# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  Screaming (so called Ames) Eagle

## Eric Fairbanks

This is one of the larger variation screaming eagles. While the different Ames heads are very interesting and difficult for me to understand my focus at this post is the etching on blade. This sabre is etched with two different types. Any thoughts?c

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

Total 33 in.
Blade 27 7/8 in.
Wide 1 1/4in.
Thick 5/16in.
Fuller 20 3/8in.
No false edge
American made blade I would think. But not sure.

----------


## Glen C.

Hi Eric,

The sword you  show was entirely British made.  The combination of white etch (sometimes silvered) panels with adjoining blue&gilt are not uncommon or scarce but fewer in the grand scheme of things. The  counterguard is gone.

My mind is a mess today and I and just packed up pertinent books yesterday but there are telling traits between the English and Ames screamers. From tail to tooth, they are quite different aside from some basic profiles. I'll attach one example of each but I have many dozens in my files. The first three things to notice are the pommel collar, guard at the pommel and the blades. Other traits are the grips themselves, ferrules, and blade etching.

It is hard to prove whether the form began with Ames or in England but Nathan Ames was po'd about the British copies of his swords. Although that article is less than specific, The screamers may well be one that made him mad. Given time, I would be able to retrace where I have already posted the article (I guess It wasn't such a chore  :Wink:  ). I should make a copy of it.
http://www.gunandswordcollector.com/...eferences.html

The English made examples are much more common finds in today's market and once familiar with the Ames builds, easy to spot at a glance. There have been a few that still defy logic and probably privately cutlered with some Ames parts.  Simple blade traits on the Ames species screamer are an unstopped fuller (no ricasso) until some time in the 1840s-1850s when we see an occasional example with an  Ames m1840 mounted artillery sword blade. Going through a couple of folders today and I realize how much indexing I still have to do.

The burgundy background is the Ames, green English

Hamilton's history of Ames book, invaluable and a good start.
http://www.gunandswordcollector.com/...lton_ames.html

Cheers

Hotspur; _I lack owning any of the screamers in question_ 

http://www.gunandswordcollector.com/...eferences.html

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

If the Ames company started in 1829 andrelevanceEagle heads are not generally listed in production most must be 1827 to 1834 (when Ames Manufacturing was founded) date. If the sword is British then it also must be a late date. The way the fuller turns up and knife edge gets bigger must be a late British attribute. Not to mention copying Ames who was born in 1803 and would have been hard pressed to make a sword before 1823 unless it was designed by his Father earlier.  So the Screaming English would be 1830 to 1834? The Screaming Ames could be 1829 to 1834? Notice the repaired guard on the Ames? Sad but  its what you get from time to time. Recent repair or butchery I think. I bought the Ames book some time ago but could only find my Hickox Collectors Guide.I guess I am inclined to think some Brit stepped on a Ketlands tail and Ames copied them. Eric

I do not understand your Ames  articles relevance as it was by a news paper that obviously loved Mr. Ames and he does not mention pioneering work by Winner, Rose, the VM, or Starr by name.

----------


## Glen C.

Nathan senior was a tool maker.  The Hamilton book shows the screamers and date of the initial contract. As mentioned, packed away for the coming weekend.

Some more bookmarks

http://vintagemachinery.org/mfgindex/detail.aspx?id=39

http://newenglandtravels.blogspot.co...civil-war.html

The screamers are not a Ketland form, imo.  I have to agree to disagree. Ketland was a purveyor sourcing from many shops in Birmingham and I personally associate only one form with Ketland, broadly discussed and shown in Mowbray's primer on eagle pommel swords.

