# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  Early Ames And Other's Militia NCO Patterns

## Glen C.

I am seeing some uncommon varieties of these popping up along with the dandy superior officer versions with mameluke guards, chains etc. I am eyeing one of those sitting in a corner apparently unwatched (not the eagle at Salter)  These older roached helmet pommel swords seem to range from pretty mundane to quite interesting.

Now new to me while reading through a book of  the Ames Sword Company history (John Hamilton) is an early militia Roman helmeted shorty. I am still unsure if it was shortened, as we find these in a variety of lengths. This one the shortest (if sold that way) I have encountered. This one is probably from the early to mid 1830s but I have encountered similar Ames pieces with pre American Civil War Masonic etchings (ie the Hamilton example). Ames was a very early seller to various groups and lodges with even the gladius style artillery swords being etched to the Masons and Odd Fellows quite early on.



The patina is quite thick and I'll probably not strip the hilt clean aside from removing loose and impacted dirt but there are traces of the gilt plating a lot of these older ones had.



The shell guard vs the shield we see on a lot of these through the 19th century is shown in Peterson's American Swords book and that hilt just dark wood and an egg pommel, marked (iirc) to the Portsmouth  (brain fade, it might be Maine) N.H. artillery.



So this one is just a 21" blade while the one I'm posting below is 24" and I have also seen 27" and 31" blades with the Ames militia patterns.  This one jst below is a 24" example but with the same cross-hatching and the shield type guard.



Variety is the spice of discovery, really. I am also posting a couple of pictures of a very related example I really can't define as to who and when but it is possibly older than the other two above.




A lot of what we see listed of these knight/Roman pommels can turn out to be one of a masive pile but every now and then, some rather scarce ones do surface.

Cheers

Hotspur; _it is a bit of a chunky monkey compared to the post war fraternal and militia examples_

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## Glen C.

So then another one of these very short ones showed up and since the first one was lonely, came in the door today. Seller pictures, forgive me.



Aside from looking like it was over a fireplace forever, there are some more different details of this one.



Seemingly identical in the castings at first, this example shows less chasing of the visor area and although more of it, the cross hatching and reeding is a bit haphazard and even shows what must have been a blem in an interrupted carving section on the show side of the grip.



This one was never gilded and the blade's edge shows some use at some point. The first one with the shell guard did have substantial gilding and the blade was pretty much pristine, so I had cleaned that one up a bit after all. the wear side has suffered an Elmer's or rubber cement repair after the ferrule had split for whatever reason.



The blade patina is thick but I don't think there was ever any etching on this one either.

Cheers

Hotspur; _a bit serendipitous bumping into these two back to back_

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## Dmitry Z~G

I had an excellent Ames militia nco sword of this type, with a profusely etched blade, in very fine detail.  Ames was doing some fine work then, certainly on par with the select good British cutlers.

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## Glen C.

I remember your listing that one Dmitry and your galleries will hopefully last forever. A museum in itself. I had gotten kind of absorbed in Hamilton's book when these last two came to light. These have been a bit of distraction from looking to find the right Osborn spadroon and the right Bolton sabre.

Cheers

Hotspur; _now wanting an Ames 1870 bayonet but will need the rifle to go with it $$$$_

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## WBranner

Nice variations, I had not seen before.

One nice thing about these is that people almost give them away!

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## Glen C.

> Nice variations, I had not seen before.
> 
> One nice thing about these is that people almost give them away!


 :Big Grin:  :Big Grin:  :Big Grin:  :Big Grin:  :Big Grin:  :Big Grin: 

There is a dandy of a more sophisticated Ames running right now as Masonic and this last one was categorized much the same. There was also what looks to be a Horstman vs Ames squatting eagle listed that just went for very few beans. I wish I had deeper pockets to catch those more than photographically.

Cheers

Hotspur; _really towards the end period of my interests but interesting nonetheless_

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## Glen C.

Another one of these shorties with a clam shell guard recently went through Ebay. This one the shortest  listed yet, at 19" of blade. That unless the seller was just measuring to the guard langet. This one also with a wood grip instead of bone or ivory.











This one with a scabbard and although better location in the listings and saw more activity in bidding, still went for relatively short $$. Some say good things come in three but was not adopted by me this time. If it was an extended family member of the the known sword community, I hope they can share their impressions.

So now, that is four lengths of these short ones (19-20-21-24). Quite a bit more sturdily built than the post war past 1872 examples with lighter blades. They may turn out to be more common than we were seeing in the past, as more seem to come to light.

Cheers

Hotspur; _almost dirk like, the shortest ones_

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## Glen C.

I'm adding this eagle pommel example here as both an Ames and because of the cross hatching of the grip. The screaming eagles themselves could be an interesting story once it all unfolds because of the pattern in use in England long before it becomes an easily recognized Ames type. Either a real disparity in dating the British examples or an evolution. This one traveled through the bay this past week or so and there have been several other Ames eagles and what I am seeing as transitional parts and blades while looking Ames assembled. That is kind of a different story though but I figured the the grip of this bird relevant to the Ames picture overall.

Cheers

Hotspur; _all these popping up over the past few months has been fun to watch, even when I can't have in hand_

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## Glen C.

Another slightly different one showed up in the past weeks with what looks like bayonet blade stock but fullered closer to the point. It seems the really heavy cross guard types are a trio with the last having the terminal bumps what we associate with many of the later militia helmeted guys (and others).

Cheers

Hotspur; _just adding more as I find other examples of the earlier/different Romans_

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## Glen C.

In the best of 2011 thread, I mention one of these inbound with a full spadroon blade. With a full 32" blade, it is the same blade as the NCO 1840 models. Shown here in some quick snaps with a small family of them. The two pictured previously with the 21"blades and another reeded grip with a 26" blade. Those three have a different grip profile, with this spadroon example having more of a curve in profile. Still, not as belled a bottom as the 1872+ grips we see on the later militia and fraternal swords.




All four are natural ivory that have been cored and then have wood plugs ion either end mating with the pommels and ferrules. This last spadroon example has a bit more flair in the ferrule but still very much the Ames build although no marks are apparent unless hidden by the guards. I can't seem to not adopt more and it is the less than common that really draw me back to seek out more.

Cheers

Hotspur; _all still relative bargains looking for good homes_

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## George Wheeler

These pre-Civil War Militia pattern swords are a whole field of study in and of themselves.  The style even carried over past the CW period.  Often unloved and unstudied I am glad you are working with them Glen.  Very neat!

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## T. Donoho

A wonderful thread, Glen.  Thanks.  These types have always intrigued me with their variations.

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## T. Graham

Here are three NCO swords that appear to be basically the same. All are Pre or early post Civil War and German made. The brass scabbards have two rings and a frog stud and a clover leaf tip. But a close examination of the etching patterns and scabbard mountings they have some unique differences.

 No. 849 Is marked Clauberg/Horstmann and seems to be a straight forward NCO sword with martial etching and a bone grip.

No. 3407 Has the Weyersberg knights head, retailed by Horstmann, but the blade etching is Templar and a black wood grip.

No. 2811 Has the Weyersberg knights head, retailed by Horstmann, The etching is not Masonic, but not all that martial, and the grip is bone. There is a Templer type cross on the frog stud. I think it is both NCO and Templar.

The confusion of NCO and Masonic tyler swords seems to have started before the Civil War.

If anyone wants me to make three different replies with more details on these swords just let me know.

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## Glen C.

Thanks for sharing these three German blades. What has been continually curious to me is the use of Ames parts by Horstmann but in the end, maybe not so curious. A real truth of that is one Horstmann scabbard I have in pictures that has the quite obvious Ames scroll marking background.

Hamilton dips into the fraternal use of various swords in his Ames biography/history book. One plate and page showing the shell guard on a reeded grip with very definitive Free Mason blade decoration. Then there are the massive numbers of Odd Fellows gladius swords that predate the ACW but for all intents and virtues exactly the same as the military swords in build. It is much later we start to see the odd blades on the bullseye hilt in use ranging from societies to theater.

For me, it seems not unusual at all for pre war swords appearing as in use by societies with some quite interesting and "early" examples. One sabre for instance with obvious Scottish Rite blue&gilt most likely originally intended for use on that island rather than American markets. Another, a rather intriguing smallsword that turns out to be not just Masonic but a tribute/presentation to those Free Masons in Sweden heavily involved in the military and politics of war.

As a sidebar here in this thread, fine I think but a dedicated thread for fraternal/military crossovers from all makers may already have been posted here or be helpful as a stand alone discussion. I have plenty of those curiosities in files but here are a couple, three from my fraternal folder.

I have another interesting file I have saved about a militia type in the ACW but don't recall if is still listed. The seller wants/wanted $35,000 based on some photographs and initials scratched on a scabbard. That sword alone could be a kegger of a thread regarding swords, provenance and possible realities.  :Wink: 

Having bought the newer fraternal "bible" edited and arranged by Hamilton (fortunately at a discount), the preface and introduction says it all in being immediately useful while leaving so many questions still to be answered. Just this thread on the early Ames examples of militia swords leaves a lot unanswered from the Ames history book. So, so many unmarked while obviously their work. Castings from Ames being used by others and probably freely as sold by Ames to cutlers but also knowing Ames was PO'd that foreign copies were sometimes going so far as to copy near perfectly.

Cheers

Hotspur; _with folders everywhere, I may even have these below already uploaded to albums onboard. Bigger always shots always available_

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## T. Donoho

Glen,

That's an interesting fraternal "small-sword" type sword.  Further comments would be appreciated.  The sword with General Washington's head is interesting--the pommel is like a mini bust of the general to carry around--and it looks well cast too.

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## Glen C.

Hi Tom

The sword with Washington's bust is one of the Patriotic Sons Of America variants and another topic worthy of a stand alone thread, as I have as many examples as have probably already been mentioned in other threads here.

The image of the smallsword was (iirc) culled to my files from the smallsword thread stickied at the top. Again, military/fraternal crossovers really do deserve a stand alone thread. For instance, I am much more fascinated in the sabre :Wink:  but it is not an early Ames militia pattern to be sure. I abstracted about the smallsword and others rather than needing to plow through a couple of other threads in various locations to offer more specifics. It was regarded in a rambling thread about balls on the internet by one of the many forumnauts and his thoughts follow.




> Hi Glen,
> 
>  Interesting Specimen. Gustavus III issued a number of these swords (or very similar) as swords of honour after the war between Russia and Finland (1788-1790). It is rumoured that the masons assisted Gustavus mount a coup d'etat against the Swedish Riksdag (parliament). 
> 
>  All the Best
>  jeff


So there you have it. As much as I know anyway. A sideline from a thread elsewhere on the number and meaning of beaded hilts  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

The Roman helmeted cruciform swords from Ames was the lead to this thread and I have encountered some of the variants that I have posted here. No doubt, I will find more of the examples with cross hatching on the grips but it is those from the 1830s that really drew me to looking further and sharing those here. The full spadroon bladed example a real clunker in handling compared to the 1840 nco counterpart, as the brass hilt of those brings the overall mass back to the hand (I actually like the overall feel of the 1840 nco regulation swords, quite spadroony).

Cheers

Hotspur; _the POSA bust sometimes confused as Knights of Columbus swords and vice versus_

Addendum




> For example, King Gustavus III of Sweden and his brother, Karl, the Duke of Sodermanland, had been initiated into the Strict Observance in 1770. In the following year, one of Gustavus's first acts upon assuming the Swedish throne was to mount a coup d'etat against the Swedish Riksdag [parliament] and reestablish greater powers in the Crown. According to Samuel Harrison Baynard, writing in his book, History of the Supreme Council, Gustavus was assisted largely by fellow Freemasons.


The thread where I scarfed the image and Jeff's thoughts posted Feb this year re the  five ball mystery thread. Also replied to by both myself and you Tom  :Wink:  Oldtimers old or what at play here ?8^)~
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...-masonic-sword

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## T. Donoho

Thank you, Glen!

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## T. Graham

The G. Washington head swords were usually made for Patriotic Sons of a America. I believe they were a xenophobic fraternal order. An example like yours is shown on page 142, of "The American Fraternal Sword". But, on page 138 another is shown as a Knights of Washington. There were other groups that used the GW head. (I wonder if our first president would have approved?)
"The American Fraternal Sword" illustrates many swords that fit close to the NCO pattern. But it is interesting that there are no so called Masonic "tyler's" swords show in this book. They are very NCOish. Did the Masons use this sword or were most of these made for military schools? They were and still are, a major sword market.

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## Glen C.

The real apparent changes between the sword types seems to more reflect usefulness before the war to artifice after the war. Without going to the Ames book to look at the tiny catalog pictures, I know I see the changes in grips and blade widths for the "militia" swords that are listed (iirc) as military association sales/target. 

I do see those without etching or named with the cardboard scabbards being listed by some as Tyler swords but I wonder a bit about that as well because if I am not mistaken, a standing Tyler must first be a Master Mason. Not being a Free Mason, I really can't speak to modern and even historic practice for the use the plain swords saw. One good bet is that they were bought sa well in bulk to be able to offer for a guest's use at meetings and functions. We do know the gladius forms were popular Tyler swords but are we so sure about the cruciform militia pattern? That might well be why they are not regarded in the late book title. Too many supposes to make a definitive statement.

