# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  Sword Bayonet Discussion & Photos

## J.G. Hopkins

This thread is dedicated to discussing and sharing photos of sword bayonets.  The bayonets can be from your collection or just a bayonet in which or have an interest or a question.

To start, below are two mid 19th century sword bayonets from my collection.  I have had trouble pinning each of them down exactly, so I will do my best to provide accurate information.  I am very open to corrections!

First is what I have seen called an "1855 Mississippi" sword bayonet.  It is marked S&K, for Schnitzler & Kirschbaum, on one side of the forte, while the other side is struck with an anchor.  I do not have a scabbard for this one.  Does the 1855 Mississippi description seem appropriate?







Second is what I believe to be a French bayonet, possibly a Model 1842 saber bayonet.  The forte is marked 1851 and the cross guard is engraved with regimental markings I am unable to decode.  Again, there is no scabbard.  Any thoughts on its true origins?







Bayonets are not a huge draw for me, but there are are few patterns I would like to add to my collection when funds permit.  Above all other patterns, I would be especially keen to add an Elcho bayonet to my collection.  I also like the yataghan pattern British bayonets and would gladly add a few to my collection at some point.

Please add to the thread with thoughts, photos, or questions!

Thank you,
Jonathan

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## A.Ducote

Jonathon,

I'm wondering if the 1855 Mississippi is in reference to the Mississippi rifle, which is a pattern 1841.  There is a US pattern 1841 sabre bayonet.  Looking at "Fighting Men of the Civil War", there is a photograph of a waistbelt and sabre bayonet described as a pattern 1855 rifleman's waist belt and bayonet. The guard on the 1855 US sword bayonet is straight across and looks very similar to the first bayonet. Also, the blade is straight. However, some features of either don't exactly match yours. 

The second bayonet's guard turns down at the base and the blade is curved.  Looking more at the reference, I find a picture of a Belgian pattern 1842 short rifle with sabre bayonet.  I think that we may have found our match for the second.  The markings on your second bayonet don't look to be US or CS markings. 

In sum, I think that the best I can say definitely is that these are both mid 19th century sabre bayonet.  Then again, I'm not a bayonet guy. I'm just a guy with a bunch of books. 


Andre

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## WBranner

I'll go with this. bayonets aren't really my thing, but I have a couple.
The 1st is a Baker Rifle bayonet. No markings, but complete and the spring still works. Lots of dings at the pommel from either trying to tighten it up (unsuccessful) or by using it as a hammer.

Second is a Krag bayonet from pre WWI. It was passed down from my grandfather who was getting ready to ship out when the war ended. It came in a picket pin scabbard which may not be original issue, but I've seen much debate on the issue. It seems that only krags are seen with them, so I'm open to reasonable explanations. It is a loose fit.

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## N White

What a wonderful thread!  What is the definition of sword bayonet, JG?  I read somewhere that 16 inches or more was the cutoff.  

Lucky you to have a m1842, that's one on my short list I haven't been able to acquire yet.  

Below are my long ones, a 1st pattern 98/05, 2 Chassepots,  an 1867 Danish yataghan, and the 1884 mod to that pattern (internal coilspring as opposed to external leaf spring), 5 Gras , 2 Argentine Mausers, a Yugoslavian (I think) Mauser, an Arisaka, and the m1907 I posted yesterday.  

The most interesting is one of the argentines, it is a m1891, but with wood handles, 1891s are suposed to have white metal or brass handles.  Below, I took a comparison, with the 1891 and my 1909 next to each other and you can see they are completely different, down to the press catch on opposite sides. 

Also, while not a sword bayonet, I figured while I was taking pictures I'd add a somewhat uncommon and sought after creature as well- a green handled Colt/Armalite m7.

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## J.G. Hopkins

Andre,
Thank you for the additional information.  I just came across some more info at Arms2Armor.

Wayne,
The first bayonet I have pictured has the same wear to the pommel.  The marks appear to be the result of using the pommel as a hammer--for tent stakes perhaps?

N White,
Would you say that the second bayonet I have pictured is in fact an M1842?

All, thanks for contributing your information and photos!

Jonathan

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## N White

Jonathan-

http://www.bayonetsonline.com/c_europe.htm

http://www.old-smithy.info/  (go to by country then france).

Looks to me like a 1842, but you have it in hand, so compare to the examples presented on those sites.  the 1st link mentions some were made by german manufacturers- I'd suspect that was the case with yours, since the french made bayonets/swords almost always have the year/place of manufacture on the spine. 

As for the markings I have seen examples of french Chassepots being stamped with german unit markings, being siezed in WW I and re-issued by the germans.  This may or may not be the case with your bayonet, but if it is, it usually adds value, lucky you.

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## David gray

Hi Jonathan can't help with yours I know nothing about sword bayonets other than what my three are called so I'll share these, from top to bottom, a M1886-16 Lebel, not sure if you'd consider a sword bayonet but it's 19.5 inches long, next a Chassepot 1871 and last a M1874 Gras, all French.

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## J.G. Hopkins

N White,
Thank you for the links.  The main difference in construction between may bayonet and other 1842 style saber bayonets is the fuller termination at the ricasso.  The fuller transition on M1842s is smooth and gradual, whereas the fuller on mine ends abruptly.

Also, as you noted, mine is missing the typical French markings.  The regimental markings on the cross guard look more German to me than French.

Jonathan

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## J.G. Hopkins

David,
Thanks for sharing your bayonets.  It seems that the French were prolific in their manufacture of sword bayonets.  They seem to be the first, or one of the first, major European nations to adopt sword bayonets for all ranks, not just NCOs and elite units.  The Chassepot and Gras bayonets are quite common 19th century sword bayonets in today's market, and are still very affordable.  

Jonathan

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## A.Ducote

Following up on Jonathon's thread about sabre bayonets, here is a picture of one that is quite interesting.  Notice the ring mounted on the pommel so that it could be used with a variety of weapons.  

Anyone care to take a guess at the nation and the manufacturer? 


Andre

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## J.G. Hopkins

CSA, Boyle, Gamble & MacFee saber bayonet?

