long enough to know precisely where they or 5160 should fall on the continuum.   :Smilie:

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## les yeich

i've seen this *plenty* of times.

monosteel (no one could believe the nerve)
swedish powdered steel 
a2 (remember phil hartsfield?)
5160 (probably kc started this one)
1050 (mostly custom)
higher carbon steels like 1095 ("1050 is *way* too soft!")
t10, 9260, and of course through out it all, l6.
name a material, it was hyped at one time. nothing wrong with that, but come on. . .

when all is said and done, very few people *actually* end up going for the hype blades, unless they're dirt cheap, until they've really been proved on the market. and that's because they're typically just fantasy blades, really. remember just a few years back when mas came out with l6 blades, and no one could believe that they might have bainite and martensite? and then more recently hanwei did the same? how many people on the forum have actually gone out and got one? more have gotten them from mas, but i've only noticed a very few that have gotten them from hanwei. basically because when all is said and done, by the time you save up that much scratch, and are willing to invest that much (and we're still talking much less than a typical custom blade) you've learned enough to want other features than "indestructibility". we see way more people going for folded blades from df or like blades/sellers. in all honesty, who here partaking of this discussion are *actually* going to buy one? the funny thing is, everyone i can think of that bought the oni from hanwei, was quick to resell it. they were all pleased with the purchase, but just wanted something more.

again, i'm not in any way *against* this niche; if i had money laying around burning a hole in my pocket, i'd definitely pick one up myself. for people that consider this a big investment, though, the only real market for blades like these is with people who have money to burn, or else maybe actual martial artists who are cutting enough to really want that toughness. the average backyard samurai will never- and i mean a pretty conclusive *never*- need that sort of blade.

of course, i have no doubt bugei is going to deliver big time with this sword. but take a few things into consideration; how much is it going to cost? if it's more expensive than other blades from bugei, wouldn't you want to go with one of their powdered steel (another fad when it was introduced) blades? we all pretty much know that they're tried and true blades. i can't recall any real blade failures from bugei, so are we to assume that the new material in some way makes a vastly superior blade? i know i for one would feel very strange if i had two blades from bugei, one folded and one the new super steel, and they cut more or less as well as one another, they both retain a good edge and don't bend with bad cuts, yet one is visually more traditional (i'll go ahead and say more pleasant, without having seen the new blade) *and* cheaper? without purposefully abusing the blade, where's the advantage of the super steel?

heck, let's make that a point of discussion, because i'm interested in opinions; where's the advantage of super steel katana?

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## Craig Holt

Les,

  I would say that MY intrest in it is strictly from a metallurgy standpoint.  I am no swordsmith by any means but I am interested in exactly what this variant is and how it performs.  That being said I DO agree with you in the fact that I like Bugei's more standard line and find that they perform just fine.  I owned a Shobu which I adored and I am saving for a dragonfly right now which i will be very excited to get.  I guess beauty IS indeed in the eye of the beholder and I rather eye the steels and designs of an older generation.  Your insight , however, is refreshing.

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## Jonathan Frances

> heck, let's make that a point of discussion, because i'm interested in opinions; where's the advantage of super steel katana?


Awesome!

Well, from what I've been able to read, resistance to stresses and corrosion seem to be the two big advantages.

Ultimately, the two very bad things that can happen to a blade are it can break, or it can rust, right?  Any improvement that makes damage from physical or environmental stresses would seem to me to be a good thing.

If the price point is reasonable, I'd probably end up picking one up.  I love my custom katana, but it would be nice to have something I can take on the road with fewer anxieties.  Since it will probably end up being sold through Bugei, I am pretty confident it will be mounted up in a manner appropriate for my stuides.

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## M.K. Ridgeway

I think it is a good thing , and in spirit with the constant improvements and innovations made by the Japanese smiths over the 1000 years...

 For appreciation I really like a more traditional sword , but for cutting I won;t be happy until I have a real lightsaber... or maybe Thundarr's sword....

 BTW, I think Les is right, the average sword user will never need mor performance than a through hardened Oni Forge or Dynasty Forge blade provides...

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## Tom Lim

1045, 1050, 1060, 1075, 1086, 1095, A-2, W-1, W-2, 5160, L-6, Tamahagane, Orishigane and whatever other steel is just that really. Without a successful heat treatment all of this is just scrap at the end of it. And even though steels like A2 are air hardened, good Phill still has quite a following of his own. I bought a few of his kozuka neck knives only because he was really my first experience in this hobby before even hearing about and meeting Bob Egnath.

I remember back in the day when going above 1050 or 1060 was unheard of at the time because of the carbon content and the fear of the blades being too brittle. That just seems like old news these days since 1095 is used a lot.

Fact is that all of the blades listed above have had there time in the spotlight as the latest steel to go to. There was even a time not long ago where even having a 1086 or L6 was the new fashion trend that was driving everybody crazy.

But back to Les's point of what is the advantage to the super steel katana? The answer is nothing really if you are not going to learn how to use it in a dojo setting under the supervision of a good teacher.

Steels considered at this time to be "super steels" like L6 are more forgiving on bad form, hasuji, distance and everything else in between.

This fad of having an indestructible blade will never go away because there will always be a new steel to excite everybody, and a company to push it. But in the end, everything breaks, chips, loses its edge and rusts.

Good form first, and then any steel listed above coupled with a good successful heat treat will serve you just fine.

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## les yeich

great points, all. being interested in these sorts of blades from a metallurgy standpoint or simply appreciating constant innovations, are both really good reasons to be interested in the latest fads. in all honesty i feel "fad" might have a bit more of a negative connotation than i intend, but depending on who we're talking about, it's appropriate. think "fan boy".

but to reiterate a point, there's only so much a blade will ever be exposed to. mark and i are pretty much always on the same page on issues like this, and he's done enough cutting with different blades to have reached the same conclusion i have. actually, a through- hardened 1050 blade is as tough as probably any backyard samurai could want. they're *really* tough.

if you're actually after a "super katana", then in my book you're going into that territory where traditional aesthetics are maybe sacrificial. i am excited to see the new bugei blade. specifically for the corrosion resistance. if i were specifically on the market for a tough blade to abuse, though, than i would go for something cheap with a good reputation. i've purposefully destroyed several blades, and done cutting with custom blades that others might cringe at, so i'm not gonna lie, if i picked one of these up, i'd beat the sh*t out of it. but then i would have made a big investment purely for destructive testing. not too smart, huh? so if i'm *not* going to abuse it, then why get it over one of their standard line?

as far as the price. . . well, that's subjective. if it were over $2k, then it would be scratched from my list immediately. you can pick up an oni (i still haven't seen any intensive testing of one, but they're l6 with a bainite body and martensite edge. . . they're tough i'm sure) and have it customized for around that price- point. this hobby is constantly changing and evolving, and i just think it's very important to keep an open mind, but think things through before going off half-cocked, as it were. i've just seen it many times, where someone bought something for hype reasons, and then started looking around at other stuff and realized they probably would have been happier with something that maybe didn't promise the moon, but was well-made, aesthetically pleasing, etc.

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## les yeich

another issue i'd like to address, and it's purely subjective, since none of us can really *truly* get in the mind of a samurai.

i often see in relation to topics like this "if the samurai had this available, they would have *loved* to have it!" or something similar.

i think history shows us pretty conclusively that samurai and the japanese in general (at the time) were *very* resistant to change. even if they miraculously had super katana available, they probably would have passed them up in favor of traditional nihonto. they would cite their esteemed ancestors who fought valiantly with the "inferior" blades, and proudly go with tradition. while i'm personally not that strict in my sword "morals" i do see the values that correspond to that sort of mindset. we're talking about a form that was perfected over a thousand years, and then almost overnight replaced by guns- and i'm referring to the foreigners of the meiji period, rather than the arquebuses used in japan, which were actually themselves almost dropped entirely after the warring states period *before* swords were considered obsolete (read "giving up the gun". . . very insightful read.). a clear case of tradition overcoming technology. japanese smiths these days are emphatic in their refusal to use monosteel, and in another thread recently i remember seeing a japanese smith quoted as more or less renouncing modern steels. it happens all too often these days that people try to impart their own views on their favorite historical figures. while i avidly believe that the samurai have been highly romanticized, exceptions to the norm are typically well documented. musashi, for instance, is popular for being against the norm. yet even he is very specific in his respect for religion, and back then the craft of the sword was literally linked with religion. documented history shows us pretty explicitly that japan was in more or less suspended time. . . in the west we had figures like galileo that questioned religion, but i'm not personally aware of any sort of similar movement in japan.

let me reiterate that i'm in no way attacking bugei or any of their respective views or products. i highly respect what they've achieved both in the jsa realm as well as the production sword realm. i think bugei is one of the most honorable, quality-driven companies around. it's the whole "super katana" concept that kind of rubs me the wrong way. accept it for what it is, but no matter how far science advances the japanese sword, we're kind of dealing with something that has arguably been perfected.

edit:http://www.swordforumbugei.com/phpBB...pic.php?t=5883 t10. . . who called it? maybe this is another blade being discussed. . . i still want to see this one.

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## Jonathan Frances

If you like the traditional steels, that's cool.

I'm not an ancient samurai, but I would imagine if my life depended on it, I would want the most rugged, durable thing I could find because I could not afford to have it fail on me when I needed it.  I probably wouldn't get too concerned over aesthetic details that don't affect performance.  If I saw something that proved to me that tamahagane could outperform say, a 1075 monosteel katana (since thats what I've got upstairs), I might change my stance because I'm way too early in this study to say anything definitively.  This is just what makes sense to me after a lot of conversations with my fellow students, sensei, and his peers and seniors.  Who knows, maybe I'll be shaking my head at this post in another year and a half?   :Smilie: 

I understand the supposed aesthetic superiority, but in terms of it being a sword and doing swordy things, I'm not sure tamahagane does anything a monosteel can't.  I'll take the modern metallurgy, thermometer regulated heat treatment, and modern quenchants over black sand, charcoal, and water.

