# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  Cutlass Photos and Discussion

## J.G. Hopkins

The elegant yet business-like Italian cutlass I saw recently at the Hartford Show made me think it might be fun to create a thread about cutlasses in general.  I propose that we discuss cutlasses from any country or time period, and that we post photos of cutlasses from our own collections.  Like the "Cult of the Small-Sword" or the "British Slot Hilt Photos and Discussion", this thread can be used for educational posts about cutlasses, to ask questions about cutlasses, or to share new acquisitions.

As a young collector I was not too focused in my collecting habits.  In general I was interested in British swords of the Georgian period, but I bought anything interesting that I could afford.  One such sword was my first and only cutlass; a US M1860 Naval Cutlass by Ames.  Although it is still outside of my collecting interests, it is still one of my favorite swords.  



I am unaware of period references to its use, if indeed it was used in period, but it seems a very practical sword.  My particular sword was probably never used as it is unsharpened and in very good condition.  I have heard that some M1860s sat in arms lockers through WWII, and mine could be an example of this.  The grip is either a replacement, or managed to survive better than most.  As with most US swords, this cutlass is based on a French design, I believe the M1833 (?) naval cutlass.  Other than the bits of miscellanea above, I know very little of this sword pattern (especially since I write this from work and do not have my copy of Peterson at hand  :Smilie:  ).  So please feel free to enlighten me!

----------


## Glen C.

I am tempted to jump right in and terrorize with some of my collected images but I look forward to learning something. For nstance, when Todd and I bogged down at the show cutlass, we left it while debating if it was as wide as the 1827 Russian monster sawback thingie Dmitry had shown up with at Manville in 2007.
http://usera.ImageCave.com/Hotspur/M...lle2007dmf.jpg

Also check out MDL and the US sword section for a quite interesting officer's cutlass.

I almost jumped on an Ames 1841 weeks before the show this month and maybe should have. They aren't getting any cheaper (and that one is priced right).

Cheers

Hotspur; _not really my thing but I do have some images and manuals saved up_

----------


## N White

I did not bring a camera to the arms show, but one thing I saw that I have been wanting for quite some time, but was sadly a few hundred dollars above my budget for the day is a British Cutlass Bayonet.  p1858 if I recall right.  Very nice looking weapons, and at first glance unless you see the mortise slot they almost look not like bayonets.  Not so beefy as some cutlasses, but still heavier than I would think wise to use as a bayonet.  I believe I saw a couple, so there's hope for next year at least!

----------


## WBranner

Here's the only one I have. Don't know much about it.

Blade - The slightly curved single fullered blade 	is marked with the makers name DEAKI' (DEAKIN).
Hilt    - All brass. 
Grip   - Reeded carved mahogany.
Condition  - There are edge nicks on the blade and splits in the grip.
Size   - Approximately Overall = 29 ¼, Blade = 24½

----------


## Paul G.

Nice sword.  cutlass/hangar early 19Th century?
typical early cutlass blade with a neat hilt. Ive only seen deakins with the big wider 1812ish style blades

----------


## Paul G.

Great idea for a detailed discussion thread. I've been a cutlass guy for a long time. A true close combat edged weapon that saw extensive use in all the wars and piracy  of the age of sail.
 Plain, relatively inexpensive to manufacture and made in countless variations they were truly tools of the trade.  The relatively small numbers that were manufactured and the harsh environment they served in, all make them a challenging and fascinating sword to study and collect.

In honor of Glen C.   Here are two examples of the USN Ames 1841 cutlass
The top cutlass is dated 1842 Cabotville.  The first year of production I believe. and it has an original early riveted scabbard. and rack mark on the guard.

The bottom one is dated 1845 Springfield  and is in almost un issued condition with unfortunately a full blade sharpening.      Keep those cutlasses coming!!   Paul G

----------


## Dave O'Connell

This is a Royal Navy cutlass I inherited from my late father, and gratefully identified by members of this forum as an 1886 pattern cutlass, dated to 1894 from the blade stamps.

----------


## WBranner

Here's a possible non regulation piece. It may have been refashioned as a cutlass. It's something I bought for parts that has a French ANXI light cavalry hilt  mounted to a heavy cutlass/briquet blade.

