# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  1800 Pattern Naval sword by Richard Teed, Strand

## Jon B Harrison

Having busy with other projects and getting married over the summer months, I've had little time or resources available for collecting. 

Yesterday I however I ventured out to a local arms fair. Generally the highlight of such fairs is to see and examine early swords, examples of which I would one day hope to own, but for the moment I'm firmly financially stuck in the 18thC.

Happening upon one dealer's stand I was presented with a miscellany of which the vast majority if not broken, rusty or repro was tat. At the end of the stand were 2 barrels literally stuffed with the afore mentioned categories of swords. I noted a bone / ivory hilt and pulled it out to examine the piece a little closer. I was presented with a circa 1800 pattern Naval sword, 5 ball, cigar band, fouled anchor etc. Looking at the general display, the dealer and the sword I wasn't sure if this was genuine or a good repro. After hanging on to it for about 10 minutes I decided that for £160 I would risk it. Having got it home and checked it with Withers and a glass, I'm rather glad I did. 

Questions:

Date; Described by one dealer as pre-regulation. The back strap is less inclined than examples I've seen in Withers, would this be indicative of a slightly earlier date? Teed appears to have been in Strand from 1785 - 1816.

Teed; drawing a parallel with a Lee Metford bayonet by Mole I realise that a name can make quite a difference as regards price. In this case does Teed have sufficient stature to alter the sword's value to a modest degree?

I have an eagle head sword (minus back strap and side ring(?) of a similar date, would I be correct in thinking that it should also have a 5 ball back strap and ring?

Sadly the fouled anchor between the side ring and hilt is missing. I believe Withers notes that these can "drop out" over time. Were they not permanently fixed? If potentially loose, does anyone have one available for loan as a pattern so I can cast one.

Thanking you all in anticipation of enlightenment.

Photographs to be posted asap.

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## David Critchley

Hi Jon, 

Date; Described by one dealer as pre-regulation. The back strap is less inclined than examples I've seen in Withers, would this be indicative of a slightly earlier date? Teed appears to have been in Strand from 1785 - 1816.

I don't think it's any particular indication Jon, just a variation on a theme.

Teed; drawing a parallel with a Lee Metford bayonet by Mole I realise that a name can make quite a difference as regards price. In this case does Teed have sufficient stature to alter the sword's value to a modest degree?

Well, as the cutler who made the Lloyds Patriotic Fund swords, he's certainly a desirable cutler, and one of quality

Sadly the fouled anchor between the side ring and hilt is missing. I believe Withers notes that these can "drop out" over time. Were they not permanently fixed? 

They tended to be brazed into position with copper, there's often a little hole one side of the side loop and a slot the other into which the anchor was fixed

David

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## Jon B Harrison

Thank you for the information David. I'm uploading images so as to clarify a couple of points I raised. 

I realise I forgot to mention that the blade appears to be plain or perhaps just too lovingly polished over the years. Also while the scabbard fittings are original, the leather has been renewed which I consider to be a quite legitimate piece of restoration.
The blade is unmarked with the exception of being signed R Teed on top of the blade in the same script (broadly similar to Times Roman) as on the Locket. The frog button if of a floral style.
Re the loose ring adjacent to the pommel: Would this serve a practical or decorative purpose?

Given the name but considering the faults would you consider that for insurance purposes, Withers's guide in World Swords would be about right? Or am I being over optimistic?

Incidentally I'll post my queries re the Eagle head sword as a seperate thread.

Jon

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## David Critchley

I think the inscription and anchor on the scabbard look a bit suspicious Jon. Do you have a picture of the blade ?

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## J.G. Hopkins

> I think the inscription and anchor on the scabbard look a bit suspicious Jon. Do you have a picture of the blade ?


I agree, David.

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## Jon B Harrison

Hi David
I did try and get a photograph of the inscription on the blade but the camera just wouldn't focus on it on edge. I'll use the Canon tomorrow which should make it a lot easier. 
At this stage I can say that the blade measures 32.5", with the fullers terminating 10" from the tip. The first 10" of the blade is double edged.
Looking at the anchor I see it appears imbalanced, I would have anticipated better but I think I need to see comparable pieces before writing this one off.

