# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Middle-East, India & Africa (MEIA) >  Saber  with Persian symbol of  Shir-o-Khorshid

## Vahtang K.

Dear members of forum, friends!
Those of you that familiar with the subject please contact me, or answer through this wonderful forum.
I need help identifying one curios sword I had found during my visit last year fall in Caucasian Georgia . 
Metal work of sheath, handle and gard is definitely North Caucasian style, 19 century, I would say , by Dagestanian master  that was working in Tbilisi. I have no doubt about it.
 But blades embellishment  is something I have not seen before. There is recognizable royal crowned figure, this motive we see sometime on blades from Caucasus. But then among Arabic inscription , there is a Shir-o-Khorshid, The figure of Royal lion of Iran , with sword in his paw, and Sun rising over his back. This symbol came to wide use with Sefevid dynasty, I believe during the reign of Shah Tahmasp.( this sword is definitely not from this time period)    Also there is crescent Moon ( but not Osmanli style)  with six pointed star above it. 

I doubt that this blade is Iranian work ,because  it is look a little too rough and quality of blade is not so excellent.  But why than this royal Persian motive on it ????  In 19 century when power of Iran was in decline and it lost its influence in TransCaucasia, what would be the reason for caucasian master to place this symbol on blade. 
My friends I skilled more in use of old style swords and daggers than in its identification, so I really need your help. 
Yours,
Vakhtang Kiziria

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## Vahtang K.

I found a way to publish pictures if those below is not enaugh let me know and I  will post more.

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## Vahtang K.



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## Vahtang K.

One more request! 
Unfortunately I can't read inscriptions on the blade. :Confused:  I know it is not very easy to read from such bad fotos,but could at least something to be translated. I thought it may be from Koran. and part with the star looks like makers name. Is it correct assumption? 
waiting patiently for your comments,

Vahtang Kiziria

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## Vahtang K.

Evil web virus makes my posts invisible.  :Confused:

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## David Lewis Smith

I can see your photos fine, but can not read the inscriptions.

I am hoping Manouchehr will sound in on this one he is our local expert for reading script from the Middle East

I agree with your easement, this does not look like a 'quality' blade.  It is not that It is a bad blade it just is not as finished as one would expect.  

Is the blade sharp or has it ever been sharp?  I can not tell from the photos.  Also can you tell what kind of steal the sword is made from, is it Wootz or Damascus?

It looks a bit like a sword made for the tourist trade,  I have a friend in  Afghanistan who makes  'antiques'  he will make them  exactly how a customer wants  as well.

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## Shayan Q.

Hello sirs! The Safavid Shah Tahmasp actually had a lamb as his flag, I believe the sword was added to the lion motif by Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar, which would align the sword with your dating of 19th century--the motif became popularized by Fath Ali Shah, his nephew. Sorry I can't help with the inscriptions! I need closeups, and even then I stink at untangling calligraphy.

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## Vahtang K.

thank you David! 
About blade. It could very well be a "fake" sword but I doubt it had been recentley made for a "turist"
Why? First of all blade is very light, it had been sharpen before and actually very worned down at "working" part of the blade. This sword had been in use as one, so at least it is 19 century old. If translation would reveal what master  of this fraud tried to claim, than I can guess why and apparently when.
The blade is not Damascus or  Wootz in my opinion.
As you suggested I will ask Manuchehr to help me on translation.
Thanks again.

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## Shayan Q.

I'm obviously nowhere near as skilled as Ostad Khorasani when it comes to weapons, but if you could post close-ups of the inscriptions I'll use all my resources, which include multiple Persian and Arabic dictionaries and a father who can read calligraphy  :Wink:

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## Vahtang K.

Thank you Shayan, friend of mine( student of farsi ) have tryed that already ( with dictionaries) with no good result.
Another thing is, I cant make close ups becouse sword is in Tbilisi, Georgia. These pictures all I have. I agree shots are bad, but I hope may be for Persian scholar it would not be difficult to translate at least part of the text.
Thank you again for offer to help!
All the best!
VK

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## Vahtang K.

> Hello sirs! The Safavid Shah Tahmasp actually had a lamb as his flag, I believe the sword was added to the lion motif by Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar, which would align the sword with your dating of 19th century--the motif became popularized by Fath Ali Shah, his nephew. Sorry I can't help with the inscriptions! I need closeups, and even then I stink at untangling calligraphy.


Hello again Shayan. Pleasure to talk with you. I see you are well into Persian history.
Of course non worked as hard on wide popularization of simbol "Shir o Horshid" as Fath Ali Shah,  
I just would say that it was in use without sword and with the sword ocationaly almost during entire rule by by Sefevid dynasty. You might remember Royal Bodygard of Sevefid houshold, their commanders called Qullar Agasi used this simbol both on Battle flag and on shields of sub commanders. In time of Shah Abbas the Great, one general (christian renegade) known in history as Mourav Beg (or Morav beg,in 1640th if I remember correctly)) he commanded qullar troops that carried same simbol. But later it was banished from use by new Afgan dynasty (of MirVeice ) and forgottten until time of Nadir Shah ( 18 cent), later murdered by Agha Mohamad Khan.  
I belive it is important to remember that this synbol originates actually in art,royal and religios motives of Ancient Persia and was not just made up by the Shahs , as western readers assume sometime. 
Any chanse you are into military history of Middle East?

