# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Middle-East, India & Africa (MEIA) >  Sword engraving on a sword of Suleiman I

## Jerry H.

Gentlemen,

this is an urgent case. We do need a translation, so hard to do. Most likely we are looking at verses from the Qur'an.

Maybe one of the fellow members here can provide us with some help.

Thank you very much in advance !

Best regards;

Hermann

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## A. Alnakas

Hey Jerry,

I would do my best to translate it if you post a full picture of the sword!

The pictures you have posted are Upside down, so I will have to copy it in-order to translate  :Smilie: 

(Not to sound like a grumpy person, but it would be nice-r if you put pictures of the full sword, makes us more enthusiastic about translating!)

Regards,

Abdullatif

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## Jerry H.

Hello Abdullatif,

please forgive, but I can't post the entire sword. :-( The sword photos are belonging to a book project, and I'm bound by several legal contracts. I do perfectly understand what you mean and I would be happy to follow your recommendation, but I can't. I am very sorry to say that.

But what I can say is that, strangely enough, the sword is Poulouar-hilted, which looks really different than what we find usually.

Of course I would be more than happy to receive a translation and, also important, a hint how to place the photos properly.

On the right photo the blade edge is on the lower side, so we thought it would be correct.

Thank you in advance for any help.

Best regards;
Hermann aka Jerry

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## Gene Wilkinson

Hi Jerry,
Some Persian hilts have quillions like a Pulowar, but the 'pommel' end is more like a Shamshir, is that what you mean?

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## Sancar Ozer

May I ask about the historical background of this  sword? When you said "Sulieman I", do you mean Ottoman emperor Kanuni (Lawmaker) Sultan Suleiman Khan I?

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## A. Alnakas

No worries Jerry, Its just more fun to see the full sword  :Smilie:  When will the book be released?

I managed to translate the right picture, the squares are the same word repeated, its Rooh in arabic which means spirit (can also symbolise the angel gabriel. Atleast to an arab, not sure about persians) the verse is a Quranic verse; Here it is:

http://www.islamawareness.net/Dua/kursi.html


As for the other picture, well its a tough one, but can you take shots of the cartouches? also would appreciate clearer pictures of all inscriptions!

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## Jerry H.

Hi Gene,
yes, exactly thats what it is.
Rgds;
Hermann

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## Jerry H.

Hello Sancar,
yes, Suleiman the Lawgiver, the Magnificient.
Rgds;
H.

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## Jerry H.

Gentlemen,
thank you very much for your kind help. It is always a pleasure to correspond with people having knowledge about our beloved edged weapons. Thank you for that.

We have another juvenile delinquent we can't answer to. It's a German crusader sword from the 13th Century, captured probably by Mameluck warriors. They continued to use it as a weapon and stored it in Alexandria. We are not able to read this inscription. So maybe one of the fellow members here can provide us with an answer.

Because of the book we will be happy to post and advertise it on this forum, the release of the book will be in Winter 2011.

Thank you so much for your kind help !

Rgds;
Hermann

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## Sancar Ozer

> Hello Sancar,
> yes, Suleiman the Lawgiver, the Magnificient.
> Rgds;
> H.


  Jerry, is it this sword?

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## Vic Diehl

Nice sword

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## Jerry H.

Dear Sancar.
as said, unfortunately I am not able to answer that question. If it would be the one, I could come probably in legal trouble, if not, my answer wouldn't be of any help regarding to the translation I have asked for. So this is a cul-de-sac for me. What I can say is, that even from that pic the hilt looks close to the one I have in mind.

Sancer, you have allready helped me with swords, so forgive If I appear ungrateful, it is definitely not my intention.

Teschekür ederim for your understanding.

Kindest regards;
Hermann aka Jerry

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## Sancar Ozer

Don't worry about it Jerry. I understand completely :Wink:  

The reason I asked is because some of the blades from that era were rehilted later. And that type of "C" guards are popular in the 18th century. Another detail is, some swords were presented to sultan as heirloom or gifts from other countries. New inscriptions are written to these swords also.  That can be misleading when you try to identify sword's origin and age. A sword that was identified as beloning to Suleiman I might actually be a much older sword from Iran, India or Mamluk. Think of a hypothetical 15th century tulwar, sent to Ottoman sultan as a gift in 17th century and rehilted in late 18th century. What a confusion!