All things being equal, it stands to reason that better materials are going to make for a better end result.  If someone can make an ok steel into something great, why not start with a great steel and take it even further?

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## les yeich

i don't believe tamahagane is superior to modern steels, by any means.

i personally am a big monosteel fan. a hamon is about as much as my own personal aesthetics demand. it's just that from a historical perspective we're talking about something that's tried and true. to argue that because such-and-such a steel is tougher, does not by any stretch negate the performance capabilities of any other steel. japanese smiths have had the option at various times throughout history to try other materials, and they invariably go back to their tried and true. i believe we'd have a very hard time arguing with a samurai to ditch what they've used for generations in favor of a blade that would be more useful than their nihonto, in the event that they might need it to pry something open with it. katana are made to cut. tamahagane, folded carbon steels, monosteel (of the proper carbon content) have all done this admirably. once we start going into the realm of super-structures within the material, we're really dealing with a novelty. are they tougher than some options? sure. . . does that mean the other options are somehow made obsolete by said innovations? not hardly. samurai have *already* depended their lives on these blades, long before "super katana" were even a realistic plausibility. we already know that they work, and were used for their intended function. anything more is really superfluous.

i personally am a monosteel fan. most my customs have been monosteel, and in the production world i typically prefer monosteel, as well. i love to examine nice hada, but for me that's getting into art sword territory, and i personally cut with pretty much any blade i buy. so i'm willing to sacrifice the hada, more out of the desire to not have it marred. i've done enough cutting, though, to know where realistic performance ends, and hype begins. heck, anyone remember when last legend first introduced the three mekugi tsuka? throughout history one mekugi is the most common method. is three safer or more durable? maybe. *shrug*. is it necessary? no! it's a superfluous addition, to impart a little more confidence in the user. same with the whole "full tang" concept. in another thread keith larman mentions seeing tsuka with something like 5"+ inches of wood with no nakago support surviving plenty of hard use, just fine. so is a full tang necessary? no. . . but for some reason a lot of people thinks it's necessary for a blade to be safe. i've gone through the craze for an indestructible blade myself. the thing is, after actually destroying a few blades, from cheap-o to really nice, i accepted that we're dealing with differences that *seem* great on paper (this blade is only capable of bending 90 degrees out of line, yet this one is capable of *180*!) but in actual practice, that's never going to come into play.

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## Ben Bouchard

I spoke with Mr. Williams at SHOT and got to handle the piece in question. When I asked him what it was made of he was reluctant and said "for now let's call it unobtanium" The corrosion resistance and non-traditional hamon (which was beautiful) makes me hazard a guess at friction forging???

----------


## Alex Carranza

Gentlemen,

I have to clarify something that I think is important.

I have seen the term "Super Katana" being given to the sword that Mr. James Williams was describing in the Bugei forum. Mr. Williams did not called this sword a "Super Katana"; this term was put to the sword by members of this forum. 
Having that said, I find some of the arguments made in this forum towards this new sword, as if Mr. Williams has presented this new development as a "Super Katana", invalid.

Regards,

Alex

----------


## Tsugio Kawakami

...Sorry if this has been stated already...as I am still reading through the posts...

...but back when I was crazy about Oni Forge (Still really like them as Kensei), they had up in the videos and pictures some snaps of a sword just like this that was in testing. It was forge folded (I'm assuming this one is not), I believe differentially hardened, and was breaking cinderblocks with edge strikes from the fully sharpened sword. I kept trying to go back to check it out, but it was only up for a brief moment.

As for the sword itself...and this has already been said...who would need a sword capable of chopping cinderblocks? If super-durability is needed, then so is more training...in my opinion at least. I mean, we still have examples of swords, mounted and remounted, that were used for six or so hundred years. I feel that this is a gimmick. A CRAZY COOL gimmick, but still a gimmick.

----------


## Jonathan Frances

I don't think anyone is looking at swords like this and thinking "Now I don't have to improve anymore!"  The idea isn't that you or I can go out there and start busting blocks, just like I wouldn't go buy a Howard Clark L6 just to throw it through a washing machine or double it over on itself in a vice.  If the sword can handle that sort of abuse, then the occasional mistake is not likely to ruin a very expensive piece of training equipment.

How many people out there feel qualified or comfortable to straighten out a bent sword or correct a rolled edge without really hurting themselves or ruining an investment?  I don't think I would be brave enough to try - if I had something terrible happen, then I'd be without my sword for at least a few weeks to several months depending on craftsman queues.  With something tough, I can use all the time I would have been out to keep improving and hopefully develop some motor skills while my buddy is waiting for his blade to come back from the shop.  If nothing else, I bet it would make for an awesome dojo loaner for those situations where you aren't quite sure of someone's ability but it is getting to be time to find out.

A six hundred year old katana is cool.  But it is going to cost an awful lot more than the 1,250.00 USD that a typical bugei sword runs for.

All that aside, as far as I am concerned the only super-katana in the world is the one I happen to have in my hand at any given moment, even if it's a bokken.

----------


## Ben Bouchard

Ultimately I think it's just nice to see some more innovation in the world of swords--it's good for the industry and it makes the hobby more interesting! I just can't wait until more specs are released on it.

On a side note Hanwei is also still working on their wootz project, and unveiled a new "Raptor" series that was really sweet for the price range.

----------


## les yeich

> Gentlemen,
> 
> I have to clarify something that I think is important.
> 
> I have seen the term "Super Katana" being given to the sword that Mr. James Williams was describing in the Bugei forum. Mr. Williams did not called this sword a "Super Katana"; this term was put to the sword by members of this forum. 
> Having that said, I find some of the arguments made in this forum towards this new sword, as if Mr. Williams has presented this new development as a "Super Katana", invalid.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Alex


no one referred to james as having called it a "super katana". in fact, if you reread the thread you'll find that everyone goes to lengths to specifically *not* put words in james' mouth. the arguments you're referring to, are in regards to the *concept* of the "super katana", and not in regards to any one blade in particular.

----------


## Alex Carranza

> no one referred to james as having called it a "super katana".


Les,

That's not the point I'm trying to make, read my post carefully. 

"I find some of the arguments made in this forum towards this new sword, _as if_ Mr. Williams has presented this new development as a "Super Katana", invalid."

And that's exactly what is happening here. If you go to the Bugei forum and read the posts replies to Jame's post, you will soon find out that all the misunderstanding is not happening in their forum but in this one.

Regards,

Alex

----------


## Jonathan Frances

While Williams Sensei did not use the words "Super Katana", I think that the way that term is being used is an appropriate description for how the blade is presented.

I don't think that is a necessarily derogatory term, and haven't seen it as being used as one really.  Maybe it is a loaded term and I just haven't picked up enough of the lingo to know better, but I'm giving the guys here the benefit of the doubt since they seem knowledgeable and reasonable.

We really can't get too far questioning the attributes, since we haven't had a chance to play with it.  It seems mostly it is a matter of people thinking this is "overbuilt" or excessive in some capacity ("more than I need", etc), which might be a fair argument and worth discussing.

----------


## Jay Requard

> While Williams Sensei did not use the words "Super Katana", I think that the way that term is being used is an appropriate description for how the blade is presented.
> 
> I don't think that is a necessarily derogatory term, and haven't seen it as being used as one really.  Maybe it is a loaded term and I just haven't picked up enough of the lingo to know better, but I'm giving the guys here the benefit of the doubt since they seem knowledgeable and reasonable.
> 
> We really can't get too far questioning the attributes, since we haven't had a chance to play with it.  It seems mostly it is a matter of people thinking this is "overbuilt" or excessive in some capacity ("more than I need", etc), which might be a fair argument and worth discussing.


I agree with you on the first  and second point:

-the fact is that some of the things Williams described as attributed to this new metal are more than a little unbelievable. That is not to say we are discrediting his word, it is that many in the sword community have been promised things before that have never matched up, so we have been tempered to not simply put all out eggs in one basket immediately.

- I think the term "super-tana" is meant to be a bit derogatory, but in this case I personally am fine with that. I mean, if nobody knew who James Williams was, they would think that this was a scam. Plus, the attributes listed for this steel are almost bordering on "noob" fantasy.

But as the point has been made already, we should withhold judgment until a time where a qualified reviewer has had time to have the sword in their hands and gives us the 411.

----------


## Tom Lim

> Maybe it is a loaded term and I just haven't picked up enough of the lingo to know better, but I'm giving the guys here the benefit of the doubt since they seem knowledgeable and reasonable.


Isn't this the point to this forum and ya gotta give it up to all of us any way becasue how many times have you seen similar threads like this get closed in a matter hours huh? But seriously, we have seen this before with the advent of practically every steel mentioned in the thread.

James Williams uses all the familiar phrases to create the hook that was cast, "resistance to corrosion", "broke a cinder block", etc. Sound familiar to anybody? Super-tana anyone?

On the bright side, at least we have James Willliams to give a good test and opinion about this blade, and then who ever feels like they must have it can buy it right? Cuz in the end, ya like what ya like. And you buy what you want.

----------


## Alex Carranza

Gentlemen, 

My conclusions are that this discussion is almost pointless until a number of people buy the sword and review it. If not that, it is simply assumptions.

