# Communities > Modern-era Swords and Collecting Community > Modern Production Katanas >  New Hanwei Katanas at CAS

## J.Walton

Hey Everyone,

I just downloaded and looked over the 2007 CAS catalog preview on there site. Wow, Hanwei has just set the bar WAY up there.
Just a few of them :

The Paper Crane daisho, built on a true Tamahagane blade; Praying Mantis and Oni, two katanas featuring Bainite blades; several additions to our Performance and Classic Series; Two new Zatoichi's;

Check them out! Good looking stuff.
J.Walton

----------


## Travis Morris

BEAUTIFUL STUFF! I got so excited I called Bugei and spoke to someone from there. I know its early but, she said they are working on a tamehagane blade of their own, for next year. So thats what I am going to save up for!  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:

----------


## David Arthur

I give up... too many katana, not enough time or money........



 :Embarrassment:

----------


## Joo-Hwan Lee

OH.... MY.... GOD.......   :EEK!:

----------


## Aaron Justice

Wow, that's a lot of new stuff.

The 47 Ronin I mentioned well over a year ago is finally out. However I feel they may be reaching a bi with the tamahagane Paper Crane. Tamahagane is a nice touch, but I see no mentioning of a stone polish at all. The true aspects of tamahagane can really only be appreciated through a stone polish.

I see they also made an exact copy of the 2003 Zatoichi blade. Nice.

But what's up with that new Viking sword? a 24 inch blade? What, are they marketing to midget Vikings or something?

----------


## mikejarledge

I like the new viking sword, other than the length, but its a pretty sweet scabbard.

----------


## Jerry G.

Can someone please PM or email me the .pdf ?  Almost every website I like is on the "banned" firewall list and I can't see any of the goodies you all are chatting about!   :Mad:

----------


## mikejarledge

They also see to be indicated the hutton sabre is back!!
I hope it makes it accross the pond to us in the states.

KOA better get it for us.

----------


## J.Walton

Travis,

Wow, a tamahagane blade possibly from Bugei would be SWEET! :EEK!:   :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:   I just got a Samurai katana from them in March and it pretty much exceeded my expectations in every way. A superb blade. I'm planning a detailed review of the katana. The newer Bugei's have much more curvature in the tsuka now and flow much better. 

I would be all over that kind of Bugei! 

J.Walton

----------


## R. Hill

> Can someone please PM or email me the .pdf ?  Almost every website I like is on the "banned" firewall list and I can't see any of the goodies you all are chatting about!



 Do want the url or the whole document (128 pages) as an attachment?

----------


## Timo Qvintus

Link: http://www.casiberia.com/upload/CAS2007-RC3.pdf

(it's too big to attach, >7MB)

EDIT: It seems that it's Hanwei's own "tamahagane", not Japanese? And anyway, the daito is $3199 and wak $1899 MSRP.. even if they are very detailed and all but damn, that's a LOT of money. In comparison, L6 Bainite daito is only $1799 MSRP.

Oh yes, and the Practical katana has a removable tsuka, according to this. Finally.

----------


## Spencer Schehr

My question is, is it "real" tamahagane? Blades being made in tamahagane is being thrown out there alot lately and for it to be "real" tamahagane, the steel has to be from and smelt in Japan if I'm not mistaken. Im starting to think that tamahagane is starting to become the new "battle ready" catch phrase...or word.

----------


## Brett Bandy

I haven't yet looked through the new items, but I am currently downloading the catalog to view them.  I would imagine their "tamahagane" sword is similar to the Daimyo line from Dynasty Forge that it is actually made of "oroshigane" since it is a mixed iron _like_ tamahagane but not actually made in a certified Japanese smelter...?

----------


## J.Walton

There was a really good article by Antonio Cejunior where he reviewed Dynasty Forges Tamahagne. The article can be found here:
http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/df...ganereview.htm

Just a small quote from that article:



> The Tamahagane Line - a brief historical approach to the roots.
> I will start with the tamahagane line only to state that it is interesting to note that some pseudo-purists who just focus on Japanese swords, tend to think that the smelting technique is entirely Japanese, hence questioning that the Chinese iron obtained by smelting is not tamahagane or oroshigane.
> 
> Firstly it is important to say that the Chinese understood, around the time of the Han Dynasty (206 BC - 220 AD), that iron could not be melted like bronze and that the temperature for melting bronze and pouring it into molds was around 1.000 degrees Celsius while iron required over 1.500 Celsius to melt. Yet melting iron and pouring it into molds the way it was done with bronze did not bring any advantage as the iron would be brittle.
> 
> It is therefore implied that the Chinese, by that time, had already mastered the art of smelting, and that the discovery of the forging process took place not too long after the brittleness of molten iron proved a failure.
> But it is from failure that success is often founded, and therefore, soon the Chinese smiths understood forging, the forge with bellows, the need for carbon and quenching. With this knowledge in hand the swords begun to be longer and longer, contrary to their shorter bronze ancestors.
> 
> Therefore it is highly questionable that someone can state that the product of iron smelting is purely Japanese. It is just a historical matter, nothing more, as it is well known that the import of Chinese swords as well as the migration of some Chinese smiths gave birth to the art of sword making in Japan.
> ...


Kind Regards,
J.Walton

----------


## Min Lee

The catalog mentions Paul Chen's son studying under Yoshindo Yashihara... that's tight.

Yep, looking forward to seeing the Bugei's version with tamahagane.

Good stuff.

