# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  Sword Knots

## George Wheeler

Gentlemen,

I collect sword accouterments in addition to the swords themselves and I thought I might start a thread on sword knots.  While long time sword collectors have knowledge of various sword knots, some visitors who read these pages may not.  

The sword knot began existence as a simple cord which was attached to the hilt of the sword of mounted soldiers.  It was securely fastened to the guard of the sabre and then tied to the wrist of the mounted trooper.  The purpose of this sword knot was to secure the sabre to the wrist, so that if it were knocked from the hand of the mounted soldier, he would not lose it in the heat of battle.  The sword would be at the end of the cord, which was tied to the wrist.  The design evolved into a double strap which was attached to the sword guard and wrapped around the hilt when not attached to the wrist.  The  double strap had at least one sliding loop, referred to as a slide, which was at the end of the strap to make a loop to go around the wrist.  At the end of the strap was either a stem or a crown, or both, which secured the end of the strap.  The knot itself generally consisted of a crown and an open tassel or closed ball which could securely close the end of the double strap to give the slide something solid to press the wrist against when it was inserted into the loop made by the strap.  This sword knot evolved into both dagger knots and bayonet knots in the German service and all three distinctive styles of German knots retain these design features.  More on these later.

First, let's look at the manner in which sword knots were used in the US military.  Plain leather knots were, generally speaking, first used in US service but differences soon emerged between enlisted and officer knots.  Early officer knots were often colored leather and then evolved into bullion or lace knots while enlisted knots remained plain utilitarian leather.  Around 1850 US officers were authorized to wear a gold bullion knot and this knot is still worn by US Navy officers on their Model 1852 Navy sword to this day.  This knot is shown on the left below.

US Army officers were authorized two new knots to wear on their 1902 Officer Sabre.  A gold wire knot with blue silk highlights was worn on dress occasions and is shown below next, L to R.  A russet leather knot with a plaited strap was authorized for general service wear.  This knot is shown next.  Both of these knots are still authorized when the Army Sword is worn and both have been US regulation since 1902.  The USMC officer sword is worn with a similar gold and red dress knot and a black leather plaited knot of the type worn by the Army in brown.

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## George Wheeler

German sword knots evolved into a complex system of knots that included knots that could be worn on bayonets and daggers as well as swords.  The construction was much the same as those of other countries and included the same parts.  The design was a double strap (das Band), a slide (der Scheiber), a stem where the strap entered the knot (der Stengel) and/or a crown (der Kranz), and an open tassel or a closed ball (die Quaste).  Knots in the German service could indicate rank and organization and a complex series of colored enlisted knots could indicate the wearer's unit down to the company level.  

There were three distinct styles of German knots:  

First, was the Portepee generally worn by officers and officials (Beamte).  This knot could indicate the individual state and the organization.  A Prussian Portepee is shown on the left and a Bavarian Portepee is shown next, (L to R).  

Second, was the Faustriemen generally worn by NCOs and enlisted men who were mounted or truckborn.  These Faustriemen were also worn by Air Force (Luftwaffe) personnel and Officials such as Customs (Zollschutz).  An example for an NCO is shown next.  

Third, was the Troddel generally worn by enlisted men on bayonets.  These colorful knots were made of cotton and/or wool and indicated the battalion and company of German Army enlisted man.  Green often indicated military enlisted men assigned to staff positions and all NCOs had green in thier knots indicating their status as staff members.  Examples are shown on the right.

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## David gray

Very interesting George, thanks for taking the time to write all that, got any more juicy tidbits, did the british knots use colours with any special meaning?

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## DanR

Good afternoon George,

Some old reading memories...the sword knot was also useful to avoid a non attached saber to hurt the charging horseman in the case he fell from his horse; and also, to free the saber the hand could not hold anymore after contact with the opponent.

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## George Wheeler

> Very interesting George, thanks for taking the time to write all that, got any more juicy tidbits, did the british knots use colours with any special meaning?


Hi David,

Yes, there certainly are differences in the styles and colors of British sword knots that fall somewhere in-between the relative simplicity of the US system and the astounding complexity of the German system.  Perhaps someone better versed in the British system than I am can comment and present some examples of these knots for us to examine.

In the meantime, here is an example of some of the various German bayonet knots from an identification page from a circa 1936 German Soldatenkalendar.

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## George Wheeler

> Good afternoon George,
> 
> Some old reading memories...the sword knot was also useful to avoid a non attached saber to hurt the charging horseman in the case he fell from his horse; and also, to free the saber the hand could not hold anymore after contact with the opponent.


Dan,

Thanks for pointing out other benefits derived from use of a sword knot.  Quite right!  Sword knots had a variety of uses and US Army manuals showed that sabre practice and execution of the sword drill was done with the sword knot firmly attached to the wrist of the soldier to get them in the habit of properly utilizing the knot.  

Another thing that I find interesting is the often complex methods of tying the knot to the sword hilt when it is not actually affixed to the wrist.  Some photos follow:

Japanese Police at attention with drawn swords during inspection.  I also have a photograph of these policemen before drawing their swords showing their white gloves placed between the straps of their sword knots while presenting their day books for inspection bare handed.  So the knot could also serve as a glove holder.  