Jonathan 

(You should have posted this in the discussion thread!   :Stick Out Tongue: )

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## A.Ducote

> CSA, Boyle, Gamble & MacFee saber bayonet?
> 
> Jonathan 
> 
> (You should have posted this in the discussion thread!  )



Correct -- and maybe I wanted my own discussion thread.   :Stick Out Tongue: 

Andre

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## J.G. Hopkins

> Correct -- and maybe I wanted my own discussion thread.  
> 
> Andre


I guess you had to leave the nest eventually!   :Smilie: 

Did the CSA manufacture and use many sword bayonets?  I imagine the zouave units had them.

Jonathan

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## Mark McMorrow

> ... and maybe I wanted my own discussion thread.  
> 
> Andre


now that that's settled  :Stick Out Tongue: ...

actually, it would probably be more lively if we didn't spread the sword bayonet stuff too thin.

... and Andre, can you make the bayonet ID a little more challenging next time?  :Wink:

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## David gray

Ok I know this isn't a sword bayonet but with all the attention this thread is getting it seemed like a good idea to add it here. I bought this in Australia 35 years ago and still don't know it's origin, does anyone know? Blade is 10 inches, please and thx. David.

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## N White

David, if you don't mind, what's the maker on your Gras?  It's a matter of curiousity to me, certain ones seem to turn up more often than others, and so far I have only seen one source that identifies a specific rarer maker. (L. Deny).  Most I see are St.Etienne.

Also on the subject of French manufacturers, any francophiles able to tell me the maker Chirt " ?  Its similar to the abbreviation for Chatellerault  (Chat "), but my bayonet clearly says   Mre" d' armes de Chirt"  mau 1875.  See below.  EDIT  Looking around on the net more, I found a few Chat marked blades that the engraver did not connect the top of the "a" on... none as bad as mine but I think that's what happened on mine- sloppy cursive.  -For the record I have 3 Etiennes, an L.Deny and this Chatellerault.

Thanks, 

Nick

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## N White

David, it's German, looks like a German 84/98 bayonet.  No muzzle ring = german or used by germans.  The 41cul is a WW 2 manufacturer's code- according to http://www.donet.com/~mconrad/bcncode.htm

cul- Ernst Pack und Sohne, Solingen the 41 should be the year. (1941)

Here are my 2 for comparison.

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## David gray

Many thx Nick, I've been asking and looking all these years and after five minutes on here there's my answer. The Gras maker is St.Etienne, thx again, David.

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## A.Ducote

> I guess you had to leave the nest eventually!  
> 
> Did the CSA manufacture and use many sword bayonets?  I imagine the zouave units had them.
> 
> Jonathan



Mark settled the quarrel.  

As to your question, I've not seen production figures, but I think its more likely that sockets were carried.  However, there were a few manufacturers of them. 

As duly noted, Boyle Gamble & MacFee of Richmond, VA, made a few different versions including a bayonet/bowie knife combination.  Cook & Brother in New Orleans, LA, made a few sabre bayonets. Examples marked to the Georgia Armory in  Milledgeville, GA (actually the state penitentiary) are known to exist.  Many pre-war US  patterns were also used as well as import bayonets which came with rifles -- such as the Enfield or the Belgian.  I would imagine that the bayonet a particular soldier was issued depended greatly upon the firearm he carried.  

There really weren't that many CS zouave regiments -- the exception being a few from Louisiana. The most famous of those is Wheat's Tiger Zouaves. I don't know if the were issued shorter rifles and sabre bayonets as the Union zouave regiments tended to be issued.  My guess would be that the bayonet carried by a CS soldier depended more upon the rifle he was issued and availability than his dress.  Uninformity was attempted, but most likely not achieved especially early in the war when many Confederates went into battle with shotguns, flintlocks and smoothbore flintlock conversions.  As soon as a springfield or an enfield became available (many on the field), the older weapons were discarded along with their bayonets. 

Andre

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## N White

Well!  I was wrong!

Jonathan-

On the Old Smithy site I linked earlier- go to dedicated pages, then yataghan, then scroll down to Italy.

Pic below from the site-

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## J.G. Hopkins

Nick,
That is it!!  Thank you!  And hey, only 6000 were made--pretty neat.   :Smilie:   Now to find some more...   :Big Grin: 

Jonathan

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## Dennis East

I think the first one is a confederate s&k short sea marine.  There's one that looks identical to it at the civil war preservation web site.  The other I have no idea what it is. Not sure how to link to the site.  Hope this helps.

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## Dennis East

Here's an old french 1866 chespote, but a japanese honor guard issue.  The only spot not chromed is the crisanthimum mark.

The second is a turkish model 1874 sword bayonet.

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## Dennis East

here are a couple more.

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## A.Ducote

> I think the first one is a confederate s&k short sea marine.  There's one that looks identical to it at the civil war preservation web site.  The other I have no idea what it is. Not sure how to link to the site.  Hope this helps.



Good eyes, Dennis.  Reading the description on the site, it says that it is an enfield pattern bayonet for an enfield short sea service musket made under contract in Belgium.  The bayonet on that site has a serial number stamped on it as well as a series of dots.   The description does say that the Confederacy imported these bayonets for naval use.  

With that being said, i think that we need to be careful before we pronounced Jonathon's bayonet Confederate.  Many nations imported enfields during the time period of the Civil War, including the US and CS.  The bayonet would have come with the enfield musket. The only enfields generally accepted to be CS have the marking of JS over an anchor.  

I'm not sure what makes the bayonet on the website Confederate, but it may have something do to with the serial number or the dots.   Some arms have been traced to the Confederacy by serial number. I don't know if that tracing works with enfields.  Others bear simplistic markings such as Roman numberals or a pattern of dots.  

My suggestion is to contact the dealer and find out more about the bayonet that they have.  Confederate edged weapons are quite rare and fetch amazing high prices.  Confederate naval edged weapons are even more scarce.  

Andre

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## J.G. Hopkins

Dennis, 
Thanks for the lead!  I will contact CW Preservations per Andre's recommendation.  I think it would be hard to say whether the Union or Confederacy would have used the bayonet, but it seems possible that the bayonet saw service during the ACW.

Thanks again!

Jonathan

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## Mark McMorrow

> ...The bayonet on that site has a serial number stamped on it as well as a series of dots....  
> 
> I'm not sure what makes the bayonet on the website Confederate, but it may have something do to with the serial number or the dots.   Some arms have been traced to the Confederacy by serial number. I don't know if that tracing works with enfields.  Others bear simplistic markings such as Roman numberals or a pattern of dots... 
> 
> Andre


Interesting points, Andre.  I'll wait until you start that thread on Confederate edged weapons before posting pics germane to the dot markings (as the illustrative edged weapon is not a bayonet).

