# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  Legal? Ethical? Auction house manipulation

## Simon R.

Within the niche of sword collecting, auction houses are given extreme leeway by consumers.  Auction houses feed this mentality, as it is in their interest.  It is very difficult to prove manipulation of the auction, but it certainly occurs; especially with so called "sealed bids", and "friends" of consignors or auction houses submitting bids onsite or online. 

I follow auction houses pretty closely over a period of years.  In my opinion, this is an example of alleged manipulation and cooperation with a consignor who is leaking fake staff and field officers swords into the market.  The auctionhouse through their description, while not saying the swords are genuine, allude to the fact that they are genuine. They do this even though they know for a fact the swords are reproductions aged to look genuine.  This is not an auction house that has the occasional sword amongst furniture, they auction alot of military items including swords.  When approached about it, they clam up and won't say anything.

I am not sure I am allowed to post their name here, so I have not; but it should be posted everywhere.

The pictures are two almost identical fakes sold about a year apart, one for around $1,000, and one for around $650 (inlc. buyer's premium).

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## Simon R.

....and this auction house wins again with another sucker for $1,500 ....


"All that evil needs for evil to succeed, is for good men to stand by and do nothing"

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## Michael Callaghan

hi, for some time I have seen a large number of fakes of all kinds at arms fair and auctions. I have spoken to a number of auctioneers this past year on some of the items they have listed. feedback from them came in a number of forms, but most times it was in the form of, well thats your view, the russians will buy it, well it looks old to me. Some auction houses sale a large number of fakes, copies what ever you wish to call them to overseas buyers. sorry to say that forums and SFI is one will not allow any open debate on this issue, the reason for that I don,t know. For me the large number of fakes in the market place is a worry, it can only lead to a down ward interest in collecting swords and military, which is bad news for us all. michael

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## Roy Shadbolt

Hi Gents,

This is indeed a worrying trend and one that is sadly unlikely to go away.  My specialty is Wilkinson Knives and I have seen a growing wave of fake Fairbairn-Sykes fighting knives.  Like the comments already made I have spoken from time to time to sellers and even ended up on the phone with one for two hours who outright flatly refused to believe either me or the details from Roberts (Wilkinson-Latham) book.  It is very disheartening especially so called reputable dealers to continue to sell such rubbish.  Perhaps our only course of action is to continue to support wonderful sites like this, share knowledge (especially with novice collectors) and do our best to point out such fakes when they surface.  

I gather from the previous  comments that it is not permitted to comment on a specific seller who sell such items (?), however I do feel that this could be something that should be considered as we move forward, name and shame I say.

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## Robert Wilkinson-Latham

Bravo Roy

I am wholeheartedly behind your suggestion. Only Name and Shame will do it as these steel hearted sellers know in most cases what they are doing. 
There is nothing so off putting for a new or novice collector than to have a more advanced collectors tell them their knife/sword etc is a modern reproduction or lets be honest a FAKE!!!

For the sake of our hobby and for historical research which remember we leave behind for the next generation, I feel as a responsible body of world wide standing, we must take a lead.

Again Bravo Roy
Robert



> Hi Gents,
> 
> This is indeed a worrying trend and one that is sadly unlikely to go away.  My specialty is Wilkinson Knives and I have seen a growing wave of fake Fairbairn-Sykes fighting knives.  Like the comments already made I have spoken from time to time to sellers and even ended up on the phone with one for two hours who outright flatly refused to believe either me or the details from Roberts (Wilkinson-Latham) book.  It is very disheartening especially so called reputable dealers to continue to sell such rubbish.  Perhaps our only course of action is to continue to support wonderful sites like this, share knowledge (especially with novice collectors) and do our best to point out such fakes when they surface.  
> 
> I gather from the previous  comments that it is not permitted to comment on a specific seller who sell such items (?), however I do feel that this could be something that should be considered as we move forward, name and shame I say.

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## Mark McMorrow

Gentlemen,

I absolutely agree that this sort of reprehensible activity has a negative impact on the collecting community.  However, there is a reason why commenting on specific sellers is problematic and it has to do with the horribly litigious nature of society these days.  

However, perhaps there is a way we can accomplish the same goal without opening the door for legal issues.  What if we focused on the object itself?  What if we created a 'Fakes, Frauds & Counterfeits' sub forum or gallery?  Perhaps it may be possible to provide limited information regarding the sale, while steering clear of potential legal hazards?  Am hoping Andre (our lawyer) checks in today for comment on this topic...  :Smilie:

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## Will Mathieson

There is the odd authentic presentation sword doctored to bring in more $$ and it works. 
The American market is vast with lots of $$ and fakers, dealers and some auctioneers are all riding the same train. 
Dirty or clean as long as it's green.
When do these items get displayed in museums as authentic? Or do they care? 
It's not just swords, but any item that has great value and is worth copying in detail.
Some of the most trusted auctioneers will sell anything. Read their disclaimers carefully, what do they guarantee? 
Some just the title or headline of the object. All descriptive text can be absolute trash.
This is how they maintain a clean concience, a detailed lawyer proof disclaimer.
I would not trust who I buy anything from, but only my own eyes. If I'm wrong I can only blame myself.
Education and handling authentic pieces is the only way.
Anyone can send an authentic sword to China and have as many copies made as they can afford to.

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## Mark McMorrow

Plus too, Will - some of the counterfeits coming out of Eastern Europe are staggeringly good.

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## Michael Callaghan

I think we are on track, is it not the point thatcounterfeits are better, more widely available on the market place that we do need to look at items in more detail. for one think lets drop the bit on this forum about showing items coming up at auctions, after all its before we buy that help is needed, not so much after. I have been on the look out for a french grenadier a cheval sabre of the imperial guard for a few years now. as many of you will know these are not cheap swords, so care as to be taken. To date I have been to paris to see one at auction there, auctionner told me it was ok, turned out to be fake, even the date on the blade 1807 was wrong, blades did not get date marked until 1810, the sword when to an overseas buyer for 5800 pounds plus fees. a second sword came out later. this time at a well known italian auction house. this sword was also fake, sold for just over 6000 euros plus fees. not so long back a dealer contacted me with a sword, also fake, he wanted 12000 euros for it. On being told that the items for sale were not right, the auction house in paris, said yes it was, even thoe i send the details of dates etc to them in french, the italian auction house did not reply at all, and the dealer said O well, some one will buy it. I was in germany last week, talking to the auctioneer, he had just come back to see a collection in belgian, all the french napoleonic swords fakes. so lets start sorthing this out and not just turning a blind eye. michael

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## Will Mathieson

Stiff fines for businesses removes profit margin from selling copies as authentic.
Unfortunately policing this would be like policing auto repair shops and used car salesmen. Some are honest , others not so.
Peoples own greed make them believe it's real if they can get it at a low price, with the chance of turning a handsome profit at some point. 
I have had more negative response pointing out deficiencies, they think you have a hidden agenda.
If they believe it's real, let them. They must learn the hard way like everyone else. It's only money.

Buy sword reference books, lots of them!

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## Michael Callaghan

sorry will, learn the hard way like everyone else ???? what total rubbish. this is not some sort of game.michael

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## Will Mathieson

I'm not making light of this at all, selling repros as authentic swords is a criminal act. 
I say "everyone else" because it will probably happen to every collector at some point in their collecting career.
Having said that, getting duped does highten ones awareness in future dealings which is a positive outcome.
Just stating the reality of collecting, with fakes in the sword collecting world and in all collecting fields. 
I understand we are passionate about our swords, I don't know a better way not be ripped off, then to educate myself as to what is real and what is not?
 I've been taken, and it's no fun, but it is part of the learning process, not to accept this will only frustrate.  
Today, buying without having it in hand has become more popular due to ease of aquiring a particular piece. 
Photos on a computer screen cannot tell the whole story of a sword and makes it easier for the fraudster.
Possibly retain a copy of your swords receipt, with a photo of the particular sword attached, have it signed by the seller or such. I would not do this for inexpensive swords, but in the $1000's?
Buyer beware will always hold true.

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## Simon R.

> Gentlemen,
> 
> I absolutely agree that this sort of reprehensible activity has a negative impact on the collecting community.  However, there is a reason why commenting on specific sellers is problematic and it has to do with the horribly litigious nature of society these days.  
> 
> However, perhaps there is a way we can accomplish the same goal without opening the door for legal issues.  What if we focused on the object itself?  What if we created a 'Fakes, Frauds & Counterfeits' sub forum or gallery?  Perhaps it may be possible to provide limited information regarding the sale, while steering clear of potential legal hazards?  Am hoping Andre (our lawyer) checks in today for comment on this topic...


I think an educational sub forum gallery for fakes, frauds and counterfeits is an excellent idea; especially if you can post items before auctions (without posting the auction house name if need be). 