A page from a prewar Reibert soldier's manual showing methods of tying German knots to edged weapons.  

A US Military Academy sword showing the method of attachment of the standard US service sword knot utilizing a buttoned tab (not always used in the US service).  

A 1902 US Army officer sword showing the same style brown leather sword knot attached without the use of the buttoned tab.  The knot straps were then simply wound around the D guard to the area of the branch and allowed to dangle free.  

The proper method of tie for the blue and silver bullion Bavarian Officer Portepee when attached to a Pallasch.

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## Mark Cloke

I have a page with the various British pattern knots on my site if anyone is interested.....

http://www.oldswords.com/resources/swordKnots.php

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## Mark McMorrow

George,

Great thread.  Expanding from your photo of Kempei, would it be possible for you to post photos of knots in use by various other countries?

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## George Wheeler

Mark C,  Excellent information on British sword knots.

Mark M, Let me see what other photos I have and/or can scan.

Everyone, please feel free to post other examples of sword knots or photos of knots in wear to expand on the subject.  Here are a few other examples:

First, circa 1933 Austrian knots in wear by an Austrian Police Sergeant on the left wearing a short sword and a Police Officer on the right wearing a long sword.  Notice the NCO knot has a closed ball while the Officer knot has a loose tassel ball.

Second, circa 1939 Austrian Gendarm wearing an officer style knot (Portepee).  This is a Senior NCO holding the rank of "Unteroffiziere mit Portepee" meaning that he had the right to wear an officer style knot because of his senior (Master Sergeant) rank.  

Third, an example of the correct tie for the Austrian sword knot.

Fourth, an example of an Austrian Cavalry knot.

Fifth. an example of an Austrian Customs knot.

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## Robert Wilkinson-Latham

The 'lazy' way to tie a full dress Knot for junior officers below Field Rank!!!
Invented by JT Musgrave who joined Wilkinsons in 1876, became a Director and retired in the 1930's.

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## Mark McMorrow

Here are two more Austrians.    









This Polish cavalry trooper is armed with a German artillery saber (quite common in Polish use during the 1920s and early 30s).

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## Glen C.

Something struck me when looking at one of Jean Binck's pages
http://users.skynet.be/euro-swords/naval1837focus.htm

That being the use of the knot to secure the sword to the scabbard. My curiousty makes me wonder if that was an adaptation for what we would think a frog stud, or a possible explanation for all the earlier scabbards we see with a handy capstan that we see as superfluous for a scabbard with a ring or rings as well. 

That is an intresting bunch of accessory on the Polish trooper's scabbard

Cheers

Hotspur; _when are knots first mentioned or illustrated being used?_

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## Robert Wilkinson-Latham

Mark Cloke on Old swords has listed many of the sword knot variations that existed and a great list it it with excellent coverage.

Even today, there are over 20 different knots in service with the British Forces and the MOD has just issued a Specification to govern the manufacture etc of all these knots and also what regiments wears what. As the Technical Director of Pooley Swords, I have a copy!
The book is illustrated in colour. Unfortunately it is a Restricted issue but to those who know knots, holds no surprises.
Robert

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## George Wheeler

Some great photos of knot variations and period photos of knots in wear.  

To follow up on Robert's rather neat pre-tied Musgrave Patent sword knot, here are some other "odd ball" variations of the standard "regulation" 1902 US Army officer sword knot.

First, a variation with a flat strap and a flat ball.  This knot is shown below a reproduction knot for the Patton Cavalry Sabre.  The flat knot has several interesting features such as the integral button loop on the strap.  The strap on this particular knot is not continuious but is made in two pieces with the button loop that attaches to the sword guard.  The button is actually a copper rivet of the type found on much early US leather equipment from as far back as the Civil War.  

Second, a closeup of the ball of the flat knot showing the construction, which is roughly similar to the Patton knot from the same time period.  

Third, a period catalog page showing this style of flat knot that was marketed/sold to US officers as a "US Regulation" knot.  

Fourth, another variation US knot with a flat strap instead of one made of woven leather.  This knot also has a whistle incorporated into the ball.  These whistle knots are very scarce and seem to have been an idea that was better in the concept than in actual use.

Fifth, a period catalog page showing this style of whistle knot that was marked/sold to US officers.

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## Sean Scott

Arrgh, must you tease me with the whistle knot?   :Big Grin: 

On your flat ball knot, I think it might be saddler-made and not commercial.  If you look closely at the catalog photo, the "flat ball" has the zig-zag carvings of a M1902 knot; I don't think it's actually flat, it just looks that way from the perspective, being reprinted, and then scanned.

There is a 1920s NARA file that discusses field modifications and repairs made by saddlers to the M1912 knot, and there are very many unmarked knots out there of somewhat less sophisticated construction than those RIA-marked.  The rivet is something that would have been in a saddler's kit, as well.

Very neat, whatever it is.

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## Dale Martin

HI: I am a newbie here, but I have a few French Epees and Sabers, and no one seems to know what kind of knot, troeddel, strap, port-epee, or Dragon, is used with these weapons.

An NCO Epee modele 1882...