We do have pictures of the swords during the ACW and the sword I was alluding to earlier is the one shown being held by Kady Brownell. As the pictures are circulating more or less at will, I will attach a few of those as educational and in fair use and also a blog page describing her bio and actions during the war.
http://blog.accessible.com/2011/03/k...ne-of-newbern/
(better writing than the word file I had accumulated over time)

Kady on a wiki which might be verbatim to the other and a gaggle of articles about her.
http://civilwarwiki.net/wiki/Kady_Brownell

I don't want to regard the provenance too questionable, as it is still circulating in the market but it is an example of the Horstmann type extant before general fraternal use.

We also see some crude cross applique on some of the wooden gripped examples earlier than the mad push in the last quarter of the 19th century.

Cheers

Hotspur; _Kady's a good example of a broad short blade vs the much narrower and longer blades becoming  common after the war_

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## Mark Cain

Glen, were the clam-shell versions of these swords -- like the one on the top of your first post -- made full length (i.e., 32") and then later cut down to suit whatever purpose they were put to, or were they originally made in a variety of shorter lengths?

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## Glen C.

Hi Mark

From what I am seeing (and shown in those  with a scabbard) the shorter bladed Ames ones all seem to have the cross hatched grips, whether a clamshell or not but note the wooden grip exception and there may be more. This is shown in the Ames book examples of both the plain blades and the Masonic example. However, the egg pommel wood grip with the clamshell in Peterson's bible lists the 25"-26" blade which can be seen in the reeded grip example of my own quartet (compared with the 32" spadroon blade)

As I have seen the shorter blades in quantity and they are for all intents uniform in length, it appears there was an option for length with the same basic blade. That kind of works through with the bayonet bladed one (center fuller double edged) that has a longer than bayonet blade but is the same cross section, simply longer. That one, along with the long spadroon blade could well have been made up of surplus but those shorties quite purposeful (imo and as shown by Hamilton).

With the wood handle clam shown above being a shorty and at least half a dozen of the hatched grip shorties (some with original scabbards) circulating, I don't think they were shortened in the field, simply the same stock as the longer ones. Mine with the doubled hatched grip is singular in my travels but where there is one, there are often more. The shorter blade as listed in the book are these early 1830s swords, while the blue&gilt Masonic sword iirc was the 1850s, so the castings live long and well past the ACW. The third guard type with the heavy build and plain straight quillions but with the federal shield with stars, I am gambling are all post war and it might take a war time catalog showing those to prove me right or wrong. The basic shield chunky monkey guard though is still shown in the later catalog but with the longer narrower blade and the post 1872 grip profiles.

Kady's sword pictured was given to her as manufactured (by another source other than Ames), so there is another precedence for the shorter blade.

Cheers

Hotspur; _I have spent a lot of time looking at the tips and polish of the short ones and it has always looked like factory work_

I could more simply say it in that the hacthed grip examples are always short but one never knows what will surface[/i]

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## T. Graham

This group photo of cadets from an unknown US military schools Has a reeded bone hilt NCO sword. The third photo is another military schools sword with a similar cross guard.

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## Glen C.

Great pictures, thanks. While these both look like post ACW items, we know the guard type was around before and during the ACW. The group photo is interesting as it shows both officer and nco types pf swords being used by cadets

One uncommon variety of these went through Ebay just over the weekend and bidders seemed to go wild with it, This one from Justice in Philadelphia with a spiraled grip. As I am unfamiliar with this one, I'd be hesitant to say it was prewar and I do suspect that the Ames type with the shield bearing stars are all post war (but I could be wrong).

Cheers

Hotspur; _had been watching a Jefferson Guard sword over the weekend as well that got a lot of interest_

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## T. Graham

The Justice is now mine.

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## T. Graham

Would you like some photos of pre and post ACW shield swords?

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## Glen C.

> Would you like some photos of pre and post ACW shield swords?


I suppose we might as well add them here. I know some were Ames and we see other types that would be good in the end for comparison.

That Justice piece was catching my eye but I tend to bow out of a lot of auctions because it is a matter of (mostly) cost but also just saving images of interesting/different pieces. There are a few more up just today of seldom seen and new to me examples.

Cheers

Hotspur; _other odds and ends of expenses have more than used up the annual budget_

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## T. Graham

Here are some examples. The earlier has a thicker, wider and shorter blade and heavier hilt. Compared with the all around lighter post ACW versions. When you put them next to each other, the difference is obvious.

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## Glen C.

Thanks for the side by side comparisons. These are different manufacturers as well aren't they?

The heavy guard continues to show up late in production and even shown on the late Ames catalog pictures. My speculation on the federal shields goes back to the ACW timeline. That in that it would be a reason to distinguish production. A wartime image of one of these with the shield with stars would be telling to me.

There is currently a listing of one of the heavy Ames guard castings with the shield bearing stars and it has a cut down long ricasso diamond cross section blade. In that instance, the blade especially looking to be post war. I just can't get a handle on any information definitely showing the shield with stars as pre war. There were certainly various examples with the wider blades past the war period, so I would agree (obviously) that we see the wider blade on those guards but not as being produced that way before the war. Compare the grip on my 26" bladed heavy guard to the grip of the shield example I show here and also comparative to the long spadroon bladed example with the group as later grip evolution.

Cheers

Hotspur; _what I am seeing with all the heavy Ames stars and shield examples are a much more barreled handle compared to the other/older fat carved grip examples (non of the fat grip I have found show the shield and stars) My hypothesis might be that the barreled grips are an effect of new machines that also parallel the war time industry_

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## T. Graham

With out any marks Ames has to be the maker by default.

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## Simon R.

I had hoped to pick this sword off.  Alas, it was not to be!  The scabbard craftmanship has that early quality and detail.  The blade is also mottoed heavily.  Nice early 1831.  Well, there will be others.  Prices should be coming down in this economy...not going up!  Very distinct bowtie guard.

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## T. Graham

Here is the Justice NCO sword recently on eBay. Anyone care to speculate who made it.

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## Glen C.

Hi Tim

The Justice piece was an interesting draw on the market and because of Justice as the one marking it, kind of points out some of his war time contracts for muskets and bayonets. The guard is pretty crude and although there may be an Ames pommel and possibly blade, I don't think Ames put it together. The shield guard also kind of goes where my thoughts are that the use of the federal shields on guards does not go pre ACW but rather came along with the war and following.

Looking at some of the Philip Justice background, his own business was registered in 1856, after leaving the family hardware business. Where does that lead us?  :Wink:  Back to the Phialdelphia crowd itself with Justice listed as a railroad/way supplier and insurance director in 1861 directories. Certainly he had associates in foundries and the guard looks coarsely cast enough to have been a quicky war time project.

Some thoughts I am gathering and adding to Philly poking around are being drawn from regard to the muskets
http://ww2.rediscov.com/spring/VFPCG...TABASE=objects,

http://www.antiqueguns.com/phorum/re...4237#msg-14237

There is obviously more to be drawn from riffling through old directories. This one from 1862 still listing him as a railway supplier but evidently the company remained into the 20th century.
http://www.archive.org/stream/mcelro...2amce_djvu.txt

Horstmann actually had quite a bit of manufacturing space but I don't see this one coming from their direction either. I may be wildly mistaken.

Cheers

Hotspur; _the spiral grip also seems to be something we see on some other basic militia types after the war_

Edit to add some more Horstmann and Philadelphia info which I had posted not long ago in the collectors tips thread above

An interesting abstract from 1875 for the William H. Horstmann manufactory.

http://www.workshopoftheworld.com/ce...horstmann.html

The root of the site may also be useful for other research of Philadelphia.

http://www.workshopoftheworld.com/index.html

Interesting stuff and all these companies deserve a dedicated discussion of each rather than piecemeal because the thread topic itself may be no draw at all for some with more to contribute. Hence this Ames thread that has branched off to abstracts about the other suppliers/makers.

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## Glen C.

Did anyone here adopt the etched one recently wandering through? A standard mid century Ames type with the plain shield and 26" blade but with a fraternal looking etch.  I guess it might have been a memento mori as well but it seems more masonic or odd fellowish. I didn't spend a lot of time looking at what looks like a cornucopia or horn crossed with a hammer and the outward facing palm (which could be Hiberian Ulsterish as well I guess).  A lodge Tyler's sword mebbe, as not named. The quartered arms etch is interesting.





A bright clean one that went for less than a great many still circulating.  My racks are full though and my budget gone for now but I do still harvest pictorial examples.

Cheers

Hotspur; _I still have to feel that looking is almost as much fun_

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## T. Graham

It went cheap, so I got it. I will give a close look over and report back. How do you lift photos off eBay?

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## Glen C.

Hi Tim,

I had a hunch you were in that bid pack and I'm glad it went low for you. I look forward to your thoughts on it.

The process of culling the images can be done a couple of ways. I am currently using a browser called Opera, that allows a way to easily source (open a page displaying all the html coding) a whole page and then cut&paste the image urls placing one at a time in a separate tab/window. That is pretty tedious work but there is also an option in Opera to elect a different view (user vs author) and that enables me to kind of work around the view/javascript. That also involves a couple of extra steps for each image but is worth the effort for posterity.

Other methods also require an extra step such as print view previews and screenshots via additional software. These software bundles are often included in scanner and camera packages and discs.

Then there are the gracious sellers that make it a bit easier. I try to make it clear that when I share the images that they are posted for educational use and in no way to misrepresent an item Say if I was going to publish a bok or hard article, attributing the photographers and owners might need to go through copyright processes.

The screenshot method is sometimes the most straightforward but my own software for that means another step just like fooling a page with the Opera browsers. I receive no gratuities for pumping Opera as a browser but I have enjoyed its versatilities a great deal while really hating some of the other options including Google's Chrome and Firefox, etc. If I were on broadband, I would also be using an Opera add on called Dragonfly which can extract the images even more easily and seamlessly.

Cheers

Hotspur; _Opera is infinitely tunable to present a view pleasing just about anyone_

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## George Wheeler

Right click your mouse on the picture and select save picture as... to download it to your computer.

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## Glen C.

Hi George

Ebay has disabled the right click for browsers I am familiar with. That has been for some months now.  What browser are you using?

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## Glen C.

> Hi George
> 
> Ebay has disabled the right click for browsers I am familiar with. That has been for some months now.  What browser are you using?


Weird (I am anyway  :Wink: ) I guess MSN and IE (and others) work just fine with the right click.

I will now go back to other browsers to harvest  :Smilie:

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## T. Donoho

This militia type sword thread is great--I have always found these interesting.  Thanks, guys, for posting your information and photos here!

Question: with these swords is the blade configuration a good general indicator of period--apart from hilt styles?  Would wider, oval blades indicate an older sword than a diamond shaped blade?

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## Glen C.

Oh absolutely Tom. There are still lenticular/ovoid blades into the twentieth century though, so there are some other trends that are shown in the hilts and grips. I may feel I am a little at odds with some being listed as pre Civil War but there are some definite traits that do show a progression following a rough guide of the timeline. Blade width as well a real indicator. My little toy eagle sabre and flying eagle pommel are quite late and have very slight narrow blades.

Cheers

Hotspur; _considering the general form of the roman helmet swords lasted a century even without considering the fraternal swords, they had a pretty good run as somewhat iconic_

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## T. Graham

I received the above sword and it is really neat. The seller thinks the etching is Knights of Pythias and/or Odd Fellows. The K of P was formed in 1864 and the IOOF in 1819. I will leave precise speculation as to what lodge it was made for to others. My particular interest is that it may have a cross over NCO function, since I am convinced this happened. It is in unused condition, so it was unlikely to have been carried in the field.

Pictures 1 & 2 are looking down into the cross guard; there is no opening going into the quillion. Horstmann swords of this type have hollow quillions because the cross guard was two mirror castings brazed together. This guard is a one piece casting. Do I need to go into sand casting theory?  I have photos of two piece Horstmann hilts if anyone is interested. Therefore, I will pontificate that this sword was likely/possibly/maybe made buy Ames Mfg. Co., but I could be wrong. My wife, thinks I am wrong quite often. I will not take this one apart to find any markings on the blade tang.

Picture 3 show an "escutcheon" supported by cherubs. One very interesting decoration not shown in the above photos is the "Arc of the Covenant" on photo 4 & 5.

I will make a scabbard for it in the near future.



.

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## Glen C.

I'm glad to see that etched one land in an extended family. There have been some more interesting variants turning up too but here is one I ran across in my eaglehead pommel files while looking for something else in my unsorted in folder. Slowly but surely working on a few thousand eaglehead images.

Cheers

Hotspur; _I assume this one to be an Ames, for its overall characteristics_

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## T. Graham

Cool. Do you know anything else about it? I take it that you do not own it. That is my kind of sword. It seems that there are too many my kind of swords. I am a sick puppy.
Could you email me larger photos of it?

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## Glen C.