----------


## Alan Quinn

Interesting thread, here is my first offering:

French Boarding Cutlass Model An X

According to Petard this model was introduced in 1801 with a 75cm blade. The blade of the An X was shortened to "about 67 cm" at some point before 1804. The blade on this example is 67.5 cm.

It has a small naval acceptance stamp of an anchor and the poincon of  S.F Beaumaretz, who served as an inspector from September 1803 to June 1807.

The backstrap has the undated Klingenthal inscription of Couleaux Freres. The cravatte, which would originally have been made of red felt has been replaced by a leather one.

Alan

----------


## Paul G.

Nice cutlass Alan  A rare one with nice markings. Love the Old black paint over even older black paint?
  Paul

----------


## Guy C

Does this count? A Victorian Police/Prison Service short sword. c1880

----------


## Glen C.

Thanks Paul for those great pictures of 1841 examples. They goad me to revisit some articles online and prompt some more questions/thoughts to add to the list of considerations about this company. 

I was reminded how little I have studied these by running into another article by Dave Radcliffe while actually looking for something else he had penned about the Ames chronology. For those not familiar, Dave's musings are over on the Arms Collectors dot com page. One question that came to mind in seeing your pictures was the all leather scabbard and it was addressed in Dave's article *A VETERAN QUARTET 101 YEARS BEFORE THE MAST* 
_However, two types of black leather scabbards are known. One has a brass throat and tip like that of the foot artillery scabbard and the other is entirely leather with brass or copper rivets on the reverse side Both scabbards have studs on the obverse for attaching to a belt frog._ 

I think it was actually his artillery sword notes I went looking for today and instead answered what had been curiousity regarding the scabbards. Needless to say, the budget cutlass I had spotted sported neither a scabbard or wonderful condition your examples show.

Another name came up at Hartford that I had never thought to associate with Ames research, Mike Silvey. A name I knew from other circles but had never thought a reference for all things Ames.

It is somewhat curious to me that the 1841 Ames cutlass would more properly be referenced to the old French naval artllery swords. 

Cheers

Hotspur; _ now off to find out exactly what Ames was sending to England and how far back that went_

----------


## Paul G.

Glen
speaking of Ames artillery. here is an example of a
1833 artillery with the 1862 date.This was the last year of production and the contract called for 1000
swords  only 300 were delivered and it is believed by some naval historians that the army delivered these to the Mississippi river boat squadrons for utility work and self defense.  hence the naval association for me. This example appears to be unissued. many of these 1862 dates are found in excellent condition. i think many of them never saw much service. The artillery crews hated them as they were not much good against a solider on horseback or a bayonet attack There are several great Ames books available which I'm sure you know

 Also thanks for the mention of the great articles by the late Dave Radcliffe here is the link http://armscollectors.com/mgs/cutlasses.htm
for anyone wishing to take a look.
I was fortunate enough to acquire the Starr cutlass in his article in the parking lot of the Hartford show several years ago.
Cheers

----------


## jonpalombi

*Good Evening Guys*

While my primary interest in antique sword collecting lies further East, I do appreciate them all.  What I have come to understand about cutlasses, hangers and sabers, has mostly been gleaned from Stone's Glossary, Newman's Swords & Blades of the American Revolution and a few other reference books.  Oh yes... and what I have learned from you good folks on *SFI*.   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):    So, please forgive me for my small knowledge of the subject.

Can someone elucidate about the difference between the cutlass, short saber and the hanger?  Is it really as simple as one being for naval use and the others for infantry?  Are the blades the same or does the cutlass typically have a wider blade?  The blades seem quite similar in length and heft.  Also, does a cutlass necessarily have a large cup guard (like Jonathan's and Alan's) to be classified as a "cutlass"?  Those full cups sure do add to the beauty of these swords!  Was there a greater need for hand protection on board a vessel, when engaged in combat?  It sure does imply that the thrust was heavily utilized.  Or should we say, more specifically, that stabbing was heavily utilized?  I imagine there was a lot of tight, in-fighting and a close-quarters struggle would generate this kind of strategy.  Thus, the weapons used would mirror this strategy.  Much like the Roman gladius, the kindjal or even the artillery sword posted above this reply.  Maybe because of the unsteady footing on the swaying deck of a ship?  After all, you really couldn't expect a calm sea, just because you were waging a battle at sea.  They were both cut and thrust weapons, yes?  

