# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  Royal Engineer Sergeants Sword

## Christopher J G Scott

Hi all,

This sounds like an obvious question, but I can't seem to find confirmation of the answer.

British infantry regiments equiped thier sergeants with plain examples of the pattern carried by thier officers, 1822/45/54/95/97

However, I don't think i've ever encountered a sergeants version of the Royal Engineers Officers sword of 1857.

Has anybody else ever seen this type of sword? Can anybody confirm that this is what was carried?

Regards,

Chris

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## John Hart

> British infantry regiments equiped thier sergeants with plain examples of the pattern carried by thier officers, 1822/45/54/95/97
> 
> However, I don't think i've ever encountered a sergeants version of the Royal Engineers Officers sword of 1857.
> 
> Has anybody else ever seen this type of sword? Can anybody confirm that this is what was carried?


Hi Chris,

From 1822 "ordinary" RE sergeants carried the standard Infantry sergeant's sword, but in 1843 they ceased to carry swords altogether, these being confined to staff-sergeants (and later warrant officers).  A new RE pattern staff-sergeants sword was introduced in 1861, and this was basically the plain infantry sergeant's blade married with the P1857 officers' brass scroll hilt.  The blade of this sword was shortened from 34.5" to 32.5" in 1862.  This design continued with minor changes until 1889 when the new Staff-Sergeant's pattern was introduced for Infantry and other dismounted corps, and the RE adopted the gilt brass "Gothic" hilt version of this sword.

Senior sergeants seem to have carried a version of the officer sword, however, and Alan Beadle has an interesting war-damaged piece for sale at the moment (item Y5533 in his online catalogue), to a Company Sergeant-Major Plumley, killed in the Boer War.  I notice this seems to have an engraved blade.

The brass scroll hilt itself was discontinued for both officers and sergeants some time between 1897 and 1900.

(References; Robson, pp.218-9; p235)

Hope this helps!

John

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## Christopher J G Scott

Hello John,

Many thanks indeed for that. Is that information from the 1996 version of Robson? I checked my original and could swear there was nothing in there (my new copy is currently AWOL!)

I don't think i've ever encountered the NCO's version of the 1857, I presume if they were issued then they would just be reissued until unservicable-thus making them quite hard to find?

Shall keep my eyes peeled for an example-easily the most attractive of the Victorian patterns, IMHO.

Thanks again,

Chris

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## Robert Wilkinson-Latham

> Hi Chris,
> 
> From 1822 "ordinary" RE sergeants carried the standard Infantry sergeant's sword, but in 1843 they ceased to carry swords altogether, these being confined to staff-sergeants (and later warrant officers).  A new RE pattern staff-sergeants sword was introduced in 1861, and this was basically the plain infantry sergeant's blade married with the P1857 officers' brass scroll hilt.  The blade of this sword was shortened from 34.5" to 32.5" in 1862.  This design continued with minor changes until 1889 when the new Staff-Sergeant's pattern was introduced for Infantry and other dismounted corps, and the RE adopted the gilt brass "Gothic" hilt version of this sword.
> 
> Senior sergeants seem to have carried a version of the officer sword, however, and Alan Beadle has an interesting war-damaged piece for sale at the moment (item Y5533 in his online catalogue), to a Company Sergeant-Major Plumley, killed in the Boer War.  I notice this seems to have an engraved blade.
> 
> The brass scroll hilt itself was discontinued for both officers and sergeants some time between 1897 and 1900.
> 
> (References; Robson, pp.218-9; p235)
> ...


Here are some old sepia photograph taken by either Mole of Wilkinson at Enfield when viewing the patterns (from my files).



This is annotated as  Staff Sgt RE 1872 - Gilt Mounts - Steel scabbard
(Hilt same as Sappers and Miners) Pattern Number 585.

This is referred to in List of Changes as:
Sword, Gun Metal Hilt, Staff Serjeants, Royal Engineers (Mark III)

In 1869 a sword for Staff sgts RE was introduced with an improved' shape hilt which was submitted by Mole.

Here is the Sappers and Miners Staff Sergeant sword

and the hilt

Pattern Number 416 dating from 1861.

Hope some of all of this helps.
Robert

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## John Hart

> Many thanks indeed for that. Is that information from the 1996 version of Robson? I checked my original and could swear there was nothing in there


Hi Chris,

Yes, but it's on page 158 of "Robson original" - he treats sergeants' swords differently in the first version (the chapter on sergeants' swords just covers the Infantry).

John

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## Christopher J G Scott

Thanks for the clarification John-still feel like a bit of a berk for not seeing it! Am quite concerend I can't find my new edition, it must still be packed up-I hate moving!!

Robert,

Many thanks indeed for the images. It seems very similar to the officers version. Do you know if they ever used brass mounted leather scabbards, or was the pattern always steel?

You mention a gun metal hilt-would it not have been brass like the officers version, and the example on Beadles site? Or would this have been gilt?

Fascinating swords, one could make a diverse collection of the various RE patterns of swords and sidearms alone...

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## Robert Wilkinson-Latham

> Thanks for the clarification John-still feel like a bit of a berk for not seeing it! Am quite concerend I can't find my new edition, it must still be packed up-I hate moving!!
> 
> Robert,
> 
> Many thanks indeed for the images. It seems very similar to the officers version. Do you know if they ever used brass mounted leather scabbards, or was the pattern always steel?
> 
> You mention a gun metal hilt-would it not have been brass like the officers version, and the example on Beadles site? Or would this have been gilt?
> 
> Fascinating swords, one could make a diverse collection of the various RE patterns of swords and sidearms alone...


