# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  Anyone know of a scabbard for the M1902?

## Eric Schutte

I have recently purchased a M1902 US Army dress officers saber. I need a scabbard for it. Any ideas of how I might find one?

Also, what does the Star of David with the word "proved" signify? Does that indicate a british made blade? Thanks in advance.

Eric

----------


## Sean Scott

It might be tough finding a scabbard, since different manufacturers gave different curves to their blades.  I have a couple of "extras" that were with swords I bought that were *not* original to the swords and did not fit well.  One had even rubbed the nickel off of the blade in a couple of places from being pulled out and forced in repeatedly.

Unless your sword is a Horstmann piece, it's probably not a Magen David, just a six-pointed star.  The "proved" used to mean the sword had passed a rigorous testing regimen, but by the time the M1902 came along had just become a traditional sign of "quality", with no testing having actually been done.

Blades with the star and "proved" brass slug were made in Germany and the US, I've never seen a Wilkinson blade with one but that doesn't mean they don't exist; I've seen later swords with the "proved" merely etched on the blade that were made by Wilkinson, but also by German firms, US makers, Spain, Taiwan and India.

Pics, or at least an exact description of the sword and markings, would help narrow the ID down.

----------


## Rob O'Reilly

> Blades with the star and "proved" brass slug were made in Germany and the US, I've never seen a Wilkinson blade with one but that doesn't mean they don't exist; I've seen later swords with the "proved" merely etched on the blade that were made by Wilkinson, but also by German firms, US makers, Spain, Taiwan and India.


Many British made swords from the mid 1850's onward bore the star of David and Proved, which in fact was originated by Wilkinson and copied by countless other manufacturers.

Rob

----------


## Eric Schutte

Mr. Scott,

If you go to e-bay and look at item # 280134186419, it should show you the sword I have. It has a bone handle which I think would make it an earlier model but I am not an expert. Take a look at the pic on e-bay and let me know what you think.

Thanks,

Eric

----------


## dominic grant

Hi Eric, here is a direct link to the picture album

http://s193.photobucket.com/albums/z...ds1/1902%20us/

----------


## Eric Schutte

Hey Dom, what a small world, but then I guess it would make sense to see you here :Stick Out Tongue: 

I thought I would join this forum for 2 reasons:

1) To get as much info as I can about the sword you were kind enough to sell me, and

2) To try to find a scabbard

Be Well,

Eric

----------


## Sean Scott

> Many British made swords from the mid 1850's onward bore the star of David and Proved, which in fact was originated by Wilkinson and copied by countless other manufacturers.
> 
> Rob


I was speaking specifically to the M1902s.  The only true Magen Davids I've seen on them have been on blades from Horstmann.  All others I can recall seeing simply have a 6-pointed star, like the first two pics below.  The third pic is of a Magen David on a Horstmann M1902.

----------


## Sean Scott

Eric:

I'm on a dialup server in a third-world hole, and it blocks addresses that start with numbers, for some reason.  Basically, I can't see the pics, though I do think I remember the sword in that auction.

Henry V. Allen was an old cutlery and gunsmithing firm that was active from 1812, but I don't know when they stopped operation.  If your blade was imported, as is likely, you'll find a country of origin stamped somewhere around the ricasso of the blade.  Don't forget to look on the spine.  IIRC, that is a fine example of a M1902.

And I recalled that Tom Nardi at SRS does offer to bend scabbards to fit specific blades, it might be worth an email to him when you track a scabbard of the proper length down.  His website is:  http://www.cds1.net/~nardi/swords/index.htm

----------


## Eric Schutte

Sean, thank you for the info.. Now I have a place to start in researching my sword. So does that mean that Henry V. Allen put an imported blade to the hilt to finish it or did that company simply act as a distributor? I will look on the ricasso for a country of origin. I know I am going to sound like a complete dork but you are going to have to educate me. The ricasso is where exactly? (Please understand that this is my first exposure to sword collecting and I know NOTHING at this point.)  :Big Grin: 

Thanks,

Eric

----------


## Bill Goodwin

Eric,


No questions are stupid when starting out....how else will one learn....

The ricasso is the part of the blade that enters the hilt...un-sharpened / unshaped.

You may find it a bit difficult to find a scabbard that fits your blade..exactly. I remember this sword from when I visited Dominic in June.  Different 1902's have different curves to the blades.  Sometimes scabbards for M1902's show up on Ebay...so you may keep an eye peeled there.

I'm posting a pic of my 2 M1902's to show there differences in blade curvature.

Cheers,

          Bill

ps #4 & #5 in the line up are the '02's

----------


## Eric Schutte

Thanks Bill, 

I believe I have officially started on my journey of sword collecting now that I am learning some terminology.

Bill, do you know anything about Henry V. Allen, besides the facts posted by Sean Scott? I am trying to find as much information as I can about this sword.