Cheers

Hotspur; _perhaps the only other hotly contentious debate I would enter is listing the  ACW Ames American light cavalry sword as an m1860_

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

Looking at 3 different heads from 2 different countries I see no way there is no plagiarism going on. The nostrils, crest, eye placement,  shape of beak and neck proportions are similar. Three different patternmakers do not have an idea for an eagle head that close. While I do believe the screamers are not a casting direct copy it is obvious they had a Ketland example in the room while carving these puppies out of wood. Many eagle heads are design copies or at least inspired by others work. The french forward staring angry eagles come to mind. Americans seemed to like that. The Ames screamer and the Brit screamer are not casting copies but somebody had someone elses bird in hand when the mold was made. They are different sizes. Because of the waste of molten brass when pouring for spouts and vents I would guess they used a board with 4, 6 or eight patterns of which no two would have been exact but very close. There would have been a fill point and vent for each that would have to be filed and polished. Which affects design conserns. Just like the hotspot created where the counter guard met the knuckle guard on the early US attempts at casting hilts. Now for the Light Calvary vs. M1860, convenience would be the simple answer. New words and phrases are created all the time for convenience.  The word or phrases most used or catchy get to be the ones used. Now to get back to what I ask in my last post. What dates do you reacon for the Ames and the Brit screamer? Eric

----------


## Glen C.

> What dates do you reacon for the Ames and the Brit screamer?


I have reiterated my thoughts a couple of times now. After I am set up tomorrow I can give you the date for the Ames bird once I have the book opened. For some reason 1836 sticks in my mind for the infantry spadroon, with the counterguard artillery sabre following.

One could speculate that the British open mouth screamer was earlier but the facts as we know it don't gel with the known examples before the 1830s. A good many of the small Ketland type are post 1820 and Ketland in type/shape only. The older wedge top Ketland pommel the only known example even marked to Ketland.  I do not believe either the early Ketland or later copies have anything to do with the screamers. Instead  (my hunch), look to the other magnates such as Salter, who also sourced shops up and down the lanes of Birmingham. The Ketland Co. went bankrupt in 1821, exports ceased in 1831. The jr Ketland brothers were done as  Philadelphia sellers before that (1815). Sources from net searches.

Show me data and source for the British screamer and I would welcome it but I prefer not to speculate. Instead I read existing files/books and pick those apart when I can show a difference with proof.  I have the utmost regard for Flayderman and the younger Mowbray for presenting the Medicus collection with little speculation, including just the facts.  The elder Mowbray as well.

In my first reply I write "It is hard to prove whether the form began with Ames or in England"  I then do speculate that the linked article may well relate to what was being copied. Truly, It is not at the top of my lists, only that I tend to winnow the two as best I can when saving images.  What I have yet to see is a British maker or retailer screamer actually marked to them.  Somewhere in my files is a marked mixed etch bladed spadroon done that looks like British parts on a British blade.  I carry less in my mind after the stroke. I'll check out Bezdek. Edit  well duh it says Porter right there on the blade.

As far as the larger early wedge top Ketland and the second decade examples; I sort them in my mind as type I and type II. I have a large head sabre and small head spadroon.

Cheers

Hotspur; _still looking for a dark grip plain blade Bolton sabre_

----------


## Glen C.

The rest, iirc, 20 per post?

Sold by and photos courtesy of Deal Joe Salter. He is ok with sharing photos.  My Bolton came from him.

Note the only British name on Oldswords is.
England	Birmingham	Porter, Robert	1642	1649	
England	Birmingham	Porter, Robert	1643		
England	Birmingham	Porter, Robert	1686		
England	Birmingham	Porter, Samuel 	1697

I'll dig out Bezdek American.  I'll get the crane out and get it to the desk  :Wink:   Looks later, not an earlier sword. 1830s-1840s

----------


## Glen C.

From Bezdek 

Utica, NY

Joseph S Porter born 1783

Porter&White 1808-1811
Barton&Porter 1811-1817
Joseph S. Porter 1817-1842
Doolittle, Norris&Co (associated/partnered with Porter) 1842-1846
Joseph S. Porter 1846-1862