Regards,

Alex

----------


## Tom Lim

> Gentlemen, 
> 
> My conclusions are that this discussion is almost pointless until a number of people buy the sword and review it. If not that, it is simply assumptions.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Alex


Alex this was my point when I first joined this discussion. But we don't have to wait until somebody buys one. I think a lot of people here are waiting on what James Williams will say about the blade.

Personally, I think that there has been an interesting discussion on subjects like, hype, eagerness, the truth about steel and realistic expectations of use.

This thread has been pretty successful really  because there has been no bad mouthing anybody, no bad mouthing the sword and there hasn't been any cattiness. This is great considering the topic.

What has been the gist of everything is, "Been there, done that, seen that, heard that, so let's wait and see."

----------


## les yeich

well if i've personally said anything that could be construed as attacking anyone or any one sword in particular, then i apologize. i think it's important to note that for most of us, this discussion has drifted from the topic of the katana james williams has introduced, into a discussion on the merits, drawbacks, hype, reality, etc. of "super katana" as a concept in general. i do *not* think it's drifted enough to merit being closed or even starting a new thread. . . the topic is "the next super-tana", and while it's a loaded term to a degree, i think it's something that comes up enough to merit really being addressed.

the fact is we've seen a lot of katana introduced, that really made some huge claims (or, i should say, the seller or manufacturer claimed. . .). fact of the matter is, they actually usually deliver, more or less. but not much moreso than other blades. i have no doubt mr. williams is being completely honest with his claims. . . the man has plenty of custom blades and a whole line of blades made to his specs. . . he knows what he's talking about. i don't question that. 

i can't say i'm playing devil's advocate here, because i'm unapologetic of the fact that my views are 100% mine and i put them forth with the intention of sharing my view, rather than trying to knock a product or even a philosophy. . . like tom said, in the end, people like what they like and will buy what they want to buy. i just know from having gone through that kind of learning phase myself, what sort of views and input are possibly constructive in building a better understanding of the hobby we're dealing with here (which is, after all, just a hobby).

i think these blades have their place. they always will, because there will always be people who value indestructibility over all other aspects. in general, though, these kind of blades won't fulfill that little urge that makes us drop a lot of scratch on a nice blade.

----------


## David Ljungström

I think that many people are "defending" the 'ol traditional katana for no reason. The sword has been a subject for change since the first one was made, it's been technology in the past and the katana is the most advanced sword. But now it's our turn to improve it(as we already have) to the better, like the swordsmiths has done in the past. 

If a Samurai would choose between a traditional katana and a "super katana" I bet he would choose the one that could chop cylinder blocks in half without getting damaged. And telling by honest, so would I. Why use something inferior when you can use something superior? We don't know if this is a super katana, but still a L6 blade is superior to a traditional katana and I would take a L6 blade over a traditional katana if I were to use it as a weapon, and since it is a weapon I think that it's only right that it is as good as it can be. Don't you agree?

----------


## Jay Requard

> I think that many people are "defending" the 'ol traditional katana for no reason. The sword has been a subject for change since the first one was made, it's been technology in the past and the katana is the most advanced sword. But now it's our turn to improve it(as we already have) to the better, like the swordsmiths has done in the past. 
> 
> If a Samurai would choose between a traditional katana and a "super katana" I bet he would choose the one that could chop cylinder blocks in half without getting damaged. And telling by honest, so would I. Why use something inferior when you can use something superior? We don't know if this is a super katana, but still a L6 blade is superior to a traditional katana and I would take a L6 blade over a traditional katana if I were to use it as a weapon, and since it is a weapon I think that it's only right that it is as good as it can be. Don't you agree?


I agree with your first point about the advancement of the method and material when it comes to making swords.

However, your second point about what a samurai would chose is (no offense) irrelevant. That is like the question who is better in a fight between a samurai and a knight. I also disagree with your point of having a better weapon: what makes a weapon great? The weapon itself, or the one who wields it?

----------


## Tom Lim

> I think that many people are "defending" the 'ol traditional katana for no reason. The sword has been a subject for change since the first one was made, it's been technology in the past and the katana is the most advanced sword. But now it's our turn to improve it(as we already have) to the better, like the swordsmiths has done in the past. 
> 
> If a Samurai would choose between a traditional katana and a "super katana" I bet he would choose the one that could chop cylinder blocks in half without getting damaged. And telling by honest, so would I. Why use something inferior when you can use something superior? We don't know if this is a super katana, but still a L6 blade is superior to a traditional katana and I would take a L6 blade over a traditional katana if I were to use it as a weapon, and since it is a weapon I think that it's only right that it is as good as it can be. Don't you agree?


While I can see where you are coming from I strongly disagree because the Samurai were very set in thier ways when it came to thier swords. It really wasn't about what was the strongest or best sword but it was more about what they had, what they could use and the fact that most were not exposed to the new and improved. If most were lucky, they inherited thier blades, or got their rigs from thier daimyo.

I think that we are a bit spoiled with 21st century technology and the like and forget that point that things were much simpler back when life literally walked the edge of a sword. A final point would be to consider that Samurai let alone the Japanese of the time were linked to thier ancestors, so the frame of thought was if it worked for them then it why wouldn't it work for themselves.

----------


## michael wilson

I would pass up on this sword or any of the PC L6
line for one of their tamahagane paper crane katana , 

Or better still , the Bugei lion dog daisho  - a beautiful daisho that keith larman put a ton of work into from design and conception .

different strokes and all that  :Cool: 

I like aesthetics in a sword as well as high performance , and if I want to bust cinder blocks ar bend a blade to a right angle  - well ive got a 1050 cold steel katana that does both  -  :Wink: 

Les , as have a few others here  - has seen sword hype before and so quite rightly reserves judgement or praise until a few pieces have been tested and reviewed by capable hands  - nothing wrong with that , no one is trying to cling to the past here ( wait and see seems to be sound advice ) 

a lot of us remember the cryo-temp fad   and believe you me , this thread is the pinnacle of online good manners compared to some of those early LL wars , ( remember those who swore a tsuka was only safe if it had 3 mekugi  - even LL
stated it was only a marketing gimmick , but that didnt stop a few fans of LL swearing it was gospel ) 

then there was the fanboyism around cheness's 9260 monosteel blades as well , now it seems that T10 tool steel is also being feted in the sub 
$500 market , 

all of which is fine as long as you keep it in context .

I would definitely wait a while though before placing any pre orders :Smilie: 

But what does make this new sword different from earlier super katana candidates is Hanwei's involvement and the patronage of James Williams 
both have bucket loads of credibility and respect in the sword community which warrants a second and third look by anyone interested in the sword 
and its performance .

personally I would love to see a review by our own dave drawdy or mat rous  - that would be great .

Mick

----------


## M.K. Ridgeway

> While I can see where you are coming from I strongly disagree because the Samurai were very set in thier ways when it came to thier swords. It really wasn't about what was the strongest or best sword but it was more about what they had, what they could use and the fact that most were not exposed to the new and improved. If most were lucky, they inherited thier blades, or got their rigs from thier daimyo.
> 
> I think that we are a bit spoiled with 21st century technology and the like and forget that point that things were much simpler back when life literally walked the edge of a sword. A final point would be to consider that Samurai let alone the Japanese of the time were linked to thier ancestors, so the frame of thought was if it worked for them then it why wouldn't it work for themselves.


I have to disagree Tom there was a quest to optimize the nihonto over time... even involving using different steel types... thus the nanban tetsu phase .. and the proud inscriptions on the nakago of swords that incorporated namban tetsu... they were constantly seeking improvements and refining the sword... or else seeking to restore its former glory... 

I think the ever practical , pragmatis Samurai would seize upon a sword of superior materials and methods... even if they kept a traditional one for a court sword.....

----------


## Alex Carranza

Hello guys,

I would like to pause the discussion for a moment and let you know that there is a video of James Williams on Discovery Channel found on the Bugei website. The sword you will see in the video matches the descriptions (at least in looks) of the sword we are discussing IMO. 

www.bugei.com

Regards,

Alex

----------


## Gary S

> I think that many people are "defending" the 'ol traditional katana for no reason. The sword has been a subject for change since the first one was made, it's been technology in the past and the katana is the most advanced sword. But now it's our turn to improve it(as we already have) to the better, like the swordsmiths has done in the past. 
> 
> If a Samurai would choose between a traditional katana and a "super katana" I bet he would choose the one that could chop cylinder blocks in half without getting damaged. And telling by honest, so would I. Why use something inferior when you can use something superior? We don't know if this is a super katana, but still a L6 blade is superior to a traditional katana and I would take a L6 blade over a traditional katana if I were to use it as a weapon, and since it is a weapon I think that it's only right that it is as good as it can be. Don't you agree?


1. I'm sure that if samurai had to be concerned about being attacked by cinder blocks, then no doubt they would want a sword capable of cutting one in half...
2. So you're telling me that a Hanwei L6, mass produced, tempered in a big bundle with other swords - is superior to a painstakingly handmade sword that has managed to last for 500 years or so?

    While I'm at it, while my personal preference if for Japanese swords; by no means is it "the most advanced sword." There is a HUGE variation in the quality and type of construction of Nihonto. Some of them were sold in big batches during the Sengoku Jidai.
Also, let's be brutally blunt here for a second. A sword was originally meant for one use: killing. Since we don't bring swords to war anymore, and you're not allowed to duel with your neighbor because he "dissed" you, there really isn't any way to determine if a new design is superior to traditional ones. There is a whole hell of a lot more to a good sword than durability. Edge retention, handling to name a few.  As far as cutting cinder blocks go, that's kinda like having a TV that flies. It's impressive as hell, but what's the point?