Thanks,

Eric

----------


## Bill Goodwin

Eric,


Unfortunately I nothing further on Henry Allen. Print reference material on M1902's is very sparse.
I'm guessing, Sean got that maker info. from R. Bezdek's book on American swords.....

I'm always on the look out for any type of reference material (books. articles.etc) on M9102's.

Now that you've been formally bitten by the bug...be prepared to spend alot of time reading....it pays off in the long run.


Cheers, 


Bill

ps you can see more examples of different M1902's on my Photobucket page which can be linked to from my profile.

----------


## Glen C.

Random chatter from the peanut gallery.

Horn grips are within the early range. I don't recall seeing any with horn listed as being made after WWI.

All m1902 swords have (should have) the six pointed star. the six pointed star is not meant as reference to Jerusalam or Judaism but as the star of Damascus and simply signifying quality. It is not a blanket acknowledgment as would be a Masonic  or other fraternal reference to the star of the east. Not my theory (see A2A) but I subscribe to it.

As with other swords, there were many uniform supply companies whose names might show up in the markings. Lists of company and maker names are a great start but tell little of the actualities. Soem are better represented in other sources of company histories and personal biographies.

One would think that the import laws of the late 19th century regarding marking country of origin would mean something indelible but it was/is not.

Again, just chattering.

Cheers

Hotspur; _Bill is almost successful in seducing me with these swords_

----------


## Sean Scott

> All m1902 swords have (should have) the six pointed star.


Sorry, Glen, not correct.  None of the Springfield Armory sabers (the "real" ones, if such a thing exists) have the six-pointed star, and many American manufactured blades do not.  Regulation Standard, Lilley and Ames swords immediately come to mind.  

My guess is that the six-pointed star was added by European (German) manufacturers on imported blades, though it is a feature I like quite a bit...




> As with other swords, there were many uniform supply companies whose names might show up in the markings. Lists of company and maker names are a great start but tell little of the actualities. Soem are better represented in other sources of company histories and personal biographies.


One of the reasons it is difficult to get a handle on the M1902 is that many, if not most, of the imported blades were stamped or acid etched with nothing but the name of whatever company sold the sword retail, and the numbers of those are in the hundreds at least.  Reasonably precise dating is difficult, and relies principally on manufacture methods and materials that were not evenly applied among the manufacturers.    

That's probably a major part of why these swords are relatively ignored by collectors...it just so darned difficult to say exactly what you have.

----------


## J.G. Hopkins

> That's probably a major part of why these swords are relatively ignored by collectors...it just so darned difficult to say exactly what you have.


I imagine that is why the Springfield Armory 1902s get such good prices is that they produced those swords for a finite period of time, which makes dating them much easier.

Jonathan

----------


## Sean Scott

> I imagine that is why the Springfield Armory 1902s get such good prices is that they produced those swords for a finite period of time, which makes dating them much easier.
> 
> Jonathan


I agree.  The ease of identifying the year-range of manufacture by the etching design, combined with the known (and small) numbers produced make the SA swords much more amenable to collecting.

Unfortunately for me, they've been getting increased attention lately...

----------


## Bill Goodwin

The S-A '02's and the metal grip Lilleys usually go quick and fetch a nice sum.  A metal grip Lilley just ended today on Ebay, that would have made a nice addition to my 2, but I couldn't bid due to being at work.........



Cheers, 

           Bill

(Glen, you've returned the favor by sparking my interest  in the American eagle pommels...so what goes around, comes around  :Smilie:   )

          Bill

----------


## Rob E. Ozias

I have an '02 with leather covered grips, the usual pattern on the blade, no six-pointed star and no markings except "MADE IN USA" on the ricasso....date?

----------


## Sean Scott

> I have an '02 with leather covered grips, the usual pattern on the blade, no six-pointed star and no markings except "MADE IN USA" on the ricasso....date?


Is the blade secured with a peen or a nut?

Is the guard and pommel made of nickel-silver, plated brass, or plated steel?

With that kind of '02, the closest you could hope for would be a rough decade estimate...

----------


## Rob E. Ozias

The stepped pommel is secured with a T shaped nut which is oval to match the steps.  The guard, backstrap etc., appear to be nickle plated steel.

----------


## Sean Scott

Well, it's probably no older than the late 1930s.  Peened pommels and nickel-silver furniture began to disappear around the mid-1930s.  

And a leather-covered grip was not regulation, so IMO was probably not used by an officer...though observance of regs seems to have been, umm, rather lax back then...

----------


## Glen C.

Thanks for the correction Sean, that's what I get for taking internet information too seriously (or simply misreading it).

Cheers

Hotspur; _there sure are a lot of these out there_

----------


## dominic grant

with respect to the sword Eric bought i seem to remember when Bill visited he commented on the direction/angle of the American motto? 

http://s193.photobucket.com/albums/z...t=P1010009.jpg

just to add to this disussion  :Smilie:

----------


## J.G. Hopkins

> with respect to the sword Eric bought i seem to remember when Bill visited he commented on the direction/angle of the American motto? 
> 
> http://s193.photobucket.com/albums/z...t=P1010009.jpg
> 
> just to add to this disussion


I read somewhere on the 'net that blades that have their decoration with that orientation (perpendicular to the blade) tend to be later, while those with the decoration parallel to the blade are earlier.  Sound familiar to anyone?