These are my late 18th century/early 19th century Western sabres.  I bought them all from Fagan Arms.  The bottom two are hangers and the middle one was referred to as a naval officer's cutlass (or is it a short saber?).  They are of approximate blade length and proportion.  Did sword-smiths make blades that could be equally at home in a cutlass hilt or a hanger hilt?  I'm a little puzzled over the parameters of this issue   :Confused:    and would appreciate some clarification.



*Be well and practice often,  Jon Palombi*

----------


## J.G. Hopkins

Jon,
Thank you for sharing your excellent 18th century swords!  Here is a good thread (that in turn links to another thread) on Cutlass vs. Hanger.  Read both threads!   :Smilie: 

If you want to bring any of the swords in your post (particularly the one in the center) along with you when you are in Burlington, I won't try to stop you!

Jonathan

----------


## jonpalombi

*Thanks Jonathan,*

I appreciate the link to these previous threads.  Well, I don't feel as much like an idiot, now.  Apparently, the terms apply, based on the intended user, than to a specific type or definition?  It is now perfectly clear to me, just how unclear the overall consensus has been.  I gather that all naval hangers are indeed cutlasses.  Does this mean that there is no such animal as an infantry cutlass?   :Confused:   Regardless, Jonathan's cup-guarded cutlass is a fox!  In my mind, that's what a good cutlass should look like.  I want one like it too!

*And around we go...   Jon*

----------


## Brendan O.

Great thread Jon. Go the eye candy. I'll keep an eye on this.

----------


## WBranner

Made from a 1796 light cavalry marked to the 14LD w/matching cut down scabbard. I sold this some time ago, but it was a nasty looking thing.

----------


## WBranner

Here is another posibility. A 1796 heavy cavalry hilt with a cut down 1821 heavy cavalry(?) officers blade (with a little etching) with a clipped point. Maybe, maybe not. This one is gone also. The hilt was with upturned disk and the shape of the finger guard where it joins the pommel was also not normal.

----------


## David Critchley

> *Thanks Jonathan,*
> 
>  Does this mean that there is no such animal as an infantry cutlass?   
> *And around we go...   Jon*


It's meaning changes over time. In Elizabethan times Cutlass or Coutlasse is used for any short heavy sword.
By the 1700s it was a term that tended to indicate a Naval weapon.

David

----------


## J.G. Hopkins

David,
Thank you for your concise clarification of terms!   :Smilie: 

Paul,
What is one of the more rare cutlasses in your collection?  How about your favorite?  I really like your M1842 cutlasses. They are strange as cutlasses go, but they are among my favorite models. 

Jonathan

----------


## Dmitry Z~G

I once had a Cutlass Supreme. It didn't cut nothing, just sat there, rusting away.

----------


## J.B. Angiulo

I learned to drive in a 1982 Cutlass Ciera; its a miracle I'm here typing this, and that Cutlass isn't being discussed over in the "confirmed kill" thread!

On topic, I have a late-19th century Argentinian Marine's cutlass. Although I don't have snapshots, its just like this one over at Therion, down to the ground-off markings. Well constructed, and very pretty, but not an enjoyable weapon in hand. It feels rather like a crowbar with a knucklebow. I rather suspect that by this point, critical thinkers in the military procurement field may have realized that they were just going through the motions when designing new edged weapons.

----------


## Peter Walker

:Big Grin:  ...All this talk of your cutlass collections has made me remember this limerick....

'There was a young sailor named Bates,
who danced the fandango on skates,
a fall on his cutlass....rendered him nutless,
and practically useless on dates !!!'

Moral : No dancing whilst fondling your favourite one !   :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Paul G.

Peter
while photographing the two civil war cutlasses in my reply above i turned and accidentally knocked one of the stool they were sitting on. being short and quite sharp it bounced up and stuck me in the leg. bled quite profusely. fortunately it was about 18 inches lower than poor sailor bates. Id like to think I'm still good on dates but I'm married
cheers.  Paul
 Will post some other cutlass pictures this weekend
[photographed on the floor]

----------


## David Critchley

Cutlass (1804 pattern) and hangers (circa 1790 and circa 1775)

----------


## Paul G.

Very nice swords  David  
What are the details on the middle hanger? Naval association? Great scabbard  paul

----------


## David Critchley

Thanks Paul,
Yes the middle one is probably Naval, but no markings. The lower one is almost certainly infantry.