Silversmith, Goldsmith, Jeweler, Military Goods

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

Nice spadroon I would love to smell that. I have no spadroons with gold and bluing left. Some sabres with a bit but nothing that nice. Nice sword. All of the Ketlands I have big or small have the peening crown. Some more detailed and pronounced depending on the freshness of the casting pattern I suppose. I do not know if the Ames screamer came before the cart or the Brit screamer. I have no idea. But I think I can safely say the Ketland came first. The Ames or the British screamer came second and third. Ames should have known Bald Eagles have no crest but he used it anyway because he liked someone else design. To me the Ketland is a beaut. I do not see Salter in the screamers as his birds are hairy and morose facial expression. Perhaps eagle no. 55 in Mowbray but it is a Ketland copy with the LePage or SH&F forward angry stare. So perhaps a copy of a copy and copy would be incorrect it would be more inspired from. I have some Ames swords but focus more on swords from War of 1812. In order to do that you have to have some eagle heads and if you buy one, well there you go. Now I have an Ames eagle from 1834, 1836 thanks to your observations. While not 1812 it is early American. I thought most 5 balls went out of Vogue in mid to late 1820's in America and by 1805 for the Brits. 1834 seems really late for 5 ball I will have to adjust my thinking. Do you know of other Brits besides Porter making screamers? I will keep my eye out for a Bolton for you. I do not have a Bolton or a Thurkle. Eric

----------


## Glen C.

So there are a couple of pages about the Ames screamers in Hamilton's book that have the dialog about British copies and the request by the Army for officer swords (the spadroons). 1835 listed for both the spadroon and sabre.  The chapter entitled early officer swords.

Cheers

Hotspur; _not entirely conclusive but a major vote in the book that Ames was first with the pommel_

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

I cannot find my Ames book did a search and the Ames book went up. Headed to the mountains so I ordered one for there. Kind of hard to find and a little pricey. Never the less while I mostly buy the m1833's the eagles are very interesting and American made. Would also appear to be from same time period as 33's. Thanks for info. Eric

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

Well here is a true wrench in the British Screaming eagles, it seems Captain Christopher Perry had one and he died June 1, 1818. The sword scabbard is inscribed with a date of 1798 which must be the date of some dastardly deed as it is really early for an eagle head of this design. Non the less it does take things way beyond 1834 which is the assumed date for the Ames Screamers. Page 22 and 23 in US Naval Officers their Swords and their Dirks. Also the New York Historical Society. Were the Brits first with the screamers and could it be 1798-1801 as the NYHS suggest?

----------


## Glen C.

> Well here is a true wrench in the British Screaming eagles, it seems Captain Christopher Perry had one and he died June 1, 1818. The sword scabbard is inscribed with a date of 1798 which must be the date of some dastardly deed as it is really early for an eagle head of this design. Non the less it does take things way beyond 1834 which is the assumed date for the Ames Screamers. Page 22 and 23 in US Naval Officers their Swords and their Dirks. Also the New York Historical Society. Were the Brits first with the screamers and could it be 1798-1801 as the NYHS suggest?


Attribution based on the scabbard mount. Show me the money  :Smilie:   Not too long ago, I was contacted by someone that lurks here. We were discussing a number of things but of the topics, empty scabbards came up.

I'll not say it is impossible but as even the elder Mowbray does not include this bird in his treatise on early models, I am a hard sell.  Another point I would make is that if this type were apparently so common early on, as to be found along with the Osborn, Bolton and Ketland (wedge and later), then we would surely see it marked by American retailers in those years both before and after the 1812 war. Show me a Wells or Wolfe marked sword.  Show me an early Spies marked example.  Show me an Upson marked example.  Show me any early retailer marking one such.

Tuite very carefully lists it as attributed to the scabbard inscription and I think it was included in the book as an inclusion of a noted figure in naval history.

Cheers

Hotspur; _we will likely continue to see it listed as a Ketland, with no basis in fact_

----------


## Richard Schenk

From your note above I take it NYHS published an article on Captain Christopher Perry's sword.  Is it available on line?  If so do you have a link?  I can't find it.  

Christopher Perry had a quite short career as a US Navy officer.  He was commissioned as a Captain in 1798 during the quasi-war with France and was involuntarily retired in 1801.  It would be reasonable to expect his sword would date to his period of active service, which I suppose is the basis for the NYHS dating.  It is possible, of course, that he could have bought another sword for wear after his retirement, but 1818 would remain the absolutely latest date possible, which pretty much settles the question of which had the screaming eagle first.

