# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  Sword stuck in leather scabbard

## Matthew Honey

Hi there, this is my first time posting in this forum (or any forum for that matter). Please forgive me if I have done this incorrectly...

I purchased an 1822 pattern infantry sergeants sword at auction the other day and it refuses to budge from the scabbard. The sword sticks out of the scabbard about 2 inches (it was like that when I purchased it) and will neither pull free of the scabbard nor go down into it. The locket is also no longer attached and slides freely up and down. Any ideas about how to extract the sword without damaging the scabbard? 

I'm suspecting that the leather has shrunk. Would the Pecard's Antique Leather dressing (which I read about in the conservation section) revitalize the leather, so to speak?

I also have the Conservator at the museum I volunteer at looking into it, but I would love to hear if anyone has any ideas...

Thanks,

Matt

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## Simon R.

> Would the Pecard's Antique Leather dressing (which I read about in the conservation section) revitalize the leather, so to speak?
> 
> I also have the Conservator at the museum I volunteer at looking into it, but I would love to hear if anyone has any ideas...
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Matt


Matthew,

Welcome to the forum.  I would talk to the conservator; you are lucky to have such access.  

Pecards is petroleum based, and while being great on newer leather, is no longer considered by some experts good for the antique leather (given the different way antique leather was cured/made).  Allegedly, the petroleum base in the formula actually degrades the antique leather over time as well as the stitching.  An inert museum wax appears to be favored in its place (by some).

All opinion of course.

Best 
Simon

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## Christopher Treichel

I would be interested in hearing what the conservator has to say.  I have always been told to use animal products to restore leather.  I make my own leather restorer by mixing bear oil or suet with beeswax for best results. Petroleum products cause leather to crack and dry out.

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## Glen C.

FWIW, Pecards has an antique formula that I use on everything. It literally saved a 215 yr old scabbard from cracking and turning into a pile of dust. It has not rotted the stitching, indeed has nourished and stabilized that. What is the difference between that and the regular? I dunno but the company touts it being made to reflect tanning and treatment of yore.

Whatever grease one might use for replenishment, it is unlikely to break the bond twixt metal and leather.

Simon, have you ever come across and read msds sheets for various products? IIRC, Pecards is fairly elusive about components. Mink oil, lanolin and neetsfoot, all popular "bests" with as many challenging as advocating  :Smilie: 

There is an old thread here somewhere I'll try to dig up. A fancy sword in the same situation.  Me? It looks like it was stuck replacing the sword to the scabbard and if mine, I would probably patiently wiggle it a bit up and down , massaging the scabbard and flexing the blade just a little bit. One should hear the bond breaking while flexing. Little bits, not all at once.


Cheers

Hotspur, _by all means, see what the conservator has to say_

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## Eric Fairbanks

When restoring old saddles I use neatsfoot oil. It is made from animal fats. To preserve leather I render bear fat or beef tallow (1/2 gallon) and mix with beeswax (3x1x1inch plug) mink oil (1 can), ivory soap(1/3 rd bar) and neatsfoot oil (1 gallon). If I use the saddle in the mountains I add 1/4 cup kerosene. The kerosene keeps little critters from chewing saddles for salt content in mountains. Pure neatsfoot oil will bring old leather back to life. I have not used it on a scabbard only on saddles, billets, harnesses and rifle scabbards. Eric

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## JOHN MAT

I'd try soaking it in warm *deionized* water until soft and gently try to wriggle, twist and pull the blade while holding the scabbard at the throat.  Assuming it comes free (actually leather shrinkage and blade rust are probably the culprits) I'd carefully clean the blade, wrap in thin plastic, re-insert into the damp/pliable scabbard and let the leather dry with the blade in place.  This should re-size the scabbard to fit the blade cross section.  When the leather is completely dry, then, apply Peccard's or Black Rock.  Good luck!