Hi Tim

No I don't have any other information on this eagle and unfortunately the only three shots I saved. I will look on another drive to check but I'm pretty sure it was a few years ago and before I had really started looking at these chunky guard Ames patterns. In the back of my mind there is something like this in the Hamilton book but it may have been mentioned elsewhere. I think at the time I was harvesting it more as an eagle instead of considering the Ames  or militia types

Cheers

Hotspur; _I wouldn't be surprised to see one again, as the market seems to turn up the obscure ones_

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## T. Graham

According to Bezdek's American Swords and Sword MakersThis _orstman_ Bros & Co. NCO sword was made from 1850-1851. This is the first urn type pommel I have seen. But, is it a Greek Urn? You may ask, what's a Greek urn? Answer: about 8 bucks an hour. I am still looking for an NCO sword hilt with a henway.
By taking this sword apart I learned; who had it made and when. The quillions are solid so I think, Ames was the manufacturer.

----------


## Glen C.

Well that is interesting. Was this one from the auction two weeks ago? There is another one up now that is similar/the same. Looks like Ames fittings to me, considering the continuing collaboration between them.. Steven's example he is listing as possibly a German ethnic militia troop/group but my thoughts were/are that it might be poor men's engineer swords (See Peterson 127,128 and the later possible uses of the form). Militia engineers?

Consider me generally baffled in general about this one but I am watching the new listing. As we see two, we know now there must be more  :Wink:  It has been awhile since more of the real short ones have turned up as well. I was figuring the current listing must have been a turn around but it looks like it is otherwise.

There was another spadroon bladed Ames type chunky hilt with a 26" musician length blade instead of the 32" bladed one I picked up before. Yet another seen recently with a leather and twisted wire with the old heavy guard look.

Cheers

Hotspur; _dis-assembled!!!!  Oh NOooooo!_

----------


## Glen C.

Peterson is as well at odds with listing Brothers&Co. With the old man dying in 1859 We still see Horstmann&Sons turning up during the war years. Then you have the New York stamp on this as well.

Shouldn't the time line you mention from Bezdek be Horstmann&Sons or Horstmann Sons&Co.?

Me puzzled?????

----------


## Glen C.

So, I was riffling through folders looking for a file I haven't found again (yet) of a scabbard with the Ames scroll background by with the Horstmann lettering on it (as opposed to what we see on the back of other Horstmann scabbards). It is there somewhere hiding, My own filing system is a bit haphazard with get them now and sort, then annotate them as I build posts for threads such as this.

Anyway, what I did find hiding in an obvious Peterson folder were some more urns. This first one you will recognize because of the pommel. These shots were on the Carolina Collectors site and a couple, three years ago before I was even really digging at this topic.

The hilt on this one is very Widmann and maybe during the transition. With that said, the pommels probably stayed with the Horstmann company. Or, a Widmann shop transitional piece but the mad man himself usually had some sort of signature. This one just a Weyersburg marked blade and Horstmann & Sons with Philly on the obverse.  

Cheers

Hotspur; _stay tuned for a couple of more of the urns_

----------


## Glen C.

So now then Tim. Having seen your's surface and with my mentioning that where there are two, there must be more. Here is another sibling that I had plonked into a file back when (old drive to the new one? I don't ken when but awhile ago)? I don't think it is your's or the one currently in flux, so it means another indeed. I have just the two shots of this one as back then I was just saving top knots (as I often do with eagle pommel variations files as handles and blades are often the same dealio). Properties show it was on the old drive before the stroke.

One more quite different but possibly associated urn. These we have shown so far may indeed go back to the engineer regulation as outlined in Peterson. We know now though that a lot of Peterson's examples are not as indicated.

----------


## Glen C.

This one is a bit different and has all the marks of being post war but is it? I dunno. I know I saved it back then on the old drive and put it in the militia folder. One more knight vs ancient Rome at some point but I need to line up all the different helmets in line at some point (picture collection not physically).

Cheers

Hotspur; _I really do need to rename a lot of stuff I harvest, as the random numbers for Ebay pictures are haphazrd for filing_

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## Glen C.

A few more of this hilt and scabbard.

Also the most apocalyptic of the helmet heads  :Hyuk!: 

We can see on one side of the urn that something is missing, That very well mean the entire late urn routine is fraternal but I don't know other that what Gallowglass id mentioning in his thoughts on these urns with the foliate/leaf routine.

----------


## T. Graham

> Well that is interesting. Was this one from the auction two weeks ago? There is another one up now that is similar/the same. Looks like Ames fittings to me, considering the continuing collaboration between them.. Steven's example he is listing as possibly a German ethnic militia troop/group but my thoughts were/are that it might be poor men's engineer swords (See Peterson 127,128 and the later possible uses of the form). Militia engineers?
> 
> Consider me generally baffled in general about this one but I am watching the new listing. As we see two, we know now there must be more  It has been awhile since more of the real short ones have turned up as well. I was figuring the current listing must have been a turn around but it looks like it is otherwise.
> 
> There was another spadroon bladed Ames type chunky hilt with a 26" musician length blade instead of the 32" bladed one I picked up before. Yet another seen recently with a leather and twisted wire with the old heavy guard look.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Hotspur; _dis-assembled!!!!  Oh NOooooo!_


This is one of the two recently listed on Feebay. The price I paid is considerably under the other sword's 'Buy it now'. 
In the pre ACW period Militia units were private groups that could be considered a form of lodge or corporation. When it came to their regalia, it was ordered out of a catalog. The leadership or assigned committee could pick and choose what ever it wanted. They would usually follow some tradition, but they could get creative. I do not have a good pre ACW Horstmann reference and have yet to see any reference for NCO swords of this period, so for now, we can only go with what we know.
We are the first to seriously examine this ignored area of sword collecting. The pre ACW officers swords get all the attention, because the are pretty and were kept. The rather drab, humdrum NCO swords were neglected and discarded. 
I think I am the first person that has had the nerve to disassemble some of these swords. It is rather easy and I can reassemble them with little, if any, trace. Before I took one apart, did we know the quillions may be hollow? We did not know for sure who made the components, assembled or retailed.

----------


## T. Graham

> So now then Tim. Having seen your's surface and with my mentioning that where there are two, there must be more. Here is another sibling that I had plonked into a file back when (old drive to the new one? I don't ken when but awhile ago)? I don't think it is your's or the one currently in flux, so it means another indeed. I have just the two shots of this one as back then I was just saving top knots (as I often do with eagle pommel variations files as handles and blades are often the same dealio). Properties show it was on the old drive before the stroke.
> 
> One more quite different but possibly associated urn. These we have shown so far may indeed go back to the engineer regulation as outlined in Peterson. We know now though that a lot of Peterson's examples are not as indicated.


We must always be gratefull to Harold Peterson for getting us started. The scholarship on The American Sword has expanded exponentially since 1954.

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## T. Graham

> Peterson is as well at odds with listing Brothers&Co. With the old man dying in 1859 We still see Horstmann&Sons turning up during the war years. Then you have the New York stamp on this as well.
> 
> Shouldn't the time line you mention from Bezdek be Horstmann&Sons or Horstmann Sons&Co.?
> 
> Me puzzled?????


Well the sword is marked Horstmann Bros & Co., New York and on page 274 Bezdek notes: Horstmann Brothers & Co., 8 Maiden Lane, 1850-1851. Further down, Horstmann Brothers & Co., 27 Maiden Lane, 1871-1893. Page 276 William H. Horstmann & Sons, Philadelphia, PA, 1843-1848 as an authorized agent for Ames Manufacturing Co. On and on. Everyone here should have a copy of Bezdek.

----------


## Glen C.

Well, I knew my eagle sabre with the screw top pommel was hollow inside because that one was apart. What is something I have seen from your own collection is that some of the "old standard" guard look got smaller, and as you mention hollow. Do you know this one with the leather and wire?

I am also (in the back of my mind) wanting to be aware of what Bannerman was up to but I have never seen any of th catalogs aside from little snippets. Very few images. How many of the oddball stuff might have been leftover parts assembly?

Cheers

Hotspur; _some of my eagle pommel passion parallels the helmet heads but with the eagles I have pretty much started over again and capping my thoughts well before the MExican War_

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## T. Graham

This the best one I own. I wonder what maybe marked on it? Should I?

----------


## T. Graham

> Well, I knew my eagle sabre with the screw top pommel was hollow inside because that one was apart. What is something I have seen from your own collection is that some of the "old standard" guard look got smaller, and as you mention hollow. Do you know this one with the leather and wire?
> 
> I am also (in the back of my mind) wanting to be aware of what Bannerman was up to but I have never seen any of th catalogs aside from little snippets. Very few images. How many of the oddball stuff might have been leftover parts assembly?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Hotspur; _some of my eagle pommel passion parallels the helmet heads but with the eagles I have pretty much started over again and capping my thoughts well before the MExican War_


I think this is a post ACW assembly. I past on it. That is all I need, another NCO sword to take apart.

----------


## T. Graham

> Well, I knew my eagle sabre with the screw top pommel was hollow inside because that one was apart. What is something I have seen from your own collection is that some of the "old standard" guard look got smaller, and as you mention hollow. Do you know this one with the leather and wire?
> 
> I am also (in the back of my mind) wanting to be aware of what Bannerman was up to but I have never seen any of th catalogs aside from little snippets. Very few images. How many of the oddball stuff might have been leftover parts assembly?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Hotspur; _some of my eagle pommel passion parallels the helmet heads but with the eagles I have pretty much started over again and capping my thoughts well before the MExican War_


So far the only hollow quillions I have seen are on Horstmann National Shield swords. These were probably not cast by Ames. Look on the top or bottom of the quillions, you may see a solder joint. If so, it is hollow. The reason for a two piece cross guard is the it can be made larger and thicker. To sand cast it in one piece can result in shrink marks. On these cross guards you will see a decorative set back. This is not just a decorative effect, but it helps control shrinkage. When should I start the theory on sand casting?

I look through my 1933 Bannermans and did not see any NCO swords that apply to this thread. But that does not mean he did not create some.

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## Glen C.

> Well the sword is marked Horstmann Bros & Co., New York and on page 274 Bezdek notes: Horstmann Brothers & Co., 8 Maiden Lane, 1850-1851. Further down, Horstmann Brothers & Co., 27 Maiden Lane, 1871-1893. Page 276 William H. Horstmann & Sons, Philadelphia, PA, 1843-1848 as an authorized agent for Ames Manufacturing Co. On and on. Everyone here should have a copy of Bezdek.


My further curiosity about the years mentioned with the Maiden Lane activities would be where and what were the brothers up to during the twenty absent years from Bezdek's notes as you relate them. The data seems to be incomplete and possibly misleading. 

Peterson shows the brothers in partnership with Franklin at a different address in 1859, so that may fill in some blanks

Does Bezdek show a blade stamp as you reference the Brothers in 1850-1851, or is it just a line from a directory?


Cheers

Hotspur; _Ames invoices to all the Horstmann's would be interesting to see_

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## Glen C.

For instance and just quickly looking outside of Bezdek's notes

 “THE RECRUIT, A COMPILATION OF EXERCISES AND MOVEMENTS OF INFANTRY, LIGHT-INFANTRY AND RIFLEMEN”. Capt. John T. Cairns. Hardcover 1853 Edward Walker, 114 Fulton St., And Sold By Horstmann Bros. & Allien, 8 Maiden Lane, New York.

So there is the address later than the 50-51 period.

It is why I am concerned at times when dates for swords are affixed by how any of the authors are listing dates from directories unless there are blade stamps that can be verified to being built in a specific timeline.

Thoughts?

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## Glen C.

Then a Founding directory from 1917

FOOT PROTECTORS Horstmann. Wm. H.. Co., 5th and Cherry, Phila.

The complications in using directories to affix production numbers and specific days/years of assembly.

Specific contracts, a little easier to relate to (when available).

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## T. Graham

I just provide the RAW data. Others can delve into the details. To date an NCO sword as pre ACW, keeps me happy.

Here is another RAW data from my collection. I will call it an Ames made for now. I wonder if my gastroenterologist has an endoscope that can get down into guard and see what is there? He seems to be able to stick it in my little openings. I have seen my esophagus from my stomach's point of view. 
It needs to be reshot. What is the trick to get the pictures in the order you want them?

----------


## Glen C.

That's a great piece with the etch so bright. Going by Hamilton's history of Ames book, the etching matches up to his pages and the style of the etch absolutely the "50s but it could be later.

That's the thing on dating them though and another aspect I have been studying and shown some of is the hand carved vs more machined grips. the progression between the symmetrically barreled and lined vs irregularities. I know a lot of folk regard them all as an 1850 nco militia pattern but the ones that I started with in the thread are 1830s.

On Horstmann at Maiden Lane, it seems like a lot of folk were in the area, with Schuyler Hartley and Graham also on the strip. We also know from other buffs that the Horstmann Bros were at the first address (after their dad first listing there) because of all the uniform bits and goods during the war years.

At any rate, it is nice to see a lot of variety, especially the etched ones. I think a lot of my current interest goes along with my budget right now but there are a double handful of four figure pieces that pique my interests as well. Those are types I can only hope to find at a bargain but that I spend a lot more time in looking for them.

