# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  WYATT,  Philadelphia maker? Looking for info

## Will Mathieson

I am looking for information in regards to Wyatt, an American sword maker or assembler. Stamped on this sword blade 'WYATT"
Any help is appreciated.

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

Joseph Wyatt Philadelphia, Pa 1797 to 1798 Silversmith that mounted swords ASASM Bezdek chapter 6 but your sword looks like it pre dates 1797 more like 1775 to 1785. Of course surely he made swords more than one year but I am sure Bezdek took that from an advertisement in an old paper or add bill. Looks like Revolutionary War infantry sword. But don't see a lot of it.

----------


## Glen C.

I don't see mention of the name for America's usual suspects in several books.  I did not paw through Neumann though.  The name is not found in Peterson, two Bezdek books, nor in the Lattimer collection or Medicus collection. 

I have seen a number of British slotted hilts with additional bars.  Can you post a picture of the entire sword?  I have not checked what few British name are listed in the older Mowbray's book on eagle pommels but they would be later than that form.


Edit
Ha! Where in Bezdek. I must be going blind.

Cheers

Hotspur; _good job Eric_

----------


## Will Mathieson

Here is a whole picture of it. 35 1/2 inch blade so I believe cavalry

----------


## Glen C.

An ancestry list has him dying by 1798

----------


## Glen C.

Joseph Wyatt 


Son of William Wyatt of Rotherhithe Wall in the County of Surrey miller, apprenticed to William Suddell of Pelican Court Little Britain as silversmith 8 April 1778. Free, 4 May 1785. Mark entered as small worker, 1 October 1789. Address: 12 Angel Street, St. Martin's Le Grand. Heal records him as goldsmith, Angel Street, 1790.

http://www.koopmanrareart.com/Deskto...artistid=23944

Philadelphia/ American silversmiths
https://books.google.com/books?id=70...rsmith&f=false

From Archive .org
http://archive.org/stream/makersofea...0ensk_djvu.txt

I am seeing reference for London past 1800

Bi-oceanic? Coincidence? Or brokered in America as imports? Another generation?

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

RW period horsemans sabre. Most have flat, double or wide fuller not single small fuller like short infantry swords. Wow the two branches on a slot hilt is nice, don't see them everyday. I agree with Glenn on the British look of it but even the Potters are a British invention I suppose. I just don't see this style that late. If made 1796 thats 10 years after 1788 pattern. How old was he in 1798 when he died, Glen? I really don't have a grasp on these swords but they are a favorite. I would suppose the turn of the century slot hilt eagles were a descendent of the hilt style. Anyway it looks to be in terrific shape scabbard and all nice find Will. The clip point is very interesting kind of an American trait. Eric
And absolutely a calvary sword, my bad I never thought it that long.

----------


## Glen C.

The repeated 1797-98 Philadelphia appears to be sourcing from this 1920 reference for silversmiths. No other data available from it. I have little doubt the dates simply from an annual city directory (hence no further data).
http://books.google.com/books/about/...d=u8oDAAAAYAAJ

The genealogy page I had seen last night (as is Ancestry.com) is pulling the dates from the same source.

Clipped blades are a European continent trait. Slotted hits? Well, there is a multiple page thread pinned at the head of this section. I would regard neither singular to a particular country but Wyatt does seem to be a surname of English origin.  If I find more on either side of the pond, I will add it.

Oldswords lists a Wyatt&Bush with no known location or firm date but an auction description for a Victorian era sword

_A sword with the following description was sold by 'Gorringes [Lewes]' auction house on 16/04/2003 08:41:34.

A Victorian cut steel dress sword, the etched blade inscribed by the maker Wyatt & Bush, the guard grip and knuckle guard applied with cut beads, black leather and steel mounted sheaf and outer soft case, 38ins E100-150_

I find a reference for that firm as a tailor's shop.
_October 05, 1867 - London City Press - London, London, Engl

 Mesars. WYATT and BUSH, Tailors 20, St. Martin'a-le-Grand_



http://search.findmypast.com/search/...lastname=wyatt

Also from Oldswords and drawn from threads here at SFI

1827 British infantry sword
_Scabbard throat marked WYATTS REGISTERED NO. 20052. Scabbard made of leather and wood with nickel plated brass with a leather frog strap._

P1897 British
_The leather field service scabbard is ruggedly handsome with its metal furniture. The locket is stamped Ã¢â‚¬Å“WYATTÃ¢â‚¬â„¢S REGISTERED No. 20052Ã¢â‚¬Â. I am guessing this is a patented design, and the number refers to a patent number since this same marking appears on other field service scabbards of the period (mostly on scabbards for swords officers of the Indian Army)._

Cheers

Hotspur; _the Thurkle name lasted a long time as well_

re



> even the Potters are a British invention


The British needed swords, The swords were Potter's work

----------


## Will Mathieson

The pommel is not the same as the British 1788HC swords, they are elongated. Sourced in Philadelphia so it may well be Wyatt the silversmith, possibly more money in swords at the time.

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

I do have a couple of the 1788 patterns my favorite a relic condition Woolley 1788 pattern dated 1788. The pattern of your sword is more inline with the early horsemen of the previous decade. I did find on line horsemen sabres dated to the 1796 time frame that are very much similar to yours but with bone grip. So if their dating can be trusted these were made upto the turn of the century. The slot hilts are truly a pleasing to the eye sort a tad more so to me than the hussar calvary swords.

We were all British or a facsimile of at the Potter time frame, some more than others and if I understand correctly the blades were very likely inports hilted here. Was anyone here capable of the number of blades and quality made? I just don't know enough about them but love the chase. Eric

----------


## Glen C.

> We were all British or a facsimile of at the Potter time frame, some more than others and if I understand correctly the blades were very likely inports hilted here. Was anyone here capable of the number of blades and quality made? I just don't know enough about them but love the chase.


