# Communities > Modern-era Swords and Collecting Community > Modern Production Katanas >  Zhi. Zhang sword Opinions!

## Trent Stevens

Hi Gents!  (and any ladies)

i was curious about Zhisword, i may by one soon. this will actully be my first and only Japanese stlye sword, i do want it to be a good one. i wanted to get all thoughts and opinions wheather good, bad or ugly about these swords

this'll make or break my puchase! allso if you have a another maker in this price range please let me know!

are they good quaility? can they take a beating? how are the fittings? which price and type is better?

thanks guys!

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## B Reese

reading around will help lots. It seems with Zhi, you can pay as much or as little as you like. If your going to use it to beat on and dont care about looks, check out sword-buyers-guide.com or anything that sells cheness, ive read there great for beating on. I just ordered and Oni forge, a factory second, you may want to check them out (oni-forge.com), there a bit more but i havent seen an ugly one on there site. just my .02

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## Glen C.

Hi Trent,

Welcome To Sword Forum International

I think it unfortunate that you would consider that "your one and only" Japanese style sword should be good at taking a beating. I do know folk have different expectations from sword ownership. I honestly think that if you are moving from a Gus Trim saber to any economy katanaesque sword, you are going to be dissapointed.

As far as the source you are asking about, there are a good many threads about them in the beginners section here. Some folk buying them consider them a good value. If you browse through a few weeks of posts there, you will see some of the recent threads. There is ample mention of other possibilities at a wide price range as well. The reality is that if you are looking for more than a disposable sword, you should do a bit of shopping around. More katana have been discussed in the Beginner's forum than anywhere else on this site.

Nail down how much you are willing to spend, instead of approaching it from the "how little can I spend and get a beater" train of thought. I'll admit I bought (at the time) what was considered a minimal katana (Hanwei Pratical katana). I wanted to see what all the fuss was about. That was four years ago. It is not a sword that sees a lot of use, aside from an annual cutting session. The cost was $140 to my door. I'm sure if I was handling it every day and beating on it, the wrap would be long gone. They are, though, still considered adequate and the company has a track record and support. Someone is expecting a special order from Zhang in a couple of weeks. It might be worth waiting for a few more to jump first. 

The overall quality of the Zhi-Zhang swords looks pretty pitiful to me but others are finding some value. You should check out their thoughts and justifications. Figure on spending at least $200 as a starting point but there are swords that cost less.

Cheers

Hotspur; _it is usually a get what you pay for hobby_

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## Nico Weyers

Hi Trent

I own 2 swords from Zhang and I am very happy.  I have pictures of my 2 swords and also a set of pictures of my sharpened one.

I bought *both*, including sharpening, sword bags, sword stand, cleaning kit, shipping, everything for a TOTAL of around $280.  

I have used my sharpened one for extensive cutting on some pretty tough targets and it has held up brilliantly.  The blade remains sharp, unscratched and able to cut a piece of A4 paper cleanly.  

Check out Zhi Sword on eBay and email them.  You can buy from them direct or from eBay.  They will also customise your sword as far as your wallet stretches.  Yes, there are better swords out there, but they cost more.  

In the end the choice is yours.  My sensei is happy for me to use my sword in iaido - and he's not the only one.  Timo Qvntus bought an iaito from Zhang and his sensei also allows him to use it.  Like I said, yes you can buy better, more expensive swords.  But if you get a sword from Zhang, you'll get a proper blade and if you take silk ito, you'd have a good looking sword for a fraction of the price of others.

My opinion?  Go for it.  It's cheap enough that if you do decide it is rubbish (VERY UNLIKELY), you wouldn't have lost much.  :Smilie:   Good luck and please PM me if you want more input!

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## Joo-Hwan Lee

> Hi Gents!  (and any ladies)
> 
> i was curious about Zhisword, i may by one soon. this will actully be my first and only Japanese stlye sword, i do want it to be a good one. i wanted to get all thoughts and opinions wheather good, bad or ugly about these swords
> 
> this'll make or break my puchase! allso if you have a another maker in this price range please let me know!
> 
> are they good quaility? can they take a beating? how are the fittings? which price and type is better?
> 
> thanks guys!


My opinion: you should be patient and save up more money to buy a better quality sword than Zhi.  Even if it takes a couple of years.  Save, learn as much as you can, then spend.  It'll be worth it.

Honestly, to me, swords like the ones from Zhi (or Zhang or whatever) represent the bottom-of-the-barrel.

Don't fill up on junk food.  Don't settle for "Ms. Right now" and wait for "Ms. Right" and so on....  

In the meantime, invest in a quality bokken.

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## Jeff Hagen

Considering what you are looking for, Zhi may not be the place for you.

I have a Zhi/Zhang sword on custom order, but I consider it to be an experiment. I'm hoping it will be better then a Cheness, but I won't be surprised if it is nothing more then an expensive wallhanger. Since you are looking for "first and only" I would not go this way. I plan to own quite a few swords in my lifetime, moving on from on to another as my tastes and budget change. 

I agree with Glen C. in that if you are looking for a "one and only" Japanese-like sword, then the Hanwei Pratical Katana is probably a better bet right now, if you are looking at the "lower end" of the market. Make sure to take a good look at Last Legend (not the "Pro" swords) and Bugei as well, just to see what is out there. 

If you have your heart set on a Zhang sword then at least wait until some more of his swords show up here as reviews. I know that myself and at least one other person here have been quoted shipping dates of Dec 20th. Being that mail from China is not exactly fast, I would expect to have it reviewed here on SFI sometime in the first half of January.

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## Sean Stonebridge

Hi Folks,

I was recently gifted one of these swords (via my eldest daughter) and can affirm the example I have has been crafted to a standard suited to both iaido and light tameshigiri practise (It has shallow well crafted bo hi).  It's saya has a reasonably pleasing profile and the silk wrap is nicely executed on a well shaped (Single pegged) 10" / 254mm poplar or magnolia core.  

The same' is low - medium grade and in the form of panels.

Wrap = Silk

Blade:

Kobuse

Hira zukuri with small degree of niku and balanced slightly forward.

Nagasa =  28.5" / 725mm

Sori =  0.75" / 20mm (

Moto-kasane = 7.5mm

Saki-kasane = 4.5mm

Differentially heat treated with natural (Clayed) hamon, which can deform to approx 50 degrees (Reduced due to shallow bo hi) and return to true.

Hamon = Notare (With ashi, nie and nioi) 

Kissaki = Chu-kissaki

Boshi = Ko-maru (Only brought to light during a current re-polish)

Yokote = forged in during crafting

Nakago file pattern = Katte agari (Which my daughter has asked for)

Nakago length = 8.75" / 223mm

Habaki = Well fitted and made from solid cast brass


Weight:

Bare blade =  1lb 15oz / 890g

In koshirae =  2lb 3oz / 1kg  

Complete =  2lb 10oz / 1.21kg 

Rc Mune =  42  

Rc Ha =  59  (Carried out by friend at local steel manufacturers and heat treatment plant)


Fittings:

Cheaply made cast zinc alloy


Overall a useable and serviceable blade, which could be worked upon to enhance it's initial appearance.   

IMHO A good overall DIY / improver project for those who wish to practise upon a decently priced package (More to do with the quality of the fittings used) and a soundly crafted blade which can be used to serve it's intended purpose.  

As Nico has rightly stated they do more than cater for entry level enthusiasts and price is reflected by package content.  Price?  You're basically dealing direct with a manufacturer / team of craftsmen who's pricing is dictated by costs peculiar to the region from which they operate, but also missing out the middle man, his profit margins and operating costs.  :Wink:

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## Trent Stevens

thanks all for replyin' to this post its really made me think.


there obviously a plethura of Japanese swords out there. im now even a little more confused. ive only ever been into the western swords.

i dont like paul chens stuff from past experiences. so i wouldnt by another one of them.

i may wait on the Zhi sword for the moment, it sounds like a decent sword. but im looking for a great sword. price range will depend on my obsession with the katana i like...

is there any makers of Japanese blades that are equal in quality to atrims?

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## Timo Qvintus

If you know what you want and Zhang's swords are it, go for it. If not and you are seriously only going to buy one sword ever I think you might want to go for something else. Don't get me wrong, I like my Zhang iaito and would happily buy another sword from him, but your situation seems to be a bit different..

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## Sean Stonebridge

> thanks all for replyin' to this post its really made me think.
> 
> 
> there obviously a plethura of Japanese swords out there. im now even a little more confused. ive only ever been into the western swords.
> 
> i dont like paul chens stuff from past experiences. so i wouldnt by another one of them.
> 
> i may wait on the Zhi sword for the moment, it sounds like a decent sword. but im looking for a great sword. price range will depend on my obsession with the katana i like...
> 
> is there any makers of Japanese blades that are equal in quality to atrims?




Hi Trent,

"Great sword" is very subjective at best, because it all depends upon which level of appraisal you're at.  Beginner / novice?  Improver?  Experienced?  Skilled?  Highly skilled?

A number of questions - if answered - could provide a base line on which you can qualify any future choices / decisions.  I'd advise you to wait and research as much as possible about the Japanese sword (eg. Buying or reading books) if you find you can't clearly answer the following questions with any certainty, because Zhi aren't anywhere near the middle of the pile (Well above wallhangers and SLO's, but their range is somewhere between Hanwei PK and Tiger) regarding the quality of blades available.

1.  Do you want a Hand crafted sword, or one with a machine made blade?

2.  Do you want a Japanese sword (Nihonto = Japanese made sword) or Japanese style sword (Made anywhere else in the world)?

3.  Do you want a traditionally made sword (With all of the bells and whistles) or a basic working "improver" piece?

4.  Do you want a cutting machine or one suited to training in kata and possssing traditional geometry?

5.  Do you want a useable display piece?

6.  What kind of budget do you have to work within?  

The price ranges in which you tend to find production swords will not necessarily buy you a great Japanese blade.  Good and serviceable?  Yes, but aiming at four to five figure sums will result in a great blade.

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## Trent Stevens

awesome questions, this may help! and i may just buy another Japanese sword after this one, if i truly like them. hey i never thought id even buy a katana in the first place.


1.  Do you want a Hand crafted sword, or one with a machine made blade?
it doesnt need to be hand crafted, just no machine stamped. a hand grind would do me fine.  1060 maybe?

2.  Do you want a Japanese sword (Nihonto = Japanese made sword) or Japanese style sword (Made anywhere else in the world)? bloody hell. i didnt even think of this. id take any good sword.

3.  Do you want a traditionally made sword (With all of the bells and whistles) or a basic working "improver" piece? traditional. thats kinda what drives me to get one

4.  Do you want a cutting machine or one suited to training in kata and possssing traditional geometry? traditional Geometry would be great. but i deffinantly want a cutter! something i can use for a long, long time.

5.  Do you want a useable display piece? id rather more usable then anything flashy!

6.  What kind of budget do you have to work within?  well, this is the hard part....when i jump into a new hobbie, i kinda test the waters with cheaper models.  
i have it.  400$  thats a medium level western sword. if i can really find good one that i like. id spend that...(or get my girlie to buy it)  

what do you guys think?

do you guys cut with yours?

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## Trent Stevens

holy crap batman! i just looked at Rick Barrett's stuff!!  he must be upper eshelon.

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## M.K. Ridgeway

I just broused an auction by these guys on ebay...

 All of the pictures were identified as Zhi images except the last three or four.

Those were identified by numbers (meaning file name when saved to "my pictures.

  There seems to be a great discrepancy between the other pics , both here and on the auction...

  The hamon is different...the nakago shaping far better, hell even the photography looks professional...and the blade looks vaugely familiar.

   So are these guys stealing photos and passing them off...or should we all be buying from these guys?

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## Joo-Hwan Lee

The first picture looks like an antique.

The second pictures I'm not sure about.

The third picture looks like one of the Huanuo/DF stone-polished line.


-Edit to add-

Indeed, the third picture is one of the Huanuo line.  Verify here:  www.bugu.co.uk

Stealing pictures = _PATHETIC_.

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## Sean Stonebridge

Hi Trent,

He is  :Wink: 

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Hi Marc,

I'm presently working on a recently gifted Zhi blade (Present from daughter) and have found much the same activity as in the pic's you've posted, but the original polish was nowhere near the same level.  The pic's may be sample stock images,  nakago on the blade in my possession actually flows with the overall blade shape and is nicely done.  The original crispness was unfortunately marred by some idiot they'd allowed to use a buffer wheel, which had glazed over the hamon (Making it appear wire brushed) and causing the blade appear gawdy instead of the acceptably subdued, crisp finish.  

Could it be that they do offer higher end blades than we assume?  

IMHO I can't see why not.  We tend to forget the Chinese were partly responsible / behind the origin of Nihonto and the progenitors of many high end art forms and crafts.  Plus they invented pasta  :Big Grin:

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## Joo-Hwan Lee

*PATHETIC.*  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## michael wilson

Well thats set alarm bells ringing  - 

Joo/M.K  - are Zhi swords using that 'borrowed ' pic and portraying it as an image of one of their own products ?  If so thats highly questionable  - 

Zhi swords have been getting such good press on SFI begginers forum , its a shame if they've resorted to such a cheap trick as this .

In all sincerity and respect to Zhi sword owners  - can someone please explain 
their 12 step polishing process , a few threads have mentioned this with 
customers saying they commissioned this as an after production extra service ,

I am greatly interested in all aspects of togi shi or sword polishing and am 
curious about this process .

P.S  - Sean is really worth listening to re his opinion of Zhi swords  - what he does'nt know about the katana isnt worth knowing .


Mick

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## Jeff Hagen

Yup, those look like stolen pictures.

 :Mad:   :Mad:   :Mad:   :Mad:   :Mad:  

Is there any possible chance that Huanuo and Zhang are the same forge? That would be the only possibly way that this would be acceptable in any sense of the word. 

 :Mad:   :Mad:   :Mad:   :Mad:   :Mad:  




> In all sincerity and respect to Zhi sword owners  - can someone please explain 
> their 12 step polishing process , a few threads have mentioned this with 
> customers saying they commissioned this as an after production extra service ,


I donno what the polish is exactly, I only know that they have 3 types of polish.

el'cheapo: They call it 8 stage? My guess would be sandpaper... Maybe a grinder? This is what they put on their $80 swords.
12-step: No idea what the steps are. It's standard on the "higher end" Zhangs. Probably a new marketing catch-phrase. 
Super-New-Polish: (donno the official name) It costs $800 more. For $800 I could almost have F. Lohman polish it and I doubt that they do as good of a job. I would have to see some awesome closeups of blades, recieved and posted here by customers before I would buy into this.

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## michael wilson

I agree , for $800 - $1k I would be more likely to spend the money on an 'established ' Togi who's work is well documented on SFI .

$800 is a big add on for post production work - especially with this 12 step process being so vague and the guys at Zhi being an unknown quantity .

If anyone does take the plunge and commissions one of these polishes I hope a review on SFI would be forthcoming 

Mick

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## M.K. Ridgeway

Well I have to echo Mick and say this...If Sean says these blades are worth a look; by God ,these blades are worth a look.

   Sean:

    congrats on the blade... what a good lass you have for a daughter.
I know by the time you finish with it it will be indeed nice. I have no doubts that the Chinese can turn out a fine product...The Chinese culture ,from antiquity, has been perhaps the most advanced and innovative on Earth.
   Where do you think the 
Japanese stole all their technology from? The west largely as well.
    As they such off the burdensome chains of State opression of free enterprise, I am sure we will see many marvelous things coming from them besides the knockoffs from hucksters that have unfortunately become synonomous with the Chinese in so many minds.