----------


## Jeff Ellis

> This is the perfect blade for my highlander project, it can chop into concrete without suffering any apparent damage. Now, if it'll cleave the front fender off a suburban I'm totally sold.


Chris, 
Why would anyone ever need an indestructible sword?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Jeff Ellis

> Hello guys,
> 
> I would like to pause the discussion for a moment and let you know that there is a video of James Williams on Discovery Channel found on the Bugei website. The sword you will see in the video matches the descriptions (at least in looks) of the sword we are discussing IMO. 
> 
> www.bugei.com
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Alex


That's the Nami-Ryu Instructor's sword. No idea about anything about it.

The new line is the "Raptor Series." Williams Sensei says that he used the Raptor for the bone cutting he did on time warp to test it. 

However, any other information isn't available as the Bugei Forum just changed and I'm not sure if they had plans to restore threads or just let it start anew.

I'd suggest going over to the Bugei forum and asking in their forum as you might get a clearer idea of what this is  from Williams Sensei himself  :Smilie:

----------


## Jonathan Frances

> That's the Nami-Ryu Instructor's sword. No idea about anything about it.
> 
> The new line is the "Raptor Series." James says that he used the Raptor for the bone cutting he did on time warp to test it. 
> 
> However, any other information isn't available as the Bugei Forum just changed and I'm not sure if they had plans to restore threads or just let it start anew.
> 
> I'd suggest going over to the Bugei forum and asking in their forum as you might get a clearer idea of what this is  from James himself


Correct.  The sword in that video is the instructor sword.  From what I understand it is the same steel as the standard bugei lineup.  It is one of the nicest production swords I have handled, I wouldn't call it a super-tana though.  The tanto that accompanies it is pretty cool as well.

I've heard about the "raptor series" mentioned in passing in a couple places.  Any details on that?  I remember reading something about wootz type steel that sounded similar to a vendor that shall not be named.

----------


## Travis Morris

Speaking of the "Raptor" series, I found this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Paul-Chen-Uno-Ku...QQcmdZViewItem

To bad there are no pics  :Frown:

----------


## Alex Carranza

Gentlemen,

I'm forced to let you know that the Bugei forum is now starting from scratch.

Regards,

Alex

----------


## Jonathan Frances

Forced?  Should we get the Katana Liberation Front mobilized?

After some discussion with a friend, I think we may have figured out the reason for this one being corrosion resistant.  I'll bet 5 cents on it.

----------


## J. Pitts

He means literally that the forum is starting new.  They revamped the site so it's a totally new forum with almost no new posts.

----------


## Chris Osborne

> Originally Posted by Chris Osborne  View Post
> This is the perfect blade for my highlander project, it can chop into concrete without suffering any apparent damage. Now, if it'll cleave the front fender off a suburban I'm totally sold.
> 
> Chris,
> Why would anyone ever need an indestructible sword?


They wouldn't. Tongue in cheek my friend. :Wink:

----------


## Rich A.

Ok, limited knowledge here(very limited), but what is the down side of a "indestructable" sword? If it looks good, has good geometry, and all that, were is the down side? Cost more, ok. Just dont get it. So its not traditional.

----------


## Chris Osborne

Seriously, if the blade exhibits good toughness and edge holding capabilities combined with a nicely execute hamon, it should be interesting to see as well as a good training tool. 

That said, this business about which sword a Samurai would choose is pure silliness. This is IMHO a somewhat immature mindset that views the sword as merely a tool and it's worth only in it's ability to withstand ridiculous abuse. 

The Japanese have been in the past and continue to be very proud of the traditional Nihonto, and do not consider it to be "inferior" in any way. A well made Nihonto is not only a formidable weapon, but an object of exceptional beauty, requiring a level of skill in it's construction that can in no way be compared to these mono-steel blades being discussed here. "Superior" is certainly a word that has no place or real meaning in this context.  

I would suggest going to Keith's thread in the general section. Take a look and read. Comparing something of such subtle complexity and artistic skill to a piece of tool steel with a hamon on it is absurd in the extreme. Apples and oranges people.

----------


## Chris Osborne

> Ok, limited knowledge here(very limited), but what is the down side of a "indestructable" sword? If it looks good, has good geometry, and all that, were is the down side? Cost more, ok. Just dont get it. So its not traditional.



First off, there is no such thing as an "indestructible" anything, and certainly not a sword. Secondly, there is absolutely nothing wrong with any blade not being traditional, and I don't think any criticism has been given based on that. Modern blades that are intended for training purposes do not need to be made in a traditional manner. 

Many of the modern steels have excellent properties that make them ideal for blades that will be used for cutting and can provide excellent durability. That is an accurate and un-exaggerated statement. These blades *are* tools, not art pieces in the same sense as Nihonto. Some do better in certain areas than others and will fit one particular niche better than another. Yes, some of them can handle more abuse than a traditionally made blade, although I must confess to having never seen a destruction test of a Masamune, so take that for what it's worth.

As I said in my earlier post, if this sword can pull off excellent durability and edge holding and combine those with a beautiful hamon, something that has been missing from production swords until now, I think it will be an excellent addition to Bugei's line and I'm sure will do good for them. Just try and keep the fan-boy, Highlander fantasies to a minimum. :Wink: 

Chris

----------


## J. Pitts

C'mon, fanboy highlander boys are the bulk sales of the mass market.

Jokes aside, let's see what comes out.  It'll be educational and at the very least; entertaining.   Keep pushing the envelope P. Chen...just don't get cut :Big Grin:   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Ben Bouchard

The sword in the video is indeed the new piece. The unusual wave-patterned habaki, brown leather ito, and porpoise menuki were the identical to those in the sword Mr. Williams showed me. The hamon is as dramatic as the one I examined as well. 

The Raptor series is totally different from the piece in question, allthough quite excellent.  :Big Grin:

----------


## David Arthur

The katana *sword* is folded 5,000 times!  :EEK!: 

So that's it, huh? 


Anyone know when the Raptor will start making itself known?

----------


## Jeff Ellis

> They wouldn't. Tongue in cheek my friend.


It was on my end as well  :Wink:

----------


## michael wilson

bigger,better,faster ,stronger seems to be the ideal of the modern era  - maybe its just plain daft to try and second guess a medieval warrior class by todays hi-fi buff standards :Wink:

----------


## Jeff Ellis

> bigger,better,faster ,stronger seems to be the ideal of the modern era  - maybe its just plain daft


 :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## michael wilson

aye , please forgive me Jeff  - getting a bit cranky in my dotage  :Big Grin:

----------


## M.K. Ridgeway

Dear SFI forumites

I'm always having to defend SFI on other web locations... and often feel justified in doing so...

 Its threads like this one that make it very hard to defend SFI to the rest of the sword community.

 People here are percieved as harsh , or elitist... and threads like this throw that into sharp relief.

 People take a minute to read the Board title at the top of the page *Modern Production Katanas* what does that tell us ? Those of us that have the sense to pay attention to it? It tells us the topic of conversation in this room is modern production katana ... :Hyuk!: 

 So here is a thread about a respected martial artist that is discussing a new boundry pushing sword made by arguably the top production company in the business. Terrific ... great topic for this room right?

 Enter a bunch of people who rarely post in these topics to belittle the people discussing it. To belittle the sword itself. To belittle the interest in such swords. 

 People want to start comparing this sword to custom swords , or to the incredible shinsakato in Mr. Larmans thread ?

 What in the heck for ? Who gives a crap... its not a valid comparison... not even in the same ballpark.  There are completely different reasons to discuss these two types of swords....

 I love nihonto , and custom swords ... love them .. love to talk about them....   

 But here we are not talking about that ... we are talking a bout a sword that is POSSIBLY new envelope pushing technology, that is creating a tough , yet aesthetically pleasing sword ... and the sword is being talked about by no less than James Williams ... not by some anime fan-boy...

 But of bunch of folks have to act like someone has questioned the size of their manhoods.... and make a bunch of inane , smartass comments about fanboys , and tongue in cheek this.. and indestructable that .. and all that bs... comparing a new production sword to a nihonto by a ranked smith?  WTF ?  I'm sorry I respect some of you , but butting into this thread to attempt to compare a boundry pushing monosteel production sword to a nihonto by a top ranked smith is something I'd expectfrom fanboys and intellectual midgets ... not from people as knowlegable as some of you.

 Mr. Osbornes comments thta thsi sword is interesting IF IT DELIVERS is right on the money... it will be interesting if it delivers.... no, itwill not replace a beautiful custom, or ever compare to a traditionally made nihonto... but then the purpose for making/owning/using these swords is completely different. 

 Les and Mick did much better by comparing it to a Cold Steel of a Dynasty Forge ... that is a much more valid and apropos comparison.

 What the heck is wrong with innovation?  With pushing boundries? With stretching the envelope ? When did those become bad things?

 Ok we may not NEED it . but WHY NOT strive for it?

1000 years of striving for perfection and pushing the envelope made the Japanese sword what it is today....  

I suggest some folks do a bit of soul searching about the  way you present yourself. 

 I respect most of you , and I love SFI , but a lot of the crap in this thread is hard to justify . Were this posted in the nihonto board , or even the general board then I'd understand better ... but Heck NO .. its on the Production katana board , and the topic is about a sword striving towards being at the pinnacle of the production katana realm...

 Yet all the sarcastic comments insulting the sword, and anyone with an interest in this kind of sword.

 I ashamed of many of your conduct.

Its frustrating , and aggravating . 

No wonder SFI is like a ghost town these days compared to the past , and to the other forums I frequent...

 I love SFI .I respect most of you ... but reading this thread one can  plainly see why this forum has such an abysmal reputation for respect and cordiality. 

