# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  Pettibone Mfg. Co., Cincinnati OH Knights of Pythias sword?

## Z.Coppleman

Hello! I have recently acquired an old sword from a market, what are your thoughts?

So far I have:

Pettibone Mfg. Co., Cincinnati OH
Marked KP = Knights of Pythias
Knights of Pythias Lion Head Fraternal Sword
Scarce Cavalry Saber Pattern
Cavalry type brass hilting
Lion head pommel
Brass mounted metal scabbard
Sword in scabbard is 39 1/2 inches
c. 1895 - c.1900

Thanks guys, will upload some pictures soon!
Regards,
Z. Coppleman.

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## Glen C.

Hi Zac,

These are not so scarce. I hesitate to offer much more if this is headed towards auction or sale. Is there a person's name etched on the blade?


Click for bigger picture

More than one society adopted these as fairly popular and they are also found as presentation pieces for the military. The basic pattern is of the 1872 cavalry swords. The fellows above seem to have enjoyed them and the timeline is more or less right. One sitting seems unhappy to have his desert interrupted for the photo op.

Cheers

Hotspur; _Sure, pictures if you have them._

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## Z.Coppleman

Thanks for the info Glen, and no, I don't intend on selling this sword.

Very interesting picture, I see what you mean about the guy with his dessert, haha!

Is there much else you can tell me about it?

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## Glen C.

Is there a person's name etched on the blade?

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## Z.Coppleman

Pictures of the blade, hilt and throat of the scabbard.

Cheers!

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## Z.Coppleman

And some more...

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## Glen C.

Hi Zac

This one looks to be in pretty good condition. It can be sad if the blades get much corrosion at all. Looking into the name may put it in the best timeline possible. I can't really see what condition the grip leather is in but I have found Pecard's leather care goop to be better than I expected and I have had good luck with that. All that scabbard decoration could be a real pain to clean and polish, if that is where it is headed. Others may have better advices. German made, I would expect. I have never had a close look at one of these but I have passed by them on show tables. There is a fairly pricy recent title on these books _THE AMERICAN FRATERNAL SWORD; An Illustrated Reference Guide
by John D. Hamilton, Joseph Marino and James Kaplan_. If the genre of fraternal swords is going to be of interest, probably worth the cost of admission. It is on my list because I am always curious to read more about the business end of the cooperations between the importers and retailers.

Cheers

Hotspur; _I see some from time to time that look as fresh as the day they were made_

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## Z.Coppleman

Thanks for then info, Glen.

How would I go about researching the name?

Is there any other information you might be able to add?

Is there anyone on the forum that specializes in these swords?

Thanks again!

P.S: The grip leather i is perfect condition.

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## Glen C.

Google

Sites such as

http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/masoni...ns_america.htm

Your own efforts in looking at family names and individuals. That can be a pretty tedious matter and although I did find one quick page that looked hopeful, simply more association between an area and the social life of many at the time.

What you posted at the head of this thread is a fairly complete synopsis. What I am familiar with I pass on and I do keep a file of sorts. Ron Ruble's pages will come right up with some more Pettibone information. More of that one could spend some time researching. Thousands of hits for histories the Pythians and family histories. I guess what I am getting at is that you too could be an authority on them :Smilie:  Oddly (or not) that one b&w picture is the only example of these sabres I have in my picture files, only because they are generally not too hard to find pictures of.

Best of luck with it

Hotspur; _some are marked to Ames and I may indeed have a picture stored somewhere of one. That would be the Henderson Ames timeline and also reflect a lot of importing of fraternal swords_

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## Z.Coppleman

Thanks again, Glen.

Can you decipher the name on the blade?

I am no good with 'Gothic' font.

Regards,

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## Glen C.

I read it as F.C. Weller

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## Z.Coppleman

Thanks! I thought as much.

I cant seem to find anything on that name  :Frown: 

I can find a lot of info on the straight sword of the same fraternity, but not on this cavalry type sword. It must be somewhat scarce.

