# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  1910 Officers cavalry sword "Special"

## Will Mathieson

Just arrived a Wilkinson sword made in 1910 with 35 inch Toledo blade, 7th Hussars special guard and pre 1912 grip with leather finger loop. 
Ordered by F.W. Bevile. Some difficulty in finding this fellow listed.
Douglas Haig statue shows him mounted wearing the same pattern sword for the 7th Hussars.

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## Ben Bevan

Super sword Will, but your man's a mystery, found a few Beville's in Hart's 1910/11, but not that spelling, and struggling to see FWB on the blade pics posted elsewhere. Perhaps FW was not the officer concerned but a rich sponsor or relative, given that there is no specific regiment given under his name on the register.....good luck!

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## Will Mathieson

I can only see a "B" in the intertwined initials, the rest is obscure.

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## Will Mathieson

The initials do match the purchaser, F.W.B. Thanks to Gordon for figuring it out.

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## Matt Easton

What an absolutely wonderful sword!

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## Max C.

Very nice find Will!

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## Paul Evenden

Wonderful rare pattern sword will and good luck researching its owner

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## John Sheard

Hi Will,
Good to see another of these rare and unusual Wilkinson’s emerging. I note a common reference to the 7th Hussars, but I wonder if there was ever a 7th Queen’s Own Hussars regimental pattern in the same way as the earlier 6th Dragoon Guards etc.

Whilst there are likely to be a number of undiscovered examples, all with pistol grips and thrusting blades, the following six are documented to a varying degree:

A F A Imbert-Terry	Wilkinson 32414	22 November 1893
			        Queen’s Own Regimental insignia guard 
			        7th Hussars grip, 7th Hussars etching to 38 inch blade

J F Laycock		Wilkinson 32921          January 1895
			        2nd Honeysuckle guard, 7th Hussars style grip

E S E Harrison					1900
			        2nd Honeysuckle guard, 7th Hussars style grip

C J Briggs		        Wilkinson 39635	23 October 1902
			        2nd Honeysuckle guard, 7th Hussars style grip

F W Bevile		        Wilkinson 42618	17 May 1910
			        Scroll guard, 7th Hussars style grip

D Haig	                Guard unclear from photographs. According to Robert Wilkinson-Latham, a 7th Hussars Special Pattern with a stretched Honeysuckle guard.

Of these examples, only that of Alexander Frederic Aime Imbert-Terry can definitely be attributed to the 7th Hussars. 




I don’t know whether Haig’s sword carries a similar regimental guard or is assumed to be 7th Hussars due to the grip and the fact that his original regiment was the 7th. Richard Dellar quotes a reference to Haig's sword (The Swordsman No 22) but I am unable to source a copy.

Imbert -Terry bought his sword when first commissioned as 2nd Lieutenant when Haig was already Captain. The sword number is, as far as I know, the earliest yet recorded of this type and it would be interesting to know if this pre dates that of his senior officer. Indeed, was a regimental pattern ever approved by the Colonel of the regiment or was this simply the private purchase of a young officer about to depart for India and sufficiently aware to require a more practical sword than the current 1821 regulation pattern? In any case the use of a pistol type grip and straight thrusting blade as early as 1893 (15 years in advance of the 1908/12 patterns) seems worthy of special note.

A F A Imbert-Terry was the disinherited descendant of a French aristocratic family (Imbert de la Terriere) and this might go some way to explain his choice of hilt in view of continental trends.

Will and John:  I note your comments with respect to the grip wire on your swords. The wire (or what remained of it) definitely extended down to the ferrule on the Imbert- Terry sword before refurbishment (another story in itself). As such it would span the hollow of the thumb depression – a weakness which may have been corrected in subsequent swords.

Hope all this is of interest. I’d be grateful for comments or further information.

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## Wayne Zieschang

John, you seem to have hit dumpbucket's limit and all your photos are now the dread "disabled" pic.

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## Will Mathieson

3rd party hosting= hold your photos ransom until you pay up.

I use "manage attachments" and choose photos directly from my computer, this way no problem exists.

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## J.G. Hopkins

I apologize for derailing this further, but photobucket recently made some changes and 3rd party hosting now costs $400 per year. I suggest finding a different photo hosting site.

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## John Sheard

Hi Will,

Thanks for the advice. I've used JPEG Optimizer to compress the files so hopefully I have successfully attached direct from my computer. If so I'll be well pleased to say goodbye to Photobucket.

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## Will Mathieson

John great to see you no longer rely on photo sites as most did previously including myself. I'm sure all my older posts using Photobucket have lost their photos.