Jonathan

----------


## Glen C.

What I don't know would fill oceans but from about 1790 to the 1840 regulations, swords seem to display the eagle without putting a crick in your neck.

With the 1902, I really don't know but have a hunch it is more a matter of how the maker did things, early or late. I do know that by the ACW, most everything seemed longwise, as opposed to upright. I do know I have seen very new 1902s that are longwise.

Cheers

Hotspur; _from a five-ball Upson_

----------


## Bill Goodwin

Jonathan, 

thats right.  Can't remember the exact date as to when it changed (1930's ? ) but yes , the earlier swords have the "US" and "E Pluribus..." eagle banner length -ways on the blade as opposed to across (width).  Example of early model below.


Bill

----------


## Rob E. Ozias

Sean.  As discussed above, my '02 with leather grips, pommel nut and plated steel guard appears to be from no earlier than the 30's however the banner proclaiming "E Pluribus Unum" is not only horizontal to the blade, but, if you hold the sword with the guard to the left and the edge down, both the banner and the eagle holding it are upside down...does anyone find this to be common?  These are really not my specialty so I have not handled many.

----------


## Sean Scott

> I read somewhere on the 'net that blades that have their decoration with that orientation (perpendicular to the blade) tend to be later, while those with the decoration parallel to the blade are earlier.  Sound familiar to anyone?
> 
> Jonathan


I had heard this also, but as near as I can tell from looking at these, it's more of an import-domestic issue than an earlier-later, at least up to the end of WWII.

Domestic blades generally have the eagle parallel; imported blades, especially German, generally have it perpendicular.

Post WWII...current offerings from Spain show the eagle perpendicular; swords from Windlass Steelcrafts in India have it parallel.

Embrace the confusion.... :Smilie:

----------


## Sean Scott

> Sean.  As discussed above, my '02 with leather grips, pommel nut and plated steel guard appears to be from no earlier than the 30's however the banner proclaiming "E Pluribus Unum" is not only horizontal to the blade, but, if you hold the sword with the guard to the left and the edge down, both the banner and the eagle holding it are upside down...does anyone find this to be common?  These are really not my specialty so I have not handled many.


This is not uncommon; I'd consider it to be the norm.  Usually, either the US or the eagle are "upside down".  This is because sabers are traditionally, for whatever reason, laid down unsheathed with the edge up.

This would allow your eagle to be correctly oriented.

I have heard many theories as to why sabers are laid edge-up, and have even been reprooved for displaying a saber edge-down.  The reprover's reason was that in time of war, sabers were displayed edge-up, in peacetime, edge-down.

I do not know, but I do know that the etching on at least one side should be oriented correctly if the saber is displayed edge-up...provided they are not of the type with perpendicular markings, of course...

[Edited to add a photo of what I'm talking about...three sabers displayed edge-up, the top two with the eagles properly oriented, the bottom with US properly oriented.  I haven't seen a pattern as far as which is oriented...hope this pic is clear after resizing...]

----------


## Glen C.

Hi Sean,




> have heard many theories as to why sabers are laid edge-up, and have even been reprooved for displaying a saber edge-down. The reprover's reason was that in time of war, sabers were displayed edge-up, in peacetime, edge-down.


This may also somewhat embrace older edge or spine facing perpendicular eagles. Mowbray writes about it some regarding engravings starting in the federal period.




> I do not know, but I do know that the etching on at least one side should be oriented correctly if the saber is displayed edge-up...provided they are not of the type with perpendicular markings, of course..


Now :Confused:  :Big Grin: I'm confused. :Smilie: 

Cheers

Hotspur; _confused but actually learning something_

----------


## Sean Scott

> This may also somewhat embrace older edge or spine facing perpendicular eagles. Mowbray writes about it some regarding engravings starting in the federal period.


Hi, Glen!

My first exposure to the "edge-up" thing was actually in my officer's basic 20-someodd years ago, and was attributed to a practice prevalent among continental officers in the Napoleonic era.  

But the elderly lady trying to turn us knuckledraggers into gentlemen seemed to have a tradition for everything, so YMMV.

----------


## David Critchley

British swords don't have the same freedom. The College of Heralds stipulate that where the Royal Coat of Arms or Garter Arms are used, they have to be the right way up. Thus British swords should always be engraved with the arms the right way up when the sword point is upper most. 

These stipulations are _still_ the case. My organisation uses the Garter Crest in our signage (we must be one of the few organisations that don't own our own logo!)
The College of Heralds insist the Royal crest is placed above all other titling etc in printed literature.

----------


## Bill Goodwin

Sean.

The pic you posted is interesting.  The 1902's I have, eagles are correct edge up and the US is correct edge down.  Thanks for posting pics BTW.


