# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Middle-East, India & Africa (MEIA) >  Shamshir sward signature translate needed

## K.SANDRO

HELLO PEOPLE! 
MY FAMILY ALMOST 100 YEAR OWNS SWARD,BUT  STILL I DO NOT KNOW WAT 
IS WRITTEN ON IT...

(PROBABLY GRAND-PA-KNEW,BUT HE LEFT LONG AGO :Smilie: )

MAY BE THERE IS ANY DATA OR NAME...

I HOPE SOMEBODY WILL HELP TO NEWJOINER... :Smilie: 

THERE IS A LINK TO PICTURES OF MY SWARD
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/9966/xmali.jpg
http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/1...ulicarcera.jpg
http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/1...ulicarcera.jpg
http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/1...2846153551.jpg
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/8...2846155661.jpg

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## K.SANDRO

THIS IS ANOTHER view OF SWARD...

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## Sancar Ozer

Even though the blade is less curved than usual, and the hilt and guard is similar to Ottoman versions, I believe this is a Persian shamshir, probably from later periods lle, late 19th to early 20th centuries. My amateur guess is this is a Kaçar dynasty or Pehlevi dynasty era custom made officer sword.  I'm sure Manouchehr will be able to give you much more accurate information.  :Wink:

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## K.SANDRO

I'M VERY GLAD 4 YOUR POST!
RESPECT YOUR OPINION ABOUT Ottoman versions.ESPECIALLY ,THAT IT WAS DISCOVERED IN CITY BATUMI,GEORGIA-19 CENTURIES CONTROLLED BY TURKEY.

 BUT ANY WAY HOPE IT IS OLDER .IT WILL BE CLEAR IF SOMEBODY CAN READ THE TEXT...

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## K.SANDRO

I DISAPPOINTED: ITS SEEMS NOBODY CAN READ TEXT ON MY SWARD... :Frown: 

OR WORSE :EVERYBODY ARE IGNORING MY REQUEST... :Frown: 

Mr.Manouchehr  
Mr.A. Alnakas  
Can U b so kind find few minutes for me?

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## A. Alnakas

> I DISAPPOINTED: ITS SEEMS NOBODY CAN READ TEXT ON MY SWARD...
> 
> OR WORSE :EVERYBODY ARE IGNORING MY REQUEST...
> 
> Mr.Manouchehr  
> Mr.A. Alnakas  
> Can U b so kind find few minutes for me?


hello mate,

am very sorry but i cant read persian. also even if its not persian, am having a hard time disiphering the text as am not experienced with caligraphy  :Frown: 

all i can say is that i agree with mr.sancar, the blade is persian due to the art (the lion and the man) and the blade does look 19'th century.

please be patient and soon it will be translated by the more experienced members.

kind regards,

A.alnakkas

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## K.SANDRO

THANK U VERY MACH Mr 
A. Alnakas 4 YURE ANSWER...
I'M WAITING 4 Mr.Manouchehr...

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## Manouchehr M.

I already sent you a pm 2 days ago I think.  Unfortunately this type of inscription is very dense and requires lots of time and research.  I need to see the sword in person and then work on it.  We need to separate the words and then try to figure out what makes sense in combination with others.  Lots of work.

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## Sancar Ozer

I must admit I find this sword very interesting. Unique shape of the blade and the hilt, complexity of calligraphy, insignia of crowned lion with sword (I guess this is a sign that is related to Safavid dynasty, am I right?) and most of all portrait of a crowned male (I guess this represents Shah)portrayed from the frontal(which is rare in Western Asian portait painting tradition) . ...  

Manouchehr, other than inscirptions, are any of those aspects significant to identify this sword? Are this form of hilts and blades indicate a special subtype or period in Persian swordmaking; or are those only artistic choices of the swordmaker?