Personally I'm quite interested in this sword, for academic purposes... I'll never buy one... but I'm interested in it and would like to see more about it.

I hope you will all forgive my frankness.

Sincerely,


Marc (waiting sheepishly for the mod-stick to fall)

----------


## Jerry G.

> *snip*


Cue _Pomp & Circumstance_

----------


## Alex Carranza

Marc,

All I can say is thank you. We needed your reply.

Best regards,

Alex

----------


## Chris Osborne

Marc, I'm not sure why exactly that you're so upset or why you should even consider that I would draw a comparison between modern swords and Nihonto on any level. My comments were in fact a direct response to several posts that were doing just that by stating that modern blades were of superior material and methods and are therefore superior blades, however I will go ahead and apologise for my part in offending anyone with my comments. 

I can say that when these subjects come up, and comparisons are made between the two as they were in these comments, I do feel compelled to share my opinion that I don't consider well made Nihonto to be inferior to modern blades in any way at all for their intended purpose, either as weapons or as art objects. I was merely jesting in my first post at all the fervour and meant no ill whatsoever, but these types of statements do get me somewhat riled. 

How my very plain comments centred on the fallacy of trying to compare the two by saying or insinuating one is better than the other could possibly be misconstrued in the way they appear to have been confounds me. Think I'll get back to work on some of these modern blades I have here. :Big Grin:

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## M.K. Ridgeway

> Marc, I'm not sure why exactly that you're so upset or why you should even consider that I would draw a comparison between modern swords and Nihonto on any level. My comments were in fact a direct response to several posts that were doing just that by stating that modern blades were of superior material and methods and are therefore superior blades, however I will go ahead and apologise for my part in offending anyone with my comments. 
> 
> I can say that when these subjects come up, and comparisons are made between the two as they were in these comments, I do feel compelled to share my opinion that I don't consider well made Nihonto to be inferior to modern blades in any way at all for their intended purpose, either as weapons or as art objects. I was merely jesting in my first post at all the fervour and meant no ill whatsoever, but these types of statements do get me somewhat riled. 
> 
> How my very plain comments centred on the fallacy of trying to compare the two by saying or insinuating one is better than the other could possibly be misconstrued in the way they appear to have been confounds me. Think I'll get back to work on some of these modern blades I have here.


Actually I said your comments were dead on.. most of the crap was in one line posts ....

 You made some succient points after some others drew the comparisons I mentioned.

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## Ben Bouchard

> Anyone know when the Raptor will start making itself known?


I can't tell you anything beyond "soon," but MSRP is just shy of $400 in any of the three styles. I would have guessed that they were much more expensive. The ones at SHOT were niiiiiiiiice... :Cool:

----------


## M.K. Ridgeway

> I can't tell you anything beyond "soon," but MSRP is just shy of $400 in any of the three styles. I would have guessed that they were much more expensive. The ones at SHOT were niiiiiiiiice...


 Looking forward to the Uno kubi... can't wait to see hanwei's interpretation of that....

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## Glen C.

Actually. the thread has been pretty sane and well mannered. Analogy and perceptions about other venues really have no place in discussions on any of the boards. My thoughts about craziness anywhere would be too easy to peeve just anyone on any venue (just call me super troll. Have snark will travel).

There had been no insurmountable issue mentioned that a moderator was needed in this discussion (yet), let's keep it that way.

Cheers

Hotspur; _this has actually been a pretty happy bunch, bantering back and forth_

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## Jeff Ellis

> I can't tell you anything beyond "soon," but MSRP is just shy of $400 in any of the three styles. I would have guessed that they were much more expensive. The ones at SHOT were niiiiiiiiice...


Wait, $400? hmm.. I may have to look into this when more info is available..

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## Anders Backlund

> what makes a weapon great? The weapon itself, or the one who wields it?


Worded like that? Definitely the weapon itself. The skill of the wielder has no effect on the physical qualities of the blade whatsoever.

I'm a very literal person, so sue me.

Now, if we change that to: "Which of these is the important factor in winning or surviving a battle?", that changes things. Personally, though, I think it's a silly question. If you are striving for the optimum, then naturally both the sword _and_ the wielder should be as good as they possibly can.

No, a supremely strong, sharp and durable sword won't guarantee victory. But I bet it helps.




> bigger,better,faster ,stronger seems to be the ideal of the modern era  - maybe its just plain daft to try and second guess a medieval warrior class by todays hi-fi buff standards


Actually, this kind of thinking isn't new by any means. Ever hear about the wootz/damascus steel? It came to Persia via India during the middle ages, and it contained micro carbides within a tempered martensite or pearlite matrix. 

(From what I can understand, that's metallurgy speak for: "Dude, this steel is totally sweet!")

Anyway, swords made from this stuff were widely sought after and were surrounded by a crazy amount of hype. According to hearsay and legend, they could cut "regular" blades in half and cleave rocks, etc.

I dunno, does this sound familiar to you guys yet?  :Stick Out Tongue: 

What I'm getting at is that getting worked up over new steel with allegedly wondrous qualities has been going for centuries already, and the Japanese were definitely no different from everyone else in that regard. It's by no means a modern ideal.

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## les yeich

if this ends up around $400, then i'm getting one. 'nuff said.

there's still the question on materials, though. seems there's some talk of a wootz-ish material hanwei is playing around with, and the raptor series might, for all we know, have nothing to do with the blade james williams was talking about. i'd like to hear more on that.

as far as comparing modern-material stuff to nihonto. . . well. . . i can't say i'm on the fence on that one, because really i'm on *both* sides. from past experiences on here and elsewhere i've learned not to necessarily even get into that debate, aside from simply stating your opinions on either. seems we can never- *ever*- argue someone into our side, right? rather than even claim one is superior (which according to context i don't believe either one to be) i try to specifically *dissuade* that sort of debate, and i hope that's the impression i've given throughout the thread.

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## David Ljungström

> I agree with your first point about the advancement of the method and material when it comes to making swords.
> 
> However, your second point about what a samurai would chose is (no offense) irrelevant. That is like the question who is better in a fight between a samurai and a knight. I also disagree with your point of having a better weapon: what makes a weapon great? The weapon itself, or the one who wields it?


I do not understand how it can be irrelevant, and no it's not even close to the question "who is better between a knight and a samurai" - and I dont understand how you can compare them. We, or atleast I are discussing the katana here, not knights versus samurais.

Yes of course a weapon is never better than it's weilder but that is double edged because the wielder can not perform better than his sword allows him to. Skill would not help a rally driver if he was sat in a 1974 VW golf with 84 horse powers if and I was sat in a 2009 golf with 4 wheel drive and 250 horse powers. A strong comparison but I hope you understand my way of thinking.





> Seriously, if the blade exhibits good toughness and edge holding capabilities combined with a nicely execute hamon, it should be interesting to see as well as a good training tool. 
> 
> That said, this business about which sword a Samurai would choose is pure silliness. This is IMHO a somewhat immature mindset that views the sword as merely a tool and it's worth only in it's ability to withstand ridiculous abuse. 
> 
> The Japanese have been in the past and continue to be very proud of the traditional Nihonto, and do not consider it to be "inferior" in any way. A well made Nihonto is not only a formidable weapon, but an object of exceptional beauty, requiring a level of skill in it's construction that can in no way be compared to these mono-steel blades being discussed here. "Superior" is certainly a word that has no place or real meaning in this context.  
> 
> I would suggest going to Keith's thread in the general section. Take a look and read. Comparing something of such subtle complexity and artistic skill to a piece of tool steel with a hamon on it is absurd in the extreme. Apples and oranges people.


I think that you have a romanticized view on the samurai as some warrior who only cared for the beauty of his blade. Like the race car driver the cars preformance always come first, beauty comes after. One who says that this somehow differs with the samurai and the katana is, and excuse me for being blunt, does not really have his/hers two feet on the ground. The katana is very beautiful but that beauty comes hand in hand with preformance, hada, hamon, the shape of the blade.

"Superior" is certainly a word that has no place or real meaning in this context. " 

How come? Still I don't understand, the japanese continued to improve the sword over 1000 years,are you saying that the japanese katana cannot be improved further? 

Some people may only care for the beauty of their blades but the sword is a tool, and as you say in a later post a tool for killing. And the better the blade, the easier to kill.  But each to his own, I respect people that can only think of the katana as it is made by the smiths in Japan, but I don't understand people who don't respect people that thinks of preformance first. It's not like the katana can be improved so much that the traditional katana will be thought of as an inferior weapon, and since we aren't samurais that use our katanas as tools for killing maybe we won't need to push a blade to extremes but I still want to know that my blade can handle it. And the traditional katana will always have it's place, I have another comparison: If you think of the traditional katana as a 1965 mustang, then the l6 or the new "supertana"(if proven to be better) will be a 2009 mustang. Fairly simple.

Well those are my views, sorry if I sound too disrespectful, that is not my meaning and don't think of my words as set in stone, there is always room for misunderstandings and errors. Especially since I'm not an native english speaker.