I agree the grip wire likely wrapped for the whole length of the grip. I find no hole to secure ends of the wire midway in the grip. The grip groove angles under the ferrel at the guard where the wire would have been secured.

F.W. Bevile is still as mysterious as these sword types. Others and myself have come up empty.

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## Magnus K

> Super sword Will, but your man's a mystery, found a few Beville's in Hart's 1910/11, but not that spelling, and struggling to see FWB on the blade pics posted elsewhere. Perhaps FW was not the officer concerned but a rich sponsor or relative, given that there is no specific regiment given under his name on the register.....good luck!


Maybe it's futile to put too much emphasis on spelling? Perhaps the clerk just made a mistake when doing the entry in the ledger?

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## Will Mathieson

I've tried different spellings of the surname but no luck. I've guessed at and googled given names too. Possibly later rather than sooner the mystery may be solved. 
You would think there would be a computer program that could run the possibilities?

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## gordon byrne

Hi John,

Just looking at these images, and the hilt you illustrate, it appears to be a cavalry scroll guard with the crown etc., worked into the top of the guard. Any chance of seeing an image of the guard looking straight along the blade at the front of the basket?

Would also be grateful to know, what the finish on that hilt, what length is the blade, and who sold the sword?

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## L. Braden

Major Francis Granville Beville was related to Dr. F.W. Beville, if that means anything.

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## John Sheard

Hi Will

 Just wondered whether you might have tried the Sandhurst Archive with regard to Bevile. I've had two swords now which were purchased by cadets who assumed they were about to join a particular regiment only to find they were finally commissioned into a different one. For example, H A Lafone puchases a 5th Dragoon Guards sword but finds himself commissioned as Lieutenant in the 3rd Dragoon Guards. Might Bevile have gone through Sandhurst, bought his sword but never been commissioned? After all, I seem to remember often changing my mind at an early age! I think you can find the archive by googling archive.sandhurstcollection.

Gordon

 The blade length is 38in, quite a sword for a little fellow. Possibly a cavalry version of the 1892/1895 Infantry Officer's sword. The finish? Well that's quite a lengthy story. 
Basically it was found in a garden shed it a very decayed condition, having remained there for about 50 years. The previous owner rescued it in 2014. Professional advice was that if it was to be preserved for the future then a major refurb was required. This was done preserving as much as possible (blade, guard, fishskin) and using the original Wilkinson patterns which were still in existence. It is possible (likely) that the sword is the earliest example of this 'pattern' and may have significance in the later development of the 1908 regulation pattern. The provenance, family history, military record and later involvement with the intelligence world are documented. Imbert-Terry's relationship with Douglas Haig (also 7th Hussars) is an interesting area of research.

Hope this is of general interest, I'll post more photographs asap.

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## Will Mathieson

Thanks John I'll look into that. One thing that I find odd is the blade has no royal cypher or regimental designation.

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## gordon byrne

Hi John,

Thanks for the information, and as you say quite a sword with a blade that length; when I first looked at the picture, the immediate impression I gained was that it looked like an 1892 pattern blade or similar.

Am I correct if I assume that the frosted appearance of the decorative part of the guard is original, as are with the plain polished edges? or is this appearance the result of rust pitting?

Second assumption is that your reference to *2nd Type Honeysuckle guard*, is describing the 1821 Pattern undress, originally prescribed for Heavy Cavalry?

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## L. Braden

No, there was no Bevile or Beville at Sandhurst at the time in question. As for F. G. Beville, he is listed as Francis Beville - 1885-6 - Cadet. If he's the one, then the sword might have been F. W. Beville's gift upon his receiving the CIE in 1908 (but I doubt it) or for some other reason. In any case, there was no commissioned or uncommissioned or reassigned Bevile or Beville in 1910 or thereabouts.
However, Maj. Harry Gilbert Peyton Beville retired from the Indian Army in Nov. 1909. Was it customary to present a retired officer with a sword? If so, too late in this case for a retirement dinner. 
By the way, don't assume that a cavalry officer owned this sword. Many infantry officers preferred cavalry swords or hybrids combining elements from both infantry and cavalry.

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## Will Mathieson

Thanks for the info it does rule out some things. Infantry? Of course there were mounted infantry and post Boer War possibly more so. The guard is the same pattern as the engineers, another possibility. Strange the name doesn't come up in 1910 and no cypher on the blade. 
Could it be for an officer from another country who visited Britain, a Frenchman or?

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## L. Braden

Glad to help! Hope you can solve this mystery. Could be that FWB ordered it for someone unrelated, or could be any of the possibilities that you mentioned.