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

Richard I don't know for sure all I know is whats in the NYHS museum.  It is the scabbard so inscribed and not the sword. Possibly a later added sword or hilt not true to scabbard, I do not know. I will have to fly up there later and see what provenance comes with the sword. Interesting so many of these come up with early guards and never the Ames. It is hard to find on their site I will try to send a link. Eric

----------


## Glen C.

> Interesting so many of these come up with early guards and never the Ames.


Which early guards you you see that are not found on the Ames variations?

The only stirrup example I have archived was that likely composition piece.  The other very flowery guards are most certainly post 1812 war, including the first empire spike/hook type on the top near the pommel.  The one other exception in my files is a British 1803 like guard that has a very 1830s-1840s look.  Several use the same guard we see on Spies marked swords (again a later trend for those guards).  The screamers with backstraps almost need a different folder but the trend is always on late grips.

So the only possible pre 1800 I fried my brain over was that funky looking Ebay sword.  Find a sister or two  :Smilie: 





My eagle files uploaded a couple of years ago an open book.  More pictures of screamers can be found at
https://drive.google.com/folderview?...Vk&usp=sharing

Some cross referenced in my Ames folder and there are some Ames in that other folder
https://drive.google.com/folderview?...lE&usp=sharing

The entire old eagle archive is here.  Feel free to browse and link any of the images in referencing what some see as old guard types.  For some reason that Porter sword shown above is only in a different section of an older drive but it is around my files somewhere (militia folder, iirc).
https://drive.google.com/folderview?...mM&usp=sharing

Eagles system II will probably be uploaded next year, as I have accumulated more images.  I need to do some serious editing.  I guess one reason I wait is that I occasionally find new variants.  I have more in a few of those folders, such as the Navy folder.  Tuite seemed approachable at the one show I met him at and he was selling.  For the life of me, I have lost the web pages he had up with contact and stuff.  He might vouch for a deeper provenance regarding the Perry sword.  Mark Cloke has some uploaded at Old Swords.  I guess that dedicated eagles page should really go up but I really tend to defer to stuff already published.

Cheers

Hotspur; _I may have missed a few I've never seen before but that occurrence is getting less and less as the years march on_

----------


## nickpowell

hilt and blade motifs very beautiful.

----------


## Richard Schenk

I do not have one of the Ames screaming eagles, but would like one.  I was therefore initially interested when I saw a dealer listing for a five-ball eagle head with an Ames blade.  Unfortunately, when I looked at it, it was not really a screaming eagle.



The pommel appears to be a more-or-less generic Ketland eagle with a closed beak - don't believe Ames ever used one of this design.  The blade is ovoid in cross section, is acid etched, and marked with dry needle with the Ames Chicopee address.  A Chicopee address would make this blade too late for the Ames eagle heads.  I suspect the blade is from one of the knight's head-pommel militia NCO swords from the late-1840s/1850s which has been mated with an older Birmingham Ketland-style five-ball hilt.

The real reason for this post, however, is to get some clarification of the official status of the Ames screaming eagles.  Hamilton seems to imply that these swords had some official status, i.e. that Col Bamford, Chief of Army Ordinance had approved the silver-mounted version with straight blade for use by infantry officers and had requested a gold-mounted model with a saber blade for use by artillery officers.  Thillmann, however, tells us the M1832/4 General and Staff Officers sword with leather scabbard was intended for all officers of the infantry, artillery, and ordinance.  He doesn't even mention the Ames eagle heads.  So what is the story?  Were they approved prior to the M1832/4 and superseded by it?  Or were they, as Hamilton indicates, a cheaper alternative to the M1832/4 for use by company grade officers?  Or were they totally unofficial?  The lack of any examples with inspection marks would seem to support their unofficial status, but if they were lacking official status, why did Bamford ask Ames to produce an Artillery version?  Can anyone clarify?  Thanks.