Cheers,

            Bill

----------


## Sean Scott

> Thanks for posting pics BTW.


Workin' fo da peeps!  I'm just happy to run into other M1902 collectors.  It's kinda lonely out there... :Wink: 

If anyone has any pics of their blades and markings, I'd really like to see them!  I'm trying to start a photo file of every M1902 I see...I'm bound to learn *something*...

----------


## Eric Schutte

OK Everyone, I am really confused, my eagle is perpindicular to the blade which would make it a later model and yet because of the bone/horn handle it is dated pre WW I, do I have this right? :Confused: 

Thanks,

Eric

----------


## Sean Scott

> OK Everyone, I am really confused, my eagle is perpindicular to the blade which would make it a later model and yet because of the bone/horn handle it is dated pre WW I, do I have this right?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Eric


I dorked this up, see below...

----------


## Rob O'Reilly

> If anyone has any pics of their blades and markings, I'd really like to see them!  I'm trying to start a photo file of every M1902 I see.


Sean,

Here is my 1902, blade marked “M.C. LILLEY & CO. COLOMBUS, O.” , eagle correct when blade UP, U.S. correct when blade DOWN.  Grip is ebony or horn.

Rob

----------


## Sean Scott

> OK Everyone, I am really confused, my eagle is perpindicular to the blade which would make it a later model and yet because of the bone/horn handle it is dated pre WW I, do I have this right?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Eric


OK, I finally saw the pics (remembered that proxy I pay for)...

I would tentatively date your sword to the early 30s.  I have seen horn grips on a sword with dated etching of 1934, and the perpendicular eagle on blades marked "Germany" that would seem to date from the early 30's.  Your sword has several early features, such as a peened tang, horn grip, and nickeled brass guard and pommel.  It does show some of what to me are later elements, though...having the "Proved" etched instead of on an inlaid brass slug, and that eagle which to me is classic German import...

The etching pattern is similar to an early Horstmann example I have, which I figured was domestically made due to parallel eagle orientation and lack of a country of origin mark.  I didn't see a country mark in the pics of your sword...is there one on the spine (the narrow top of the blade)?

----------


## Bill Goodwin

> If anyone has any pics of their blades and markings, I'd really like to see them!  I'm trying to start a photo file of every M1902 I see...I'm bound to learn *something*...



Here's 2 more I found that haven't made it to my Photobucket file (yet)

My 2 '02's

Francis Bannerman - New York- horn grip (pre 1910)
William C. Rowland - Phila.  - Bakelite grip (1920's )


Cheers,

           Bill

----------


## Eric Schutte

Sean,

I looked all over the ricasso and the spine and either I am blind as a bat, (Possible) or there is no makers name on this sword. If not, what does that mean exactly? Is it possible that Henry V. Allen actually made this sword?

Thanks,

Eric

----------


## Sean Scott

> Sean,
> I looked all over the ricasso and the spine and either I am blind as a bat, (Possible) or there is no makers name on this sword. If not, what does that mean exactly? Is it possible that Henry V. Allen actually made this sword?
> Thanks,
> Eric



Well, maybe…but I don’t think so.

Bezdek (Vol. I;  Vol. II has less info) lists Henry V. Allien in the Sword Dealers section, as active from 1830-1948.  The earlier dates I gave you were for Henry *Allen*, hasty mistake on my part.

Bezdek says they operated a factory in France, but doesn’t say what was manufactured there (Allien was also a large regalia and uniform dealer), and also says they “made” M1902 sabers.  Whether this is in the “forged the blades in their Lyon factory” sense, or the “cutlers who assembled swords on blades from other makers” sense is unclear, though he did put them in the Sword Dealers section and not the Sword Makers.  

French blades were used on some very early M1902s imported by Ridabock, but I have found two of Allien’s fraternal presentation swords with Germany marked blades; this would argue against an organic blade forging capability.

Arthur Wylie says in his book that Allien was a sword cutler who made presentation swords “in the late 1800s and early 1900s.”

Harold Peterson says they were sword cutlers that made presentation swords “sometime between 1870 and 1920.”  

I don’t know when they stopped selling swords, but Allien was still making and selling uniform items during WWII.  

In the literature they are consistently called cutlers, and when combined with their confirmed use of German blades it leads me to believe they did not make their own steel.

As for dating your sword:
Peened tang…used through the mid-‘30s.
Horn grip…the latest dated saber I’ve seen with a horn grip was 1934.
Nickel-plated brass furniture…still used today, at least on WKC sabers.

I think the eagle orientation is a domestic-import thing, but my opinion is based on lesser experience than that of a dealer who wrote a pretty good guide to dating M1902s that was posted on Ebay’s info pages.  I can’t find it, but I saved it.  She is an advocate of the eagle orientation being related to chronology, and says the parallel eagle was used up until the 1930s, and the perpendicular eagle coming into use in the mid-‘30s.  Even if the chronology theory is correct, this says there was probably some overlap between the two designs among the manufacturers with contemporary swords carrying both designs, and it’s my personal opinion that the perpendicular eagle first appeared on imported German blades.