----------


## Ian Alexander

The Oni looks really nice.

----------


## Travis Morris

> Oh yes, and the Practical katana has a removable tsuka, according to this. Finally.



I never "quoted" before, I hope this works. 

Timo,

I do not think the classic practical has a removeable tsuka. Only the performance series. I have been up and down this pdf and it only mentions the tsuka in the performance series.

----------


## B.Blackwell

Sorry to take this thread off topic but I was trying to read the catalog to no avail. Is anyone else having problems reading PDF's nowadays?? I try to scroll and the screen just gets all F#$%ed up! Seems the change to Internet explorer 7 caused this. not sure though?

Blackwell

----------


## Timo Qvintus

> I do not think the classic practical has a removeable tsuka. Only the performance series. I have been up and down this pdf and it only mentions the tsuka in the performance series.


Bugger. I knew it was too good to be true.  :Wink:

----------


## Timo Qvintus

> Sorry to take this thread off topic but I was trying to read the catalog to no avail. Is anyone else having problems reading PDF's nowadays?? I try to scroll and the screen just gets all F#$%ed up! Seems the change to Internet explorer 7 caused this. not sure though?
> 
> Blackwell


It's a big file, try downloading it and reading it from your hard disk.

----------


## Jeff Hagen

> Sorry to take this thread off topic but I was trying to read the catalog to no avail. Is anyone else having problems reading PDF's nowadays?? I try to scroll and the screen just gets all F#$%ed up! Seems the change to Internet explorer 7 caused this. not sure though?
> 
> Blackwell


I'm not having any trouble on my Mac.

Try a pdf reader that is not made by Adobe, they have been having issues recently...

Try this open source windows PDF reader

----------


## Tim Westover

> I'm not having any trouble on my Mac.



You Mac snob!  Oh wait!  I'm one too! :Big Grin:  

Nice catalogue!  Too bad my budget only has room for maybe a iaito this year.

I thought tamahagane means only Japanese smelted steel.  Maybe they can call it tatara steel?

Also their tamahagane daito is $3200?  For just another grand you could get a newly made Nihonto, but without being mounted, you would get lots of fingerprints during shipping. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Jerry G.

> The Oni looks really nice.


No lie.  The shobu L6 looked nice, too, but I prefer shinogis.  Aesthetically, the Tori Elite is my favorite but heck, for just a _few_ more bills at that point, why not just save up for the Oni?   :Smilie:

----------


## J. Bouthner

I think I need to take a cold shower now  :Big Grin:

----------


## Keith Larman

FWIW.

Tamahagane refers to the results of a tatara operated traditionally in the Japanese style. The introduction of an "official" tatara run by the NBTHK is a fairly recent phenomena. 

But If someone decides it isn't "real" tamahagane because it isn't made in Japan, well, that's basically semantics at that point. The reality is that Mr. Chen has decided to experiment with building his own tatara to create special steel for a few of his sword lines. And he has had some very good input on how to go about those things. This isn't something new for them, just something new to the market. R&D has been ongoing for quite some time.

The reality is that the stuff isn't "industrial" steel. But smelted specifically for this purpose in a traditional fashion. Call it whatever you'd like -- it doesn't change what it is.

----------


## Keith Larman

> The catalog mentions Paul Chen's son studying under Yoshindo Yashihara... that's tight.
> 
> Yep, looking forward to seeing the Bugei's version with tamahagane.
> 
> Good stuff.


Me too, especially since I designed it...  :Wink: 

And Yoshindo's influence is very evident in the new tamahagane blades.

----------


## Ron Salter

WOW, some Very nice gear there! The prices are getting up there too,but still cheaper than the full custom route.
I'll be very interested to read the reports when they get into our eager hands.

----------


## David Stokes

im lovin the Ronin...

----------


## Timo Qvintus

> Me too, especially since I designed it... 
> 
> And Yoshindo's influence is very evident in the new tamahagane blades.


Ooh.. do you know whether they're stone polished or not?

----------


## J.Walton

> Originally Posted by Keith Larman  View Post
> Me too, especially since I designed it...
> 
> And Yoshindo's influence is very evident in the new tamahagane blades.


Hi Keith,

This sounds so promising and exciting! I personally think this will really be why the new blades available from Paul Chen and Bugei will be hard to beat for a production katana. Sure there are many blades available from many manufactures, but what are their understanding of the Art of the Japanese Sword?

To me, having Ron Chen working on new katanas is going to be a very exciting time for the production market. Having apprenticed with a Japanese Smith really adds a ton of creditability to their products in my eyes.

Thanks for adding to the thread, I'm really looking forward to this next product!

Kind Regards,
J.Walton

----------


## B.Blackwell

> I think I need to take a cold shower now


Yeah me too......... :drool:  !

Just when I had told myself I was done buying for this year, Mr.Chen drops this one in my lap.....

Blackwell

----------


## Jennifer Yabut

Wow...Paul Chen's new swords look REALLY nice.   :Cool:   I kinda wish I was a little taller, so that I would have a legit reason to acquire a L6 for practice.  Not that I have the money anyway...  :drool:

----------


## R. Hill

> Me too, especially since I designed it... 
> 
> And Yoshindo's influence is very evident in the new tamahagane blades.



 FWIW: Yoshihara work.

----------


## J. Freeman

OH
MY
GOD

This stuff just blew my mind. I would never have normally believed some of that new high range stuff had come out of Hanwei 

So, yes, I'll be having that one, that one, those two...