This kilij in picture I sent earlier is one of two famous swords that belongs to Kanuni Suleiman Khan. It is presented in the lobby of Chief of General Staff of Turkish army's office. It is a Turkish kilij but I suspect it to be rehilted at a later date. There are two verses of a poem inscribed to the blade, which very roughly translated as: "When you swing it your enemies fall to the ground, this sword is quenched in wine(meaning blood)"  The poet is Kanuni himself.

Kanuni's second famous kilij is this one:  This one has a hilt and a cross-guard contemporary to Kanuni's era.

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## Jerry H.

Dear Sancar,
thanks again for your understanding.

That makes a valuable and important point. Re-hilting swords. Yes, we have thought about this. When I had this one in my hand it seemed to me that the quillon to tang fit is nearly perfect and seamless, but you're right, adding a new hilt happened very often. 

We are in the process of finalizing the entire book. It would be a pleasure for me to introduce the book here on the forum asap in a different post. Though til that moment we are still in need for a few translations. So maybe one of the fellow members here can help us with the sword in #9.

Thanks again for any thoughts.

Regards;
Hermann aka Jerry

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## Vic Diehl

Sancar:
I am also pleased to see your detailed post. Thank you.  Hermann and I fully understand re-hilted edged weapons, we are students of Japanese swords as well,  and they cross many generations. 
Vic

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## Vic Diehl

Can anyone help us with this one

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## Vic Diehl

I think I have it

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## A. Serdar

> Don't worry about it Jerry. I understand completely 
> 
> The reason I asked is because some of the blades from that era were rehilted later. And that type of "C" guards are popular in the 18th century. Another detail is, some swords were presented to sultan as heirloom or gifts from other countries. New inscriptions are written to these swords also.  That can be misleading when you try to identify sword's origin and age. A sword that was identified as beloning to Suleiman I might actually be a much older sword from Iran, India or Mamluk. Think of a hypothetical 15th century tulwar, sent to Ottoman sultan as a gift in 17th century and rehilted in late 18th century. What a confusion!
> 
> This kilij in picture I sent earlier is one of two famous swords that belongs to Kanuni Suleiman Khan. It is presented in the lobby of Chief of General Staff of Turkish army's office. It is a Turkish kilij but I suspect it to be rehilted at a later date. There are two verses of a poem inscribed to the blade, which very roughly translated as: "When you swing it your enemies fall to the ground, this sword is quenched in wine(meaning blood)"  The poet is Kanuni himself.
> 
> Kanuni's second famous kilij is this one:  This one has a hilt and a cross-guard contemporary to Kanuni's era.


Hi to everyone,
A short note;
For the first sword; Actually the C type hilts are generally belong to arabian peninsula and sometimes refer to North-east africa but not to Turkish-Ottoman type in any period. Maybe it was a matter of taste to owner or rehilter but not popular in Turkish-Ottoman style.
For the second sword; The hilt and a cross-guard are definetly NOT contemporary to Kanuni's era. They are absolute persian types and used for centuries -before and after the Suleiman Khan- maybe a gift -suspect that through the blade geometry- or a rehilted 15-16 century sword.
As a matter of fact most of Ottoman swords rehilted pieces because of the tang and hilt structure of the Ottoman style swords.
Thank you.

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## Vic Diehl

Hermann and I are wrapping up our book this week and hoping some of the experts on this forum can help with a couple of inscriptions listed above. 
Vic

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## A. Alnakas

Hey guys,

Sorry it took me a while to reply. The inscription that Vic have linked says: حبس الحداد كرده habs alHaddad kardah (?) I think it means inscriped/work of Kardah (?) the blacksmith. But this inscription is strange to me (could be done by a non-arab, most likely) because of the use of "habs" which means to withhold or to cage (someone or something) in arabic, usually. Here it seems that the smith have used Habs to mean inscriping.