I'm not sure about how the system may arrange pictures by itself but the thumbs/pictures can be placed in order in the text area itself, two different ways. One is using the paperclip icon instead of the manage attachment link. The other by using the album option and inserting the pictures with img pic and smallpic routines/tags  The pic tags just like img but smallpic tags can be used to redirect to a full size picture ie a large thumb that opens full size. More work than many will trouble with though. Using the paperclip drop down lets you place the thubs in the order you want to, if used in the text entry window.

Cheers

Hotspur; _all that probably tough to describe without playing around with all the buttons_

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## Glen C.

Was this one of your's Tim? I had culled the pictures back in the fall of 2009. It came to mind as labeled as a Horstmann and with an etch that includes an anchor (so I have it filed as naval).

I suppose I should amend the thread title to reflect all the older militia nco swords. Add ing the other manufacturers and retailers variants has certainly helped my own eye in spotting some significant differences in the assemblies.

This one must have been assembled in the Horstmann shops/factory but the castings really do look like the Ames work.  A difference I am seeing on the older wide blades is the short ricasso on the Horstmann blades which is lacking on the old Ames.

Anyway, another from my files and while I was actually looking for page screens regarding helmet evolution but distracted by the first empire, consulat period piece on ebay this week.  A strange epee that one.

Cheers

Hotspur; _this one was sandwiched in some old files between commissioned officer helmet pieces_

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## Glen C.

In other news on these from my end was winning the no reserve on the other urn and the shorter spadroon bladed example. The urn from Crain appears to be the one I photo archived back in 2008. Apparently that one went to Gagliano, then bought back at some point. When the first recent urn went up and then another was being sold, I at first thought it to be just reselling. So anyway, the projection of three of them looks to be just two, to date.

The shorter spadroon bladed example has an older grip carving than the longer spadroon I had picked up. I still need to take some decent pictures to try to show the evolution of the grip reeding. The older cross hatched not a problem to date but the transition on the Ames examples regarding profile shape, uniformity of the reeding and the materials themselves. The Horstmann grips easy to spot compared to the variations on the Ames groups.

Jonathan Hopkins had sent me some Hartzler pages at one point during this thread and one bit of text there discusses the two helmet types of the centurion vs knight. The two types distinctively different but all generally regarded as knight helmets.

Cheers

Hotspur; _pommel typologies, guard typologies, grip typologies and blade typologies could turn the militia nco subject into quite an essay_

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## T. Graham

> Was this one of your's Tim? I had culled the pictures back in the fall of 2009. It came to mind as labeled as a Horstmann and with an etch that includes an anchor (so I have it filed as naval).
> 
> I suppose I should amend the thread title to reflect all the older militia nco swords. Add ing the other manufacturers and retailers variants has certainly helped my own eye in spotting some significant differences in the assemblies.
> 
> This one must have been assembled in the Horstmann shops/factory but the castings really do look like the Ames work.  A difference I am seeing on the older wide blades is the short ricasso on the Horstmann blades which is lacking on the old Ames.
> 
> Anyway, another from my files and while I was actually looking for page screens regarding helmet evolution but distracted by the first empire, consulat period piece on ebay this week.  A strange epee that one.
> 
> Cheers
> ...


It is not one of mine, but I do covet it. As I have mentioned in previous posts, Horstmann used a two piece cast brass cross guard. I can not see this sword close enough to confirm it. As for the anchor etching; could this be naval militia?

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## George Wheeler

> It is not one of mine, but I do covet it. As I have mentioned in previous posts, Horstmann used a two piece cast brass cross guard. I can not see this sword close enough to confirm it. As for the anchor etching; could this be naval militia?


I have also seen this anchor motif on Rhode Island sword blades so that might be another possibility.

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## Glen C.

> I have also seen this anchor motif on Rhode Island sword blades so that might be another possibility.



Well, there's a smack my head Doh! moment for me  :Wink:

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## Glen C.

I spent some time with drives and files tonight and came across an Ames as shiny as a new penny. This centurion kind of top of the line for the old helmet but with the fancier guard. Marked to Ames and the etch very 1850s.

This one culled from Gutterman's pages (iirc) back in the fall of 2009. Danged if I can find the overall picture that is hiding somewhere.

Cheers

Hotspur; _kind of a tweener  twixt the primo mamelukes and the plain Jane nco_

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## T. Graham

Now I know what the etching on mine may have been like. If you find the full length photo, please post it.

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## T. Graham

These are shown in the 1882 Ames catalog. It is a well made, general purpose, short rapier type, sort of NCO sword, that gets no respect. Sure, it is post ACW, but it is a nice sword that fits in this category. It is useless as a weapon, but it is cute.

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## Glen C.

> Now I know what the etching on mine may have been like. If you find the full length photo, please post it.


I'll keep an eye out for it but I probably miscued when I was first saving the images. I'll have to run a search and see if it comes up. I do have another six pictures of it in sections. The foliate etches and the blade with scabbard in sections.

I'm sure this one or another like it will pop up in time. The Hamilton book has the etchings by timeline, which is where I know them from.

I have a couple of more shots of the apocalyptic Marvin the Martian helmet as well. :Wink:  :Hyuk!: 

Cheers

Hotspur; _I honestly didn't think I would be as involved with these back then but was reagarding mostly pommels and guards more than blades.._

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## Glen C.

More

I will do a drive search for the missing overall shot but it may never have taken, or I replaced one with another in the course of saving them.

In dealing with the Ebay harvesting now, if I am saving many of the Ebay hosted pictures, renaming them at the same time avoids a real jumble that ensues.

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## T. Graham

I think this entire sword was imported by Horstmann. It is basically the same as a French M1822 NCO sword. I also speculate, that it maybe a precursor for the USMC NCO sword.

I can post photos of the French M1822.

I think we need a little controversy in this forum, so I will throw this out. Horstmann and M.C. Lilley created the USMC NCO sword to use up excess parts left over from the ACW and were still mounting these parts into the 1930's.

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## Glen C.

I may be wrong but my understanding on the Marine NCO sabres is they are post ACW and assimilating the swords twixt the two reigns of the mameluke. When commissioned marine officers were directed to put the mameluke down, the form intended was to be akin to the army foot officer sword. That doesn't dismiss later use of parts or entire swords to fill contracts for marine nco needs but my contention would be that most regard the current marine nco sword to have been given to the ncos when the mameluke was re-introduced and those swords of the form found in the foot officer's swords.

If we are going to go beyond the cruciform militia swords for nco swords, we have many variants to yet consider. Attached here is an ACW era wood gripped Ames nco type.  Certainly not regulation for the army but for whom then? This one circulated through the bay in July of the past year.

Cheers

Hotspur; _the guardless 619 Ames makes some sense to me now as well and do see a few of them from time to time_

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## Glen C.

Then we have the long and short of the brass hilted regulation forms. The short Roby one here with traces of gilt left and an etched blade.

Cheers

Hotspur; _there was a weird Ames musician piece recently and I forget if I saved the pictures (a Chicago retailer and Healy/Healey owner named piece_

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## Glen C.

I don't have the associated plates for French forms but here is a fairly comprehensive list of French swords. I am having a hard time finding an 1822 infantry nco type?

edit to add

The French 1821 infantry officer model is what the sword you show seems to indicate, while the U.S. foot officer swords were based on a later French model?

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## T. Graham

This the sword that I mentioned above. Please set me straight as to it's specific model. I figure it to be an NCO, because it uses a frog.

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## Glen C.

American nco but based on a commissioned officer type that predates the U.S. adoption of the foliate acanthus guard foot officer swords, then also applied to the Marines use. I have no doubt your notes of later assembly must be true, or in that vein but not what the other Marine nco swords look like after the mameluke was re-introduced for commissioned officer use.

Cheers

Hotspur; _We see also in later years the current army nco sword as adopted from the fancier general officer 1840 cast grips instead of the plain egg pommel._

----------


## George Wheeler

Not to go too far afield, but I see what you are both saying about what this "French pattern" sword is.  I agree that Horstmann made/assembled/imported these "French" swords and sold them to American Militia.  I agree that they are most probably US Militia swords worn by both officers and NCOs.  I don't see any verifiable USMC lineage  though.  Here are some photos of two of these that I would argue is an Officer style worn on slings with a two ring steel scabbard and a NCO style worn in a frog.  The Officer style sword is a Horstmann & Sons Philadelphia while the NCO style is a Peter Daniel Luneschloss (PDL) with a top sewn French style leather scabbard with no French markings.

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## T. Graham

This is the first one of this version of the militia NCO swords I have seen, but, is it militia? There are no other marks on it. Blade is thinner and a bit longer than some of the similar swords that have been determined as actual NCO swords.
The cross guard is the two piece casting that is typical of these Hostmann made swords.

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## Glen C.

Hi Tim

There had been a keystone guard on the bay in the past month or so that had the langets bent outward (maybe they were looking for marks) and that one immediately brought to mind the keystone in the fraternal bible KM444 on page 169. The scabbard looks Horstmann enough that I think it is like this one.

The current Wicker Man (sic)  :Wink:  is worth watching, if you are not already  I'll have to say the pool seems to have drained a bit but before we know it, more curious ones turn up.

Do all the two piece guards show the seam clearly, or are they at times pretty well blended out and invisible? I had spotted a few with the seam showing.

I have been digging at Maiden Lane a good bit lately as well, looking at the growth on that row and so many military supply shops taking up shop there. Jonathan Hopkins recently presented me the Schuyler Hartley & Graham catalog. I had some of it in pdf but the entire catalog handy to have. It was that company and  Wolfe of decades past that had me digging at Maiden Lane. A grandson (?) John Wolfe was the end of the hardware, import and military merchandiser with an early skyscraper (13 stories) that was finished just before his death. That building as well was demolished in the end in the last century The shop space for SH&G looked pretty impressive for its day. I am working on more for all the shops we bump into on the sword/militaria end.

Cheers

Hotspur; _other distractions have been keeping me busy this quarter_

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## T. Graham

One and the same. Since I had to repair the langets, I figured what the hell.
The cross guard is a two piece construction which seems to typical of Horstmann. You can clearly see the joint.
The blade has suffered and there is none of the etching shown in the fraternal sword book.

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## T. Graham

Tim Graham will be at Maryland Arms Collectors table X26, March 16 to 18. This is the best antique weapons show in the world.

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## T. Graham

Pick up this little gem NCO at Baltimore. Bezdek dates Baker & McKinney 1864-1883. Here is another partially silvered scabbard; but I have yet to see a silvered hilt.  The scabbard mounts should suffer wear where it rubs against the frog. If the hilt was silvered, there should be some remnants in the recesses.
I do not see a parting line on the cross guard, so I attribute it to Ames.
I had to put the scabbard back together. Can you find the repair?

----------


## T. Graham

Here is another gem from Baltimore. According to Bezdek, Vergil Price an agent for Emerson & Silver and was in Business from 1838 - 1858 and again 1868-1875.
Now E & S was making swords in quantity from 1860 to 1865???
The was a William Price Co. 1858-1860 who, according to RB is the brother of Virgil and is listed as a partner. 
I will ask the the more scholarly of us if they have some clarification.
There was gold paint on the scabbard mountings and it is possible that this is a marriage; but close enough, that I won't quibble.

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## Glen C.

Hi Tim

It looks like it was a successful hunt at Baltimore. I need to digest some of this I see and indeed, a rather massive Easter spread today. What I do see of the second is that the etching for the Emerson/Price piece looks more like the earlier patterns in the 30's/40's as opposed to the other above with the shield guard which does look like the later "pick from the catalog" type etching that was becoming quite common in later decades and as with some other blades, does look like Ames etchings. The grip on the first though not in line with the earlier Ames grips either. I need to digest some more. I don't see the mend in the scabbard so have to say "well done!". 

While it has been summer like outdoors here, I am still buried within this cave and need to dig out for the summer. I lost one drive and this time may never get that one back but a fair share between September and January were recent files I had put online. Dates and bios I am tackling from some other angles than the books and I'll poke around some for Price this next week.  I did pick up a Horstmann recently but it falls out of the cruciform and helmet head category.

Cheers

Hotspur; _not sure how I got sunburnt on a cloudy day but I got some on the highway home_

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## Glen C.

Starting with an old haunt at Ron Rubles good information pages




> Swords marked with PRICE were made from 1838 to 1875. The list at the bottom of this page shows each type of blade markings and the years they were manufactured. Bothers Michael Price and Virgil Price were in business in New York from 1838 until 1858. In 1858, William Price purchased William H. Milnor Co and formed the WILLIAM PRICE CO with Virgil Price as partner. In 1864 Virgil Price patented a sword hanger which was manufactured by EMERSON & SILVER . In 1868, D. B. Howell purchased the William Price Co. and Virgil Price operated his own company again until 1875. In 1873, Virgil Price had a design patent for the sword hilt and scabbard of the Independent Order of Odd Fellows. Many of the swords made by Virgil and William Price were  society swords which usually has letters of the hilt or scabbard which  identifies the society that used them (example - K of C for Knights of Columbus) and the blades are sometimes etched with the owners name.