Will, with all due respect, if I sold you a gold bar knowing that it was lead, I would be going to jail. I see no difference between an auctioneer (keyword) *knowingly* [/I][/I] selling fakes and the gold fraudster. The fact that I ought to know the difference between lead and gold is irrelevant when the perpetrators INTENTION is to defraud.

I have always found it disturbingly amusing that, when one sells an item at auction, the specific departments all have "experts" in their field; however, when one buys something at auction....they are not experts, but merely consignors with no real expertise. 

Reputation is everything. It takes a life time to build and seconds to destroy. A couple of publicly shamed villains would be a good deterrent to others. Are there any good investigative journalists needing a good story.  Perhaps uncovering the murky delvings of unscrupulous auction houses would make a good one? I have at least one place they could start; and well founded suspicions on several others.  Nothing like a good public story to help keep people on the straight and narrow. 

I do know one thing is certain, if "good men" (in positions of ability to do something) stand by and do nothing, evil will succeed.

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## Roy Shadbolt

Hello Mark,

I agree an appropriate sub forum would be a very good idea.  If the 'thrust' (excuse the pun) of the post is related to the item itself then there can be no complaint form the seller.  Likewise if the seller is just listed and not critiqued then that is just posting factual information.  Embarrassing for the seller (and why not) but if they have sold (or are selling) it in the first place then that is a matter of record and simply sharing the source can surely bring no reprisals. 

If this approach is taken in a gentlemanly fashion with the relevant experts simply commenting on what is incorrect with an items and provided supporting evidence, experience, picture etc etc then the facts will speak for themselves and collectors be they novice or experienced can avail themselves of the information and potentially make a more informed decision.

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## Will Mathieson

Simon, I agree fraud is wrong, but in the antiques world, items are mis identified, broken without mention of condition, cobbled together,  copies made to appear authentic, and true reproductions, just to name a few.

Policing antiques is just not feasable, a sub forum using the owners photos? I think if you were wrong in regards to authenticity of an item, and found you were hurting sales , legal action would follow. Sounds like a small vigilante group, that's what the sellers will claim. 

There will always be individuals misrepresenting items because they can and do get away with it more often than not.
Some very reputable auction houses have sold or are about to sell items that are not as described, no one knows everything about everything.
At some point the buyer has responsibility to himself, his choice to buy or not, no one forcing you. In life there are no guarantees. 
If you don't know enough about what you are buying, don't, until you feel comfortable doing so.

Advising education in the area of interest is the best policy.

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## Michael Callaghan

to a point will I am with you, but why can,t this forum allow people to post items that are coming up at auction, or for sale at dealers. no names need to be used, and just asking for view point from fellow collectors can,t be anything but that. lets get real, with the use of internet bidding auction houses are I feel starting to mislead people. A overseas bidder must relay on what the auction house writes, the pictures they show. And sad to say that a few auction houses are very poor on giving facts. And i am not talking about small houses that never see a weapon from one year to the next. I am talking about well known names. One of which starting with the italian C as in each auction a very large level of fakes in their sales. if nothing is done, then the whole idea of collecting will end. michael

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## Will Mathieson

I'm not aware of the large level of fakes though they must add up. I don't believe collecting will end, but too many fakes will change how people buy.  
Sword collectors are a small minority with little pull. Groups must organize to bring about change if we expect the law to intervene and stop these fraudulent sales, this has not seemed to happen.
One way is to boycott the auction houses responsible, how to do this effectively, get people together? 
If you could get  lists of previous buyers and inform them would be one way to go. Remove the buyers and they go out of business or more likely they start selling different items to get new clientel.
I would not expect them to see the light and become honest overnight or if ever.
The ones that specialize in arms also pass on questionable items.

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## John Hart

In addition to the good points made above, I'd worry that unscrupulous individuals might use the fakes forum to undermine the credibility of a piece, simply so they stand a better chance of acquiring it more cheaply.  I for one would not feel comfortable assigning more than say a 60% certainty level when identifying a sword I hadn't handled and inspected in person, and my area of collecting (Victorian/Edwardian British) isn't even heavily faked at the moment.  How that would be for Katanas and Confederate States weapons I have no idea!

At the end of the day there will always be a small percentage of dealers who know they have fakes but sell anyway - this was true of Chippendale furniture in the 1950s and British medals in the 1970s and I don't see why we should expect to be exempt in the current decade.

John

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## alan simpson

Hello,
       I have had two experiences lately, both fortunately ending happily. The first was a Russian sword bought without personal inspection on a whim.When it arrived it seemed too good so I sought expert advice on the forum and elsewhere which confirmed suspicions. The Auction originally said,'sorry read the conditions' but the owner when I sent a direct letter to him agreed readily to cancel the sale upon production of expert opinion. The second incident with a Third Reich hanger highlighted another problem, this is a highly ethical group who run two mixed weapons and militaria auctions a year in Australia. They have great expertise in certain areas but less in others and have to rely on external experts. In this case the hanger had been given the nod but when I later consulted a leading international expert who disagreed the sale was instantly reversed which is their strict policy. A couple of lessons, one do your homework before the auction, always inspect the goods and negotiate with the owner of the auction not the staff. Good luck.
                Alan

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## Michael Callaghan

to John Hart, sorry but no I thing your view very narrow minded. if a collector who finds an item for sale at an auction or a dealer wishs to have others have  alook at it before he spends his/her money on it. what is wrong with that. you say that a person my claim it to be fake to push the price down, how can that work when others will say it ok. What I find so very hard to understand is you all know that fellow collectors are getting ripped off by auction houses, dealers etc, yet you will do nothing to bring it to light. thats just sad, allows these people to get away it, and one reason i am stopping collecting. michael

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## John Hart

> to John Hart, sorry but no I thing your view very narrow minded. if a collector who finds an item for sale at an auction or a dealer wishs to have others have  alook at it before he spends his/her money on it. what is wrong with that. you say that a person my claim it to be fake to push the price down, how can that work when others will say it ok. What I find so very hard to understand is you all know that fellow collectors are getting ripped off by auction houses, dealers etc, yet you will do nothing to bring it to light. thats just sad, allows these people to get away it, and one reason i am stopping collecting. michael


Sorry Michael, you're misunderstanding - I was saying that I personally wouldn't be happy to participate in a fakes forum because of a) the difficulties of offering authoritative advice without actually handling the item in question and b) the dangers that the unscrupulous could deliberately sow doubt in the mind of potential bidders and thus end up affecting the final sale price for their own ends.  That's different from offering informal opinions in a general sword forum or if asked by email or PM, which I am always happy to do because it doesn't give it the stamp of an official statement of authenticity.

As to the other point, it would be great to stamp out or expose all cases where dealers deliberately sell items as genuine which they know (or suspect) to be fake, but I won't hold my breath waiting for that!

John

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## Will Mathieson

Posting upcoming swords at auction using auctioneers photos may have legal ramifications. 
What about posting purchased faked swords? You own it and can say as you please, name where you bought it and the trouble you had trying to return it. Be able to prove you bought it where you claim just incase.

There is no shame in being fooled by these guys, the product is becoming very convincing. Deciding to purchase only using sellers photos as a guide is always a risk if you accept to buy this way.
Few swords are made to deceive, most are fairly accurate reproductions as re enactors are demanding better looking swords.
Faking these by aging, re enactors also do to make them look authentic, and now they are being produced this way to meet demand.  
Auction houses all have disclaimers of some sort, I don't believe they have the time to authenticate every item sold, they tell the buyer openly it is up to them to decide.
Sometimes it may seem shady to say, "I don't know what it is, you decide" but that's not illegal. The ones that do guarantee their product should be willing to give refunds without any problem.

Most auctioneers only know what they come across many times and are definately not experts even if they hold specialized auctions.

How many have sold their used car stating they know of nothing wrong with it? And there was.

John is correct about holding breath, faked problem with swords or anything else will continue as long as human nature is what it is.

Note: I just saw two authentic swords sell for what I think was 3x their worth. Real or not does the price paid make it a crime?
Must a faked sword not be worth what someone pays for it?

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## william.m

Hmmm, I am not sure if I can state the name of an auction house that I have found a lot of fakes going up for sale. I am rather keen on naming and shaming if it does not bring legal trouble to the forum.

The auction house that I regularly visit in Oxford have been putting through a high amount of fake katanas.  They are always given generic descriptions "katana" "Japanese sword" things like that. Nobody actually bids on them who has actually viewed them in person but the bids always come in thick and fast from internet and phone bids. I always feel sorry for these people who no doubt are hugely disappointed when they receive the sword.