    Mick,Joo and Jeff:

       I'm going to include a link to an auction. Zhisword does not have any such pictures in their auctions , but another entity , masterzhisword, does.

   Notice the regular color photos of actual Zhi products. Look at the nakago...typical low end katana shaping.

  Now check out the last  4 photos...

  I'm sure the one sword is nihonto...and Joo has uncovered the source of one photo...

   Ah, the shame of it...

  As Mick said...the good press here on SFI could do wonders for Zhi, look what little ole me did for the Masahiro Bamboo...

  Sean's word alone is enough to get me looking at them in a new light.



   Unfortunately a stunt like  this sets back their integrity and raises more questions and eyebrows than it will business.

http://cgi.ebay.com/HAND-FORGED-IAIT...QQcmdZViewItem

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## Sean Stonebridge

Aye she is a canny lass.  Many thanks MK, but I think it was the luck of the draw regarding the blade.  The saddest fact is that their initial polish could very easily have been far better, or even swung the other way and destroyed any chance of a re-polish by reducing it's geometry to that of a tired blade / pen knife.

Yes the Japanese aquired most of their initial introduction to modern technology from the west, but they've managed to evolve their own and more in leaps and bounds since then  :Wink:  .  Puts us to shame really.  Playstation anyone?   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  

I certainly agree one of the pic's appears to be antique, but thereagain could just as easily be a well lit sample shot of their wares.  More evidence needed before jumping to assumptions.  

How many western manufacturers make goods to be sold under different brand names and banners?  Clothing, sporting goods and foodstuffs are just a few examples where various product designs are manufactured to order by one enterprise for multiple outlet chains.

--------

Versions of polish

El cheapo  =  Give it to the mother in law to nag into submission

12 step  =  Following the mother in law process (Which passes for 6 steps)it's passed onto a group of 6 laundry wenches who take it to heaven and back before passing it on to the chappy with two buffing wheels.

Super new polish  =  In addition to the steps taken in the 12 step polishing process the blade is taken on an all expenses paid Mediteranean cruise.

--------

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## M.K. Ridgeway

> Versions of polish
> 
> El cheapo  =  Give it to the mother in law to nag into submission
> 
> 12 step  =  Following the mother in law process (Which passes for 6 steps)it's passed onto a group of 6 laundry wenches who take it to heaven and back before passing it on to the chappy with two buffing wheels.
> 
> Super new polish  =  In addition to the steps taken in the 12 step polishing process the blade is taken on an all expenses paid Mediteranean cruise.
> 
> --------



  ROTFLMAO

  I wouldn't mind being taken to heaven by 6 laundry wenches on a Mediteranean Cruise...where do I sign up?

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## Sean Stonebridge

> ROTFLMAO
> 
>   I wouldn't mind being taken to heaven by 6 laundry wenches on a Mediteranean Cruise...where do I sign up?



Tickets temporarily sold out following a last minute rush of chappies with Zhi blades, buffing wheels and nagging mother in law's.  :Big Grin:  

The good news is that the offer is due to be renewed in the new year  :Wink:  , but the bad news is that - following an increase in Mediteranean Cruise ticket prices - the price of Zhi swords with "super new polish" will rise ten fold plus V.A.T.   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Nico Weyers

As one of the biggest supporters of Zhi Sword, I am a little puzzled at this - also a little hurt.  I have done much to try and create a positive image for Zhi Sword - out of my own free will and not for any compensation whatsoever.  I have been in very regular contact with Zhang and from what it seems (on the net at least), he is a sincere, honest fellow.  This "picture stealing" is in poor taste and I mean to ask him about it.  It is true that I am privvy to some info of his which other people might not be, so I will ask him.

There are abviously many differences between Western culture and Chinese (specifically).  For one, their incessant need to over-title something.  Look at the auction titles.  The other day, my mom bought my son a CHINESE "lego" set in South Africa.  You should have seen the box.  It was also over titled and tried to convince me that "buying this product will be good for children" and so on.  Ligao it was called.  Piss poor attempt at Lego.  Yet, it works somehow, fits with the other proper Lego and is very strong.  But it is a quarter of the price.  Perhaps I am just being too brand sensitive  :Wink: 

I still feel that Zhang is capable of making good swords and if you upgrade to silk ito for instance and customise your sword a bit, you'd end up with a darn decent product.  Remember, their focus is rather on _quantity_, rather than over engineered quality.  They'd rather make 10 swords for $40 than one 24ct gold habaki for $400.  Don't ask me why, like I said, culture differences.  

But watch this space, I'll try get an answer for this "picture stealing" issue.

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## Sean Stonebridge

Hi NIco,

I have no doubt Zhi can craft higher end swords, but the adoption of placing an emphasis on quantity over quality can be a big mistake in terms of the level of craftsmanship necessary for a work team to consistantly forge useable blades.  It normally proves best to produce quality and aim for quantity once the team has perfected the relevant process applications than risk one's reputation by purveying a mass of what could be construed as third rate products.

A professional / traditional sword polish can take up to ten days, but (Knowing that Chinese production workers typically earn the equivalent to £23 / $46 per week) don't you think Zhi's pricing for a high end polish is a little high?

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## michael wilson

bang on the money there M.K  - 

The last pic is of a nambokucho era blade  - pic lifted from Aoi Art .

shame .

This guy could be the front runner as far as entry level / intermediate katana goes  - he's had marvelous feedback here on SFI and offers loads of options .


a bit concerned about the offer of a spare tsuka complete with fittings for $15, $ 15 doesnt even get you the cheapest sageo usually .

also  - even though I am a honours graduate from the school of Itomaki crap wrap , I am sure you dont wrap the tsuka ito with the whole sword assembled 
and in saya , laid across your knees as Zhi's pics suggest  - it would be impossible to have a tight , functional wrap .

it took me a while to understand and Sean will verify this  - but the katana is the sum of its whole parts  - only as strong as its weakest link if you like .

myself and Sean both bought Tony Longs 1st katana , the Diamyo  - a wonderful blade , let down by its terrible tsuka and fittings .
indeed the tsuka was the same as the $15 one Zhi swords offer , same fittings as well .

You could have a Bugei samurai blade , a work horse of a cutter, beautiful folded blade   - but if mounted in a $15 tsuka /koshirea , as a whole it would be a poor sword performance wise due to tsuka failure when cutting .

just my two penn'th worth 

I missed your last replies guys  - Nico mate no ones dissing Zhi at all , we just want to clear a few things up is all , I always say " In all sincerity and respect " and I respect your opinion and your satisfaction with your ZHi sword  - its just 
that personally I am curious about the whole 8 step , 12 step polishing offer .

Sean has given a very favourable review of his Zhi sword and his hilarious washer woman polishing gag is just Sean being 
Sean  - Take it from me and M.K  - Sean is better placed more than most to be a nihon-to snob , that he is not and can do such a postive Zhi review is testament to the swords worth and Sean as a person  - 99% of people with his experience would have just said " this is crap compared to my early  koto era nihonto or indeed my Bugei dragonfly" .

I know costs have to be kept down but when your going to be wielding what amounts to 2 or 3 feet of razor sharp steel at high velocity you need quality there as well 

Mick

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## Timo Qvintus

On a lighter note, some of the pics say "copyright Zhisword", but the "stolen" pics don't..  :Stick Out Tongue:  Doesn't make it right, though. Nico, please ask Zhang to stop this foolish thing. He has perfectly good product, it'd be a shame if he fails because of something like this.

Regarding the wrap, the low-end cotton wrap I have on my spare tsuka is pretty weak, and the koshirae are cheap cast ones. However the upgraded silk ito wrapped on my iaito's tsuka is very tight. You get what you pay for.. unfortunately you have to know that you may need to ask for it (at least on the cheaper swords).

About the polish, all I know so far is that the last two stages in 12-process polish concentrate on the kissaki (10-process polish skips this if I'm correct)..

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## Skip Gardner

I havnt spoken with Mr.Zhang, but I think I see what has happened here.  The Zhi swords pictured are indeed marked with their name.  The true nihonto are not.  Why?  Because he is comparing his families product, verses the real thing.  I still find him to be to honost, and dont believe this to be an attempt at desception.
  I'm expecting mine sometime after Christmas I guess.  Should ship on the 20th.   I will take the best possible pics I can and post.

Skip

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## Jeff Hagen

If he is doing that, he should say that out in the ad. On ebay all photos are assumed to be of your product unless you say otherwise. 

It might be a language barrier thing, though. My fiancee's family is from Hong Kong and they sometimes do the darndest things...

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## M.K. Ridgeway

> I havnt spoken with Mr.Zhang, but I think I see what has happened here.  The Zhi swords pictured are indeed marked with their name.  The true nihonto are not.  Why?  Because he is comparing his families product, verses the real thing.  I still find him to be to honost, and dont believe this to be an attempt at desception.
>   I'm expecting mine sometime after Christmas I guess.  Should ship on the 20th.   I will take the best possible pics I can and post.
> 
> Skip


  I must respectfully disagree. The fact that there is a heading that says "Our Craftwork Display" then "Katana Blades" followed by the pictures, and at the bottom , in a red line which makes a box around the pictures "Copyright Zhisword" is shady at best.

   This trickery is unconsciable and the lack of the copyright on the photos themselves is if anything even more deceptive.

         Plausable deniability anyone?

  This does not take anything away from their presumed skill in smithing though. Non of the kats I've seen really appeal to me,but one of those jian is spectactular.

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## Skip Gardner

I just sent a message to Mr.Zhang.   I'm sure he will answer soon.   Never takes him to long to reply.  Kind of nice that.

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## Joo-Hwan Lee

I was going to hold my tongue, but I think this really needs to be said--

Too many Zhang/Zhi believers, including the new *converts*, aren't thinking with their brains anymore.  

They want to believe that Zhang is an honest individual who produces quality swords against all empirical and explicit evidence to the contrary.

If you're reading an essay, and you see that the _best passages_ have been *plagiarized*, would you still consider the author to be what he or she claims to be?  

Why would you then proceed to maintain the belief that this author is capable of producing excellent prose when so far, he has only submitted to the public mediocre and substandard examples?  And especially when that is what he produces (almost exclusively) and in great abundance?

In an earlier post in the Beginner's forum in October, I asked this question: "Lastly, I find it deeply suspicious whenever someone in Mr. Zhang's position is so insistent on asking people NOT to reveal pictures (when others in his shoes would pay for the publicity). Why??"  

Well, I finally have my answer now.  I think we all do.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: "Any respectable smith who is capable of producing custom swords worth $2400 [which is the price for his "high-end" blades] would not need to -- one could argue would not even WANT to -- simultaneously produce items of such low caliber or have his name associated with such junk." 

And now I'll add something else:

Any respectable smith who is capable of producing fine quality swords and a fine quality polish would not need to -- and still more would not want to -- *steal* images of work done by another artisan and pass it off as his own.

I could go on, but I'll stop there.

Seriously, people.  Wake up.

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## Timo Qvintus

:EEK!:  Joo, you need to work on your allegories.. And maybe attend an anger management course..  :Wink:  

Seriously though; I agree with the _"Any respectable smith who is capable of producing fine quality swords and a fine quality polish would not need to -- and still more would not want to -- steal images of work done by another artisan and pass it off as his own"_ part, but I'm willing to hear out Zhang's defense, if he has one.

For clarity's sake, Zhang has only asked not to post pictures of the forging/polishing process b/c he doesn't want competition to get their hands on that material (I don't know if they'd even want to but anyway..).

As for the _"Any respectable smith who is capable of producing custom swords worth $2400 [which is the price for his "high-end" blades] would not need to -- one could argue would not even WANT to -- simultaneously produce items of such low caliber or have his name associated with such junk"_  part... well, this way Zhang has a helluva lot broader variety of customers which makes him shitloads more money than concentrating solely on high-end products. What better reason is there, anywhere?

And your essay-allegory.. I got two words for you: "DaVinci Code". Nuff said. :Cool:

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## Joo-Hwan Lee

> Joo, you need to work on your allegories.. And maybe attend an anger management course..  
> 
> Seriously though; I agree with the _"Any respectable smith who is capable of producing fine quality swords and a fine quality polish would not need to -- and still more would not want to -- steal images of work done by another artisan and pass it off as his own"_ part, but I'm willing to hear out Zhang's defense, if he has one.
> 
> For clarity's sake, Zhang has only asked not to post pictures of the forging/polishing process b/c he doesn't want competition to get their hands on that material (I don't know if they'd even want to but anyway..).
> 
> As for the _"Any respectable smith who is capable of producing custom swords worth $2400 [which is the price for his "high-end" blades] would not need to -- one could argue would not even WANT to -- simultaneously produce items of such low caliber or have his name associated with such junk"_  part... well, this way Zhang has a helluva lot broader variety of customers which makes him shitloads more money than concentrating solely on high-end products. What better reason is there, anywhere?
> 
> And your essay-allegory.. I got two words for you: "DaVinci Code". Nuff said.


Timo, telling me that I need to attend an anger-mangement course is insulting and completely uncalled for; if anything it reflects very poorly upon you that you would have to resort to an _ad hominem_ attack.   Please don't do it again.  I think you read too much into the "tone" of my post and possibly projected your own feelings onto me.  The fact that my words may be forceful does not mean that I am angry.

In any case--

That this Zhang doesn't want his material posted for fear of competition is utter *nonsense* (and it was not just limited to forging/polishing process; thus far no informative image of even one of his "higher-end" custom blades has been made public) .  Surely even you can see that.  How is that in any way compatible with him stealing images of the "competition" (to whom, I assume, he isn't even a blip on the radar) and trying to pass it as his own work?  How does that make any kind of sense?

Isn't it much more likely that he doesn't want "his" work posted for fear of someone (like me) being able to see how the image has been stolen and re-used without permission?  Or how more experienced eyes will be able to point out the flaws in his work?  What 8-step or 12-step polishing?  And what mysteriously different and innovative forging and polishing processes are he using that must be kept secret??    

I think my example of plagiarism works quite well, even if you can't see it.  I've already gotten a handful of PM's that agree with me.  I don't see how "DaVinci Code" is "Nuff said"  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  but it's such a trivial point that it's not even worth belaboring with you.  

As for me, I think I've done all I can within reason to open some peoples' eyes.  

I'm sure you and the rest of Zhang faithful will continue to believe in his work and make all kinds of excuses for him; and even have faith that excuses for stealing exist (I mean, they must, right?  It's "master" Zhang!).  I honestly think it's just stubbornness, but that's your right and your business.

I don't want to waste my time anymore.  I'm done with this issue.

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## Timo Qvintus

Sorry Joo, didn't mean to offend you. That's why the smiley was there.. I'd better use [sarcasm][/sarcasm] tags in the future.

Re the pics.. My father has his own company and he'd be ****ing furious if someone took pictures from his workshop and posted them on the net, even if they would be just welding or stuff like that. As above, I won't comment the stolen pics further yet.

About this..



> If you're reading an essay, and you see that the _best passages_ have been *plagiarized*, would you still consider the author to be what he or she claims to be?  
> 
> Why would you then proceed to maintain the belief that this author is capable of producing excellent prose when so far, he has only submitted to the public mediocre and substandard examples?  And especially when that is what he produces (almost exclusively) and in great abundance?