Sword blade markings and dates of manufacture:  

WILLIAM PRICE 
 New York NY 1838-1858 	 

WILLIAM PRICE CO. 
 New York NY 1858-1868 

VIRGIL PRICE 
 New York NY 1838-1858
 and 1868-1875


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now not surprising to me all things considered, there is no notice of them in Peterson, but are noted in the quite new fraternal bible that actually has a section regarding patents and Virgil's casting fittings directly on scabbards filed in 1873 pat #139,023

More later

Hotspur; _several eagles have a lot of my attention this week_

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## T. Graham

Hello George.

 I don't see the mend in the scabbard so have to say "well done!". 

Look about an inch and a half from the tip.

----------


## Glen C.

Another of this variety got my attention and then brought into the fold here. This one with a silver plated scabbard and the remains of silver on the hilt. Since the hilt had already been rubbed off (some silver left in crevices, etc) and the scabbard still has lots of coverage, I decided to use some of the Silver Secret product I have left from other projects. The hilt, ferrule and pommel took the solution very well. I am cleaning up the scabbard finish a bit as well.

This one has a rather odd blade length and comes in at 24" vs the two shorties I have at less than 20" and not the interim 26". The scabbard would fit my 26" one, as it is 27" throat to tip.

The Hamilton Ames book lists one silver plated as masonic, so this one very well may have been meant for society. That book example is the only early one I can find. The scabbard also unfamiliar to me.

Cheers

Hotspur; _very time I think I am done with more adoptions of these, another comes along that I seem to need_

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## T. Donoho

Glenn,

Would you say that the hilt and mounts are German silver or a "pot metal"?

I do have one of the brass hilted/mounted variety in my collection with an eliptical blade--I just thought it was nice so I picked it up.

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## Glen C.

Hi Tom

This last one posted is definitely silver on brass, as Ames was doing silver electroplating by 1851. I had thought my very late piece with the winged eagle pommel was white brass/German silver but I was mistaken when prompted to take a closer look (and taking a knife to a portion of the guard). That one as well is plated brass but in that case looks pretty nickel/chrome. That had come up in the short swords thread from a week or so ago regarding the theatrical/fraternal short swords. I need to dig out my needle files to check some others to reveal the insides.

Congratulations on your own adoption of one. What began as just one for me became a handful and now a small flock.

Cheers

Hotspur; _two shorts, two mediums, a long and short spadroon blade pair and then one of the Horstmann urn pommels_

----------


## T. Graham

I have owned and seen many 'costume' swords with extra long scabbards. Since most of these sword were worn and not actually used for anything, the long scabbard looked better as part of a costume/uniform. When drawn, no one would notice.

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## Glen C.

Not used for anything pretty much describes this one. The blade is unmarked and pristine, complete with the leather washer down in there. The shallow depth of plating also. There is wear through to the brass where the baldric rubbed it and also towards the toe. There was a full scale sword hilt with very short blade, along with a sectional scabbard we see occasionally and in the books. Those items carrying all the symbology of the masons (et al).

Cheers

Hotspur; _a few more of the scabbard_

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## Glen C.

Yet another of these old patterns has come to the ranks. This one with a 25" blade and the shell guard. A bone grip on this one but similarly identical to many of the 1840s design.






This is another that may well be later than the other cross hatch grips I have with ivory and the longer blade may point to the 1850s and beyond. A distinction I have seen in the Ames progression is as mentioned earlier in the thread is the evolution to a very barreled look to the grips, then later the more pear (or bottom heavy) grips after the Civil War. The Horstmann grips with a finer reeding with more flutes and as far as I have seen, all bone.

Cheers

Hotspur; _when is too many not enough?_

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## Mark Cain

Here's a similar sword with a 24.75" blade and fluted bone grip.

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## Glen C.

Thanks Mark

That is another great example of the shell guard. The Hamilton books show this guard and grip combination on an example with  a very defined Masonic decoration on the blade but so far, very few with the shell guard turn up with any blade etchings at all.

Here is my group as of now. The two spadroon blades on our right.





Far right is a very straight cylindrical grip and then towards the center, you can see how curved they get by the '60's.

An edit to mention that if you open these in a new tab/window, they will appear larger. The board sizes them to suit narrower browsers/screens.

Cheers

Hotspur; _I keep saying to myself there must be room for one more but just these are filling up what I have in the corners_

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## T. Graham

Saw it on feeBay. He seems too young to be a militia NCO, so a cadet is more likely.  Any Ideas?

----------


## T. Donoho

> Saw it on feeBay. He seems too young to be a militia NCO, so a cadet is more likely.  Any Ideas?


I saw this, too, and wondered about it.

Glen--that sword with the urn form pommel is interesting.

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## Glen C.

I don't know enough about the photography to guess at the date but it is a backwards image. It must have been a trying pose, as the lad has the sword resting on a tunic button. Agreed, a cadet. Nice picture.


 As to the urn pommel, there has been some earlier mention of them on a previous page in this thread. My example was circulated through some west coast collectors and one of them Leonard Garigliano. There was some thought that this variant was targeted to the Turnvereins (Turners) but I have no other explanation aside from the swords appearing in photos of the group (not yet recovered). An internet search for turnverein militia shows the group (as a name) was active in joining federal effort but at the same time consider it was a large social group as well that may explain it as another early society sword vs a dedicated weapon of the war. My sword came and went through Steven Crain's hands (Gallowglass) and was listed a couple of times before the cost came down. So, the foliate counterguard may seem unique to a specific group but it is just a theory.


As to the urn itself, look to sword #170 in Harold Peterson's bible and you will see a slim Horstmann artillery sword with a Weyersburg epee blade. The fitment aside from the urn is reminiscent of the use in continuing the style of late Widmann, sans the grape & leaf ferrules.  There has been continuing a prime example of that Horstmann type listed on Ebay and for quite the price.


Cheers


Hotspur; _there is a Time Life illustration with a soldier but where on my drives it is, I just don't know_

----------


## Glen C.



----------


## T. Donoho

Thanks, Glen, for that information.  I admit this is not my area, but I do have one nice example of this type in my collection--such a reasonable asking price that I just had to pick it up.  These seem to come in degrees of quality and blade width/length, with or without etching.  How do we determine if they were carried as militia or society swords?  Are there clues?

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## Glen C.

Well Tom,


As they were standard militia patterns along with fraternal use (fraternal moreso after the ACW), what I have approached it as is concentrating on the original Ames patterns of the 1840s and 1850s. This thread has grown to include many variations, as has my own collection of them. If you look to that urn in my collective picture and just to our right of that, you will see a significant difference in the way the reeding of the handles was done. Those two most certainly Horstmann vs Ames construction. However, Ames caught up in by the 1860s in the way the grips were cut with machines, rather than sitting at a bench carving one line at a time on a rotating stand/jig. We see the evolution of the Ames grips themselves becoming less asymmetrical.


Post ACW, it is really anyone's guess for the unmarked and undecorated swords. We see blades getting narrower and by the 1870s, the grips sleeker and bottom heavy on some of them. Kind of a squash shape instead of the barrel look or straighter columns. There are a great number of later swords on the market, while the truly pre ACW swords are getting fewer and further apart. A red vellum scabbard (for instance) more likely a group buy for a society. The Ames and other catalogs show this fairly clearly.


Cheers


Hotspur; _So much of understanding these is much like any sword variety in looking closely at differences, rather than just a general profile._

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## T. Donoho

Thanks, Glen, for that useful information.

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## Glen C.

Text for that photo above RE: the 7th NY militia circa 1862


Cheers


Hotpsur; _I had forklifted many tons of the Time Life Civil War series books in the late 1980s and generally failed to appreciate the content, even passing on to another an old volume of Matthew Brady photography. (I was kind of sick of looking at books by the late 1990s but it was honest work at the time)_

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## T. Donoho

I have reviewed this thread--very enjoyable!

----------


## T. Graham

Well, as I had thought the military schools used them. This photo is VMI 1870-80. It only seems logical that Military schools used them because they are so common. Can you see that the knight is facing the viewer.

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## T. Graham

The knight's head seemed a little odd, but I lacked the endoscope and the angle to see what could be marked on the Ricasso. Surprise, surprise.
Schuyler, Hartley and Graham 1867-1878, were in business 1867-1878, and Hartley & Graham 1878-1899. This sword was likely imported in 1878 and was caught in the over lap.
Anyone seen anything like it?

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## Glen C.

> Anyone seen anything like it?



Well, we have now !  :Big Grin:   I don't find it surprising, really because we know SH&G offered building swords to suit and definitely imported at least blades from Germany (as well as entire swords)..  The Horstmann swords as well. There is really no way to definitely date so many, even if a blade might speak to one specific time frame. An assembly could be put together anytime within many decades of operations.


The horizontal bars on the knight heads I first see in example of in Hamilton's Ames book and Hartzler's Lattimer collection book The casting is substantially different than this one but still a good note of the evolution of perception between a knight vs Roman helmet.  It is one of those Americanized anomalies that persists. Recently, another discussion in the use of a caduceus for the US medical corp when mythology does not bear that out.  Looks cool though with the wings and two snakes. Just so born the knights head pommels of America vs the French origin of Roman empires.


That is an impressive etched blade from Clauberg


Cheers


Hotspur; _still looking for more early Ames examples_

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## T. Graham

When received the scabbard was was a piece of burned, incomplete leather. I had no choice but to replace it.

----------


## T. Graham

There is little difference between the hilt this one and the Horstmann types, except this is a one piece sand casting as opposed to the two piece method used by Horstmann's foundry. So I am going to assume it is an Ames' hilt. Close examination down inside the 'shield', with a flash light, does not show any maker or retailer mark. I will not take it apart. 
The interesting surprise was the leather cover over the entire length of the scabbard. I think the 'steel' scabbard was dented early in its use and covering with leather was easier than trying to remove the dents. Steel scabbards seem to be very uncommon. I would date it as the immediate post ACW period.
The hand applied etching is an unsophisticated.

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## Glen C.

#625 in the Ames catalog but that one with a leather scabbard. The finial on your scabbard looks like the earlier otype but even the 1885 catalog shows it in the leather scabbard fittings.  There is a bit in the Ames book aboout steel hassles with scabbards but that was early (iirc and maybe brought up previously). The blade etch may show something in comparison but looks definitely later than the examples shown in HAmilton's pages.  Definitely a heavier etch than the 1850s and earlier stuff.

Cheers

Hotspur; _blade width a gauge of the times as well. Length? Figure 25 1/2" + from the 1850s on_

----------


## T. Graham

The is no doubt that the leather was added later. While nicely done , it was not done by a scabbard maker. The 625 is very similar but with a 'grooved' or fullered blade. The Ames catalog came out in 1882 after they took over Gaylord. So I do not think it applies to this sword.
Attached is a 627 with the 'grooved' blade.

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## Glen C.

I'll take your word for it. The pages I have don't list blade particulars for the 625. I mention it as the drawing shows the tighter symmetrical reeding of the later years and the hilt parts the same.

----------


## Patrick H

You seem to have a great deal of knowledge of this style of sword.  I was wondering if you can shed any light on this Ancient Order of Hibernians sword that I just picked up that is in the style of the NCO Militia sword.  The thing that I am most interested in is it's age.  Any help that you can give me would be greatly appreciated. The maker's mark says "Chas Svendsen/ Cin Ohio and the blade is 30" long. 

Thanks,

Patrick

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## Glen C.

Hi Patrick

Welcome To Sword Forum International


Charles Svendsen operated a business from 1866 to 1901, when he died but the company stayed in business until 1925.

This sword looks like one that had been on the neaca.com site for some years. I cannot say that the sword was produced by Ames but it does have some of those traits and I would think this sword from before the 1880s, going by some of the manufacturing traits. I cannot be sure of a specific date.  On these fraternal swords, if there was an owner's name etched on the blade, that may prove to be searchable and provide the best dating possible.

The Hiberians were a Catholic charity group and they were created some decades before this sword may have been made. You may want to network with historians of that fraternity to determine if they are familiar with similar swords but most groups are not very helpful in terms of reasearhing sword types, while sometimes helpful for searching out personal information.

Cheers

Hotspur; _the sword would seem to predate the Virgil Price castings projections of the mid 1870s. So, maybe soon after Svendsen set up shop_

----------


## Patrick H

Thanks for your quick response. The organizations history is pretty interesting - their charity work was important but it was their "defensive" role of the early Irish immigrants and their ties to the Molly maguires that really interested me. The name, Tim Tosney, produced no results unfortunately. So the remark that the sword probably predating the "Virgil price casting" makes you think it may be from the 1860s? I just wanted something from the 1860 - 1870s range when my family came over from Ireland. It really is a beautiful sword. Thanks a lot for your time and trouble.