Sabre d' Hussar Mle 1822 tranforme 1882,

(This is the curved blade ubiquitous Mle 1822, copied in the US, but transformed into a straight blade...supposedly a rare saber)


Thanks

Dale

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## Sean Scott

> Sabre d' Hussar Mle 1822 tranforme 1882,
> 
> (This is the curved blade ubiquitous Mle 1822, copied in the US, but transformed into a straight blade...supposedly a rare saber)


I have seen a couple of Mle 1882s with flat-strap leather knots very similar to those used on the US M1902.  I don't know if they were correct...

Entering "French saber knot" in an Ebay search turned up several (pricey) reference books that may hold the answer.

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## George Wheeler

> Arrgh, must you tease me with the whistle knot?  
> 
> On your flat ball knot, I think it might be saddler-made and not commercial.  If you look closely at the catalog photo, the "flat ball" has the zig-zag carvings of a M1902 knot; I don't think it's actually flat, it just looks that way from the perspective, being reprinted, and then scanned.
> 
> There is a 1920s NARA file that discusses field modifications and repairs made by saddlers to the M1912 knot, and there are very many unmarked knots out there of somewhat less sophisticated construction than those RIA-marked.  The rivet is something that would have been in a saddler's kit, as well.
> 
> Very neat, whatever it is.


Sorry about showing the whistle knot Sean.   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

I do agree with you that the flat knot is most probably a saddler made knot.  "Less sophisticated construction"... I like that description.  The zig zag cuts in the barrel rolled ball are what I think of as a US regulation knot.  The other point is the woven leather crown (that normally mimics the woven sliders) that is usually repeated at the bottom of the ball.  It is the variations that drive us as collectors to identify, name, catalog, and aquire them all.  The guys who wore them probablly could have cared less if their russett leather knot was slightly different from the next fellow's.  

Here, just to drive you crazy, is a closeup view of the whistle knot.  And, yet another slightly different variation of the "regulation" knot with a flat strap.

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## Sean Scott

> It is the variations that drive us as collectors to identify, name, catalog, and aquire them all.  The guys who wore them probablly could have cared less if their russett leather knot was slightly different from the next fellow's.


Most likely true.  I know how much thought I put into my uniform accessories... 




> Here, just to drive you crazy, is a closeup view of the whistle knot.  And, yet another slightly different variation of the "regulation" knot with a flat strap.


Gorgeous examples, I am envious!

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## George Wheeler

Below are some photos of how these knots are constructed.  

First, a German Troddel in various phases of construction.  The strap is doubled over and sewn together with a wire attachment.  The strap is then threaded through a slider and these will be seen on a string.  It is then threaded through a cloth covered wooden stem and the stem is attached to the ball.  The wire is then twisted to hold it securely inside the wooden (sometimes cardboard) form of the ball.  The vertical cords are then attached to the ball and horizontal cords, which make up the crown, are then attached to the top of the ball.  Finally, an insert is glued over the hole in the bottom of the ball to hide the wire attachment.

Second, a completed Troddel with an official sealed pattern tag attached.

Third, a Japanese officer sword knot showing the strap and brass metal slider that sits on top of the crown of the knot.  The vertical cords are splayed open to show the black wooden form beneath.  

Fourth, a view of the bottom of the unsewn knot showing the insert that covers the wire and hole in the bottom of the ball. 

Fifth, a completed Japanese officer sword knot showing the vertical cords sewn together to complete the construction of the knot.

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## Peter Busch

The 'US' knots you have been illustrating in russet leather are really more the French style where they leather is typically rolled into a cylinder and either is left plain or has a zig zag cut into it.

The British style is the tassel.

The German style is either 'oeffener Quaste" (open frilly bits), or 'geschlossene quaste' enclosed ball .....

Here is a link that shows the Guard Republicaine 1822 pattern with the French style knot:

http://gardiens.traditions.free.fr/G...Unif/GTS02.jpg

http://gardiens.traditions.free.fr/G...nif/Gant01.jpg

which as you know is the parent of US sabres ....

I have plenty more sword knot pictures, but swordforums policy of limiting picture size makes it all too hard ....

Anyway a Bavarian Faustriemen (for cavalry)

And more french knots (from Jean Binck) 

And there are plenty more pictures of German ones, but it's too hard to upload ... so too bad (Adrian increase the picture size please!)











> I have seen a couple of Mle 1882s with flat-strap leather knots very similar to those used on the US M1902.  I don't know if they were correct...
> 
> Entering "French saber knot" in an Ebay search turned up several (pricey) reference books that may hold the answer.

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## Sean Scott

> The 'US' knots you have been illustrating in russet leather are really more the French style where they leather is typically rolled into a cylinder and either is left plain or has a zig zag cut into it.


Considering the considerable influence of the French on US swords and sabers, it's not surprising to see knot design was also very similar.

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## Sean Scott

I have a Civil War-era bullion officer's knot, but it's silver instead of gold.

I know that branch colors were included in the knots, I have period gold knot with a blue cloth center in the ball and the bullion painted blue on the end.  But who used silver bullion knots?

