# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Chinese, South-East Asia (CSEA) >  How to spot a fake

## josh stout

One of the most repeated questions on this forum is how to tell the real thing from modern fakes.  The most basic advice I give is to make sue it looks old.  Unfortunately, for some people this advice is a little vague.  Also unfortunately, a detailed primer on the signs of age would be a detailed primer in how to make counterfeits.  So here are some things to look for that are not so easy to counterfeit.  

Quality: 
A modern sword of equal quality to an old one would be just as expensive, so fakers have to cut corners.  Engraved designs will be shallow on fakes and have straight sharp edges and possibly even grind marks.  Antiques show smooth flowing curved designs with well finished edges that then show additional signs of wear with prominent features worn down over time.  Fake fittings have a flat look, both in decoration and construction.  It is much easier to make a flat form than fittings that have a puffy, sort of pleasingly plump look.  

Patina:
With age comes a layer of dark old oil, dirt, oxidation, and other signs that time has passed.  Time will affect different parts of a sword in different ways, so a perfectly even patina is always suspicious.  Iron and steel can be dark, but red oxidation is a sign of a fake or recent mistreatment.  A red tang should be dark underneath.  A good patina is hard to fake, but there are many bad attempts out there.  A stain painted on fittings will often darken protruding surfaces while leaving recesses light; this is the opposite of a true patina.  I have seen examples with obvious brush strokes and masking tape left on.  Logic and a good eye can be your guide.  

The Steel: 
Chinese blades almost uniformly have an edge formed by hardened high carbon steel, and a body of softer folded steel.  This gives several useful things to look for.  The edge will be brighter than the body and often show less corrosion.  There will often be a line of minor pitting marking the line where the steels meet.  There will be other lines of tiny pits following the folded portion.  Modern Chinese folded steel has a characteristic look that is easy to spot.  Modern Indian steel also has a characteristic look to it.  Learn to spot modern folding and you are much less likely to be fooled.  

This brings up the most useful technique.  Study the fakes.  They are easy to find on ebay selling for $.99 with $100 shipping.  Once you see several, the obvious fakes will all look the same.  Find two where one has been aged, and the other is still shiny.  These tricks will save you from at least the more obvious ways to be ripped off.

Josh

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## Kai W.

Thanks, Josh - I vote to make this a sticky!

Josh's hints can be generalized to other regions relevant to this forum (and beyond, of course).

Sometimes lamination of blades is faked with etching relatively obscure patterns on monosteel: usually you can find areas where the pattern doesn't seem to make any sense from the expected method of steel folding. Again, compare with laminations shown by genuine examples posted here and on other fora!

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## josh stout

Thanks Kai, I agree that these techniques are generally applicable.  They are nothing new to those with some experience, but they could be gold to someone just starting out.  I had to find the information scattered all over the web.

Here are some other things to note.  

How to spot composite pieces:

Just because one part of a sword is genuinely old, does not mean the whole thing is.  This is where the general techniques must be applied with more care.  Do all parts of a purported antique have a relatively similar patina in color and thickness?  Do the parts match in composition and style?  For example, a brass guard should go with a brass pommel.  If there is decoration on one, the decoration should be similar on the other.  Is the wear even between the fittings?  If a guard shows wear from handling, suspension fittings should also be worn down in a similar fashion.  Look for places where a sword might bang into things, on purpose or by accident.  These areas would show slightly more wear that the rest of a piece.  If a bit that a sword rests on or against looks like it is in better condition than the rest it is probably because it has been replaced.  

The replacement of fittings is not too difficult to spot on eBay things coming out of China, but American antique sellers will have some more convincing composite pieces.  These are ones that were probably put together in China to fool experts who did not want to look too closely.  These might include antique fittings put on a new scabbard or new fittings cast from old examples then matched with an old blade.  There is nothing wrong with this if it is acknowledged, but only a few dealers seem to spot composites like that.  Perhaps they don't look too closely.  One Chinese saber sold for millions a few years ago that showed exactly the kind of variation in wear pattern and design in the fittings that makes me suspicious.  

So the techniques outlined in my first post must be applied to every part of a sword independently, and then as a whole.  Learning how to spot logical consistency within a piece is more important than learning all the possible forms and fittings within a culture.  Knowledge of common designs will come with time, but the exceptions can be more interesting than the rules.  If one follows the techniques I have described closely, one might not always know when or where something comes from, but at least you will know it is an antique.  
Josh

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## Dan Howard

If it is being sold on ebay then it is 99.9% likely that it is a fake  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Kai W.

While there is a truth to this cliche, especially for Chinese and Japanese wannabe swords, these fakes are now showing up at all antique venues including very renowned auction houses, etc.!

OTOH, there are still lots of genuine antiques on offer (including ebay and other online sources). Thus, I wouldn't rule out any source but caveat emptor applies whenever hardearned cash is being spent.

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## Mark Bowditch

Very good advice.  Yet, and I hate to be a pessimist, this type of advice on the forums is also a lesson to the fakers on how to make better forgeries.  They do read them.

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## josh stout

Well that is why I listed things that are difficult to fake.  I don't think mentioning looking for logical inconsistencies like masking tape left on after retouching a coating of lacquer is going to help the fakers.  I would think they could figure that out and are just sloppy.  There is no way they could read that and suddenly improve.  That is because doing things in a slap dash cheaply done manner is part of their business model.  

There are indeed some secrets to telling the real thing, and I have kept them secret.  However, secrets are not as useful as having a logical mind and a good eye.
Josh

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## josh stout

Here is a good example of an eBay fake.  Notice the flat look of the fittings and the telltale pattern weld.  It has been artificially aged, and polished in a way to create an illusion of an edge plate.  Fakes like this are fun to practice on.  Try comparing this one to pictures of a genuine sword and see if you can tell the difference.  There are fakers out there with more convincing pattern welds and fittings, so try and use the other methods I have outlined to identify this one as fake without those obvious markers.  
Josh



http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...:B:WNA:US:1123

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