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## T. Graham

Glen, I must disagree. In my opinion, the one piece cast cross-guard and lower grip band places it closer to 1890. This particular sword is not shown in the 1882 Ames Sword Co. Catalog. One Page 256 there are three AOH swords. The scabbards are similar, but none of the hilts are close. On page 56 of The American Fraternal Sword  there is a similar hilt with an eagle on the helmet.  It, like most of the other shown, is marked Svendsen. I have owned a couple of AOH swords and the earlier ones tend to be of cheaper quality.

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## Glen C.

Hi Tim

My last thoughts on this were

_So, maybe soon after Svendsen set up shop_

I would (quite often) defer to what your speculation may point to and I have considered the lack of the form appearing both iin the catalog and the page of AOH swords in the Hamilton, Marino and Kaplan book.  I also considered the fact that it is an appliqué cross on bone, which in turn might make it akin to the M.C.Lilley swords with wood grips and an appliqué cross.  However, it is exactly the one piece guard and the lack of it in other references that makes me ponder that it might predate the catalog.  One might also ponder why the others do make it into the current bible of fraternal swords if it were later than the examples shown in the book. Certainly, as a later model, they would be more common.  When you say _and the earlier ones tend to be of cheaper quality_, that is also almost exactly my point when I allude to the fancier castings and scabbards with fancy fretwork castings which were a later trait.   The barrel vs bell bone grips as well something I would generally lump in the earlier than later basket.  What do I know anyway though ?8^)~

Patrick,

I mention the years of operation in opening and could with some assurance say the sword was made sometime between 1866 and 1925.  In closing I do speculate it might be an earlier sword but I cannot be sure of that. Somewhere in the middle of my reply, I mention that if it has an owner's name on the blade, that might lead to finding a more exacting date.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think it was exactly where I had mentioned early Ames militia swords that prompted my own understandings of the prewar swords and the thread title later amended to accomodate later examples and now branching once further to fraternal use.  For those early Ames militia swords and exacting early fraternal examples of that Ames form, I am pretty confident of my observations.  For ACW, other manufacturers, later associations and fraternal swords; I am not so confident in my findings and observations. So, I am open to thoughts Tim has added and have often defered to his superior experience of them but will always be one to ask "but why?".

Somewhere in my file pile is a KKK or other sword quite like this one (of which I believe have seen only three models of (aside from this white bone type). Again an example not shown in references but encountered only through browsing (or maybe even in an email exchange but that is just another forgotten file at the moment).

So, not militia, yes AOH and of indeterminate age  :Smilie: 

Cheers

Hotspur; _Charles junior gets a lot of internet search hits and his obit reads as 1871-1959_

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## Glen C.

So, another to ponder of this ilk now realized.  I would agree though that the longer blade would be in the later basket.

This is probably the file I was considering and it is not KKK but S.W.M.  This grip a little more bell bottom as well, so you may be quite right Tim.  I have another oddball I was combining in thought that I will add in a separate post to this thread.

Cheers

Hotspur; _a couple with acronyms I am not sure of_

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## Glen C.

So yes, this one especially does look later with a really skinny long blade.

Thoughts on these two Tim?

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## T. Graham

> So, another to ponder of this ilk now realized.  I would agree though that the longer blade would be in the later basket.
> 
> This is probably the file I was considering and it is not KKK but S.W.M.  This grip a little more bell bottom as well, so you may be quite right Tim.  I have another oddball I was combining in thought that I will add in a separate post to this thread.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Hotspur; _a couple with acronyms I am not sure of_


According to page 202 of Hamilton, Marino & Kaplin; S.W.M. means 'Seven Wise Men and relates to Improved Order of Heptasophs. There is no sword shown like this. You may have the only so marked sword. This one could date 60's and 70's.

----------


## T. Graham

> So yes, this one especially does look later with a really skinny long blade.
> 
> Thoughts on these two Tim?


This one is 'Brotherhood of the Union'. Founded in 1850, gone by 1924. This is also from HM&K. 

Since swords with skull pommels are so cool; I am going to start a thread.

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## Patrick H

Tim,

Your estimate that the AOH sword is from the 1880's seems to hold water.  A subscription to ancestry.com shows an Irish citizen named Tim Tosney came to the United States in 1880 at age 22 and resided in New Hampshire.  Though I have not finished the research, it appears that he stood trial in Lancashire, England in 1879 for a charge that I have not found yet - maybe for a crime against the Crown???  If so, it would make sense that he would join the AOH upon seeking refuge in America.  Though I was aiming to get a sword closer to the 1860-1870's range (or earlier), Timmy's story could be an interesting one...

----------


## Glen C.

> According to page 202 of Hamilton, Marino & Kaplin; S.W.M. means 'Seven Wise Men and relates to Improved Order of Heptasophs. There is no sword shown like this. You may have the only so marked sword. This one could date 60's and 70's.


Ya, kind of what I was getting at re the AOH marked casting.  While the AOH sword being discussed does have the lobed crossguard, it does not have the trellis work we see on the late guards and the intitials cast, quite like the S.W.M. example. Combined with the appliqué cross on the grip, the manufacture of these two examples (the swm and aoh) imo might be contemporary to each other.

Cheers

Hotspur; _I do need to spend more time in the book but the fraternal swords a secondary pastime_

The beginning of the Improved Order of Heptasophs apparently 1878

editing to add a New York Times article from July 1869

----------


## Patrick H

My father-in-law was eyeing this one on ebay and hoping that this was either Civil War or pre-Civil War.  Does anyone have any thoughts?

Thanks

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## T. Graham

It is a lodge sword. Dates close to 1900.

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## Patrick H

Tim, 

Thanks again for helping me out with not only this sword, but also your insight about the aoh sword. I really appreciate your time and trouble.

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## Glen C.

A quite good example of an etched 1850 pattern.  Listed as unmarked, all the traits of the sword speak as an Ames.  



Cheers

Hotspur; _all I could save of this one was the photo.  Sold for someone else's song_

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## T. Graham

I got it of feeBay, Like I need more of them. I need to compare it with another that has a brass scabbard.

----------


## Glen C.

Way to go! I am glad it stayed in the extended circle of collectors online. I think it is a winner. 

The scabbard is much like mine, with the same toe.

http://i33.tinypic.com/1rosug.jpg {big pic)

I had really considered this one but the timing was just no good for me right now. I have yet to unpack and get set up again. My small flock of these will go out of the stert sooner than some others. Nothing new from me lately.

Cheers

Hotspur; _the blade etch is very much like the 1850s plates in Hamilton's Ames book_

----------


## T. Graham

As most all of you know, I am a bit obsessed by this very neglected branch of US swords. Of course, most of the post ACW swords have not been studied in detail. But, I will save that rant for another day.

This has to be one of the best bone handled US NCO's in existence. I shot in the shadow of my house and using the HP photo cropping and enhancing, got some good pictures. As you can see it was made by Ames.

----------


## Glen C.

I am glad to see more pictures of this one and particularly the visible Ames scrawl.  I was convinced before seeing that but nice for confirmation. The grips from Ames during the 1840s and 1850s were done quite nicely and bone or ivory examples, both done (generally) with some care. It has been pretty easy to spot the differences between the Ames and Horstmann grips on swords before the 1860s. My silver plated example also with a very nicely done bone grip. Somewhere in Ames lore must be a timeline of when the ivory was running out and then when the ivorine started appearing on the post war fraternal swords (ground ivory and binder stuff).

I really am glad that one landed in this circle. I had just shuffled my few again today in finally unpacking the last box of swords.

As this thread progressed, there really is no reason not to include the post war swords, as they were borne out of the early militia form.

Cheers

Hotspur; _there was another early shield langet one I filed and should post up the pictures for it once I remember which file it ended up in_

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## Glen C.

Still not finding what folder I downloaded an oddball shield type. I must have stuck it in an eagle folder by mistake. That one possibly an earlier Ames (going by the grip).

So let's review shields anyway! I know I postyed a Hostmann with an anchor etch some pages ago but don;t recall putting this one up after appearing on Ebay back last Christmas, It is a diamond shape blade.

Cheers

Hotspur; _that eaglehead example (some pages ago) of these hilts turns out to be a Horstmann_

----------


## Glen C.

Aha (dummy, use the completed auction list).  There were only two pictures. The grip may have been redone...but?

To me it seems later and of the smaller two piece casting of the guard but it is hard to gauge size at times. This looks like a shorter fatter blade as well, like the earlier forms. Blade just 21".

Cheers

Hotspur; _still trying different file number techniques but those two pictures first downloaded ended up in one abyss or another to surprise me some day. Ha, just surprised that they were right there all along and lost as just two files_

----------


## T. Graham

In my continuous effort to detail the variations and classify their age periods; I thought to examine a common detail on these four. All below have a scalloped quillons, but all are different in detail.  Look at the first two swords on the left both have a 4 3/4 wide cross guard and I would date them as ACW or earlier. The right ones are 4 3/8 inches wide and post ACW. I think this is a definite indication of age. The wider the earlier. I have not taken any of these swords apart to look for markings.
Look at the other photos;  the fine details of the cross guard and knights head are all different. The only makers that come to mind are Ames and Gaylord and after 1877 Lilley. I have added some pages from the 1882 Ames catalog. Model 627 is third from the left and 628 is the forth. 
A feature that is unique to these 'earlier' types is the brass band next to the cross guard is a separate piece. There pictures of other disassembled swords in this thread showing this feature. The later versions have this band and the cross guard as a one piece casting. Is there interest in these later types? I would date all swords with this as a one piece casting after 1890 to 1920. I think I have figured out the difference between an Ames and Lilley.

I will detail the left one with the wide arris blade below.

----------


## T. Graham

What really dates this as an immediate post ACW NCO is the fullered blade. The hand applied etching resist is high quality for this normally modestly  priced pattern. The hilt shows hints of silver. I have no doubt it was made by Ames. I have not taken it apart.

----------


## Glen C.

Interesting details and I guess there really is no reason to segregate the old from the new (in the interest of dating).

One thing though comes to mind is the guard detail I have always considered post war.


With the ferrule/band/collar continuing until the turn of the century, that alone is not so much a lead for pre ACW and even the scalloped guards, something we need hard data on as far as catalogs or pictures. I note also in the highlighted example in this post that it seems to be of the more knightly grille vs Roman centurion routine. IIRC from the Hamilton book, that is coming in right around the ACW period.  The ubiquitous guard detail though I had always considered post war. The etched blade on that one looks more Horstmann than Ames, fer sure.

Cheers

Hotspur; _toss blade length and width into the formula as well_

----------


## T. Graham

With the ferrule/band/collar continuing until the turn of the century, that alone is not so much a lead for pre ACW and even the scalloped guards, something we need hard data on as far as catalogs or pictures. I note also in the highlighted example in this post that it seems to be of the more knightly grille vs Roman centurion routine. IIRC from the Hamilton book, that is coming in right around the ACW period.  The ubiquitous guard detail though I had always considered post war. The etched blade on that one looks more Horstmann than Ames, fer sure.

Cheers

Hotspur; _toss blade length and width into the formula as well_[/QUOTE]

Isn't this obsessive attention to these details fun? I was at the Mansfield, Ohio where I saw an Ames marked NCO with the wider/earlier version of this type of hilt documented to a CSA Virginia Regiment. It was out of my price range.

----------


## T. Graham

Here is a group of late swords with a one piece lower grip band and cross guard casting.
1. Is marked M.C Lilley and has Masonic symbols and an ovoid section blade. I thought I went into detail about it on this thread, but it must be on another. This could be an actual 'Tyler's' sword.
2. Is an unmarked Lilley with an ovoid blade. As you can see the castings and the helmets are the same as no. 1.
3 & 4 are both Ames. 3 is general purpose and 4 is a cadet. I re-wrapped the grip on 3. The grip on no.4 is a black painted brass casing with an added wire twist. I think the pommel and top band are separate pieces. I may refurbish and see if anything is on the tang. Both have an arras section blades.
5. Is marked Henderson Ames Co. and should date 1893-1923. Notice the difference in the lower band contour.
6. Pettibone Mfg. Co. is etched or the ricasso and according to Bezdek should date before 1900.
Another detail that gives away a late sword is the blade grinding method. Earlier arras blades are ground perpendicular, but the later ones are ground parallel with the wheel, thus creating the large radii ricasso. 

Often described as 1840s to 1880s officer and NCO swords; my studies indicate that none of these 'cheap' swords dates before 1890 and some could date to the 1920's. The illustrations in the Ames catalog do not show the difference between the earlier and later versions.

----------


## Rob E. Ozias

Gents.  I have one of these ubiquitous swords, totally unmarked.  Is it possible to tell from the photos who the manufacturer likely is?

----------


## T. Graham

> Gents.  I have one of these ubiquitous swords, totally unmarked.  Is it possible to tell from the photos who the manufacturer likely is?


Look at swords 1 & 2 above. It's a Lilley.

----------


## T. Graham

This is an unusual variation, (But , since there is no standard, they are all Variations.) with an arris or diamond sectioned blade. It is unmarked, but I will attribute to Ames. The fifth photo seems to have the same hilt, but with a fish skin grip and a twist and an etched ovoid blade.