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## George Wheeler

Sean,

Could we see a photo of the silver CW knot?  These US CW knots were typically all gilt and US Navy knots often have the blue center in the ball as you describe but I am not really familiar with a silver bullion knot of this style being worn by US officers during the Civil War.  I would like to see it.

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## Sean Scott

> Sean,
> 
> Could we see a photo of the silver CW knot?  These US CW knots were typically all gilt and US Navy knots often have the blue center in the ball as you describe but I am not really familiar with a silver bullion knot of this style being worn by US officers during the Civil War.  I would like to see it.


I've heard the blue=Navy before, but I've seen several examples of a M1852 with a period all-gold knot, and the US Navy still uses the same knot...all gold.

What really put the doubt in my mind was seeing a period knot with a red center...artillery?

I took a photo of the silver knot next to a gold one...

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## George Wheeler

A very handsome looking silvered knot.  I don't know offhand who would have used this particular knot but it looks perfectly original to me.  It certainly has the look of a US officer knot.

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## Sean Scott

I appreciate the look, George.  It looks like this might not be as easy as I'd hoped...

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## George Wheeler

Gents,

I picked up an interesting Czech sword knot at a militaria show this weekend and thought I would share it.

The knot is made in the same form as other knots from the old Austo-Hungarian Empire and I first thought it was an Austrian knot until I picked it up and looked more closely.  The bullion Czech lion is worked on both sides of the stem of this knot.

It now resides on my Czech Gendarmerie sword.

George

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## fernando viana

Hi Mark




> I have a page with the various British pattern knots on my site if anyone is interested.....
> 
> http://www.oldswords.com/resources/swordKnots.php


I have registered in your site, but i can't find the page with the sword knots.
Can you please help how to do it ?
Thanks
Fernando

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## J.G. Hopkins

Make sure you are logged in and go to the resources section.

Jonathan

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## fernando viana

Thank you Joanathan,




> Make sure you are logged in and go to the resources section.
> 
> Jonathan


It worked. But no satisfactory results, though.
Firstly, the page only lists descriptions, not supported by illustrations, nor in which sword pattern/s they were used.
Secondly, i am after a plain troopers 1796 (heavy) cavalry sword knot, and i guess there are only (officers) dress coloured knots in the listings.
The sword knot i am investigating is a plain style, with the strap and tassel in colourless (?) buff leather.
My problem is that, at a certain stage, this model evolved in one with the same aspect but with a brass button ... so it seems.
My question is when this alteration took place, so that i can narrow the age estimation of a sword i have just acquired, with the said knot.
I would be thankfull for your or anybody's help.
Fernando

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## fernando viana

Thank you Peter,
I saw those ... and that's precisely my drama.
If you notice, one example has a brass button and the other hasn't.
And in Military Heritage they pretend that the brass button appeared in 1822, mentioning that such button was meant for an adjusting purpose.
Well it happens that my sword knot has a brass button but only one hole to fit in and close the strap, not for adjusting. Are they referring to the same sword knot, the adjusting term being a figure of speech ?
And is it an evidenced fact that this modification actualy took place in 1822 ? In that case i would have to reconsider the estimated age of my sword, which i thought has entered Portugal for the Peninsular War (1808-1814).
The sword in question is a 'mismatch', composed of a sword made by 'I Gill' and a scabbard made by Osborn & Gunby Birminghman
Further coments wil be much apreciated.
Fernando

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## Peter Busch

> Thank you Peter,
> I saw those ... and that's precisely my drama.
> If you notice, one example has a brass button and the other hasn't.
> And in Military Heritage they pretend that the brass button appeared in 1822, mentioning that such button was meant for an adjusting purpose.
> Well it happens that my sword knot has a brass button but only one hole to fit in and close the strap, not for adjusting. Are they referring to the same sword knot, the adjusting term being a figure of speech  .....


Okay you've got me there .....! I would be more inclined to believe the authenticity of born2late as they are British and the sword is a British one.

I purchase knots from Thin Red Line:

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~th...ttasselend.htm

.... but then I'm more in to the Victorian rather than Napoleonic era.

I don't know for sure if the stud is actually Napoleonic, but I would say born2late must have a fairly good idea.

Regarding one hole ... well simply make another! At the end of the day, the knot was intended to be functional, simply limiting it to one hole (where the knot was actually intended to be adjustable) does not make sense ...?

Kind regards,

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## fernando viana

Thanks for the hint Peter,i will try and contact born2late.
The adjusting thing was in order to confirm if it is the same version as mine, for ID and age purposes only. I am not intending to add holes to mine, just to make the adjustment make sense  :Big Grin: .  After all, it's a device with aprox. two centuries and in a very bad shape.

Fernando

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## alan simpson

Hello George,
                   An excellent idea for a thread as there is so much to learn when it comes to accoutrements.The attached photos are of a standard French cavalry trooper's sabre circa 1874,in nice condition and with its original field service scabbard cover and sword knot.The cover is made of soft cotton and leather while the knot is strongly made of thick leather.
            Cheers,
                      Alan Simpson

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## George Wheeler

Alan,

Thanks for showing your French sword accouterments.  I have seen the canvas and leather (and all leather) sword covers for Japanese swords but never a French cover.  A very neat outfit!