This allegory doesn't' really make any sense. In this case the correct allegory would be that the text on the back cover of a book would be incorrect. If your allegory would hold true, then Zhang would be selling swords partially made by someone else..  :Confused:  For more on DaVinci Code, see Wikipedia. I think my point is clear enough.

You didn't comment my reasoning about why Zhang makes low-end products, does that mean you agree?

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## Joo-Hwan Lee

Apology accepted.  I apologize for my own abrasiveness as well.

Moving on--

Clarification:  I mean plagiarism in the context of the eBay advertisement.  Make sense now?

As for his making low-end products, I've personally known too many talented and proud artists (including, of course, smiths), visual/performing artists, and composers to buy the argument that he's condescending to make lower-end swords just to make a quick buck -- as an artist.  And even a lower-end sword made by a talented smith will still bear traces of his uniqueness and greatness.  Even a children's lullaby by Mozart will still bear traces of Mozart's genius and timelessness.  So far, all I see from Zhang's lower-end are sub-Masahiro level blades and copied fittings and mediocre/poor mounting.

Reputation as a great artist (and smiths are artists who produce highly functional art in steel) is earned.  In my opinion, even assuming he has the talent he claims, he is undermining his own credibility.  Still highly dubious is his secretive forging/polishing method; which implies he has invented it and that it departs significantly enough from already established conventional/traditional practices to merit being a trade secret.  

I would still like to hear what interesting excuse, if any, he will have to offer (beyond pleading ignorance or non-involvement), but really, I don't want to try to convince anyone anymore.  Believe what you will and enjoy your swords~

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## Jeff Hagen

> Any respectable smith who is capable of producing fine quality swords and a fine quality polish would not need to -- and still more would not want to -- *steal* images of work done by another artisan and pass it off as his own.


I can understand why Zhang makes all calibers of blades, even if it does limit how well thought of he might be. I've got some friends in China and my fiancee's family is from Hong Kong. I can say one thing about China. It's like being in the US in the 80's except FAR worse. Greed is the one underlying motive of a good large portion of things there.

Here we have bladesmiths that make good works in order to ahve a good name for themselves, and create a legacy in one way or another.

There the bladesmiths want a legacy in American dollars. (I am generalizing   here, so I'm sure there are exceptions). 

That being said, if high quality will bring in the dollars then he will make high quality. 

As for the stolen pictures... I already have one sword on order with him since September. It's a bit late to cancel it considering it ships in 2 days. I'll get this sword and post a review of the quality of the blade. As for future orders, the would depend on the caliber of answer we get for the stolen pictures. I won't buy from someone that steals pictures... I am going to wait for an official answer. I would ask Nico to post the reply email about the pictures in it's entirety, un-edited so we can all see exactly what the smith has  to say. It might be the only chance Zhang has of redeeming his good standing on SFI.

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## Timo Qvintus

> So far, all I see from Zhang's lower-end are sub-Masahiro level blades and copied fittings and mediocre/poor mounting.


I think I've asked this before, but have you actually SEEN any of Zhang's swords in person? I do agree, though, that low-end Zhi-swords do not appeal to me at all.




> I would still like to hear what interesting excuse, if any, he will have to offer (beyond pleading ignorance or non-involvement), but really, I don't want to try to convince anyone anymore.  Believe what you will and enjoy your swords~


I want to hear that too. And I will enjoy.  :Big Grin:

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## Nico Weyers

Oh golly guys.  I do think that a lot goes missing in translation!  Remember, Zhang is from an entirely different world.  But, I am not trying to make excuses for him.  I haven't been able to reach him now for over a week.  

Once I've spoken to him, I will let you all know what he says - un-edited.  :Smilie:

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## Sean Stonebridge

Wide awake here Joo and using my brain (As we all are)  :Wink: 

------------- 

Inasmuch as passing judgement, favouring, or possessing an enthusiastic perception per Zhi's swords and wares I'd tend to err on the side of caution regarding dismissing his use of pictures as some kind of attempt to possibly hoodwink prospective customers. Unless it can be proven.  We know nothing of the original intent behind the use of the pictures, nor how well linked his business is with other - better known - facilities and passing derogatory remarks regarding unproven assumptions could just jump up and bite us on the backsides if the badmouthing is proven wrong, or unjustified.

I'd gather facts first, because  making assumptions without proof can tend to be extremely damaging to a person's business and reputation and it's best to know the FACTS before passing judgement.

Here's one possible view point.

In years past, my speciality field of work covered cathedral and high end stone work as a cutter, carver and fixer journeyman stonemason, finally rising to foreman (At a young age) before I chose to join the armed forces.  It basically amounted to my travelling around the British Isles through involvement in carrying out work on variously sized contracts encompassing high quality stone work, but I also carried out work on small garden walls, house extensions, etc..  They were smaller budgetted and fairly insignificant works - in comparison to cathedral work and depending upon your perspective - but none the less involving the use of elemeents of my skills as a mason. 

Zhi is basically doing just the same kind of thing.  He's carrying out work and filling a niche by utilising his skills and workforce to the benefit of his own business.  Some choose to specialise in one solitary area, be it high, middle or low, but he's chosen to cover all bases.  It may prove that he's involved in high end work within his own region, but using lower end / beginner blades as a kind of gateway and method of building a customer base in the west.  Time will tell, but dismissing his work outright is foolhardy to say the least.

Better wraps and hardware needed, but a little work (On my part) has certainly raised the blade - in my possession to the next level.  :Wink:

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## Joo-Hwan Lee

Sean, the facts are already there in front of you.  You just don't want to see them.  This, despite the stolen images being posted under the title in all-caps "OUR CRAFTWORK DISPLAY."  Maybe you missed that?

First, you hypothesized that the stolen images could be well-lit sample shots of Zhang swords.  Now, even after their actual origins have been revealed, you still insist that more facts are needed.  "Foolhardy," indeed.

And ironically, immediately after asking for facts, you provide your own speculation about his intentions and business model.  You don't seem to be erring on the side of caution as much as on the side of hope and wishful thinking....  As for me, I don't expect much more than a lousy "I didn't put up the ad; my employee/distributor did.  He/she has been reprimanded."  

Nothing in Fred Chen/Huanuo's line of swords resemble any of the swords produced by Zhang.  Not a single one.  One FC "trademark" is their bo-hi termination.  The kissaki profiles are also different.  I could go on, but suffice to say that I think you're really reaching if you are willing to believe that Zhang could be linked with Huanuo.    

And lastly, I still maintain that a self-proclaimed master-smith's handiwork -- hailing from a region whose sword making legacy stretches back 2,600 years (his words, not mine) and with "several experienced masters who are experts in forging, polishing and engraving" -- should be evident even among his low-end products.  

If you're happy with your sword, that's great for you.

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## Joo-Hwan Lee

> I have no doubt Zhi can craft higher end swords, but the adoption of placing an emphasis on quantity over quality can be a big mistake in terms of the level of craftsmanship necessary for a work team to consistantly forge useable blades.  It normally proves best to produce quality and aim for quantity once the team has perfected the relevant process applications than risk one's reputation by purveying a mass of what could be construed as third rate products.


I thought this was an excellent point.


> [Zhang could be using] lower end / beginner blades as a kind of gateway and method of building a customer base in the west.


Bad idea?  I think so.  Covering all bases?  Maybe.  Or maybe betting on the fact that no one in their right mind is likely to ask him for a $2K+ blade any time soon~   :Wink: 

By the way, Sean, what kind of yokote was forged into your hira zukuri blade?

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## Nico Weyers

I'm not trying to pick a fight or any such.  I'm honestly just curious as to how Paul Chen, Last Legend, Masahiro and other firms that produce katanas started out...   Anybody know?

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## Joonas Lonnback

Joo is right in that it does say " OUR CRAFTWORK  DISPLAY" right above the
pictures that are supposedly of their katana blades, but also found on other pages. Is it absolutely certain that these blades have not been made by Zhang though? Perhaps someone had his zhang blade polished .. or maybe another site is using Zhangs picture? 

I'm not taking sides in this - I just thought those points are good to consider. People are after all very statisfied with products Zhang has delivered - if I have understood right, they are better than many more established brands in the same price range.

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## Nico Weyers

The biggest problem is that people are running Zhang down without even a hint of an explanation from him!

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## Sean Stonebridge

Joo,

I tend to err on the side of giving a person / business the benefit of doubt rather than making the decision to condemn him / her without a given opportunity to provide feedback and explanation.  Give Zhi an opportunity to reply and then pass judgement.

Do you honestly feel it's necessary to act and react in such a condescending manner?  I don't wish to have any part in any argument, but such a derisive attitude doesn't suit you or this conversation.

There are better things to do in life than rely upon wishful thinking regarding something I've no vested interest in and I honestly feel your attitude to others is bang out of order.  My main interest lays with high end swords and swordsmithing (As you should already know) and not budget blades.  Indeed the only budget offerings in my possession were bought as gifts by family, with one exception being a Tony Long blade.  It was picked up due to curiosity.

Perhaps I should pick up a few Fred Chen, etc., (Budget) blades?  Then I'd be familiar with an element which appears to be colouring your judgements.  

Is there anything wrong in speculating possibilities and making an offering as an addition to what's supposed to be a constructive conversation?

---------------

Hi Nico,

They all basically began at the bottom of the heap and worked upward to reach the point they're at now.  Just like any other business.  :Wink:  

----------

The kissaki was originally forged in as a chu-kissaki (Rounded fukura), with flat ko-shinogi running parallel to kissaki.  Yokote was correctly positioned and adequately polished, but lines had been smoothed out a little and needed re-working.

----------

----------


## Joo-Hwan Lee

I don't think that my "attitude" is "bang out of order" and I am certainly not being condescending.  I am sure that you and others like yourself will continue to read into my words what you will, despite the fact that I have written everything quite calmly and reasonably -- although just because you are frustrated at being unable to respond effectively shouldn't be reason enough to take comfort in accusing me of such things (which is, in any case, quite irrelevant).

Anyway, your blade is not a hira zukuri.  It's a typical shinogi zukuri.

Also, if I am proven wrong in my opinion about Zhang and his swords, I will be the first to admit it.  I have no problem admitting it when I am wrong.  I do not think the same could be said for many others in this thread--  

Is there anything wrong in speculating possibilities and making an offering as an addition to what's supposed to be a constructive conversation?  No, unless you have a completely different understanding of what "constructive conversation" means.  Hopefully you will be able to see that the act of speculating essentially remains same regardless of whether one is defending or criticizing Zhang, except the burden of proof is entirely on the former at this point (and the latter does not have to use nearly as much imagination).

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## Joonas Lonnback

> Hopefully you will be able to see that the act of speculating essentially remains same regardless of whether one is defending or criticizing Zhang, except the burden of proof is entirely on the former at this point.


Agreed - In my personal opinion its at the least suspicious to use pictures that appear elsewhere, while claiming they are your own. I give Zhang the benefit of doubt because people like his work, but to be honest, even in my unschooled eyes atleast a couple of the images look very different from all his other pictures. Granted, not all pictures need to, nor should look alike, but the contrast is so huge it yells aloud that the picture hasn't been taken by the same person. 

On the bright side, it is good that curiosities (at this point) like this are discovered, and people want to ask Zhang about it. Come on people, atleast we will know the truth, be it positive or negative.  :Wink:

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## Timo Qvintus

> Is there anything wrong in speculating possibilities and making an offering as an addition to what's supposed to be a constructive conversation?


Well, in your first post in this thread you called Zhang's swords "Bottom-of-the-barrel". There was no speculation, no basis for your opinion, no nothing. And it certainly wasn't constructive. You are a long-time member of SFI and have a high post-count, thus any newcomer might take your word as granted (I know I did when I first came on SFI).

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## Tomaz Lazar

Joo, you've made some good points but you also seem to know an awful lot about a brand that you apparently have no personal experience with whatsoever. Since you can get a low-end Zhi so cheaply, why not finally put your money where your mouth is? You can test and abuse the sword as much as you like and when (if) it fails, you will be free to write a review and critize as much as you want.

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## Joo-Hwan Lee

> Joo, you've made some good points but you also seem to know an awful lot about a brand that you apparently have no personal experience with whatsoever. Since you can get a low-end Zhi so cheaply, why not finally put your money where your mouth is? You can test and abuse the sword as much as you like and when (if) it fails, you will be free to write a review and critize as much as you want.


Good lord, if owning a particular sword was a requisite for making informed and informative comments, then SFI -- especially the Nihonto forum and such fora dealing with antique arms -- would be VERY silent indeed.  

[sarcasm for the sake of humor]In fact, everyone who has ever commented on any sword without handling it first should just be quiet and go home.  I mean, who are these folks anyway to compliment Rick Barrett or Keith Larman when they post their latest projects and triumphs?  Obviously these guys cannot know what on earth they're talking about without ever having owned anything by them[/sarcasm for the sake of humor].

Now, that's kind of silly, don't you think?

For the cost of a low-end Zhi, I'd rather have a nice meal somewhere~

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## Joo-Hwan Lee

> Well, in your first post in this thread you called Zhang's swords "Bottom-of-the-barrel". There was no speculation, no basis for your opinion, no nothing. And it certainly wasn't constructive. You are a long-time member of SFI and have a high post-count, thus any newcomer might take your word as granted (I know I did when I first came on SFI).


I disagree.  I think my comment was constructive insofar as I believe I was steering the guy in a better direction.  

You are right that the "bottom of the barrel" comment deserved some elaboration; I probably shouldn't have used those words.  At the same time, I didn't think it was necessary to add much more than to say "look elsewhere" when clearly the thread-starter was looking for "THE" sword.  My bad~

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## Sean Stonebridge

Joo,

Who on earth's frustrated?  Get a life and pick a fight with someone else lad.

You're still being condescending (Get a dictionary), brash, more confrontational than necessary and fast becoming part of what is proving to be a growing problem within SFI.  You're not "speculating possiblities" by virtue of the fact you've chosen to pass judgement (Based on limited and un-confirmed information), whilst stating so in a very demeaning and derisive manner.  

Very abrasive. 

If you have a problem, take it to PM or confront me in person, but let's drop the insinuations regarding Zhi, because if he proves to be other than you've so far implied you're leaving yourself wide open to litigation, with a great deal of egg on your face.

---------- 

The blade in my possession is indeed shinogi zukuri and not hira zukuri, which was a typo on my part, an unfortunate error and not meant to mislead in any way.

----------

----------


## Joo-Hwan Lee

> Joo,
> 
> Who on earth's frustrated?  Get a life and pick a fight with someone else lad.
> 
> You're still being condescending (Get a dictionary), brash, more confrontational than necessary and fast becoming part of what is proving to be a growing problem within SFI.  You're not "speculating possiblities" by virtue of the fact you've chosen to pass judgement (Based on limited and un-confirmed information), whilst stating so in a very demeaning and derisive manner.  
> 
> Very abrasive. 
> 
> If you have a problem with me, take it to PM, but let's drop the insinuations regarding Zhi, because if he proves to be other than you've so far implied you're leaving yourself wide open to litigation, with a great deal of egg on your face.
> ...


Oh dear~  Who is picking a fight with whom?  I'm not the one who is lashing out by saying "Get a life."  I'm certainly not the one who has resorted to _ad hominem_ attacks.  Who is frustrated?  Why, you are.   :Wink:   Stop while you're ahead, _lad_.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Litigation?  Oh, PLEASE.  And I have no problem admitting that I was wrong if it can be so proven~  You see, Sean, actually having a life means that I can admit such things here without letting it ruin my day; and it also means that I feel no desire to PM you whatsoever~  though you would have been better off taking your own advice.