----------


## Peter Walker

> Peter
> while photographing the two civil war cutlasses in my reply above i turned and accidentally knocked one of the stool they were sitting on. being short and quite sharp it bounced up and stuck me in the leg. bled quite profusely. fortunately it was about 18 inches lower than poor sailor bates. Id like to think I'm still good on dates but I'm married
> cheers.  Paul
>  Will post some other cutlass pictures this weekend
> [photographed on the floor]


Paul,
At least at parties you can say you have one sword that has 'drawn blood' !!! :Wink: 

...and it wasn't in anger !.... :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## J.G. Hopkins

David,
The hanger with the gadrooning on the pommel is one of my favorites from your collection.  Is it really that much larger than the other 5-ball hilt hanger, or is it just the angle of the photo?  

Jonathan

----------


## David Critchley

It's the angle Jonathan, they are all around the same size.

----------


## Paul G.

Here are five 1804 cutlasses. Hoping all you RN 1804 enthusiasts can enlighten me on some details as to markings on the RN issue ones and    thoughts on  the unmarked ones.    

  The first is a private purchase with a med. fuller and  thinner lighter 28.5 inch blade than standard issue ones. It has a cruder manufacturing look to it but hilt and grip appear to be regulation.
Could this be American manufacture? The second picture shows the hilt.

  The second is another unmarked cutlass with more of a regulation look as far as blade and hilt but is also of a slightly cruder finish.  British private purchase?

   The third   standard RN with Hadley on spine. crown over 8  GR cypher and the number  24 on the blade. Grip in old white paint.


     Number four is marked on the spine Wooley Deakin  & co. crown over 8 and GR cypher and the numbers 10 over 268 on the blade. The upper disk is marked K. 2: 10 This sword has a near perfect original scabbard with the markings  71 over a broad arrow over  97  



 Number five is marked T craven on the blade at the hilt  crown over 2 and GR cypher

 Paul G

----------


## David Critchley

They are really very fine Paul. 
Mine is scratch engraved 61 on the front disk - presumably the gun number
Is your cutlass with the fullered blade fitted with the pre 04 blade ?

David

----------


## Paul G.

Thanks David

The blade to me looks like a contemporary version of the government 1804. Made a little lighter and perhaps for little less cost.
The tang looks undisturbed.  The  partial original scabbard has a different stud which may be a clue.
Hoping some other collector out there may have a similar blade or cutlass.  cheers Paul

----------


## Glen C.

A question of T. Craven and whether he also did quite different brass hilt hangers. Would this be a good bit earlier than the cutlasses?

Cheers

Hotspur; _I had seen a thread elsewhere but seems later than a sword I was considering_

----------


## Dave Housteau

I have always liked the cutlass as well.  This style of weapon is extremely well suited to my study and training in various Filipino martial arts.  My interest is more with the older weapons though (1600s) , such as this one I am just about to pick up.









I was fortunate to also run across this one a while back:

----------


## Paul G.

David
 That shell guard sword looks fantastic . It has that great look of all the early cutlasses depicted in
old pirate and naval battle scenes paintings .

----------


## Paul G.

> A question of T. Craven and whether he also did quite different brass hilt hangers. Would this be a good bit earlier than the cutlasses?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Hotspur; _I had seen a thread elsewhere but seems later than a sword I was considering_


glen  Might you be referring to T Hollier. Thomas Hollier who made many of the first British "Sea Service" contracts for swords as  early as 1726 his early Double Disk cutlasses had brass hilts   Paul

----------


## Dave Housteau

> David
>  That shell guard sword looks fantastic . It has that great look of all the early cutlasses depicted in
> old pirate and naval battle scenes paintings .


Your right, it really does have that classic sort of look and it grabbed my attention right away.  It is a bit hard to see in those photos, but it has a thumbring behind the smaller of the two shells for a better grip, just like the photo of the Tessak shows.