Despite my initial caution this piece *does* feel right. I've probably had 100 swords plus through my hands over the last 2 years so I'm reasonably happy about this one. It still has traces of fire gilt in all the right places and some honest minor abrasion which one would expect. Certainly not artificially distressed. 

However I am open to being corrected.

Does anyone out there have a similar piece or even a sword by Teed so we can compare inscriptions?

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## J.G. Hopkins

I think the sword itself could be fine, it is the inscription that looks wrong to me.  Unfortunately some people are not above altering original pieces in order to achieve higher sales prices.

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## Dmitry Z~G

Scabbard was rightly pinpointed by the guys. I don't like the scabbard at all. 
I would be concerned with the rest of this sword. May we see some photos of the blade?

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## Jon B Harrison

I must admit I'd not considered that, but take it on board. 
In my opinion there's too much good work present to dismiss it as a reproduction or outright fake. 
Patination and aged ware appear correct, proportion and balance are good, all points that copies and outright fakes generally fail on. 
It would still be very usefull to compare engraved detail if at all possible. I'm wondering if the Royal Armouries, Leeds, have any Teed pieces.

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## Jon B Harrison

I'll post pics of the blade tomorow when the light's good.
Many thanks for the input.

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## hjswithers

John.

If it came from the dealer and barrel that I am thinking of, it is likely to be a wrong 'un, I'm afraid - have seen this sword at other fairs being sold by the same dealer - my opinion is that the whole sword is fake.  The scabbard and locket is most definitely wrong - lettering not period and poorly executed.  I believe that this style of sword is currently being reproduced and aged appropriately.  I do hope that I am wrong, though and am happy to eat my words!

Regards,

Harvey Withers

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## J.G. Hopkins

The five-ball hilt spadroon is being reproduced and I have seen a number of them on ebay that have been aged and purchased at relatively high prices. I think that the blade photos will be a tremendous help and look forward to seeing them.

Jonathan

ADDED:

Here is a nice montage Glen C. put together, which features an aged repro that was sold on ebay a while ago.

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## Glen C.

Hmmm, yes. The beaded five-ball in my montage is spuriously aged but I do not know that any cigar band spadroons have hit the scene yet, as manufactured in India. It is possible that there were swords sold some time ago that are false but not from sources I'm familiar with over the past decade. Jonathan had mentioned an early one but I can't remember if it was banded (the Reinhardt example; nope not that one).

Blade pictures of the one being discussed will certainly be telling. The cut of the hilt in question doesn't look as obviously wrong as the one in my picture but the blade should bring out some truths.

Cheers

Hotspur; _The eagle looks fine (a sad state of grace but fine)_

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## David Critchley

> Scabbard was rightly pinpointed by the guys. I don't like the scabbard at all. 
> I would be concerned with the rest of this sword. May we see some photos of the blade?


Teed was a presentation sword cutler. Looking at the circle stamped decoration around the pommel and lower ferule I think it looks too rough and ready. Teed would have engraved the decoration not stamped it.

Sorry Jon, but I think you have a wrong'un there

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## Jon B Harrison

Harvey
Would you perchance be referring to a rather rotund gentleman of scruffy disposition whose communication lacks a certain finesse, exhibiting a rather loud and depressing midlands accent.

If I am correct, then _Caveat emptor_ all who visit certain fairs in the UK.

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## Ivan B.

Definitely fake, aged by well-known UK "dealer".
This is commercial reproduction:
"Straight single edged blade in brass mounted leather scabbard engraved Richard Tees Strand. "

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## hjswithers

Jon.

Afraid that you've got it in one - this gentleman was the first dealer I purchased from many years ago when I started out and he sold me a couple of swords that he "guaranteed" were genuine - every one was fake - suffice to say, I never bought from him again - I did get my money back, though, by asking for it in a very loud voice at a fair!  His stand gives the appearance of being the kind of place where you can pick up a gem, but the disorganization is contrived - pretty much all the swords are aged fakes from India.

Regards,

Harvey

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## Jon B Harrison

Gentlemen
I have uploaded more photographs which I think better prove you valid points than support my optimistic argument.