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## Glen C.

> I'm not trying to pick a fight or any such.  I'm honestly just curious as to how Paul Chen, Last Legend, Masahiro and other firms that produce katanas started out...   Anybody know?


Hi Nico,

I don't know if you have done much research on this of your own but there is some lore out there. You might even start with reading the front page at http://swordforum.com

I could go gather a bunch of bookmarks and search results that would answer some of your question. I'll say this, the history of Hanwei and that Paul Chen is not very hard to find. Paul Chen of Cheness as well. Last Legend? They have a web presence as well.

You might want to start individual threads for your inquiries. Discussing it here will only deflect the focus of this thread and underline the fact that several participating (not just you) in this thread know quite little about how the Chinese imports have evolved. There have been more than a few threads on this board discussing it.

Cheers

Hotspur; _How many would rather not learn to learn? How many are getting stuck on the same chapter? How many times can search engines be suggested?_

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## M.K. Ridgeway

> Sorry Joo, didn't mean to offend you. That's why the smiley was there.. I'd better use [sarcasm][/sarcasm] tags in the future.
> 
> Re the pics.. My father has his own company and he'd be ****ing furious if someone took pictures from his workshop and posted them on the net,




    I'm sorry, but this doesn't hold water. The process of forging and polishing a sword isn't a closely guarded secret , it's almost common knowlege.

  Other companies, almost to a man, release videos and photos and information about the forging process of their swords. They want to tell you about the process , to up consumer confidence in the brand.

  Even Zhang, on his auctions,displays photos from his factory.

  The fact is that Zhang is using low end allow fittings used by everyone from Masahiro , to Wukatana , to Badtrack, to Katana 1980 .

   I agree with Joo that there seems to be "a cult of Zhang" within which his devout seek to defend and justify every act, indeed even to testify and evangelize to the unconverted.

  Reminds me a bit of me with my Masahiro Bamboo.

  But let's keep in mind that my Bamboo cost 60 bucks , and  is one sword out of 15 in a collection of higher end swords.

   I'm sorry, but every photo I've seen of a Zhang katana looks like a customized Masahiro.

  Still there is that one fabulous Jian....

----------


## M.K. Ridgeway

> Joo is right in that it does say " OUR CRAFTWORK  DISPLAY" right above the
> pictures that are supposedly of their katana blades, but also found on other pages. Is it absolutely certain that these blades have not been made by Zhang though? Perhaps someone had his zhang blade polished .. or maybe another site is using Zhangs picture? 
> 
> .


  I'm sorry but Aoi art simply is not stealing a Zhang image and portraying it as antique nihonto...and Fred Chen is established, and has no need to steal photos..besides most off us can recognize Fred Chen work when we see it.

  SEAN :  

     I have to agree that we must err on the side of caution when dealing with an issue which can negatively impact a man's business.

    I also agree that Zhang may have great talent. What I know about Jians is very little ...but several of them look very nice...

  Could it be Zhang is just entering the lucrative world of katana , and has not yet "honed his chops"?

  The obvious answer is Zhang needs to log on . explain the pictures, and post some photos of his own high end work.

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## Tomaz Lazar

"Good lord, if owning a particular sword was a requisite for making informed and informative comments, then SFI -- especially the Nihonto forum and such fora dealing with antique arms -- would be VERY silent indeed."

And perhaps that is the way it should be instead of a lot of people making a lot of speculations. You can twist words as much as you like but my question still stands.

Joo, who are you to criticize Zhi swords? You have never handled one. You know nothing about the manufacturer, you have not seen their workshop, yet you know all about their products. On top of that, you have the nerve to make quite insulting remarks and offend a lot of people on a public forum.

I agree that many newcomers tend to speak of cheap swords in unrealistically favorable terms, having no other standards to compare them to. I also agree that all the secrecy around manufacturing processes and stolen images is quite disturbing.

Then again, this is no excuse for ferociously pursuing your personal crusade, especially considering your absolute lack of any tangible experience with this particular brand. We can all start throwing around our academic qualifications, experience, references and whatnot. The fact remains you cannot seriously judge a product that you have never handled.

Now you can have a nice meal somewhere and forget all about Zhi. But you will not achieve anything with your tone and ignorance aside from making a fool of yourself. 

P.S.: My newly made up Hagakure maxim:

Usually when a man gets too anal in real life he is invited to step out, roll up the sleeves and settle the argument in the alley. This fact should be understood with regard to people's conduct.  :Ninja Master:   :Wink:

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## Glen C.

Zhang has talent? Maybe as a businessman. As we continue to postulate. here are some random samplings from the past.

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=53212

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=59265

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=60051

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=67805

Now, the reference by Paul of Cheness regarding rolling mills might make some take note. Add to that another (not too obscure) reference to rolling mills being used in China to "forge" swords. Also previously related was that fittings supply in China is pretty limited, thus the items appearing on more than a few "forges" items. Basically like making noodles in a pasta machine.

One of those threads does relate a snippet or two from Lance Chan, who has dealt with the source. Being based in Hong Kong, his customers may see even more value. His impression remains; "You be the judge". His hardness testing seems to 
fall in line with one dissapointed Zhang customer, who had recently posted in the Beginner's forum. Can you get better from Zhang for more money? Some seem to think so but it's rather narrowminded not to put it in proper perspective.

In the end, folk are going to buy what they are going to buy. The original premise of this thread was an inquiry from someone that already has some expectations. The Zhang swords may fill a need for others. The only advantage I can see (and this is just my observation) that Zhang purchases offer is election of spending more as you go. At that, only truly an advantage if one is buying into the premise that Zhang can do it better for less. 

Cheers

Hotspur; _Power hammers and rolling mills are not really technological breakthroughs. More than a few use them to fold billets._

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## Timo Qvintus

> The obvious answer is Zhang needs to log on . explain the pictures, and post some photos of his own high end work.


I talked to Zhang about SFI a while back (on an unrelated matter) and he said he occasionally browses the forum but doesn't log on. I don't know if it has to do with his written-English skills or not. I hope Nico can help him here. 

And I agree, I'd like to get some good quality photos of Zhang's high-end and expert opinions on them.

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## Joo-Hwan Lee

Tomaz, 

I made my points in a concise, logical way.  If the force of my words and thoughts had a weight of their own, then that's fine by me.  It's quite another thing to accuse me of deliberately insulting anyone unprovoked.  If people like you would be able to distinguish between your own emotional reactions and frustrations (which you are projecting onto me) and my actual state of mind, then I would not need someone to tell me that I am being angry.  Irritated?  Mildly amused?  Sure.  In fact, I think I explained myself quite well, despite all the irrelevant nonsense thrown my way.  Things that needed to be said, and others have agreed with me both here and in private.  And until proven wrong, I'll stand by what I've gathered about this product.  

If I am guilty of offending the Zhi fans, then so be it~  He offends me with unethical advertising.  You offend me with this hysterical tantrum.  Who am I?  Why, only the guy to actually connect the dots that several others drew.  Though it may not be modest, I daresay I know plenty enough about production swords, enough to know at a glance who made what -- you will note that I am actually the one who knew the origin of one of the pictures in question.  Shall I list for you the all the swords I have owned and handled and their makers whether production, custom, and antique?  How many of you honestly looked through his eBay ads in the past without suspecting a thing?  

What "absolute lack of tangible evidence"?  Take another look at his eBay ads.  Take a look at the fact that images has been taken from another well-established maker and put on his site.  Compare his blades against the blades by this other maker.  What more do you and the other Zhi believers want??  What other proof would satisfy you?   :Confused: 

Alas, I have never claimed to "know everything" about Zhang and his swords and his company.  I think I know more than enough, however, to say that his blades in no way resemble the blades by another maker, that the fittings are cheap copies of of yet another completely unrelated maker, that the mounting is done very poorly, that the bo-hi termination seems off, and so-on.  

Roll up my sleeves and do what now in an alley?  What is this, grade school?  Violence and personal attacks seem to be the first refuge of the irrational and insecure.  Did I start it by commenting that the Zhi fans are not thinking with their brains anymore?  Perhaps.  But it is quite clear that several are still not.  If it were otherwise, then you and others like yourself would be able to stick to the issue rather than choosing to make such irrelevant attacks, and I would not need to write this response.  If you must insist on the "fighting" metaphor  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  then I tell you that you should not be a sore loser and don't get involved if you can't face losing.  I have no problem admitting I was wrong; and at this point, it would take a pretty fantastic explanation from Zhang for that to happen.  Can you even deal with the fact that you might have made a mistake about Zhang without blowing up at the guy who is pointing it out to you?

Whether you can understand it right now or not, I'm not the one who needs to defend himself here.  The burden of proof is no longer with me.  If you really cannot see that, then this is really a waste of everyone's time.

Stop with the personal attacks.  If you want to show me how and why I am actually wrong in my statements, then do so.  Write a reply that's worth considering seriously beyond calling me a meany head.  Otherwise, stop harassing me.

----------


## M.K. Ridgeway

> Zhang has talent? Maybe as a businessman.


   Ha Ha , Glen...you quoted me on the one thing in this thread I wouldn't want to be quoted on...

  Personally the Zhi sword offerings look like stuffings to me...but I'm throwing a bone to those who wish to give the benefit of the doubt.

 I do rather like the looks of one Jian...but what I know about Jian can fit in a fuchi.

  Time will tell on the Zhi/Zhang situation, but my guess is we will find another huckster seperating American consumers from their money,while infringing on a few copyrights along the way.





> Usually when a man gets too anal in real life he is invited to step out, roll up the sleeves and settle the argument in the alley. This fact should be understood with regard to people's conduct.


   Now this ,Tomaz, goes a little to far and smacks of a threat rather than a discussion. Do you think Zhang would fight to defend your honor?

----------


## Timo Qvintus

Guys, cool it down.. I know some take this stuff very seriously but they are only production swords.. 




> Time will tell on the Zhi/Zhang situation, but my guess is we will find another huckster seperating American consumers from their money,while infringing on a few copyrights along the way.


*American* consumers..?  :EEK!:  We Europeans don't count is that it?  :Wink:   :Stick Out Tongue:  Kidding. Anyway, you're right on money with the "time will tell" part. And hey, at least Zhang doesn't use J.Williams video-clips on his auctions..  :Big Grin:

----------


## Joo-Hwan Lee

> Guys, cool it down.. I know some take this stuff very seriously but they are only production swords...


Well said.  Thanks, Timo.   :Smilie:

----------


## M.K. Ridgeway

> Guys, cool it down.. I know some take this stuff very seriously but they are only production swords.. 
> 
> 
> 
> *American* consumers..?  We Europeans don't count is that it?   Kidding. Anyway, you're right on money with the "time will tell" part. And hey, at least Zhang doesn't use J.Williams video-clips on his auctions..



  True enough...apologies to the Euros...I'm used to Americans being the fools parted from their money...In this case Europe is a better Market, as much of Europe has less options in Japanese style swords to choose from...

----------


## les yeich

i'm surprised this thread has gone so long without my noticing it, hehe. having at one time been one of the practicing "production kat" experts around here, i'll go ahead and throw my own two cents out there.

i got to handle several swords from zhang and masahiro as well as the new generation ll swords all side by side in october at the tulsa gun show. the ll blades (not the pro series) were head and shoulders above the other two afore-mentioned brands. the pro, masahiro, and zhi blades are all what i consider to be sub-par, and i _suspect_ are all from the same forge. luckily i have some previous experience with one of the brands, so i'm able to have a slightly broader base to form my opinions on. the thing with this forge(s) is that they are extremely, let me repeat; _extremely_ hit or miss. one blade might be really well made and have a decent sugata on it, the next might be wavy and have an extremely soft edge. sometimes there will be a really nice sugata with a soft edge, etc.. the possibilites seem to go on, and i've heard them all (most are here if one cares to do a search.). i am unfortunately unable to give my full opinion at this time, as i've really gone towards custom stuff, and these sort of blades frankly don't keep my interest long enough to form a solid opinion. what i _can_ say is more of a re-iteration; you get what you pay for. time and time again it's proven true. zhi's advertising unfortunately puts a very dark stain on his brand's name, even moreso than the infamously bombastic advertising of the early ll stuff (which has thankfully abated somewhat. . .). the fit and finish and fittings on the zhi swords i've encountered, be they here on sfi, some other forum, or in person, were typically unacceptable for anything outside of display. i realize there is a market for such blades, but that's testament more to the ever-increasing cheap attitude of noob buyers, rather than the quality of the sword. i won't say that there aren't blades out there from zhi that aren't worth a remount and a little appreciation, but without having it in hand and being _damned_ impressed, i can say with absolute authority that it will be a cold day in hell before i send my money to one of these brands, who are way more interested in squeezing a buck or two out of unfortunately uneducated sword nuts than they are in producing a good sword. in all reality- and i don't mind at all being labeled a snob for saying so- these blades really aren't worth more than the ss sols that were so popular 5+ years ago from united cutlery, et al. 

if my opinion doesn't mean anything to some of you, let me just end with this question; are there any really respected, experienced practitioners of any jsa out there using and applauding these swords?

----------


## Joonas Lonnback

> i can say with absolute authority that it will be a cold day in hell before i send my money to one of these brands,


I can happily inform you that I asked my friend Svein-Gunnar who lives in Hell (Just outside Trondheim, in Norway) and its about 2 degrees celcius there today.. =)




So which one are you buying? =)

...

On a serious note, I really respect your point of view.

----------


## M.K. Ridgeway

[IMG][/IMG]

   This is a $2399 Zhi sword from here. http://www.zhangsword.com/production...224/ZH0224.htm

   note that it has an even fancier 13 stage polish...

   Compare to this, which just sold for $660 from James Raw

[IMG][/IMG]



  There can be no comparison

----------


## Clarito L. Zapanta

> if my opinion doesn't mean anything to some of you, let me just end with this question; are there any really respected, experienced practitioners of any jsa out there using and applauding these swords?





i agree with les,. . especially with his question regarding any respected, and experienced practioners of jsa using and applauding these swords

----------


## Joo-Hwan Lee

> [IMG][/IMG]
> 
>    This is a $2399 Zhi sword from here. http://www.zhangsword.com/production...224/ZH0224.htm
> 
>    note that it has an even fancier 13 stage polish...
> 
>    Compare to this, which just sold for $660 from James Raw
> 
> [IMG][/IMG]
> ...


Also consider this mumei Nihonto from the Muromachi period, nagasa 28.15'' which comparatively costs "only" $2565 (it's pretty cheap for a well-preserved antique).  A mere difference in price of $165 from the Zhang.

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/katana/06300.html

Needs to be remounted and maybe a fresh "touch-up" polish~  But what the hey.   :Smilie: 

A Koto "Sadakiyo": http://yakiba.com/kat_mumei2.htm  also "only" $2199.  $200 cheaper than the Zhang.

Pretty healthy blade with good amount of boshi.  And the tsuba is particularly pretty, I think.

Such examples abound, but my point is made.  I agree with MK.  No comparison.

----------


## Nico Weyers

I deleted this post.  It would have caused offence and I am sorry.  I'm off to bed.