Re Potter

In the Potter thread I posted a pdf link for the most recent information I am aware of. Within that article are the notes of Potter hiring blade filers. Why would he need to hire filers to finish forged blades if the blades were imported?  :Wink:  Imported British and German blades were always pretty much ready to go.  

Yes, my own early American kin were Virginia and Mayflower types but there were others in vast numbers that were not English, particularly in NYC. 

Cheers

Hotspur; _the Potter hilt looks anything but English to me but what do I know?_

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

I do not deny they have an American crudeness in the guard with the sharp turn unlike the sword in this thread with a more rounded look. The slot hilt is a British invention or is it? I read somewhere that blades came in every form from billets to completed products and every thing inbetween. Filers would be needed for hilting  and for finishing blades. Potter turned out a lot of swords in a short time for production rates of the period. The US had no or few roll mills or trip hammers for fabricating. So in my mind he would have hade to have a huge work force to forge so many swords. I am not well read on Potter but have run across nothing to indicate aforging work force of that size. To forge a blade by hand and do a really nice consistent job takes a fair amount of time and work. Almost every tang I have ever looked at on US blades has been forge welded to add length which in it self is lots of work and filing. Every Ames Calvary sword for sure and all have the v check mark. They very well may have been made here you are way better read than I on the subject but with the War, limited work force, lack of machinery,  and quality of the product I canot wrap my head around it.

----------


## Glen C.

The debate on Potter (imo) needs to continue in the Potter thread, not ramble on here.  Eric, I hate to say again that I don't like to repeat my thoughts but I expressed my thoughts on slotted hilts. I expressed my thoughts on whether Potter blades are imported and have tried to stay on the topic regarding Wyatt. Now you wish to relate Ames particulars? C'mon man. 

Buried in the link I offered for ASOAC bulletins is an article on trade blades penned by Bazelon. Perhaps you'd like to start a separate thread about trade blades after browsing that link in the Potter thread.

Cheers

Hotspur; _show me that the earrliest slotted hilt was "invented" by the British and I'll stand up and salute_ :Smilie: 




> ASASM Bezdek chapter 6


Chapter 24, single line entry with no particulars.

----------


## Will Mathieson

Has anyone seen similar swords, I can't find any that match when I search and none the same on dealer sites. Maybe I'm searching the wrong description?

----------


## Glen C.

Nuemann's; Swords and Blades of the American Revolution

276s
Straight Gill marked blade
Egg shaped pommel
Listed date 1775-1785

Other examples I have seen have also been on both straight and curved blades. Sometimes on a more hussar grip and backstrap ala the Banastre Tarleton portrait (can't really claim that one to be slotted).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...a-Reynolds.jpg

Along the same lines.are the folding guard slotted hilts from across the channel and this one from Withers
http://www.antiqueswordsonline.com/e...-hanger-sword/

Oldswords has a couple of later slotted forms but again, not quite the same thing.

The pommel shown in you pictures is similar to earlier swords, predominantly baskethilts

Cheers

Hotspur; _extra branches/ half baskets on the bow counterguards following the same trend_

----------


## Will Mathieson

Thank-you Glen. I have just ordered a copy of Neumans. I can only imagine that each smaller producer of swords in this time period could only make limited amounts of swords.  Britain must of tried to cut the supply of arms and components at this time? Some would be smuggled through though. 
I do not have much information on this maker as to whether he just assembled parts or manufactured component parts. The guard and blade do appear well made.

----------


## Glen C.

An issue I see is that Wyatt is such a common name. Philadelphia (and England at large) list many Wyatts, even a street named Wyatt in Philly at that time in History.  We aren't looking at a silver hilt.  Wyatt (as a firm) may have been active before the revolution.

 We are assuming Philadelphia when it might not have originated there.

Cheers

Hotspur; _Nuemann's is a great book covering a century and more.  A good many attributions might be debated though. I'll try to add a snapshot of that one in the next day or so._

----------


## Will Mathieson

Yes an assumption of being the Wyatt in Philadelphia.  He does not appear in any of my British sword references that are fairly extensive.  
The blade tip is American style and the metal scabbard mouth is not typical British. Pommel is shaped more like a basket hilted sword as Glen mentioned.

I don't think a small unknown maker would be capable of producing such a quality sword in this time period. I think it is plausible that a silversmith could make swords since working in metal would require similar tooling and knowledge. In war time I don't think most makers would make silver hilted swords but rather more useful ones. 
 Still assumption until more information surfaces. A museum or collection somewhere must have a similar example.

Glen what quantities would a private maker have made during the revolution?  I would think a cavalry sword like this of decent quality would be made in relatively large quantity, at least in the 1000's ? or am I wrong?  To me the blade doesn't appear imported.

----------


## Glen C.

So far, we only see one  :Smilie:

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

While this is a hanger it is a very similar and American made hilt. I thought it might interest you. Wyatt is listed a  Silversmith who mounted swords. If the Joseph Wyatt in Bezdeks book is the correct one I really would doubt he forged blade or formed hilt. Silversmiths did mount swords and sell them but would not have equipment or tools to forge a blade unless also a blacksmith and the two are a long way apart. In 1797 buying a blade from Solingen or England would have been fairly simple. If in fact a RW piece then it would be some different. Who knows maybe he hilted swords before opening a silversmith shop which with the style of sword and hilt is very possible. 
Glen, Glen, Glen Bless your heart. We were talking about filers, the Ames mention is about filers needed for forge welded tangs and hilting. The Potters are slot hilts and we are talking about slot hilts. This sword is a slot hilt and I guess I do ramble on a bit, but you saying it is a bit like a pot calling a kettle black. I would ask you be civil to me or silent. You keep saying you do not like repeating yourself and no one is asking you too. Eric

----------


## Will Mathieson

Thanks Eric. Interesting that no cavalry swords can be found with similar hilt. Possibly cavalry swords were cut down for hangers? I particularly like the longer slightly curved blade with the clipped point? I think that's a accepted term for it. 
What you pictured is one of the few similar I've seen without the 90 degree bend in the guard.