----------


## Dale Martin

Guys: My Wife has this one, which I think I posted once.....straight blade and silver plated scabbard....One presumes an Artillery NCO..

Dale

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

The screamer with the older guard is most assured a composite. The grip looks like some I have tried to make from deer and elk antler not like bone. Antler can make a really nice grip but 90% of the ones I make get into the pith before completing them. Very thin hard surface and very hard to find a section straight enough. It does look like ivory once polished. Richard your photo of the Ames I have looked at on the dealers site a few times and had went back to it yesterday and I agree with you a composite also. Looking at where the eagle meets the bone it does not match up nor is the ferrule correct and your analysis of the blade seems spot on to me. Dale what an unusual configuration does it have a laminated grip? The guard reminds me of bird pommel p guards the way it is widened in the counter guard. I love the angry eagles. I think perhaps infantry officer if silver. Regards Eric

----------


## Dale Martin

Eric, Long oval shape, two pieces, held by the ferrules no rivets...Looks like flat panels to me, possibly bone.....I have no idea what this sword actually is, someone told me Infantry and another said Artillery...I think Infantry, as it is straight, not curved.

I cannot find a maker anywhere on this weapon, even under the langets. Needle etching with the usual gold and blue, but no maker. If anyone has an idea.....?

Dale

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

Dale perhaps SH&F infantry officer. The 1821 regulations called for straight blade. Take a look at this http://landandseacollection.com/id765.html
 Thanks for better photo. Eric
Simon Helvig & Fils

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

Dale perhaps SH&F infantry officer. The 1821 regulations called for straight blade. Take a look at this http://landandseacollection.com/id765.html
 Thanks for better photo. Eric
Simon Helvig & Fils

----------


## Dale Martin

OK, someone else suggested it was War of 1812 and French made, but the lack of maker puts me off...It does have the Medusa, so one presumes it is French made.

Dale

----------


## Richard Schenk

> OK, someone else suggested it was War of 1812 and French made, but the lack of maker puts me off...It does have the Medusa, so one presumes it is French made.
> 
> Dale


With no disrespect to the folks at Land and Sea, I believe War of 1812 quite unlikely - as Eric points out, this appears to be a sword made in compliance with the Regulations of 1821 and probably dates from the 1820s.  I don't know why so many folks insist that any American sword with a stirup or reverse-P grip is War of 1812 - probably just marketing.  I believe the Medusa motif was also used by non-French makers, but that being said, I agree your sword appears French and probably SH&F.

----------


## Dale Martin

Richard: I agree, just marketing their items. I looked carefully under the obverse langet, and in Italic Script, "SH&F"....It is impossible to get a good shot if this, but after much looking with a magnifier, it is apparent. I think we have an 1821 Militia Infantry Officers' Sword.

Dale

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

Dale I cannot say for sure, I am going by grip groove design, angry eagle and ofcourse as you say the snake head gal. Eric

----------


## Richard Schenk

Does anyone have any thoughts on my main question, i.e. did the Ames eagles have any official status?  If they were not actually a formal regulation model, were they at least recognized as official patterns by Army Ordinance?

----------


## Glen C.

> Does anyone have any thoughts on my main question, i.e. did the Ames eagles have any official status?  If they were not actually a formal regulation model, were they at least recognized as official patterns by Army Ordinance?


I know nothing more than what is presented in Hamilton's book.  In face to face discussion with a dealer at the Hartford Show eight years ago, I asked the very same questions about Hamilton's thoughts.  That fellow had a primo silver plate spadroon.  He mentioned Mike Silvey as someone that might have better information but I have never approached Silvey, nor know a contact.




> Thillmann, however, tells us the M1832/4 General and Staff Officers sword with leather scabbard was intended for all officers of the infantry, artillery, and ordinance. He doesn't even mention the Ames eagle heads.


No disrespect meant but he probably doesn't mention them (and I may be snarky when I say he knows nothing) because he knows little about eagles in general.