----------


## Glen C.

Good to see. There is another of these guards on the bay right now.  I am not sure I would attribute the first to Ames but the pommel and guard might be. The use of a ferrule under the pommel on that one quite unAmes like and the ferrule at the guard shorter than the Ames swords I am familiar with. 

The grip also not what we see from the 1840-1850 swords but maybe a shortcut in the 1860s. Why then though would Ames do that with bushels of grips and by the 1860s less hand carving/reeding.  What I am seeing of the 1850> swords is the real difference between Horstmann grips and Ames grips, with these less worked possibly cutlered by someone else. 

Cheers

Hotspur; _not so much a why or what but a whom was the cutler_

----------


## T. Graham

This selection of swords are all of a generic type. I do not think that any of them date before 1890 and could date as late as WWI.
 All six swords have the cross guard and bottom grip ring as a one piece casting.
No 1 is a Lilley made 'Tyler' type and has been discussed further up this thread. Nos. 3 & 4 were made for military schools and the rest could be be for anything.
3,4 & 6 have parallel ground blades; which is a cheaper grinding method found on cheaper swords. The others have ovoid ground blades.
 A high quality arris blade will be hollow ground where the grinding wheel is perpendicular to the blade.

Moderator please delete this. I have already discussed it.

----------


## T. Graham

Yet another version. This bone grip NCO has a single edged, fullered blade of the M1840 NCO type. The hilt was a bit loose, so I took it apart to look for the 'secrets'. The Weyersburg knights head and the Horstmann marks were a delightful surprise. However the cross-guard seems to be an Ames type; but Horstmann may have bought it from them.

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## T. Graham

This version has the shield cross guard but with a brass twist grip. The blade is etched with foliage, eagle and stands of arms. The scabbard is leather covered brass with a really neat suspension mount. The fullered blade(from Ames?) has been shortened. It dates about ACW.

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## Glen C.

Lost in the ozone (literally) for a few days due to a lightning strike on Labor Day.

A good look at the blade etchings would determine whether it is an Ames blade of the ACW period. The pommel's shoulder is not quite what we see on a lot of them but then again, variety is endless. I can't quite make out whether it is a single or double edge but it does look like the nco or musician blade type.

I have a couple of oddballs to add to this list. One likely a Roby with an etched blade which I avoided because of less than clear buyer communication and the other I did grab. let me see if I hid away the auction pictures.
Here is the short Roby type brass nco example with an etched blade (not a helmet head).

Cheers

Hotspur; _crazy enough week anyway once I had the net back again_

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## Glen C.

This is that rather odd form of these helmets and I cannot place it in the books I have.  Short blade, ovoid. The scabbard does resemble the Ames examples....but.

I do not believe the knot/portepee was original to the sword.

This one really does conclude my own search and in hand curiosity. A couple I do have are probably going for table fodder in a few weeks.

Cheers

Hotspur; _More etched examples are bound to turn up and it is nice to see the super frosty ones coming around._

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## T. Donoho

Glen--am I missing something?--cannot open your thumbnails that are supposed to be attached--Tom.

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## Glen C.

> Glen--am I missing something?--cannot open your thumbnails that are supposed to be attached--Tom.


I have noticed this in other threads from other posters as well. Maybe they will come back. I have given up trying to explain the occasional forum glitches.  If I feel froggy, maybe I will attach them all again or host them in a different manner.

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## T. Donoho

> I have noticed this in other threads from other posters as well. Maybe they will come back. I have given up trying to explain the occasional forum glitches.  If I feel froggy, maybe I will attach them all again or host them in a different manner.


Okay--no big deal--thanks for trying.

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## George Wheeler

Well...  just to add confusion to the matter, I can see Glen's thumbnails just fine.  I could also see them yesterday without a problem.  Perhaps a glitch on your end Tom?

Don't you just love computers?

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## T. Donoho

George,

I can see those posted by Graham, but not Glen's recent ones--I will try a different browser and check some computer stuff.

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## Glen C.

> Well...  just to add confusion to the matter, I can see Glen's thumbnails just fine.  I could also see them yesterday without a problem.  Perhaps a glitch on your end Tom?
> 
> Don't you just love computers?


Keep in mind that a moderator or administrator's view may differ from that of others. For instance, I cannot edit those threads, so I don't know if the attachments are there or not.   As mentioned, this is not the only series of attachments that day that seem to have vanished, I saw them when I posted them but do not see them now.  I seriously doubt that Tom's system and browser are the same as mine, which kind of points to a system fluke of the 6th (or thereabouts).  To be honest, not worth worrying about if some never see them.  The same in the composite sword thread and at least one other thread I had seen last Thursday.

In addendum, it appears now that attachments as late as yesterday are falling out of view after the 24hr curfew.  So. not just attachments of the 6th but an ongoing "anomaly".  Danged if I am going to plow through a list of browser and system possibilities that have not changed one whit on my end. Bad enough that I have to do that for another's site archaic security certificates so I can update information.

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## T. Donoho

We will just have to deal with it the best we can for now--of course, photos and attachments are very helpful and nice to have.  Hang in there, guys.  :Smilie:

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## T. Graham

This is another, but somewhat unique version of the bone gripped NCO. It is marked N.P.Ames, Springfield. At this time Ames was actually located in Cabotville MA and they owned a piece of property once called the Springfield Canal Co. I suspect Ames used the name Springfield for marketing purposes.
N.P.Ames died in 1847, so I will date this one to the mid 1840's. The blade is etched and I may be able to bring a little bit back. This is the oldest Ames marked version I have seen.

There are several feeBayers describing all the bone gripped, cuneiform swords as a "model 1840", and dating many of them as ACW. If you know any of these folks, please try to dissuade them because it throws the market values off and confuses the beginning collectors.

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## Glen C.

Glad to see this one in happy hands. The earliest form of these are at the head of the thread. Those short blades with the cross hatched grips vs the reeding.  The Peterson example, of course, with the egg pommel quite similar.  The clamshell and cross hatching, whether bowtie or the ball quillions are definitely of the earlier 1840s Mexican War era. The blade length going to 25" in the "standard" still wider profile 1850 pattern.

I am not sure how one might approach the corrosion aside from acids (the de-corroder stuff). I have had ok luck working with Noxon (oxalic acid) with green or blue kitchen scrubbies to soften and lift rust. The Picreator de-corroder stuff is touted as great but I would watch it carefully. Others write electrolysis is the way to go.

The Hamilton book speaks a bit about the Springfield/Cabotville markings. I am still unpacked from a week ago or I would pull that. There is a fun little article I had posted up some years ago that also goes to the Cabotville and then Chicopee addresses.
http://newenglandtravels.blogspot.co...civil-war.html

Do show an after, I am very interested in how you proceed with it.

Cheers

Hotspur; _still watching a few more but my eagles are calling me_

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## T. Graham

I dug out my copy of Hamilton's book; it was just over my head (duh) and there it is on page 75. It is always nice to have a picture of an obscure sword that you posses in a book. Hamilton dates it 1840-45.
I was able to bring out more of the etching and it seems similar to the example on page 54.
There was gold paint on the brass parts and on the blade under the langets. To remove the paint under the langet I had to take it apart. To my chagrin the bone came away in two pieces. NOT MY FAULT. It had been broken during the original assembly because there was a residue of hide glue. I scrape of most of it and resorted to a clear epoxy. It went back together perfectly. I repaired the wood inserts and badah boom, it was done. I left most of the gold on paint the hilt as it does not hurt and blended in the the traces of gilt.
Picture no5 is a before shot.

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## Glen C.

Just a heads up for anyone following this thread. A good many photos I posted in this thread will disappear, as the host I have been using is shutting down that service in March 2014(kind of like the XP OS support is going away in April).

I will be posting a gallery of sorts in some following posts and will attach them here at SFI, rather than rely on another host.

So, if there is any interest in filling in the blanks of missing photos, just quote the post in question. I definitely have the files.

Attached here is another short bladed Ames with most of a scabbard and good Ames ivory.

Cheers

Hotspur; _this last, one I had found months ago and it finally came down to my offered price_

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## T. Graham

When this thread was started the sword in the first two pictures was thought to be an early Ames NCO sword. The bone and cuneiform hilt seemed to fit the pattern. The second sword has the same cross guard, but with a grip and band of the US M1860 type and a parallel ground, arris type, blade. 
I now think they are both theatrical swords. The last three photos show a Ames cup hilt rapier with the same grip and pommel. It also has a parallel ground, arris blade. It can only be theatrical.
Any comments? should I start a theatrical sword thread?

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## T. Donoho

T,
I wouldn't be so sure of that.  Ames produced swords for the military, militia, societies and theater--most having functioning blades.  With these "odd" swords, we can never be sure what was the intent--and that is the fun and fascination of it.

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## T. Graham

Here is a different version. Note that it has grip is without any contour and two bands. The cross guard is similar to the late types, but one side has the wheel design and other has a diamond. I hope someone has idea who made, so I do not have to take it apart to look for clues on the tang.
It does have a Pettibone feel about it.

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## Glen C.

Good detecting Tim. The one first posted in 2011 seems to have an nco or musician spadroon type blade but the cross looks spot on to the one you show.

Of my two spadroon bladed examples, the longer bladed one seems to be of the 
Horstmann hilt parts and the shorter Musician bladed one an Ames type of grip and guard casting.

The first one in that set, I was never sure of but theatrical makes some sense of it. Edit to add what I said about the ball end guard example in the first post of this thread "_Variety is the spice of discovery, really. I am also posting a couple of pictures of a very related example I really can't define as to who and when but it is possibly older than the other two above._"

Cheers

Hotspur; _the spadroon bladed examples in these pictures_

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## Glen C.

> Here is a different version. Note that it has grip is without any contour and two bands. The cross guard is similar to the late types, but one side has the wheel design and other has a diamond. I hope someone has idea who made, so I do not have to take it apart to look for clues on the tang.
> It does have a Pettibone feel about it.


Don't know but I picked up one of those with a very short blade. Let me see if I can find the files.

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## Glen C.

The sword closet is buried right now and I have not gotten around to pulling it apart, as it is threaded.  More dagger length, likely a military association of some sort but unmarked on the blade apparent or any specific motif.

Cheers

Hotspur; _complete with scabbard and an unidentified knot that had probably been added at some point_

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## Glen C.

See now, where are the attachments?

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/att...1&d=1390179959
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/att...1&d=1390179959
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/att...1&d=1390179985
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/att...1&d=1390179959
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/att...1&d=1390179959
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/att...1&d=1390179959

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## Glen C.

Bogusness  :Smilie:

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## T. Graham

Here are some cadet carriers of bone grip "NCO" swords and rather strange, political/social fellow.

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## T. Donoho

Graham,
What dates do you make for these photos?  That would help put the swords into context.
Thanks.

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## T. Graham

> Graham,
> What dates do you make for these photos?  That would help put the swords into context.
> Thanks.


Based on the uniforms and insignia; I would estimate 1870 to 1900. Military school uniforms did not really change until West Point went with the 'dress gray' version of the M1895 officers dress uniform.
If the school can be identified it will help with dating, but there were over 300 military schools in the US and many private and public schools had military programs. The two blue uniform cadets have not been IDed yet. I have added photos of VMI cadets with bone grip swords that I think are 1870-80's, but could be earlier.
There is a cadet sword thread, that may be of interest.

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## T. Donoho

Thanks!

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## T. Graham

Recently I pick up these cuties from feeBay and am presenting them to you with photos more detailed than when I bought them. After close examination, this pair have some interesting features. But before I go into ad nauseam detail, I though my fellow forum members may want to jump in with an off the cuff opinion.

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## Glen C.

I am glad you scooped those and that we didn't end up bidding against each other. The handles make me think they were assembled pretty late, so to say but still very interesting blade etchings. I was already out of budget before spring.

I look forward to further analysis.

Cheers

Hotspur; _kicking myse;f over missing the better eagle pommel deal_

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## T. Donoho

Interesting and very nice.  Enjoy!

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## T. Graham

> Recently I pick up these cuties from feeBay and am presenting them to you with photos more detailed than when I bought them. After close examination, this pair have some interesting features. But before I go into ad nauseam detail, I though my fellow forum members may want to jump in with an off the cuff opinion.


These two NCO swords are another example of M.C. Lilley/ Lilley-Ames taking old (in this case pre ACW militia officer) Horstmann blades and using them for something very different. I would date them as1920-30's assemblies. They may have been made for Horstmann. When closely examined you will see that they were assembled by two different workers. The scabbards should have had a leather cover and you can see clearance space between the brass mountings and the silver painted steel. They look horrible.
I should start a threat about M.C. Lilley/Lilley-Ames re-purposing surplus Horstmann blades.

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## Glen C.

This one was kind of exciting to see, as it is only the third one I have seen and two of those in books.  A Portsmouth Artillery etched blade as shown as sword 42 in Peterson's bible and another in Hamilton's Ames book. The Peterson example marked _26_ and the Hamilton example marked _12_. It went for a song, all in all. Did you get it Tim?

attached pictures of #_23_

http://www.ebay.com/itm/161302190413?

Cheers

Hotspur; _I could only watch_

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## T. Graham

I tried. But, I continue life knowing another will come along.