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## Michael Callaghan

OK, I think when a auction house places details on the internet, it becomes public rights. again I don,t see any legal action being taken on any forum that states a item is fake, or not what it says it is. arms and armour forum have been doing this very same thing for years with know come back. As to if an item is fake or not, well to answer that in many cases its just so wrong, or stated to be something it is plain to see its not. sitting on the fence just allows this to go on. I am not talking about taking legal action, or trying to change the trading laws ( they do need changing here in the UK) but just a more open debate. first off stop the bar on this site re listing auction items, and lets take it from there. the statement my william m above just proofs my point, auction houses are using the internet  for the want of a word con buyers. what have the got to fear ??? nothing. In many cases the buyers are overseas, believe in the auction houses write up, and have little knowledge.
this year i went to a very well known london auction, named after the auctioneer. they had a suit of armour which i was interested in. I have very big ears and was around when the auctioneer was saying that they knew it was wrong, and so were a number of the swords. question, if they know its wrong why are they selling it. answer 20 percent on hammer price and no redress. If you all wish to be the fools that allow this to go on with out doing anything about it, so be it. just remember in a few years time when you go to sell your collection, that the market will be full of fakes, mistrust etc. that no one will want to buy.

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## Dmitry Z~G

> just remember in a few years time when you go to sell your collection, that the market will be full of fakes, mistrust etc. that no one will want to buy.


Antiques have been faked for thousands for years. And people have been collecting originals and telling them from fakes for just as long.

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## Simon R.

> Antiques have been faked for thousands for years. And people have been collecting originals and telling them from fakes for just as long.


So this makes it okay??  Even though with modern technology and communication the number of fakes entering the market is increasing exponentially....so let's just do nothing???!!!  This is exactly the type of ...."well, this is the way it has always been" attitude that needs to adapt if you want to continue to have something worth enjoying and dealing in.  

 I am happy to see that this thread has at least generated some virulent opinion conversation.  Michael is correct.

The "right thing to do" is seldom the path of least resistance.  By making excuses condoning these practices on behalf of the very crooks which would deceive us, we are simply giving license to these #$%#$^^%&.  We are enabling and aiding the very beast that is destroying our passion (sickness some might say), hobby, and investment.  Although that might make my wife happy, it galls me!

New collectors are rightfully discouraged and afraid of entering the market, because these unscrupulous @#$$%$#^ that are eroding the industry.  In my opinion there are far more fakes entering the field of arms, than other antiques, simply because originals are relatively simple to alter or parts to manufacture given modern technology.  I would love to own a confederate sword, but simply dont have the confidence to purchase one no matter where it comes from.  

In my opinion it is ludicrous that everyone is afraid of pointing out (or simply questioning items) before people get ripped off at auction, for fear of litigation??  It is simply ridiculous.   

For those of you, that see items you know are fake/altered, yet say nothing, please tell me you do not shrink a little lower in your chair, or feel a little smaller in your silence.  This indifferent, nonchalant, passive acceptance is absolutely astounding.  

Simply calling or e-mailing the auction house would at least put them on notice that people are paying attention.  Especially, if they start receiving multiple e-mails or calls.   

I still like the investigative journalistic approach.  I am sure a lot could be unveiled in the woodwork.

If you are going to give a statement of fact, then you ought to stand behind it; not then say well it was opiniontoo badsucker!  

I know there are some influential dealers and collectors who frequent and use this site.  We need a few good men not to stand by and do nothing.

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## C Allen

Why can we not say "Auctioneers XYZ are offering a sword that IN MY OPINION is a copy ? This would avoid any fear of litigation which is most unlikely anyhow if the item is a fake.

I'm the member of a Car Club forum and if someone has a bad experience with a dealer they name and shame and there has never been any comeback. If this is against Forum rules then maybe the rules need changing.

  Chris.

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## Roy Shadbolt

Simon...well said indeed Sir...!

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## Dmitry Z~G

> Originally Posted by Dmitry Z~G -
> Antiques have been faked for thousands for years. And people have been collecting originals and telling them from fakes for just as long.
> 
> 
> So this makes it okay??


I thought what I wrote was pretty clear, but let me be more obvious. Fakers have been around about as long as there was anything worth faking. When thieves get caught, they pay the price. If they don't get caught, they continue faking.




> New collectors are rightfully discouraged and afraid of entering the market, because these unscrupulous @#$$%$#^ that are eroding the industry. In my opinion there are far more fakes entering the field of arms, than other antiques, simply because originals are relatively simple to alter or parts to manufacture given modern technology. I would love to own a confederate sword, but simply don’t have the confidence to purchase one no matter where it comes from.


I see that your performance anxiety is directly related to inexperience. Luckily there is a number of good books on the subject, as well as museums, and very experienced collectors and dealers. If one isn't willing to learn, but still desires an object, one would be prudent to consult an expert.

Noone here would feel offended if someone advised an auction that they were selling a fake. 
Good auction houses and good dealers give their customers a grace period. Some auctions are gracious to offer up to 45 days for inspection and scrutiny. I've returned things a couple of times.

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## Glen C.

Speaking out from a distant and quiet table here, let me offer a suggestion that has been put forth in the past to specifically name and shame. The internet let's those vocal to speak there mind quite freely, within given bounds.  While it might seem a noble cause to offer such discourse here at SFI; Why is it necessary to mandate the problem be said here and endorsed by those paying the bill here?

Any (Simon, et al) are welcome to create a page and link it in their signature. Offer it up to the world on their own dime.

There is more leeway on some other boards but still, preaching to the choir here will reach many fewer than most beginners looking at a market.  Just for an example guys, look at how many auctions there are on Ebay from several regular power sellers that sell Japanese style swords.  Go ahead, call them out on your page as well.  TArgeting a sp[ecific auction house would be better broadcast on a private page (any volunteers?)

In the mean time here, there is nothing keeping the curious or like minded from messaging Simon (right?). I guess I could, just to sympathize but there are so many bad swords and arms out there, it may be my time would be better spent simply learning more myself in order to help others that might ask before bidding on an item.  I do get fairly regulr anonymous email asking about a listing or item they have in hand.  No I do not have a fakes blog. Yes, I have contributed to other fakes threads.

So anyway, any producing such a private page on their own and linking in their signature, getting gits via Google or other engines with tags for cheating theives auction would get my herald of accolade.  Don't color me jaded but this thread has me shaking my head a bit in wonder.  Publish a site. I will send folk that way to warn them about a given seller or auction house when they ask.

Blade Forums, US Militaria, just for two examples, seem to be set up to avoid ligation and there has been a repeated suggestion here at SFI for a feedback and it has actually been tried and failed (back to swordmakers and fallouts)

Take it public on a separate page and to messaging/email.

"I've got a secret I'm wanting to share!"

Cheers

Hotspur; _I am not suggesting chain mail spamming but rather making alerts on one's own bandwidth_

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## Dmitry Z~G

That is indeed a sober-minded suggestion, Glen. Those who want to can easily open up an online resource exposing unscrupulous sellers. I'll read it.

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## Will Mathieson

I have messaged friends when I see aparticularily good fake sword, not to warn them as much as just for interest and discussion.
Simon, how did the purchaser of that armour you mention react to you when you told him about the problems you heard discussed about it? I'm assuming you did? If I'm wrong please excuse me.

I don't attempt to give my opinion after someone has purchased a sword because they think I am questioning their intellegence and abilities. If it wasn't firmly set in their minds the sword was a good piece they would not have purchased.
Ever tell a friend that the car they just bought is ugly or a piece of junk? Did you hope for a positive response? I've never received one.

I try to focus on the positive aspects of collecting, such as history etc., really don't have time to identify fakes, there are too many of them, many in areas I don't collect or know enough about.

I'll repeat my belief that education is the best weapon to kill the market in faked swords.

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## Will Mathieson

> That is indeed a sober-minded suggestion, Glen. Those who want to can easily open up an online resource exposing unscrupulous sellers. I'll read it.


I, and I would imagine many others would read it too.

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## Simon R.

> Simon, how did the purchaser of that armour you mention react to you when you told him about the problems you heard discussed about it? I'm assuming you did? If I'm wrong please excuse me..


....uuuumm....not sure where this is coming from....don't remember this, but please insert the quote to refresh my memory???  Thanks...

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## victor khomenko

> Simply calling or e-mailing the auction house would at least put them on notice that people are paying attention.  Especially, if they start receiving multiple e-mails or calls.


Well... several days ago I emailed one seller who has a peculiar mix or real and fake items.  I received a polite reply to the effect of "If you say so!".  That was the end of the story.  I am certain he knew full well that his $5000 item was a fake, so my email was more for my own satisfaction than anything else.  

Bottom line - I believe nothing can be done about the proliferation of fakes, so it is every buyer's responsibility to know his game.

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## Simon R.