----------


## M.K. Ridgeway

> All I want for Christmas is for the nice, friendly, helpful *ADULTS* of SFI to return.  
> 
> Honestly, the fighting, bickering and whining in here is nauseating.  I cannot believe it.  I scanned the thread carefully and as far as I was able to tell, nobody forced anybody else at gunpoint to sell every nihonto on their kake and buy a Zhi Sword.  You bloody well fight more than my 2 and 4 year old children!  These insults and flaming has honestly gone far enough.  If I were a moderator....


   And yet you join the frey, with a similarly insulting post...



> It started off with a picture that could well have been some misunderstanding or cultural thing.  I will find out and let you know.


  Come on now...a "cultural thing?" 

  Let's not be naive.

 Sean's idea of affiliation with Huanuo is the only viable excuse for a misunderstanding in my mind...and that's rather thin since one of the pictures is an antique nihonto from Aoi Art 

   We've all seen similar eBay sellers using pictures of James Williams of Bugei,or PPK's in their auctions...this is likely something similar.





> at it is a week  Until then, here's a gem of fatherly advice:
> 
> There are some who like Zhi Sword and some who don't.  *Accept it and grow up!*


  see , here's that insult slinging again...

  Noone is going to lose any sleep over anyone liking Zhi Sword...but those who do seem almost fanatical in their support...

   The only thing I've seen or heard about Zhi that makes me remotely interested is Sean's words.

  Everyone who "dislikes " Zhi Sword is simply someone with more experience and knowlege trying to help others grow and become more discerning in sword appreciation.

----------


## Nico Weyers

MK Ridgeway, I am sorry.  I deleted my post because it was suggested that it is unnecesary and would just stoke fires - which I agree with and thus my reason for deleting it.  Could you maybe delete my quote?  I am sorry for a rubbish post.

----------


## les yeich

it wasn't a rubbish post. *shrug*. everyone has a right to an opinion, right? it's just sometimes the discenting opinion sparks something in supporters; it's rarely the other way around. just keep in mind no one is here to try and put zhi out of business or anything, to quote mk:




> Everyone who "dislikes " Zhi Sword is simply someone with more experience and knowlege trying to help others grow and become more discerning in sword appreciation.

----------


## Tomaz Lazar

I don't know why anyone would call me a fan. If you look at the older threads I did review a sword by Zhi quite sincerely (together with a hardness test) and pointed out the deficiencies. I do not advocate the brand and I am not even saying that these swords are a good buy. But I have been able to form my opinion on the basis of personal experience with the brand. As for grade school, the only really childish thing about this thread is the expert who considers himself an authority on Zhi without ever handling one of their swords. 

I have zero illusions about business realities and Chinese swordmakers but I also believe it's important to approach their products with an open mind. It's easy to look smart, jumping on the art sword bandwagon and dismissing any blade that wasn't made by Yoshindo or Rick Barrett as junk. It takes a little bit more effort to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes to cheaper swords. Which can after all be a satisfactory bargain sometimes, to some people (e.g. Masahiro Bamboo).

----------


## Timo Qvintus

Here's one for Tomaz and Les; I'm trying to determine a common ground for what we're talking about here.

Tomaz, what was your opinion on the fittings on your Zhang? Were they upgraded (hand made) or cast alloy ones? Would you consider them usable?

Les, what range of Zhang's were on display is that show; low-end, mid-range or high-end? What kind of fittings were they, upgraded (hand made) or cast alloy ones? How would you compare the koshirae to, say, low-end to mid-range Cheness or Hanwei? I understand these aren't your main interest but I'd like something for a frame of reference.

Les, your idea of Zhang's blades actually coming from a same forge as some other brand's blades is interesting and could be a reason why Zhang doesn't want to publish photos from his sword-making process. On the other hand, do the other brands offer customization of swords like Zhang does?

One more thing Les, could you further explain this "hit and miss" of Zhang swords? I would assume you have a broader experience on them than just one or two swords to form such an opinion; was there an actual display of variety of Zhang's swords and by whom (company or private)? Or were you referring to Zhang, Masahiro and LL in general?

----------


## Sean Stonebridge

:Big Grin:  


> Oh dear~  Who is picking a fight with whom?  I'm not the one who is lashing out by saying "Get a life."  I'm certainly not the one who has resorted to _ad hominem_ attacks.  Who is frustrated?  Why, you are.    Stop while you're ahead, _lad_. 
> 
> Litigation?  Oh, PLEASE.  And I have no problem admitting that I was wrong if it can be so proven~  You see, Sean, actually having a life means that I can admit such things here without letting it ruin my day; and it also means that I feel no desire to PM you whatsoever~  though you would have been better off taking your own advice.



Joo,

I've an extremely happy family, home and social life with a high degree of financial security and independancy, thank you very much.   :Big Grin:   If ever I do feel a need to air any supposed frustrations / accusations (You've wrongly presumed to assume something again) I tend to utilise the correct use of grammar alongside tact. Items akin to ?, !, etc., come in very useful at times.  :Wink:  

Try not to take yourself so seriously.  I certainly don't, but your repetitive use of sarcasm and insistance tends to confirm a reliance upon the use of put-downs with an apparently brash air of condescension regarding others and their views.  

You're standing on very uneven ground inasmuch as passing - as yet - unsubstantiated and unconfirmed accusations in a public fora, with a highly realistic risk of litigation via Zhi.

Being tracked down and served a high court writ does have a tendancy to ruin a person's day.  There are old pilots and bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots.

-------------

----------


## Skip Gardner

Just an update.  Mr.Zhang is now aware of this issue and I hope to hear from him soon.  As to my katana, it will ship after Christmas as the polish is not yet complete.  Sure is nice being able to get quick responses to my emails  :Smilie:   As for the delay,...   well, after reading several posts here regarding extensive delays, I would feel foolish for complaining about a few extra days.  
  I know this is becoming a heated issue, but I would like to once again put forth my offer to ship my katana to a qualified person ( conus ) and have them perform a review.  Sean,  are you in the USA ?

Edit;  I see you are not  :Frown:     Well  Maybe some one local to me here in Western WA might be interested in taking a first hand look ....???   Sorry Sean

----------


## M.K. Ridgeway

Several moderators are in your neck of the woods...

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## Skip Gardner

Thank you M.K.   I would greatly appriciate any of the local persons to accept my offer.  I will deliver or ship.


Now, I have been speaking with Mr.Zhang and first would like to explain the delay in my katana.  They forged 3 blades before Mr.Zhang was happy with the results, and now my katana is in the polish/sharpening process.  Not bad for a production blade IMO  :Smilie:  

As to the pictures, here is Mr.Zhangs response.   You tell me what this means.   I understand it just fine.

"you can tell them, zhang family can forge that blade .  some blades pictures not under blue background were my friend sent me , the blades seem is zhou zhen wu family . but i can't assure .  we can forge that blade .  not misleading "

I would quote my earlier response to the question as to why these pictures are on his site, but doesnt seem it would matter to some.   But you should all take into account that I have been emailing and messaging with Mr.Zhang over the last 4 months and yes, I do feel I have a pretty good read on him.   

Those that are firmly anti Zhi will not even consider this, while I'm sure those of us who wish to give this company a chance will.   

At this time, I would like to say again that I am not so much defending the quality of product as I am the quality of person who I am dealing with.  Mr.Zhang has been honost with me from the begining and this is no small thing.  I asked for a hamon style I wanted and he was honost and said that at this time it was not possible.  He was quick to point out that the cast alloy fittings were low end, and that others were available but would obviously cost more.  My choice.   I went for brass.  Not hand made, but not cheap alloy either.   I specified NO etched hamon.  And now he ( Zhi Swords ) has forged not one or two, but three blades to acheive what I have asked for.  He will be sending me some video's of some of the process soon.  Will I be able to share these?  No idea.  If I can, I will.  If he asks me not to, I wont.

I do plan on telling Mr.Zhang that he should edit his page to indicate that the blade pictures in question are indeed not his product, but examples of what CAN be made.

For those of you that are only attempting to educate and inform, I wish to thank you.   I truly believe for the most part all that is being asked of us Noobs is to LEARN.  Dont simply grab the lowest cost blade and think we are now collectors.  Joo has many very valid points and the obvious history and experience to back up his convictions.  Sean as well seems to be in the "know" and his opinions are valid as well.  As to us noobs....   well....   I think I need to read more, type less, and continue to improve my collection.

Thanks all,
Skip

----------


## Timo Qvintus

Thanks for the clarification Skip, and your progress report.

I'll add some smilies here so what I'm about to write doesn't come across as too negative.. 

[ :Smilie:   :Smilie:   :Smilie:   :Smilie:   :Smilie:  ]About the pics. I think it's not a question of whether or not Zhang can forge a sword like that, but whether or not Zhang has forged a blade like that or indeed, the very same blade. Until someone goes ahead and orders that very blade and gets what he/she ordered then the picture shouldn't be there, no matter how close friend he is to the guy who made it. If the text "here's what we can make on a custom order" is added to those pics (plus the origin of the pics and the copyright of the owner of them) it's OK by me. But I know some will be less tolerant..[/ :Smilie:   :Smilie:   :Smilie:   :Smilie:   :Smilie:  ]

----------


## Skip Gardner

Exactly Timo.  This is what I just conveyed to Mr.Zhang.  And no, I dont take what your saying as negative, just sound thinking  :Smilie:   I can see easily where having those pictures on his site will cause confusion and be viewed as missleading.  I think we will see at least some sort of change to the site soon.  I actually suggested that if not removed, a line above those pictures saying "We can forge this".  Is this accurate?  No idea.  I have not seen what they can do.  But at least there will be no confusion as to if they are claiming them as their own or using as an example.

----------


## M.K. Ridgeway

It's sort of like me saying I'm sleeping with Angelina Jolie ...because I could...if only she knew I existed...and let me...and drops the restraining order :Wink:   :drool:  

  Seriously though...Reality  is he pulled a fast one and got caught...best thing is admit it ...remove it ...and move on.

  I seriously don't think it will hurt his business... a certain purveyor has kept customers waiting for years for Chinese Katana  (many of them shobu) and yet people continue to order.

  Honestly,this Zhang is a canny business man.

    Respond quickly to emails...share "private information" with customers and make them feel privy to some insider status...

   Seems to work, certainly we have our share of Zhang faithfuls...willing to testify to the character of a man the've never met.

   Nothing like the art of the graft.

  Really, there's not much wrong with the lower end swords for their price range...Surely the equal of Ryumon , Furubushido,bushidoand Koto in the $99-$200 range.

   The oportunity to let the customer "customize " the sword,ala paartist, is good business...

  But the idea that these guys are producing custom swords anywhere near the $2000 price range is, at best ,laughable given the current evidence,including Zhangs on pictures of a $2300 sword.

   Honestly I'd take my Masahiro Bamboo over any of the Zhi swords I've seen...not to mention Oni Forge, Dynasty Forge, Hanwei...

  Forget customs... The Zhi pictures show nothing that comes close to an Oni Ukigumo or a Hanwei Tiger or Tori . 

  For us to even begin to compare these to a Raw , Sorrells or di Cristifano is insulting....

  But , you offer a viable $150 product...then dress one up and talk it up, and price it a two grand, and someone might pay rhe price...Worth a shot.

  Worst that can happen is you have to end up selling it for the $150 it's worth.

----------


## Timo Qvintus

I don't know diddly squat about high-end blades but I agree, the prices of Zhang's high-end are ridiculous. But the only one who has compared them to "Raw , Sorrells or di Cristifano" is you, MK..  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Joo-Hwan Lee

> I don't know diddly squat about high-end blades but I agree, the prices of Zhang's high-end are ridiculous. But the only one who has compared them to "Raw , Sorrells or di Cristifano" is you, MK..


Timo, by putting a certain price-tag on his high-end blades, Zhang himself has invited such comparisons.  Don't you agree?

As for his "explanation", it's even less than what I expected.  Sorry, Skip, but MK is right.  Zhang should just admit his wrongdoing and move on.  I could respect that, at least.

Nico, your deleted post actually seems quite relevant still.  I will do my part by ignoring further personal attacks thrown my way.  

So, in that spirit-- Sean, although your petty hysterics are really getting quite tiresome, you would really be better off taking your own highly hypocritical advice by sending a PM if you have a problem with me.  I won't bother to reply to anymore of your whiny tantrums here, so stop harassing me.

----------


## Sean Stonebridge

Joo,

Inasmuch as your accusations concerning "petty hysterics", "whiney tantrums", "taking your own hypocrytical advice", "stop harrassing me" are concerned ....... Let's just say your bravado and condescending attitude speaks volumes and shows you for what you really are.  Life's too short for anyone to even consider attempting to communicate with petty little individuals such as yourself.  I practise what I preach.  Do you?

Communication via PM was offered, but refused and the present situation will remain unchanged. 

Personal attacks? lol Simply passing and conveying observations, whilst returning a favour.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):   You're forgotten already  :Wink: 

---------------

Moving on

---------------

Hi Skip,

It's good to learn you've been able to communicate with Mr. Zhang, but a shame he's - so far - unable to rectify the present miss-understanding in a more direct manner.  Regardless of whether he'd used "borrowed" pictures or not, I believe there's a need for him to clarify the intent behind their use.  His name, prospective reputation and business have been placed in jeopardy by their use after all.

------------

Another massive problem with the pricing of Zhi's "high end $2k + custom" swords relates to the massive discrepancy between Chinese and western economies. With the average wage for Chinese production workers presently being the equivalent to £23 / $46 per week, doesn't their price label strike anyone as being extremely high?

Forge folded blade and full polish take a matter of two weeks - mostly depending upon the style being followed and potential "accidents" during quench.  Doesn't that equate to £46 / $92 + materials and overheads?  Custom made saya can cost virtually anything, but this depends heavily upon the materials applied during their manufacture and laquer work.  Add in whatever percentages you wish, but I still struggle to come to terms with folks willingness to spend such high amounts on production blades made in China or the Orient.

My wife produces individual sets of fully inlaid, high grade menuki, fuchi and koshira (Including mokume) for Nihonto within very short time frames and charges accordingly, but nowhere near the artificially high prices we find as Chinese made add-on's / spares through certain outlets.

----------


## Joo-Hwan Lee

> Let's just say your bravado and condescending attitude speaks volumes and shows you for what you really are.


Of course, your attitude has been nothing but exemplary.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  You began this whole nonsense when you realized that you couldn't actually win a debate while sticking to the issues.  Was it so hard for you to just admit that you're wrong?  What does that say about you, Sean?  


> Life's too short for anyone to even consider attempting to communicate with petty little individuals such as yourself.


Yet, here you are, insisting on your ugly and pathetic need to have the last word.  And again, with the name-calling.  Is this really called for? 


> I practise what I preach.


No, you do not.  Anyone here can see that.  And you seem to have an awful lot to say about a "forgotten" individual.  

Although I'm sure you'll give in to writing yet another crude response--  seriously, *enough* with the irrelevant name-calling and personal attacks.  Just stop.  Please.

Getting back to the actual point of the thread, the bottom line is that Zhang stole images from another source and has offered a deeply unsatisfactory explanation for his unethical behavior.  I stand vindicated in my judgment.

Case closed.

----------


## Sean Stonebridge

> Of course, your attitude has been nothing but exemplary.  You began this whole nonsense when you realized that you couldn't actually win a debate while sticking to the issues.  Was it so hard for you to just admit that you're wrong?  What does that say about you, Sean?  Yet, here you are, insisting on your ugly and pathetic need to have the last word.  And again, with the name-calling.  Is this really called for? No, you do not.  Anyone here can see that.  And you seem to have an awful lot to say about a "forgotten" individual.  
> 
> Although I'm sure you'll give in to writing yet another crude response--  seriously, *enough* with the irrelevant name-calling and personal attacks.  Just stop.  Please.
> 
> Getting back to the actual point of the thread, the bottom line is that Zhang stole images from another source and has offered a deeply unsatisfactory explanation for his unethical behavior.  I stand vindicated in my judgment.
> 
> Case closed.