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## B Robar

I stumbled upon this forum while trying to identify a sword I picked up recently from an estate.  It is marked J.H. Lambert & Son and the blade is roughly 28" in length.  I have included a few photographs.  Thank you kindly.

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## Glen C.

> I stumbled upon this forum while trying to identify a sword I picked up recently from an estate.  It is marked J.H. Lambert & Son and the blade is roughly 28" in length.  I have included a few photographs.  Thank you kindly.



Welcome aboard

Going by the current fraternal sword bible, J.H. Lambert & Son operated in Philadelphia between 1883 and 1897. The elder Lambert operated earlier than that but the sword shown is of the fraternal or military associations type.  These generic unadorned examples sometimes bought in batches from a given organization. I see no acronym added to the sword decoration that might better identify the group for which it was intended.  The eagle atop the helmet pommel is sometimes regarded as the crapping eagle and can be found in the Ames Manufacturing biography and old catalogs. The knights Pythias and several others used similar swords with either a lion or eagle atop the helmet.  An easy way to distinguish the later swords is the blade shape, both cross section and width. Usually, the narrower the blade the later the sword. A good many slim bladed swords of the US had a flattened diamond cross section, as you see with your sword and that shape generally accepted as starting in the 1870s.

Cheers

Hotspur; _T Graham has a good grasp on how early one would see this shape of guard. IIRC Lambert sr was retailing as early as the 1860s as a wartime supplier of goods_

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## Christopher Ron Covington

Hello Glen et al., 

It is funny there is a new post in this topic because I was just reading through it over the weekend. There is a lot of interesting information posted here but it is a bit overwhelming. I don't have a lot of interest in fraternal swords but I do find the earlier militia swords to be interesting. As you've stated the older swords tend to have a broader blade while newer swords are more narrow. Can you suggest an easy way to tell the difference between fraternal swords and militia swords? It seems like the shell guard for the militia swords has the stars and stripes on it while the fraternal swords that looked nearly identical have a plain shell and maybe fraternal symbolism of some sort. Also it seems like the etching on the blade wil have either military decoration or fraternal decoration based on the intended end user/customer. And of course there were some swords that served both purposes. Does this sound accurate? 

Thanks for all the hard work, effort and research you've done for these often neglected swords.
Chris

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## Glen C.

Hi Chris

I had originally been looking primarily at just the Ames swords of the 1840s and 1850s. The thread header was changed to be more encompassing of all the roman and knightly pommel swords, not necessarily fraternal. The society swords were born out of that initial form.  There were a lot of plain swords with no decoration, such as this last one discussed that might have been used ib local militias but by that time, we are more regarding it as a local national guard with serious weapons. The swords of this type after the ACW really not serious weapons. Even those 1840s swords more a badge of rank for militia ncos.  So, really no way to spot a difference of the plain swords between fraternal or military association groups after the ACW because they are really one and the same.

T Graham can really fill in a lot of the blanks for the later swords.  The Marino, Kaplan and Hamilton fraternal book runs about $45 and is very good for looking at the post ACW makers and retailers, as well as the extensive pages of photo examples. It is prefaced therein that as complete as that volume might be, there were many dozen other groups not covered in the Marino an Kaplan collections.

Cheers

Hotspur; _I had mostly limited my own acquisitions to pre ACW examples_

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## B Robar

Thank you for the information.  I appreciate you taking the time.

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## Glen C.

Revisiting this thread with a couple of more examples.

First an etched Ames that recently sold.  Hard to say what the blade will look like under the scabbard throat but it looks like an easy removal.  The seller probably went "oops" and left it alone.

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## Glen C.

This one unknown to me. A flattened diamond profile blade of about 22" length.

I haven't added any lately bu I have harvested a few more pictures

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## T. Graham

> Hello Glen et al., 
> 
> It is funny there is a new post in this topic because I was just reading through it over the weekend. There is a lot of interesting information posted here but it is a bit overwhelming. I don't have a lot of interest in fraternal swords but I do find the earlier militia swords to be interesting. As you've stated the older swords tend to have a broader blade while newer swords are more narrow. Can you suggest an easy way to tell the difference between fraternal swords and militia swords? It seems like the shell guard for the militia swords has the stars and stripes on it while the fraternal swords that looked nearly identical have a plain shell and maybe fraternal symbolism of some sort. Also it seems like the etching on the blade wil have either military decoration or fraternal decoration based on the intended end user/customer. And of course there were some swords that served both purposes. Does this sound accurate? 
> 
> Thanks for all the hard work, effort and research you've done for these often neglected swords.
> Chris


A "must have" book is The American Fraternal Sword ISBN: 1-931464-38-3. The only problem is that the retailers are identified as the maker. Most of the swords have clues to who made it, but that is for anther thread.

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## T. Graham

> This one unknown to me. A flattened diamond profile blade of about 22" length.
> 
> I haven't added any lately bu I have harvested a few more pictures


The cross guard appears to be 4 3/4 inches if so, I would call it Ames ACW period.

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## T. Graham

This is an interesting sword that explains some strange characteristics on the 1870s period Ames NCO, cadet or general purpose bone grip swords. It has a pre ACW, Horstmann national shield hilt but mounted with an Ames post ACW fullered blade. This hilt design was later slightly shrunk for the no. 625 in the Ames catalog. An example of which is on page 6 of this thread along with a page from the catalog.
This sword was disassembled in the forlorn hope that there was exciting information on the tang or ricasso; but only the very off center tang came to light.
The blade with its off center fuller is etched with a pre ACW pattern. This fuller seems to be in line with the off center tang. I suspect that Ames had a considerable number of M1840 musician and NCO blank blades left over and an edge was ground the blade back; resulting in an off center effect. I doubt this was done to finished blades.
The eagle etch on the blade is in the style of 1840's Ames swords and was likely done by the same hand.

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## Glen C.

Interesting to see one ground so.  My musician length blade of this type appears to be all Ames parts, where the longer nco length blade seems to be all Horstmann parts.  Neither are ground, as your example shows.  Neither of mine are etched but were possibly just use of surplus blades.  Pictures of those two post #164 of the previous page.

I don't know if it is our fault for steering the market a bit but the real bargains seem to be disappearing.  I did see one of yours finally sold, which kind of sets street prices onward and upward.  My last associated buy was a few years ago and I had to wait on that short blade Ames with scabbard for more than a year before the price came down  (sword pics post #160).  A couple of mine came from misc. Ebay sections and fraternal sword sections.

Cheers

Hotspur; _I still keep an eye out for a bargain_

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## T. Graham

Picked up this cutie on our favorite internet auction site. 
Note the interesting details:  
1. The cross guard is 4 3/4 inches wide, scalloped ends, but lacks a "winged wheel". For it's width it is thinner than the ACW types.
2. The transfer blade etching is considerable finer than anything done domestically; so I think the blade was imparted from France and it is 26 inches long. I have seen this quality etching on other French swords made for export.
3. The lower grip band has a distinctive rolled on decoration.
4. There is considerable gold wash remaining.

My conclusion is that this is a custom made cadet sword, probably made by Ames in the 1880's. There is nothing quite like it in the Ames catalog. The no. 628 is kind of similar. (http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...-NCO-Patterns/ page6 entry #136) But as my wife often reminds me, I maybe wrong.

I compared it with an Ames no. 627 which has a 4 3/8 wide to the sword above that has a 4 3/4 wide cross guard similar to the ACW NCO swords. It could date to the 1870's.

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## T. Graham

As Crocodile Dundee might say: "You call that an bone grip NCO sword? Now this is an NCO sword".
I have no idea who made it. The lower right photo shows it in its broken grip state. I disassembled it to repair and in hope that there was an identifying  feature on the tang. There was nothing. I redid the top wood support and fixed the thin brass of the knights head.
The grip is 5 1/16 wide and seems to be a one piece casting. The blade is 26 1/2 inches long and 1 inch wide at the langets.
Note the lack of a lower grip band, the bone is fitted into the cross guard and the tang is centered with a wood insert.
The Militia Sargent is holding an M1842 musket with bayonet attached, carrying this type of sword and a bayonet scabbard. I do not think these are photographer's props. If I only had the original picture.
I will look to see if I have another with the same knights head. I look and out of about 50 swords; I was unable to find one like it. It is really big.

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## Glen C.

Two nice additions.  On the first pretty etched one, I would question either French or Ames, as there is no association between them I am aware of.  The reeding of the grip is more precise and narrow than the early Ames stuff but to be honest, I know little of the later stuff except my musician bladed example.  Could the etch be German?  Could it be an effort from an independent furbisher?

The Dundee example seems to use the pommel we see on the more upscale militia officer swords and the big bow tie more what we would see on the English Freemasons swords.  There had been a sword on Ebay for years listed to a Prince of Wales association with a plain bow tie and listed as 18th century.  That had a plum shaped pommel.  This one you show and the portrait seem to have huge grips, and you show that well.

Cheers

Hotspur; _just when you think you've seen them all_

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## T. Graham

[
The Dundee example seems to use the pommel we see on the more upscale militia officer swords and the big bow tie more what we would see on the English Freemasons swords.  There had been a sword on Ebay for years listed to a Prince of Wales association with a plain bow tie and listed as 18th century.  That had a plum shaped pommel.  This one you show and the portrait seem to have huge grips, and you show that well.

Cheers

Hotspur; _just when you think you've seen them all_ [/QUOTE]

There was nothing like it in the The American Fraternal Sword, but that does not that there is no fraternal connection.

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## Glen C.

It was these English swords I was thinking of
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/att...1&d=1403868640

I can't believe I didn't save the pictures of the one that had been listed for so long.

Your goliath grip sized sword quite interesting.

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## T. Graham

Another here: http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...rd-Springfield

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## Glen C.

Recently adopted, a pre Mexican War Ames.  Etched blade and a brass scabbard.  The older guard casting very reminiscent of the Portsmouth Artillery example above. With an NP Ames Springfield address, this one is pretty early.  The 25" etched blade sports a crossed sword and quiver under a spread eagle with E Pluribus Unum, with the obverse etched with a tall liberty pole with flags. Some minor dents and a crack in the brass scabbard but it is all there.  The pommel is 180 degrees backwards in these dealer pictures.  I'll take some more pictures in time.









Like so many best offers, it doesn't hurt to take a chance on ebay.  This was definitely a case where my expectations have been exceeded.  This is now another terrific addition to my collection of mostly Ames examples.  A second with a metal scabbard and a third with the scallop guard langet.  Merry Christmas to me, I can't see I'll afford something else before then.

Cheers

GC

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## Glen C.

> Here is the Justice NCO sword recently on eBay. Anyone care to speculate who made it.


Way back on page 2, Tim shows a sword marked to Justice of Philadelphia.  I had been watching a sibling for some time and eventually adopted it.  This one not marked to Justice but it does show markings indicating the scabbard belonged to the sword.  

The scabbard is missing its black leather and that could be a project in time.  Since a restoration would begin with cleaning off the steel, I may go that far for a start.

So, I'm still not sure who produced these but I've only seen three or four so far.  The casting is a bit off center and likely always so.  The peen is undisturbed and the assembly rock solid.  I have Pettibone marked swords with the spiral grips, so I have to assume German manufacture.  The truth may lay in the leather covered steel scabbards (which again seems to point to import).

Another for the pile of these It just looked so lonely  :Wink:   The post quoted will show Tim's example and a couple of more attached below.  The Arizona pictured sword also with a mishappen and misaligned casting.  It appears to be a trait of these.  

Cheers
GC

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## Glen C.

Smack dab in the middle of routine searches, ebay turned up another old Ames I felt the need to pursue






I really need to reunite the group but this thread alone has become a good archive of examples.  Labeled as colonial, perhaps that's why it was falling through the cracks.  I still can't get over how polished these blades were.  Broad lenticular short blades polished to mirror bright.  You can see the fellow taking the picture reflected on the blade.  Even the rustier examples I have acquired seem to revive, shedding surface rust pretty easily.

Cheers
GC

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## T. Graham

With my usual my lack of humility, I believe the Justice hilted sword shown above with the Ames 1880's fullered blade has been assembled to fool. There is a sword on FeeBay now with this style of Justice hilt.

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## Glen C.

Revisiting these Tim.

I must have missed the listing you mention.  The old Ames swords had all but dried up and then we see a few turn up.  This one, for instance



I had a few out to an event last month with a some other swords.



It's good to see you are still active and there will never be enough, right?

Cheers
GC

----------


## Glen C.

An addition of example to these swords we watch.  Whilst in a browsing mode today, I came across a bit of an answer in seeing this example marked to Horstmann, and stamped Germany.



Throughout the pages of this thread, we have regarded timelines and this form determined to be at least back to the 1860s and (to me) it reinforces how many were entirely made in Germany throughout the decades.

I had to add this as finding it today on Gunderson's pages.
http://www.gundersonmilitaria.com/swordad.html

Another we list as a type with early dates marked to Clauberg.


J&J has fresh stuff as well.

I am not planning on the Manville event this year.

Cheers
GC

----------