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## A.Ducote

> Interesting points, Andre.  I'll wait until you start that thread on Confederate edged weapons before posting pics germane to the dot markings (as the illustrative edged weapon is not a bayonet).


That sounds like a strong hint.  Ok . . . 

Andre

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## J.G. Hopkins

Does anyone own any "dress bayonets" for parade purposes?  The ones I have seen for sale have been German and have portepees.  Were these issued at the time of a parade or did soldiers maintain both a service bayonet and a parade bayonet?  George Wheeler?   :Big Grin: 

Jonathan

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## N White

Ask and ye shall recieve-

Here's my happy little dress bayonet.  It's German and of several different types, is the plainest.  No fancy fullers, stag grips here.  Researching mine it seems they were private purchase.  I have no knot for it, but there is a felt insert in the lug slot, it's green.  Other than mine I have only seen red inserts so I am unsure if the felt is original.

For comparison, next to one of my 84/98s

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## J.G. Hopkins

Thanks, Nick!  The dress bayonet really contrasts with the other service bayonet.  Would this one originally have had a knot?

Jonathan

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## N White

Whether mine specifically did, I don't know, but my best reference book has pictures of several of the type with a knot, and the proper way to wear it thus.

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## George Wheeler

> Does anyone own any "dress bayonets" for parade purposes?  The ones I have seen for sale have been German and have portepees.  Were these issued at the time of a parade or did soldiers maintain both a service bayonet and a parade bayonet?  George Wheeler?  
> 
> Jonathan


You guys have opened a can of worms!   :Wink: 

First, you open the huge subject of saber bayonets and now service and parade bayonets.  Yes, Jonathan I own a few bayonets.   :Wink: 

The Germans did have service bayonets that were items of issue.  Most were worn with bayonet knots.  Officers wore a Portepee style of knot while NCOs and enlisted men wore a Troddel or a Faustriemen.  "Dress bayonets" were usually privately purchased by the soldier and could be worn off duty with "walking out dress" or on duty if the bayonet outwardly matched what was issued.  That is to say, if a NCO was issued a KS98 and wanted something better than issue quality he could buy one with a "Rememberance of my time in Service" etched blade and wear it on or off duty.  Officers could also wear bayonets and every once in a while you will even see a General Officer wearing one in lieu of a sword or dagger.  

The Kurtzes Seitengewehr (KS98) by Pack that N. White shows is the long model with a 25cm blade that was worn by enlisted men.  NCOs wore the short model KS98 with a 20cm blade.  Probably 90% of these KS98 that are encountered were private purchase bayonets.  KS98 that can be shown to be items of issue will have property markings on them.  The correct knot for this long KS98 is an enlisted Army Troddel or an Air force Faustiemen.  The green insert in the lug slot is proper and would indicate the bayonet belonged to an enlisted man in either an Army Jäger-Formation or an Air Force Flieger-Aufsichtstruppen unit.  I just posted a chart of various knots on another thread and here it is again.

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## J.G. Hopkins

George,
Thanks for the information on knots used for German dress bayonets.  When did Germany make the switch from sword bayonets to shorter more dagger-like bayonets?  Around the turn of the century (like other European nations)?

Thanks,
Jonathan

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## J.G. Hopkins

Robert (Wilkinson-Latham),
You know a thing or two about British bayonets. :Wink:   To what extent was Wilkinsons (or Mole) involved in the design of hilted bayonets?  Were these strictly government designs?  

Thank you,
Jonathan

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## George Wheeler

> George,
> Thanks for the information on knots used for German dress bayonets.  When did Germany make the switch from sword bayonets to shorter more dagger-like bayonets?  Around the turn of the century (like other European nations)?
> 
> Thanks,
> Jonathan


The Germans started moving from sword bayonets to shorter, and thinner, blades with the S98 in 1898.  These bayonets fit the new Mauser system rifles and carbines as did almost all those models that followed.  The Seitengewehr 98 still had a long blade of around 520mm (20 1/2") but was a narrow quillback form.  These did not last much into WWI as they were ungainly and the long leather scabbards tended to break in the trenches.  The KS98 was adopted in 1901 and it was a true knife bayonet with around a 253mm (10") blade.  This is the model that was shown above and continued in use until the end of WWII.  Two very similar bayonets were adopted in 1902 (S98/02) and 1905 (S98/05) and these were the so-called butcher blade bayonets with flat blades of around 427mm (16 3/4") with swelled tips.  The S84/98 bayonet (often incorrectly called the K98) was adopted around 1905.  This bayonet was first made from reworking old S71/84 bayonets and then entirely new ones were constructed during WWI from about 1915 onward.  These continued in production through 1945 and had blades of around 370mm (15") and were also a true knife bayonet.

The S98 on the left has an Imperial NCO Troddel.  The Imperial/Weimar period KS98 next to it has a sawback and a NS Zeit enlisted Troddel.  The S98/05 is one that was siezed by the Poles and used by them interwar and then recaptured by the Germans who left the Polish pommel designation and smooth Polish replacement grips intact but blued it and put it back into German service during WWII.  The S84/98 on the right is an unmarked commercial version without military proofs made during WWII.

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## N White

George, thank you for the additional info on my bayonet, as well as reassuring me the green felt is correct.  

As for british bayonets, I'd love to hear about whatever guy came up with the mark I number 7- I love it but its such an oddball.  Mine has a circled P next to its year of make- I read somewhere this is the mark for "Poole"?

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## Mark McMorrow

Interesting saw back, George.

Here's one of mine.  This one is made by A. Wingen Jr., Solingen. The checkered horn grip has an Imperial cypher affixed.

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## Mark McMorrow

Chassepots, with a difference...

All are Colonial/Naval issues, with anchor stamps on the guard.

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## George Wheeler

Mark,

Four very nice French Chassepot saber bayonets with Yatagan blades!  It is all in the markings and your anchor marked ones are super.  