The Shiloh piece is another case of Rafael being a bit confused  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):   (God bless).  However everything about the sword except the pommel may well be correct, including the ovoid Chicopee marked blade in a five ball hilt.  Ames did a lot of special orders.    Only the mad doctor creating that Frankensword knows for sure.  There is a crazy Ames blade assembly on Ebay as well. 182209354663

I had posted about my post 1840 Ames screamer some time ago.  A late stopped fuller and blade etched to what is typical of that decade's etching.  Not marked to Ames but undeniably so.
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...ommel-Spadroon

Dale, The sword you attached is not French made but we do see that langet on some French type swords.  I have seen a number of Helvig swords destined for the French market, which may seem contrary.  My question would be if Helvig was based in Alsace vs Solingen.  Maybe politics and trade mellowed out for a bit after the First Empire of Napoleon.

Cheers

Hotspur;  _Hamilton was around and posting sometimes at the Antiqueguns.com phorum along with Furr but that board appears to be long gone like a turkey through the corn_

----------


## Richard Schenk

Glen,

     - Thanks for the feedback.  If anyone knows Hamilton or how to contact him, it would be good to ask him about this topic.  I'm surprised there apparently hasn't been much discussion on what could be a rather important point.

     - I had seen that odd Ames blade assembly that you mentioned on eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/US-AMERICAN-...oAAOSwgmJX1Hdc).  The blade seems to be from a M1832/4 General and Staff Officer sword, the hilt from a militia reverse-P artillery sword.  A nice looking piece, but I don't think Ames is likely to have made such a pairing.  I don't know if I've ever seen an Ames reverse-P hilt.

     - Ref Glen's SH&F sword, I guess whether you consider it French or not depends on whether you consider Alsace Germany or France.  I believe it was under French administration during the period this sword was made, so I said French.  It's nothing about which I would fall on my proverbial sword however.

Dick

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

Richard you forever keep me wondering, looking and reading for more information and sadly too much information is missing on early American swords. Regards Eric

----------


## Richard Schenk

> I had seen that odd Ames blade assembly that you mentioned on eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/US-AMERICAN-...oAAOSwgmJX1Hdc).  The blade seems to be from a M1832/4 General and Staff Officer sword, the hilt from a militia reverse-P artillery sword.  A nice looking piece, but I don't think Ames is likely to have made such a pairing.  I don't know if I've ever seen an Ames reverse-P hilt.


Off topic again, but I just noticed the seller with the odd Ames with the reverse-P hilt has another sword, an artillery saber, with a virtually identical reverse-P hilt.  If I had a suspicious mind, I might find them too similar.  Not really though - actually,there are a number of differences, but they sure are similar. I also note the etching on the Klingenthal-made blade of the artillery saber looks rather late for the hilt style - rather like a French-made M1850 S&F blade.  The last photo is froma non-regulation Klingenthal M1850 S&F blade.

----------


## Richard Schenk

What is going on here? - I'm seeing a number of reverse-P hilts like those in the above post with blades which appear to be from other model swords.  Are these period hybrids or re-hiltings, or, which I think more likely, composites put together in modern times for the collectors market?  If the latter, are the hilts genuine old hilts, or are they modern repros from India or China?

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

Richard the one on the m1850 infantry officer is no doubt an original. It is a style I have noticed most offten on Solingen made blades. The other one I also do not doubt but do not reconize its particular style. While the bird head pommel, knuckle guard and quillion are common enough the reinforcement fillet where the knuckle guard meets the counter guard is not one I am familiar with. Both swords display new wrap and wire seldom seen on this type period hanger. The front ferrule or band also is the wide flat American style and I suspect new as I would think both of these should have the more rounded ring look. I think someone quite talented is trying to make a little money. This is the 5th or 6th I have seen in a year or so. Regards Eric

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

The plot thickens.

----------


## Glen C.

Nice. Do you have any more pictures?  I am assuming it is a sabre.  This one reminds me of one I had seen a decade ago. Stirrup hilt with counterguard and ring and iirc, the first time I had disputed it as early but hey, what do I know anyway.  It may well be the missing link to claim provenance for the form.  I have to mention again that Mowbray steered well clear from it in his old testament.