In my dreams :P

----------


## G. Allen

This question has probably already been answered, but I couldn't find a decent discussion on it so here goes :

Whats the "big deal"  on Tamahagane ?  isn't L-6  better steel in every way-department ??   

Maybe when you have some time you could give a little "eddification"   on the differences, abuse tolerances of the two....etc  ....    just curious ...  Thanks.

----------


## Aaron Justice

> This question has probably already been answered, but I couldn't find a decent discussion on it so here goes :
> 
> Whats the "big deal"  on Tamahagane ?  isn't L-6  better steel in every way-department ??   
> 
> Maybe when you have some time you could give a little "eddification"   on the differences, abuse tolerances of the two....etc  ....    just curious ...  Thanks.


It's just traditional. That's probably the most it has going for it because of the high price range, the work that needs to be done to it, and the fact that our modern steels are superior in almost every way. But owning a tamahagane blade does make it much more inherently valuable than a modern steel. I know if given the choice between a high grade custom L6 and a tamahagane shinsakuto, I would probably choose the latter instantly.

----------


## Tom Lim

If these guys are going to be in Atlanta, they are going to be worth stopping by to take a look.

----------


## Keith Larman

Guys, I really can't talk about the new stuff yet as most of it is not officially released yet. I know Paul Chen and James Williams are usually at the Atlanta Blade Show. You might want to stop by the booth and ask some specific questions. You never know what they might show you...

----------


## Min Lee

> FWIW: Yoshihara work.


Good Gawd!!!  :EEK!:   :EEK!:   :EEK!:  

why do I have to be poor!!!  :Mad:  

I think I remember seeing a pic of that tanto from a show awhile back...(display at Yoshihara booth) lovely... just lovely... 

Put me in your will would ya?  :Big Grin:

----------


## KevinT

> This question has probably already been answered, but I couldn't find a decent discussion on it so here goes :
> 
> Whats the "big deal"  on Tamahagane ?  isn't L-6  better steel in every way-department ??   
> 
> Maybe when you have some time you could give a little "eddification"   on the differences, abuse tolerances of the two....etc  ....    just curious ...  Thanks.


Looking at the numbers from the battlefield there is a tremendous difference. Untold thousands have fallen to tamahagane edge vs. zero for L6.


edit to supply an interesting thread:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...ght=tamahagane

----------


## Clyde H.

> Guys, I really can't talk about the new stuff yet as most of it is not officially released yet. I know Paul Chen and James Williams are usually at the Atlanta Blade Show. You might want to stop by the booth and ask some specific questions. You never know what they might show you...


Yep, I talked to CAS and they are taking pre-orders on the new stuff.  It should be in August.

But I did put the new stuff on our site. :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:

----------


## David Stokes

L6 bainite?!?!?!!?!?

wait....... i thought Howard had a monopoly on this....... now its being made in PRODUCTION?

id be interested to see how one of these held up compared to one of Howards

----------


## Tom Lim

> im lovin the Ronin...


Yeah David, that Ronin is looking good. i haven't been into production peices for some time, but they are getting very nice.

----------


## Min Lee

> L6 bainite?!?!?!!?!?
> 
> wait....... i thought Howard had a monopoly on this....... now its being made in PRODUCTION?
> 
> id be interested to see how one of these held up compared to one of Howards


It's nothing new. MAS supposidly has L6 bainite blades too that they released last year or so.

I've been hearing that Paul Chen was working on it for few years now. I guess it's finally here.

Nothing is proven however.

If it is infact an L6 Bainite(bainite body/martinsite edge), I for one welcome it.
I could get one for little money and use it as a beater while keeping my HC prestine. Or atleast put less ware on it.

Howard's waiting list won't shorten by one day because of it.

Apples and oranges.

----------


## KevinT

> L6 bainite?!?!?!!?!?
> 
> wait....... i thought Howard had a monopoly on this....... now its being made in PRODUCTION?
> 
> id be interested to see how one of these held up compared to one of Howards


a+b+c=c+b+a.

It's only thermocoupled, digitially controlled science. The magic is in the omimi mei. Without that, L6banite is just another tough ass sword that gets dull a little quicker than some other tough ass swords :Big Grin:

----------


## Min Lee

...................

----------


## Joo-Hwan Lee

Metallurgically, there probably is not any significant difference between a production L6 and HC's L6.  This shouldn't be so difficult to accept.  

Of course, we all know that there is more to what makes a good sword than just tough steel... that the real differences are in attention to things like balance, taper, geometry, etc.; and the skill/attention of the polisher who brings out those intentions.

No one here knows yet what the Hanwei L6 will actually be like to hold and use.  And probably no one is under any delusions either that they will be on par with a blade by HC polished by someone like Mr. Larman or DeMesa. 

-Edit to add-

Re. Toughness of production L6, see this clip from MAS:  http://www.martialartswords.com/vide...%20cutting.wmv

----------


## Min Lee

You are right. Maybe too much coffe this morning.  sorry.   :Big Grin:  

After posting and re-reading my post, I've decided to erase it.

It will be interesting times in months to come for sure.

----------


## J. Freeman

> Looking at the numbers from the battlefield there is a tremendous difference. Untold thousands have fallen to tamahagane edge vs. zero for L6.


But one day we'll change all that....  :Big Grin:

----------


## KevinT

Hi Min, I quoted your post, since you wanted to delete it, I'll edit the body of my post as well, which was the same as Joo-Hwan's only different :Smilie:  
I wonder if Omimi didnt do a little consulting on this .