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## Gene Wilkinson

> When restoring old saddles I use neatsfoot oil. It is made from animal fats. To preserve leather I render bear fat or beef tallow (1/2 gallon) and mix with beeswax (3x1x1inch plug) mink oil (1 can), ivory soap(1/3 rd bar) and neatsfoot oil (1 gallon). If I use the saddle in the mountains I add 1/4 cup kerosene. The kerosene keeps little critters from chewing saddles for salt content in mountains. Pure neatsfoot oil will bring old leather back to life. I have not used it on a scabbard only on saddles, billets, harnesses and rifle scabbards. Eric


OHHHH MY DAYS!
That's sounds truly awful! lol

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## Matt Easton

I would strongly advise against making the scabbard wet, as it will make the blade rust inside. The blade, in my eyes, is worth more than the scabbard. I had the same problem with a sword and I managed to get it free by undoing some of the stitching. Just undoing some of the stitching was enough to free the blade and once the blade is out you can soak the leather scabbard in dubbin or whatever takes your fancy.

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## Gene Wilkinson

My first thought was to remove the bottom mount from the scabbard and clamp the empty bottom section of the leather in a vice (between wooden or card  protectors) and pull the damn thing off!
Try and wriggle it a bit all the way down to break any areas where the oxidisation has fixed the two together....
But my main priority would also be the blade.

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## JOHN MAT

> The blade, in my eyes, is worth more than the scabbard.


Yep, that's true, however, a scabbard can add an easy 50% to the value of them together.  Just use the water method I described.  Don't worry about the blade getting rusty, it already is.

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## Javier Ramos

Acetone will make leather soft and increase volume until it evaporates in a few minutes. I do not think it will harm the blade. I have only used this with old leather boots, so a trial on a different sample would be advisable.

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## Eric Fairbanks

Awful I guess if you try to eat it. I have a half dozen saddles from the 19th century including one Confederate officer saddle. Some were in fair shape and some unusable.  All are clean flexible and serviceable saddles now. I don't guess there is a need for kerosene for sword scabbards as they will always be inside and not in mountains or tac shed, but as far as everything else leather is leather. I have used it on cow, goat, pig and horse hide.There is a good chance the rust is minimal under the leather except in spots where air got through. Rust is just fire and requires oxygen,  heat and fuel. Bluing is just a controlled burn with the fire put out. 


> OHHHH MY DAYS!
> That's sounds truly awful! lol

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## Matthew Honey

Thanks for all the suggestions!

I have been wiggling the blade and scabbard from the start, however they seem to be one. I might as well be pulling a sword from the stone! Gently bending the blade to try and loosen I have also been doing - perhaps I need to be patient and keep working at it.

The conservator had a couple of ideas, but she wanted to get some second opinions from her colleagues before trying anything. I am currently waiting for her email.

While the top of the blade is rather rusted, when I slide the locket up, I can see through some of the stitching and the blade looks shiny. I realize however, it doesn't mean the whole blade is shiny, but I am cautiously hopeful. :Smilie: 

I'll keep you posted as to how it turns out and which method finally frees the sword.

Thanks again for all the responses!

Matt

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## Matt Easton

> Yep, that's true, however, a scabbard can add an easy 50% to the value of them together.  Just use the water method I described.  Don't worry about the blade getting rusty, it already is.


Sorry, but this is awful advice. You have no idea what condition the blade is inside - the sword I freed from the leather scabbard still had much of its original mirror polish remaining. Soaking the scabbard in water is idiotic.
Matt, do not listen to this!  :Big Grin:

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## Matt Easton

> While the top of the blade is rather rusted, when I slide the locket up, I can see through some of the stitching and the blade looks shiny. I realize however, it doesn't mean the whole blade is shiny, but I am cautiously hopeful.


Matt, my sword was exactly the same and it turned out that the shiny surface on the blade inside the scabbard did indeed remain mostly. I tried clamping and yanking, wiggling, all the things you have mentioned. Eventually the only thing that got it out was to cut some of the stitching - it didn't even take very much, just the portion where the blade that seems to be sticking to the blade most.
Matt

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## Matthew Honey

Thanks Matt. 