Am not sure about the name btw, I may have got it wrong and it is non-arab so cant be sure  :Smilie:

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## Vic Diehl

Alnakas:
Thank you for this. I have been told by a number of language specialists that translating very old Arabic is an invitation to argument. This short inscription has been literally around the world and no one but you would even make an attempt -- Hats off to you. This inscription is on an early Mamluk broad sword dated around 1250 CE. 
Again thank you for your efforts on our behalf. I think all of you will enjoy the book we are finishing up. 320+ pages of the best photographs we could make of these edged weapons. The book will be published by Schiffer Publishing so it will get a lot of exposure. We are planning on a few pages of what is called in the business a double gate fold out, which some swords will be across 4 pages and when you open them up they will be life size. More later. Again thanks. Vic

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## A. Alnakas

Vic:

I do not think this is old arabic, its not even "pure" arabic. Most likely its effected by the language of the mamluk who wrote it. Keep in mind that mamluks are non-arabs  :Smilie:

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## Vic Diehl

This is a most complicated subject. Thanks !! Any thoughts on the longer inscription near the top? This is from a captured European Knightly sword that was taken in Palestine.

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## A. Alnakas

Vic, sorry I cant read that. Will need better pictures or to examine it in person.

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## Vic Diehl

Better pic

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## Sancar Ozer

> Hi to everyone,
> A short note;
> For the first sword; Actually the C type hilts are generally belong to arabian peninsula and sometimes refer to North-east africa but not to Turkish-Ottoman type in any period. Maybe it was a matter of taste to owner or rehilter but not popular in Turkish-Ottoman style.
> For the second sword; The hilt and a cross-guard are definetly NOT contemporary to Kanuni's era. They are absolute persian types and used for centuries -before and after the Suleiman Khan- maybe a gift -suspect that through the blade geometry- or a rehilted 15-16 century sword.
> As a matter of fact most of Ottoman swords rehilted pieces because of the tang and hilt structure of the Ottoman style swords.
> Thank you.


Dear Serdar, actually "arab style" C type guards are seen in late 17th to early 18th Ottoman swords. Famous kilij of Selim III is one of the examples that comes to my mind. Shorter, wider kilijs of this era(which some classify as pala) had long thin crossguards or C and even some S type of guards. Here's an example:



Kanuni's kilij in my post is a perfect example of Ottoman classical era Turkish kilij form, with yalman, blade length and angle of curvature. Hilt and guard might be perceived as close to contemporary and later Iranian examples but please keep in mind that before "Memluk" type hilts(thinner crossguard, pear shaped convex "pommel") became widely popular, variations of this type of hilt and guards were the norm for both Ottoman and Safavi empires. It was something that both parties share, not exclusive to one culture. Memluk artisans which Yavuz Selim brought with him started to change Ottoman arms and armour fashion and Kanuni's era was the transition period. After Selim II's time slowly most Ottoman hilts became predomianatly "memluk" in style(keep in mind that I use this term not because this type of hilt was exclusively used in Memluk empire but because it was created after so-called Memluk fashion in Ottoman empire started and this type of hilt was called as mameluke by westerners at a much later date)  but before that (as you can see in the picture) this type of hilt were still widely used. We see this type of hilt on examples of blades in several museums and in both Ottoman and Seljuk miniature paintings. A common feature used in both cultures for centuries can not be identified exclusively and absolutely to one party. Also you should keep in mind that popular Iranian shamshir form, both in hilt and blade shapes, reached to its maturity during and mostly after Kanuni's time. I believe this slightly earlier hilt type is father to both type of hilts:



Interestingly this kilij is also attributed to Kanuni Suleyman Khan. You can see the differences and similarities between this and the "shamsir" hilt in question. If you also think of the hilt of Fatih Mehmed II's famous kilij, you can see the line of evolution from early to classical eras.

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## Jerry H.

> Better pic


Gentlemen,

it would be important to have a translation of the engraving in #25. 

It is a German Crusaders sword captured about (661 hijri/ 1263 CE) in Palestine likely by Mamluk warriors. The sword was returned to Egypt and used as a weapon for a number of years. There is much history behind such an artefact, and maybe this engraving give us a deeper insight into the historical background.

Please keep in mind that all the engravings we are showing to you, fellow members, are the hart nuts to crack. Normal inscriptions on the swords we are showing in the book are already translated by a native Arabic speaker.

So thank you again for any help.

Kindest regards;
Hermann

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## Jerry H.