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## Wayne Zieschang

Did European sword making companies ever make "frankenswords", maybe using a blade, guard, hilt from different types of swords to show a variety of options and/or assembly techniques?  

Did they ever use up leftover parts, say like use a previous model/pattern guard on a newer model blade?

I've been lead to understand that in the post-CW era a customer could "mix n match" from catalogs based on what they wanted.

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## L. Braden

Will - I don't what you might have discovered about FWB, but here's what I've found:
In 1910, Frederick Wells Beville was a physician and surgeon in Bath.
I checked all other spellings of the last name, and that's all there was. No "Bevile", etc. Still don't know if he ordered the sword for himself or someone else, if he's the FWB on the Wilkinson form.
Good luck, and best regards!

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## Will Mathieson

I didn't look much into the physician only because this Beville was one. The intertwined initials are FWB. There must have been other Wilkinson records to swords other then the blade proof page since the page does not describe the blade etching or the initials. 
It would be odd to order a sword for someone else and have your own initials on the blade.
As I've found with the internet not everything is online, in time possibly something that leads to an answer will show up in a search. 
I'm told for my other sword of the Yokohama Mounted Volunteers that the English Japanese papers of the time are not online which prevents research unless you have physical access to them.

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## John Sheard

Hi Gordon,

Yes, post 1896 the Hussar regiments would of course be normally using the 1821 HC pattern (Richard Dellar refers to this as 2nd honeysuckle). Imbert-Terry was about to depart for India in 1893 and presumably saw the advantage of having a scroll hilt rather than the 1821 LC three bar. What caused him to also reject the normal blade and go for what appears to be a cavalry version of the 1892 thrusting blade remains a mystery, unless there is a strong Haig connection. Unfortunately information on the Haig sword is difficult to source. Attached photographs show Imbert-Terry's sword to have the more symetrical scroll guard (when compared with the 1821HC) but with the crown and 7th Hussars insignia substituted at the front.

Whilst work on the sword was extensive, the blade, guard, grip, ferrule and pommel are original Wilkinson. Only the grip wire, leather scabbard and leather finger loop were beyond saving. The wooden scabbard liners were intact and had prevented rust pitting of the blade which was however deeply stained (it was re-polished and re-etched using the original patterns). The guard was so severely pitted that rust removal was not possible. It was accordingly treated and surfaced (in order to retain what remained of the acanthus engraving) resulting in the frosted appearance. The outer rim contained no engraving and so was polished smooth.

Dimensions might be usefully compared with those of Will's sword:
              Blade length  38ins.   Fuller extends 16ins. from the guard.  'Cutting' edge 22ins from the point.  Back edge could be sharpened to 4.5ins. from the point.  Grip length 
              5.5ins. Width at ricasso 28mm x 7mm.

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## L. Braden

Sorry - I forgot that the initials had been definitely identified, or I would not have said that he might have ordered it for somebody else. Anyway, it's my opinion that the physician was a fencer and ordered the sword for that purpose. I don't know about today, but in those days physicians as well as clergymen were fencers. Fencing had become a fad sport or form of exercise for one and all.

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## L. Braden

Yes, they used real swords, with or without protective gear. Foils were for "sissies".

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## Will Mathieson

The sword is the length of a cavalry sword and designed for thrusting, fencing use I'm not so sure it would be practical for the sport? 
They did make the 1911 pattern for practice that had a very slim springy blade and bowl guard with an aluminum checkered 1908p grip. 
I can't see it as a fencing sword with etching for 3/4 of the blade length but stranger has been true.

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## gordon byrne

John,

Many thanks, that's really interesting stuff, and really good to see some other angles of the guard detail; not only is the blade quite long, but also the grip; overall a very rare sword. Given what you started with, the sword presents quite well.

Do you have any more specific information of the other examples you mention with the Honeysuckle hilts? Such as blade type and length.?

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## Will Mathieson

Hello John who did the work on your sword,  amazing results? 38" is considered a long blade.

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## gordon byrne

John,

The other question I have, is do you know if the Honeysuckle types with the 7th Hussars grip, had the QO monogram in the hilt, or are they just the plain hilt as per pattern, but stretched for the longer grip?

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## L. Braden

Fencing was done with cavalry-length swords as well as ordinary sabres.
All online army lists and other official records for 1910 and thereabouts are complete, and there is no FWBevile/Beville/Bevil, etc. That leaves only civilians, as is the case with the Yokohama Volunteers sword. A number of us prefer to have a soldier's weapon rather than a civilian's, but sometimes we have to settle for what we can get or can afford to get.