> Speaking out from a distant and quiet table here, let me offer a suggestion that has been put forth in the past to specifically name and shame. The internet let's those vocal to speak there mind quite freely, within given bounds.  While it might seem a noble cause to offer such discourse here at SFI; Why is it necessary to mandate the problem be said here and endorsed by those paying the bill here?
> 
> Any (Simon, et al) are welcome to create a page and link it in their signature. Offer it up to the world on their own dime.
> 
> There is more leeway on some other boards but still, preaching to the choir here will reach many fewer than most beginners looking at a market.  Just for an example guys, look at how many auctions there are on Ebay from several regular power sellers that sell Japanese style swords.  Go ahead, call them out on your page as well.  TArgeting a sp[ecific auction house would be better broadcast on a private page (any volunteers?)
> 
> In the mean time here, there is nothing keeping the curious or like minded from messaging Simon (right?). I guess I could, just to sympathize but there are so many bad swords and arms out there, it may be my time would be better spent simply learning more myself in order to help others that might ask before bidding on an item.  I do get fairly regulr anonymous email asking about a listing or item they have in hand.  No I do not have a fakes blog. Yes, I have contributed to other fakes threads.
> 
> So anyway, any producing such a private page on their own and linking in their signature, getting gits via Google or other engines with tags for cheating theives auction would get my herald of accolade.  Don't color me jaded but this thread has me shaking my head a bit in wonder.  Publish a site. I will send folk that way to warn them about a given seller or auction house when they ask.
> ...


Glen, et al

I am one of the people who found this forum as a complete and utter novice in my quest to gain knowledge, learn and participate specifically in swords.  I love swords, the history, and the direct connections they represent to bygone eras.  I probably have acquired and read just about every book ever written connected to American swords.  I have dedicated a lot of time and have learned a lot (including some things I wish I hadnt learned).  

Some of the most common topics and questions brought up on this forum by visitors (like me) relate to whether a sword they have, or are considering purchasing, is genuine.  Whether you like it or not this topic is forefront in every stakeholders mind.  As such, it should not be banished to the shadows in a cloak litigious fear.   The purpose of discussing these swords would not be to directly slander an auction house.  It would be merely asking an opinion about a sword and stating where to find it.  Auction houses post their opinions openly on the internet.  The unscrupulous houses happed to state, or allude to their opinions, as fact.  Saying nothing is to condone and make one complicit in the injection and/or recirculation of fakes.   

Talking about dimes, I like the idea of a website and have been thinking about making one specifically for American swords.so, like you suggest, perhaps a little more competition will revive the global economy :Smilie: .  It looks like there are already a few people here that might even support it!   If worst came to worst, I cannot see any auction house taking the time and effort to prove that a fake sword is real; but it might make them a little more honest.   I understand you will never stop this sort of thing, but reducing it by any amount would be worth it.  Although the readership/members/visitors to this forum may be limited, the opportunity exists to help in some capacity to do something to shed some light into the shadows.  I am not trying to upset the good old boys club here, but frankly, the attitude here is to do nothing because it is a lost cause. I am making an apparently naïve effort to try and bring some transparency into an industry that could use some.  So be it.  

Dmitry, while there are these "good dealers" that are apparently beyond reproach, many of them have no problem in overlooking detailed facts; like an Ames Militia sword is married to a similar type, yet non-Ames original scabbard, or strategically taking pictures that hide blemishes and defects.  When (and if) if the purchaser discovers it, they will graciously refund and return under honest error; but otherwise, they will keep their mouth shut!  So, I ask you, who are the "good dealers", who do you trust and on who's word?  

I have said all I am going to say on this, unless some furthernot so subtle insults are forthcoming.

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## Mark McMorrow

Simon, 

Perhaps you've unintentionally hit on something here.  "Who are the good dealers?"... Hmmm.... rather than identify dealers who knowingly or unknowingly handle fakes and forgeries and subject this site to a possible libel lawsuit, why not attack the issue on the oblique?  Instead of 'name & shame' the bad actors, 'name & fame' the good ones?

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## Will Mathieson

Simon, my apologies, it was Michael Callaghan who mentioned it here: 

"this year i went to a very well known london auction, named after the auctioneer. they had a suit of armour which i was interested in. I have very big ears and was around when the auctioneer was saying that they knew it was wrong, and so were a number of the swords. question, if they know its wrong why are they selling it. answer 20 percent on hammer price and no redress."

I find once a buyer has purchased a bad sword, anyone telling him it is wrong is challenging his judgement.
  It is not the type of fraud that hurts people as in starving them or making them homeless. If we can afford these luxuries we can afford to lose a bit, this must the an acceptable view of our justice system or they would actively pursue it more than they do now. 
That does not change the fact that being victim of a theft or fraud is very frustrating, if you could catch and flog the guilty party you would. Personal possessions are sacred to most people, men more than women I believe, ask your wife.( I know what most would say).

Marks Idea is a good one and would make for a shorter list, or not?? Yet to be determined. I think most are good but no one is perfect all the time.

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## victor khomenko

I don't think the idea of naming "good dealers" will work... I just looked at the feedback profile of the dealer I mentioned - it is 100% positive.  

In other words - there he is... your Perfect Good Dealer!   :Smilie:

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## Glen C.

Simon, did you get the pm??

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## Cathey Brimage

Hi Guys

Firstly the fakes are increasing, harder to pick and have the potential to drive young people away from collecting for ever.  Yes not we diehards who are already well and truly addicted will keep collecting, but without a next generation of collectors what happens to the wonderful items we are really just renting for our life time.  Also heaven forbid, you actually decide to sell your collection, and there is no one willing to buy.

Products are publicly reviewed all the time.  I believe that once you put something on the internet you lose a substantial amount of you legal ownership despite your copyright tag lines.  Restaurants, hotels, Computers are continuously named and shamed in the public arena.  If we are concerned about using Auction house pictures, then just pop in the link.

Yes we should feature items coming up at auctions and/or dealer sites for discussion good or bad.  We should name the source and lot number, no need to say more about the seller.  Discussion should then continue on the item not the principles or lack thereof of the seller, it is the item we are reviewing.

Sorry, but I really dont get why we pussy foot around on this subject.  Freds Auctions has a sword for sale, lot number 20, it is described as belonging to William Wallace, what does everyone think? Should I sell my house to buy it? Comments then come back on the sword not the auction house.  I believe you are defaming the object not the seller.  Fakes are now rife in every area of militaria and isnt it about time we could give advice before the damage has actually been done.  We can get reviews of hotels and restaurants, this is just another product.

Just my two bobs worth, cheers Cathey

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## C Allen

Well said Cathey.  Maybe litigation is a threat in the U.S. but I'm sure it would not happen in the U.K. If an item is fake then the dealer or auction house would not have a leg to stand on under our libel laws.

  Chris.

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## Michael Callaghan

hi chaps, this is a write up on whne auctions go wrong, its not a sword auction but one of the well known paris auction houses.
THE SALE OF TRIBAL ART RUINED BY SUSPICION OF FAKES
The Tajan tribal art auction should be a defining moment of re-opening in this particular sector for the Parisian auction house. Things however went a little differently. The auction was held in Paris last year on 19th February but the outcome was anything but positive. Suspicions heavily influenced sales of work, which were quickly possessed by interested collectors and participants at auction.

The sale presented a catalogue of 326 pieces accumulated after consulting the expert Hervé Naudy and the help of the department director Indiana Raffaelli. The catalogue presented the greatest collection of work by Kachina, indian figurines representing spirits, on sale for a long time. Also presented were masks from the Congo, and Alaska, Aztec clay models as well as other objects of antique culture. The auction announced that it was a huge success but it quickly transformed into a sort of nightmare for Tajan.

Everything was unleashed after the exhibition was completed before the auction following a letter sent to the Syndacat National des Antiquaires (SNA) by Bernard Dulon, Philippe Ratton, Christine Valluet and Jacques Blazy. In line with reports from the experts, numerous collectors aimed to ask for verification of the authenticity of the presented works. The same experts were perturbed at the moment of verification.

Of the 326 pieces presented at auction, about 80 were examined; draft reports suggest that the bought pieces under examination were described as: false, reconstructed, latest copy, rough copy, tourist object, contemporary invention, dull style. And if this wasnt enough, these frequently mentioned phrases were accompanied by comments like exaggerated appraisal or bizarre estimate. Yet still according to the experts report, once action was taken, there was nothing left to do but bring to light the gravity of the event underlining not only problems regarding the authenticity of the lots, but especially the estimated values offered with the least acknowledgement of artistic value.

The deceptive conduct was evident from an objects estimate that didnt correspond to its value, accompanied by false comments flattering its significance and the history of the lot. The potential buyers could naturally be previcated. The event reopens a past topic of debate regarding the role of the experts. In fact, in this field a sort of legislative vote exists while it is crucial to better regulate the evaluation system.