The leather under the locket does seem to narrow down, stretching and exposing the threads (which is where I can see a little bit of the blade).

Perhaps I'll give that I try once I have seen what the conservator comes back with.

Matt

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## T Phillipson

Is the sword scabbard purely leather, or does it have a wooden core?

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## Sancar Ozer

I'm really curious to see in what condition will the blade turn out to be once it's released from the scabbard. There is a good chance it still has at least some of the original polish. Be sure to post photos  :Wink:

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## Glen C.

Here is the old thread I was remembering. It took some inventive search terms via Google and took a day of thinking it through first to pull it up second try.  :Smilie: 
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...41-a-tight-fit

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## Matthew Honey

As far as I can tell, the scabbard is purely leather.

Sancar - I will definitely post pictures as soon as the blade is free. 

I had a new thought this evening, I have placed some small wood shims down the scabbard throat where it seems most constricted, perhaps that will stretch the leather just enough.

Glen - thanks for showing me that post - a very interesting and informative read with a cliff hanger at the
end. It would have been nice to see what the sword looked like once restored.

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## Gene Wilkinson

> Awful I guess if you try to eat it. I have a half dozen saddles from the 19th century including one Confederate officer saddle. Some were in fair shape and some unusable.  All are clean flexible and serviceable saddles now. I don't guess there is a need for kerosene for sword scabbards as they will always be inside and not in mountains or tac shed, but as far as everything else leather is leather. I have used it on cow, goat, pig and horse hide.There is a good chance the rust is minimal under the leather except in spots where air got through. Rust is just fire and requires oxygen,  heat and fuel. Bluing is just a controlled burn with the fire put out.


Hi Eric,

I'm not doubting it's effectivness............ But the reciepe and the contents!!!!  :EEK!: 

It sounds like something they'd make on one of those 'worst jobs in history' type tv shows.

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## Gene Wilkinson

> Yep, that's true, however, a scabbard can add an easy 50% to the value of them together.  Just use the water method I described.  Don't worry about the blade getting rusty, it already is.


There are some problems with making the leather wet.
If the OP tries this and still can't get the scabbard off he's potentially going to be forced to take extreme measures before the moisture makes the rust problem even worse.
Also the wet leather will take an age to completely dry out even if it does come off of the blade.
The scabbrd would have been shaped over a former, not an actual blade, so drying onto the blade may result in shrinkage which will cause the scabbard to be too tight.

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## John Sheard

In my limited experience soaking old leather should definitely not be attempted. New leather is fine and soaking is used in the trade. My attempt was on an old scabbard where the leather had slightly shrunk lengthwise, exposing about 3mm of the metal throat. After 15 minutes the leather had become completely pliable but had further shrunk to now expose 10mm. Attempting to work it back caused the old leather to disintegrate and the scabbard was ruined - should have left well alone! Since the blade is partially exposed, make a metal template (width just less than the blade) from thin sheet steel and try to gently work it down between blade and scabbard to break the bond (if that is really the problem). If the scabbard has shrunk onto the blade then I suspect opening the stitching will be necessary. Keep wiggling.

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## Eric Fairbanks

I guess you may be right Mr. Wilkinson, never thought of it like that. I grew up where we scalded our on hogs, made grits and our own soap. None are best jobs but Dad never ask if we liked building fence or picking cotton, it was just what you did. I can see where all could be seen as distasteful. I will change my suggestion to soak it in neatsfoot oil and forget the other stuff. It will revive the leather and swell it a bit. I bought an eaglehead not to long ago and it is stuck in the scabbard. I have not had time to work on it but should be home in a week or so. I will put neatsfoot oil on it Honey and take photos for you and Mr. Wilkinson. Just hold on Honey and I will put my money where my mouth is. I will post as it goes. Then you can make up your mind on how to proceed with yours. Kids: Do not try this at home without adult supervision. It is a pretty nice eagle and scabbard so it should be fun. 