If you think i believe tamahagane is junk you dont know me very well.

The magic is in the mei :Smilie:

----------


## B.Pogue

> If these guys are going to be in Atlanta, they are going to be worth stopping by to take a look.


We'll be at the Blade Show in Altanta, Paul and Ron included.

Blake

----------


## Min Lee

> Hi Min,
> I always get the sense that people hear what they want to hear when they read.
> 
> If you think i believe tamahagane is junk you dont know me very well.
> 
> The magic is in the mei



Hi Kevin.

I didn't say you think tamahagane is junk.   :Wink:

----------


## Michael Grisinger

Does anyone have experience with or an opinion on their Torino rapier (SH2204)?  I see they have a left-handed version now which intrigues me.

----------


## Mat Rous

Still no blades longer than 29"  though.  :Mad:

----------


## J. Freeman

> Still no blades longer than 29"  though.


What about the Tiger? I know it's not new...

I'm a tall guy but I've never had trouble adapting technique to suit shorter blade lengths. Indeed, I prefer to have something at least 0.05 shaku shorter than what I apparently should be having as I have been cursed with lanky arms...  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## R. Hill

> Good Gawd!!!    
> 
> why do I have to be poor!!!  
> 
> I think I remember seeing a pic of that tanto from a show awhile back...(display at Yoshihara booth) lovely... just lovely...


 Thank you. I have had the tanto for about 9 years and the daisho for 7. I have koshirae for the daisho but not the tanto. The furnishings are simple but functional in steel, wood and leather.




> Put me in your will would ya?


  :Big Grin:  
I picture the lawyer and others being puzzled as he reads off your name when my you and my heirs are gathered in his office like on TV.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Mat Rous

> What about the Tiger? I know it's not new...
> 
> I'm a tall guy but I've never had trouble adapting technique to suit shorter blade lengths. Indeed, I prefer to have something at least 0.05 shaku shorter than what I apparently should be having as I have been cursed with lanky arms...


I just like my Shinken the same length as my Iaito.

----------


## M.K. Ridgeway

HOLY GOSH WOW!!

 How am I just seeing this now? 

 Paul Chen, and Hanwei forge have just clinched their complete dominance of the production katana world!!!

 Seems some of the newer swords are moving into custom territory.

 I see an Oni and Tori XL in my future... and hopefully a paper crane...

 Simply stunning!!

----------


## J. Freeman

A paper crane daisho shall some day be mine... =D

And I was just about to throw in the towel & become a nihonto snob! xD

----------


## Jerry G.

...I have found a new tanto to lust after.   :smooch:

----------


## Aaron Justice

Folded L6?



The L6 listings don't mention folded steel at all, but I wonder if they are doing it judging from this picture. If they do fold the new L6 blades, I just may be a little more interested in this one...

----------


## Keith Larman

> Folded L6?
> 
> <SNIP>
> 
> The L6 listings don't mention folded steel at all, but I wonder if they are doing it judging from this picture. If they do fold the new L6 blades, I just may be a little more interested in this one...



Out of curiosity... Why would that be a good thing?

----------


## Eric L.

I have to admit, these new swords are a very exciting addition to the production market!  I love the look of the L6/Bainite Praying Mantis sword.  Can't wait to read some first hand reactions to it once people start getting them.

----------


## Aaron Justice

> Out of curiosity... Why would that be a good thing?


Just a cost/quality/options type ratio. Knowing it is folded suggests there was a lot more work put into the blade than one just forged out of barstock steel. I've always been interested in this blade, but if it is indeed folded and this is not just a product of alloy banding or the like, it would just be a nice extra included. Like getting leather seats when you expected cloth (oh great, another car comparison).

----------


## Keith Larman

What is the point of the bainite body if the welds from folding essentially create structural flaws in the bainite?

----------


## Aaron Justice

> What is the point of the bainite body if the welds from folding essentially create structural flaws in the bainite?


How much stength loss are we talking about here? I'm not a metallurgist, and whether or not the blade is made of L6 is not my interest point in the blade. But I do know other smiths have forge folded L6, like Rick Barret.

http://www.liveblade.com/customsword/forgedL6.html

It's not bainite of course, but this could have just been an issue the Hanwei smiths overlooked.

Second, if it is hada and not allow banding, then the grain is much tighter than anything I have seen on any of the other Hanwei models. Perhaps they did consider the possiblility of weakness in the welds and decided to fold the blade several more times to get the hada as tight as possible.

And last, this could even be just a prototype, maybe it's even not L6, it was folded on accident, who knows. the writers at Cas Iberia haven't always had the best information (though they are leagues better than Windlass).

For me though, I like the black saya with black ito and same, the silver fittings, the koshirae, and if it isn't a mistake, the saya seems to even have a slow, gradual fade into a very dark silver.

----------


## Keith Larman

L6 isn't magic -- it's just steel. Folding it isn't magic, it's just folding. The real "added value" aspect of the production L6 blades is the whole bainite deal. So the performance issue is primary here. And if the entire point is to get a "hyper" performance blade there is no reason to fold it. At best it will be *almost* as strong as it could have been. 2 steps forward, one step back... 

Folding L6 then doing bainite with it strikes me like whipping up a chocolate tuna fish sundae. Each is fine on its own but together they're going in different directions.

To each his own I suppose.

And Rick's blade is simply a folded L6 blade with a traditional heat treat. I think its great. Very cool.