I am always looking at auctions in paris, as i am on the hunt for imperial guard weapons of the first empire. the odd thing is that this auction house as a arms auction coming up in a few weeks time, and have a few swords that i have seen before and that are fake.  
also have a look at the picture, realy does this look like the regimental markings for the 14th kings hussars, this not only being on a  1788 pattern sabre, but the 14th hussars did not come in to being until i think 1863. to me it likes two shields top to top and with the st andrew saltire in each shield. yet one other auction house trying it on. michael

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## Mark McMorrow

> I don't think the idea of naming "good dealers" will work... I just looked at the feedback profile of the dealer I mentioned - it is 100% positive.  
> 
> In other words - there he is... your Perfect Good Dealer!


Victor, 

I don't think this is illustrative of a flaw in the idea of naming good dealers.  It is, however, illustrative of a flaw in the "feedback" protocol of that particular selling venue (and that would make it only one of MANY FLAWS in that particular selling venue).

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## C Allen

Quite right Michael.  Not 14th Hussars or even 14th Light Dragoons. Just decorative tooling on the scabbard. This looks like a general auctioneer being misled by their vendor and accepting what he has told them. An old trick played by certain dealers.

   Chris.

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## Will Mathieson

I agree, decorative tooling. I don't believe a trick though, not even closely convincing.
Regimental marks are typically engraved or stamped on the metal parts of a sword and or scabbard.  Some have romantic thoughts in regards to swords resulting in false descriptions.
Sometimes the wrong, or lack of information about a sword can lead to a good deal, not always bad.

I think the scabbards decoration interpretation, believing it to be a regimental mark, is completely uconvincing unless one has no knowledge of swords.

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## A.Ducote

From a legal perspective, and this is pretty general here, what is the expectation that we have as consumers from an auction house?   Auctions, no matter how reputable,  are the number one place for the employment of buyer beware.  While I do not condone unscrupulous behavior, I believe that the collector bears a huge burden to be informed and be able to make his or her judgment call.  I've been burned before and it's my fault.   It starts with that little voice in my head that tells me no.  In those unfortunate situations, it is always when the suspect piece arrives at my home and goes under more careful scrutiny that I say "oh no."   Gladly, this had happened only a few times.  To make a long story short, this is an expensive hobby with a myriad of risks.   Protect yourself.

Now for the point at hand.  Should we be discussing openly those auction houses that done feel overstep the bounds of fair play and tend to pass on the odd fake here or there.   We who are from the United States love out right to speak freely as do all from nations who honor the basic rights of man.  Free speech, however, may be curtailed for various reasons.  The reason in particular of which I speak,  of course, is the great bugaboo of libel/slander.  Opinion, my friends, is not actionable.  However, that alone does not stop the bringing of an action and the incursion of expense.  For that reason, I would urge posters to avoid discussing any specifics about any auction house, dealer or seller in this forum.  I see nothing wrong with discussing bad experiences or practices in general.  Leave the specifics or any photographs that might reveal the identity of any person or entity for closed door discussions. 

As to the suggestion of a subforum dedicated to identifying "fakes," I would again urge caution.  Such a forum provides too much risk of crossing into the forbidden land of ongoing auction discussion.  Further, identifying fakes based upon a photograph alone can be a slippery slope.    With that being said, I think that a subforum of reproductions that are or have been available on the market is a useful tool.  I do distinguish between a fake and a reproduction.  There is nothing wrong with a reproduction.   Unscrupulous persons give reproductions a bad name.

Just my thoughts.

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## Michael Callaghan

For a few years I have been looking for a french grenadier a cheval sabre from the first empire. most show up in french auctions, there was a very bad copy in an english auction early this year which thank god was removed before the sale, and one in a well known italy auction which is always full of copies. well yet one more as turned up in paris. How do i know its a copy. well someone on this forum said that all you need is books, well from the books can anyone please tell me what to look out for re these swords. lets see how you do. I bet you not very well, and this is why this forum needs to post items about auction lots before they are sold to some poor chap.michael

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## Robert Wilkinson-Latham

> hi chaps, this is a write up on whne auctions go wrong, its not a sword auction but one of the well known paris auction houses.
> THE SALE OF TRIBAL ART RUINED BY SUSPICION OF FAKES
> The Tajan tribal art auction should be a defining moment of re-opening in this particular sector for the Parisian auction house. Things however went a little differently. The auction was held in Paris last year on 19th February but the outcome was anything but positive. Suspicions heavily influenced sales of work, which were quickly possessed by interested collectors and participants at auction.
> 
> The sale presented a catalogue of 326 pieces accumulated after consulting the expert Hervé Naudy and the help of the department director Indiana Raffaelli. The catalogue presented the greatest collection of work by Kachina, indian figurines representing spirits, on sale for a long time. Also presented were masks from the Congo, and Alaska, Aztec clay models as well as other objects of antique culture. The auction announced that it was a huge success but it quickly transformed into a sort of nightmare for Tajan.
> 
> Everything was unleashed after the exhibition was completed before the auction following a letter sent to the Syndacat National des Antiquaires (SNA) by Bernard Dulon, Philippe Ratton, Christine Valluet and Jacques Blazy. In line with reports from the experts, numerous collectors aimed to ask for verification of the authenticity of the presented works. The same experts were perturbed at the moment of verification.
> 
> Of the 326 pieces presented at auction, about 80 were examined; draft reports suggest that the bought pieces under examination were described as: “false”, “reconstructed”, “latest copy”, “rough copy”, “tourist object”, “contemporary invention”, “dull style”. And if this wasn’t enough, these frequently mentioned phrases were accompanied by comments like “exaggerated appraisal” or “bizarre estimate”. Yet still according to the expert’s report, once action was taken, there was nothing left to do but bring to light the gravity of the event underlining not only problems regarding the authenticity of the lots, but especially the estimated values offered with the least acknowledgement of artistic value.
> ...


14th Hussars from 1861 as the 14th King's Hussars

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## Simon R.

Real, reproductions, or fakes??...

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## Simon R.

more pics....

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## Simon R.

more pics...

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## Michael Callaghan

hi, no expert on swords of the ACW, but i would say that the sword just above this post was a fake. maybe me but it looks like its been aged, all a little to even and the live rusting is also something i have not seen on blades, apart from here in the UK the many ww1 weapons that come up for sale. now go and tale me i am wrong,lols  michael

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## Will Mathieson

I would say the 1st and 3rd swords are copies, the 2nd one I'm not sure, more photos required but I would say it has qualities of a copy. I would not purchase any of them if they were up for auction.

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## niall dignan

> For a few years I have been looking for a french grenadier a cheval sabre from the first empire. most show up in french auctions, there was a very bad copy in an english auction early this year which thank god was removed before the sale, and one in a well known italy auction which is always full of copies. well yet one more as turned up in paris. How do i know its a copy. well someone on this forum said that all you need is books, well from the books can anyone please tell me what to look out for re these swords. lets see how you do. I bet you not very well, and this is why this forum needs to post items about auction lots before they are sold to some poor chap.michael



To give everybody a fair shot at your challenge let's quote the auction blurb accompanying your attached photo;




> SABRE DE GRENADIER A CHEVAL DE LA GARDE 2ème MOD. Monture laiton à trois branches qui enserrent un médaillon orné de la grenade enflammée. Calotte à courte jupe moulurée et découpée. Plateau terminé en palmette. Marquages de VERSAILLES, matricule C.N. 65. Fusée gainée de cuir et filigranée de laiton. Lame (96.5 cm) à la montmorency marquée au dos Mafture Imple du Klingenthal Coulaux Frères. Poinçons " B " (Bick) et " M " (Mouton). Fourreau à deux grandes garnitures laiton jointes par deux joncs avec un bracelet de renfort. Elles laissent apparaître un crevé de cuir noir. Poinçon " LB ". Provenance : vente Kohn (25 11 1994). Ce modèle de sabre a aussi équipé les dragons et les gendarmes d`élite de la garde.


Now,they describe this as a 2nd Model and the scabbard would tend to indicate that,and,lthough it has been slightly modified,the small perforations are in the right place .We would need to see detailed photos of the hilt and pommel area to confirm this.
_Les Sabres by Lhoste & Resek_ give this model a narrow window of 1802-1803.We would need to see the poincóns as the 'B' described may be for Directeur Beaumaretz. Mouton and Bick were controlers,1st and 2nd class respectivly(_ref. Armes Blanche by Lhoste & Buigne)_.As the model is from the end of the Consular Period I would have a query about the _Mafture Imple_ as part of the spine inscription.Napoleon did not become Emperor until December 1804

This forum is a valuable resource also and the following is one of my favourite threads;http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...adier+a+cheval

Is it what it proports to be??? People should make up their own minds.Caveat emptor.