I also like your Imperial KS98 sawback very much.  I can't quite make out the cypher.  Is it Frederick Wilhelm?  Unfortunately some dilbert sharpened my nickeled KS98 sawback before I got it.  It does not look quite as bad in person as it does in the photograph.  It is unmarked but it is a large size private purchase with grip screwbolts instead of rivets. 

Here is a later sawback by Anton Wingen.  This one not only is a short Officer/NCO sawback but has very nice stag grips.  This KS98 is from the late Weimar Republic or early NS Zeit.  The Troddel is for a NCO and oddly enough has a modified crown with aluminum cordng instead of the normally seen green & aluminum wire cording.  I presume this must have been modified by some senior Sergeant who wished to identify his position.

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## J.G. Hopkins

Mark,
Great selection of Chassepot bayonets!  What a great niche of collecting within the wide world of Chassepot bayos.

George,
Thank you for sharing more of your fantastic collection.  You should write a book or something.   :Wink: 

Here is the last of my sword bayonets, a humble French M1874 epee bayonet for the Gras rifle.  The serial numbers on the guard and scabbard match, and the spine bears the date 1877.

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## Mark McMorrow

> Four very nice French Chassepot saber bayonets with Yatagan blades!...


Thanks.  They are pretty interesting.  One has the scarce 'Balloon' marking on the ricasso.




> I also like your Imperial KS98 sawback very much.  I can't quite make out the cypher.  Is it Frederick Wilhelm?


Yes.  This one looks like its seen some service, but it has a lot of character.

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## Larry Thomas

I think that the second bayonet might well be intended for a *Liege-produced rifle*. The main giveaway is the screw holding the spring rather than a rivet and the disc-shaped quillon end. Squared fuller ends are said to be typical of early production French 1842's.

At least one infantry unit (from Pennsylvania or Massachusetts, I think) carried these large calibre "Vincennes" rifles with sabre bayonets.

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## N White

Well, Tuesday night is auction night around here, and tonight was a good one.  First up was a british 1907, one originally made without the quillion, (Sept 1918) in better condition than my 1st one.  

The second one is pictured below.  It's a Japanese training bayonet.  It is DULL (as in rounded edge), crude, and has no arsenal marks.  The press catch is particuarly nasty, which is apparently a hallmark of this type.  A nice, and uncommon addition.

The last pic is my finger next to the "sharp" edge for perspective, to emphasize how blunt it is.

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## Robert Wilkinson-Latham

Jonathan
Wilkinsons did get involved early on having input into the Elcho but later bayonets not really. They were instrumental in getting two brass 'bolts' for the 1888 instead of the 2 small I large of the design. Other than that there was little involvement until WW2 when they perfected the design for the No 5 bayonet (Jungle Carbine) and had considerable input into the design and function of the No 7.
origially the designs from Cheshunt were A and B. A had a fixed grip with the barrel going inside the grip *Similar to the SA80 today) while the Pattern B had a raised pommel which was very similar to the 'Spike' bayonet pommel.  Wilkinson's engineers, especially Charlie Rose, designed it so that the pommel swivelled and locked in the 'up' position to fit the barrel of the No 4 Rifle and the 'down' position where it could be used as a fighting knife.




> Robert (Wilkinson-Latham),
> You know a thing or two about British bayonets.  To what extent was Wilkinsons (or Mole) involved in the design of hilted bayonets?  Were these strictly government designs?  
> 
> Thank you,
> Jonathan

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## Robert Wilkinson-Latham

In  WW2 Wilkinsons had  considerable input into the design and function of the No 7 bayonet.
Originally the designs from Cheshunt were A and B. 
A had a fixed grip with the barrel going inside the grip (Similar to the SA80 today) while the Pattern B had a raised pommel which was very similar to the 'Spike' bayonet pommel.  
Wilkinson's engineers, especially Charlie Rose, designed it so that the pommel swivelled and locked in the 'up' position to fit the barrel of the No 4 Rifle and the 'down' position where it could be used as a fighting knife.
You are correct circle and P is RSAF Poole
Robert



> George, thank you for the additional info on my bayonet, as well as reassuring me the green felt is correct.  
> 
> As for british bayonets, I'd love to hear about whatever guy came up with the mark I number 7- I love it but its such an oddball.  Mine has a circled P next to its year of make- I read somewhere this is the mark for "Poole"?

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## N White

This past week I went to the Brimfield antiques show in Brimfield mass to hunt for bayonets.  Early in the day I picked up a French Lebel, but little else struck my fancy.  Finally, on the way out back toward the car I spied this- a 1869 dated Chassepot with a German frogstud.  I was able to bargain the guy down to half what he wanted.

From what I have read, this bayonet was probably captured during the Franco-Prussian war and reissued as a sidearm for a German official.  It's also the earliest date Chassepot I have acquired so far, so I'm doubly lucky it seems- although the condition isnt perfect, and the tip was bent at some point, I'm very happy.

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## graeme gt

Can anyone shed light on inscription ? Wm cuthbertson  GSS thanks .

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## J.G. Hopkins

A fellow forumite was asking me about this pattern bayonet:



It looks like a crude baker bayonet, but the description states that it is a P1837 sword bayonet for the Brunswick Rifle.  I had a look through my meager bayonet resources and did not find any information.  Can anyone offer any information on this pattern?

Thank you,
Jonathan

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## N White

I'm with you, Jonathan.  Looks like an ugly baker to me.  Maddox's 'Collecting Bayonets' has 2 pictures of Brunswick and they look more like brass hilted gladiuses- slightly wasp wasted with no D guard.  The section on Bakers says Nepal made ones sometimes look "nasty", and the author says he has seen 5 brass variants.  

My .02,

waiting for the experts, happy to be proven wrong.

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## Rob E. Ozias

on January 16th,a local auction house had what they described as a Paris-Oudry 1878 bayonet with a soldiers name engraved on it and dated 1904. I have no idea what they got for it but they expected $300 - $325.

I really have no interest in bayonets but decided that, if they fetch prices like that, I should know more about them since I run across them now and again.  Amazon has a book appropriately titled "Bayonets" by Martin Brayley.  Is that a good resource book or are there better ones?

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## N White

Robert- it is a good book,  with photos and covers many common bayonets.  It is sorted by country and gives a good basic background to what usually turns up.  That said, if you are looking for comprehensive coverage look elsewhere, but the specialized books are usually far more expensive and/or out of print or not in english in some cases. 