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## Will Mathieson

In my case this sword was a great opportunity to get a special order Wilkinson.  The Yokohama sword was handed to me on a silver platter since the winning bidder for whatever reason declined.
More on fencing the blade weight is not in line with a fencing sword (ones I've seen). The grip style lends it to thrusting as a 1908p does. Having the leather finger loop is another feature.
No contact marks on the blade so it wasn't used as a fencer.

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## L. Braden

Then what was the sword used for, if not fencing? Combat? According to records, no military person ordered it. A real mystery!

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## Will Mathieson

That's just it it does not appear "used" with its excellent etching intact etc. but many swords appear "unused" especially these later ones.

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## L. Braden

What about fraternal orders and the like? Did all of them issue their own swords or could you order your own? I had one for the Knights of Pithias; but that was many years ago, and I don't recall any details except that it was straight-bladed.

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## L. Braden

See "Knights of Pithias" on Wikipedia, which answers my question re them. But what of other organizations?

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## Will Mathieson

Any fraternal swords I've seen are small, light and ornate and could barely be used for protection. Price also a consideration being much less than a proved Wilkinson.

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## L. Braden

Mystery remains.

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## Will Mathieson

Sure does. But something answered too easily is not as rewarding.

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## Will Mathieson

No closer I'm afraid with Charles Francis Beville, a reserve officer who became major in the Gloucestershire regt in 18 Oct 1902

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## John Sheard

Hi Will

The work was done by Crisp and Sons, East Sussex, UK. They apparently have (or had) close connections with the Wilkinson Sword Company. They also recovered the leather scabbard using the original wooden linings and chape (which was extremely corroded).



Gordon - Blades I am aware of are:  Imbert-Terry 38ins: Laycock 37ins (The Swordsman, Winter 2001): Harrison 36ins and double fullered (see Richard Dellar pages 164/165):
Beville 35ins Toledo. I have no information on the Haig blade but that is the next task.

The honeysuckle and scroll types (other than the Imbert-Terry sword) which I am aware of do not incorporate the QO 7th Hussars monogram. Again the Haig sword is unclear to me (both from existing photographs and his Edinburgh statue) but I suspect a stretched Honeysuckle guard without the monogram.

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## Matt Easton

On the use of the 1892 type blade, please see my article here:
http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/antiqu...les/1892-1897/

The new blade was seen as revolutionary and of course was used in cavalry sword size for the City of London Yeomanry swords in this format. For someone wanting a thrusting sword the 1892 blade scaled up to cavalry size is a perfectly good option.

This is certainly not a fencing sword! Fencing swords have to be blunt at the very least and this sword would simply impale a training partner! Service swords were sometimes used for practice, but they were blunted for that - just like this 1885 with its rounded tip:
http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/antiqu...r-sale/1885-3/

For FWB, have the yeomanry lists been scoured? What about mounted infantry (popular in the later stages of the Boer War)?

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## gordon byrne

Hi John,

Thanks for the additional info, very useful.

Considering what you started with, the result is quite good. Do you know the date perimeters of Crisp & Sons involvement with Wilkinson?

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## L. Braden

We don't know the history of that 1910 sword - how many people might have used it and for what purposes. For all we know, it could have been blunt at one time and later sharpened. Also, it's a false assumption that sharp swords were never used for fencing. There are literally hundreds of accounts and notices of students fencing with sharp swords at German universities, and being proud of their scars; e.g., "every other student whom you meet at Berlin or any other German University has a more or less lacerated face, of which he feels very proud." (Medical and Surgical Reporter, Jan. 19, 1889.) And not to be sissified by the Germans, some students at Oxford and Cambridge engaged in such a "blood sport". Moreover, Burton (for one) had numerous scars on his body, and he didn't get them in any battles; he got them from sabre-fencing, and was quite proud of them as "red badges of courage".

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## Ben Bevan

Will, don't know whether you've found this chap, Cornet Hamilton Charles Beville (two L's) promoted Lieutenant in the 7th Hussars 1867, albeit 43 years before your sword, but possibly a family connection?

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## L. Braden

P.S. These accounts and notices weren't referring to student DUELS; they were referring to student FENCING. "Fencing at German universities remained a violent and bloody exercise into the twentieth century" (The Martial Ethic in Early Modern Germany); "everything is well protected except the cheeks, and people say the more slashes a student can show, the prouder he can be" (Nadi on Fencing), etc. etc.