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## K.SANDRO

Thanks a lot everybody 4 trying to help me!
Sorry,I never knew that it is so complicated...
Wonderingly: why maker use so unusual and difficult writing,that nobody can read?
I'm from Georgia,and in my country I can't found person who can read that text  :Frown: 
Mr.Manouchehr M. 
"I need to see the sword in person and then work on it." 
U mean that U need 2 c sward in live? ...
I , with great pleasure,but no idea how 2 arrange that...
especial I don't know your location :Frown: 
What  i can do: clean and shining blade and make new better photo and attach here...
  additionally like to say,that one my net-Friend decipher under man's  picture letters in abjad manner "RSTM" and  "L MML".and he suppose the sward is from king Rostom's smithery   
       King(khan) of east Georgia  Rostom-khosro mirza(1633-1658)(1043-1068AH)
One friend advise this  http://calligraphyqalam.com/forum/  maybe there can find somthing   :Smilie:

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## Sancar Ozer

K.Sandro; calligraphy is an art andis used to ornament the blade's surface, that is why it is so somplex and excellent.

I don't know where you live but you might want to try to take the sword to your local university's or museum's Western Asian art or Persian language and literature experts. Maybe they can read it for you.  :Wink:

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## K.SANDRO

Thanks 4 your advise!
I live in Georgia,in small city. But I'll try it in capital city- Tbilisi...

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## Manouchehr M.

Give us some time.  A friend of mine will join the discussion soon.

Kind regards
Manouchehr

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## K.SANDRO

Thank u very mach in advance 4 hope!

I ' ll wait with patient... :Smilie:

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## K.SANDRO



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## K.SANDRO

SALAAM Mr.Manouchehr M. !
THIS MAIL I RECEIVE FROM ANOTHER FORUM-FRIEND...
MAYBE U WILL FIND IT INTERESTING...

i was reading your posts back and forth since you put them a week ago...very nice sword ..i was trying ..to read the script ..i could read some few words like (a3amali mean my work ).or (el khould ..mean eternity ).anyway ..from my knowledge Shamshir sword is originally from *Khurasan* ..region of Persia and was popularized in Persia by the early 16th century i think it need a lot of work to identify the text .like he said brother Shafiq to send it to an academic who has had experience dealing with such artefacts
i will keep trying

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## Manouchehr M.

Unfortunately, the quality of your pictures are very poor and hard to identify anything.  The inscriptions are etched and of later work so not early gold-inlaying.  These types of inscriptions are mostly talismanic in nature or are prayers and sometimes repeat themselves.  Given the etching process, I doubt you will find any relevant/important informaation regarding this sword.  I am pressed for time hence I asked a friend to come to your help.  She expressed the same things as I mentioned.  The quality of pics is not good and they need to be big pictures and then she needs to see the sword

Kind regards
Manouchehr

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## Aleksey G.

Guys,
Hello, hows everybody?
Hope all is well.
In my humble opinion sword is possibly a causacian region sword - Georgian/Khevsur Palash with a curved blade, some of them came with curved or straight blades, ranging from locally made to persian imported wootz blades, pommel is very unusual for a palash since most of them came with syrian shamshir style pommels, very defined long pommel with a sharp corner from the grip. Ive included several images I found online...so language on the blade might be Georgian or from the surrounding regions.
Just seems like a combination of styles....nice and unusual...scabbard is also in a persianized style with tooled leather, I wish the fittings have survived maybe would've been another clue... 
Aleksey

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## K.SANDRO

> Guys,
> Hello, hows everybody?
> Hope all is well.
> In my humble opinion sword is possibly a causacian region sword - Georgian/Khevsur Palash with a curved blade, some of them came with curved or straight blades, ranging from locally made to persian imported wootz blades, pommel is very unusual for a palash since most of them came with syrian shamshir style pommels, very defined long pommel with a sharp corner from the grip. Ive included several images I found online...so language on the blade might be Georgian or from the surrounding regions.
> Just seems like a combination of styles....nice and unusual...scabbard is also in a persianized style with tooled leather, I wish the fittings have survived maybe would've been another clue... 
> Aleksey


HELLO ALEKSEY!
IT'S VERY HARD 4 ME 2 AGREE WITH YOUR OPINION,BECAUSE IF THE TEXT WAS GEORGIAN(EVEN OLD) I COULD READ.HERE IS ARABIC LETTERS...
BUT IF SOMEBODY WROTE  ARABIC ON GEORGIAN/KHEVSUR SWARD-I DON'T KNOW :Frown: 
Thanks 4 your post.