 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):   lol judgement, I'm quaking in my boots.  Keep it flowing  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Skip Gardner

> Getting back to the actual point of the thread, the bottom line is that Zhang stole images from another source and has offered a deeply unsatisfactory explanation for his unethical behavior.  I stand vindicated in my judgment.
> 
> Case closed.


  I understand this is how you feel Joo, and clearly others as well.  I can respect that.  But, in all honosty, I dont feel you are "vindicated in your judgment".   You dont accept his response, but I do.   I have been speaking with him for months and feel I have a better take on his true intentions.  Like I posted before, he clearly did not put his name on those pictures, and for good reason.  He didnt make them. 
  As to the value / quality of his $2000 + plus products, again I have no clue.  I still feel I will be getting what I paid for ( $450 ) and this is fine by me.
  I can see now how it is important that those pictures simply be removed.  I will make this known to him and thats all I can do.   Better for him to only post what he has made.  

Skip

----------


## Angus Trim

Personal attacks, or even toned down to personal comments really aren't what SFI is about.......

Its quite alright to discuss the sword, but not to get personal with another poster whom you disagree with.....

Lets keep this thread on an even keel from now, it'd be a shame to lock it.....

----------


## M.K. Ridgeway

> ------------
> 
> Another massive problem with the pricing of Zhi's "high end $2k + custom" swords relates to the massive discrepancy between Chinese and western economies. With the average wage for Chinese production workers presently being the equivalent to £23 / $46 per week, doesn't their price label strike anyone as being extremely high?
> 
> .


  Sean...

    I hadn't even considered this...

 You are correct ...this $2399 seems now closer to 10,000 in relative terms

The koshirae certainly isn't where the money is going either...

----------


## M.K. Ridgeway

> I understand this is how you feel Joo, and clearly others as well.  I can respect that.  But, in all honosty, I dont feel you are "vindicated in your judgment".   You dont accept his response, but I do.   I have been speaking with him for months and feel I have a better take on his true intentions.  Like I posted before, he clearly did not put his name on those pictures, and for good reason.  He didnt make them. 
>   As to the value / quality of his $2000 + plus products, again I have no clue.  I still feel I will be getting what I paid for ( $450 ) and this is fine by me.
>   I can see now how it is important that those pictures simply be removed.  I will make this known to him and thats all I can do.   Better for him to only post what he has made.  
> 
> Skip


  To be honest , I think he didn't put his name on those pictures because he didn't know how to easily photoshop it on.

  The big red box around them with "copyright ZhiSword all rights reserverd " is the same thing .

 Honestly...You've been communicating with him for months and think you have a take on his intentions?

  Me too...his intent is to sell you something.

 For $450 one can by a Wind and Thunder , a Ukigumo just sold in the classifieds for that...

  At the end of the day , if you are satisfied with the business you've done with Zhang that's all that matters  for you...

 The use of the pictures is still misleading...and the explaination unsatisfactory

----------


## Jeff Hagen

> At the end of the day , if you are satisfied with the business you've done with Zhang that's all that matters  for you...
> 
>  The use of the pictures is still misleading...and the explaination unsatisfactory


I agree on both points. If Zhang can make a sword that looks like that, then why not post a photo on one that looks like that that he has made.

It would be like watching a commercial for a Yugo, and seeing a Porsche. Then when asking the sales man at the Yugo dealership about the images in the commercial the response is "We don't actually make cars like that, but we have talented engineers. We could make it."

As for the sword, I ordered a $500 custom Zhang. I also have a Kiyomaro Katana on order from oni-forge. I'll be able to see if it's worth it when it shows up.

----------


## M.K. Ridgeway

> I agree on both points. If Zhang can make a sword that looks like that, then why not post a photo on one that looks like that that he has made.
> 
> It would be like watching a commercial for a Yugo, and seeing a Porsche. Then when asking the sales man at the Yugo dealership about the images in the commercial the response is "We don't actually make cars like that, but we have talented engineers. We could make it."
> 
> As for the sword, I ordered a $500 custom Zhang. I also have a Kiyomaro Katana on order from oni-forge. I'll be able to see if it's worth it when it shows up.



   Please do keep us informed...

----------


## Skip Gardner

Just spoke with Mr.Zhang.  Pictures will be removed.

----------


## Sean Stonebridge

> I agree on both points. If Zhang can make a sword that looks like that, then why not post a photo on one that looks like that that he has made.
> 
> It would be like watching a commercial for a Yugo, and seeing a Porsche. Then when asking the sales man at the Yugo dealership about the images in the commercial the response is "We don't actually make cars like that, but we have talented engineers. We could make it."
> 
> As for the sword, I ordered a $500 custom Zhang. I also have a Kiyomaro Katana on order from oni-forge. I'll be able to see if it's worth it when it shows up.



Hi Jeff,

At least you didn't mention a Lada dealership.  :Big Grin:  

I think most agree the way Zhi represented / formatted his pictures could be construed in a number of ways.  The worst case would be if it were a deliberate attempt to mislead prospective customers, but I'll hang fire on passing judgement until the point is proven one way or another.  Whether or not that happens is a different matter altogether, but I do hope the new sword you've ordered reaches or exceeds your original expectations.

The same goes for anyone else expecting deliveries via the same source.

-----------

Per the cost factor.

Unless a sword is manufactured in the west and by a western smith the cost should surely be equal to whatever value is placed upon such items in their country of origin.  The only difference being the exchange rate for dollars, pounds sterling, euro's, etc., in place at that particular point in time alongside any relevant excise charges or duties (Payable at the receiving end).

This is an across the board observation and not something solely isolated to Zhi's products, but also Hanwei, Fred Chen, Kris Cutlery, et al.  Just how much excessive profit is being made would be anyones guess, but it possibly serves as an illustration regarding just how far an enthusiast's desire can drive a manufacturer's profit margins.  

Another consideration is just how little our own smith's are making in comparison.

Food for thought.

------------

Following close up inspection of the Zhi blade in my possession (Using an eye glass) and following a direct comparison with a Kris Cutlery blade (Bingo Mihara)  - I'm presently polishing for a friend - I can't find any discernable differences between the two.

They share the same construction methods, style and constituent qualities regarding workmanship with the exception that the Zhi blade had been over zealously polished to a high luster / mirror finish.  This mirror like polish is a bit of a bug bear, because it honestly does make Zhi's blades appear cheap, but once calmed down with an application of nugui they take on a different appearance altogether.

----------


## Timo Qvintus

> Following close up inspection of the Zhi blade in my possession (Using an eye glass) and following a direct comparison with a Kris Cutlery blade (Bingo Mihara)  - I'm presently polishing for a friend - I can't find any discernable differences between the two.
> 
> They share the same construction methods, style and constituent qualities regarding workmanship with the exception that the Zhi blade had been over zealously polished to a high luster / mirror finish.  This mirror like polish is a bit of a bug bear, because it honestly does make Zhi's blades appear cheap, but once calmed down with an application of nugui they take on a different appearance altogether.


I'm unfamiliar with KC Bingo Mihara, is the similarity a good thing? What type of zhi-blade do you have? Regarding the polish, did you order your zhi-blade with a mirror finish or was it "12-stage traditionally hand polished" (or whatever)? Further, would your zhi-blade and those with similar construction look better with some treatment or a new polish? If so, is such a treatment hard and/or expensive to do / have done?

----------


## Tomaz Lazar

Timo, you were asking about the fittings on my sword. They were the standard non-upgraded variety and basically the same as what other Chinese swordmakers tend to offer on their lower end products. The tsuba was of the double ring Musashi design, cast alloy and painted black. It was a bit loose at first actually but this was fixed easily. Fuchi and kashira were of quite plain design, stamped sheet metal blued to an even black color, which did not look too bad. Menuki were cast (probably brass) and too shiny for my taste. 

As for the rest of the koshirae, the brass habaki was of the usual Chinese one-piece type. The tsuka was considerably better made than Masahiro etc. The wood was carved cleanly, with a very good fit. Also the tsukamaki was done quite nicely, tightly and evenly, though I would have preferred cotton over synthetic wrap. Same was attached in panels as opposed to full wrap but again it was higher quality and better done than one usually sees on a Chinese katana. I would also add that the saya was carefully made, well fitting and not overly bulky.  

Considering the price range - the sword cost only about 30% more than a Masahiro - I found the fittings functionally acceptable though of course aesthetically not comparable to custom work or nihonto.

----------


## michael wilson

I feel a bit guilty here as it was me who 'outed ' the aoi art pic  - I certainly 
never meant to cause all this ill will  - 

Sean and Joo  - is it worth two people who always had mutual respect for each other falling out ? 

Remember  - Christmas 1914, even the germans and the english had a cease fire 
and a friendly game of footie  :Smilie: ) 


personally I'll go with Les Yeichs hit and miss comments  - there'll be some gems 
amongst Zhi's offerings with a healthy sprinkling of absolute poultices  - 

Sean  - didnt we encounter the same stick when we talked up our Tony Long 
Diamyo kats many moons ago?  - still the best feeling blade ive ever handled - 
light , fast , agile  - like an extension of myself  - all for £100 ???

I rewrapped the tsuka with leather , like a KC style wrap  - non traditional 
and fitted a PC chen crane tsuba yesterday  - and this feels like a sword ,

not a well dressed crowbar like my $650 PC pro upgrade feels like .

my point is Zhi may very well turn out a nicely balanced , well finished blade  - 
what some of us are uneasy about is the 'secrecy ' around his work methods  - the vagueness of the 12 step polishing process and the borrowed pics of nihonto .

no ones trying to denigrate or demeen anyone I hope  - in fact I am genuinely
pleased when someone finds a bargain or is happy with their sword as so often the opposite happens .

Its pointless trying to preach to the converted  - as its equally pointless me trying to convince the nihon-to community I have a real , well balanced sword 
from china for under $200 .

----------


## Joo-Hwan Lee

> I feel a bit guilty here as it was me who 'outed ' the aoi art pic  - I certainly 
> never meant to cause all this ill will  -


No need to feel guilty, Mick.  I also outed the Huanuo pictures taken from www.bugu.co.uk

Skip says that those images and others have been removed.  This is good news for everyone.  Now we can move on.

----------


## Eck Hank

Uh, it is goin high here.
Some words:
I have ordered 5 more swords from Zhang.
Because, the price is good, quality is good.
I am expecting a very good one and a similar, and three cheap one.
Zhang himself said me the the hamon, for example my first posted swords"TIger", is later made on the sword because for that price there can not be clay temperred Hamon.
This is understandable.
we will maybe change some Koshirae for beter looking, but the blades are okay. 
I saw Oniforge, Paul Chen, some others Name I forget. 
Its all the same for this Pricelevel.
over 3000 US $ it starts japanese Swords on the Level you can exept, but 6000 bucks you need really for a good japanese sword.
thats it.
Soon I post more pictures.
Don't fight
Eck

----------


## Joo-Hwan Lee

> I saw Oniforge, Paul Chen, some others Name I forget. 
> Its all the same for this Pricelevel.
> over 3000 US $ it starts japanese Swords on the Level you can exept, but 6000 bucks you need really for a good japanese sword.


...nevermind.  I'll let someone else disagree with you.

----------


## Timo Qvintus

FIVE?!  :EEK!:  

Holy crap, you must've really liked your first one.. or did you already get several the first time around? Personally I would've bought fewer and of higher quality (folded one with hand made koshirae) but that's just me.. Remember to post a ton of pics when you get those!!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Sean Stonebridge

> I'm unfamiliar with KC Bingo Mihara, is the similarity a good thing? What type of zhi-blade do you have? Regarding the polish, did you order your zhi-blade with a mirror finish or was it "12-stage traditionally hand polished" (or whatever)? Further, would your zhi-blade and those with similar construction look better with some treatment or a new polish? If so, is such a treatment hard and/or expensive to do / have done?



Hi Timo,

The KC (Kris Cutlery) Bingo's are a decent raw blade for the money and can certainly handle a bit of abuse.  A couple of friends have bought and used Bingo's for tameshigiri and had no problems at all.

With regard to the Zhi type / model I don't honestly know and will have to ask my eldest daughter, because she bought for me.  I believe the state of polish it was in would be classed as a mirror polish, because the blade had been given a far too brilliant finish which made it look as though it were mad from stainless steel.  Much the reason behind their not looking too good in the pic's on Zhi's site, but a ferric chloride etch exposed a reasonably active hamon and I thought I'd see just how it could turn out if the polish were worked differently.

I've basically done a hybrid polish (Using papers and pastes) on the blade in question and took it back from a mirror polish by using 1200 grit emery (Wet & dry) paper and re-dressed it's lines.  This was followed by oxidising the blade with nugui and then re-touching the hamon in order to highlight blade activity.  The existing tsuka and were fine, but the hardware was basically  very cheaply made zinc alloy castings, which my wife is presently replacing with some of her own work.

If you're unsure how to go about carrying out a polish I'd recommend you either send it out (Too expensive on blades of this level) or read and learn as much as you can on the topic before you even lift a finger.  Once you feel ready to try carrying out a polish buy a reasonable billet / flat bar of steel and work on that.  Only move onto a blade polish once you've mastered the use of paper / stones and pastes.

A long winded approach?  Maybe, but take and I'll virtually guarantee it'll help save the heartache of ruining a blade through being unfamiliar with technique and materials  :Wink:

----------


## Eck Hank

Hi,
there is no agree or disagree. Just i solution we found out.
I don't say better or worse than...that or this.
Just we decide to buy this time from Zhang.
Maybe next year I have the chance to go to China again, and I will visit Zhangs factory, and others.
Maybe I will change my mind.
So, cheers, Eck

----------


## michael wilson

Now theres a niche  - these may fit for me .

A $200 zhi sword  - forged and differentialy heat treated  - 
another $200 - $ 250 on fittings .

a quick n dirty hybrid polish with grit paper , nugui and a rub up with the hazuya stone on the hamon ( if only it was that easy ) 

see there I go again  - slipping into bad habits .

Mick

----------


## Eck Hank

> I agree on both points. If Zhang can make a sword that looks like that, then why not post a photo on one that looks like that that he has made.
> 
> It would be like watching a commercial for a Yugo, and seeing a Porsche. Then when asking the sales man at the Yugo dealership about the images in the commercial the response is "We don't actually make cars like that, but we have talented engineers. We could make it."
> 
> As for the sword, I ordered a $500 custom Zhang. I also have a Kiyomaro Katana on order from oni-forge. I'll be able to see if it's worth it when it shows up.


Please show when them arrive...
Eck

----------


## Eck Hank

> Yup, those look like stolen pictures.
> 
>      
> 
> Is there any possible chance that Huanuo and Zhang are the same forge? That would be the only possibly way that this would be acceptable in any sense of the word. 
> 
>      
> 
> 
> ...