George

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## fernando viana

Hi Peter,




> ...I don't know for sure if the stud is actually Napoleonic, but I would say born2late must have a fairly good idea ...


That was an excelent sugestion. Yaron was kind enough to have already filled me in this sword knot subject.
I fact, the button has been there all time; the 1822 evolution appears to be a fantasy.
Fernando

.

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## morgan butler

I have just purchased a replica/new " Prussian Imperial German style" sword knot. 
To be frank, I chose it because I liked the colors. I have a about 3 different German swords that I thought it would look good on. But out of curiousity I wondered if anyone knew what it _might_ be as far as military designation, if it even has one. Regardless, I like it anyway. The colors on the strap are green and red, the tassle is red and black.

                                        Thanks,
                                              Morgan

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## Dale Martin

Wuertemburg, Uebersturmstrassenputzer.... :Stick Out Tongue: 

Seriously, Looks like a "Swaebishe Offiziere" to me.

Dale

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## morgan butler

I like the first designation better! :Wink:

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## George Wheeler

> Wuertemburg, Uebersturmstrassenputzer....
> 
> Seriously, Looks like a "Swaebishe Offiziere" to me.
> 
> Dale


Yeah, sounds like a winner designation to me!   :Big Grin: 

Morgan, it is not really anything but German "Nationale" knots were red/white/black color combinations as were some Württemberg knots.  The different color stripes on the lower ball are typical of NCO ranks and some lower Officials (Beamte).  So, I would say put it where you want it but it might make more sense with Civil Service swords or swords such a Colonial Service or even a Württemberg sword.

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## Mark Cain

George:

Any guesses as to what this [presumably] Prussian portapee tells us? It's all gold or brass wire, including the wires woven into the holes in the strap; no other colors involved.

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## George Wheeler

Mark,

These are always a bit tough because of the variety of these gold Portepee styles.  My initial impression is that it is a "Beamte Portepee" for a civilian official rather than a military officer.  These knots were gold colored and could have gold wire straps or leather straps where military officer knots were normally made of silver colored wire.  

It looks like a nice Imperial period knot.

George

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## Roy Hamilton

George:
You pointed me to this thread about Sword knots, and so I will post a photo of one of the Civil War  Sword Knots I bought from from Bannermans in about 1954 for the large sum of 25 cents.  I actually bought three, and they are all the same.  Later I bought amother one of a different style with a small loop with a stud to hold it on the Guard Bow.   I will post a photo of it later.
I also got permission from my friend Roger Bender of Bender Publishing to scan some photos of German Knots in color.   The book "History of the German Bayonet 1919-1945" is out of print now, but it is a great book for those who collect German Bayonets, and it shows a lot on Bayont Knots.  I will add them to this thread as soon as I scan them.
I have a Japanese Sword Knot which came on my Japanese Cavalry Saber, and another one on a Japanese NCO Sword that is all fabric material like a ribbon, with a double tassle.
Roy

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## George Wheeler

Roy,

This beefy Civil War enlisted sword knot is just about impossible to find nowadays.  Well worth the .25 cents you paid for it.  Below is the same knot you show that is also made by Gaylord.  Sorry the pictures are not very good.  Alongside is a variation knot with a smaller braided turks head crown.  This one is unmarked but it is an interesting US Civil War variation on the theme.

Also, thanks for the kudos on "Seitengewehr:  History of the German Bayonet 1919-1945".  I wrote it.

I look forward to seeing your other knots.  I am really a sucker for these things.

George

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## Roy Hamilton

George, Stupid Me!!!

I didn't even look at the Authors name when I pulled the book from my library.  I have Book Number 5, signed by you.  In Fact, I own every book that Roger has published, and ALL but one is numbered and Autographed.  This is over 100 books, of very high quality.  

I will take photos of the other style knot that I got from Bannermans in next few days.  It is the style with the small loop on the mounting end held on by a small stud.  This loop is just large enough to go around the knucle bow to attach it to the saber.  I think you will like it.

The Knot on my Japanese Cavalry Saber has a buckle and tongue at the saber hilt end for attaching to the saber.

I will send you a message on your personal Profile sight, and maybe we can communicate by phone.

I will also photograph my Frogs, and see what I can do about starting a new thread on Frogs.

Roy

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## Sean Scott

> Sword Knots I bought from from Bannermans in about 1954 for the large sum of 25 cents.  I actually bought three, and they are all the same.


I also have a Gaylord knot, but unfortunately I paid somewhat more than 25 cents for it...






> Later I bought amother one of a different style with a small loop with a stud to hold it on the Guard Bow.


If you're talking about one like below, this was the regulation attachment method for the M1885, M1902 and M1913 knots.