----------


## les yeich

i find it very funny how people keep saying that the japanese smiths improved on their blades over 1000 years. . . this actually is objectively very false! the basics of refining metals and developing construction methods was in place relatively early on in the nihonto time line, and most consider the earlier blades to be the most refined in performance, durability, *and* aesthetics. most scholars agree that as the increased demand happened, the quality of the blade actually went downhill.

i think the racing analogy is a rather bad one, no offense. a better comparison would be a destruction derby; pitting an experienced driver in an older, possibly beat up station wagon, against you in a new station wagon. it doesn't matter how good your car is, you would be demolished pretty quick, unless the older station wagon broke down. the experienced, trained driver knows where to hit to get maximum destruction. we've already established that based on historical reality, the older "station wagon" in this instance is proven, tried and true. it might not be able to smash into a wall over and over again as well as the newer one, but who cares when the newer one has already been dispatched? likewise, in a derby between two older cars or two newer cars, the outcome will rely purely on the driver.

i still think to compare the two is pointless. i specifically disagree, though, with anyone who falls into hype, or thinks that they might need something nigh-indestructible. if you don't even understand what you're doing, no increase in alleged performance in the blade is going to mean whit. if it *does* ever comeinto play, then it just shows how *bad* you are at cutting. i personally haven't stepped in a dojo in probably about two years. i don't agree with many who feel formal training is even necessary to cut. however, anything you do in your backyard- without training- is basically just conjecture, and i've yet to see someone who hadn't been formally trained really execute a cut in anything really approaching proper form. once you see a little about how it's *supposed* to be done, you realize that they had a way better idea of how to use the blade, than *any* backyard daydreamer. once you're approaching a proper form, anything above a certain performance level is pretty pointless, and i would *strongly* argue that a great jsa-doka can make a vastly inferior blade look and cut way better than an inexperienced wielder with a "super katana". obviously we don't need to get into the merits of training vs. not training, but keep in mind that training is probably *the* most important factor in blade performance, way above and beyond material or construction methods of the blade.

one thing the "super katana" *do* have in their favor is that if you honestly plan on doing *a lot* of cutting over an extended period of time (rather hilarious how most people who say that end up having a very nice wall hanger. . . ) the blade could theoretically see more use, and the durability could theoretically come into play. kind of like sca armor. they've made some stuff really heavy and changed some designs, specifically because their armor sees a lot more abuse than historical armor. so i guess my point is, if you're a really bad cutter, and plan on doing *heavy* cutting on a *very* regular basis (like at *least* once a week) then a super katana might be very useful to you. likewise, if you plan on sitting it in the kake, or using it only very infrequently and with formal training, then a high- end nihonto is for you. for the rest of us, that mid range is very agreeable, and it's very unlikely that we would need anything more *or* less.

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## les yeich

one other merit of newer, more durable materials i forgot to mention; thinner blades! to me, that's the only real innovation as far as "super" materials are concerned. obviously this comes down to personal preference as far as weight and handling goes, but i know the l6 blades from howard clark that *i've* seen were thinner than his 1086 ones, and were pretty fast in the hand. some would argue that this could actually impede heavy cutting, but that's not something i've seen or personally encountered. i don't think the weight of a blade comes into play in the cut as much as most think. the katana cuts, it doesn't chop or bully its way through a target. interestingly enough this kind of parallels the arguement i make with "super materials", in that during "regular" cutting you're realistically never going to have to cut a material challenging enough to truly require a thick, heavy blade.

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## Travis Nicko

I, personally, am kinda torn on this whole thing; on the one hand, from a mechanics standpoint, I am nearly giddy over the prospect of a new blade  that is harder to bend or break, requires little maintenance and is katana-shaped  :Smilie:  On the other hand, as a collecter striving to mature to bigger and better things, I kind of side with the point that these are weapons of combat AND beauty and the art of wielding one does not include cutting houses down. But it is nice to see such a long, in-depth thread on the modern prod. katana board...I've missed these!

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## Jay Requard

> I do not understand how it can be irrelevant, and no it's not even close to the question "who is better between a knight and a samurai" - and I dont understand how you can compare them. We, or atleast I are discussing the katana here, not knights versus samurais.
> 
> Yes of course a weapon is never better than it's weilder but that is double edged because the wielder can not perform better than his sword allows him to. Skill would not help a rally driver if he was sat in a 1974 VW golf with 84 horse powers if and I was sat in a 2009 golf with 4 wheel drive and 250 horse powers. A strong comparison but I hope you understand my way of thinking.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that you have a romanticized view on the samurai as some warrior who only cared for the beauty of his blade. Like the race car driver the cars preformance always come first, beauty comes after. One who says that this somehow differs with the samurai and the katana is, and excuse me for being blunt, does not really have his/hers two feet on the ground. The katana is very beautiful but that beauty comes hand in hand with preformance, hada, hamon, the shape of the blade.
> 
> ...


Why do you need to know what your blade can handle that? Like Les said, no matter how great your blade is, if you have bad form, it will not matter at all. Plus, anyone will want the 65 mustang over the new 2009, simply because it is tried and true, and with anything new (and new is not bad by any means), there is always more than a few kinks to work out.

Anything else that can be said Les already has said it.

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## Craig Holt

This reply is based solely upon incomplete information..but if this sword, sold by Bugei who has a solid reputation as far as I am concerned, is going to be around 400-600 dollars I am getting one to be sure.  If Williams Sensei says it is tough then it IS tough.  In the very least I will use it as a cutter and give my Bugei Dragonfly(which I absolutely adore) a break!!  Yes, Les, I am with you on this one! At the most if it is dear to me I will send it off to Fred Lohman to get it remounted like I prefer such as I am doing soon with a Bugei Shobu Wakazashi to make it match my Dragonfly(i know i know i just like the shobu wak blade and fittings better)

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## David Ljungström

I've read the replies to my post but I can't be arsed to quote them. So I will go ahead and answer. 

Telling by honest it feels like my post went on deaf ears and the replies were of the same thoughts as before my post. I know that today you won't use ur katana to kill people, and if ur caring for your blade you will stick to tatami or green bamboo. And that's nice, that's how it should be since tatami is said to be the closest to cutting a human. But tatami does not wear armor nor can they parry your strikes with a sword themselves. But against another human, armed like yourself it does matter if your weapon which you are placing your life in breakes. 
And yes I am talking about old Japan, I know that there are no battlefields anymore where u uses sword and armor, but does that not apply to using and training the use of the katana att all?

If your blade breaks and your opponents blade does not you are screwed, so is it not better to have a blade that does not break? It seems to me that people think katanas did not get damaged during battle and that each fight was executed with one fast strike to the throat. Just because nihonto we see today rarely are damaged does not mean they never got damaged, more the otherway. But damaged blades were fixed since tamahagne was bothersome/expensive to make. 

So trying to make a point here but to me chosing the superior weapon is the only choice, so thinking otherwise is kinda hard.

Well tired now so going to end this post soon but will be back tomorrow for more  :Big Grin: . Oh and my argument is only valid if the weapon really IS superior to a nihonto which it is if it can cut something that the nihonto can't without getting "hurt".

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## D. Opheim

> Telling by honest it feels like my post went on deaf ears and the replies were of the same thoughts as before my post.



Funny thing "opinions"; they make little difference to others who have there own.   :Wink: 


David your new, so its not a big deal to speak your mind, a lot of people here do as well.  But don't expect everyone to listen or agree, especially when it comes to the topic of katanas (and interpreting their history).  Fair warning should be observed.   :Smilie:

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## M.K. Ridgeway

To point out a consideration... it is the new Raptor models that will be $400 MSRP... they are in the works...

 The sword James is talking about is not even a prototype... definitely not a raptor... and its safe to say that if it ever makes iot to market will be much costlier that $400....

 As far as the nihonto NOT being refined over time , I beg to differ . Certainly the Koto era marked a benchmark ... but innovations continued ... experiments with barbarian steel... edicts... all these are experimentation and innovation... not all innovations succeed , except in the fact that they are the error in trial and error... and lead to lessons learned...

 Certainly the shinshinto era saw a thrust to revive the glory of the past... but all the experiments , failed or not , got the Japanese sword to where it is today... sometimes mistakes and devolution must occur for progress ultimately to be made.

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## David Ljungström

> Funny thing "opinions"; they make little difference to others who have there own.  
> 
> 
> David your new, so its not a big deal to speak your mind, a lot of people here do as well.  But don't expect everyone to listen or agree, especially when it comes to the topic of katanas (and interpreting their history).  Fair warning should be observed.


Aye I do not expect everyone to agree or listen, but when someone replies to my post I expect them to have read it  :Smilie: .

Thanks for the warning Opheim, but I like discussions to much to stay away  :Big Grin: , I'm no expert in the history of the katana but I add comon sense to what I know. And that is usually how it is  :Smilie: .

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## Anders Backlund

So, am I the only one who doesn't particularly care about what context this hypothetical super-katana would be used, if at all?

I'm not even a martial artist, but I would still want an indestructible sword even if it never saw any practical use of any kind. This is because, to me, the quality of a sword as a weapon is part of what gives it value and beauty. 




> Why do you need to know what your blade can handle that? Like Les said, no matter how great your blade is, if you have bad form, it will not matter at all.


Isn't this line of thinking kinda backwards, though?

The interesting question should be whether or not it matters if you have _good_ form.

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## Travis Nicko

I believe it would matter if your form was bad enough. After all, if you scoop a cut bad enough you won't even be able to cut a single mat...friction will overcome force as the blade turns sideways. This is from my own experience, though, and not formal training.

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## David Arthur

> I'm not even a martial artist, but I would still want an indestructible sword even if it never saw any practical use of any kind. This is because, to me, the quality of a sword as a weapon is part of what gives it value and beauty.


Agreed. I'm more in it for artistic and aesthetic purposes and half of what adds to that beauty is the notion in my mind that it _can_ perform also. It's easy to make something look pretty, but to make it also a functional weapon with a practical (disregarding today's standards) use? Beauty and functionality go hand in hand. I frequently debate my friend about unmentionables. Let's just say he prefers functionality with little regard for style. He's always telling me what I like is inferior in some way, yet I'm looking for style _and_ functionality. They both add to the beauty of the piece. I mean... if someone makes the most beautiful looking Japanese sword I've ever seen and tells me the blade was painted onto a rusty lawnmower blade, it won't seem visually attractive anymore. It's all about the security in our heads, knowing what something is probably capable of.