----------


## Glen C.

Hi Eric




> Glen, Glen, Glen Bless your heart. We were talking about filers, the Ames mention is about filers needed for forge welded tangs and hilting. The Potters are slot hilts and we are talking about slot hilts. This sword is a slot hilt and I guess I do ramble on a bit, but you saying it is a bit like a pot calling a kettle black. I would ask you be civil to me or silent. You keep saying you do not like repeating yourself and no one is asking you too. Eric


Yes, in regard to the Potter swords. I don't feel asking the Potter discussion unworthy or unreasonable to be continued in the Potter thread.  You will admit we do go around in circles until information already presented by me is read by you a few times.  In that vein, take a close look at the Potter article and confirm you think those blades are imported. That seems to be your take on them.

What are your thoughts on the hilt on 276s? Listed as a horseman's saber.

Cheers

Hotspur; _thoughts scattered to the wind tend to dilute any concentration_

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

Will there are similar calvary swords with slot hilt and the bow type guard. Most are British.Non that I have seen with exact configuration of branches. But many with branches. I think if you do a search for Colonial Horsemans sabre or Revolutionary War horsemans sabre and possibly exchange horseman for calvary you will see similar swords. Non with clip point but that goes with 1897 date. The turn of the century to 1815 clip points were quite popular in the States. There are several horseman sabres in Weapons of the RW by Neumann  some with bow type and some with right angle. For me  American made horsemans in the condition of yours even if late for their time is a prize. I do not believe your blade was made in America but very few were. I do believe it was hilted and stamped here. We did not have the iron, equipment or skill at that time. Starr and others were making blades by this time but compare your blade to a 1798 Starr or a Rose for that matter. Yours is  very well made. The only thing for me is the clip point which I see as an American trait. Hard to say for sure with my limited brain power. Eric

----------


## Will Mathieson

I had first thought the sword was British. I didn't pay close attention to the details believing it was a British 1788 HC sword. Later I had more photos of the sword and realized it was something else. Pommel and grip shape are different as is the blade curving nearer the point and the tip profile. 
Blades with narrow fullers tend to be made by makers at earlier times before wider fullering was easily made. Fullers were difficult to produce and were first ground out. 
Later the Germans perfected a better method to fuller blades without the tedious time consuming grinding. I believe there is a possibility of the blade being made in America.
Philadelphia was a large city for the time, capable of supporting the making blades and swords, possibly a low production sword as we haven't found another alike.
I think the answer lies in finding more information about Wyatt. The sword being sourced in Philadelphia and a Wyatt that assembled swords in the time period is compelling even if not 100% possible.

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

Glen I cannot find any thoughts by you in Potter thread on Potter swords only links. I have no idea what you are talking about on slot hilts or what your thoughts are. I do not know if Potter made swords here in America but I doubt it as does Goldstein on page 98/64. Any way my reference in this thread early on about Potter swords being made by Brits was a reference to Potter being a Tory. I will endeavor to be more cautious about my wording as one never knows what will set you off. However I do doubt that they were made here by one forger and 3 filers. I do however believe they were hilted here but not being there I cannot be sure. Eric
I cannot find a 276s in Neumann's book.

Hotspur;*show me that the earrliest slotted hilt was "invented" by the British and I'll stand up and salute  Are you saying the Americans were making slot hilts prior to 1750?

----------


## Glen C.

Truly, and because of Goldstein's article, I doubt Potter would be asking for un-fullered blades from England  :Smilie:   Why import just such blades from England when the British ability to produce and transport more suitable swords dwarfs the capability of any colonial source.  Not to mention the very similar swords copying them.

I'll post up the other Neumann example shortly

Cheers

Hotspur; _repeating myself from an earlier post in this thread; Clipped blades are a European continent trait. Slotted hits? Well, there is a multiple page thread pinned at the head of this section. I would regard neither singular to a particular country_

----------


## Glen C.

Forgive my archaic 2mp camera

Nuemann's 276s




One might shake their heads at Neumann's typologies but there are other instances in the book that need editing and corrections, not unlike a lot of published work.  It may be why I haven't published much because I doubt a lot of my own findings at times.  Bezdek lists Wyatt lumped in with silversmiths he could find, not that he describes any of Wyatt's work outside of a chapter heading.

Cheers

Hotspur; _good catch on the Hanger by the way, I had dismissed hangers entirely_

----------


## Will Mathieson

I found a book by Neumann hiding in plain sight on my book shelf, maybe too many reference books? Never!  History of Weapons of the American Revolution.
It does show similar swords, some not similar but with the pommel shaped the same. I'll have to look at each description to see if Wyatt turns up. 
A silversmith, not so odd when you think of tailors, and several other trades getting in on the act. I have one British naval sword by a goldsmith who is well documented, one of his swords being in the Maritime Museum (UK). Still more infomis required I think to positively pin Wyatt as the silversmith of this sword.
Neumanns book does describe many times that the blades are imported, if not from Britain then France etc.

----------


## Glen C.

Yes, when I spotted generations of Wyatts in the same area of London, one has to wonder how their goods might spread.  More and more genealogy sources become available all the time.  There is a lot of Wyatt silver work out there, so why not send swords abroad with the silver, and pump it in Philly.

Cheers

Hotspur; _nice sword, anyway_

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

That one is listed as s88 in my book and closer yet to Will's. The hilt slots and thickness more inline. The photo and reference I posted was on my tablet and not from book I have with me. I do like a nice spadroon and it is marked to Gill. Eric

----------


## Glen C.

With 36"of blade, it's a bit more than a spadroon.  :Wink:

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

Forgive me, what type blade would you call it?