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## Roy Hamilton

Yes Sean,
My Saber Knot is of that style, but has seen conciderable use.  It is on my 1872 Cavalry Officers Saber, which was made in France.  I find most items that can deteriorate, and fall apart, bring much higher prices these days.  I bought a Civil War Surplus Union Back Pack made of tarred linen with leather straps from Bannermans for 30 cents, and except for a couple of small leather straps coming apart it is still like new.  It has 1864 inspectors stamps in the leather shoulder straps.  I have had it packed away since I bought it in approximately 1954, no I am trying to figure out just how I am going to display it.  One of my prides, that I bought from Bannerman is a Hardee Hat with Cavalry crossed swords, and Yellow Cords,  It is in like new condition, along with its plume.  These were just $1.50, and I bought two, but later traded one for a Japanese helmet.  I would much rather have the Hat today, but I still have the Helmet.
I will photograph the rest of my knots in a few days, and my frogs at the same time.
Roy

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## Roy Hamilton

I forgot to add the link below to a great website which has thousands of Old Photos, many of which are military dating from the Civil War up.  The photos are in catagories such as Military- Civil War etc.  The one I am sending which is shown in the link shows a good photo of a General Officers Sword Knot.  There are lots of photos of Soldiers with swords, but it takes many hours as you go through the different photos.
Enjoy,
Roy

http://www.old-picture.com/american-...-Major-012.htm

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## Robert Wilkinson-Latham

And also a slight aside for those that collect equipment as well is the Musgrave Patent Holster and drinking cup from the same period.
I've repeated the  Musgrave Knot for good measure even though I've put it in higher up this thread as the records show officers bought BOTH together (anything for an easy life I suppose!).

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## Mark McMorrow

thanks for posting that, Robert!  I would *love* to have one of those holsters...

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## Richard Schenk

> I've heard the blue=Navy before, but I've seen several examples of a M1852 with a period all-gold knot, and the US Navy still uses the same knot...all gold.
> 
> What really put the doubt in my mind was seeing a period knot with a red center...artillery?
> 
> I took a photo of the silver knot next to a gold one...


Was the blue bottom exclusively used by the Navy?  I recently acquired this Springfield M1860/78 S&F sword with the last style address which Farrington tells us was used from 1900-1903.  It has what is supposedly its original gilt bullion knot, which looks the right age, but the center appears to be black (dark navy?).  Would this be correct for a turn-of-the-century Army officer, or is it more likely a navy knot which was mated with the sword at some later time?

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## George Wheeler

Richard,

I don't think the gilt knot with a blue insert in the bottom was exclusive to USN Officers.  A blue US Navy uniform may equate to a blue insert on the knot but the US Army dress uniform is also blue...  Don't forget that Officers were/are responsible for buying their own swords and knots.  They could purchase whatever they wanted and there is little difference in the largely unseen insert in the bottom of a sword knot.  

I would not spend a minute of worry over your Army S&F sword with a period correct knot with a blue insert.  I have learned over the years to never say never concerning what was actually worn by soldiers during time of use, particularly US soldiers.  

George

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## Richard Schenk

George, 

     Thanks for the information.  

     Here is another knot that doesn't seem to fit the normal pattern.  Some years ago I bought a Springfield M1882 (before Farrington, M1872) artillery saber from an elderly lady who said it belonged to her great uncle, Col. James Farley Cox who died in 1898.  He was a CW veteran who also served in the post-war 22nd Regiment of the NY National Guard.  There is one disconnect in this story in that from the records I've seen, the 22nd is an infantry, not artillery unit.  In any event, the sword had what certainly looked to be its original knot still attached in the proper manner.  Rather than being gold bullion as would be expected, it was primarily tarnished silver bullion with two gold threads running the length of the strap, gold boarders on the slide, and gold bullion on the end piece.  See atch'd photos.  Does this match anything you've seen before?

Dick

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## George Wheeler

Dick,

Your silver knot looks similar to the silver sword knot, discussed and pictured, in post #25 of this thread.  I have one of these silver knots too but I have found no regulations for such a US knot.  There is another possibility seeing the excellent photos of your knot.  I have seen similar knots made with mixed media where tarnish or age or unstable dye lots change the colors.  Most notably, a mixture of wire and celluloid will produce highlights like this where some threads hold their color while others do not.  Many of these officer knots are made of gilt or silver washed copper wire parts and the wash will simply disappear over time.  Colors were unstable early on and I have repeatedly seen this phenomenon on various Officer & Enlisted German knots of various styles.

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## Richard Schenk

> Dick,
> 
> Your silver knot looks similar to the silver sword knot, discussed and pictured, in post #25 of this thread.  I have one of these silver knots too but I have found no regulations for such a US knot.  There is another possibility seeing the excellent photos of your knot.  I have seen similar knots made with mixed media where tarnish or age or unstable dye lots change the colors.  Most notably, a mixture of wire and celluloid will produce highlights like this where some threads hold their color while others do not.  Many of these officer knots are made of gilt or silver washed copper wire parts and the wash will simply disappear over time.  Colors were unstable early on and I have repeatedly seen this phenomenon on various Officer & Enlisted German knots of various styles.


Thanks George.

You are right, my knot appears identical in construction to your silver knot with the exception of the gold stripes and end piece on mine.  Looking closely at the threads, etc on mine, I don't think your alternate theory about fading applies to this knot - the colors are too even, even in recesses and protected areas.  I think these are the original colors, only with the silver being tarnished to a more blackish shade.  

In the absence of any real evidence, I would speculate this might be a unit-specific variation.  I know militia/National Guard units at the time often had uniform elements, especially in their dress uniforms, which varied considerably from those of the regular Army.  It would be nice to know if anyone else has encountered like knots, especially if they had specific provenance.