Another indicator of a date of a 1930s date *to me* is  that etched “Proved” disc.  I simply have not seen a saber of confirmed early date with that etched disc.  But I haven’t seen them all, and just when I think I see a pattern some sword will pop up that defies my pigeonhole.

Part of the pain of collecting M1902s...

----------


## Bill Goodwin

> .
> 
> 
> 
>   But I havent seen them all, and just when I think I see a pattern some sword will pop up that defies my pigeonhole.
> 
> Part of the pain of collecting M1902s...



So true......there are so many makers / & retailers of 1902's its surprising the variances that pop up.  From my understanding, few actually made their swords, as most just imported blades to mount up to other hardware.  Names like Springfield Armoury, MC Lilley / Lilley-Ames are just a couple that most likey manufactured the swords.  Again, just my view......it usually gets a kick in the teeth when some else pops up.


Cheers,

          Bill

----------


## Eric Schutte

Sean and Bill,

Thanks for the insight. I must admit I am a little disappointed as I believed this was a pre WW 1 piece but it appears I am mistaken. Such is the price of learning...  :Big Grin: 

Thanks again,

Eric

----------


## Sean Scott

> Sean and Bill,
> 
> Thanks for the insight. I must admit I am a little disappointed as I believed this was a pre WW 1 piece but it appears I am mistaken. Such is the price of learning... 
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> Eric


I wouldn't be disappointed.  You have a clean example of a quality pre-WWII M1902 that would be a nice addition to any M1902 or 20th Century collection.

"Nice sword."

----------


## George Wheeler

Good morning Gents,

I am new to the Sword Forum as Sean directed me here when we were discussing a presentation Model 1902 Officer Sword of mine on another forum.  I hope I am not interrupting.

If I may add my two-cents about 1902 Off Sword construction, I will address the orientation of the etching on the blade.  I think it has less to do with time of manufacture, or the blade being edge up or down, than with where the sword was made.  That is to say, the 1902 is a right handed sword (the branched guard being on the right hand side of the grip and the grip finger grooves being styled for the right hand only).  Therefore, the spread wing eagle and the US on the other side of the blade are both correctly viewed if the sword is held in the right hand and turned over to look at either side of the blade.  This is also normally the case with any factory presentation etching found on the blade.  Not always, but usually.  Engraving (not acid etching) is a different matter as that is often not applied at the factory and is not part of the etching template or custom lettering.  

Try holding your sword in your right hand and see what I mean.  

Eagles, and US, that are correctly oriented when viewed with the tip of the blade straight up in the "Present Sabre" position are often imported.  At least the blades are often etched and imported from Germany.  Early eagles of this type (from say the US Civil War period) are very Germanic and were the style that the German sword makers were familiar with.  Also, the Great Seal style eagle (as seen on US Army Officer peaked caps) will only fit on the blade in this orientation.  This particular eagle is identified by the cloud surrounded by a circle of stars above the eagle's head.  So, this eagle is generally later than either the eagle with wings spread the length of the blade or the eagle with wingtips up toward the head with feet toward the guard but no clouds and stars as seen in the Great Seal of the US.  

Here is an example of a circa 1930 Model 1902 that was made by Carl Eickhorn in Solingen and bears the Great Seal style of eagle with its feet toward the guard.

George

----------


## Sean Scott

Welcome to the Forums, George, and thanks for posting your insights!

----------


## Bill Goodwin

Yes George, thanks for posting even more good info. / views. 



Oh.....where are my manners......welcome!


Cheers,

            Bill


ps wonder if the Mods would turn this into a Sticky thread?

----------


## Eric Schutte

Welcome George!! I appreciate your insight on 1902 eagles. Now I am really gonna confuse you. I purchased a sword from Dominic Grant who is an excellent source of antique swords for sale in Great Britain. He thought it was pre WW 1 due to the nickel hilt, and bone handle with a peened tang. The US on my sword runs parallel to the blade while the eagle runs perpindicular to the blade. Also, try as I might I can find no makers name on this sword other that Henry V. Allen, New York. I understand he was a distributor but not a maker so the question remains, who made it and just when was it made? OR is this an older hilt fitted to a newer blade? Ahhhhh the plot thickens...... :Big Grin: 

Thanks,

Eric

----------


## George Wheeler

Sean, Bill, & Eric... thanks for the welcome.   :Big Grin: 

These Model 1902 swords have been made for over 100 years and they are confusing because of the long time of manufacture and the many different makers/dealers/distributors.  

Peterson cites his circa 1964 theory that early swords had soft nickel hilts and later swords had plated steel hilts.  Later authors cite their theories on how to date these swords and I think they are good rules of thumb from observed differences.  I tend to look at these differences as manufacturer variations as I have seen few real hard and fast rules over the years.  For instance, the hilt design tends to make the guards vulnerable to bending.  So, some are thick and some are steel and some are reenforced.  I tend to look at these things as manufacturer variations rather than a strict determination of age.