----------


## Glen C.

A backsword, pallasch, broadsword. It is the size of some of the older mortuary swords.  If you take a rib and half the basket, you kind of have a mort. This one shown has a fairly broad blade and a thin fuller along the back edge.  Look to Neumann's other horseman's swords.

Then again, some call curved blades with urns and stirrup hilts spadroons.

I would generally draw the line at 33"  Of a passel of spadroons here, only one is more than 32 1/2" of blade.

My backsword/spadroon Skinnier and a hand shorter.


Cheers

Hotspur; _what's in a name anyway?_

----------


## Will Mathieson

Earliest reference to slotted hilts:

----------


## Glen C.

Nice, one of the oldest and British.  :Smilie:

----------


## Will Mathieson

Has a marking stamped on guard and scabbard mouth, A/57. The blade thickness tapers evenly and the width narrows from the ricasso and swells towards the clipped point, and with the blade itself curved makes a very pleasing profile. The blade is sharpened 5" from the hilt. 
Not an inexpensive sword to purchase for your troopers. Somewhere there could be an illustration of a trooper from this regiment, if it showed his sword would be remarkable.

----------


## Will Mathieson

The leather strap around the scabbard mouth looking past the grime of time is white buff leather. Maybe I'm assuming it's American and it could be British?
Neumann shows similar British hilt designs dating from 1768-80 and this is pre British standard pattern swords. The sword could be a British dragoon regiment.
Most American swords are also unmarked, no name etc.
I'm just putting out the possibility.

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

American or British she is a beaut. While pommel and guard are well crafted the grip is spiral carved and a clip point. I would not call it either way but it is a nice looking blade. Does the blade show lots of imperfection. Eric

----------


## Will Mathieson

The blade other than some corrosion is dead straight and tapers evenly, well made.

----------


## Will Mathieson

A very similar hilt is pictured in Mazanskys book however it does not show the blade of any sword and appears to be an exercise in using the English language to describe the hilts. However the photos do a much better job of describing them and you could not re create a hilt from the text alone. Neither does it describe or picture blades as if they were not part of the sword. 
He states where they can be found but no information of who were issued or owned the swords. 
He states the Royal Armouries has over 200 of that type sword, mine has a flatter bun pommel and I have no idea the blade profile of the swords he mentions.

----------


## Will Mathieson

Found this sword claiming to date 1759, a light dragoon sabre, has similar blade less fuller, same style bun pommel but different construction and 33 inch blade.

Assuming this sword is pre revolution which British cavalry regiments were stationed in the Philadelphia area? My early history is not very strong.

----------


## Will Mathieson

I am leaning towards it being a British sword. 
The markings are stamped not engraved and the blade is fullered. Americans didn't have the capability of fullering blades in this period and unlikely to have metal stamps to mark them.
 Construction appears British and the quality is there. 

Mananskys British Basket Hilted Swords book page 194, IA2. has a very similar hilt.
Over 200 identical swords to the one illustrated is in the Royal Armouries collection, an example being IX.1848

Has anyone been there and seen these swords at the Royal Armouries? Mananskys book does not give any provenance/information and does not show or describe the blade.

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

While I do not disagree both of these are most likely British and the 1759 is a tad early in my mind for a sword of this caliber,  very shortly there after the Americans must have been making fullered blades albeit of less quality. Nathan Starr started as an apprentice in 1778 if I recall correctly and very early on he made artillery swords that were fullered. They have the sunken cartouche stamp. Jeremiah Snow also made fullered blades during revolution. I cannot right now think of other examples but will add as I do. I am not sure of British Calvary units in Philly as it seems to me the Calvary units were short on service in the states and the British relied heavily on infantry with Dragoon support especially in the areas they controlled. Most Calvary actions were in the southern campaign and were Loyalists and Light Dragoons. I do believe while not decisive clip points, grooved globe grips and single strand wire are indicators of American work or rehilt work but not always. I have seen solingen made swords that were changed to clip point and ofcourse Austrian and British blades that were clip point. Both swords you show are very well made and in Neumann Swords and Blades of American Revolution there is a sword with grip style very similar to the second sword you show. In fact lots British swords that have the grooved globe type hilts and even one or two with the hand hump in them. If it come from Philly it is either an American sword or was stuck in one. Eric

----------


## Will Mathieson

The grip appears round but is actually oval in cross section. Grip has two wires twisted together and what is difficult to see in photos on either side of the twisted wire one straight wire. The 1759 sword I just pictured for an example of similar blade.

----------


## E.B. Erickson

Here's another example of a British cav sword with an unfullered clipped point blade. This one can be seen in it's original context by searching this site for "British Slot Hilts for discussion". So far, this Wyatt sword is the only one I've seen that has a clipped tip and a fuller.

--ElJay

----------


## Glen C.

Here is that Manansky page posted in another thread. Bill Goodwin had posted it up some years ago.  Very similar hilt to the Neumann example.

----------


## Will Mathieson

I have that book and it does not show or describe the blade. It is the closest so far to a similar hilt. 
The outer bars at the side exit at a higher angle, the sword I have, the bars seem to flow from the guard and widen then narrow again.
Probably a small number made, with the number 57 on the guard we know at least that many were made.

----------


## Will Mathieson

Wyatt mark, same capital letters.

----------


## Will Mathieson

The possibility of this sword being made or assembled by the Philadelphia silversmith is promising. I believe it is possible this sword was for the First Troop Of Philadelphia. It is the only colonial and Revolutionary War cavalry unit still in existence and the oldest cavalry unit in the National Guard and the US Army.
In the swords time period there were 88 troopers, the swords number of 57 fits in nicely.
Small bits of information are coming in, actually more exciting than having it all in one shot.

----------


## Glen C.

> Wyatt mark, same capital letters.


What is the source of this?