Dick

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## FrederickWFRivard

Anyone know anything about 18th Century Sword Knots?

My Dragoon Unit added a Sword Knot section to our SOP (for insurance) and the Captain said the last one he saw was in 1980 A.D. and the repro. is $45.00 without shipping. So I've decided to make them myself.

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## George Wheeler

Frederick,

Are you talking about US Dragoons or German, etc?  I think we need some more specific information on what you are asking.

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## william fisher

nice article George, got your book a lot of info in it ..one question i have, i a few  various sword knots from the weimer republic , various colors and etc .  and at one time i had heard some of them were being reproduced, if so, can they be looked at and see some how if they have been reproduced ? thanks for your help ....bill

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## George Wheeler

Thanks Bill.  I appreciate the kudos as a lot of time and effort went into research of that book section.  

Yes, the German knots (Portepee, Troddel, & Faustriemen) have been extensively reproduced.  I have not seen a lot of Faustriemen reproductions but quite a few varieties of the other two styles.  Early on Tom Johnson reproduced some Portepee that used some new old stock (NOS) German bits and pieces that are very good reproductions.  These can typically be spotted with a black light that will make some new parts glow.  Another thing is to pull apart the vertical cords on the ball and look at the thread underneath.  If is looks new it is a reproduction as this was usually made with grey or old waste thread during the original time of use.  Later knots made in Pakistan just look new and sloppy in execution with odd bullion or thread parts so look at the overall knot next to one you know is good.  The current Rex Reddick reproductions are better executed than the Pakistan and Chinese made ones and one can see his examples listed in his catalog or at his tables set up at shows such as SOS.  BTW, Reddick has a good book "Edged Weapon Accouterments of Germany 1800-1945" out on German knots.

Ebay is full of these reproductions and is a good place to look by searching for "sword knot" or one of the German terms listed above.  

George

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## william fisher

wow thanks George for that info .. ok i got of them faustriemens so i ran in the other room to check them out well underneath mine looks like a wound wire sticking into a wood plug ??  please dont tell me these are faked  !!..  boy they sure look good !!  one other question also i have a nice wwll german army officer dagger with burnt orange handle an silver fitting a real nice piece  ( i think) ... some time ago a person said that the dagger could what you called (NOS) because johnson had a lot of stuff shipped back here to the U.S to sell or part out with that in mind a lot daggers could be put together that way ? and who would know ?? i understand even when they were first assembling they fitted them together  matching up parts for a nice fit which could be done here also  thanks for you help ..bill  P.S after reading your article i bet MINE are FAKE !!!

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## Eric Fairbanks

I would love to see an example of any Federal period knot including US Dragoons. What would the leather on a Starr m1812 look like?

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## william fisher

George  since i last posted a comment i got your book out and on page 262 you show  a construction of a portepee with wire inside it just like mine so i believe mine are original too ?   hopefully thanks  ..bill

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## George Wheeler

Bill,

Yes, the Portepee and Troddel were both constructed with this wire securing the strap and stem to the ball as shown in the parts photo.  The tacky looking thread in the upper left hand quadrant of the photo is the wrapping you will see if you pull the vertical twisted cords apart with your fingernails.  This is what the reproduction makers almost always get wrong because it is not seen unless you look for it.  If your Troddel or Faustriemen has open tassels instead of a gathered at the bottom ball this waste thread wrap will not be there.  Your knots are constructed properly from your description. 

As to the daggers, Tom Johnson bought out the parts that Jim Atwood purchased from Solingen in the 1960s before he died.  While Atwood assembled these parts into daggers (along with newly made parts as well) Johnson sells them as parts and does not assemble them into so-called "parts daggers".  Most would consider the "parts daggers" assembled by Atwood as fakes because they were sold by Atwood as originals.  The only way to tell if your dagger is original is to have someone take it apart and look at it who knows what he is looking at.

Eric,

US Sword knots from the War of 1812 time period are very scarce and uniform regulations from this time period were sporadic at best.  Militia Dragoons and Federal Dragoons would have worn a variety of knots I think.  After circa 1840 regulations were better published and accouterments were more standardized until the US Civil War saw masses of Militia Federalized with US Regulars and regulations again were largely discounted since Militia, and Officers, tended to wear what pleased them since they had to buy their own equipment in most cases.

Having said all that, Some generalizations can be made from later regulations.  For instance, CW period regulations generally called for leather knots for Enlisted and NCOs and bullion knots for Officers.  Earlier knots tended to be leather for Enlisted/NCO and lace for Officers.  While lace covers a lot of material there is a difference.  But you ask about Dragoon knots and in my thinking a Dragoon Trooper would have a leather or linen knot.  I don't know about the color.  Some Dragoon collectors I know believe they would have been white buff leather but earlier accouterments such as crossbelts and bayonet frogs were made of white or unbleached linen. There was also the matter of a complete lack of consistency in early accouterments due to the fact of local manufacture and vague, or non-existent, regulations.  

I think the early uniform plates of the Company of Military Historians or the uniform plate collection of Anne Brown might be helpful but not definitive I am afraid.