Examine the irregularity of the anchor on the cigar band.
The grooves on the bone do not run true and curve slightly left towards the lower part.
As for lettering, I don't know but it appear to be of a similar die as used on the example submitted by Jonathan Hopkins as does the blade.

I hope publication of these communications will serve as a warning to others.

In mitigation or ignorance I wasn't actually aware of Teed's provenance till after I'd bought the piece. It was the 5 ball hilt that attracted me in so much as I believed it to be of a similar style employed on the damaged Eagle pommel sword (though I can't recall my reference point for that unless it was the Royal Armouries, Leeds) which will be the subject of my next posting. 

My grateful thanks to everyone, I'm sure we are all a lot wiser.

_[B]Caveat emptor[/B]_

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## David Critchley

The blade looks like the type used by Military Heritage for their 1796 Infs and 1805 replicas.

More like a straightened 1845 wilkinson blade type than a typical 1790s spadroon where the fuller would extend to the point.

Someone has taken a lot of trouble to age it appropriately and then half clean it.

David

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## Glen C.

Aside from the blade aspects and what others have mentioned is the very machined pommel capstan which should show a tang peen. On the scabbard (and probably the sword as well) one trait of the antiquing effort is often the harsh scuffing which we see on the scabbard fittings. On the Ebay pictures, there is often the ad copy to let someone fall into seeing what they think they want to see. Something else that is often apparent with these bone grips, especially with the bands is chipping and splits.

There are some period spadroons that have blade forms somewhat like these, which can make it even tougher.

Cheers

Hotspur; _the eagles with beaded hilts often do suffer damage quite easily. Do post up a thread on your's if you want to. These are regarded as associated with Osborn_

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## Dmitry Z~G

You got it bad. And that ain't good.

Sorry, but we've all been there, if that makes you feel any better.

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## A.Ducote

Hi Jon.   We have all been there.   At least you didn't invest a bundle in it.

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## Jon B Harrison

Thank you all

I may be a little poorer financially but considerably richer for the experience gained, the lesson learnt and the knowledge imparted. 

Jon

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## Brian Rollason

Your NOT out any money track him down and get the money back....guys like this need to be exposed...if he didn't give you your money back I would take something off his table  and leave the sword first making sure he knew about it and give him a choice if he refused to play ball then I would walk away...as far as I'm concerned he stole from you and needs to correct the problem...would you let a criminal steal your money and walk away infront of you?  If he didn't know he needs to give you your money back if he did know he still needs too...No matter what your getting your money back one way or another. If I had to call the Police at a show..just to embarrass him I would!!! I don't tollerate con artists.

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## Cathey Brimage

Hi guys

I have just come back from an Arms and Militaria fair in Adelaide Australia and there were 17 8 foot trestles of reproduction swords, helmets etc.  Nothing marked reproduction of course, of these swords where running out the door.  This dealer turned over 32000 dollars in one day.  The other stall owners who had original items were incensed and facing a losing battle.  The problem is the fakes are getting better at every show and it is so hard for the new collector.  Once they have been burned there is every chance we have lost them to collecting forever.  A friend of ours who sells nothing but original badges has stopped selling to the dealer with 17 tables as he is now openly boasting of buying originals to send to India to be copied.  What hope is there?

The indo-Persian copies are particularly frightening as the quality is extremely good.  In my early days I was very partial to collecting Indo-Persian; however I am very wary now.

Cheers Cathey

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## Jon B Harrison

Just a thought here, but could we not start a Rogues Gallery to highlight such pieces as mine - non of us like to see anyone buying a dud.

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## Guy C

Jon
Yes this Knubley sword shows up quite a lot, often for silly inflated prices. ARMAE the French Deepeeka distributor sell it quite honestly as a reproduction. I like your idea of a rogues gallery. OldSwords.com do have a section for known fakes and I think we would all like to see these things exposed. For those people selling them honestly as reproductions it would also be good, as people could see what good repros there are out there and what sort of prices thay can be bought for.

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## morgan butler

I almost bought one of those spadroons once myself and only narrowly escaped. Still, since its not to much perhaps you can enjoy a decently made re-pro. Something to take to demos and not worry about to much.