----------


## Will Mathieson

http://www.925-1000.com/americansilver_W7.html

----------


## Glen C.

http://www.revolutionarywararchives.org/cavalry.html

----------


## Will Mathieson

here too: https://books.google.ca/books?id=70z...201798&f=false

https://archive.org/stream/makersofe...ge/24/mode/2up

----------


## Glen C.

> here too: https://books.google.ca/books?id=70z...201798&f=false
> 
> https://archive.org/stream/makersofe...ge/24/mode/2up


Yes, resources based on the book I referenced early on that others have drawn the date information from.

----------


## Will Mathieson

Yes that's true. I cannot find anymore on Wyatt but reference to the same.  This link: https://findgreatspaces.com/spaces/5...cavalry-armory  shows that they have swords similar on display.

----------


## Glen C.

https://findgreatspaces.com/system/a...jpg?1389038421

Is that the only picture?

----------


## Will Mathieson

Only picture, top sword is a slotted hilt but that's all I can see.
If not at least I'm ruling out some possibilities.

----------


## Glen C.

Enlarge it by 400%, quite different but keep in mind that they are likely just representive swords of several eras.

----------


## E.B. Erickson

Late response to Will's post of the 22nd> I saw those swords when they were still in the Tower in 1975. They were all straight blades, with one narrow and one wide fuller. While there may have been an unfullered curved blade somewhere on the racks, I can only recall straight ones. What did impress me was the uniformity of the blades, and all the little detail differences of the hilts!

--ElJay

----------


## E.B. Erickson

So in poking around on the web I found some other photos of related cav swords.

The first is almost a twin to the one I posted yesterday; it has a 33" blade. British.

The second has a brass slot hilt with a crude animal head pommel. 35" single fullered blade, no clipped point. Rev/post rev period, American.

----------


## Glen C.

There is a straight job currently on Ebay, supposedly captured in New Jersey from a British trooper.

----------


## Will Mathieson

I am strongly leaning toward American made sword. The blade is 9/32" wide at ricasso and 5/32" twelve inches from the hilt and tapering to 1/16" at the clipped point.
The fuller naturally is shallow and 5/16" wide twelve inches from the hilt.

----------


## Will Mathieson

The back edge of the point is curved and bevelled/sharpened and is 3" long.

----------


## Will Mathieson

Here is a British clipped point. All the British ones I find are double fullered with thicker blades http://www.robertfinan.co.uk/images30042005/010.jpg

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

The thing that sticks out the most to me is the pommel. It is shorter and chubbier than most. The pommel and guard look extremely well crafted but blade looks to have flaws. It appears to have been sharpened many times as it has the hilt to point straight bottom look. Does it have blade impurities or just in photos. What is American made? Would you consider Wolf or Wells swords American as they were possibly assembled here? Or like some of Horstmann's import blade with his hilt? It is very possible your sword is both American and British. Your fuller stops a long way from point which also is an American trait. Your grip does not appear to have deep grooved globes carved as some American swords have. The wire wrap is very British. By 1796 many Americans were making blades very similar to yours. All in all for me what a great thread. Eric

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

The Americans were making small fuller clip points. Starr, Rose and Nippes. Eric

----------


## Will Mathieson

The blade is relatively sharp but you cannot see any filing etc. except at ricasso. I would not say it has been sharpened a lot. The blade does have some small imperfection lines from the forging.

----------


## Glen C.

> Would you consider Wolf or Wells swords American as they were possibly assembled here?


A resounding...no. 

Both were importing entire swords, often marked to them by the makers in Birmingham.  The Upson Brothers as well imported completed swords. Spies and Wolfe swords stamped on the back almost certainly marked to them by the true makers.  One will find exactly the same swords exported by John Salter&Co (touted as a maker himself when he was shopping all available contracts to fulfill orders). By the 19th century, tensions between the states and England relaxed to the point where even during the war of 1812, English swords were still arriving in the states.  At any rate, all of these way past the point in time (imo) Will's sword was originally produced.

Even those actually mounting blades were relying on parts and blades from overseas See the Widmann example in Bazelon's article but read of the propensity of entire swords going to the US.  There is a lot more reading of trade and decoration in Mowbray's eagle old testament. Bazelon's article now hosted everywhere.  As a side note, don't confuse Welles in Boston with Lemuel Wells of New York.
http://www.cutandparry.com/98_bazelon_blades.pdf

The Medicus collection is also a good reference as a flash card deck.

Cheers

Hotspur; _I highly doubt the sword as late as the 19h century (remounted or not)_

----------


## Will Mathieson

These photos show perpendicular markings that are from manufacture (grinding/sanding?) they cannot be felt, the staining makes them pronounced.
Two parallel lines appear to be minor forging flaws and can barely be felt.
Eric what is "as it has the hilt to point straight bottom look"?  I don't see any marks showing multiple sharpenings ie: no file or grinding marks. 
The blade is relatively sharp. If this help,s from ricasso out for 11" the blade edge is flat (using a machined steel straight edge) then it gently curves, then more as it reaches the point.

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

The blade appears wider at ricasso and seems to widen again at point. Knives have a center thinning look when sharpened many years. The curve of the blade in center wears heaviest due to the nature of sharpening and less at point and ricasso. It is a minimal amount but your sword has that look. The examples I gave are not to date your sword but examples of different combinations of American and British partnership in American swords. There were all levels, amounts and combinations, yet all are American swords even those made over seas. The stamp on your blade would be a hard feat with hilt attached. Your sword also has the angled knife edge stop as many American swords do. The small fullered clip points I posted all within 10 years or so of yours if your 1796 date rings true. Eric

----------


## Will Mathieson

Should we or not discount the Wyatt silversmith of Philadelphia for mounting swords, this one in particular?  Or is this sword British?