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## John Sheard

What a coincidence. Came up with the same reference as Ben earlier today. Wrong date for Will's man but the combination of a close surname (the register could easily be inaccurate) and the use of the '7th hussars hilts' leaves me suspecting a family connection. Added to this, Hart's 1866 shows the following for the 7th Hussars.:

Alfred Hutton     Lieutenant by purchase Jan 1862 (the famous fencer and member of the 1906 Committee which eventually delivered the 1908 Pattern)

J Gaspard W Le Marchant     Captain by purchase Aug 1865 (surely a descendant of Major General John Gaspard Le Marchant, once Lt. Colonel of the 7th Hussars and son of John Gaspard Le Marchant, Lieutenant 7th Dragoons)

Also, of course, Field Marshall Douglas Haig (member of the 1903 Committee which first initiated the future development of the 1908 Pattern (also 7th Hussars).

Maybe wishful thinking, but there seems to be a tenuous link between the 7th Hussars, the 7th Hussars grip (and maybe hilt), the development of the 1908 pattern and officers who had a particular interest in sword design and combat. 

Anyway, good luck Will. I'm sure many more clues must emerge.

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## Will Mathieson

Ben interesting info, hopefully it may linkup to later Bevilles. 
To answer Bradens assumption about blade sharpening/altering. The blade appears original in its unsharpened form with original polish to the blade. No grinding/filing or loss of polish is seen that would indicate any alteration.

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## Matt Easton

> We don't know the history of that 1910 sword - how many people might have used it and for what purposes. For all we know, it could have been blunt at one time and later sharpened. Also, it's a false assumption that sharp swords were never used for fencing. There are literally hundreds of accounts and notices of students fencing with sharp swords at German universities, and being proud of their scars; e.g., "every other student whom you meet at Berlin or any other German University has a more or less lacerated face, of which he feels very proud." (Medical and Surgical Reporter, Jan. 19, 1889.) And not to be sissified by the Germans, some students at Oxford and Cambridge engaged in such a "blood sport". Moreover, Burton (for one) had numerous scars on his body, and he didn't get them in any battles; he got them from sabre-fencing, and was quite proud of them as "red badges of courage".


The schlager used for the mensurefechten is a very narrow-bladed implement and in the mensuren they wear head to foot protection that only exposes parts of the head and face. They are not allowed to thrust. They do not use pointed cavalry swords to run each other though the body with  :Big Grin:

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## Matt Easton

For the record, duels were also conducted with sharp sabres in Italy and Hungary, however again these were sharp-edged but very light dueling swords, not cavalry swords. In Italy the sabres were not sharpened at the tip and they were not allowed to thrust. 
In this case we're looking at a sharp thrust-centric and pointed cavalry sword, not a dueling sabre or an epee de combat for the duel.

So while it is true to state that sharp swords were used for duels and occasionally for certain types of fencing, this is not one of those swords. It's a cavalry sword which shows no signs of having been used for fencing (fencing swords get covered in scars within one match).

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## L. Braden

Will says that the blade is unsharpened, and Matt says that it's sharpened! So which is it? In any case, solving this mystery may be impossible.

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## L. Braden

P.S. If the blade is unsharpened and shows no sign of wear, then either it wasn't used as intended or it was intended as a dress sword. The fancywork on the blade suggests a dress sword. But dress for what and for whom? If Dr. Beville was the owner, I can find no connection with the military, since military surgeons were usually armed. But there may have been another connection. However, is it absolutely certain that the initials are FWB rather than FGB? I previously mentioned Maj. F. G. Beville of the Indian Army, who was active in 1910; and oddly enough, in an earlier source, he is mentioned as "Captain F. W. Beville"! I can't see mistaking a G for a W; but who knows? Also, I can't find that FGB was also FWGB or FGWB. Phew!

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## Matt Easton

> Will says that the blade is unsharpened, and Matt says that it's sharpened! So which is it? In any case, solving this mystery may be impossible.


It is unsharpened on the edge, but it has a point. You can't fence with a sword that has a point without running the fencing partner through - even unsharpened swords are pointy enough to stab someone  :Smilie: 
Fencing swords have rounded or nail-head ends and the sharp swords used for duels were schlagers or epees de combat rather than cavalry swords.

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## Matt Easton

> The fancywork on the blade suggests a dress sword.


This is a common misconception actually - normal officers' fighting swords were usually etched on their blades and most officers did not have separate 'dress' and 'fighting' swords. They just had one sword which fulfilled both functions. Piquet (light) weight swords intended primarily for parade were sometimes ordered as dress swords, to be more comfortable to wear, but this is a full weight fighting sword.