Age can be more or less determined by the maker marking but even that is a rule of thumb subject to error.  The Eickhorn made 1902 sword that I show above has the Eickhorn squirrel within a double oval marking.  There are two of these almost identical trademarks, with the later one having the letters "C.E." under the squirrel.  So, this mark can be dated fairly closely to after 20 January 1921 as their earlier trademark of two back-to-back squirrels over "C.E." was granted on 19 June 1906.  Tom Johnson's books date the marking on this particular sword between 1934 and 1935 based on his study of Eickhorn export catalogs.  I think this is fairly close and closely dates this particular Model 1902 Sword.

The plot really does thicken when sword "assemblers" are thrown into the mix.  Most sword "makers" are assemblers in that they do not make all their own parts in-house.  This is particularly true in the US with these Model 1902 Officer Swords.  Ames made almost all of their bits and pieces but they also made variations within their own product lines.  At least two different variations of this basic regulation sword that I am aware of.  More if you factor in fancy presentations.    Other "makers" made some parts but bought various bits and pieces from other manufacturers.  The most noticeable being the blades.   

Let me get some photos up to explain these variations.

Eric, does your Henry V. Allen sword have a US or foreign made blade?

----------


## George Wheeler

Here are two examples of Lilley-Ames 1902 sword hilts.  Both date between 1925-1951 because of the "Lilley-Ames Co / Columbus / Ohio" markings.  

The dull (unpolished) sword has a reenforced hilt with impressed creases in the backstrap and a thick guard with reenforced weak points as can be seen.  

The bright (polished) sword has a plain backstrap and guard without any reenforcement.  

Neither guard is steel but both are maleable metal that will bend under force.  Both blades are peened at the pommel.  So, here are two variations of the same sword, by the same maker, during the same time frame.  This is not a matter of cost it seems because the bright sword has an extra cost custom presentation blade.

----------


## Eric Schutte

George,

Try as I might, I can't seem to find ANY makers name or mark on this sword other than the Henry V. Allen displayed at the bottom of the blade, so I can't tell you where the blade was made simply because I don't know. It's frustarting to me because I'd like to know what I have. Oh well. That is why they call it a "hobby".  :Big Grin: 

See ya,

Eric

----------


## George Wheeler

Eric,

Allen is generally considered to be a maker but I suspect he assembled more than manufactured as he was a militaria retailer who sold lots of different military items.  Your blade could have been made in the US or Germany (in all probability) but was etched, or stamped, with Allen's trade marking. 

Here is another anomoly.  I show two swords with different maker marks on the blade.  One is marked Lilley-Ames and the other is marked Wm Rowland.  William Rowland of Phila, Pa. is generally considered to be a maker who went out of business in 1921.  If this is true, he was no more than an assembler it seems because his sword is identical to the other one shown marked Lilley-Ames and this trade marking supposedly did not appear until 1925.

You be the judge if these were made by the same hands.

Notice the shape of the hilts where the black grip overrides the end of the pommel and gives a rather pouty lower lip appearance.  Notice the blade etching templates are identical, particularly the ends of the etching.  Notice the scabbards both have the same peculiar flat throatpiece and drain holes in the back of the scabbard drag.

----------


## Bill Goodwin

Would agree George in that Rowland was probably no more than a assembler / retailer.  My Rowland blade is marked "Germany".  Also I've seen other William C. Rowlands and the actual makers / retailer stamp / etching differ.  The same with my Francis Bannerman.... have seen a variation as far as the makers stamp / etch goes.

Too, I recently saw on Ebay a William C. Rowland with a metal grip.  Up to that point, I thought only M C Lilley and Springfield Armoury made 1902's with metal grips.   Just goes to show, once you think you've got a decent grab on things....up pops something out of the blue......

As George was making mention of grip variations, if you look at the pics I posted of my 2, notice how much smaller the bone grip on the Bannerman is than the Bakelite grip of the Rowland.

Again, great examples George....thanx




Bill

----------


## George Wheeler

Bill,

Excellent information on your Rowland sword with a German blade.  The information on the metal gripped 1902 is also new to me as I have seen very few of these over the years.  The Rowland sword that I show above has a blade stamped "MADE IN USA" at the ricasso next to the guard.  I suspect that Rowland either bought parts from Ames or simply had Ames manufacture this sword (wholesale) with his etched trademark/name on the ricasso. 

I find this particular Rowland sword interesting because it seems to have been made between 1902 and 1920 if Richard Bezdek is correct in his research in "American Swords and Sword Makers."  I suspect the end of WWI helped the demise of Rowland as the demand for US Army swords would have gone from hot to cold in 1919.  This would correspond with the time when Ames was almost bankrupt and had been bought by Frank Henderson who was operating as Henderson-Ames.  Ames continued operateration as the Ames Sword Company until finally bought out by M.C. Lilley in 1925.  Again, (according to Bezdek) the Lilley-Ames marking did not surface offcially until 1931, when it was changed from The Lilley Company.  