The specification are quite clear is having the hilt of 'Gun metal' which in those days was a bronze (The same as used on some cast Muzzle loading artillery pieces.)= 

_"Gun metal" today, as a term, reflects the more modern barrels of artillery pieces_

All this type of Staff sergeants swords seem to have been specified with steel scabbards.
If after use with the Regular Army or when new patterns were introduced, then those older patterns which were serviceable and in Store may well have been handed out to Volunteer Engineer units.

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## Robert Wilkinson-Latham

Moles's record of sword production as detailed in my book 

_The swords and records of Robert Mole and Sons 1835-1920_

show the contract production of RE Staff Sergeant swords from 1854 of swords of this style.  the cost was 19/6 and 6/6 for the scabbard. There is a note on the records in 1872 saying _New Pattern Mk III_   but the price remained the same.  The last of this pattern appear to have been made in 1880.

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## Christopher J G Scott

> The specification are quite clear is having the hilt of 'Gun metal' which in those days was a bronze (The same as used on some cast Muzzle loading artillery pieces.)= 
> 
> _"Gun metal" today, as a term, reflects the more modern barrels of artillery pieces_


Thanks for this Robert.

Its is easy to forget that Victorian terms may not always be interpreted in the same way as we do now.

Very useful information altogether-perhaps there is a huge stockpile of these swords in a storehouse somewhere, as I can't seem to find many examples on the market! I do like a challenge!

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## Robert Wilkinson-Latham

> Thanks for this Robert.
> 
> Its is easy to forget that Victorian terms may not always be interpreted in the same way as we do now.
> 
> Very useful information altogether-perhaps there is a huge stockpile of these swords in a storehouse somewhere, as I can't seem to find many examples on the market! I do like a challenge!


They may well be stored somewhere!!!
 The only problem with Mole's records are that very few of the Contract details (Years and price) have quantities entered. It could well be that despite being made in:
1854, 1866, 1868, 1869, 1870. 1871,1873, 1874, 1876-8, the swords were only ordered in small quantities such as 5, 3, and so on. This was perfectly normal for the specialised swords where the demand was not high.
It is interesting to note that the Sword, Staff Sergeant Engineers (Moles's improved pattern mentioned above) was still listed in_Table of Small Arms, Swords, Lances ....._in September 1891.

Here is the Specification for the sword. According to Mole's Notes:
Blade weighed 1lb 2 oz to 1 lb 3oz
Scabbard 1lb 2oz with 1 1/2 oz tolerance each way
Sword weighed 1lb 15oz 1 oz tolerance each way.



Note: the specification for the hilt says the grip is covered in "Seal' skin. (Maybe this is correct or perhaps the copy clerk misread Shark)

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## Christopher J G Scott

Many thanks for the specification Robert,

If the grip covering really did call for seal skin thaen that would seem most unusual, I don't believe i've encountered that before.


Interesting notes regarding the production numbers, I presume there were other examples supplied by different retailers?

Now all we have to do is find one for comparison!

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## Robert Wilkinson-Latham

> Many thanks for the specification Robert,
> 
> If the grip covering really did call for seal skin thaen that would seem most unusual, I don't believe i've encountered that before.
> 
> 
> Interesting notes regarding the production numbers, I presume there were other examples supplied by different retailers?
> 
> Now all we have to do is find one for comparison!


Found this description of Gun metal in an additional Military sword  spec: (For India Store Department)

Gun-metal
An alloy made up of 80% copper, 9% yellow brass, 10% tin and 
1% lead, although the mixture may vary.

Robert

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## Christopher J G Scott

Thanks for that Robert!

I do love reading these "recipies" the one for Wilkinson's Steel in the concurrent thread is most interesting!

As an aside, I am on the trail of a Engineer Sergeant's sword, i'm supposed to be handling it later this week!

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## Christopher J G Scott

Got one!!!!

A Royal Engineer's Seargeant's sword, by Mole. 32.5 inch blade.


Here are some quick shots to share with you all.

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## Will Mathieson

Thought I would add this Mole engineers sergeants sword dated 1872. Later dated scabbard of 1903. Blade has etching but no proved disc and has inspection stamp.

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## Robert Wilkinson-Latham

The etch you describe  was used by Mole and Mole only put a brass Proof slug in some of his better and Best swords.

contract swords like this one just have the etching as your blade shows.

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## Will Mathieson

Hello Robert does any paperwork still exist telling us the quantity of engineers sergeants swords made? 
Could this be in your book on Robert Mole? I haven't read your books in some time, and there is too much information in them to remember it all.
Very few seem to surface so I assume not many were produced.

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## Steve Langham

Adding to an old thread, with perhaps some interesting developments. I've managed to obtain a late RE sergeant's sword, dated 1893. It's fully etched, but doesn't appear to be made by Mole (perhaps Robinson?). Interesting that the issue date is well after the 1889P SSgt sword, so perhaps RE sergeants kept their distinctive swords until 1897?

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## james.elstob

Just a thought, no access to reference books at the minute but if the 'V' is for volunteer it may be that a volunteer unit has taken an old pattern into service in 1893 at which time it's been retested and stamped.

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## Will Mathieson

Sometimes officers swords were used. Not many sword makers by 1893, could be retailed by "Robinson?" but made by Mole or Wilkinson. Not sure what DS represents, a guess being Devonshire.

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## Steve Langham

> Just a thought, no access to reference books at the minute but if the 'V' is for volunteer it may be that a volunteer unit has taken an old pattern into service in 1893 at which time it's been retested and stamped.


A fair point! - Unlikely to be a private purchase offcier's sword (? - no slug), yet no trace of other stamps. I'm wondering whether DS.RE might be Divisional Signals Royal Engineers? - I believe the signalers were part of RE, and there was probably a signals coy supporting divisional HQ ? Only Staff Sergeant's would have swords at this time I believe (apart from officers of course).

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