# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  Spanish cuphilt rapier

## Magnus K

Comments welcome on this 17thC Spanish cuphilt rapier. Overall length 114cm. Shallow fuller has signature "TOMAS DE AIALAS." Double edged blade with lentilar cross section. Oblate pommel with tang nut.

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## Eric Fairbanks

Magnus, you might find this thread interesting. I recently purchased one of these long cup hilts. 114 cm must be at least a 40 inch blade. I assume rehilts of swept hilt blades but would love to hear Juan, Javier or Gene's opinions. I get the all overs just looking at these swords. Beautiful sword. Eric

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...t=#post1231058

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## Magnus K

Bump

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## Magnus K

> Magnus, you might find this thread interesting. I recently purchased one of these long cup hilts. 114 cm must be at least a 40 inch blade. I assume rehilts of swept hilt blades but would love to hear Juan, Javier or Gene's opinions. I get the all overs just looking at these swords. Beautiful sword. Eric
> 
> http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...t=#post1231058


Thank you for your comment Eric. I share your sentiment with Spanish swords which get the imagination flying, knowing the history of this remarkable country and former territories... 114cm is 45.6 inches. I understand the Aiala or Ayala signature was widely copied at the time as were so many other famous names. I would welcome any comments from other members in this forum.

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## Juan J. Perez

Hi to all.

I write in a hurry, quite busy these days. This rapier, no matter how handsome, could be a composite. The arms of the hilt are somehow distorted, as to accommodate a shorter cup. In addition, I think that there could be signs of a welding repair where the knuckle guard meets the forward quillion. 

Regarding the blade, the inscription is surely spurious, but that was almost customary regarding Tomás de Ayala, and in my point of view it doesn't detract anything to the sword. I'd bet it was made in Solingen, Spanish counterfeits were rarer, and these lenticular sections match better with a German origin. It can be perfectly contemporary to the sword in style, but could also be a later match. Impossible to say without carefully inspecting the sword. Or even inspecting it...

Best,
Juan J.

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## Magnus K

> Hi to all.
> 
> I write in a hurry, quite busy these days. This rapier, no matter how handsome, could be a composite. The arms of the hilt are somehow distorted, as to accommodate a shorter cup. In addition, I think that there could be signs of a welding repair where the knuckle guard meets the forward quillion. 
> 
> Regarding the blade, the inscription is surely spurious, but that was almost customary regarding Tomás de Ayala, and in my point of view it doesn't detract anything to the sword. I'd bet it was made in Solingen, Spanish counterfeits were rarer, and these lenticular sections match better with a German origin. It can be perfectly contemporary to the sword in style, but could also be a later match. Impossible to say without carefully inspecting the sword. Or even inspecting it...
> 
> Best,
> Juan J.


Thank you for your comment, Juan. This sword has clearly seen some use and it would only be natural to see some modifications during its life. Whether these changes were contemporary or not are hard to tell. I must confess to never seen the pas d’ane attached to the cup sides with rivets like that before, although it looks very elegant. Also, it looks like the grip was shortened and the far end of the knuckle bow forced towards the pommel so that the bow is not symmetric. This could well be a customized ”field” alteration by the owner. Even if the blade may be Solingen made, the sword is very much in the Spanish style and can be presumed to have been used by a Spaniard. So it could be described as a Spanish sword with probably a German made Solingen blade.

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## Magnus K

The fuller on the other side is marked ”T O L E D O”. The photo ended up upside down for some reason... Hope you can still read the mark.

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## Gene Wilkinson

Hi Magnus

It's a lovely sword.
Can you show us some pictures close-up inside the cup?
As Juan observes, there are some odd elements.
It's difficult to see if they are repairs from these pictures (good though they are).
My initial feeling is that it's been polished and for whatever reason some areas have an uneven surface rust forming.
But as I say it's difficult to see from the pictures.
The rosette washers on the fixing rivets are unusual, but don't seem beyond the scope of these swords.
The placement of them, is also unusual (mid cup), but not unheard of.

Credit for pic: https://www.gunsamerica.com/90352391...ilt-Rapier.htm

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## Gene Wilkinson

Another mid guard connection but not the same rosettes: http://www.andrewbottomley.com/x-x-x...6406-264-p.asp

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## Eric Fairbanks

It is truly amazing the diversity of these cup hilts. Good eye Gene.

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## Magnus K

Yes many thanks for your comments, Gene. Also many thanks for posting the related pictures. Interesting to see that the pas d’ane were sometimes attached to the sides of the cup rather than the bottom. Also reassuring that rosette washers were sometimes used on the rivets. How would burgeoning rust best be treated? Light wiping with fine 0000 steel wool and oiling? Or some of you use pineapple juice? Will post more pics of inside of cup when I can.

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## Eric Fairbanks

Magnus, the blackening on the inside of your cup and cup 3 are what give a sign of age. I would question cup 2.

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## Magnus K

Thank you for your advice, Eric. I will only photograph the inside of the cup. No polishing there.  :Wink:

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## Gene Wilkinson

> Magnus, the blackening on the inside of your cup and cup 3 are what give a sign of age. I would question cup 2.


Great point Eric,

I've often wondered about this.
I guess the cup is a moisture trap and these swords have been displayed point down for decades?