Respectfully,

VK

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## David Lewis Smith

I am surprised that we have not heard from him yet, he is very good at untangling script.  

I have quit a few swords from that area but none with that much writing on the blade.  Do you know if the sword itself is sharp?  and could you post the photos to  a server like photo bucket in larger format? 

on a side note, do you read and speak Russian?

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## Vahtang K.

I read in russian very extensevly but do not speak much anymore. In case you need translating from russian,georgian, I could be of help.

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## Vahtang K.

> I have quit a few swords from that area but none with that much writing on the blade.  Do you know if the sword itself is sharp?  and could you post the photos to  a server like photo bucket in larger format?


Did you mean swords from TransCaucasia or from Persia? I think this one was made in Tbilisi Georgia by Dagestani master, but for some reason so full of Persian motives. Have you notice the royal figure on the blade? Similar figure with the same crown often used element in caucasian blades, but again this blade is not of Caucasian style,shape.
There are remnants of shurppnes, I wouls say, but it is plain that blade good enaugh to achive good sharpness. but as i say it is seriosly warned down, at "working" section blade lost may be 1/8 of an inch or slightly more.

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## David Lewis Smith

Persia, however I have swords from India, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran and Saudi  Arabia.  I do not have any with either lamb or lion on them.
I have Shashka from Russia as well, but it is military issue and very plane 

I see your point (pardon the pun) about the working area of the blade.  

Here is a thought, and not one based on anything schoolrly, could the blade have been covered in gilt a sort of reverse glit, where the steel shows through he glit, and now the glit is gone, (removed)

I hope that made sence

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## Shayan Q.

Oh you're certainly right about the lion, that dates back to prehistory of course! I mean the lion _holding the sword_ The sword was added by Agha Mohammad Khan, is what I was trying to say. So if the lion has the sword, it's his era or later, confirming your thoughts on its date!

I'm very interested in Central Asia, Middle Eastern, and Caucasian military history! Iranian history has become my focus of studies, though sadly my school has a very weak Middle Eastern or Central Asian history department, so I have to do all my reading in between papers for other classes and such on my own time. :-(

Just wondering, but in an earlier post you implied you might know some martial arts using shamshir/kilij? Or did I imagine that...

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## Shayan Q.

Oh, inscription wise, you might try any friend of yours who can read the Qoran. I would bet a lot of money that's what the inscription is. Any decent Muslim scholar should be able to tell you which Surah and verses it is, too. But again, with those teeny pictures, it will be very hard...

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## David Lewis Smith

> Oh, inscription wise, you might try any friend of yours who can read the Qoran. I would bet a lot of money that's what the inscription is. Any decent Muslim scholar should be able to tell you which Surah and verses it is, too. But again, with those teeny pictures, it will be very hard...


I had forgotten to mention that earlier, so I will second the suggestion, anything that complex is probably from the Holy Quran. The trick is pulling the words out of stylized scrip, this does not look that far off the main stream of scripts so it may not be that difficult.  I doubt highly that it is not from the Holy Quran for that matter

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## Manouchehr M.

Vahtang,

Better pictures need to be posted here.  There is no way that one can read from those two dark pictures.  Do you reside in the USA or Georgia?  You should take better pictures.  They are too small and very dark.  Nothing is visible there.

Regards
Manouchehr

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## Vahtang K.

Dear Manuchehr Agha ! 
You are absolutely right about quolity of those pictures. I felt almost guilty to ask for help to translate  such unreadable material, but unfortunately these all I have. The sword is in Georgia, and I presently  reside in New York, so there is not much I can do now.
Thank you  very much for advise! I will try in this direction.

Respectfully,

Vakhtang Kiziria

PS Manuchehr Agha , I had not opportunity before, so allow me to express my gratitude as a reader and congratulate you on your book, it is splendid work,very important and long needed book.

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## Vahtang K.

> Just wondering, but in an earlier post you implied you might know some martial arts using shamshir/kilij? Or did I imagine that...


Sorry to disapoint you Shayan, but I do not know martial art using shamshir,kilij. Only few tricks. I studied mostly Georgian, Caucasian weapon and its use in combat.That I know ,though let me point out I am not a teacher.  I am better at theory :Confused:  than practise. :Embarrassment:

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## Shayan Q.

Well that's certainly more than I know! I do FMA but nothing in that is like a saber. Perhaps after Agha Khorasani establishes the School of the Iranian Sword and Shield Martial Art I'll become his first student! That's the only way I'll learn I think.

I'm glad some cultures in the area are still preserving their martial heritage so well! Kudos for that!

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## Manouchehr M.

> PS Manuchehr Agha , I had not opportunity before, so allow me to express my gratitude as a reader and congratulate you on your book, it is splendid work,very important and long needed book.


Thank you Vahtang for your kind words.  I really appreciate it.

Kind regards
Manouchehr

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## Anders Backlund

Vahtang, this is a very nice looking sword. Do you happen to have any close-up shots on the hilt? I would love a closer look.

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