 Bayonets From Janzen's Notebook is considered a bible of sorts, but has few pictures, mostly line drawings, but covers many more.  It can be found for $75 or less with careful looking.  Jim Maddox's Collecting Bayonets that I mentioned above is simply an exercise in wonder, with many pictures of rare or one of a kind bayonets not seen elsewhere, but skips mentioning many more common types to focus on the unique and scarce.  These are the most readily available general books that I can recommend, good for finding out what something is and a small history in most cases.  Much information is available online as well.

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## Shawn Gibson

First of all, What a wonderful thread.  I'm the President of the Society of American Bayonet Collectors, so this thread caught my eye as soon as I joined the forum.

The first bayonet is a CW import.  These have been badly misidentified in all of the early bayonet texts.  They are made in Germany to fit a minie rifle that was being made in Liege for Brazil.  They were redirected to the US during our CW.  I'm sure there is a way to tell by the markings if your bayonet was actually used in Brazil or in the US, but I haven't figured it our yet.  These are most often listed as Sea Service Enfields. (not at all correct).  

The second bayonet is identified by Calamandrei as a Napolean Bersaglieri bayonet.  What confuses me about this is the regimental marking on the crossguard.  As someone pointed out it looks a bit like German unit markings, but it is not.  It is appears to be Danish or Norwegian.  I've not seen Italian markings like this at all.  It needs a bit of research, a nice mystery.

On the Crude Baker.  These are late 19th century Nepalese copies of the Baker bayonet made to fit on Nepalese smoothbore copy of the Brunswick rifle.  Hence the confusion.  It is derived from the Baker, but fits on a long arm derived from the Brunwick.  There are several variations to the hilts on these bayonets and they are quite common at the moment.  They were imported in large numbers on the last Nepalese aresenal horde.

Shawn

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## Mark McMorrow

Howdy Shawn.  Thought your name looked familiar  :Wink: 

Mark ~

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## Shawn Gibson

Yes, I've wanted to join for a while.  I must have found the site right after you closed to new members for awhile.  I just noticed yesterday that you had the problem fixed and jumped in.

Shawn

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## Richie B

Hello Shawn

Welcome aboard.

I definitely recognise your name - you forced  :EEK!:  me to part company with some of my hard earned money for some interesting bayonets.

Richie

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## J.G. Hopkins

Hello, Shawn, and welcome to the forum!   :Smilie:   Thank you very much for the information on my bayonets!  I have never given them the research attention they perhaps deserve.  I bought them both as a young collector, and have since focused on British swords.  I have always liekd them both, so they've stayed in my collection in spite of the occasional purging of items not related to my main interests.

Jonathan

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## George Wheeler

> First of all, What a wonderful thread.  I'm the President of the Society of American Bayonet Collectors, so this thread caught my eye as soon as I joined the forum.
> 
> The first bayonet is a CW import.  These have been badly misidentified in all of the early bayonet texts.  They are made in Germany to fit a minie rifle that was being made in Liege for Brazil.  They were redirected to the US during our CW.  I'm sure there is a way to tell by the markings if your bayonet was actually used in Brazil or in the US, but I haven't figured it our yet.  These are most often listed as Sea Service Enfields. (not at all correct).  
> 
> The second bayonet is identified by Calamandrei as a Napolean Bersaglieri bayonet.  What confuses me about this is the regimental marking on the crossguard.  As someone pointed out it looks a bit like German unit markings, but it is not.  It is appears to be Danish or Norwegian.  I've not seen Italian markings like this at all.  It needs a bit of research, a nice mystery.
> 
> On the Crude Baker.  These are late 19th century Nepalese copies of the Baker bayonet made to fit on Nepalese smoothbore copy of the Brunswick rifle.  Hence the confusion.  It is derived from the Baker, but fits on a long arm derived from the Brunwick.  There are several variations to the hilts on these bayonets and they are quite common at the moment.  They were imported in large numbers on the last Nepalese aresenal horde.
> 
> Shawn


Welcome Shawn.  I am glad that you found your way to the forum.  

George

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## J.G. Hopkins

Fans of OldSwords.com will be excited to know that Mark Cloke has introduced a new site for bayonets; 

OldBayos.com

 :Smilie: 

Jonathan

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## FredericC

Nick,

France had few "manufactures" (Arsenals) and most famous were located in the cities of "Saint-Etienne", "Chatellerault", "Mutzig", "Tulle". 

During time of war when the manufactures couldn't cope with demand, France gave contract to civilian factory/workshop to build the weapons. L Deny could be one of these civil factories. The marking could be also only the letter "X" but no manufacture names

You will find the similar marking on gun & pistols, cavalry body armor, sword & bayonet.

Last tip for French marking (a little of French history!)

1804-1815 : "Manufacture *Imp.* (Imperial) de .... + production date" during 1st Empire - Napoleon Bonaparte
1815-1824 : "Manufacture *Roy.* (Royal) de .... + production date" during King Louis XVIII
1824-1830 : "Manufacture *Roy.* (Royal) de .... + production date" during King Charles X
1830-1848 : "Manufacture *Roy.* (Royal) de .... + production date" during King Louis Philippe
1848-1852 : "Manufacture *Nat.* (National) de .... + production date" during President Louis Napoleon (Not yet Emperor) 
1852-1870 : "Manufacture *Imp.* (Imperial) de .... + production date" during 2nd Empire  Louis Napoleon III 
1871-1940 : "Manufacture *dArmes*  de .... + production date" during 3rd republic


Hope it will help!

Frederic

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## N White

Frederic- for the Gras I have found ten different markings, and I have 7 so far.

3 marks are German (2 different Steyr and Alex Coppel)
2 are French private contracts (Paris-Ordry and L. Deny)
3 are standard French aresenals (Chatellrault, St Etienne, Tulle)
the last 2 I have never seen but have been told about are apparently Chatellrault and Etienne made but for non French use, and are marked differently than French used.

One of the Steyr is for France one is for the Greeks, and nobody I have found is able to say with certainty who ordered the Coppel ones... although I saw somewhere Belgium suggested.