> I previously mentioned Maj. F. G. Beville of the Indian Army, who was active in 1910; and oddly enough, in an earlier source, he is mentioned as "Captain F. W. Beville"! I can't see mistaking a G for a W; but who knows? Also, I can't find that FGB was also FWGB or FGWB. Phew!


This Beville seems like a very good lead to me! I am also unconvinced that the initials are FWB and Wilkinson records are sometimes inaccurate in spelling unfortunately.

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## Ben Bevan

Just found a (possibly) different Captain F W Beville, noted in 1896 as the Political Agent and Consul in Muscat, Oman, so a military man working in a civilian capacity. Still find it odd that the 'Regiment' space on the ledger is blank...

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## james.elstob

I struggled with the initials at first so I got my crayons out.

Is this what people are seeing?

*F*
*W*
*B*

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## Will Mathieson

James that's what we see for his initials. Matt you are correct the sword though unsharpened has a very capable point for thrusting.

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## L. Braden

> Just found a (possibly) different Captain F W Beville, noted in 1896 as the Political Agent and Consul in Muscat, Oman, so a military man working in a civilian capacity. Still find it odd that the 'Regiment' space on the ledger is blank...


As I said before, he is the same as "Captain F. G. Beville". The W is a misprint in this unofficial source. Here is one of several official sources: Administration Report on the Persian Gulf Political Residency, 1898: "Captain F. G. Beville had charge of the office of Political Agent and Consul" and "Maskat Trade Report for the Year 1896-97 written by Captain Francis Granville Beville, Political Agent."

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## L. Braden

If all of you are absolutely certain that the initials are FWB, then (unless the record entry is totally incorrect) there is only one person who could have ordered that sword, and that's Frederick Wells Beville, because there was no other FWBevile/Bevil/Bevill/Beville in or out of the service at that time; and so I'll leave it to you either to figure out why he would have ordered such a sword or to determine who really did order that sword if the record is inaccurate.

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## L. Braden

Correction: "If SOME of you ..."

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## John Sheard

Having now visited Edinburgh Castle (well worth a visit – superb sword collections), I can confirm that the hilt of the sword carried by Douglas Haig, as depicted on his famous statue, is quite definitely the Special Pattern of the 7th Queen’s Own Hussars containing their regimental insignia. It has neither a Scroll Guard nor the ‘Extended 2nd Honeysuckle Guard’ as often claimed. Since the statue appears to be accurate in every detail, it is inconceivable that the sword displayed is anything other than a true depiction of that which Haig actually carried.

The statue was erected in 1923 so there is no definite proof that this Special Pattern is that which he used as a serving officer in the 7th (1885 to 1901) but this seems very probable.  Certainly he would have worn it at later ceremonial occasions.

Since the sword of Captain Alexander Frederic Aime Imbert-Terry (7th Hussars) is confirmed as being of ‘special pattern’, there are now two swords of this design and hopefully a number of others as yet unknown.
When Imbert-Terry joined the regiment as 2nd Lieutenant in 1893, Haig was already Captain and it might be that a Special Pattern was already in existence at that point.
As indicated in an earlier post, other examples are known to have copied the 7th Hussars grip (and possibly blade) but these use the more conventional 2nd Honeysuckle or Scroll guards.

Both Esme Stuart Erskine Harrison (11th Hussars) and Chas James Briggs (1st Dragoon Guards) served in either India or South Africa and it would appear that 7th Hussars style grips and purely thrusting blades were popular with officers likely to see action. There must be more examples around, if not to the 7th Hussars then to other like minded regiments.

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## gordon byrne

Hi John,

The detail in the statue is fantastic, and surely confirms the type of hilt, and the existence of more than one sword with this special hilt and type of blade.

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## Ben Bevan

As said, superb detail, but no scabbard supporter attached to the frog stud, surely improperly dressed Field -Marshal, what what!

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## Will Mathieson

John thank-you for posting the photos of Haigs" statue, much appreciated. I see it was well worthwhile having your sword refinished and for future generations to enjoy.
I plan on Visiting Scotland in two years hopefully, would love to see the statue and many castles, museums, regimental and others. 
I have no idea where to start but would like to rent a small car if it's feasible? I've never been to my ancestors home, my great grandfather came to Canada in the 1850's if memory serves me. Grandfather in the 48th Highlanders (Toronto) from 1902-1908 or 9. Luckily bought a 48th marked sergeants sword marked 48/1 on the inner guard, the 1897p with 1892 plain blade with insp. marks. He could well have worn it being a sergt himself.