 From Glens link:

"it is evident that arms
and their component
parts were standard articles
of trade. Sword
blades need to be considered
in the same class
as imported Ketland and
other European imported
arms as a typical item of trade. This explains the variety
of hiltings and scabbards present in American swords
manufactured in part by the silversmith who produced fine
hilt of precious metals to the country blacksmith.
This does not mean there was no American manufacture
of sword blades. These foreign imports competed with
American manufacturers such as Lewis Prahl and the Rose
family, both of Philadelphia. It is an anomaly of the way the
trade developed that Philadelphia, a center of blade production
from the Revolution through 1820, would acquire a similar
focus in the blade import, rather than blade manufacture,
trade during the next forty years. Even so, not all Philadelphia
swords of the 1790s contained blades made in Philadelphia
any more than all swords used in Philadelphia after 1820
employed imported blades"

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

I could not say British or American made. The hilt is a fine afair. Unlike what I see in most early American hilting, but Wyatt was a silversmith and would be used to detail and finish work. Your blade on the other hand looks hand made to me. To stamp a hardened blade is no easy process. I have stamped welds my entire life and clear stamps in hardened steel in awkward places is tricky as it is difficult to stamp legibly without causing stress and warpage. Looking at Wyatt silversmith stamp and this sword there seem to be similarities.  The small fullered blade with clip point is consistent with other American blades. I think you have the right man but he used trade parts for hilt. Actually that hypothesis fits well with American manufacturing at the time. It is however an opinion. What a nice sword. Eric

----------


## Will Mathieson

Eric you said it much better than I. 
You answered some questions such as "angled knife edge stop as many American swords do" and "The small fullered blade with clip point is consistent with other American blades". I have not seen nearly enough American swords to know what is consistent and not.
I am no expert on American swords and pointing out similarities one way or the other helps get to an answer.
I agree the stamping of his name would be difficult, I have used number and letter punches as an armourer in the C.F. and hardened steel does not help matters.
I would think Wyatt would have stamped the blade when forging it, before it was tempered?
The blade though thin is flexible but resistant to flexing easily, a good hard spring steel.

----------


## Glen C.

> Should we or not discount the Wyatt silversmith of Philadelphia for mounting swords, this one in particular? Or is this sword British?


Without further data, I can't but look at the English listing for Peter Wyatt.  Was the Philadelphia location a full working shop or simply an outlet for his goods imported to Philly.  We don't know. Someone needs to get a better grasp of that. I hate to say it but that is research I'm not really tackling, as I have a dozen new sword examples  I need to categorize. Not a big deal to shuffle some photos around but they sit on my desktop staring at me.  I did take the time yesterday to do a word document and harvest images for the sword on Ebay right now.  A great story with plausibility but in the end, just a story.

Is the sword known to have stayed in Philly its entire life? Or did it arrive there. What provenance did the seller offer?  I know and have bought swords from PA sellers, am I to assume they spent their entirety there? Did someone before add one and two, then assume the sum is four?

I know there are times we all see what we want to see.

The Bazelon article is a cute teaser and he pulls out Widmann as an example simply because of available information.  More on Widmann some other time  :Wink:   One somewhat disappointing note on Bazelon is his basically reprinting the older 100 years of Horstmann history, renamiing it and adding a couple of notes (there are $$ I will never get back).  So, as with Bezdek and everyone looking at a company and individuals information. we are often repeating what is already there.  I think the truth of this sword lies first in finding another and then another and most of all researching Wyatt in Philly through city directories and almanacs. Someone has obviously found one listing recanted time and again, we need more info. Research Philadelphia to find the story of Wyatt during more than one or two years (but maybe sales only lasted that long) We don't know  :Smilie: 

Cheers

Hotspur; _Reasearch and filing nonwithstanding, my list of things to do goes wanting_

----------


## Will Mathieson

The sword came from a Philadelphia auction and I assume it was not from a collection as there were two swords in 100's of other unrelated items. 
The last half of the blade was rusty and uncleaned and I would believe any collector would have done something  to remedy that. It appeared to me it had been recently released from its leather scabbard. All assumptions.
I have sent a query to the auction house.
I totally agree the Philadelphia Wyatt requires research, all that is written is he mounted swords.
To find another would be great. Can I find city directories and almanacs online? Where would I look? I am admittedly not a great researcher, I've been looking here and there without a good focus. I should slow down and think this through.

----------


## Glen C.

> all that is written is he mounted swords


Nope, Wyatt is listed in that category with no other data aside from a date. As far as I am concerned, it was Bezdek culling lists of Philadelphia silversmiths and assuming Wyatt mounted swords. Pursue Dick Bezdek with the provenance of that information and my hunch is he simply pulled it from that 1948 publication of American silversmiths (with no mention of swords).

Mebbe I am just jaded about so many author's needing to amend publications. Some live long enough to revise their thoughts based on new information.  :Smilie:   I am adding smilies because I don't want to come across as surly  :Smilie:

----------


## Glen C.

I start with simple searches and resources
http://www.phila.gov/historical/Pages/default.aspx
http://libwww.freelibrary.org/explor.../directory.cfm

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Philadelphia+ci...can+revolution

Are we looking for Joeseph or Peter?
  JOSEPH WYATT 1797 Philadelphia, Pa at Callowhill Street and Cable Lane

----------


## Will Mathieson

Thank-you Glen that is helpful. It didn't occur to me Bezdeks book would have mistakes, especially the one bit important to Wyatt, I should have just thinking of Janzens Bayonet bayonet book plus others with all the amendments.

----------


## Will Mathieson

One bit of information I noticed recently is the grip wire is magnetic, so a ferrous metal. It is authentic to the piece, no signs of it not being.
Has anyone seen this on other swords?

----------


## E.B. Erickson

British cav swords of the 1700s use both ferrous and non-ferrous metals for the wire, in my experience. For trooper's swords, iron/steel wire and brass wire was used; probably brass being more common. Copper is scarce on trooper's swords. For officer's, copper and silver wire was common (especially the copper), but you sometimes see brass. Steel/iron wire seems to be pretty rare on the officer's swords.

The cav hilts that are similar to yours are usually mounted with iron/steel wire.