> Hi Eric,
> 
> I'm not doubting it's effectivness............ But the reciepe and the contents!!!! 
> 
> It sounds like something they'd make on one of those 'worst jobs in history' type tv shows.

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## gordon byrne

Hi all,

I have not had experience with a sword scabbard however, I can relate an experience I had with an old family piece which was a glass spirits flask with a slip-on leather cover. The main problem was that the leather was so dry, it had shrunk onto the body of the flask and created such force (a vice like grip) that in doing so, it was impossible to pull the cover off the flask.

Now we must bear in mind that there could not be any rust (as glass doesn't rust), so shrinkage was the main culprit, so much so that the stitching was tearing through the leather.

I applied a very liberal coating of leather dressing all over the leather cover, and left it for some days until the leather had absorbed all the dressing; the result being that the leather expanded to a point where it was quite simply pulled off the body of the flask, and the stitches tearing through the leather appeared to be less.

My suggestion would be that problems of this nature do not have a quick solution, and in the case of a sword, I would say that shrinkage of the scabbard onto the blade is very likely one of the main problems.

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## Glen C.

Scary  :EEK!: 

http://nautarch.tamu.edu/CRL/conserv...nual/File7.htm

Yummy

Bavon Leather Dressing 
 1 liter of stabilized 1:1:1 *trichloroethane* 
 1 gram Dowicide 1 
 50 grams anhydrous lanolin 
 20 grams Bavon ASAK-ABP

Cheers

Hotspur; _not to go too far with success stories but here is mine that was crumbly dry going to red dry rot. Pecards antique and their colored dressing_

Centered here



As sold to me

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## Matthew Honey

Very nice results. I'm going to have to get some - Amazon.com is the only place I can find it here in Canada.

At the moment the sword is still stuck in the scabbard, however, I have been rubbing it down with pure neatsfoot oil and inserting spacers to stretch the leather. Top half of scabbard now wiggles, just the bottom to go ... Hopefully not long now.

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## Dmitry Z~G

And the final result was...?

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## Dmitry Z~G

> I guess you may be right Mr. Wilkinson, never thought of it like that. I grew up where we scalded our on hogs, made grits and our own soap. None are best jobs but Dad never ask if we liked building fence or picking cotton, it was just what you did. I can see where all could be seen as distasteful. I will change my suggestion to soak it in neatsfoot oil and forget the other stuff. It will revive the leather and swell it a bit. I bought an eaglehead not to long ago and it is stuck in the scabbard. I have not had time to work on it but should be home in a week or so. I will put neatsfoot oil on it Honey and take photos for you and Mr. Wilkinson. Just hold on Honey and I will put my money where my mouth is. I will post as it goes. Then you can make up your mind on how to proceed with yours. Kids: Do not try this at home without adult supervision. It is a pretty nice eagle and scabbard so it should be fun.


So have you put your money where your mouth is yet? I've got a stuck one here also. Was thinking of dousing the scabbard in Pecard's Antique Leather Dressing, but would like to see others' results first.

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## Eric Fairbanks

Dmitry, I have but have not had a chance to complete clean up on sword. The neats foot oil did free all the preserved spaces on blade. The only places it would not free was rusty spots. I then took Matts advice and cut stitching in those areas. The blade for the most part is beautiful. I have it soaking in oil now to protect bluing and stop any rust advance. Every time I go home I scrape a little more off in those spots. I tried to soak blade on flat surface but neats foot oil is thick and I was in and out and could not keep it coated properly. I have since built 2 and 4 inch pvc tubes that stand in wooden rack that have various oils and cleaners in them and one for neats foot oil. The 2 inch works great as it stops the hilt from going in. The pvc is easily heated and bent to accommodate the curve of the blade. I will be home next week and post photos of my little Osborne on this thread. I do have some beginning photos on tablet I will post now. Neats foot oil will not harm bluing but it will not eat rust you will have to wipe it off and us a hydrate type to clean up rust. I am thrilled with what I have so far and with Matt's advice. After removing blade leather will be soaked with neats foot I raked off with a piece of cardboard what I could the hung it to drip. I then wrapped it in paper towels to get what was left. Next I give a rub down with Petards and waited a day or so then shoe polish. Photos to come. Eric

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## Dmitry Z~G

Eric, why are you soaking the blade in neatsfoot oil? 
There are products specifically fabricated for protection of metal surfaces from rust. BreakFree CLP the one I use.