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## K.SANDRO

> Unfortunately, the quality of your pictures are very poor and hard to identify anything.


SALAAM! REALY SURPRISED 4 THAT :Frown: 
BECAUSE 4 ME THEY LOOK CLEAR...
MAYBE THESE PHOTOS  ARE BETTER?
I UPLOAD IN DIFFERENT PLACE AND THERE IS MAGNIFIER...

http://pix.ge/x/b/t/qr1l3/

http://pix.ge/x/a/o/iwre3/

http://pix.ge/x/a/k/3ib9p/

http://pix.ge/x/b/a/5ew7o/

http://pix.ge/x/a/w/nthlv/

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## Aleksey G.

Guys Hello,
You might be right about the characters on the blade...I didnt look up close to check out the characters. But I will stand on the look/style of the sword. Guard style, blade profile just looks very caucasian to me. Might have been made to export or for an owner who was not originally from the region.

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## K.SANDRO

> Guys Hello,
> You might be right about the characters on the blade...I didnt look up close to check out the characters. But I will stand on the look/style of the sword. Guard style, blade profile just looks very caucasian to me. Might have been made to export or for an owner who was not originally from the region.


HI! YES U R RIGTH ! EVERYTHING IS SO COMPLICATED... :Frown: 

 :Confused:  :Confused:  :Confused:

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## K.SANDRO

Manouchehr M. 
Looks very similar!....................

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## A. Alnakas

i think all agree that the blade is persian. the problem is that we cannot read the inscription for multiple reasons stated above.

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## Rahil A.

Hello,
I tried to read the inscriptions, the pictures are in good size and resolution but reading the inscriptions is another story and needs much closer shots.  

On the obverse side (pic1), the middle inscription which is divided into two parts has got two words that are repetitive through the inscription, one that is the beginner of the both two parts could not be read but the other word is علی (Ali)that could refer to either the name of علی بن ابی طالب  or an Arabic word with the same alphabet meaning (upon, at, in…) and the inscription below the portrait (pic1-2)seems to have a word: سلطان(Soltan) (king) and again the word علی. 
Such repetitive words suggest some sort of religious hymns. 
For the upper inscription (pic1) the only word that I could read was: الذی (Allathi) meaning (Who, whom, whose…).
The reverse side (pic2) again contains both repetitive words of the other side, the first beginner word which is written three times at the first part could not be recognized and the second word is علی.
The other inscription under the central one seems to have علی بن (Ali-ibn)which means (Ali the son of…)

I couldn`t read more words, I think closer pics are needed.
Hope it helps...

Regards
Rahil

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## K.SANDRO

Rahil A. I APPRECIATE SO MUCH 4 YOUR DILIGENCE.
  WITH YOUR PERMISION I WILL SEND YOUR POST 2 MY FRIENDS (THEY ALSO ARE TRAING 2 DESHIPHER THE TEXT).
  IN 2 DEYIES I PUT BETTER (CLOSER ) PICTURES.NOW I'M OUT OF HOME  :Frown:

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## Rahil A.

K.SANDRO
Your welcome. Surely, I`ll be delighted if my post could be helpful.
Will be waiting for closer pics. Don`t know how much I can read but I will try to find out more about the inscriptions.

Good luck
Rahil

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## K.SANDRO

hello Rahil A.
I'M GET ONE RESPOND 4 YOUR POST.MAYBE IT WILL INTERESTING 4 U  :Smilie: 
"Those are the words I could make out. I think the word علی is more likely to be Alaa' as in upon, rather than Ali ibn Talib, because there aren't any dots underneath the ی. In the photo http://www.swordforum.com/forums/att...7&d=1284983220, the first word seems to be something like لمثلتكا, though I couldn't get a translation from Google Translate "

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## Rahil A.

Hello,
Thanks for the reply
Yes, regarding the word علی I agree that it could be read in two ways, alaa or Ali, and I agree that it could be alaa.
and لمثلتکا it is exactly what I was thinking BUT I couldn`t find any arabic(meaninmgful) words for it. So I resisted to suggest it as there seem to be something else.
Good that the interpretations are simillar. If we could gain help from Arabic speakers it would be great...