> Hey guys,
> 
> Sorry it took me a while to reply. The inscription that Vic have linked says: حبس الحداد كرده habs alHaddad kardah (?) I think it means inscriped/work of Kardah (?) the blacksmith. But this inscription is strange to me (could be done by a non-arab, most likely) because of the use of "habs" which means to withhold or to cage (someone or something) in arabic, usually. Here it seems that the smith have used Habs to mean inscriping.
> 
> Am not sure about the name btw, I may have got it wrong and it is non-arab so cant be sure


Hi,

thanks for your help. We have spoken with a friend who speaks Arabic and he is thinking that you are perfectly right. So should we say: "This Arabic inscription is influenced by Mameluk writing and likely says - The work of the smith Kardah"?

Thank you again for your help !

Regstes;
Hermann

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## A. Alnakas

> Hi,
> 
> thanks for your help. We have spoken with a friend who speaks Arabic and he is thinking that you are perfectly right. So should we say: "This Arabic inscription is influenced by Mameluk writing and likely says - The work of the smith Kardah"?
> 
> Thank you again for your help !
> 
> Regstes;
> Hermann


Hey Jerry,

I cannot be sure mate, I can check with my Arabic language professor but I am terribly busy. Still need to visit the Iranian embassy and translate an inscription there!

Regards,

AlNakkas

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## Vic Diehl

AlNakkas:

Thanks for your efforts on our behalf. This translation is very tough, it has already been through the heads of Arabic departments of 3 major universities in the US so no problem.
We are all busy, this was just a last try for this sword. We will be wrapping up this book by weeks end and getting ready to move on to our next project, so again thanks.
Vic

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## L. Braden

The inscription is evidently not Arabic, but Persian or Farsi, and means "Made by Habs [or Hubs or Habsh] the Blacksmith". "Kardah" (literally, "done"), in composition, means "one who has done or performed or accomplished a deed, action, fact, etc." "Habs" or "Habas" or "Hubs" or "Hubus" literally means "Religious Bequest"; but the name is more likely "Habsh" or "Habash", which (colloquially) means "Abyssinian" or "Black", as in such names or nicknames as "Habsh [or Habash] Khan".

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## Vic Diehl

Thanks for this analysis !! Interesting to see. I was expecting an Islamic inscription on such an early sword. Vic

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## A. Alnakas

> The inscription is evidently not Arabic, but Persian or Farsi, and means "Made by Habs [or Hubs or Habsh] the Blacksmith". "Kardah" (literally, "done"), in composition, means "one who has done or performed or accomplished a deed, action, fact, etc." "Habs" or "Habas" or "Hubs" or "Hubus" literally means "Religious Bequest"; but the name is more likely "Habsh" or "Habash", which (colloquially) means "Abyssinian" or "Black", as in such names or nicknames as "Habsh [or Habash] Khan".


Hi Braden,

Your reply would have been perfect if the word "Amal عملwork of" exist in the inscription. I do not dismiss your analysis at all, I think its very interesting but persians are wellknown for using the word Amal or Shughl so maybe were in to something very old here ( am thinking 8th century persia)

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## L. Braden

Greetings!
I should have added that "kardah" is synonymous with "'amal" and "shughl" as meaning "a deed, act(ion), (piece of) work, occupation, vocation" as well as (in composition) "one who has done, made, accomplished, performed, etc."; ex the verb "kardan" (to do, to make); hence the inscription would mean "The work of [or Made by] H. the Haddad". It would be interesting to know if he was indeed an Abyssinian or Ethiopian, or some other of African origin (since "Habash" is colloquially generic for any "black"), and where and when and for whom he did his work, either as a slave or a free man; but I can find nothing about him.

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## Jerry H.

Gentlemen,

thank you so much for your wonderful help with this inscription. This sword was labeled officially as a Mameluk sword from mid 13th century. But if this is Farsi, that could be probably wrong? 
It is a straight bladed broad sword with an overall length of 33 inches and a steel handle. Quillion block reminds to a Mihra.
Thanks again for your great help!

Kindest regards;
Hermann

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## Sancar Ozer

If it is Memluk, you should also consider the possibility that the inscription is in Turkish.