And who knows if they are folded or not. I've seen prototypes of various new blades, but not the L6. So I really can't comment anyway.

----------


## Jamison L. Morin

Just for the sake of argument; might it actually be folded L6 on the outside, but with a core of untouched steel.

----------


## Timo Qvintus

Is it just me or does the Oni saya look like it has rattan on it? Not a big fan of the stuff, but the L6 PC Oni looks like a damn nice one. Black same, two mekugi, L6 blade, one DAMN cool tsuba.. and I hope Aaron is right about the "fade to silver" thing.




> Just for the sake of argument; might it actually be folded L6 on the outside, but with a core of untouched steel.


Folded AND laminated L6??? Now that would be something. But at this price I don't think so..

----------


## Aaron Justice

> Is it just me or does the Oni saya look like it has rattan on it? Not a big fan of the stuff, but the L6 PC Oni looks like a damn nice one. Black same, two mekugi, L6 blade, one DAMN cool tsuba.. and I hope Aaron is right about the "fade to silver" thing.
> 
> 
> 
> Folded AND laminated L6??? Now that would be something. But at this price I don't think so..


Actually it looks "ribbed" like the Kami Katana saya.

----------


## Aaron Justice

Yes, we all know folding steel will actually weaken modern alloys. But folded L6 steel with a bainite edge would still more than likely be more durable than Paul Chen's other swedish steel martinsite edged blades, even if folded L6 doesn't live up to its full potential.

In the end I doubt they are folded because folding is never mentioned in the product description. More than likely I will be able to check sometime soon because a Cutlery store near my house sells Paul Chen blades before they are widely available. They had the Momo no Saru blades less than a week after they were announced.






> L6 isn't magic -- it's just steel. Folding it isn't magic, it's just folding. The real "added value" aspect of the production L6 blades is the whole bainite deal. So the performance issue is primary here. And if the entire point is to get a "hyper" performance blade there is no reason to fold it. At best it will be *almost* as strong as it could have been. 2 steps forward, one step back... 
> 
> Folding L6 then doing bainite with it strikes me like whipping up a chocolate tuna fish sundae. Each is fine on its own but together they're going in different directions.
> 
> To each his own I suppose.
> 
> And Rick's blade is simply a folded L6 blade with a traditional heat treat. I think its great. Very cool.
> 
> And who knows if they are folded or not. I've seen prototypes of various new blades, but not the L6. So I really can't comment anyway.

----------


## Keith Larman

> Yes, we all know folding steel will actually weaken modern alloys. But folded L6 steel with a *bainite edge* would still more than likely be more durable than Paul Chen's other swedish steel martinsite edged blades, even if folded L6 doesn't live up to its full potential...


I believe the whole point is to have a bainite body and a martensitic edge. Otherwise there would be no hamon at all -- just a pure bainite body. 


But it is all idle speculation until they arrive.

----------


## Jamison L. Morin

> Is it just me or does the Oni saya look like it has rattan on it? Not a big fan of the stuff, but the L6 PC Oni looks like a damn nice one. Black same, two mekugi, L6 blade, one DAMN cool tsuba.. and I hope Aaron is right about the "fade to silver" thing.
> 
> 
> 
> Folded AND laminated L6??? Now that would be something. But at this price I don't think so..


Please take another look at my post. Folded L6 on the outside (laminating) and an untouched (unfolded) core of L6. So, basically san mai construction.

----------


## Erik Tracy

> Folded L6?


Aaron,
If this is the production version of what I saw at last year's West Coast Taikai - it is *not* folded - but an 'artifact' of whatever heat treat is being used.  It looks folded but I was told for the one I examined it is not folded.

Things could have changed between now and then...ymmv.

fwiw...

----------


## Aaron Justice

> Aaron,
> If this is the production version of what I saw at last year's West Coast Taikai - it is *not* folded - but an 'artifact' of whatever heat treat is being used.  It looks folded but I was told for the one I examined it is not folded.
> 
> Things could have changed between now and then...ymmv.
> 
> fwiw...


Was it fully mounted like it is pictured here? Because I'd like to know if this fade into dark silver saya is actually what they are doing rather than just being a lighting effect.

----------


## B.Pogue

> And last, this could even be just a prototype, maybe it's even not L6, it was folded on accident, who knows. the writers at Cas Iberia haven't always had the best information (though they are leagues better than Windlass).


Aaron, To answer yours and others questions...

- the L6 blades (Oni and Mantis) are not folded, the pattern is a product of the heat treat. Someone mentioned alloy banding, I don't know enough to say whether this is the corect term... 

- the saya is flat black with carved ribs like the kami, no rattan.

BTW, What extra information would you like to see coming from CAS? I'd like to think we've been doing a better job of relaying accurate information, however we also know there's plenty of room for improvement!

Blake

----------


## B.Pogue

I attached a picture of the menuki and kurikata detail (from a prototype saya without ribbing) I thought you guys might like. Hope it works!

Blake

----------


## David Arthur

That's cool!  :Cool: 



I still want a Tori katana. But... all I can find from places I usually look to for good prices either don't have them at all, or only have the Tori XL and XL light. Isn't there a regular one? Why is it so rare...

----------


## B.Pogue

> I still want a Tori katana. ... Isn't there a regular one? Why is it so rare...


Hello David, We have the regular (SH6007KFE) Tori Katana in stock, there's no reason your favorite retailer can't order it from us for you...