To get back on topic has anyone found a connection between sword owners with this pattern of sword?

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## John Sheard

Hi Will, Don't wait 2 years. Edinburgh castle is an essential visit. The castle, museums, sword collections etc. etc. are not to be missed and well worth the effort. If you come in summer be sure to pre book your entrance ticket on line and so avoid the 45 minutes delay at the gate. As a sword and militaria collector allow at least half a day.  The history of the 7th Hussars style swords is a work in progress. So few of these swords have so far emerged that connections between owners are far from obvious. A few things might be relevant; Imbert-Terry, Haig, Briggs and Harrison were all officers who had seen real action in South Africa with the 7th Hussars, 1st Dragoon Guards, 6th Dragoons and 11th Hussars. I can only assume that that their experiences led to a mutual conviction of the effectiveness of a purely thrusting cavalry weapon, both in terms of hilt and blade design. How this was communicated between regiments and informed opinion at that time  I can only guess. However it was clearly common and in existence at least as early as 1893 and well before it was formally considered in the Committees of 1903 and 1906. Imbert-Terry and Haig were both 7th Hussars. They don't seem to have served together but the the idea of a future 1908/1912 Pattern must have been common in the regiment. Imbert-Terry and Harrison were both involved with military intelligence (not at the same time but who knows what threads exist there?). We can only hope that more will emerge, but what seems evident to me is that the adoption of the 1908/1912 Patterns was the response to a groundswell of opinion from serving officers whose lives had been on the line  and not simply a top down imposition from committee. That said, there was plenty of experience on those committees from the likes of Fox, Scobel and Hutton among others.

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## Will Mathieson

I'm sure the officers you mention John would know each other well. With travel then being horse or train, more time was spent being a guest at a regiment.  
I find it amazing how connected officers were within their families. Many of their sons, daughters married into other army families. Possibly more so with regiments in India. 
I find researching swords of officers you find these connections to the very top army leaders of the day. Formal mess dinners etc. brought them together, their social lives within the army being much more important.
All their interactions were face to face, not online like today. It's becoming hard to imagine just what life was like in those times.

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## John Sheard

Having just seen the explanation to the post "Where did the 2-10 November threads go to", I thought I would repost number 70 (happened to have a hard copy, never did trust the internet) in order to keep this thread alive.

"I've come up with another probable family connection with respect to Douglas Haig and Alexander Frederick Aime Imbert- Terry. Haig's father, John Haig, owned Haig and Haig Whiskey Distillery (makers of a well known scotch). The 1914 Census shows Alexander and his father listed as Distillers at Aston house. Also Alexander was given Freedom of the City of London in The Company of Distillers in 1898 (despite  the fact that he had been out of the country for several years with his regiment). He was still listed as the Master of the Worshipful Company of Distillers for 1918. All very strange since there is no reference to distillers in the family history, the family sold Aston House in 1912 and Alexander was disinherited by his father in 1912! Both Alexander and his famous son Antony were involved with Intelligence (Antony in particular with MI5) and this might explain anomalies in official records.

Another query - Robert Wilkinson-Latham makes reference to a Wilkinson 'G Grip' in a post way back in 1908 when discussing the 7th Hussar Pattern but can offer no explanation. Could this actually be a reference to 'gryphonite', a material used for the early 1908 patterns and later replaced by 'dermatine'? (Dellar p. 172)."

There is a further reference in Robert's 'Wilkinson Sword Patterns & Blade Rubs' with a picture of a 'Full regimental 2nd Dragoons - G grip Special 1910' showing the 7th Hussars style special grip. (Many thanks to Pooley Swords for their excellent service in supplying the book). Also the Wilkinson record for Major Harrison's 11th Hussars sword refers to the G Grip.

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## John Sheard

It seems the 'gryphonite' reference is unlikely. I've now seen the Wilkinson register for Sword No. 39635 (to Col. C J Briggs, another of the known 7th Hussars type grips) where the blade is also described as a 'G Blade'. Could be a clerical error?

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## gordon byrne

> It seems the 'gryphonite' reference is unlikely. I've now seen the Wilkinson register for Sword No. 39635 (to Col. C J Briggs, another of the known 7th Hussars type grips) where the blade is also described as a 'G Blade'. Could be a clerical error?


Hi John,

Do you have a copy of the proof information?

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## John Sheard

Hi Gordon,

 Pretty sparse but this is what I have. If it's not clear, the description reads "G Blade, 7th Hussars Hilt (strictly speaking this ought to have been recorded as 7th Hussars Grip and pommel with extended 1896 Pattern Honeysuckle Guard), name and mark".