Maybe you could tell us what *you* think,Michael

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## Javier Ramos

I have gone fast through the thread, but I think nobody mentioned this.
I am against setting a fakes forum because it will be the best tool to perfect future fakes. Giving too many explanations outside such a forum is already problematic.

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## Glen C.

And so it goes. The item sold as old because someone told them it was old. They were simply unfamiliar, or looking to recoup their own loss while passing on ignorance.  Somewhat baffling was my sending  a correct id to this well respected civil war authority and his return message "Yup, that looks like our gal. Buy all you can!". This was entirely dismaying at the time because of the level in trust I did have for the fellow and even well recommended by a senior collector on this board.  The return policy and trust were the reply the last time I posted this. Both fair factors but I have to throw trust right out the window in this case.

Cheers

Hotspur; _Since then rarely offering a correct id for what I see, even if the seller has a much better guess or understanding_

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## Simon R.

> I would say the 1st and 3rd swords are copies, the 2nd one I'm not sure, more photos required but I would say it has qualities of a copy. I would not purchase any of them if they were up for auction.



Actually, all three are additional swords sold from the same auction house as the ones I opened this thread with.  The photos are a bit mixed up, but I would wager they are all "faked" and probably made by the same person. They all sold for hundreds and into the thousand dollar range.  There could be more, but these are the immediate ones that jump up.....simple coincidence?  

The descriptions are vague and generic, although allude to the items being genuine.  This would probably be fine,..*IF* the house were not aware that they were copies.  What do you think?

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## T. Graham

Look at Cowen's militaria auction catalogs. They describe any M1860 Staff officer swords as Civil War.  And what is worse, Many years ago I bought from Cowen, a  Civil War M1860 which was correctly describe in considerable detail. This same description also showed why 99% of the M1860's were not Civil War. Do your research.

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## Simon R.

> Look at Cowen's militaria auction catalogs. They describe any M1860 Staff officer swords as Civil War.  And what is worse, Many years ago I bought from Cowen, a  Civil War M1860 which was correctly describe in considerable detail. This same description also showed why 99% of the M1860's were not Civil War. Do your research.


This is not about misidentification....that can be quite benefitial to the buyer.  For e.g. It is great when an 1832 General Officer's Sword is simply labeled "Militia Officers Sword"...I'll take that all day long.  

This is about marketing swords they *know* are fake ( and probably all come from the same consignor), but they are alluding to them possibly being genuine and leaking them into the market at great cost to all stakeholders.

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## Michael Callaghan

re the grenadier a cheval sword, well only one reply. but lets look a bit harder at this sword. after all the copies have all the correct marks on the blade, ageing is easy to do. so what ease is there that you would look for, after all this sword is expensive, not some victoria job. will the books tale you, what you need to know ?????????? and if not, and i am sure you will not find the answers in them, its only by using forums THAT ALLOW open debates on auction lots that buyers can ask the questions before laying down their money. Come on have  ago. michael

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## Will Mathieson

Michael, using forums is a good medium to decide a purchase, but only one part of the info required. 
The problem being we can only use the photos supplied and photos can be very misleading unintentionally. 
For instance, colours change from photo to photo, patina cannot be guaranteed as original. Plating on swords is not always obvious, most sword pictured if not told they are plated appear convincingly in the white. Are the parts tight, fit well?? 
Always an educated GUESS when deciding purchase using digital photos. 
 A good return policy is essential, it will cost you return postage if you're further away. 
The fake Wilkinson sword I gave you the link to is a perfect example, at first I did not realise the fakery, it was pointed out to me. Sold by a large well known and respected auction house, most likely fooled them too, and the buyer!
With first impressions we believe what we want to, that's what fakers rely apon and the need for (instant gratification) we see only certain elements. 
When first collecting I purchased a fake. I learned alot, what to look for, and not believe any story, a little cynicism goes a long way.  Forums cannot give this type of education. Luckily I noticed it as a fake almost immediately and received a refund. 
There is a ton of good people and information here, but the end decision is yours alone.  Forum opinion is one good part of the puzzle you can use to decide a purchase.
Your own judgement sharpened and honed by handling many authentic swords will be your best friend.

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## Michael Callaghan

will, the test is, what do you look for in this type of sword. Why are so many showing up at auctions that are fakes, copies etc. As to auction houses and returns, please take a long hard look at their sales information.they try to get out of the trading standards act here in the UK by acting as the go between from seller to buyer, yet they have so say experts who turn out not to experts whne things go wrong. Also I was on the understanding that this forum was to be that a FORUM to share information, points of view etc. The way you write, its a forum of I am all right jack, and You are on your own. So back to the point, using your judgement, and honed skills, what do you look for in this type of sword, its not a trick question, just a honest one. as to the picture, well. lets say that you are an overseas buyer, can,t get to the auction, but you have some one who can go. what would you ask them to look for, again using your extra sharped skills that I for one don,t have and by the look of it, not many on this forum. I look forward to your reply, and i bet it shows the need on an open debate on fakes coming onto the market, the use of auction houses to for the word fool internet bidders, etc. michael

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## victor khomenko

> I have gone fast through the thread, but I think nobody mentioned this.
> I am against setting a fakes forum because it will be the best tool to perfect future fakes. Giving too many explanations outside such a forum is already problematic.


Full agreement here.  I stopped describing the faults of fakes in open forums long time ago.  At least in my field I continue seeing the same elements, same mistakes again and again... which can be considered a positive thing.

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## John Hart

> The way you write, its a forum of I am all right jack, and You are on your own.


That's a harsh way of putting it - maybe a better way would be to say that you can't de-risk the buying process completely when bidding on items you haven't personally handled, or even if you send a friend to bid for you.  And also you have to balance the price paid with the potential gains.  Case in point: I have just purchased a sword from a fellow Forum member on the basis of a few fairly poor photographs and a partial description.  I haven't done my usual level of due diligence because the sword looked interesting and the price seemed fair.  If I receive it and it turns out to be a lemon then I will only have myself to blame.  If the price had had a nought added to it I would have been much more careful and asked more questions.  This seems to me like a fairly normal way of going about collecting; if you're staking everything you've saved on a single piece (and particularly very rare or high-value items), then you need to do a lot more than just ask questions on a forum before deciding whether or not to commit to a bid.

(This is an interesting debate and just my few penn'orth contribution to it!)

John

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## Will Mathieson

Hello Michael, I can say that I do not look at copies or fakes of swords and their pecularities that separate them from authentic swords.
I look at and handle authentic swords and make a mental note of their characteristics.

What I was trying to say,  John put it better. You cannot expect opinions on a forum to be perfect and decide what and what not to purchase using only this info. You cannot remove all risk. 
Having more experience with swords or whatever one collects does not guarantee that we do not get stung once and a while, anyone who says they have not been taken are fibbing. Many of us started collecting without the aid of forums.

I had to return one Wilkinson sword with great blade etching because the hilt had the grip replaced, but worse, the blade bent like lead. What no one could see in photos is that the sword had been in a fire and lost the grip and blade temper. Cost me the postage both ways from the UK, a total of about $140. If I had kept the sword I'd be out alot more.

As John says, due diligence on your part.  This means ask questions, obtain photos from angles you want to see and so on. 
You cannot get enough info if someone is trying to hide something.  If the seller refuses photos or info don't buy it. 
I am not saying that I won't do my best to help on this forum if I know something about a particular sword, but it's up to you to put the pieces together. 

For your last point, debating fakes. As a collector of authentic swords I do not spend any time viewing copies, fakes, or reproductions as they do not interest me. If I see a sword that is wrong I just don't attempt to buy it and pass it by.
Debating a sword to ascertain its authenticity before attempting purchase is great, complaining about auction houses that continually sell them is another matter that does not interest me, because I would not buy anything from such a place and would suggest others to do likewise. 

I would never ask someone else to be responsible to purchase a sword for me overseas by telling them what to look for.
Why? you cannot verbally describe what takes actual handling of swords over time, like describing to someone who has never tasted a strawberry what it tastes like. 
You can purchase from an overseas auction house by yourself without someone there to do it for you, especially if they don't know what to look for.  
If you can't be satisfied as to the authenticity and condition of a sword, do you expect others to be and buy it for you?

We can't know why overseas buyers purchase, possibly they don't expect authentic swords? If they did you would see the same swords being re auctioned off, have you seen any indication of this on any scale, say on a scale complimenting the quantities of fakes sold you mention? How are the swords described? detailed or in general terms? Do you truly think they expect authentic swords?
This is a question that has not been answered, are there returns of copies (fakes if sold as authentic) and are they being resold? 
If not I would suggest most are happy with their purchase. Answer the above and prove me wrong.

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## Glen C.