The other Lilley-Ames sword I show alongside the circa 1902-1920 Rowland sword is dated 1939 in the presentation etch.  So this means that these two swords were made no less than some 20 years apart.  Yet, they exhibit the same manufacturing characteristics.  This seems to be one reason why it is so difficult to correctly date these swords by various manufacturing quirks.

George

----------


## Bill Goodwin

About that steel grip William C. Rolwand.....you can still view the listing even though the bidding has ended  Ebay item # 320171547260.


Bill

----------


## Sean Scott

> I thought only M C Lilley and Springfield Armoury made 1902's with metal grips.


SA made metal grips???

----------


## Eric Schutte

Sean or George, or anyone else who wants to comment, 

So is it possible or even probable that the Henry V. Allen co. from New York assembled this sword by mating an older handle to a newer blade?

Thanks,

Eric

----------


## Sean Scott

> Sean or George, or anyone else who wants to comment, 
> 
> So is it possible or even probable that the Henry V. Allen co. from New York assembled this sword by mating an older handle to a newer blade?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Eric


I don't see any reason to think so...production was more or less continuous, so components would have been continually used to make product.  You get mismatches like you describe when production halts for a long time (years) and then is started back up again, or when a maker buys old surplus from another maker.

And your sword seems perfectly consistent with a 1930s-vintage M1902...

----------


## George Wheeler

I agree with Sean.  Ames is one of few sword companies that made all their own parts from scratch.  Even Ames might use old stock parts to assemble swords so earlier blades might be assembled onto newer hilts and vice-versa.  Sword producers were making a product and used the, "parts-is-parts" philosophy.  I am sure Allen simply used available parts when producing your sword.  That is why I feel it is very difficult to precisely nail down a specific time when these swords were manufactured.  The exception is when they are dated.

----------


## Eric Schutte

Sean and George,

Once again, thanks for the insight. I have only been a part of this forum for 1 month and already I have learned a TON!

Thanks again,

Eric

----------


## George Wheeler

> About that steel grip William C. Rolwand.....you can still view the listing even though the bidding has ended  Ebay item # 320171547260.
> 
> 
> Bill


Gents,

I would like to bring this thread back up in order to ask what type of metal grips anyone may have observed on these 1902 Officer swords?

I have a 1902 sword marked, "The M.C. Lilley & Co. Columbus, O." that has a metal grip as might be expected from this maker.  This particular sword has a one-piece grip/backstrap/ferrule made as a single brass casting.  The separate guard is also cast in brass and the entire hilt is nickel plated.  There is no paint finish on the grips.  

Has anyone seen these 1902 metal grips made as a separate piece or painted or cast in steel or nickel or any other metal?

George

----------


## Bill Goodwin

George,

Here are two photos of metal grip 1902's I have on file.  Both are MC Lilley and one shows some signs of black paint at one time.  Are far as the separate casting of backstrap, ferrule,...unsure...one of these looks as though it may be more than one piece construction....

----------


## George Wheeler

Bill,

Thanks for the photos.  These two swords appear to be identical to mine.  Same maker marking and same hilt.  My guard is plated brass as is my one-piece grip/backstrap/ferrule.  The blade is peened to the hilt as in the two that you show.  One thing that I notice is that all three examples seem to have a polished backstrap and ferrule but a brush finished grip area.  This may have been to hold black paint if the grip was to be painted.  I suppose that one might have been able to order the sword with either a black painted grip or one that was simply plated?

Does anyone know how the metal grips on the Rowland or Springfield swords were finished?  Plated or polished or painted?  

George

----------


## R. Hoq

Since we're on the topic of m1902's George, will you post up the pics of the Phillipine Constabulary variant?  Sorry for the thread hijack

----------


## Bill Goodwin

> Since we're on the topic of m1902's George, will you post up the pics of the Phillipine Constabulary variant?  Sorry for the thread hijack




Not George, but here's a couple of pics of a P-C....

----------


## Brian Mason

Hi all. I am bumping this thread because i learned a lot from it. I also emailed Bill about my sword and he gave me some very valuable info about it. 

Looks like it's a pre-WWI M.C. Lilley & Co M1902. The grip looks to be ebony. there used to be a leather tassel hanging from it, but that disappeared sometime when i was a kid (in fact, i'm probably responsible for losing it when I was a kid). The scabbard is dented and scratched a bit, but the sword itself is in great condition. 

My great grandfather gave this to my father and he passed it along to me after he died. It's proudly hanging in my office.

I decided to post it as another example of the variety of etchings. 

Sorry for the flash on the pictures. Enjoy!