Does that mean, Zhang uses pictures from other swordsmiths?
Can you tell me where to find this pics.
Eck

----------


## Hrvoje Samija

> Sorry to return to an old topic, but I wanted to clear something here; there are no vertical scratches on the blade, what was shown in the pics is my doing (trying to remove the factory oil/grease without a maintenance kit).. Uchiko powder and sword oil treatment finally got the blade clean, which in turn was my mistake to begin with, I actually asked to use extra protection for the blade b/c of the humidity and temperature variations.. 
> 
> The polish is low-end, though, as I didn't want to spend too much money on this one. Zhang has reassured me that the blade is differentially hardened, but not clay tempered (costs ~$100 extra) as I asked. Thus the nature of the hamon.
> 
> And most importantly, it is exactly what I expected.







> Differentially hardened.  
> 
> 
> But not clay tempered.  
> 
> 
> Gotcha.





> I am mighty confused now...
> So, it is an artificial hamon after all? As I understand it, there is no hamon possible if there was no clay coating (someone please correct me if I am wrong, please...).
> Also, clay is used in HARDENING process, not in the tempering process, to my knowledge (small as it is...)...
> Here's how I see it, as a laymen...
> Hardening is achieved by rapid cooling in water or oil (or some other medium) thus hardening the steel...
> Tempering is heating the steel at some lower temperature for some time, thus lowering the hardness some and at the same time lowering the stress in the steel from forging etc...
> So, it is possible, in different ways, to differentially harden a blade, even without clay...
> It is also possible to differentially temper the blade, after uniformly hardening the blade, and thus achieving harder edge, and softer back, and clay doesn't play any part in tempering...
> So, here I am confused as to what was done to that Zhang sword...
> ...


Now, there was a thread about Timo's Zhi/Zang steel iaito in the Begg. forum that died out, and I didn't get a proper reply, and since this is such a live thread, I'm going to steal it a little...  :Big Grin:  
So, what's up with this heat threatment...? Timo, did you try to polish under the habaki...? And how can it be 'differentially hardened, but not clay tempered.'...?
Anyone? Help me learn, and set me straight on this one, please... 
Thnx.

----------


## M.K. Ridgeway

> No need to feel guilty, Mick.  I also outed the Huanuo pictures taken from www.bugu.co.uk
> 
> Skip says that those images and others have been removed.  This is good news for everyone.  Now we can move on.




  I guess it's all my fault...as I outed all the pics to begin with...

It needed to be done.

   I agree Mick... I have no qualms about a good value Katana for a great price... Remember, I'm the original Masahiro Bamboo guy.

  Remember all the stuffings I took for that?The thread had to be closed.

  THe biggest issue I have is all the threads I've seen with pictures of second rate katana with lousy fittings and horrible maki...and the people just talk it up...and nobody really says what needs to be said about them...

  They look like decent swords for $100 to $150.

  Instead though we have people  paying $500 - $1000 for "custom " swords from Zhi.This may not have happened if the earlier threads hadn't run their course with nothing but back patting among Zhi owners.

  Glen C is the only one I remember actually saying what should have been said...

  Now, if people get these swords and theyre worth the money ....great. The pictures do not present themselves as well as that to me.

  The problem for everyone is if many people continue buying these substandard swords for $500(if they are substandard) it shrinks the market for the decent value $500 swords , like Oni , Dynasty and Hanwei.

  As the market shrinks on these swords we will find either higher prices, or shoddier offerings.

  That's the concern I have with people paying $500 - $1000 or even $2399 for a $150 sword , and then congratulating each other for it.

  Now, I welcome the comparison of Mr. Hagens Kiyomaro vs. an Idenically priced Zhi Sword.

 Here we will get some direct comparison as to whether they are value for the money.

 My fingers are crossed....I hope they are.

----------


## Eck Hank

> Also consider this mumei Nihonto from the Muromachi period, nagasa 28.15'' which comparatively costs "only" $2565 (it's pretty cheap for a well-preserved antique).  A mere difference in price of $165 from the Zhang.
> 
> http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/katana/06300.html
> 
> Needs to be remounted and maybe a fresh "touch-up" polish~  But what the hey.  
> 
> A Koto "Sadakiyo": http://yakiba.com/kat_mumei2.htm  also "only" $2199.  $200 cheaper than the Zhang.
> 
> Pretty healthy blade with good amount of boshi.  And the tsuba is particularly pretty, I think.
> ...


I counted, a sword from James Raw top level will cost about**:
16x78 US$ = 1248 US$
+
100 US$ Posting
thats 1348 Dollars, some specials for example more lengh
could be 1500 US Dollars.
This is a reasonable price for this pretty sword.
I didn't know about JAmes Raw, but I will think. 
Would be nice to find better pictures.
Thanks,
Eck

----------


## Sean Stonebridge

> Uh, it is goin high here.
> Some words:
> I have ordered 5 more swords from Zhang.
> Because, the price is good, quality is good.
> I am expecting a very good one and a similar, and three cheap one.
> Zhang himself said me the the hamon, for example my first posted swords"TIger", is later made on the sword because for that price there can not be clay temperred Hamon.
> This is understandable.
> we will maybe change some Koshirae for beter looking, but the blades are okay. 
> I saw Oniforge, Paul Chen, some others Name I forget. 
> ...


Hi Eck,

I certainly hope you enjoy your rapidly growing collection, but the comparison between Zhi's and other manufacturer's blades all depends upon the standard of blade you're buying into. 

If you're lucky you can find Japanese made blades very reasonably priced and below £1k, but they tend to be wartime relics and not genuine Nihonto.  I managed to obtain a couple of nicely made Nihonto for below £1.5k last year and another this year via a former work colleague in Japan, but they're rare bargains and sourced privately.  Entry level Nihonto (Newly made) can be had for as low as £800 and as high as you can afford, but buying the new Porsche would have to wait yet another year.  :Big Grin: 

---------

In attempting to quantify how different people approach the topic of aquiring Japanese / Japanese styled blades, there are far too many ways and methods of approach.  Many simply have a desire to buy into the idea of having a Japanese styled blade, whilst others prefer to strictly adhere to the aim of aquiring high quality Nihonto (Japanese swords made using traditional methods, materials, made under license and from Japan).  There are so many levels from which one can approach the shared interest in swords from Japan and other cultures, but it's up to the indivdual to determine what he / she truly prefers to buy / can afford at any given time.

Is something wrong because it doesn't fit into the norm, or is it simply a case of traditional rigidness versus casual flexibility during the selection of a sword?  To be perfectly frank I'm all for freedom of choice and choose gentle persuasion (By recommending suitable reading matter (Does a newbie necessarily want to have to purchase expensive literature or swords?), formal training and safety first) over forceful admonishment any day. 

One of my brothers solely collects wallhangers.  His doesn't coincide with my approach, but I choose not to preach or debate the pro's and con's concerning my preferences over his.

If something's crap, flawed, or poorly made, explain (In detail) why.  An abrupt comment akin to "It's crap, don't buy it" simply doesn't wash, whilst using an approach like "They're not very well made, because ........" will garner a person's interest and encourage him / her to listen, while you explain the benefits behind buying a better example.  Otherwise any attempt at providing sound advice to a beginner simply sounds like ranting, nay saying, or high handedness and creates a poor atmosphere whilst offending others.  :Wink:

----------


## Timo Qvintus

> If you're unsure how to go about carrying out a polish I'd recommend you either send it out (Too expensive on blades of this level) or read and learn as much as you can on the topic before you even lift a finger.  Once you feel ready to try carrying out a polish buy a reasonable billet / flat bar of steel and work on that.  Only move onto a blade polish once you've mastered the use of paper / stones and pastes.
> 
> A long winded approach?  Maybe, but take and I'll virtually guarantee it'll help save the heartache of ruining a blade through being unfamiliar with technique and materials


Have you finished your re-polish? If so could you post pictures? 

If you've visited Beginners forum lately you may have noticed that I have a f'd up cheap-o chinatana (of which the tsukamaki just became loose, incidentally) that I'm planning to use as target practice. I have pretty good access to steel bars though, since my father owns a steel workshop..  :Big Grin:  If you'd post your two cents on that thread I'd be grateful..

----------


## M.K. Ridgeway

> I counted, a sword from James Raw top level will cost about**:
> 16x78 US$ = 1248 US$
> +
> 100 US$ Posting
> thats 1348 Dollars, some specials for example more lengh
> could be 1500 US Dollars.
> This is a reasonable price for this pretty sword.
> I didn't know about JAmes Raw, but I will think. 
> Would be nice to find better pictures.
> ...




   Exactly... Raw, Sorrells...these guys are making obtainable blades that are light years ahead of anything coming out of mass production forges in China...for a similar price..

  For the $2399 you spend on that Zhi sword I posted with the crappy Koshirae you could get a custom forged Rawblade and have it mounted by Fred Lohman.

----------


## michael wilson

Check out your headline M.K  - its not shocking really  :Smilie:  

yeah I remember the uproar your masahiro threads caused last year  - but they were in the context of you being able to compare your masahiro's to proven swords like your PC wind and thunder  - 

I think what Joo's reffering to and I do not mean any posters in this thread by the way  - is when absolute begginners pick up a $150 sword and decide then and there  - " this is the real deal , a real sword" 

Sean did Zhi a very favourable review  - but Sean can review a sword without all the hystrionics some of us have when we first start out on the path of the sword due to his experience and ability to compare and reference certain points 

 - I am going to withhold Judgement until I see a review of one of the $1500
and above high end Zhi swords , purely out of curiosity and concern for the state of the current market .

 - Thhe closest I hope ever to get to a chinese production katana again is via Bugei and hanwei and thats if I cannott find a gendaito that doesnt need extensive restoration .

Mick

----------


## Eck Hank

> Hi Eck,
> 
> I certainly hope you enjoy your rapidly growing collection, but the comparison between Zhi's and other manufacturer's blades all depends upon the standard of blade you're buying into. 
> 
> If you're lucky you can find Japanese made blades very reasonably priced and below £1k, but they tend to be wartime relics and not genuine Nihonto.  I managed to obtain a couple of nicely made Nihonto for below £1.5k last year and another this year via a former work colleague in Japan, but they're rare bargains and sourced privately.  Entry level Nihonto (Newly made) can be had for as low as £800 and as high as you can afford, but buying the new Porsche would have to wait yet another year. 
> 
> ---------
> 
> In attempting to quantify how different people approach the topic of aquiring Japanese / Japanese styled blades, there are far too many ways and methods of approach.  Many simply have a desire to buy into the idea of having a Japanese styled blade, whilst others prefer to strictly adhere to the aim of aquiring high quality Nihonto (Japanese swords made using traditional methods, materials, made under license and from Japan).  There are so many levels from which one can approach the shared interest in swords from Japan and other cultures, but it's up to the indivdual to determine what he / she truly prefers to buy / can afford at any given time.
> ...


Hi Sean,
yes, Porsche is nice, but not reasonable.
This swords are for people who practise, and cannot spend much money.
I kept only two.

And,,, at least are my friends not so interested for more expensive swords.
I do hope I did not embarasse somebody...
I thought about Gunto, but I didn't like. And an old sword I would not test for cutting.
I liked to start and i did. I will learn more and buy what I will like, for Exercising, looking or cutting.
Be sure, I listen very carefully to the advices are given here.
Regards, Eck

----------


## Timo Qvintus

> Remember, I'm the original Masahiro Bamboo guy.


You should add that sentence to your sig, mate..  :Big Grin:  




> THe biggest issue I have is all the threads I've seen with pictures of second rate katana with lousy fittings and horrible maki...and the people just talk it up...and nobody really says what needs to be said about them...
> 
> They look like decent swords for $100 to $150.
> 
> Instead though we have people  paying $500 - $1000 for "custom " swords from Zhi.This may not have happened if the earlier threads hadn't run their course with nothing but back patting among Zhi owners.
> 
> *SNIP*
> 
> Now, if people get these swords and theyre worth the money ....great. The pictures do not present themselves as well as that to me.


Umm.. how many of those swords have been ~$500 range? I thought most of them were low-end to mid-range ones (with cheap cast alloy koshirae and cotton ito).. I may be wrong though. My "custom" iaito cost me $320, which includes $100 worth extras and shipping. To me that is helluva value for my money. BTW, for reference, what did you think of my sword; was that "second rate katana with lousy fittings and horrible maki" too? I'd honestly like to know..

----------


## Sean Stonebridge

> Now, there was a thread about Timo's Zhi/Zang steel iaito in the Begg. forum that died out, and I didn't get a proper reply, and since this is such a live thread, I'm going to steal it a little...  
> So, what's up with this heat threatment...? Timo, did you try to polish under the habaki...? And how can it be 'differentially hardened, but not clay tempered.'...?
> Anyone? Help me learn, and set me straight on this one, please... 
> Thnx.


Hi Hrvoje,

You can differentially harden a blade by bringing it to temperature, quenching the edge (Not the entire blade) and allowing the spine to cool at a slower rate and then temper the entire blade.  You can achieve some fascinating blade activity (Hamon).  It's a fairly common method for producing resilient sword blades and can be found worldwide.

Another alternative is to bring the leading edge of the blade to heat by passing the edge through the coals (This creates a graduation in temperature from leading edge to spine) and then quench.  This also creates an interesting blade activity and a differential in hardness.  Temper as per routine.

Both methods produce curvature (Not necessarily to the same degree as with the clay coating method), but the main difference is that clay coating pre-determines the pattern of the hamon.

----------


## Sean Stonebridge

> Hi Sean,
> yes, Porsche is nice, but not reasonable.
> This swords are for people who practise, and cannot spend much money.
> I kept only two.
> 
> And,,, at least are my friends not so interested for more expensive swords.
> I do hope I did not embarasse somebody...
> I thought about Gunto, but I didn't like. And an old sword I would not test for cutting.
> I liked to start and i did. I will learn more and buy what I will like, for Exercising, looking or cutting.
> ...




I'm sure you know all of the safety checks when handling and using swords for tameshigiri, so I won't go any further than wish you luck in your endeavours and hope you enjoy your swords  :Wink:

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## Hrvoje Samija

> Hi Hrvoje,
> 
> You can differentially harden a blade by bringing it to temperature, quenching the edge (Not the entire blade) and allowing the spine to cool at a slower rate and then temper the entire blade.  You can achieve some fascinating blade activity (Hamon).  It's a fairly common method for producing resilient sword blades and can be found worldwide.
> 
> Another alternative is to bring the leading edge of the blade to heat by passing the edge through the coals (This creates a graduation in temperature from leading edge to spine) and then quench.  This also creates an interesting blade activity and a differential in hardness.  Temper as per routine.
> 
> Both methods produce curvature (Not necessarily to the same degree as with the clay coating method), but the main difference is that clay coating pre-determines the pattern of the hamon.


Hello Sean, long (Tony Long to be exact  :Big Grin:  ) time no see...
I do know about all that, what I am getting at is this sentence 'differentially hardened, *but not clay tempered*.'
Now, my understanding is that you clay HARDEN a blade, not temper...
Was it, maybe, a semantic error, and he meant not CLAY HARDENED, and as such, having less visible hamon, but because it WAS differentially hardened, it still shows a REAL hamon of a sort...?
And, since I am asking, am I correct in assuming that you could diff. TEMPER a through hardened blade, getting a softer spine and harder edge, but with no real hamon visible...?
Thnx. for the patience...