----------


## Glen C.

> glen  Might you be referring to T Hollier. Thomas Hollier who made many of the first British "Sea Service" contracts for swords as  early as 1726 his early Double Disk cutlasses had brass hilts   Paul


Well, not exactly that early. What had come across was a T.Craven blade but in a fairly early looking hanger hilt. not Infantry but maybe a form that was later than the 1790s.

Cheers

Hotspur; _a little scattered today_

----------


## Paul G.

glen  right you are. Craven did hilt several types of swords in the 18th and early 19th cent. I had my cutlass blinders on again.

----------


## jonpalombi

> Cutlass (1804 pattern) and hangers (circa 1790 and circa 1775)




*Hey David,*

Both of our Officer's hangers have similar appearances.  Sure David, yours has a more developed D-guard to it, what with the swept, spiral quillons (is that the correct term?).  Even so, the gadrooning of the pommels and overall design, look as if they may have been created by the same maker/ team of makers.  A possibility in this small corner of the universe (you have now entered the Twilight Zone)?  




*Hey Jonathan,*

What do you think?  Mine has a spirally fluted, ray-skin covered grip, wound by flat steel strip (in the recesses) and I may be wrong but David's appears to be walnut?   Although, it could have worn away and may have once been identical.  Regardless, the carved handle seems to be done in an identical manner.  Yes?  Both hangers sure have a remarkable similarity.  Cousins?  Both have comparable blades, although mine has one less fuller, as well.  Was this a specific, mass produced pattern or a case of coincidence?   :Confused: 

*Later guys,   Jon*

----------


## David Critchley

I think the style is just a popular one in the 1770s Jon, you see the` spiral gadrooning on a lot of pommels during the period, smallswords as well as hangers.
The grip of mine is wood bound with copper, but which wood I'm not sure, quite close grained though

----------


## Paul G.

With all this talk of hangars on a cutlass thread. thought I would post pictures of what could be transitional hangars 
 that evolved into what we think of a strictly sea service swords.

  The first is an early  C 1700 English brass hilted hanger. it has a 25 inch blade with the English fleur de lis
This particular hilt form has a solid naval provenance as several examples have been recovered from late 17th and early 18th century shipwrecks.

The second example is a 18th century more traditional American cutlass form. with again an 18th century English I believe, hanger form blade   26.5 inches and also marked with the fleur de lis maple wood grip black paint on hilt.

----------


## L.S. Lawrence

Hi folks,

Saw this thread and thought I might look for a little help  firming up an id for this cutlass...

Background is I bought it a year or two ago from a reputable dealer, who stated it was  British cutlass, c. 1790. 

Recently I saw a _very_ close version of mine, for sale in an American antique store, and listed as possibly American. That started me doubting.

So was the first dealer right? or the second? Thoughts?











THANKS!  :Smilie:

----------


## L.S. Lawrence

For kicks, here's the one in the American shop.

----------


## Paul G.

Nice cutlass LS
With the double disk hilt and lack of markings
in my opinion its probably British Private purchase 
dating anywhere from 1804-1820.
I have seen perhaps 12-15 examples with this exact same cast iron grip. all with different blades.
The firm that made these grips must have made them available to a lot of cutlers. there is no reason to assume that American sword makers didn't also import and mount these grips. I have attached some pictures of a more common guard found on cutlasses with this same grip. 

 paul

----------


## David Critchley

Yes I've seen a couple with this sort of grip too. Probably merchant navy purchases or EIC

----------


## L.S. Lawrence

Paul and David,

That's helpful. 

It also is testament that with many naval blades c. 1800 it's very hard to say anything definitive. Multiple builders on both sides of the Atlantic; making blades that were used, captured, traded, sold between the British and their American counterparts; and -stepping away from cutlasses- in the case of officers, without a fouled anchor somewhere, or a provenance, you often can't even be sure the blades were naval and not artillery or cavalry etc., etc.  :Confused:  At least that's my understanding.

Btw, the examples you show Paul are indeed out there to be seen. There was one on eBay last week. That too was identified as US-made, fwiw.