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## Eric Fairbanks

I guess I should be more specific
1. Soak sword stuck in scabbard in neats foot oil to free from leather.
2. Cut stiching in spots rust prohibited removal
3. Remove blade and clean off excess neats foot oil
4. Drip and scrape excess neats foot from scabbard
5. Soak sword blade in hydrate oil ie: WD40, Remington gun oil, Mystery oil to soften rust spots
6. Wrap scabbard in paper towels to pull out overdose of neats foot oil
7. Pull out sword every once in a while and scrape rusty spots be careful not to scar unaffected areas.
8. Rub scabbard and buff with Petards or good saddle soap then polish with paste type shoe polish.
9. No hydrate oil or solvent of any type should ever touch leather
10. Neats foot will not harm nor help sword blade
I am not familiar with Breakfree clp but if it is for rust it should never touch leather. Any hydrate type product will work on rust to one degree or an other. Gasoline and diesel will cut rust but you should put your cigarette out. Never use rust removing products on blued blades. Bluing is a type of rust and will be removed. Metal Rescue is a great product but would be deadly for bluing. My Osborne has been soaking in WD 40 for some tim while I pick a rusty spots. It has not hurt bluing but is slowly cutting through rust. Its gona take a while. Eric

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## Eric Fairbanks

While not a complete success it does retain most of detail. I have decided to stop at this point as I do not wish to lose any detail in bluing or etching. I will have to keep an eye on it to make sure active rust is neutralized, but overall I am thrilled with what I have. The spadroon stuck in scabbard for many years could have been far worse. For someone digging and buying out of the bottom end this much blue and gold is a win and it is an Osborn after all. Eric

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## Matthew Honey

I came across this old thread I started and realized I neglected posting the eventual results.

In the end, patience was the key. I narrowed down where exactly (as best as I could guess), where the sword was stuck in the scabbard. It turned out to be a small patch of rust stuck to the leather right under the top of the chape.

First, I made a small incision where it was stitched right above the chape and applied the neatsfoot oil right to the area in hopes of loosening up the adhered leather. After sitting for awhile, I tried poking around through the incision with a baking tester (a small metal needle like item) in the end I was too aggressive and the needle bent, tearing the incision a little larger. 

Disgusted with myself, I applied more neats foot oil and wrapped a cloth around the area (the cloth already somewhat saturated with neatsfoot oil from wiping away the excess) and left it alone. Back and forth I would go to test it. 

The following summer it was particularly hot and humid. Once more for the 30th time probably, I braced the chape between my feet and slowly tried to pull upwards. This time something happened. The chape came off. At first alarmed, then I realized I could now wiggle the scabbard leather off and voila. 

The sword is now free. And so is the chape and the locket (though the locket was already detached when I purchased the sword, only held in place by the sword stuck in the scabbard). A small patch of rust near the tip was the culprit - I still have to finish cleaning the rust off, and I fear the brass guard may be slightly bent from myself and so many others pulling at it, but here is a picture of it.



You will see the culprit area right near the tip. Story concluded  :Smilie: 

Cheers,

Matt

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## John Hart

Thanks for the update, Matt - quite often in this kind of thread the original poster goes quiet and we never get to hear the end of the story!   :Smilie:   Regarding the blade, I've used car chrome cleaner to get rust off with good results - Autosol is the brand I've found in the UK.  It also gives a good polish to the non-rusted parts of the blade.

John

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## Matthew Honey

That’s excellent! Thanks John. I’ll pick some up and give it a try.

Matt

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