# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  1812 era saber?

## bobf

I found this cleaning out a house in Mass. When checking online for clues I found a similar one which stated it might be a relic from the War of 1812 time period. Any help would be appreciated as to value, American or British and how should I deal with the rust and corrosion.

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## Eric Fairbanks

Bob, if it is under 32 inches it is an infantry officer sword, if over a Calvary or mounted artillery officer model. It is a fairly standard P guard federal period sword. 1807 to 1840 with the majority made 1805 till 1825. Your grip looks like bone so would not be pre 1807. Many were mammoth ivory up until 1807 then bone till 1820 or 21 when a few were made from whale ivory. According to Tench Cox it is german style but most appear to be a direct copy of the British 1796 light calvary saber. If you will look in sticky threads at top you will find one on sword care. If you google reverse p saber or federal period officer sword you should be able to find a value but is relative to condition. Post better photos and measurements. Eric

These were made by the British and the Germans in Solingen for the American market. The etching on your blade will tell the story. There were a few perhaps made in the Americas.

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## bobf

Thanks for the info.  I took some more pictures hopefully someone can give me more information with some pics of the etchings. The etchings are kinda of faint and there was some gold left which made me think all of the etchings were gold at one time.  The length of the saber is 35 inches which makes it a calvary sword thanks Eric. There is no scabbard. The etchings appear to be of floral designs overall but one looks like a flying saucer to me but may be a representation of a cannon?

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## Glen C.

The UFO would be a drum or round/oval shield.  When you mention 35", if tht is overall, not meant for cavalry.  If it is a 35" blade + the hilt, that would be a very long sword and likely cavalry or mounted artillery.  As regulations were not really hard and fast, with swords of this type private purchase, there really isn't any way to be sure without direct provenance. 

Post 1812 war, in my opinion. With the mixed etch types, more likely British made and easily as late as the 1830s-1840s.  Again, just my opinion.  This type of dual etch would be panels with deep etching covered in silver between sections of blue&gilt.

Please show an overall shot of the entire sword.

Cheers

Hotspur; _these blades are much lighter and narrower than a 1796_

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## bobf

The 35 inches was total length,

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## Dennis M Loyer

> I found this cleaning out a house in Mass. When checking online for clues I found a similar one which stated it might be a relic from the War of 1812 time period. Any help would be appreciated as to value, American or British and how should I deal with the rust and corrosion.


There is a exact twin to this sword in a local museum.  That particular sword was taken from an American officer in a local battle in the war of 1812.

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## Glen C.

> There is a exact twin to this sword in a local museum.  That particular sword was taken from an American officer in a local battle in the war of 1812.


Not doubting your seeing a similar sword but are you sure the sword in the museum had both needle etching and the deep white etching panels like this?



Would you happen to remember the Officer's name and the battle?

Thanks in advance.

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## Dennis M Loyer

> Not doubting your seeing a similar sword but are you sure the sword in the museum had both needle etching and the deep white etching panels like this?
> 
> 
> 
> Would you happen to remember the Officer's name and the battle?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


The sword handle was the same and blade shape; not sure about the etching and panels.

There were many 1812 skirmishes up and down the Thames River....some we won, some the Americans won.

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## Eric Fairbanks

It would be very interesting to see a double etched blade that could be specifically dated. I have not been able to get south of 1830 or therebouts. And Dennis we won otherwise we would be speaking Canadian, eh. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Glen C.

> The sword handle was the same and blade shape; not sure about the etching and panels.
> 
> There were many 1812 skirmishes up and down the Thames River....some we won, some the Americans won.



Thanks Dennis

The thing is that the overall theme went for forty or more years.

If it was a captured sword, unless there was little care for it, the blade finish would still be quite apparent.  If you remember the name of the museum, we may be able to figure out the officer's name with some searching.  Then it goes to how the sword ended up in the museum and what its life was like until donation.

Swords of this general type can be often seen on Ebay and dealer sites but the double etch types not as common as the more plain.

Cheers

Hotspur; _let me see if I have one in my files that might jog your memory_

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## Dennis M Loyer

> It would be very interesting to see a double etched blade that could be specifically dated. I have not been able to get south of 1830 or therebouts. And Dennis we won otherwise we would be speaking Canadian, eh.


Eric, please check your history books.  The war of 1812 ended with a peace treaty in Europe  (not a surrender) where both parties agreed to stop fighting.  The territory I live in (south-western Ontario) would have been American if you had won.  We would never tolerate Donald Trump ruling us.

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## Richard Schenk

> It would be very interesting to see a double etched blade that could be specifically dated. I have not been able to get south of 1830 or therebouts. And Dennis we won otherwise we would be speaking Canadian, eh.


This is an issue on which I'd really like to see more definitive information - when did double-etched blades first occur?  That info would really help in dating some swords.  I have, for example, an urn-pommel five ball-hilted saber which I would probably date to the War of 1812 or shortly thereafter except for the fact it has B&G alternating with white-etched panels.  It would seem the design would be quite anachronistic by the 1830s, but if that's the earliest dates for this type etching...

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## Eric Fairbanks

Bob here is a British screamer and if the common concensus is correct that it is a copy of Ames Screamer as Nathan said it has to be post 1834 as Ames could not have produced theirs before 1832-34. This does not prove your sword or Richards is not War of 1812 but is pretty convincing evidence these double etch swords were being made in the 1832 to 1840 time frame. In fairness may dispute the late date for the British screaming eagles. I have seen them with early blades and late hilts and late blades and early hilts but have only seen a couple with both and thought both composites. I have not paid attention to them as I should as many have the double etch. I have never seen one I could date with confidence to War of 1812. Perhaps others have better and more complete infornation. Eric

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## Richard Schenk

]


> Bob here is a British screamer and if the common concensus is correct that it is a copy of Ames Screamer as Nathan said it has to be post 1834 as Ames could not have produced theirs before 1832-34. This does not prove your sword or Richards is not War of 1812 but is pretty convincing evidence these double etch swords were being made in the 1832 to 1840 time frame. In fairness may dispute the late date for the British screaming eagles. I have seen them with early blades and late hilts and late blades and early hilts but have only seen a couple with both and thought both composites. I have not paid attention to them as I should as many have the double etch. I have never seen one I could date with confidence to War of 1812. Perhaps others have better and more complete infornation. Eric


I didn't mean to imply my dual-etched sword was War of 1812 - I doubt it is - but rather to suggest a possibly earlier start date for this style blade decoration than the 1830s.

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## Eric Fairbanks

Richard, your urn pommel was a style in my mind that went out of style long before the War of 1812. It has been my opinion and I will state that again"my opinion" that through the reuse of parts many are partially pre 1812. I believe the British screamers and other American swords are many times reused parts and or old stock with newer parts. I cannot get South of 1830 on the doubl etch blades and indeed believe most after 1834. I would love to hear others input as I have limited time working with these double etch blades. The double etch and the British screaming eagles are both time line confusing and deserve better documentation. My dating on my double etch relies heavily on Ames eagles being first, but most evidence I have seen puts Ames first. I have no clue the year they first started but feel certain they were made from 1834 to 1840. It is possible the blades are older and mounted on the British eagle after 1834. Eric

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