Thanks again to both of you.  :Smilie:

----------


## Paul G.

exactly.   There were far more privately armed vessels than government ones in the period of these swords. i would guess there were not many private armies.  hence the lack of any markings.
The GR on the one in my Picture Is believed to be a sort of mark of "quality" rather than a government mark.
Its a fun subject as there are and endless 
variety of PP cutlasses.
I saw the one you mentioned on e-bay   item number 190263143473
It was an excellent example. fair price too 
 cheers  Paul

----------


## Dmitry Z~G

I recently sold this cutlass. As you can see, it combines features of the 1804, 1814, 1845, etc. Blade appears to have been plated.
My feeling is that this may either be a movie prop, or else a poorly-researched fake, which I described in my ebay listing.
Curiously, the buyer emailed me after receiving the cutlass, and [trying to rub my ignorance in deeper than it already is], unequivocally declared that it is in fact a bonified mega-rare 1814 cutlass, and a mega-find on his part. I didn't respond. Pictures speak louder than words.

----------


## Glen C.

Maybe the buyer is simply trying too hard to add two plus two and end up with five. I know I am often willing to let my own buys wander in possibilities at times but I try to keep things in check with what more or less exacting simiarities and examples I can find.

The blade looks quite like the four machete plate in _Boarders Away_ and is at the same time very close in that tome to the plates regarding the British 1814. Combined with text in between, maybe not a hard (albeit likely incorrect) conclusion to come to. The tri-fuller blade pictured in that plate also bears a GR supporting a crown.

With after use plating not unheard of and that the blade you moved may have been shaved, sanded, ground before a later treatment; Is it wholly unlikely that such a combination might have been put together (more or less) in period?

While Gilkerson's title may be the best single reference I have for 18th and 19th century for cutlass variation, it doesn't seem a huge strecth for someone else to "figure it out" in suiting themselves as accurate.

Cheers

Hotspur; _I must have missed your cutlass listing. You do offer up some interesting pieces I should pay more attention to_

----------


## Dmitry Z~G

The guard is stainless steel. The blade is very thin, and probably not tempered. The mark is fake. The buyer is living in a land of make-believe. 
I bought it from a crappy photo, thinking I scored big. That is until I took it out of the box. I wonder where this piece really came from...

----------


## Glen C.

Luke LaFontaine and some other cinema and stage participants here  might be able to spot its use, if a prop.

I don't recognize the blade from the production market but that doesn't mean it wasn't somewhere along the line.

Cheers

Hotspur; _what I know of cutlasses would only fill a very small tea cup_

----------


## Glen C.

Some may want to watch out for this one (maybe previously mentioned). I knew exactly what this one was.

----------


## W. Kroncke

oboy! cutlasses! glad to see this ressurected thread  :Smilie: 

here's a solingen made dutch type 1 klewang, captured by the germans from the dutch and put to use in the kriegsmarine, and actually re-captured by a UK royal navy officer during a boarding of a german schnellboot in the channel in ww2. what tales it could tell...

these were the basis of the milsco series of USN cutlasses, almost exact copies as used in the ww2 era. these are sometimes mistakenly identified as '1917' cutlasses. these represent the final swan song of the boarding cutlass in most navies.

----------


## Dmitry Z~G

> here's a solingen made dutch type 1 klewang, captured by the germans from the dutch and put to use in the kriegsmarine, and actually re-captured by a UK royal navy officer during a boarding of a german schnellboot in the channel in ww2. what tales it could tell...


Hello,
That's a really great story! I suppose it is supported by the markings. Is it possible to snap some photos of them?

----------


## Tracy-Leon Barham Esq

The early hanger mentioned is indeed C. 1700, possibly the 1692 hanger mentioned in naval records? These type of hangers ,I can confirm have been brought up off ship wrecks of the time. One hanger hilt that I have had the good fortune to examine was brought up from the "Stirling castle", a third rate ship of the line that sank on the Goodwin sands in the great storm of 1703. These could have been carried by naval men, or even the Marines that would have also been on board at the time of the sinking. I have in my possession one of the very same hangers, only my one still has the blade. I have compared them together and they are of a pattern. I bought mine from "Butterfield & Butterfield, San Francisco, back in Nov of 1997, it was from a well known collection (Lot 2130) tag No 469. It is 32 1/2" overall, blade 27" with the "Running wolf" stamp on both sides. One of the side guards has been removed (raised face) this could have been a modification in the day (due to catching on clothing etc) or at a later date for ease of mounting on a wall? I hope this is of use. Tracy-Leon Barham Esq.

----------