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## FredericC

Nick,

Going through the web, I found following information ;

Gras model Greek 
Made by Osterreichische Waffenfabriks Gesellshaft (OEWG), Steyr Austro-Hongrie in 1876 - M80

OEWG was the only manufacturer to have Gras contract with Greece consisting in 57.000 rifles + 6.000 carbines. They have been used by Greek army until the first world war.


I didnt find anything for the belgium one


Frederic

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## J.G. Hopkins

I found a nice, cheap French M1866 Chassepot (with matching serial numbers) on a dealer site, and could not resist asking about the cost of shipping to VT.   :Big Grin:   Nick White's occasional updates on his French bayonet collecting, and my daughter's recent urge to give "her" sword (a French M1874 Gras bayo) a wipe with the gun and reel cloth got me looking around at what was out there.  I was surprised to see so many over $150 when there was nothing remarkable about them.  When I found one in decent condition at half the cost of the average on eBay, I thought, "What the heck?  Why not get one?"  I will reply when I know that the bayo is still available and will also post some pics when it arrives (if I can get it).  There is something about brass handled bayos that I really like.

Speaking of brass handled bayonets, does anyone here own a Belgian 1868 Terssen Carbine sword bayonet?  I spotted one at the Old Smithy website and was very impressed!

And speaking of Nick White, how is the collection coming along?   :Smilie:   Anyone else?

All the best,
Jonathan

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## N White

Sadly this summer has been a dry spell.  Multiple illnesses/deaths among family and friends of family, so collecting has taken a back seat of late.  The last thing to come to me was that Gras modified for the GEW88 that I posted up last May.  I figure it evens out the dry spell, since I was lucky enough to get it for about a fifth of what a dealer would have asked for it.  Hopefully this fall will bring greener pastures!

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...ighlight=gew88

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## J.G. Hopkins

Nick,
I am sorry to hear about your tough summer.  Your latest addition is quite a nice find.  I hope that as the year progresses life gets better and you are able to find those missing pieces of the bayo puzzle!

Jonathan

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## J.G. Hopkins

> Chassepots, with a difference...
> 
> All are Colonial/Naval issues, with anchor stamps on the guard.


Mark,
I have just been doing some research on Chassepot bayonets.  What a huge field!  I had no idea there were so many makers and variations to look for.  Your very nice colonial issue bayos with anchor stamp came to mind when I found this tidbit at the Old Smithy site:




> The Weyersberg bayonets (kingshead) with naval anchor are not French issue but were made in Germany for Argentinean Naval Comblain rifle. SN has usually no letter and the anchor is not the French one style.


Anyhow, after looking through Old Smithy's huge page on the M1866 sabre bayonet, maybe M1874 epee bayonets are an "easier" field to collect(?).  Or maybe it is just as endless as other areas of collecting!

Jonathan

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## J.G. Hopkins

> The first bayonet is a CW import.  These have been badly misidentified in all of the early bayonet texts.  They are made in Germany to fit a minie rifle that was being made in Liege for Brazil.  They were redirected to the US during our CW.  I'm sure there is a way to tell by the markings if your bayonet was actually used in Brazil or in the US, but I haven't figured it our yet.  These are most often listed as Sea Service Enfields. (not at all correct).


Shawn,
Do you know if there is particular year designation for this Brazilian model?

Thank you,
Jonathan

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## N White

> Anyhow, after looking through Old Smithy's huge page on the M1866 sabre bayonet, maybe M1874 epee bayonets are an "easier" field to collect(?).  Or maybe it is just as endless as other areas of collecting!
> 
> Jonathan


At the very least Gras are less popular- in the past few months I have been told by three seperate dealers on three seperate occasions that they don't buy m1874 bayonets unless they have to as part of a lot or something because they are so "common".  I have only met one who acknowledged that some makers are rarer than others, and then he sold me a rarer marked one for cheap.  I don't understand it....

My theory is the fact that they missed any major (or well known) wars except as reserve weapons means they lack the fame and romanticism of something like a Martini Henry.  The obscurity is indeed one reason I chose to pursue them.  That, and the fact that they kind of grow on you after a while.

The big demand and money is in the conversions- some being very scare and desirable for reasons other than being Gras- Greek conversions, German conversions, South American conversions, Russian marked, etc.  The Germans alone modified them in a bunch of ways, some much more complicated than my example above.  I really need to get a book on that- so far I have not paid enough attention to conversions and my knowledge is lacking beyond generalities.

So yes, there is plenty to keep me busy past collecting the arsenals!

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## J.G. Hopkins

> The big demand and money is in the conversions- some being very scare and desirable for reasons other than being Gras- Greek conversions, German conversions, South American conversions, Russian marked, etc.  The Germans alone modified them in a bunch of ways, some much more complicated than my example above.  I really need to get a book on that- so far I have not paid enough attention to conversions and my knowledge is lacking beyond generalities.
> 
> So yes, there is plenty to keep me busy past collecting the arsenals!


Is there a title dedicated to this subject, or French bayonets in general?  

And while asking about books, I understand _Bayonets from Janzen's Notebook_ is a standard title in the field.  Are there any other, perhaps more recent publications, that are equally well-liked and respected?

Thank you,
Jonathan

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## Mark McMorrow

> Mark,
> I have just been doing some research on Chassepot bayonets.  What a huge field!  I had no idea there were so many makers and variations to look for.  Your very nice colonial issue bayos with anchor stamp came to mind when I found this tidbit at the Old Smithy site:
> 
> Originally Posted by Old-Smithy.info (per Pierre Renoux)
> The Weyersberg bayonets (kingshead) with naval anchor are not French issue but were made in Germany for Argentinean Naval Comblain rifle. SN has usually no letter and the anchor is not the French one style.
> 
> Anyhow, after looking through Old Smithy's huge page on the M1866 sabre bayonet, maybe M1874 epee bayonets are an "easier" field to collect(?).  Or maybe it is just as endless as other areas of collecting!
> 
> Jonathan


That's why I stick with the colonial/naval issues.  By the way, one of the bayonets in my pic is a balloon marked colonial/naval, with un-prefixed serial number.  This is a French issue and is attributed to Gustav Felix for Tulle and Mutzig.  BTW, also see Christian Mery's excellent site:

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/christian.mery/

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## J.G. Hopkins

Mark,
I think you chose a great nice within French bayos!   :Cool:   I wonder where they ultimatey saw service?