Ric Savage and Savage Station has been one such fakes exposed sites. I saw this when new and while browsing the BF Levine section.

http://www.savage-station.com/

Ironically, he is interviewed by American Digger not long after the knife posted above was published as a find of note.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

What I was getting at earlier is that a page as simple as a blog can easily and openly name names as one might want to do.  Global reform is a bit of an impossibility though and I think that is where most agree that self edification is really the way to go.  An awful lot  can be measured just by careful observation of listing after listing and focusing on a narrower genre to know easily right from wrong.  How to pressure a seller to behave? As crass as it may seem, simply delete the bookmark that takes you there, or step in to put up a page with a list.

Going back in this thread to the first examples posted, yes theer are some things that are readily apparent but at the same time, confederate swords are not a particular niche I have paid much attention to.  Yet, as mentioned, some things stick out like sore thumbs.

Savage's site reminds me that there are fake guides on Ebay. Certainly most auction houses would probably not house such but most (from what I see) have a pretty clear caveat that things may not be what they seem.  I think it was during the recent Heritage auctions someone here mentioned that "oh, Heritage. Yes, they are pretty good with descriptions.  That would lend one to think that many don't do such a great job.

Anyway, as Savage has a site, maybe funnel names to name as a baddie and as Mark has suggested offer good guys.

I have to be honest though about priorities.  Price follows interest and anything else gets only scant recofgnition or time.  I do mentally keep a list in mind as new reproductions tend to pop up but again, within a fairly narrow window of what I browse for.  For the confederates (for instance) I have been known to scour the net to place a crispy new sword from bigmick (or another ebay bastion of repros) then pull pictures from trusted dealer sites and then show the comparison to a window shopper or new happy/discouraged owner.  Then comes the "lecture" about self education, books one should have and the patience to absorb half what we read.  Unfortunately, nine out of ten actually seeking information don't bother looking beyond that first good/bad purchase.  The swords Simon is seeing coming out of the northwest may well circulate even here at SFI and then we can point to this exact thread.

I am rambling here and would as soon cry out to the world that $660 for a rather mundane late eagle pommel was twice its street value (atta boy Jan). Not a fake but for some unknown reason, apparently priceless to the new owner.  Man..... that b&g was coool looking though right?  Or, it may well pop up again at twice that price and linger on Ebay for years.

Cheers

Hotspur; _actually just posted to share the Savage Station link_

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## Simon R.

[QUOTE=This is a question that has not been answered, are there returns of copies (fakes if sold as authentic) and are they being resold? .[/QUOTE]

I can aboslutely say that the house I have been talking about, does not accept returns.  I can also say with 100% confidence that they have been told they are complicit in the sale distribution  of fakes.  Whether the fakes are being resold or not, I cannot answer.  Would you resell a fake?

I don't think anyone is saying that one is not responsible for making one's own decision, but when certain @!#$#^&^ sole intention is directed to the purpose of deceipt and taking advantage of ignorance for financial gain, the chance for honest collecting is diminished and damaging to all stakeholders.  

Frankly, those that would delve into the field of collecting are like children learning (speaking from experience).  It sounds like you would blame the children over the wolves and simply accept it as "collateral damage" when they get disgusted and drop out? Honestly, how do you expect to gain fresh blood and expand interest into preserving history with this traditional, stagnated, approach?  I can tell you (as fact) that the Histroical Arms Association in my neck of the woods are 70 +.  I can also tell you why I am approximatley the youngest (that at least attends meetings).  The confidence on being able to invest in history with passion and confidence is being rapidly eroded by the @####&* and auction houses that are given free license by people who should be outraged; (frankly) this is mind blowing!!

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## Will Mathieson

Simon, I would not go so far as to blame a auction house who passes on fakes as responsible for new collectors losing interest and quitting altogether. They learn to shop elsewhere where it more reliable such as from word of mouth. 
 I know of no one who has quit due to purchasing a fake sword. If their passion is strong enough, one or more crooked auction houses won't stop them, there are many other ways to buy swords so we adapt until we can recognize fakes.
I don't know of novice collectors asking opinions about an item prior to purchase, they tend to want independe like everyone  so how do you steer them away from a bad decision?  (other than forum form).

I don't usually buy swords from auction houses, so it's not an issue with me because I don't see it except on the web occasionally. 
I think your main focus is that you want to clean up the auction houses so novice collectors can purchase without issue, you have alot of work ahead of you. What do you expect others to do? We live in a culture of being ripped off at every retail store and gas station. What do you do when the price of gas rises again? Exactly, nothing. We don't get together and form a group to boycott the company. This is why these auction houses still sell fakes, we are used to being ripped off. This is why you can't get the authorities excited about it, besides the auction house disclaimer protects them against just about everything including earthquakes. I will pm you a link to one of interest.
Stating no returns does not hold true if the item is not as described. You have a legal right to return if you don't get what you pay for. Yes this may be a fight, the louder you get the more likely you will get your money back.

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## Michael Callaghan

So Will, its OK for auction houses to rip people off as they can buy from a more reliable section of the market. From your own words, you are informing the forum that you are aware of auction houses ripping people off, yet will do nothing to cut down on their actions. For gods sake, what sort of person are you ???? Do you yourself trade in fakes ?? spend hours in your shed knocking out copies of, ACW swords to sale on the American market, or are you the sort of person who sits my the home fire at night, wrapped in that warm feeling you get knowing some one out there in the sword collection circle is getting ripped off.

Lets try to forget Will, and his narrow minded view on collecting and collectors, and look hard at the facts.

Fact, a number of auction houses are knowingly selling fakes, weapons that have had a bit of doctoring lets say, the regimental number, or name etc added on by that unnamed dealer or trader to get a better price. 

Fact, the number of fakes, copies in the market place is growing and covers yet more types of swords each year.

Fact, many more buyers are doing so over the Internet and need to trust auctioneers so say experts review to make a judgement.

Fact auction houses operate outside the trading standards laws, due to buying second hand act. true here in the UK at any hand. This means its very hard to get a refund by law, it can be done but the law is not on your side in most cases.



what i feel needs to be done.

this forum, should allow open debates on lots coming up for auction. I don,t believe for one moment that any auction house can or would take action on any forum that debates an item they have listed on the Internet. The arms and armour forum having been listing fakes coming up at auction for years with no come back, After all does not the auction house hide behind the fact that they don,t own the item, and are just acting as ago between for buyer and seller and can,t be held account for anything, so have the hell can they take action on something they are so say not accountable for.



so come on address the facts, get up to date and lets talk more openly on this forum,and leave the likes of Will in his shed. michael

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## Will Mathieson

Michael, you have totally missed the point.  

"So Will, its OK for auction houses to rip people off as they can buy from a more reliable section of the market. From your own words, you are informing the forum that you are aware of auction houses ripping people off, yet will do nothing to cut down on their actions. For gods sake, what sort of person are you ???? Do you yourself trade in fakes ?? spend hours in your shed knocking out copies of, ACW swords to sale on the American market, or are you the sort of person who sits my the home fire at night, wrapped in that warm feeling you get knowing some one out there in the sword collection circle is getting ripped off."

Where anywhere did I say anything like that?? :Confused: 

Why do you seem to hold me responsible for dishonest auction houses you don't like??  
Is it a forums mandate to go after shady auctioneers? If you can find something contrary to this let me know.

I don't collect US swords or make them and know little about them. They are as tricky as WW2 German items, heavily faked. 
I've been burned and I don't blame others for not stopping me from myself.

What have YOU done to "cut down on their actions" at auction houses?  
The ones you describe are not even in my country, I can't do a thing about it. The auction houses near me are no different than any others, they all get some of it wrong some of the time and they exist to profit.

Since the idea of fraudulent sales of swords bothers you so, contact your authorities who have the power to punish those responsible.  
Why don't you fill out a police report stating your concerns?

The idea of posting a sword photo on this forum and getting opinions as to authenticity is fine.

Stopping fraudulent activities of registered businesses is another matter.  I wish you luck.

I have other priorities that are far more important than protecting the public from purchasing faulty items.
If that was the case i'd have a full time job at Wal Mart.
That is not to say that if I see a fellow collector about to make a mistake that I won't tell them this.

In this world you have a responsibility to yourself, so learn about whatever it is you collect and be vigilant.

I'm sure I can hammer out a crude facimily of an ACW sword if you really want one. :Big Grin:  

I think this post has strayed beyond its intended purpose. :EEK!:

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## Javier Ramos

Maybe it will be worthier to try something else. Establish a limited mailing list, of voluntary participation. Once a member spots a fake, he passes it to the list with the reasoning of why it is a fake, and the members send a private mail to the head of that auction house, complaining about the situation. I think it is better not to have a common text model, but each member can reuse his basic form. This will be useless with ebay sellers, but it could have some impact for bringing into line the more reputation concerned auction houses. Besides, the members in the list will have information about the fakes. At the start it will require some effort to send the emails, but the more are sent the better for their effect. If previous customers of that auction house are among the complainers they will take it more seriously.