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## Gilles Alligard

Some firms in europe  make high quality repros bearing even the stamps and proofs marks of the real vintage swords and sabers. I was quite shocked to see that there are no way to be sure they are just copies. Anyone could buy a modern copy for the price of a genuine historical piece after a little ageing work by an unscrupulous dealer....

When does a repro cease to be a repro to become a fake?

G.A

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## A.Ducote

> Hi guys
> 
> I have just come back from an Arms and Militaria fair in Adelaide Australia and there were 17 8 foot trestles of reproduction swords, helmets etc.  Nothing marked reproduction of course, of these swords where running out the door.  This dealer turned over 32000 dollars in one day.  The other stall owners who had original items were incensed and facing a losing battle.  The problem is the fakes are getting better at every show and it is so hard for the new collector.  Once they have been burned there is every chance we have lost them to collecting forever.  A friend of ours who sells nothing but original badges has stopped selling to the dealer with 17 tables as he is now openly boasting of buying originals to send to India to be copied.  What hope is there?
> 
> The indo-Persian copies are particularly frightening as the quality is extremely good.  In my early days I was very partial to collecting Indo-Persian; however I am very wary now.
> 
> Cheers Cathey


Cathey,

did you handle any of the fakes?  What is the feel of the blade.  In my experience, all of the reproductions have an inflexible and overly heavy blade.   How do these match up?

Andre

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## Lisette molenaar

I think i bought a similar naval sword. Same discription and state from a dealer in plymouth. After reading this i have had a closer look to the aging. I'll come back on it later. With some pics. It to late for me to go back to the shop becouse i'm heading home al ready (netherlands)

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## Dmitry Z~G

There's exactly the same Teed-marked artificially aged  RN spadroon on eBay right now, being sold out of the UK. Seller is pleading ignorance, of course.
Watch out!

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## Dmitry Z~G

http://www.ebay.com/itm/110731757729...84.m1438.l2648

'Only' $750!

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## Glen C.

I suppose I should be adding more to my fake file, as this is another example of the suppliers changing up traits some more to not put them all in one basket. Weapon Edge and Windlass are primarily export agents, although they will maintain everything is from their own shops. When we see secondary sellers such as Discriminating General and Cold Steel selling the same items but claiming different makers, that there are more than just a couple of exporters selling identical wares.

One has improved the look of the spadroons in the blade end of them in doing fullers to the points. I hate to think is was partially my own mentioning it to reproduction enthusiasts. There are some earlier India made spadroons that look a good bit better as well. Still, some traits are always apparent.

Jonathan had pointed out yet another that I don't see circulating and had a hard time retracing those leads but were they to pick up the momentum of correcting some of the visuals, even more might fall for "such the deal" or even start passing them off as originals.

Cheers

Hotspur; _then there are some real originals with the shorter fullers and cleaner lines._

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## Ivan B.

That's a cheap one. Faked Danish pallasch, recently sold on ebay (item number 270801684806) for $1580, was much more impressive.

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## Michael Callaghan

hi, even christies had a repro in their last action, it went unsold, so one must be very aware of whats out there. I got done with a spontoon early this year, will never buy unseen again, michael

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## John Hart

> hi, even christies had a repro in their last action, it went unsold, so one must be very aware of whats out there. I got done with a spontoon early this year, will never buy unseen again, michael


The only way is to ask for plenty of photos up-front, especially of those parts of the sword that usually show the tell-tale signs distinguishing fakes from real.  Having said that, there will always be an element of _caveat emptor_ when buying remotely and nothing beats having the sword in your hands.  For example, there's a large militaria auction featuring several swords coming up in London on 20 September, and I would advise prospective buyers to assure themselves _very_ carefully of the genuineness or otherwise of the etching on some of the swords!

John

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## Will Mathieson

Auctioneers tend to plead ignorance when it comes to authenticity of swords not to mention condition of cars etc. On average they receive 25% of the sale price, with buyers premium up to 10% more, so higher the hammer price the better! If you get to an auction and are unable to handle a sword, don't purchase it, surprises await! Made the mistake myself and have not done so since.

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## David M. W.

Del

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## David M. W.

Very similiar sword has recently surfaced on Polish auction site (photos attached). Would that be a copy as well?

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## J.G. Hopkins

Yes, that is a copy.