Blake

----------


## Aaron Justice

> BTW, What extra information would you like to see coming from CAS? I'd like to think we've been doing a better job of relaying accurate information, however we also know there's plenty of room for improvement!
> 
> Blake


It's not so much extra information, but there were certain listings sometimes that confused which pieces carried real leather, fake leather, fake rayskin, so on. Most of it seems to be fixed now, but I was mainly commenting that from time to time we do have posts regarding certain characteristics of Paul Chen blades which could only be answered by people who owned the blades.

That said the vast majority of the information is fine, unlike Museum Replicas which often times presents awkward or downright incorrect information on some of their products.

----------


## Timo Qvintus

L6 Oni looks like a killer!  :drool:

----------


## Andrew W. Priestley

> It's not so much extra information, but there were certain listings sometimes that confused which pieces carried real leather, fake leather, fake rayskin, so on. Most of it seems to be fixed now, but I was mainly commenting that from time to time we do have posts regarding certain characteristics of Paul Chen blades which could only be answered by people who owned the blades.
> 
> That said the vast majority of the information is fine, unlike Museum Replicas which often times presents awkward or downright incorrect information on some of their products.



What I'd love to see cleared up is the whole "Differential Tempering" thing.  It ain't differential tempering, it's differential hardening and those are two very different things.  As the biggest name in this business, CAS has the opportunity to set this one thing straight.

----------


## David Stokes

i for one am liking the koshirae of the "tea culture" katana......

also the "battle wrap" is nice.....

----------


## David Arthur

I like the 3 monkeys and Paper Crane a lot. (and those new sabers...)


Mr. Pogue, this might be a silly question and I'm sure others here will probably snicker at it, but do you know if there are any plans in the future to release more ninjato? Traditional or not, I would love to have a folded ninjato with the same attention that some of the samurai blades have gotten.

----------


## B.Pogue

> What I'd love to see cleared up is the whole "Differential Tempering" thing.  It ain't differential tempering, it's differential hardening and those are two very different things.  ...


Thanks for this Andrew, we'll make the change.

David Arthur: I'll run your idea of a higher quality Ninjato by our product guys. Anything other than a folded blade you'd like to see?

Aaron: We've made several internal changes that should clear up any misinformation in the future. Hopefully it will no longer be an issue!

Thanks,
Blake

----------


## J.Walton

Hi Blake,

I sent you a PM on more detail about a "shinobi" styled katana.

Kind Regards,
J. Walton

----------


## Joo-Hwan Lee

> Thanks for this Andrew, we'll make the change.
> 
> David Arthur: I'll run your idea of a higher quality Ninjato by our product guys. Anything other than a folded blade you'd like to see?
> 
> Aaron: We've made several internal changes that should clear up any misinformation in the future. Hopefully it will no longer be an issue!
> 
> Thanks,
> Blake


Well, since you're asking for feedback...  I think many people would benefit from other basic info. such as: respective blade width/thickness at habaki and yokote and, of course, blade curvature (sori).  I hope that's not asking too much.   :Smilie: 

Also --though I can't speak for anyone else-- I am positively sick to death of the stenciled-looking notare hamon....  The latest gen. of practical katanas (from the "performance series") no longer features the suguha hamon of earlier gen. -- which is really unfortunate considering how classy a well-done suguha hamon looks (in my opinion).  And for some reason, the latest gen. of swords also seem to feature much thinner hamon than before...  :Frown:   Certain blades like the Bushido series feature more robust and irregular hamon; which really adds to the visual distinctiveness of each individual sword.  I wish we would see more blades like that instead of the so very tired and so very, very boring "generic" look of production notare.

Lastly... while I'm just as excited as the next guy about some these new releases, I'm cautiously waiting to see if Hanwei has *FINALLY* decided to do something about awkward nakago and tsuka angles in relation to the rest of the blade's curvature....

----------


## J.Walton

Well for what its worth in regards to a Shinobi styled katana. This is part what I sent him in a PM. If he needed more detailed info, I could provide that as well.  :Big Grin:  




> Unfortunately there isn't much selection on the market for a blade that reflects spec for our Togakure Ryu. Which is basically a wakazashi 20"-21" mounted in katana koshirae, a "normal" 11"-12" tsuka and a normal length katana saya. The whole straight blade swords are pure Hollywood fabrication. Most people don't know that a lot of Ninja in Japanese history were also Samurai not simple peasants as most think. I think with this "back story in history" you could have a interesting "side story" of the Samurai in your lineup of product.
> 
> Just in case you were unaware there are 3 world wide organizations that teach Togakure Ryu. The current Soke is Massaki Hatsumi- Bujinkan.
> 
> 1-Bujinkan    www.bujinkan.com
> 2-Genbukan  www.genbukan.com
> 3.Jinenkan  www.jinenkan.com


Kind Regards,
J.Walton

----------


## Mat Rous

> Lastly... while I'm just as excited as the next guy about some these new releases, I'm cautiously waiting to see if Hanwei has *FINALLY* decided to do something about awkward nakago and tsuka angles in relation to the rest of the blade's curvature....


Ditto!

Also, the position of the kurigata is usually too far down the saya. 

I like the new blades but are there any plans to make longer ones in the 
31-32" nagasa range but without the long tsukas?

----------


## Joo-Hwan Lee

> Also, the position of the kurigata is usually too far down the saya.


Most of the new gen. seem to have much better placement of kurikata compared to the older gen.  Then again, the forged "Tea Culture" features the kind of placement you mention... which suggests to me that they might possibly be trying to sell off some older blades with different koshirae.  But I'm just speculating~

As for length, I wish there were some swords in 27.5'' range....