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## L. Braden

This mystery may never be solved! Examining the inscription again, I'm intrigued by a lone letter between the second and third words, placed high enough so as not to cause "al-haddad" to be misread as "al-haddady". If it is a "ya", and if the inscription is in Persian, then it changes the meaning to "H. al-H. of Kurdah" (H. al-H. e Kurdah; or, H. al-H.-i-Kurdah). There were numerous places with that name--in Persia, Iraq, India, etc. Also, altho' pointing or dotting the letter "shin" may not have been necessary in inscriptions, I'm now inclined to think that "Habsh" or "Habash" should be read as "Habs/Habas" or "Hubs/Hubus", meaning "pious endowment" or "religious bequest" (ex the verb "habas" or "to devote or consecrate to pious use"), but not as a personal name, because the first institution of "waqf" or the Islamic law of charity is that of "al-habs fi sabil Allah" or "pious donation in the path [i.e, cause] of God", meaning a donation of weapons, horses, slaves, etc. for the sake of Jihad. Hence, the meaning would be "A donation of Al-H. of K." Even more mysterious is that according to "Ultime Voyage pour la Mecque," the Arabian word "kurda" means "sabre long et droit avec la pointe plate [sic]"; but it must be of a local dialect, because I can't find it so defined in any dictionary. But enough!
P.S. From "Guide Francais-Arabe Vulgaire des Voyageurs et des Francs en Syrie et en Egypte" (1844): "K-r-d-h [in Arabic], kurde, sabre long et droit avec la pointe platte."

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## A. Alnakas

Wow Braden I am impressed by your knowledge. The word kurda may still be in use today for a type of sword but called Garda rather then Kurda.

Am not sure about the inscription and as you said, we may never know!

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## Jerry H.

Gentlemen,

this is impressive. It is the first time that I understand why the translators, my co-author and I have asked before, were not able to translate this engraving. So yes, of course, we have to leave that out. Always sad with such gaps in a book, but what can we do?

I would like to say thank you very much for all this work. Maybe someone has an idea, it would be wonderful. 

Thank you so much.

Best regards;
Hermann

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## L. Braden

More!! "Kurdah" is/was the name of an Arabian tribe; it also means "a Kurd" or "Kurds"; and it's also (rarely) a personal name. (But in this case, wouldn't the correct or common sequence be "Kurdah al-Haddad"?) "Al-Haddad" is also a common surname, ex an ancestral profession, as in "Smith" and "Carpenter", etc. And "Al-Haddady" or "Al-Haddadi" are also common surnames! In this regard, considering that mysterious letter, if the reading isn't "Al-Haddadi", then it could be "Al-Haddad wa [and] Kurdah". Other variations of "h-d-a-d" are "hidad/hudad/huddad" (sharp, intelligent, eloquent). "Hubs" or "habs" also means "a thing dedicated to pious uses". Finally, I find no particular indication that the inscription is Turkish, because all the words and meanings can be found in that language. The only clue could be the script, which is equally elusive; because, except for the last two words, it's not as slanted as Farsi or Urdu would be. (I'm not sure about old Turkish script.) The best conclusion: the meaning of the inscription and the origin of the sword are uncertain. Glad to be of help, and good luck with the project!

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## A. Alnakas

Hey Braden, 

Are you positive that there is an arab tribe named Kurdah? If you mean Kurds then they are a whole different race more close to persians rather then arabs.

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## L. Braden

Hughes' "Dictionary of Islam" mentions "the tribes of Quraish and Kurdah" of "the pre-Islamic Arabs".

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## A. Alnakas

Ehm, a tribe of Kurdah, I never heard it. Can you tell me whats Hughes' source?

I think its either you or Hughes have mistaken Kinnanah for Kurdah.

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## L. Braden

No; it's probably a misprint for "Kindah" or "Kundah", for which there are numerous references (a famous old Arabian tribe!). But so what? We still haven't solved the mystery, and probably never will!

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## A. Alnakas

Yeah Kindah makes more sense, but I highly doubt this has to do with pre-islamic arabia!

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## Jerry H.

> ... But so what? We still haven't solved the mystery, and probably never will!


... so true. :-/

Rgds;
H.

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## L. Braden

The Kindah tribe originated in pre-Islamic Arabia (reputedly Yemen), and continued to thrive thereafter. All the info can be found on Google, Google Books (see, for example, "Al Kindi" by Tony Abboud), Wikipedia, Encyclop(a)edia Britannica, etc. etc.

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