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## David M. W.

That's what I thought. I contacted seller and informed him about that but he told me very rudely to mind my own business unfortunately. It also turned out that seller lives in UK so the source of both copies is probably the same.

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## SergeyB

Looks like I am the next one who owns the copy of Teeds sword. I am a very fresh man in this forum and a fresh collector of swords. Let's say that this was a payment for studies :-(. May be somebody have a pictures of original one? Very interesting in details. 
Thank you
Sergey

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## David Critchley

Teed was an assembler of swords rather than a blade maker. The scabbard was sometimes marked Teed but not stamped on the blade.
I assume they used Teed's name as he was awarded the contract by Lloyds for their presentation swords, but aside from those he isn't really known as a naval outfitter.

Here's an original one from the National Maritime Museum

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collect...ts/534849.html

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## SergeyB

> Teed was an assembler of swords rather than a blade maker. The scabbard was sometimes marked Teed but not stamped on the blade.
> I assume they used Teed's name as he was awarded the contract by Lloyds for their presentation swords, but aside from those he isn't really known as a naval outfitter.
> 
> Here's an original one from the National Maritime Museum
> 
> http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collect...ts/534849.html


Hi, this morning i was in Moscow museum. Visited it the second time specialy for R.Teeds sword. Wanted to talk to specialist as it was agreed few mounths ago. Not result. She was wery "busy" :-(. Will post pictures of my "Teeds" and russian one later on. When will be at home. My i have a link to literature or albums about this sword please. Have a nice day Sergey

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## E.B. Erickson

Another one of these just showed up today on the Bay.

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## morgan butler

Yep. The seller often has a mixed bag. A lot of interesting composites and one or two genuine articles.

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## Glen C.

Scary stuff. I bought a Widmann sword from them that was mis-listed.  I think they are just selling what the owners list them as.

Anyway, splash some black on them things and they may fetch more  :Wink: 

Cheers

Hotspur; _otherwise, there are some interestings things out there_

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## Glen C.

It was only a matter of time before this Universal Swords (India) eagle pommel would surface as old.

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## Javier Ramos

By the way, what I call the "sisters", XVI-XVIIth century stye repros of outstanding quality, only detectable because they sport clear signals of being made by the same workshop, are again out in ebay. Beware specially of a seller from a very small EU country.

I would say that fakers are often lurkers of these pages.

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## morgan butler

Looks like another "Teed Sword" auctioning  on E-Bay for $700ish. I sent the dealer the link to this thread....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-5-BA...3D231675785273

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## Glen C.

A seller I had come across searching is selling similar swords but is clearly marking them to hopefully avoid his wares labeled as period swords.  I must say his Bolton eagle head pommel is prettier than the Universal Swords Osborn I recently posted.
http://www.uptonenterprises.ca/

Cheers

Hotspur; _there was a very questionable Ames marked sword recently on the bay_

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## morgan butler

I'm not sure this dealer knows, he often offers interesting and rare swords. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt....so far.

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## Richard Schenk

Another of the fake "Richard Teed" Navy five-ball, pillow pommel swords just sold for over $1000.  (See http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-ENGL...vip=true&rt=nc)  They had 11 bidders hotly competing for this lot.

The same seller had a number of other highly dubious swords listed, including the below eagle head five-ball saber.  Does anyone think there is any chance it is authentic?  Apparently at least 18 bidders did who ran the price up to $861.



It is too bad our favorite site seems to have no interest in preventing sale of such fraudulent items - it would be great if there was some way to post warning to alert less informed buyers on the nature of such dubious items.

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## Will Mathieson

Avoid responsibility and claim ignorance by claiming to be a consignor and mix authentic with repros. Years ago you could warn bidders on eBay of  misrepresented items but sellers complained and it is no longer possible. Describing an item as "likely" 1700's to 1800's in age is misleading. Does this dissolve responsibility when one realizes the item is more than "likely made in the 1980's??? Caveat Emptor.

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## Richard Schenk

> I'm not sure this dealer knows, he often offers interesting and rare swords. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt....so far.