----------


## Peter Walker

> Sean and George,
> 
> Once again, thanks for the insight. I have only been a part of this forum for 1 month and already I have learned a TON!
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> Eric


Eric, 

Welcome to the forum ! 

and just a bit of trivia about your sword.....I had my sweaty hands on that same saber a few years back when I visited Dom's place (AKA 'Ye olde sword shoppe'  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): ) on at least two occasions I picked it up.... but always put it down as I said to myself '...steady...don't be tempted by the 'Americans'... concentrate on the British swords!'.....
....It's good to see it finally went to a good home ! ..  

Cheers Peter

PS If you ever decide to do anything rash with it... please wipe off my DNA ! :Big Grin:

----------


## George Wheeler

> Hi all. I am bumping this thread because i learned a lot from it. I also emailed Bill about my sword and he gave me some very valuable info about it. 
> 
> Looks like it's a pre-WWI M.C. Lilley & Co M1902. The grip looks to be ebony. there used to be a leather tassel hanging from it, but that disappeared sometime when i was a kid (in fact, i'm probably responsible for losing it when I was a kid). The scabbard is dented and scratched a bit, but the sword itself is in great condition. 
> 
> My great grandfather gave this to my father and he passed it along to me after he died. It's proudly hanging in my office.
> 
> I decided to post it as another example of the variety of etchings. 
> 
> Sorry for the flash on the pictures. Enjoy!


Brian,

Thanks for showing your 1902 sword!  It is always nice to have a family piece in your home.  And as to damage, I distinctly recall sword fighting with a couple of circa 1840 Militia swords at my grandmother's when I was a kid.  Nowadays I hate it when I see similar swords that have been mistreated by kids because I recall that I was just as unknowingly destructive in my youth.  I wish I still had those two swords today.

George

----------


## Brian Mason

Thanks George. This thing has always been hanging around somewhere, ever since i can remember. My dad used to yell at me for grabbing it all the time, but it was just so cool as a kid, that i couldn't help myself. Last night, when i finally decided to research it again, was the first time I have actually grabbed it since I put it on the wall 5 years ago. 

luckily, it seems as though I never actually tried to play with it other than hold it. it's in very good shape. The grip has some wear and discoloration where the fingers fold under. This tells me it was actually handled a lot before my great grandfather gave it to my dad. Not sure how it got into the family to begin with though. I wish i knew who used it and for how long. A lot of history that i'll never know.

So, was the M1902 strictly a ceremonial sword for parades and such?

----------


## James B.

I have the Eickhorn Solingen factory  correspondence from the 1920s and 30s on these swords. It is pretty cool 100s of pages.... I'm working on scan it all in to a reference... Regards:  James

----------


## George Wheeler

> So, was the M1902 strictly a ceremonial sword for parades and such?


Brian, 

The US Civil War swords were pretty much the last real US combat swords that were actually utilized in wartime.  I think that CS General NB Forrest was reputed to have killed some 31 Union Soldiers in hand to hand combat and many of those with his sword.   The lighter 1872 regulation swords were more badges of rank for the individual services than useful in combat.  The regulation 1902 Army Officer sword was an attempt to make one generic sword for all US Army officers and was not used in combat that I am aware of.  Of course... never say never because somebody will always put a round peg into a square hole.  I suppose the Patton swords were the last that were designed for mounted combat but again, they never saw use in anger that I am aware of.

George

----------


## Bill Goodwin

Brian,

just another added tid-bit that you may or may not already know....

the M1902 pattern is still used in today's Army.


cheers,

Bill

----------


## Brian Mason

You guys are the best! Thanks!

Who is making these swords these days?

----------


## James B.

In Germany there are two.. Frank Schmitz factory and WKC both in Solingen.. Regards:  James

----------


## Sean Scott

> In Germany there are two.. Frank Schmitz factory and WKC both in Solingen.. Regards:  James


And neither compare remotely with the pre-WWII sabers.  Wilkinson was probably the last to make something resembling a weapon.

----------


## James B.

One of the Solingen Manufactures was importing blades from India and marking them (SOLINGEN) They got in quite a lot of trouble over this!

----------


## George Wheeler

> In Germany there are two.. Frank Schmitz factory and WKC both in Solingen.. Regards:  James


James,

It appears that Schmitz has taken over the E u. F Hörster logo.  I never heard of him before... did he simply buy the logo or was he somehow affiliated with Hörster in the past?

And, who got in trouble marking the Indian blades with "Solingen?"  That is certainly not the way to make friends with your neighbors in Solingen.  

George

----------


## James B.

Frank Worked for the Hörster firm. I have been to the company many times in my trips to Solingen...  He is one of the last sword smiths (blade grinder fitter etc..) who went through a full apprenticeship. He is a Great guy kind of slow because he is a hands on guy.. It is a family business.  He uses one of the sword rolls that Eickhorn used.
      The Indian made sword blades I really do not want to say much more as I believe it ended up in the court system in Germany.
      I personally think the quality of the current  German made swords is not bad... The sword business is hurting in Germany because of the Euro and  competition from Spain ,China and India...
 Regards:  James

----------