Regards
Rahil

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## K.SANDRO

HELLO Rahil!
SORRY 2 BE SO LATE  :Frown: 
I HOPE NEW PICS R BETTER AND MORE READABLE :Smilie: 
IF SOMETHING WRONG ,PLS ADVICE ME ...
WITH RESPECT - K.SANDRO
http://pix.ge/x/a/z/criri/
http://pix.ge/x/a/q/9iak6/
http://pix.ge/x/a/b/lrq93/
http://pix.ge/x/b/m/1u9qp/
http://pix.ge/x/a/o/sqqyp/
http://pix.ge/x/a/s/dvuot/
http://pix.ge/x/a/k/yyfmf/
http://pix.ge/x/b/q/20li1/
http://pix.ge/x/b/f/2jjm8/ 
http://pix.ge/x/b/m/hv30v/

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## Rahil A.

Hello K.SANDRO,
Many thanks for sending more/better pictures! I will be informing you if I could find more words or any useful information regarding the inscriptions and pictures.

Regards
Rahil

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## K.SANDRO

Tenks 2 u 4 your diligence!
Waiting 4 good news and some results  :Smilie:

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## K.SANDRO

HELLO Rahil A. !
SORRY 4  MY IMPATIENS  :Smilie: 
I'D L IKE DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION T0 RED MARKED PART OF THE SWARD,BECAUSE ONE MUSEUM EXPERT TELL ME TODAY,THAT CAN READ THERE DATE 1264...
WHAT U THINK ABOUT,PLS?

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## Sancar Ozer

I don't see a "6", I think it is 125... last number might be a "9" or "2". Here are the Arabic numerals so you can identify the date yourself:



Kep in mind,Arabic numerals are read from left to right, unlike Arabic alphabet which is read from right to left.  :Wink: 

For translating Hicri dates to European calender: multiply the date with 0.97 and add 622 (Date X 0.97 + 632)

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## K.SANDRO

Sancar Ozer thanks 4 respond!
One friend from Lebanon also c there 1254-١٢٥۴,but he thinks this is wrong side...
and should keep sward up-down.
   and than appear words التفه  or  التغه (al tufh) and before it و عبد (va 'abd)
   SO,DISCLOSURE OF SWARD-ENIGMA STILL UNDER QUESTION  :Frown: 

p.s. this 4 U  http://www.islamicfinder.org/dateConversion.php

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## Rahil A.

Hi K.SANDRO,

Sorry for the late response!
Hope that its not too late to answer your question!  :Smilie: 
In my oppinion there is No Date written there!there is a word with some dots there...

As your Lebanese friend said, this pic is upside down! therefore reading it from this position is wrong cause this way it looks like numbers but certainly it is not!
If you rotate the picture you`ll see the inscription, and on that square mark, you`ll find a word.
The word is: الثقه which means: Confidence 

Hope it helps

Regards
Rahil

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## K.SANDRO

HI Rahil A.!
THANKS 4 RESPONSE!
PROBLEM  IS THAT,EVEN WITH TRANSLATED FEW WORDS,CAN'T UNDERSTAND FULL TEXT AND MEANING AT ALL...  :Frown: 
 AND WITHOUT THIS NOBODY WANTS 2 EVALUATE SWARD.
SO COMPLICATED EVERYTHING 4 ME EVEN NOT CLEAR : IT IS ARABIC , PERSIAN OR Ottoman Turkey's WRITING...
   REGARDS 
    SANDRO
P.S. CAN U TELL ME WHERE R U FROM? I MEAN LOCATION  :Smilie:

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## Rahil A.

Hi SANDRO,

Just answering the easy part!  :Stick Out Tongue: 
I`ll try to find a good answer for those questions that puzzeled you.

I am IRANIAN  :Smilie: 

Regards
Rahil

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## K.SANDRO

Hi rahil!

Huge respect!

In my city batumi just few days ago opened(restored after 87 years) consulate of iran  :Smilie: 
   sandro

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## K.SANDRO

:Frown:   :Frown:   :Frown:

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