This same dealer just sold another Identical fake for over a thousand - see my note above.  Since you already sent him a link to this chain last year, I don't think he can credibly claim ignorance.  He is a crook plain and simple.  Would it be possible to establish a registry of such thieves?  I suppose the lawyers would never allow it.  I wonder what it would take to successfully prosecute these crooks for mail fraud.

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## Glen C.

The eagle is as sold through GGGodwin, sutler to the re-enactor crowd.  Also available in white brass.  While the seller does occasionally have genuinely old items, many are not authentic antiques.

If nothing else, there are always lots of pictures along with the disclaimer letting bidders make up their own minds.

Cheers

Hotspur; _one of the better sideshow acts on Ebay_

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## Richard Schenk

Well here it is again.  Our friend on eBay just sold another Teed, this time for $1235!  There was a lot of competition for this one, 32 bids from 21 different bidders.  To me this one just screams "FAKE".  He seems to sell one of these every few months - must have a store room full of them.



The same seller also got 36 bids on this French 1st Empire artillery sword "likely early 1800s" with a final sale price of $1135.  Anyone think it's original?

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## Will Mathieson

When they say "likely 1800's" is when they have  committed fraud. It shows they are trying to use the description to get out of trouble however this does not hold water in court.

I find these actions very disturbing with intent to deceive. Definitely should lose their eBay privileges.  The ebay use of non disclosure of who bought the item is also very wrong. It did not used to be this way but now it's all about $$ and who cares who gets ripped off.

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## Javier Ramos

Reposting.
I suggested that with a little effort and money, something than can be done is to post a very similar auction at ebay with the reproduction sword in it, with a similar title and text to the original and without making any mention of the fake auction on it. With the intention that both swords, fake and reproduction, would appear at the same time in searches. That will not go against ebay rules, and it will be educative for the 32 bidders.

Cheers.

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## John Hart

> I suggested that with a little effort and money, something than can be done is to post a very similar auction at ebay with the reproduction sword in it, with a similar title and text to the original and without making any mention of the fake auction on it. With the intention that both swords, fake and reproduction, would appear at the same time in searches. That will not go against ebay rules, and it will be educative for the 32 bidders.


I think this is a great idea - when spending that kind of money people like to think they're getting something special, so to see that there are many of these items out there, most of which are correctly described as reproductions, would surely make them think twice.

John

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## Will Mathieson

I can just imagine these copies will languish in a collection for many years before being found out. Possibly posting the identical description used in the eBay listing would bring up this post with a google search? That just may be enough to warn the buyer of the deception.

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## Richard Schenk

> Reposting.
> I suggested that with a little effort and money, something than can be done is to post a very similar auction at ebay with the reproduction sword in it, with a similar title and text to the original and without making any mention of the fake auction on it. With the intention that both swords, fake and reproduction, would appear at the same time in searches. That will not go against ebay rules, and it will be educative for the 32 bidders.
> 
> Cheers.


I like the idea, but see a couple potential problems.  Unless you happen to own an example of the repro, the difficulty is your listing might actually sell, and then you would have the problem of not being able to deliver.  I suppose you could minimize the chances of this by setting a ridiculously high reserve.  Also, could you use file photos of the repro harvested from previous eBay listings without falling afoul of the lawyers?  If these issues could be resolved, I can see using the listing as a primer spelling out in detail exactly why the pictured sword is a repro.  The listing could be re-run every time this turkey runs another add for his fakes.

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## Will Mathieson

I think the only problem one would have is having these unscrupulous sellers complain to eBay. Hiring a lawyer is far too expensive and leaves them open to fraud charges.
Poetic justice to use their own photos to prove the sword is a copy and being sold as a fake.
Some time ago an ":Edward Barnes" sword was sold by an advertiser/dealer on this forum, just google it and it comes up as Chinese newly made sword.
Here it is being marketed as it should be: https://www.aliexpress.com/store/pro...243313388.html

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## Javier Ramos

Setting a high price for a repro is not a good idea because of the fees ebay will charge even if the item is not sold. There are other ways, like saying that what you sell is a picture of the sword, or you just rent it, or it will be shipped from a country abroad and it will have to pay custom duties. Original repro makers could allow to use their pictures or they could not, maybe it is only needed to recon their origin. You are actually making propaganda for them!

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