Nick,
Looking at your collection this this thread made me wonder--does it matter to you if a bayonet has a scabbard?  If it is rare enough, are you happy to just have the bayonet?  How important is it to you to have the serial numbers from the bayonet match those on the scabbard?

Just curious!   :Smilie: 

Jonathan

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## Mark McMorrow

> Mark,
> I think you chose a great nice within French bayos!    I wonder where they ultimatey saw service?
> 
> Jonathan


Anywhere the French fought, sailed, explored, colonized, etc.  China, Vietnam, North Africa...  Not to mention a few European affairs they were involved...

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## N White

> does it matter to you id a bayonet has a scabbard?  If it is rare enough, are you happy to just have the bayonet?  How important is it to you to have the serial numbers from the bayonet match those on the scabbard?
> 
> Just curious!  
> 
> Jonathan


Firstly, except for a very few exceptions, no Gras is really "rare".  

My outlook is what I would call pragmatic.  Matching numbers are great.  I will pay a slight premium over what I would otherwise consider fair for a match.  However, if I find a nice example that isn't, if the price is in line and I don't have it yet I will get it as a placeholder.  Case in point is my example marked Ursine de Steyr- no scabbard, slightly blunted tip, but otherwise beautiful shape, crisp engraving.  For 30 bucks?  Sure!  On the flip sideI once passed on a gorgeous matched example of a maker I had already, priced above what I thought reasonable. It was beautiful but so was the unmatched example I had already, so I wasn't willing to (to my mind) overpay.  

At that, my Tulle example is brown all over and barely legible.  It will do until a nice one comes along.  All that said, I would take an example with a snapped blade if it was the one maker mark I'm missing!  After all, it would do until another came along.  I suppose I have a soft spot for the ugly ducklings...

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## J.G. Hopkins

Nick,
I meant "rare" within the realm of Gras bayonets.  The Etienne bayonets seem to be the most common.  Mine is marked to that arsenal, as is the Chassepot bayonet that is on its way.  I need to get to a local militaria show at some point to scope out deals.  Online dealers and eBay sellers want more than I am willing to pay for an area of collecting outside of my main focus.  I may need to wait until Hartford in October (weekend of the 10th).

Jonathan

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## N White

Etienne is the most common Gras I see as well.  You will always find one.  Chatellault and Tulle seem to swap off as next most common along with Ursine de Steyr.  Waffenfabrik Steyr seems slightly less abundant along with Paris Oudry and L Deny Paris.  Alex Coppel marked are definately 3rd "rarest", and the 2 French commercial orders from Etienne and Chatellault are the hardest to find.  I havent seen the Etienne one yet.  (Know these by their lack of dates on the spine).

So, I suppose to fianlly answer your question from before, I'd gladly buy any of the last 3 in most conditions, matching or not.  I have not yet seen a 1874 dated example, and usually don't see many dated past 1881- So those also I would place priority on, as it were.   77-81 seem to be the years I see most, especially 79-81.  A lot of Steyr made ones are 1878.

Chassepot wise I have always meant to pick up a Mutzig example as that arsenal was only in operation before the Franco Prussian War, and production was ended due to France's loss.  

Sorry to be so long winded to answer a simple question!

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## Dennis East

Does anyone know how rare the Japanese issue chesspots are? Have one that has been chromed, along with the scabbard.  The only place that isn't chromed is the japanese flower marking.  Also have noticed that some scabbards have the bar hanger, while some have the studs.  What is the difference? A very interesting thread.  Aloha :Hyuk!:  :Big Grin:

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## J.G. Hopkins

Dennis,
I have only ever dabbled in bayonets, so please take my input with a grain of salt...

I have not personally seen any Japanese Chassepot bayonets offered for sale, but I have not really been actively looking at Chassepots for more than a few days.  Still, I would guess that in the world of M1866 bayonets, they are probably one of the more rare varieties.  The example pictured the Old Smithy site has kanji writing on the blade.  Do you have a photo of yours?

In my recent reading (at old-smithy.info, maybe) I learned that the stud on the scabbard is a German conversion.  Apparently the Prussians took a large number of these as part of war reparations from the Franco-Prussian War.  

Jonathan

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## Dennis East

These are  the only photos I have of it right now, don't have a camera right now, but am trying to get one.  Picked it up in a pawn shop in Fort Lauderdale about 6 years ago. Thank you for the stud information Jonathan, Have een wondering about that for years

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## J.G. Hopkins

Here are a few quick pics of my humble new French M1866 Chassepot bayonet made at St. Etienne in 1873:

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## niall dignan

I'm new to this technology so hope it works.Here is a collection of Chassepot bayonets in cronological order flanked by a M1874 Gras bayonet,dated 1877,on the left and a M1842/59 bayonet,dated 1865 to the right.The gaps in the first photo are for those needed to complete the sequence,'69 and '66.Still looking!! Why dates? The field is so large you need some ground rules and limits.
   All have matching numbers and are from various armories.They all have a story to tell.

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## N White

Impressive!  What is the latest date you have, 75?  

Incidentally, I have a 69, German captured and scabbard reworked.  While I look for Gras primarily, I have seen a couple 69 Chassepot within the past year or so, but all were German captures like mine.  Do look for just straight issued examples?

Good luck on finding your missing pieces!

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## Will Mathieson

I have found many Chassepot bayonets with 1870's dates, and have only one with 1869. Were there few made before the Franco-Prussian war or have collectors snapped the early ones up? Some marks on the scabbard look to be German and are opposite side of the French numbers. The 1869 is in surprisingly good condition. The 1842 at the beginning of this post is similar to one of mine that has a rabbit head mark of Fredrick Plucker, I have seen several different spellings for the name. I believe it was a German import for the American Civil War.

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## niall dignan

> Impressive!  What is the latest date you have, 75?  
> 
> Incidentally, I have a 69, German captured and scabbard reworked.  While I look for Gras primarily, I have seen a couple 69 Chassepot within the past year or so, but all were German captures like mine.  Do look for just straight issued examples?
> 
> Good luck on finding your missing pieces!


  The latest is dated St.Etienne Mars 1875 and the earliest Chat. Juillet 1867.
   I'm not too fussy whether they're German capture or not so long as the bayonet and scabbard are in good condition and have clear stamps and inscription.
   My collecting is usually a coinsidence of opportunity and resources,they don't always come together.I came across one dated 1866 recently but the bucket was already on it's way up out of the well at the time.You always expect another to come along at some stage.It's the frission of the game.