What does it show in the counterguard?  I have a plain spadroon in files with the diamond that was ballparked by some as 1830s but that one had the early traits as well..  I'll dig it out of the file pile tomorrow.

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

Glen, it is a spadroon. I sent you an email with photos. Eric

----------


## Glen C.

Troublemaker  :Wink:    Email and some other photos back at you  :Smilie:   That spadroon I mentioned and another posted below.

I am negotiating a different type of crested eagle but that may not pan out.  No doubt someone else may make the deal first.  Not a screamer but it may end up as a screaming deal.  They don't want to hear wholesale prices but we are moving in the right direction.

Cheers

Hotspur; _The bearded screamers yet another variation and I sent an example labeled as Amish  (tongue is cheek, not meant as offensive)_

Let me know if these four pictures show?

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

Is that bird head spadroon yours? What a beauty. I love those and not real common. Is that a Snake in the beak of that eagle on the Langet on the screamer? If it is another sword on my list. Can you give a date range for the diamond guard stirrup hilts? Eric
Good luck on the new find.

----------


## Glen C.

> Is that bird head spadroon yours? What a beauty. I love those and not real common. Is that a Snake in the beak of that eagle on the Langet on the screamer? If it is another sword on my list. Can you give a date range for the diamond guard stirrup hilts? Eric
> Good luck on the new find.


A SSSssssnake?  Let me post a couple more from that set.  I think you may be right!  a Mexican Amish!  It may actually be an Ames?

The other spadroon one I might have had but chose something else at the time.  That one had been at Shiloh Relics many years ago.






Both of those from my old spadroon folder.  There is another Mexican blade etched spadroon in there that Harvey Withers used to have.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...DQ?usp=sharing

Cheers

Hotspur; _I've come to the conclusion that I may have just about reached my own limit in wanting to save every image I come across.  I frequently have a dozen eagle pommels alone waiting to archive.  Time to condense_

----------


## Glen C.

As to the diamond in the counterguard; Like I wrote in email, some felt that spadroon I posted above is post war of 1812.  It is quite similar/appropriate for the British naval spadroons of the early 19th century.

On the other hand, my Thurkle sabre and Wooley hussar hilt spadroon with diamonds date better to the 1790s.  One thing for sure, it was not just one maker or cutler/furbisher.  There are a few circle insets in my files as well.

And on we go```````````````````````.........................  ..>>>>>>>>>>>>>

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

Here is yet another British Screamer on the usual site. While the guard style was used well into the 1830s the blade typically was not. Certainly an early blade although it proves nothing as trading and old stock use was common. The shear number of these British screamers with old style blades and old style hilts still causes me pause in late attribution. The theory based solely on Ames in news paper article crying foul. There are no marked swords to prove otherwise and nothing other than the consistent use of old parts to lead someones mind in a different direction. Some British Screamers can be easily dated after Ames screamers but not all. This one as I said on the usual site. 202058545471

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

British Screaming eagle. This is one of mine and deserves the late attribution based on mix of needle and white etch.

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

This is a very late British type Screamer. Note the wagon wheel carving on bone grip a style sometimes used by Ames. I would date this on after 1840.

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

These Ames eagles all have later blade and etch styles.

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

> The plot thickens.


Replacement of photobucket photo.

----------


## Glen C.

My curio to report for the year would have to be the Spies like hilt on a screamer listed as Ames and has been on ebay for months and months.  Other Ames listing oddities that have been giving me cramps are roman pommeled militia swords with German ferrules, listed as Ames.

A nice barrage of images there Eric and perhaps somewhat of a progression for the curious to ponder on.  Aside from the stopped fuller late Ames marked blades, the other dating tool are the pages in Hamilton's history showing the plates of blade etching.

As with Horstmann using Ames parts, I've little doubt there were others.

Cheers

GC

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

For every thing I find that leads me to believe the British( or possibly German) screamers are older I find things that say they are not. I cannot make up my mind nor get them out of my head.

----------


## Glen C.

The old parallel universe conundrum.