----------


## B.Pogue

> Well, since you're asking for feedback...  I think many people would benefit from other basic info. such as: respective blade width/thickness at habaki and yokote and, of course, blade curvature (sori).  I hope that's not asking too much.  
> 
> Also --though I can't speak for anyone else-- I am positively sick to death of the stenciled-looking notare hamon....  The latest gen. of practical katanas (from the "performance series") no longer features the suguha hamon of earlier gen. -- which is really unfortunate considering how classy a well-done suguha hamon looks (in my opinion).  And for some reason, the latest gen. of swords also seem to feature much thinner hamon than before...   Certain blades like the Bushido series feature more robust and irregular hamon; which really adds to the visual distinctiveness of each individual sword.  I wish we would see more blades like that instead of the so very tired and so very, very boring "generic" look of production notare.
> 
> Lastly... while I'm just as excited as the next guy about some these new releases, I'm cautiously waiting to see if Hanwei has *FINALLY* decided to do something about awkward nakago and tsuka angles in relation to the rest of the blade's curvature....


Hello Joo-Hwan, Thank you for your comments.

Updating our specifications is part of a summer project I have planned.

I too wish the suguha hamon had stayed. We are researching using other hamon styles on future blades, starting with the Paper Crane.

I'll run the nakago issue by our product guys. The Performance Series stuff should be much better in this regard, though I have not handled a recent blade.

Kurikata placement is something else the Performance Series pieces were to address. I'll look into the Tea Culture and 3 Monkey Saya's. Oh, and they certainly aren't meant to get rid of old blades  :Wink: 

Blake

----------


## David Arthur

"The whole straight blade swords are pure Hollywood fabrication"


 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):   Boy I never expected to hear that on these forums.

Again, they exist today and have a name today. The year is 2007, not ancient Japan. If you want 100% traditional stuff, then that's admirable - don't buy a ninjato. :Smilie:  




> I'll run your idea of a higher quality Ninjato by our product guys. Anything other than a folded blade you'd like to see?


I would really appreciate that!  :Smilie:  
I suppose I am thinking of something as mouth watering and elegant as the rest of the folded line, but more closely resembling the Tori in terms of looking functional. IE: ribbed saya, neutral colors. I might be getting ahead of myself here, but on the topic of dimensions, I for one, would like a slightly longer blade than previous ninjato... longer kissaki... silver habaki... polished black fittings... I also like the endcaps like the Kami and Orchid.
I could talk more, but don't want to sound too much like a kid on Santa's lap before Christmas.  :Big Grin:  

I'll post a drawing as soon as I can get my dumb scanner working.  :Gag:  

Thank you for your attention Mr. Pogue.

----------


## J.Walton

Hi David,

My comment wasn't in spite towards the "ninjato". I was making the point to also perhaps consider including the "shinobi" style katana represented in the the three organizations I mentioned. 

Some people like the newer version ninjato like yourself, and thats fine. Others want the style katana particular to our Ryu we train in. That's all.  :Smilie:  

Kind Regards,
J.Walton

----------


## Travis Morris

Mr.Pogue,

I have a question. Why can't you double peg the "classic series" practical katana and stop using the epoxy? I am sure if you did that, it would boost sales for beginners. I know most dojo will not allow a practical until the tsuka has been modified for maintenance. Just a thought. Thanks! Also, can you start making swords in different styles, not just shinogi-zukuri. I personally would like to see more hira-zukuri and shobu-zukuri katana. Thank you!



Travis Morris

----------


## Joo-Hwan Lee

-Nevermind-

----------


## Travis Morris

> -Nevermind-


Nevermind as well, Not nevermind about my question to Mr. Pogue

----------


## Andrew W. Priestley

> Mr.Pogue,
> 
> I have a question. Why can't you double peg the "classic series" practical katana and stop using the epoxy? I am sure if you did that, it would boost sales for beginners. I know most dojo will not allow a practical until the tsuka has been modified for maintenance. Just a thought. Thanks! Also, can you start making swords in different styles, not just shinogi-zukuri. I personally would like to see more hira-zukuri and shobu-zukuri katana. Thank you!
> 
> Travis Morris


The Practical Katana also comes in a performance series katana, not the XL or the XL Light, but a standard blade.  It is double pegged and dismountable. All you have to do is look.  It can be purchased from Nihonzashi at a good price.

----------


## David Arthur

> Hi David,
> 
> My comment wasn't in spite towards the "ninjato". I was making the point to also perhaps consider including the "shinobi" style katana represented in the the three organizations I mentioned. 
> 
> Some people like the newer version ninjato like yourself, and thats fine. Others want the style katana particular to our Ryu we train in. That's all.  
> 
> Kind Regards,
> J.Walton



I understand, I apologize if sounding rude, I just don't like the usual hate my beloved modern blade gets. But I would also like the traditional short, curved blades too. Variety is key. :Wink:

----------


## Travis Morris

> The Practical Katana also comes in a performance series katana, not the XL or the XL Light, but a standard blade.  It is double pegged and dismountable. All you have to do is look.  It can be purchased from Nihonzashi at a good price.


This is why I am saying CLASSIC series. The geometry on the performance series is different. More likey to chip. The classic series is better for a first timer. I know about the performance series. I own 2 of them, along with many other Hanwei/Bugei swords.