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## les yeich

i don't know if there's a figure around for how often or many nihonto may have broken in historical duels or wars, but i do know they have been recorded, and the japanese had an amazing ability to record even little details of such things. i think generally it's accepted to have not happened very often.

mark, i've only read of a very few experiments with nanban steel. it's generally accepted (and of course there could be some prejudice here) to have been rejected pretty unanimously, although it became popular for armor. carlo posted a good quote from a japanese smith abut it, but unfortunately i can't remember where that was, or if it was even on this board. 

such experiences and experiments generally just encouraged smiths to return to their roots, which is why i find it hard to call any of these blades innovative. there are definitely differences in blades made during different eras, and obviously with enough difference so we can tell them apart, but from a metallurgy standpoint, there's very little change that could be considered innovative. when a smith like yoshihara wants to make a koto inspired piece, he makes it just like his tradition tells him to. of course i'm simplifying this somewhat, but really what could be construed as innovations could possibly more accurately be termed simple changes in style, obviously reflecting the type of use it might be needed for. such aspects are generally just geometry and such. i'm sure someone more knowledgeable than i could elaborate on how heat treatments may have differed, but i think generally that could differ from school to school, and, again, the older ones are usually viewed as the most impressive. such innovations could very easily revert to the previous style, if war broke out during peacetime for example.

i'm curious about the raptor series, but more so about the blade james is talking about. i'm thinking it could be more expensive, like mark said. i keep seeing mention around of a wootz-ish material, and i'm wondering if that's it. one other forumite referred to it as similar to a certain company we don't talk about on here.

what makes the raptor series different?

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## les yeich

i just read through the other thread keith posted. i want to make it clear that i'm not comparing that blade to any other blade, but what that thread clearly illustrates is the deep understanding nihonto smiths have in their craft. it's not just luck that they came out with specific features; they had an idea of the various activities that could be achieved, and understood how that translated into a functioning sword. i've talked to quite a few people (and i'm of a similar opinion) that katana should almost by definition be very stiff blades. part of the cutting dynamic. often these more durable blades translate into more flexible blades, which can feel somewhat flimsy in a cut. it's not as pleasant (to me) as a really stiff blade. other cultures may have striven for that, but they were a totally different cookie. dunno. . . i'll think a bit more on that.

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## David Ljungström

I think I get your point les yeich, and I have to say that my skill with the katana is very limited so I cannot tell the difference between a DH katana or a TH katana. But the Japanese DH'ed their blades for a reason, I understand that and I dunno which is better between the two. And I will not debate wheter a TH katana is a katana at all, because I don't have an opinion on that my self. But I still think the katana can be improved with todays technology, if it's TH or DH I dunno, but improved I think yes.

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## Ben Bouchard

To clear things up a bit--

The Raptor Series will be available in Shobu-Zukuri (MSRP $375), Shinogi-Zukuri (MSRP $399) and Unokubi-Zukuri (MSRP $399).

These are not in the mystery steel in question (they are in 5160) but appeared to me to be of a quality MUCH higher than their pricing would indicate. The flyer copy says they've been heat treated to have higher resilience and tolerance of misdirected cuts.

As mentioned the mystery sword in question isn't even a prototype. There is a shamshir prototype (unveiled last year at SHOT) that is in true wootz (not pseudo-).

If I get the time later I'll post some pics of the Raptor flyer.

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## Jeff Ellis

> If I get the time later I'll post some pics of the Raptor flyer.



Sweet! can't wait.

So, they will have hamon, or no?

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## David Arthur

> If I get the time later I'll post some pics of the Raptor flyer.



That would be *most* appreciated!

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## les yeich

jerry just posted this in another thread;

http://www.crkt.com/hisshou.html

i remember seeing it in a youtube video where james williams was holding it and discussing its merits as an actual combat knife.

it's sort of reminiscent of wally hayes' tak-kat.

http://www.hayesknives.com/blade4.jpg 

now, in my mind, these are actually pretty cool. they don't make any claims to being traditional, but have enough resemblance to make an impression. if we're talking about "improving" the katana so much, then why stop at the blade? if bugei or hanwei were to put their new, incredibly resilient and corrosion-resistant blade in a mount like that, or even an injection-molded rubber tsuka (like the hissatsu), then i'd be more than willing to snatch one up. any comments?

edit; heck, for the sake of illustration, check out a couple more tactical- inspired japanese-style pieces from wally hayes; http://www.hayesknives.com/japan.html

am i alone in thinking somewhat in this direction? i'm not necessarily a huge "tactical" fan by any means, but i think the possibility is there for a really tough mount to match the really tough blade. several people have tried projects like that (tinker, Brian Vanspeybroeck, patrick hastings, atrim, paul champagne, to name a few) with varying degrees of historical inspiration. i can already sense some flaming for that, but honestly these blades are so different from their historical inspirations, that i personally see no harm in going all the way. i think that would make it a lot harder to argue whether one sword (style, ideology, etc.) was superior to another, because it wouldn't be trying to pose as anything else. it's a *new* sword. neither to be confused nor compared with nihonto.

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## M.K. Ridgeway

No les,

  I agree as well... I'd love a bit longer sword much like James's frog gigger, with a well made modern grip... even something like John's Ronins appeals to me...

 I had a modern katana interpretation with a studded leather grip, and liked it very much,,,

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## Benjamin P.

> jerry just posted this in another thread;
> 
> http://www.crkt.com/hisshou.html
> 
> i remember seeing it in a youtube video where james williams was holding it and discussing its merits as an actual combat knife.
> 
> it's sort of reminiscent of wally hayes' tak-kat.
> 
> http://www.hayesknives.com/blade4.jpg 
> ...


I gave up on this thread for a while, but I have to say.... Wow.  I have never heard of Wally Hayes before.  Thank you, Les.  Personally, I really really like what he's offering and the kind of "direction" and wouldn't mind at all.  I'm going to go do a search for Paul Champagne now.  If I'm unsuccessful I'll bug you about details of his work.

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## Ben Bouchard

As Promised:

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## David Arthur

:EEK!:  Thank you very much, Ben!

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## Travis Nicko

...so they're through hardened  :Confused: ...ok, nevermind. No wonder they can stand up to botched cuts.

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## Ben Bouchard

Don't let that fact dissuade you...they're really quite nicely polished and rugged. They're intended as hard use blades and Mr. Williams has apparently been using one for all of his pig-cutting excercises. According to him they're very impressive!

There's an interesting thing about the kissaki as well...on the mune right where the kissaki begins there is a slight flare or incline that serves as a reinforcement zone and was added to help relieve stress on the point during hard impacts. It's very graceful and an interesting visual element as well as a functional one.

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## Travis Nicko

that's why I never bought a through-hardened cheness, oni, or kris katana...of course, no production sword is truly "traditional" but, imho, I prefer the look of a clay-hardened blade

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## J.Williams

alot of great feeling in this thread

to the comment about broken nihonto blades... I remember about 15 years ago seeing a nihonto that had been mounted in gunto fittings and had in the heat of the war, taken a  bullet thru the saya and had become embedded in the blade, so that goes to show you that they could take a beating even from the side, and as I recall, the officer wearing the sword was saved because the sword took the bullet rather then his side

thats not something they show any of the time warp or warrior videos were they shoot the HA with a 9mm etc., all of those are from the HA edge

but maybe that brings up a good point, becuase on one of those shows they shoot james nihonto with a 9mm and the bullet leaves a tiny path scratch on there, and then they shoot a 1095 made at Howards forge and because it was not polished well the blade takes a big scratch.

so (IMHO) it seems like it still comes down to geometry and heat treatment versus the steel type. 

I have spent time with James and Big Tony who are both master cutters of mat and bamboo, so their imput is well respected and well deserved. I was at the orange county show when they introduced the shobu and crane, both which are great blades.
Also go to meet Howard Clark and see his blades in person. Also amazing pieces.


But what seems odd lately as everyone's marketing changes, the emphasis seems to be blade surviving better under bad cuts. Which goes to validate the earlier comments about form.

Even a "lightsaber-like" katana would suffer some stress and or damage under a bad form and cut. To many of those and the sword or at least its tsuka will be destroyed.

I have cut with 1045,1050,1075,1095,L6,stainless ( I was young and dumb so please forgive me ), and with 2 nihonto. To me, what made the difference in the cut was geometry not the steel when I cut properly. I loved cutting with the nihonto but was so afraid of scratching it that I would never use one all the time since i couldn't live with myself destroying an antique masterpiece. 1095 and 1050 cut the same to me and two of my current cutters are made from 1050. They both take a bad cut when I off my form well enough.

I'm to new here to know what company is being mentioned that is not discussed here, but I hope its not Kris because I just mentioned it.

The other night at the school, the sensei handed me a kris katana to inspect and it not having a hamon is a bummer because that is such an amazing part of the blade, but hamon don't help you cut better. I mainly noticed that the geometry 
was soft, with no crisptness to it. 

Next I was handed a cheness silicone blade, same thing. Geomety was soft and there was no hamon, but is toughted 
is its bad cut resistancy. 

Crispness and geometry makes a difference in the cut
to me more then the steel does is what I think I am trying to express.

Knowing that you can take a howard L6 blade and supposedly 
dent an engine block with it without worry to the HA, does that speak about the steel, the geometry, the heat treatment, the maker
or the Ki of the swordsman, or all of it combined. Short version is that unless we are in the MATRIX cutting up tire and rims of passing
vehicles, that ability is overkill since bamboo and mats dont have steel cores~

Looking at the raptors they like like nice profiles, but first thing I notice is that they use the same ruff cast tsuba that the last legend blades use current on their family blades. 