 If I may be permitted to continue the timeline the P1853 in the photo has a '66' stamped on the guard(date????) and the composite bayonet retaining device above that is stamped Enfield 1864.

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## Shawn Gibson

Dennis,

I have seen this photo floating around for awhile.  Basically, I really don't believe it is Japanese.  It is possible, but I'd have to see the marking photographed closely.  If it is all plated, but the mum.... This sounds like someone adding the marking to increase the value.  All the Japanese Chassepots I have seen or owned have had more markings than just the mum. 

Is there a maker and date on the back of the blade?

Shawn

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## P. Marin Cummins

I didn't have the time to read the entire thread thus far but I wanted to quickly add to it.  I just (today) discovered (thanks to this forum) that what I believed to be a sword was actually a French M1842 Sword Bayonet from 1854!

Unfortunately I also don't have a scabbard as I got it at a local auction.  I didn't even know what it was or that is was a part of the lot I was bidding on.  Talk about coincidence eh?

I haven't fully worked out attaching thumbnails yet (and my pictures are huuuge) so here's some photobucket links.

Now I've got another interest in sword bayonets. :Hyuk!: 

Of the engraving:
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...d/DSC00434.jpg
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...d/DSC00435.jpg
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...d/DSC00433.jpg
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...d/DSC00432.jpg
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...d/DSC00431.jpg

Of the hilt:
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...d/DSC00420.jpg
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...d/DSC00410.jpg
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...d/DSC00396.jpg
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...d/DSC00395.jpg
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...d/DSC00394.jpg


Of the blade:
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...d/DSC00407.jpg
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...d/DSC00398.jpg
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...d/DSC00397.jpg

EDIT:
Forgot to add that I'll read the entire thread some other time, I have to run right now!

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## Dave Maude

> This thread is dedicated to discussing and sharing photos of sword bayonets.  The bayonets can be from your collection or just a bayonet in which or have an interest or a question.
> 
> To start, below are two mid 19th century sword bayonets from my collection.  I have had trouble pinning each of them down exactly, so I will do my best to provide accurate information.  I am very open to corrections!
> 
> First is what I have seen called an "1855 Mississippi" sword bayonet.  It is marked S&K, for Schnitzler & Kirschbaum, on one side of the forte, while the other side is struck with an anchor.  I do not have a scabbard for this one.  Does the 1855 Mississippi description seem appropriate?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is the first time in 15 years of looking that I have run across a match to a Civil War saber bayonet that originally belonged to my great grandfather (23rd Ohio).  It is an exact match to what you called a Model 1842.  I have been told by at least one government historian that it fit a Colt revolving rifle but am somewhat skeptical.  Do you have any more info on this particular bayonet?

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## Will Mathieson

The first bayonet pictured with S&K and a second thin fuller is described as a 1855 Colt revolving rifle bayonet by Janzens. I have seen several sell on ebay over the years all without scabbard.

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## Will Mathieson

This is a french 1842 bayonet, has the French scabbard frog attachment. Other similar 1842 looking bayonets were made in Germany for the US Civil War. The US was sold tons of second class arms from Europe, a good way to dispose of them.
The rifled mini was considered the best of the time along with any breech loaders.

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## J.G. Hopkins

Both of my bayonets were identified by Shawn Gibson:




> First of all, What a wonderful thread.  I'm the President of the Society of American Bayonet Collectors, so this thread caught my eye as soon as I joined the forum.
> 
> The first bayonet is a CW import.  These have been badly misidentified in all of the early bayonet texts.  They are made in Germany to fit a minie rifle that was being made in Liege for Brazil.  They were redirected to the US during our CW.  I'm sure there is a way to tell by the markings if your bayonet was actually used in Brazil or in the US, but I haven't figured it our yet.  These are most often listed as Sea Service Enfields. (not at all correct).  
> 
> The second bayonet is identified by Calamandrei as a Napolean Bersaglieri bayonet.  What confuses me about this is the regimental marking on the crossguard.  As someone pointed out it looks a bit like German unit markings, but it is not.  It is appears to be Danish or Norwegian.  I've not seen Italian markings like this at all.  It needs a bit of research, a nice mystery.

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## Will Mathieson

Good to know, as I have the same pattern as the first one shown. My last post referred to Daves bayonet at the bottom of the your other 2 pictured. 
I had no idea what your second one was, the markings are different than what I have seen and the muzzle ring finnial has a unique shape.

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## Roy Hamilton

Through the years I have picked up an assortment of bayonets, some to fit my rifles, and some just because they were there.
I will add a few photos of some of them that fit this catagory.

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## Roy Hamilton

Here are a few more.
Roy

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## Roy Hamilton

And yet a few more.
Roy

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## Roy Hamilton

I have lots more but will make this the last for tonight.
Roy

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## Will Mathieson

a good reference you would like is the book "Bayonets of the Remington Cartridge Period" by Jerry L. Janzen. 
Covers different countries, scabbards and markings. Has more info than many other bayonet books.

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## Roy Hamilton

Thanks Will, I have a few books on Bayonets, but really haven't got around to making a list and indentifying them.  Counting both long and short bayonets, I probably have close to about 70 from all nations.  I have 8 Japanese bayonets varying fron very nice to a very crude last ditch production with a wood scabbard wrapped with twine.  Just in bayonets for the Number 4 Mk I Enfield, I think I have about 5 different ones from round spike, through cruciform spike, to blade.  When I was young (many moons ago) most gun shops had wooden barrels by the door full of bayonets for $1.00 each, your choice.  As I have said, when I get a rifle, I always try to get the proper bayonet, and sometimes it has worked in reverse.  As you can see from the photos, most of the bayonets are just as I got them.  When I finish with my swords, both with their proper ID, and History as far as I know it, I will start on the bayonets.
Here are a few more photos.
Roy

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## Roy Hamilton

Another batch.
Roy

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## Roy Hamilton

And again.  The last photo is of some of my German dress bayonets, along with SA,and SS daggers in a wall display.  If anyone is interested in the German Dress Bayonets, I think I have 7 or 8 which I could photo separately.  These are not Sword bayonets, as is what this thread is about.
Roy

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