George

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## william fisher

Thanks a lot George.... i looked at mine inside and the only thing there was the wire piece going into the wood piece so for once i got lucky with good ones !! also thanks for the other info on parts daggers ... bill

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## Richard Schenk

George, 

     - What do you think of the knot on Eric Fairbank's Le Page-style saber shown in the thread http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...n-Terminology?

     - Do you believe the style would fit the timeframe of the sword?  It looks like it has been with the sword a long time, and seems to fit as if made for it.  I'm really not sure of the age of the sword.  Most Le Page-style swords are dated to the First Empire timeframe, but I think this one may be a bit later.

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## George Wheeler

I agree that the knot seems to have been on the sword for quite awhile.  I don't see any particular reason that it could not be contemporaneous with the time frame of the sword.  I don't know what the red and green inner cords might signify.  Italy comes immediately to mind and I don't understand why these colors would be on a North American sword knot but never say never.  It is an interesting knot but I don't recognize it.

George

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## Richard Schenk

The Massachusetts Historical Society recently obtained the sword of Col Robert Shaw, commander of the famous 54th Infantry portrayed in the movie "Glory" (see http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/201...?event=event25).  If I recall correctly, in the movie he was shown wearing the M1850 Foot Officer sword, but in life it appears he had a non-reg Brit sword.  Of interest, I see his sword also had a non-regulation sword knot as shown below.  It appears to be a silver knot with red lines.  I don't know enough about these to recognize what it might be.  Looks rather British and with the red threads would seem more appropriate for an artillery than a infantry element.  Does anyone recognize this knot?

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## Will Mathieson

Crimson and gold cord/riband and acorn is used for several corps. The sword pictured has a special order blade, possibly the etching on the blade will give an answer.

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## Eric Fairbanks

Just learning on these knots so nothing to add but many thanks George for a most excellent thread. I am on my third read. Eric

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## Magnus K

Does anyone know what the wrist cords looked like which were attached to Austro-Hungarian sabres through holes in the grip? I would imagine the cords might be similar to the ones on Kilic? Does anyone have any graphic illustrations which show what these cords looked like, and how they were attached to the sabres?

I attach a picture which shows the use of portepee in action!

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## George Wheeler

Magnus,

Look at the Austrian sword knots shown in post #9 for several styles over time.  The knot that this Trooper in your post is wearing is the style with a loose fringe ball.  Worn by Officers and enlisted alike notice the yellow wool enlisted Cavalry knot shown in post #9.  Austrian and Hungarian knots were similar but distinctive even under the dual monarchy.

Here are a couple of other examples.

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## Magnus K

> Magnus,
> 
> Look at the Austrian sword knots shown in post #9 for several styles over time.  The knot that this Trooper in your post is wearing is the style with a loose fringe ball.  Worn by Officers and enlisted alike notice the yellow wool enlisted Cavalry knot shown in post #9.  Austrian and Hungarian knots were similar but distinctive even under the dual monarchy.
> Here are a couple of other examples.


George,

Many thanks for that. But I meant Austro-Hungarian hussar sabres from the 1700s with holes in the grip for wrist cords. I'm curious to know what these wrist cords looked like and how they were attached to the sabre. Presumably the cords were round in cross section rather than flat. Has anyone seen any paintings or pictures?

I would love to display the sabre on the wall with a wrist cord, like in the days when it was still in use. But I would need to know what they looked like to try to recreate the effect.

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## Magnus K

I attach some interesting pictures from some research by Erich Artlieb (Vienna University) which show:
a) that many Austro-Hungarian hussars did not always use portepees with their sabres,
b) what a hussar sabre portepee from the 18thC looked like, and
c) how the portepee was attached to the sword through a hole in the grip

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## Greg Nehring

Hi all, this is a great thread.  Here's a knot of US origin that is regimentally marked.  I'm not sure if it rare or knot  :Smilie:  but still nice.  The knot is marked RIA on one side and 
FIRST COMPANY SIGNAL CORPS N.G.N.Y  43.  This seems to be one item in my collection that I loose than find again and then loose :-(  What sword should go with this knot?

Regards,

Greg

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## Greg Nehring

Here is the end of the knot.  My files were too big to post all in one post.

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## George Wheeler

Greg,

Your knot is a nice US National Guard identified knot that was issued to a Signal Corps unit.  It is nice to find these unit marked knots.  This style of leather knot was first issued in black color up until sometime before circa 1902 when they became russet color to match the new brown leather accouterments.  Look closely and see if you can see a two or three letter inspector stamp and date on the strap.  This will help date the knot exactly.  A very nice and relatively scarce knot nowadays.

George

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## Eric Fairbanks

> George, 
> 
>      - What do you think of the knot on Eric Fairbank's Le Page-style saber shown in the thread http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...n-Terminology?
> 
>      - Do you believe the style would fit the timeframe of the sword?  It looks like it has been with the sword a long time, and seems to fit as if made for it.  I'm really not sure of the age of the sword.  Most Le Page-style swords are dated to the First Empire timeframe, but I think this one may be a bit later.
> 
> Attachment 147098


More photos of knot

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