These to me make the blade look extremely cheap, but makes me think that with the myriad of tsuba out there so perhaps they think that everyone will just swap out the fast cast one something much nicer that the individual prefers.

Again, tsuba do not help with form or cuts and I personally have 
tanto tsuba on most of my katana because I prefer the smallest guard on there as possible. I know a few others here feel the same way.


So long post short, in skilled trained hands even the non supertana's are capable of super things

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## Chris Osborne

Here ya go fellas.

http://www.swordforumbugei.com/Board...06288&start=10

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## Timo Qvintus

The hamon isn't too boring, but that habaki steals the show in my books. Wow.

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## M.K. Ridgeway

The hamon looks too random to me... the habaki IS stunning....

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## les yeich

i'm just about positive the production version will *not* have that habaki. it was mentioned as being mounted in nami ryu mounts, and that seems to be the style. i'm curious what the final mount theme will be.

i'm wondering why the material hasn't been officially listed yet. if it's gonne be copied, it's gonna be copied. seems kind of silly to play cloak and dagger so much.

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## J.Williams

weird that they are being so secretive about it, where is the harm in showing the geometry of the blade, are they worried cheness will run out and make one?

hamon is nice but a little to wild and patchy for my tastes

that habaki is probably available at half the cost of the sword  :drool:

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## David Ljungström

Aye they are cunning those Cheness(haha).

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## Jerry G.

> weird that they are being so secretive about it, where is the harm in showing the geometry of the blade, are they worried cheness will run out and make one?


Not Cheness so much as Cold Steel; they're probably still stinging from the Dragonfly knock-off and trying to give Hanwei sufficient lead-time to get the production tooling and process optimized so their new design remains unique for as long as possible.

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## Jeff Ellis

> The hamon looks too random to me... the habaki IS stunning....


Didn't someone say that the hamon is nontradtitionally made on this one? It shouldn't matter, anyway, really, not if what they're saying is true. I'll ask Mr. Williams if he can clarify it?

Also, 5160 is one of the other steels you hear guys making bainitic for blades. Affordable Bainite. mmmm

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## Jeff Ellis

However, after looking at the flier again and drooling onto ym keyboard, I remembered my biggest annoyance with Hanwei... They only make swords in one length, and that depends on what sword it is. I'd seriously be willing to pay more for a sword that I could get in various lengths.

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## J.Williams

did not know about the bad blood over the dragonfly

since coldsteel blades don't appeal to me for their lack 
of hamon, tsuka shaping, fittings being sub par, and the 
ito being tied with extra slack on purpose~

hehe

have never seen one that doesn't suffer from that
and I have seen at least 12 of them. The imperials series that is.

but their own quote
"As a way of compensating for this size disparity, Cold Steel has created the Dragonfly Series samurai swords. These samurai swords feature thicker, wider and heavier blades, which mirror the Imperial Series in respect to heat treatment, polish, quality of furnishings, and attention to detail, but with a few new departures. "

so I wouldn't expect this dragonfly to compare to the zukuri from Bugei which had great black iron fittings and a clean tight ito.

But if the flyer is already out there and the blades are available then coldsteel might already be working on a knockoff~
But that's pretty much SOP in business, and especially in china.

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## les yeich

> since coldsteel blades don't appeal to me for their lack 
> of hamon, tsuka shaping, fittings being sub par, and the 
> ito being tied with extra slack on purpose~
> 
> hehe
> 
> have never seen one that doesn't suffer from that
> and I have seen at least 12 of them. The imperials series that is.


i've personally owned one of every single japanese style sword (including wakizashi and tanto; both imperial and warrior) offered by cold steel, excepting the dragonfly series and the nodachi, and i have *never* encountered any of the problems you listed. considering the swords come from the same place as dynasty forge, last legend, swordstore, the now defunct cicada forge, and several other retailers, i think you'd be very hard-pressed to back up those statements. no offense meant, just pointing out that a  *lot* of the posters on here are *very* familiar with a lot of brands, and we jump on claims like that *very* quickly. the only time i've actually ever encountered negative feedback on the cold steel stuff was a.) second-hand people who were just regurgitating others' statements b.) people who don't know enough about japanese-style stuff to realize the pob isn't going to be 3" (this started the crowbar myths, despite all the blades i've owned or handled being quite pleasant), and c.) other brands who criticize them to make their stuff seem better. the last instance being especially funny back when last legend first came out, and claimed *their* 1050 blades didn't rust as fast, even though they came from- if not the exact same foundry- related foundries :Stick Out Tongue: !

i'm also not awars of there being any bad blood between cs and bugei. i was mostly just being anecdotal about guarding their designs, as any copies of production blades rarely ever get taken very seriously, i.e. the ebay copies of hanwei tsuba. i'm pretty sure we're just witnessing a marketing tactic. nothing wrong with that, just a little annoying to those without the patience to wait it out! :Smilie:

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## michael wilson

Ive owned 4 col steel katana and on all of them 
I thought the iron fittings were above the quality of price comparable swords from hanwei or LL , 

the tsuka shaping is/was way better than the tsuka on the low to mid end chen swords , 

they had some nice touches a well like a matching iron kojiri on the saya and nice thick copper saya instead of the usual plani butt ugly brass seppa that chen katana have .

also the 'handles like a crowbar myth' is usually passed on as hearsay  - Les , I believe you once 
said that anyone who says cold steel katana are too heavy to use needs to take out a gym membership :Big Grin: 

if that is one of your quotes I agree with you mate 


I wont defend Lynn Thompson in hot pants on the sword proof dvd though  :Gag:   ( shudders )

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## J.Williams

not offended by you having a good experience with them, in fact that's a really good thing. I just haven't is all. And my experience with cs is only on their imperial katana line. maybe all the ones I have held have all been seconds. But I find it interesting that all the ones you have owned have had hamon but none of the ones I have ever seen did.

my only guess is that they have upped the quality level from the last time I played around with one which was about 5 years ago.

my experience with them then was enough to turn me off to them permanently, so the next time I see one I'll inspect it more closely to see if they have changed, from their website it looks like the warrior series has nicer fittings then the imperial though at first glance~

they may all come from the same forging neighborhood in northern china, but they are all treated differently depending on who they go to and what they cost ofcourse.

there are always diamonds in the ruff~

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## les yeich

hehehe i probably said something like that. i always laugh when i see people clamor about how great the balance is on a df or huanuo piece, and then see all these "cold steel are *so* heavy" posts. honestly they're pretty much identical blades. if it's too heavy for you, then either you're just too weak to pick up a sword, or else you've fallen for this mistaken myth that katana should have a pob of 3" or less.

actually the double edged kat i got from them had probably *the* best tsuka shaping i've *ever* seen on a production piece. it was very waisted, which i like. also one of the fastest blades i've ever handled. it and the kc 26 were almost scary fast. i had trouble trusting myself not to injure myself!

on the down-side it seems some retailers offer similar blades at a little more competitive price.

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## les yeich

> But I find it interesting that all the ones you have owned have had hamon but none of the ones I have ever seen did.


who said anything about hamon? :Confused:

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## J.Williams

> who said anything about hamon?


I did remember as one of things lacking in their blades and 
one of the reasons they do not appeal to me, and you said I would have a hard time backing it up~  :Big Grin: 

" quote from previous thread "
since coldsteel blades don't appeal to me for their lack
of *hamon*, tsuka shaping, fittings being sub par, and the
ito being tied with extra slack on purpose~
"

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## Jeff Ellis

Guys,
I asked over on the Bugei forum to find out what I could. Apparently, and I might have missed you all saying something about this, the Raptor blades are *not* the same blade that you see in the photo on the Bugei site. 

My interests are perked even further...

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## les yeich

> I did remember as one of things lacking in their blades and 
> one of the reasons they do not appeal to me, and you said I would have a hard time backing it up~ 
> 
> " quote from previous thread "
> since coldsteel blades don't appeal to me for their lack
> of *hamon*, tsuka shaping, fittings being sub par, and the
> ito being tied with extra slack on purpose~
> "


you seriously need to read posts before replying to them, as what i'm refering to is the following(which i quoted in my previous post):




> But I find it interesting that all the ones you have owned have had hamon but none of the ones I have ever seen did.


again, when did i or anyone else mention cold steel having hamon?

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## J.Williams

your statement to my post was 

"i have *never* encountered any of the problems you listed."

in my list of things was a the lack of hamon, so I was laughing because you included that and said you hadn't experienced anything
I listed

nevermind, now that I have explained it is just going to grind the chance of it being a joke into the dirt

apparently it either wasn't understood as a joke or just not funny

either is fine

and I'm patient enough to wait out the reviews of several people here getting one of these super blades, but if it takes to long I may succumb to getting one because I love shobu. and I have a great koto period tsuba in my collection that needs a good home.

next week I will try to drop by Bugei and have a look see.

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## Jeff Ellis

Also, I'm told that the Raptor series will not be available until midsummer. But I am really excited to see one.

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## M.K. Ridgeway

> Also, I'm told that the Raptor series will not be available until midsummer. But I am really excited to see one.



 I have heard the same... I have one on order, so when they get here I 'll put up a review...

I'm getting the uno-kubi

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## Jeff Ellis

> I have heard the same... I have one on order, so when they get here I 'll put up a review...
> 
> I'm getting the uno-kubi


I would be getting the u-no-kubi, but I don't like that wrap. The shinogi looks good, but it's a little shorter than I'm used to.. Hanwei really needs to do length options...

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