Bear in mind that the comment above is based only on what I've seen: I've got no documentation!

----------


## Will Mathieson

It seems silversmiths in early America did not limit themselves to silver hilted swords but expanded into all metal works.

Paul Revere was a prosperous and prominent Boston silversmith, who helped organize an intelligence and alarm system to keep watch on the British military. Revere later served as a Massachusetts militia officer, though his service culminated after the Penobscot Expedition, one of the most disastrous campaigns of the American Revolutionary War, for which he was absolved of blame. Following the war, Revere returned to his silversmith trade and used the profits from his expanding business to finance his work in iron casting, bronze bell and cannon casting, and the forging of copper bolts and spikes. Finally in 1800 he became the first American to successfully roll copper into sheets for use as sheathing on naval vessels..
This makes it quite plausible that the Philadelphia silversmith Joseph Wyatt made cavalry swords.

I should look at Wyatts in Britain to either gain or exclude possibilities.

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

If I am reading correctly Company letter over Regiment number was a typical Regiment of Foot mark for British units. A over 57 would be 57th Regiment of Foot and these slot hilts with branches were typical of swords used in the Americas. It is possible as in Bazelon article that a foot sword hilt was salvaged and rehilted with calvary blade years later. Wyatt was in the center of sword production for the US and could have commissioned a local bladesmith to build it with his stamp. Very common for the era. While your sword is not of the quality of a British sword of 1798 it is well built and would have required an experienced bladesmith to build it. Most American built swords of this time were not etched but most British swords were. It is the only way I see in my mind for a slot hilt at this time as they were out of vogue for Americans much less British. Eric

----------


## Will Mathieson

The marking A would be the troop and 57 the trooper. Hilt is too large for a foot soldiers. The balance is right for a cavalry sword, too good to be made from just adding a blade to a hilt. 
 Appears British and is of quality, very similar to a couple unnamed and Samuel Harvey sword pommels in Neumanns book. 
Wyatt of Philadelphia could be misleading, not enough info about him to know. As Glen mentioned on Mananskys book the fact that Wyatt mounted swords could have been just assumed without any fact.
The blade is well made, tapers in width and thickness too well for a blacksmiths hammer. 
Maybe I should be looking for a Wyatt in Britain

----------


## Will Mathieson

This sword being in an earlier time period then what I usually collect I find I'm retracting somewhat of what I wrote earlier. 
The fact that myself and others cannot find a Wyatt in Britain that made or sold swords points me back to the Philadelphia silversmith, and why not?
 British did keep good records, if there was a sword maker named Wyatt in Britain he would have been recognized and listed.
Just not enough information to positive, coincidence a Wyatt, a silversmith in Philadelphia that may have mounted swords and the sword found there. Bezdek does not show where this sword mounting info is found. His Wyatt notation does not make reference to his bibliography and there are several more obvious books listed there.
I have emailed the auction house to find out any of its previous history though nothing yet.

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

I also have changed my mind many times on this sword but ohh what fun it is. So the A would be Troop A and the 57, Sword 57 or Trooper 57 speaking in British of course? I would guess I need to learn more on the handling of infantry verses calvary but it is confusing.  The Ames m1833 is a calvary or dragoon sword and handles like a clumsy stick. The m1742 and m1751 British infantry sword is short and has heavy hilt but handles very well. The Early 19th century French light calvary handle like a dream as does the British m1796 and both have light hilts. Unlike the  British lion head calvary swords of Revolution which had big heavy hilts. Is it in the blade or the hilt? Eric

----------


## Will Mathieson

Eric it is stamped in the blade fairly deeply, somewhat filled with old corrosion. Difficult to get a sense of things from just photos.

----------


## Will Mathieson

Just a couple blade photos to show how well the blade is made, smooth with barely a ripple.

----------


## Will Mathieson

I found this PBS video. It shows a revolutionary sword with brass 3 bar hilt but what is interesting is the style of the slotted hilt with the outer bars exiting the hilt at a similar angle. An American trait for cavalry hilts of the period?
http://video.pbs.org/video/1899671051/

----------


## Glen C.

Not to speak too poorly of Rafael but I have purchased four swords from the man and none of them correctly id'd. A recent email discussion with him had me reminding him of those purchases. He generally does ok with most American attributions but I question much of what he describes for this sword. Rather than addressing the sword's provenance specifically, he is painting with a broad brush of generality.  I do not see the hilt as an American trait for cavalry swords of the ARW period.  

The Roadshow presentations and appraisals are notoriously poor.

Cheers

Hotspur; _Rafael has a neat Reddell&Bate sword on sale_

----------


## Will Mathieson

Very true, roadshow and all TV. to be taken with a chunk of rock salt. It is just the first other sword I have seen with the outer bars attached at a similar angle. Without provenance it gets me no closer.
The sword pictured looks like a machete maker casting a brass guard to imitate a British cavalry sword hilt and putting it on one of their blades for export.
One way of cheaply arming people.

----------


## ralph abbruzzese

Hello,
I recently registered with this forum and my account was activated. I want to make a post on a couple swords I own and I want to know more information about them. However, I can't find where to post or the button to push to make posts. I've emailed the person who registered and activated my account but they don't respond back. So I'm using this reply thread that maybe someone who reads this can help make posts. I'm wanting to know about two British swords I own, one marked only with the name "Harvey" and the other only marked "Woolley". Thanks for any help.
Ralph Abbruzzese

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

Here is a wide fullered clip point by Gill with slot hilt and no branches. Not knowing enough on British swords I cannot say it is American. Your sword does have forging anomalies and signs of hand work on blade. Your hilt is beautiful and if you have ever built a guard out of even todays extruded flat stock it is no easy task to do such a nice job. American or British I just can't see them built by same craftsman. Eric

----------


## Will Mathieson

upper left click on "Forum" then under communities you will see "Antique Arms & Armour Community" immediately under  is " Antique & Military Sword Forum" click on it and that should do it

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

Hope this helps

----------


## Will Mathieson

Eric most of what you see is from corrosion. The blade itself is very straight, smooth and tapered evenly, no wobbles, humps or bumps.
 Any marks are pitting or staining. It is difficult to get a good idea without actually having it in hand. There are only two very minor manufacturing lines that can barely be felt with the fingernail, in fact most of what you see is not felt. Unfortunately most of the blade has had some level of past corrosion which removes the original finish.