The mixed etch panels also arguably  earlier but I believe many will regard them post 1820, especially when we regard elements that are not unique to eagle pommels alone.  The surplus of old blades being re-purposed  fairly obvious by the time we get to the Wolfe and Spies marked swords appearing and Spies marked swords lasting past the Mexican war period (imo, into the 1850s).

I still stand by my observations and by the old newspaper article mentioning Ames ire of the English imports.  Certainly that can be shown by more than just the eagle pommel gapers that mimic Ames styling.

Post up what you see as German furbished screaming eagles.  I have a Berger marked Ketland type eagle in files but no German screamers that show any B&G evidence of even being German in blade alone. An edit and addendum, I have never encountered a screamer that was not etched in one fashion or another, which is why I am pretty sure you aren't going to find a German furbished example.

My one screamer here not marked by Ames, has a gilt  instead of a silver wash and a late blade.  The blade etch as described and shown at the link previously posted.
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...ommel-Spadroon

For some reason, I have never doubted why Mowbray never claimed them in his English Import section.  It is not like there were not droves of all variations of the screamers when he had the "bible"  published.

Cheers

GC

----------


## Glen C.

An archived link view that I can't find on the current publisher's pages

https://web.archive.org/web/20170118...eferences.html

Note the dates for all three articles, both the first and last regarding the duping of style during the 1830s

Cheers

GC

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

The most noticeable thing to me has always been the earlier look in styling of the British screamers while the Ames pieces mostly have later styling attributes. The plot thickens, when did Wooley stop using this mark?

----------


## Will Mathieson

I've seen early 1821p LC troopers swords marked Woolley & Sargant. I have a 1790's LC sword marked Woolley.

----------


## Glen C.

My own real interests in the matter have been more to distinguish the Ames swords from all the rest.  The mention of German examples mimicking this pommel makes me even more curious, as there is another development that pokes me in the eye a bit.  I need to open the Ames book again for that ferrule anomaly.  Perhaps others have noticed this very German trait of the oak leaf and acorn pattern that are identical to the miles of metal we find on these.





Anyway

As mentioned a number of times, general consensus is that surplus blades and bits did get distributed over time (The Bazelon article but one of them).  We know, for instance, that even the American big two of Horstmann & Ames produced many swords from a mix and match practice,  I would hardly expect other countries to have approached that differently.  I have shown my Woolley Deakin & Co. eagle pommel sword a number of times and in most instances have deferred to the reality that the marked blade did not make it a sword made by the firm of Woolley Deakin & Co.  

Perhaps one of the most quizzical screamers I have come across is a well marked and etched example, with the proper pommel, grip and ferrule that bears a knuckle guard we would find on Spies sword examples.  A custom?  A period retrofit?  It is one that kind of bowled me over.  It had recently and briefly been owned by our own Tim Graham and surfaced again in a new collector whom has posted of it.  Immediately recognized, as I had archived it during both auctions over the past few years.  This one really does have me just trying not to scratch my head too much.




I continue to harvest images but I have started to be a little more selective.  I am glad to read of Eric's acquisitions and this one does seem to read as Woolley & Sargant.  

More and more, I have tried to keep an open mind on my own level of findings and one this past year or so really did have me saying "never say never"  One guard in particular is the Ketland type with the first empire looking guards.  I swore up and down there were never, ever any Osborn weepers with the guard type.  Well.......



............foot in mouth.

Eric mentioned on facebook that he is working on a screamer that appears to be like a Porter marked example.  One that I have posted of in the past, marked to Porter leads to  Bezdek and Bazelon books that list a metal (gold&silver) smith and militaria company in Utica NY with listings from 1816 until his death in 1862.  That example as well a British looking bird.  A mixed panel blade of b&g/bright etchings.




So, some morning musings.  I have some recent stuff to archive but I am coming to a close as to new variants (never say never though).  Someone got that recent Bolton spadroon at a good price.  I watched the auction and will archive that one but I did not bid on it.  I still wait for that one particular sword.

Cheers
GC

We have lost emoticons on the board here but be assured that I am my same old jovial snarky self ?8^)~

----------