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## Glen C.

As mentioned at the start, not as uncommon as you might think.

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## Z.Coppleman

If this is true that it is a common sword, there is not a lot of information about it out there.

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## Glen C.

There is the $80 book. There are lots of information via searches. Try pythias saber, you will see many several.

Some names come up quickly, others, not so easily and as mentioned sometimes quite tedious. Have you searched for the name along Pythias? Spent some hours, even days? Noticed a lawsuit between a Weller and the Pythias folk?

Cheers

Hotspur; _I'm certainly not one in the $75 an hour bracket for doing the legwork for others but do poke around some when I can_

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## Glen C.

I can offer what I have, when I have time to. You may have overlooked some basic searches that would point to

_Knights of Pythias The Knights of Pythias organization was founded in 1864. The organization now 
functions as a fraternal society in the United States and Canada. They use swords in their regalia, 
many variations on patterns have been noted. Prior to the late 1880's the KoP dress or parade 
uniform used a variety of styles of fraternal swords. The specific design of these was not defined in 
detail in the regulations and many variations are seen, from simple cruciform militia styles, to 
elaborate fraternal styles also used by other organizations. After the Uniform Rank (UR) was 
instituted as the uniform branch of the KoP in the late 1880s, different swords were associated with 
each specific rank. There were Knights, Sergeants, Field Officers,Staff Officers, and Medical Staff 
with a different pattern for each group. The officers swords were curved 1870 style sabers with lions 
head pommels. All swords from the Uniform Rank have the letters UR somewhere on the hilts. 
Swords from years prior to the development of the Uniform Rank do not have this lettering. For Sir 
Knights, the sword is straight bladed with a cruciform brass hilt. The pommel is a knights head and 
helmet with a lion on the top, and there is a chain knuckleguard. The counterguard has a lily and the 
letters UR on it. The grip is leather wrapped with wire. The sergeants swords have a straight blade, 
a more elaborate brass hilt with a solid knuckleguard with either a leather grip with wire wrapping or 
an ivory grip. Field officers (Lieut. Capt, etc.) used a curved brass mounted cavalry saber similar to 
the US pattern of 1870 cavalry swords. For staff and Field officers (Colonel and above) the swords 
were again straight bladed and had elaborate hilts with ivory grips. Medical staff used swords 
similar to the 1840 Army Medical staff and/or paymasters swords. These had the letters MD for 
Medical Department on them, diffentiating them from military medical swords which have MS for 
Medical Service.

Knights sword from the Uniform Rank, Cruciform hilt, knights head pommel with lion on helmet, 
gryphon quillon, counterguard with letters "UR" and a lily, brass mountings, leather grip, single twist 
of wire around grip, chain knuckleguard. (Contributed by J&S Surplus, Moss Landing, CA, USA)
Click on the following link to see detailed photos.

Knights of Pythias Sword #1

Got a KoP sword? Click here to get values on Knights of Pythias swords from Ebay!

Symbology and lettering:

"UR" - Uniform Rank
"FCB" - Friendship, Charity, Brotherhood
Figural lily
Mounted Knight
Knights Helmet
Knights Helmet with shield and battle axe or halberd
"KP" - Knight of Pythias
_

http://www.internetsword.com/fraternalswords.html

Cheers

Hotspur; _So yes I guess, about as scarce as any of that organization using them. Add a handful for the few in the picture posted at the start. and an unimaginable number more for the entire production to satisfy the other societies using them_

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## Z.Coppleman

Wow! You really know how to find good info! I looked everywhere for something like that. Thanks very much, it is of great help.

I see what you mean, there are probably a lot of these swords still kicking about. But for me, being in Australia, there aren't many like this one at all!

You have been a great help, sir.

Cheers to you!

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## Z.Coppleman

Oh, and just one more question: where could I find a sword tassel/knot for one of these swords?

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