----------


## Will Mathieson

yes over a distance the fullers appear not perfect but then no sword does even if rolled. Too bad I can't send a 3d copy of it, soon by the looks of technology.

----------


## ralph abbruzzese

Thanks!

----------


## Glen C.

> The sword pictured looks like a machete maker casting a brass guard to imitate a British cavalry sword hilt and putting it on one of their blades for export.
> One way of cheaply arming people


Casting a guard rather than punching cutouts out of sheet would have been anything but cheaply arming people, export or not. When during the ARW would have a machete blade have been considered in a cavalry role? I am sorry if I can't follow such logic.

----------


## Will Mathieson

The blade shown is short and thin unlike British cavalry swords such as the 1788p. Of course the 1750's British infantry hangers have similar blades that are flat.
The term machete blade was not the best for sure. Brass casting is more easily done than iron, I was thinking of the tons of cast brass India churns out from small shops, would be no more difficult back in the 1700's.

----------


## Glen C.

> Brass casting is more easily done than iron, I was thinking of the tons of cast brass India churns out from small shops, would be no more difficult back in the 1700's.


That is why iron/steel hilts were formed/cut/punched from sheet stock or welded up pieces. That India produces lots of cast hilts does not speak to the availability and cost of brass in the 18th century. Sure, there was lots of casting going on on that side of the pond and briquet a good example arms produced to arm troopers quickly.  Regulation hangers in Britain as well...yet...I see little specifically related to the Wyatt sword.  It is a bit like labeling all dove head sabers as derived from the 1796 light cavalry sword, or that all unmarked Solingen "wristbreaker" cavalry sabers must have been used by the South during the American Civil War.

I appreciate the continued research of your baby.

Cheers

Hotspur; _I gave up researching my slotted hilt years ago but I am always hopeful a twin will appear out of the blue_

----------


## Will Mathieson

Glen I took your good advice and emailed Dick Bezdek and I'm looking forward to a reply.

----------


## Eric Fairbanks

Casting iron is by far the easiest over steel and for sure brass but to get set up to cast is a different story. Anyone can make a small brass kiln and start casting. To build a kiln and set up to heat your molds for steel or iron is a way bigger deal. I often hear people say southern hilts are rough because they are sand cast and wonder what they think the yankees were using for molds. Ram sand or lost wax its still basically quartz sand and bentonite. Iron and steel is more forgiving when you pour in your mold but brass is way easier to set up and get done. The reason southern hilts are rough is because they used scraped parts instead of mixing pure billets of metal with exact mixture of copper and zinc. I would imagine sheet steel was hard to come by pre 1812. It would be easier to work and more forgiving than trying to shape brass. But any back yard blacksmith could have cast a brass hilt. Eric

----------


## Will Mathieson

An inquiry to David R. Hillier Antique Associates at West Townsend, Inc. has supplied me important information regarding the Wyatt name.

"Joseph Wyatt 
Son of William Wyatt of Rotherhithe Wall in the County of Surrey miller, apprenticed to William Suddell of Pelican Court Little Britain as silversmith 8 April 1778. Free, 4 May 1785. Mark entered as small worker, 1 October 1789. Address: 12 Angel Street, St. Martin's Le Grand. Heal records him as goldsmith, Angel Street, 1790.

Likely not American although Wyatt was a common surname which showed up in America"

David also states he has not recently had this maker.


Any further thoughts appreciated

----------


## Glen C.

> Joseph Wyatt 
> 
> 
> Son of William Wyatt of Rotherhithe Wall in the County of Surrey miller, apprenticed to William Suddell of Pelican Court Little Britain as silversmith 8 April 1778. Free, 4 May 1785. Mark entered as small worker, 1 October 1789. Address: 12 Angel Street, St. Martin's Le Grand. Heal records him as goldsmith, Angel Street, 1790.
> 
> http://www.koopmanrareart.com/Deskto...artistid=23944
> 
> Philadelphia/ American silversmiths
> https://books.google.com/books?id=70...rsmith&f=false
> ...


That from the first page of the thread  :Wink: 

What was Dick Bezdek's reply?  Curious minds and all that.
Cheers

GC

----------


## Will Mathieson

> That from the first page of the thread 
> 
> What was Dick Bezdek's reply?  Curious minds and all that.
> Cheers
> 
> GC


Thanks Glen for reminding me of that, I had totally forgotten, here it is:  it is a federal period  cavalry officers sword.  joseph wyatt was a philadelphia silversmith in business 1791 to 1798  wyatt like other early silversmiths such as william ball jr. and paul revere mounted swords. they bought blades locally or from solingen, germany and sheaths from local leather fabricators,made the hilts and assembled them. the hilt design and blade length and clipped point indicate your sword is for the cavalry. the fact that your sheath is missing the tip and frog stud(on mouthpeice}

I could not find any more on Wyatt of Philly and with the sword looking quite British thought I'd keep looking to support or otherwise discount this Wyatt.  I believe the sword is earlier than the 1791-98 date. I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time. 

I'll look at those links you posted now.

----------


## Will Mathieson

Possibly I have already had the correct answer from Bezdek and this British Wyatt is not him? I don't usually delve into swords of this earlier time period or connections to the United States.
With the info I do have not yet compiled properly lends to one forgetting a point or two.

----------


## Glen C.

A terrific sword, with any explanation. Well worth another look.

----------