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## J.G. Hopkins

Michael,
I think your recent post is out of line.  Please tone it down and be respectful.

Andre Ducote, our "Attorney General", has offered his view on the matter;




> Now for the point at hand.  Should we be discussing openly those auction houses that done feel overstep the bounds of fair play and tend to pass on the odd fake here or there.   We who are from the United States love out right to speak freely as do all from nations who honor the basic rights of man.  Free speech, however, may be curtailed for various reasons.  The reason in particular of which I speak,  of course, is the great bugaboo of libel/slander.  Opinion, my friends, is not actionable.  However, that alone does not stop the bringing of an action and the incursion of expense.  For that reason, I would urge posters to avoid discussing any specifics about any auction house, dealer or seller in this forum.  I see nothing wrong with discussing bad experiences or practices in general.  Leave the specifics or any photographs that might reveal the identity of any person or entity for closed door discussions.


Your opinion that SFI will not be taken to court is sadly not enough to protect us from a lawsuit.  SFI has been sued in the past, and although it was a victory for SFI we do not which to repeat that experience.  Glen's suggestion to start a personal blog to highlight and discuss fraudulent auction house practices seems like a good solution to me.

As to a fakes sub-forum, I agree with Javier.

Jonathan

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## Michael Callaghan

Sorry to you all, I think you are missing the point, lets take one example. someone see,s a sword they are interested in buying on the net. there is a picture of said item. this person places a question on this forum or what ever and asks the question. What do you think of this ??????????. sorry just don,t see what objection anyone can have with this. It make me mad when i did try last year to post on this forum details of a sword that had been played with and then to read that someone in america objected to this item being on the forum as it was going to auction. result. some person was taken for 4000 pounds. Maybe that buyer was a member of this forum, maybe he/she was not. but just, and i say but just, that person may of seen my post, and asked a few more questions, is that not part what collecting is about, is this forum not about sharing information, helping each other. from what i have been reading at the moment the answers NO. michael

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## Glen C.

If I can illustrate a couple of other dark sides of presenting listings for review.  One, in that an item might be true and someone denounces it as false and picks it up at a neat discount. Secondly that posting listings here can and often does raise the bidding on a given good item.

Not offering a value, the same ticket. By not stating a value, one can never be  be claimed to have taken advantage of an unsuspecting seller in a conflict of interest.

Calling out sites, vendors, auction houses and makers can make for a pretty sticky wicket but oif a board such as this is to be held liable for what participants post here (ie; slander, libel).  Although the subject of this thread also includes fake or dishonestly described items, it is really more a matter of attacking a person or business and that is better done off boards and dealt with privately. Or, on one's own soap box. I have one but it doesn't revolve around these subjects at all.  A collective with a specific agenda fairly easily orchestrated outside the gates of communities such as this.

I think I also mentioned getting regular email and messages for my opinion or just to point out a listing of interest and the opinion discussions do involve trust. When I have lost trust with a site (as outlined in the Korium post) I just take the seller with a huge grain of salt.  Any that are curious, I would be glad to share that dealer's name and the senior collector here that recommended him.  I was shocked but have gotten over blaming the seller of the person sending me the dealers way. 

Having messaged Simon about the auction house in question, I now have that on file. I will admit it is not a house I was familiar with.  I share bookmark links folders from time to time but should include that I don't endirse any of them in an all encompassing blanket of goodness.

Javier's thoughts of a mailing list is a good one and could be an opt in subscription. It could easily supplement personal page links in profiles of signatures. ONe thing though, I tend to dismiss mailing lists and have signatures turned off. I figure if someone wants to reach me, I am not hard to find and likewise, may here could provide answers to questions I might have myself.

A fools gambit FAQ section? Well, that is already there (to an extent) in the beginner's section here at SFI We can't make people read FAQ and READ FIRST posts in subsections. Nor can we expect an awful l;ot of people entering here to want to spend time in education.  There are several extant threads as to why many would rather not respond at all to one shot johns who are after the quick lunch never to return. I am more optimistic that there are quite a few here that do care to nurture but the cold facts of life are often that nine out of ten have one ID that matters enough that they register in the first place.

Cheers

Hotspur; _take two F1 race weekends and get back to me in Brazil _ 

*RIP John Fitch*
_~August 4, 1917 – October 31, 2012~_

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## Michael Callaghan

michael

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## Cathey Brimage

Hi guys

I have been following this thread with interest and we seem to be getting side tracked.  The only question is why we can’t openly discuss items put up for sale on the internet, regardless of the source.  If we are serious about being an educational site for those interested in Antique swords then we should be prepared to comment on swords offered publicly for sale on the World Wide Web.

I cannot reconcile being more than happy to advise someone that their new acquisition may well be a dud, rather than offering advice and opinions that might save someone’s hard earned dollars.  As I said previously other items offered for sale on the internet are routinely reviewed and criticized, what makes sword dealers and/or auction houses sacrosanct.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing."

Cheers Cathey and Rex

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## Simon R.

> Hi guys
> 
> I have been following this thread with interest and we seem to be getting side tracked.  The only question is why we can’t openly discuss items put up for sale on the internet, regardless of the source.  If we are serious about being an educational site for those interested in Antique swords then we should be prepared to comment on swords offered publicly for sale on the World Wide Web.
> 
> I cannot reconcile being more than happy to advise someone that their new acquisition may well be a dud, rather than offering advice and opinions that might save someone’s hard earned dollars.  As I said previously other items offered for sale on the internet are routinely reviewed and criticized, what makes sword dealers and/or auction houses sacrosanct.
> 
> "The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing."
> 
> Cheers Cathey and Rex


I agree absolutely and whole heartedly.

Simon

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## Glen C.

And yet, SFI is not the only sword/weapons venue that discourages the discussion of ongoing sales.  It is a mixed bag really, so why blame any venue for all the ills of the world?

There is a big difference between doing nothing and keeping in touch as some might. Then also, pouting because one site or another is not what one wants it to be. With both the administrator and legal checking into this thread, flogging a dead horse is not how I would rather not spend my time. I'd post up a list of alternative venues but you may be disappointed that they don't allow current sale discussion either. However, there has bee a fair amount of it here without naming names or specifics.  My own frustrations here are what may appear as double standards at times. Despite that, still a superior site to learn from and share (sharing instead of complaining how a board runs).

Cheers

Hotspur; _even the most liberal boards I have visited do have some guidelines_

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## David gray

How about we don't talk about or mention the auction house or company selling the sword and simply talk about the sword in question?

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## John R C

Thought I'd barge in here for a few, as this is a subject near and dear to my heart. It's a very important conversation, and one that needs to be aired out every so often. While I'm new here, I've been collecting military antiques for very nearly 50 years now, and have been active on a number of British firearms boards for 15 or so.

Introductions out of the way...I'd like to opine that every comment I've read here has some merit, and most of the points I'd make have been well covered, but I'll throw a few out there anyway. Delving into the subject of fakes and the people who produce, sell, or auction them is, as this thread illustrates, a very tricky business...Who gets to be the expert? What happens when two recognized experts disagree? How do we keep too much critical info from getting passed on to the fakers? And so on...

Afghanistan provides a very instructive model...anyone who's been keeping an eye on that region has watched the fakes go from laughable to _very_ nearly indistinguishable from legit pieces in just two or three years. I could probably dig up and point to a few of the online discussions that helped fuel that rapid increase in quality. In addition...I don't know too many antique collectors of any stripe that are all that eager to throw their favorite and most productive sources out there to the general public, and I'll hazard a guess that most auction bidders would prefer a smaller rather than larger pool of competing bidders for the object of their present fancy.

This forum seems to do a great job of sharing knowledge as it is, and a prohibition on publicly posting specifics of live auctions is very nearly universal from what I've seen, but there are options...feedback subforums, for example. The blog idea is a great one. What's certain in all of this is that there isn't a one size fits all solution.

There will never be any substitute for a big reference library and lots of hands on experience. And for anyone not interested in modern repros, I'd advise that they get interested. Most are factory made, and as such will have a well defined set of characteristics that even a very skilled faker won't be able to age away. If I had the money, I'd have as big a library of reproduction militaria as I do books.

All in all, a good in-depth public discussion of a sword in question, with any commentary on the vendor kept to PMs seems the policy that best covers it to me too. As for warning off potential victims...in my experience, it's unfortunately way more common for the first look at someone's object to be under the heading of "Look what I've just bought" rather than "Look what I'm thinking of buying".

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## Simon R.

...My favorite auction house just added to the list of people conned by adding another poor sucker.  Whoever it is now owns a beautiful $650 piece of junk.... :Mad:

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