----------


## B.Pogue

> Mr.Pogue,
> 
> I have a question. Why can't you double peg the "classic series" practical katana and stop using the epoxy? I am sure if you did that, it would boost sales for beginners. I know most dojo will not allow a practical until the tsuka has been modified for maintenance. Just a thought. Thanks! Also, can you start making swords in different styles, not just shinogi-zukuri. I personally would like to see more hira-zukuri and shobu-zukuri katana. Thank you!
> 
> 
> 
> Travis Morris


Hey Travis, 

The removeable tsuka on the Classic Practical comes up quite often and is something I'll have to pass onto others (I seem to be saying that a lot  :Wink: .

I'd love us to start trying different blade styles; we do have the new Mantis in shobu-zukuri, but understandably it isn't a sword for everyone (by cost alone). It can be hard sometimes however as many people have a certain style that is *the* Japanese katana. It can be a hard thing to move away from...

Thank you for the comments.

Blake

----------


## JoeT

Looking for a Wak to match the Tori set... The Three Monkey Wak is close, but...

Wonder if it's possible to buy the Tori tsuka-ito, menuki, tsuba, and kashira so I could 'convert' the three monkey blade and tsuka myself. The saya won't match; I'd live with that.

Or maybe I'll wait till the 2008 catalog!

joe

----------


## Jim Anestasi

Hi out there, I guess I'm still waiting for some forge to come out with a replica Dotanoki Katana as used in the Lone Wolf & Cub series. Seems no one is interested in doing it
I continue hoping that one of the major or minor forges take on the challenge. If It would be an exact replica it would sell IMHO. :Cool: 
Jim

----------


## Mats Gustavsson

That a lot of really nice stuff, i do notice however that the tsuka of the Paper Crane Katana does not look good. It can of course be just a bad picture but some of the diamonds are not good, and the ito is not even with the kashira. Something you should expect I buying a sword for 3199$. But again it could be just a bad pic.
But if you go further down the Tori Elite Katana has the ending tsuka ito knot on the wrong side. Well perhaps they just had a bad day.

----------


## Steffen Gjerding

Some really nice stuff there. One question for Keith if you would not mind. 
Why is it that all production pieces have wave hamon? Why not something a bit more interesting. Would it actually blow the prices if it hade some more interesting patterns? 

And seriously with some of those prices, why not go custom?

----------


## Aaron Justice

> That a lot of really nice stuff, i do notice however that the tsuka of the Paper Crane Katana does not look good. It can of course be just a bad picture but some of the diamonds are not good, and the ito is not even with the kashira. Something you should expect I buying a sword for 3199$. But again it could be just a bad pic.
> But if you go further down the Tori Elite Katana has the ending tsuka ito knot on the wrong side. Well perhaps they just had a bad day.



I have a tori and it does terminate on the wrong side. However it doesn't really matter a lick to me. When I asked WHY the ito had to terminate on their respective sides a while ago, I got a bunch of very harsh responses, and not a single one even explained WHY it needed to be done that way. The only one that came close is "just because they did it that way".

The biggest reason for it terminating on the omote side is that the ito is so wide it throws off the tsukamaki. If you count the diamonds in the tsukamaki, you only count about 14. In a typical 10mm wrap of the same tsuka length, I get about 18, so that probably means the ito on the tori is about 12mm wide.

----------


## Aaron Justice

> Some really nice stuff there. One question for Keith if you would not mind. 
> Why is it that all production pieces have wave hamon? Why not something a bit more interesting. Would it actually blow the prices if it hade some more interesting patterns? 
> 
> And seriously with some of those prices, why not go custom?



Only some do. It seems the majority of Paul Chen blades are switching into different styles.

My Shinto.


My bambo snake katana


It looks like most of their blades are headed this way.

As far as just getting a custom sword, in the end getting a fully mounted custom piece is ultimately more rewarding, but it's damn hard getting a custom piece in tamahagane fully mounted for less than 6 - 7000 dollars. The 3000 price tag on the Paper Crane will be around $2500 or less when it hits eBay or other respective websites, so at around 1/3rd the cost it will have some buyers for it.

----------


## Timo Qvintus

> Only some do. It seems the majority of Paul Chen blades are switching into different styles.


My Orchid's got an interesting hamon, too:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...ghlight=orchid

----------


## Steffen Gjerding

Of course it would be pricier with a tamahagane sword in full custom. But what about an ordinary (<-  as in not tamahagane) sword custom. But of course it is a matter of tradition and owning a tamahagane sword, even though it is not Japanese.     

But that’s some god damn nice swords there. The Shinto looks rally nice.

----------


## Mats Gustavsson

> I have a tori and it does terminate on the wrong side. However it doesn't really matter a lick to me. When I asked WHY the ito had to terminate on their respective sides a while ago, I got a bunch of very harsh responses, and not a single one even explained WHY it needed to be done that way. The only one that came close is "just because they did it that way".
> 
> The biggest reason for it terminating on the omote side is that the ito is so wide it throws off the tsukamaki. If you count the diamonds in the tsukamaki, you only count about 14. In a typical 10mm wrap of the same tsuka length, I get about 18, so that probably means the ito on the tori is about 12mm wide.


Well I guess the reasons for having it that way I think is that the final knot looks better, but that could be a matter of taste. 
I have heard (cant remember who) one say that when building the tsuka he makes it a little bit longer and then adjust the tsuka when he have wrap it 3/4 or something like that. I have tried that myself with good result; there is a risk of course that you mess up the ito.
Mats

----------