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## John Sheard

Hi Gordon,

More information recently come to light following search of the Wilkinson Proof Records.

32534  Lt. Fielden, 7th Hussars  "German Grip";  32981  No name, 7th Hussars  "German Patt. Grip";  35475  Capt. Badan, 21st Lancers  "German Grip";  35762  Col. Martin, 21st Lancers  "German Grip";  38642  Maj. Harrison,11th Hussars?  "G Grip";  39635  Col. Briggs, Kings Dragoon Guards  "G Blade".

I now have the Harrison sword in my collection (ex John Hart). The blade is bi-fullered as is that of Col. Briggs, from photographic evidence. The "G Blade" reference now makes sense since Wilkinsons were evidently using the "G" as shorthand for German for both grip and blade.

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## gordon byrne

Hi John,

The plot thickens! I must say I have no explanation for "German Grip" (or blade for that matter) in terms of "style". Do you have an explanation? I do seem to have a vague impression that some European hilts (possibly German) do have a leather finger loop on the hilt. Just a pity Wilkinson didn't have a code book to decipher the abbreviated proof page notes.

Regards,

Gordon

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## John Sheard

Hi Gordon,

There was a thread on the forum started by Richard D Wales (Experimental German Cavalry Sabre) in August 2016 which has a drawing and photographs of German grips and blades, circa 1880, complete with finger loop. Very similar to those adopted for the 7th Hussars 'Special' Grips in question.

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## Will Mathieson

Beville sword showing location of grip wire anchor location. In the 8th groove counting from the guard the round wooden peg retaining the grip wire is seen. It is placed on top where the indentation for the wire ceases to create the thumb indent. The grip wire on this sword never covered the thumb indent.

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## Matt Easton

In my opinion German grip refers to the leather finger loop, thumb placer and swollen end - this was absolutely typical of mensur schlager grips and I have a German officer's sword dating to before 1883 which emulates it.

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## Ben Bevan

Just noticed that MDL has recently put up the J.F.Laycock example.

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## Will Mathieson

The Laycock sword is very interesting in itself and I see the scabbard drag is equal length on each side. I have an 1855 Wilkinson CG sword with the same treatment to the drag.
I mention this because most drags have one arm longer than the other.

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## John Sheard

This thread was initially started by Will in 2017 with respect to a special pattern sword he had recently acquired. To summarize the details:
1 inch wide Toledo blade, absence of royal cypher and regimental marking, extensive repetitive decoration to both sides of blade, a very complex monogram (which was generally accepted as FWB in agreement with F W Bevile entered in the Wilkinson proof record), scroll guard and ‘pistol’ grip with leather finger loop. The grip and finger loop are of a type adopted by some officers of the 7th Hussars. 
Excellent condition with no indication of active military or civilian use (unsharpened).
The only FWB which has come to light is Frederick Wells Beville, a civilian physician and surgeon resident in the city of Bath, County of Somerset, with no recorded military connections.
There remains some question as to the interpretation of the monogram. If it is accepted as FWB there remains the possibility that there was confusion on the part of Wilkinsons between the order name and that of the swords intended future owner. 
The sword has now found a home in my collection but despite the best efforts of Will and myself the original owner remains a mystery. 
We now enter the realms of wishful thinking! The pristine condition of the sword, its lack of military and royal marking and its obvious design as a fighting cavalry weapon might suggest that the sword was ordered by F W Beville on behalf of a serving officer in the Indian Army (hence scroll guard) to  be used only for ceremonial purposes.
Lieutenant Colonel Francis Granville Beville CIE fits the bill perfectly.
Indian Staff Corps; Promoted Major 1904 and Lt. Colonel 1912; Civilian occupation from 1895 whilst retaining military rank; Permanent Civil Employ from 1900; Political Agent Central India from 1909; Delhi Durbar 1911 (sword proof date 1910); official visits to Indian States 1920; retired Lt. Col. 1922 and returned to Bicknoller, Somerset where he died the following year (about 40 miles from BATH).
Frederick Wells Beville was in residence at Bath in 1911 and remained there until his death in 1944. Unfortunately I have been unable to establish a family connection with FGB. The sword came through auction in the neighbouring county of Dorset. The proximity of Bicknoller, Bath and Dorset may of course be coincidental.
This sword and that of Joe Laycock are referred to in my article published by the Royal Armouries, Leeds, an updated version of which is available using the link below. 
https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/T...4.2021.1886746
The Laycock sword has since joined my collection and minor changes to the article will be required.

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