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## Sean Stonebridge

> Check out your headline M.K  - its not shocking really  
> 
> yeah I remember the uproar your masahiro threads caused last year  - but they were in the context of you being able to compare your masahiro's to proven swords like your PC wind and thunder  - 
> 
> I think what Joo's reffering to and I do not mean any posters in this thread by the way  - is when absolute begginners pick up a $150 sword and decide then and there  - " this is the real deal , a real sword" 
> 
> Sean did Zhi a very favourable review  - but Sean can review a sword without all the hystrionics some of us have when we first start out on the path of the sword due to his experience and ability to compare and reference certain points 
> 
>  - I am going to withhold Judgement until I see a review of one of the $1500
> ...


Hi Mick,

I agree concerning Joo's standpoint mate, but the wording left a lot to be desired from my perspective.

I'd hate to be the first to "invest" in a $1500 Zhi sword, but that's more to do with the unknown quantity aspect of such a deal than any doubt whether or not he can produce the goods.

Wasn't it you who coined the phrase "Chinatana"?  :Big Grin:  

-----------

Timo,

I'm still working on the polish and unfortunately have just about as much computing literacy as Asterix has a chance of dating Kim Basinger,  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  so the pic's will have to wait until my eldest daughter decides to return from her present trip to Australia and Malaysia (She's taken a year out from her university studies).

Your dad will probably be able to help regarding suitable steel finishing and processing methods  :Wink:  

-----------

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## Sean Stonebridge

> Hello Sean, long (Tony Long to be exact  ) time no see...
> I do know about all that, what I am getting at is this sentence 'differentially hardened, *but not clay tempered*.'
> Now, my understanding is that you clay HARDEN a blade, not temper...
> Was it, maybe, a semantic error, and he meant not CLAY HARDENED, and as such, having less visible hamon, but because it WAS differentially hardened, it still shows a REAL hamon of a sort...?
> And, since I am asking, am I correct in assuming that you could diff. TEMPER a through hardened blade, getting a softer spine and harder edge, but with no real hamon visible...?
> Thnx. for the patience...




Hi Hrvoje,

Ahhhh...... the Tony Long days  :Big Grin:  

I think it's more a case of semantics than anything else, because you can do both with the clay still in place and I think he meant to refer to the fact they tend not to clay their blades and edge harden instead.

Through hardened blades tend to be through tempered too, because the tempering "relaxes" the stress, reduces brittleness and increases the blade's ability to flex.  

You'd basically have to evenly heat the spine of the blade (Whilst trying to avoid heating the edge) in order to soften / relieve the spine, but keeping it's temperature sufficiently low to avoid drawing the blade too far.  So much depends upon the state of temper and the steel used.

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## Hrvoje Samija

Thnx Sean, that's what I thought...
I remember reading about through hardened katanas that were through tempered, but to quite high Rc (a bit over mid 50-ties), and than, after that, tempered some more by carefuly heating the spine for additional temper, more 'springy' temper, if I remember it correctly...
Now, if only I could remember where I read about it and what katana those were...  :Big Grin:

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## M.K. Ridgeway

> You should add that sentence to your sig, mate..  
> 
> 
> 
> Umm.. how many of those swords have been ~$500 range? I thought most of them were low-end to mid-range ones (with cheap cast alloy koshirae and cotton ito).. I may be wrong though. My "custom" iaito cost me $320, which includes $100 worth extras and shipping. To me that is helluva value for my money. BTW, for reference, what did you think of my sword; was that "second rate katana with lousy fittings and horrible maki" too? I'd honestly like to know..



    Well, shipping I include in with the price of the sword,because if you didn't have to pay $80 shipping that's another $80 worth of steel, or polish or koshirae...am I making sense?

  One gent has a $500 Zhi on order , another a $450 and in another thread someone mentioned $400. These are the ones I mean.

  I have a Ukigumo and a Wind and Thunder, neither of which I paid $500 for.

  The following sword I just sold brand new in the classifieds for $210.

 There are just so many other choices in the pricerange that make much more sense to me.

   As far as your sword...I don't wish to single any one example out, as  I don't wish to hurt anyones feelings...let's just say I looked at all the pictures and took the average :Wink:  
[IMG][/IMG]

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## les yeich

> Following close up inspection of the Zhi blade in my possession (Using an eye glass) and following a direct comparison with a Kris Cutlery blade (Bingo Mihara)  - I'm presently polishing for a friend - I can't find any discernable differences between the two.
> 
> They share the same construction methods, style and constituent qualities regarding workmanship with the exception that the Zhi blade had been over zealously polished to a high luster / mirror finish.  This mirror like polish is a bit of a bug bear, because it honestly does make Zhi's blades appear cheap, but once calmed down with an application of nugui they take on a different appearance altogether.


sean, i gotta politely ask what criteria you were following if, after examining with an eyeglass, you criticise pretty harshly the zhi polish, and then state that you couldn't discern any difference between the two blades? i've owned several kc bingo blades, and they all had a polish far better than a "mirror polish". if the polishes alone significantly differ in quality, how could such a judgement really be made? we are talking japanese style blades here, where the quality of the polish can make or break a sword.

i'm not trying to stoke any fires or anything here, i just see this alot when two different brands are being compared. there's already a bias, so any really subjective comments are. . . well. . . pretty hard to swallow. i know when i like a new sword, it's better than all my others, and then after awhile i'm like "dang, how did that one get by me?".

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## Timo Qvintus

> Well, shipping I include in with the price of the sword,because if you didn't have to pay $80 shipping that's another $80 worth of steel, or polish or koshirae...am I making sense?


Actually, no, since I'd have to pay the shipping on any other sword too.. unless I buy something that's available in Finland; namely PC, Masahiro and Cold Steel, but those are 130% more expensive than usual here anyway (PPK = $350). It's obviously different elsewhere..

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## M.K. Ridgeway

> Actually, no, since I'd have to pay the shipping on any other sword too.. unless I buy something that's available in Finland; namely PC, Masahiro and Cold Steel, but those are 130% more expensive than usual here anyway (PPK = $350). It's obviously different elsewhere..


  I'm sure things may be different for you...but what I'm saying is basic...If I order a Zhisword ,I must pay shipping from china , 80-100 . If I order Oni Forge shipping is free. your situation is somewhat different,but in most peoples cases $100 shipping is an avoidable expense...

  Hence it makes sense to include it as a part of product pricing.

  Are Citadel katana not availiable to you there?

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## Timo Qvintus

> Are Citadel katana not availiable to you there?


Dunno, I've never heard of them in the first place.. 

This site pretty much has all that there is (to my knowledge, at least).. you might want to check out the video clips for cheap laughs, too..  :Big Grin:  

http://teraasekeskus.com/tuotteet_ma...et=all&lan=eng

(BTW; 1 = $1.32)

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## Sean Stonebridge

> sean, i gotta politely ask what criteria you were following if, after examining with an eyeglass, you criticise pretty harshly the zhi polish, and then state that you couldn't discern any difference between the two blades? i've owned several kc bingo blades, and they all had a polish far better than a "mirror polish". if the polishes alone significantly differ in quality, how could such a judgement really be made? we are talking japanese style blades here, where the quality of the polish can make or break a sword.
> 
> i'm not trying to stoke any fires or anything here, i just see this alot when two different brands are being compared. there's already a bias, so any really subjective comments are. . . well. . . pretty hard to swallow. i know when i like a new sword, it's better than all my others, and then after awhile i'm like "dang, how did that one get by me?".


Hi Les,

Never a problem  :Wink:  .  

My criteria concern sugata, overall execution of technique and polish.  The former two being comparatively similar between Zhi and KC, with the latter being a case of "can do much better" on the part of Zhi.  :Wink:  

Certainly no bias on my part, because the Zhi and Bingo blades weren't and still aren't necessarily my cup of tea (Sword wise), but that's because I'm basically a Nihontophile and - as such - normally avoid production blades  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  .  Nothing to do with snobbishness on my part, but Nihonto are my chosen avenue of interest, but (Despite this) my family and friends still insist on buying production swords as gifts for birthdays and Christmas.  :Confused:  I don't have too big a problem with this, because I enjoy swords anyway.  :Big Grin:  

I honestly don't know the model designation of the Zhi blade, because it was a gift and (As such) my wife had replaced it's original hardware with goods of her making in order to "spice up it's appearance" and my daughter is presently staying with an old work colleague of mine in Australia.

I agree the Bingo has a better / more acceptable (Basic) polish, but had effectively reverted the Zhi blade from it's glazed mirror polish (Which IMHO badly affects it's appearance) to a more subtle (Pre hazuya) one.   I carefully created a window into the blade in order to review any potential activity - Basically in order to judge whether or not a re-polish would be worthwhile and to check out the original, but dubiously presented hamon.  

It was hoped the blade could be turned into a prospective display piece, because it was a gift from my eldest daughter.  

An application of ferric chloride helped highlight a little of the pre-existing blade activity and I can readily differentiate the junction between the two grades of steel used for core and edge under the eye glass and an electronically lit microscope I have on loan from my daughter's university lab.  There's a discernable difference in shade between the two metals used in the blade's construction alongside what could readily be mistaken for hada.

Blade quality (Zhi) is slightly better than one Bingo, slightly worse than the other I have access to, but a more realistic comparison would involve accessing a number of blades from both makers / suppliers.

I've yet to see a high grade blade from Zhi, but first impressions regarding the original polish - on the one I do have - are;

1.   Can do much better on the basic polish.  
2.   Please don't over use the buffing wheel.  
3.   Why the mirror polish on the entire blade?  :Confused:  
4.   Well crafted blade.
5.   Nicely balanced blade.  
6.   Blade suited to light cutting and iaido.  :Wink: 
7.   Crap fittings.  :Ninja Master:  
8.   Pretty good "starter" / "improver" blades.
9.   The low end blades appear to be "apprentice pieces".  
10.  More care needed during tsuka fitting.  
11.  Nicely shaped tsuka.      

---------

Blade reviews realistically necessitate hands on experience in order to appreciate it's good points / flaws, with a whole lot less reliance on picture appeal - which tends to be more superficial than helpful.  All a picture can ever do is provide an initial impression of a blade's aesthetic appeal, but - if the picture is poorly presented / taken - can also destroy any such appeal, or chance of prosprective custom.  Precisely where many Nihonto enthusiasts go wrong.  

Why?  Because a polish can - more often - readily be re-done and a legitimate reason for why enthusiasts need to look more deeply into what a blade can become and how it's been made, in preference to how it initially appears.

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## M.K. Ridgeway

> Dunno, I've never heard of them in the first place.. 
> 
> This site pretty much has all that there is (to my knowledge, at least).. you might want to check out the video clips for cheap laughs, too..  
> 
> http://teraasekeskus.com/tuotteet_ma...et=all&lan=eng
> 
> (BTW; 1 = $1.32)


   Citadel is a good brand...highly popular in Europe. I have one,I'm not really all that fond of ,but thats just me. They are nice Katana.

 Check here

http://www.aikidoka.fr/boutique/inde...ath=99_115_134


 Also look here


http://www.shadowofleaves.com/katana.htm





  For anyone curious at all , here is a nice ,long video about the manufacture of Citadel Katana...comprehensive, another reason Zhang secrecy is disturbing.

  Legit Manufacturers are often all to happy to show you how they are forging the products...

http://video.mpegnation.com/a0017865...131719250.html

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## M.K. Ridgeway

Just wanted to recognize the fact that Mr. Zhang has taken down the disputed pictures....

 Merry Christmas all.

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## Zach Wechsler

i've been looking over their website looking for a sword i'd like, (i'm trying to come to a decision, can't choose cheness, zhi, or generation 2?) (irrelevent) anyway
the "12 step polish" is $45, and i don't find that very expensive. maybe compared to their $120 swords, but still, i'll throw it in if it's that much better.

question-- how much better -is- the hand-polish vs. the machine polish? steel isn't much like wood in the way each piece is different-- you can make steel so it's all identical, i know in woodwork and such this is what makes hand-made things better, (as a guitar entheusiast,) so yeah, how much better is the hand polish? is it more durable? sharper? more effective? better tempering?

thanks!

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## Eck Hank

Dear Zach,
regarding your wishes I can give you some informations.
Machine sharpend by Zhang is not sharp enough for cutting.
So "handpolishing" is better.
The Hamon on the cheaper swords is done by hand, not real, regarding the price.
 You can get real Hamon on claytempered threelayers steel or folded up to...
depends on the price.
This you should ask MR Zhang himself.
I have 3 swords by him and saw several.
Thats what i know.
Regards,
Eck

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## Eck Hank

> FIVE?!  
> 
> Holy crap, you must've really liked your first one.. or did you already get several the first time around? Personally I would've bought fewer and of higher quality (folded one with hand made koshirae) but that's just me.. Remember to post a ton of pics when you get those!!


Hi Timo, was a long time off. I ordered five, not for me, ha ha, for friends and students and not everybody has much money. This days the first two will come.
Eck
Happy new year

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## Timo Qvintus

> Dear Zach,
> regarding your wishes I can give you some informations.
> Machine sharpend by Zhang is not sharp enough for cutting.
> So "handpolishing" is better.
> The Hamon on the cheaper swords is done by hand, not real, regarding the price.
>  You can get real Hamon on claytempered threelayers steel or folded up to...
> depends on the price.
> This you should ask MR Zhang himself.
> I have 3 swords by him and saw several.
> ...


Hi Eck, please post pics from the new ones if you can, maybe with quick reviews..? 

Have you tried to re-polish/etch those low-end blades to confirm the hamon is only cosmetic? I think it was Sean who did this to his blade and it revealed an actual hamon underneath. It seems the low-end polish is unfortunately done with a buffing wheel which causes the blade to appear cheap and the hamon appears to be wirebrushed.

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## Sean Stonebridge

I've heard from my eldest daughter (Yesterday) that the blade I have was one of their higher end stone polished blades (I'd assumed it was a low end item) and that she'd done a clean up on the blade - prior to wrapping it as a gift - to subdue an apparently gawdy hada.  :Confused:  .  She'd apparently buffed the blade using my Dremel lol.

I'm presently working on a full re-polish to see if I can elevate the hada and better judge the blade.

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## Eck Hank

> Hi Eck, please post pics from the new ones if you can, maybe with quick reviews..? 
> 
> Have you tried to re-polish/etch those low-end blades to confirm the hamon is only cosmetic? I think it was Sean who did this to his blade and it revealed an actual hamon underneath. It seems the low-end polish is unfortunately done with a buffing wheel which causes the blade to appear cheap and the hamon appears to be wirebrushed.


Hi Timo, 
I don't think there is a real hamon under the wirebrushed egde.
I polished some scratches very slowly and the brushed hamon dissapeares. And i stopped polishing. And, Mr Zhang told me it is brushed, and I understand that for 150 dollars it must be like that. neverthanless it works very good. the folded one has a real hamon. i polished a scratch and it is nice again.
I will post soon some new pictures.
regards, Eck

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## Timo Qvintus

That's funny, three months ago Zhang told me they never wirebrush blades..  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Eck Hank

> That's funny, three months ago Zhang told me they never wirebrush blades..


I must correct myself, MR Zhang didn't say it is wirebrushed, he said, the Hamon is not natural, it is made for optical reasons. because of the price.
I said wirebrushed because I guessed so. It might be done by hand and stone or.....

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## Adrian Myszka

I've recently bought an Iaito from Zhi, and am looking forward to checking it out. I don't know a great deal about the various fittings and components in a sword or how to judge their quality,  but I'll be more than happy to diss-assemble it and chuck up a few pics. 

On another note, what do you think of Jidai? How do they compare up against other sword manufacturers? Have you guys heard of them? 

Website can be found at http://www.jidai.jp

----------