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## Gene Wilkinson

> Yes many thanks for your comments, Gene. Also many thanks for posting the related pictures. Interesting to see that the pas d’ane were sometimes attached to the sides of the cup rather than the bottom. Also reassuring that rosette washers were sometimes used on the rivets. How would burgeoning rust best be treated? Light wiping with fine 0000 steel wool and oiling? Or some of you use pineapple juice? Will post more pics of inside of cup when I can.


Hi Magnus

I've not seen rosettes quite like yours. But the symbolism isn't out of the ballpark as you can see in the second sword I show.
The placement midway down the cup is as I said not unheard of. In fact it seems ralatively common on later 'colonial' swords from what I can see.
For me the thing that seems incongrouous is the use of brass rivets to hold together steel parts.
But I also have a Spanish colonial cup hilt which has brass rivets!
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...ight=caribbean
Not really visible in this thread, but it does and one is missing!

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## Eric Fairbanks

How can you tell his are brass from these photos and I think I learned the darkened bowl trick from you Gene.

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## Magnus K

Hi Gene,

Yes I think you are right that rust tends to form in various recesses presumably because these places trap moisture? From personal experience I would add that inside of hilts might be more difficult to apply oil on and sometimes when holding the sword by the hilt one may not be aware that the knuckles rub against the cup depositing moisture from the hand. Afterwards it’s less easy to wipe down these areas. So there may be a tendency for the insides of hilts or cups to attract rust.

I can’t check at the moment whether the rivets are indeed brass. I can think of three reasons for using brass rivets: 1) using whatever material available to replace original steel rivets, 3) add some colour for decoration to the piece, 4) brass is popular for maritime use in that it doesn’t rust.

The fastening of the pas d’ane on the sides of the cup made me reconsider their purpose. I always thought of the pas d’ane as somewhere where you put your fingers for better grip when fencing. But it seems to me that it’s the quillons and the ricasso which are gripped by the hand? Then the purpose of the pas d’ane is to secure the cup/hand protection to the hilt. I never fenced so this is just a theory. Maybe some of you who fence can confirm this or explain what the real purpose of the pas d’ane on Spanish cup-hilt rapiers is?

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## Gene Wilkinson

My pardon, gentlemen. My monitor makes the rosettes and rivets look like they have a brass hue.
Are they steel?

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## Juan J. Perez

Hi,

I've fenced for a number of years whit cup-hilts (functional repros, of course), and the arms of the hilt have no other function but to hold the cup in place. In older hilts, like loop-ones, they were there to protect the fingers holding the ricasso. But no fencing function in a cup-hilt. That's the reason because many colonial, simpler hilts do not have them, holding the cup by other means.

The arms of the hilt ending short in the mid-part of the cup is not a rare condition, indeed. In tend to think that in fact they are more common in later cup-hilts. This is not the problem I see with this rapier, but the way they are distorted to accommodate a cup which has less height than the original. Maybe.

Rapiers are the trickiest swords ever for the collector, very few have all their original parts. Perhaps colonial ones are the bets in that regard, surely because they got less attention by collectors in older times. 

Best,
JJ

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## Magnus K

Many thanks for your comments, Juan. Great to hear directly from a practitioner of fencing. I plan to post more pictures of this sword as soon as I can. As a history buff I like things that have been well used and show wear accordingly. Some of these swords might have been handed down and used through generations with the occassional repair and modernization. If only they could speak, what tales we might hear...

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## Gene Wilkinson

Hi Magnus

We do need those close-ups of the inside of the cup and the areas of the quillons that Juan mentioned to make more informed comments I think?

lol, and of couse the rosettes.

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## Eric Fairbanks

Gene, Thanks for the super kool photos of the bowl high attach Pas d'An. I have never seen this variation and I thought I had seen every possible variation. The Spanish Colonial swords were reused and reused and what ever worked worked. It is possible this sword had its bowl changed and bowls usually run somewhere in the 4 to 5 range or a little over or under with many different debths. The brass rivets are rare on Spanish Colonial pieces but brass decoration is common, just not used structurally a lot. The Portuguese swords seem to make avid use of brass. Ever who bent the pas d'an to fit and attached to bowl did a fantastic job. The bowls are extremely hard to get symmetrical. The long blades certainly harder to find than cut down swords. Eric

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## Gene Wilkinson

> Hi Gene,
> 
> Yes I think you are right that rust tends to form in various recesses presumably because these places trap moisture? From personal experience I would add that inside of hilts might be more difficult to apply oil on and sometimes when holding the sword by the hilt one may not be aware that the knuckles rub against the cup depositing moisture from the hand. Afterwards it’s less easy to wipe down these areas. So there may be a tendency for the insides of hilts or cups to attract rust.
> 
> I can’t check at the moment whether the rivets are indeed brass. I can think of three reasons for using brass rivets: 1) using whatever material available to replace original steel rivets, 3) add some colour for decoration to the piece, 4) brass is popular for maritime use in that it doesn’t rust.
> 
> The fastening of the pas d’ane on the sides of the cup made me reconsider their purpose. I always thought of the pas d’ane as somewhere where you put your fingers for better grip when fencing. But it seems to me that it’s the quillons and the ricasso which are gripped by the hand? Then the purpose of the pas d’ane is to secure the cup/hand protection to the hilt. I never fenced so this is just a theory. Maybe some of you who fence can confirm this or explain what the real purpose of the pas d’ane on Spanish cup-hilt rapiers is?


Hi Magnus

Another reason for the disparity in corrosion would likely be the fact that a lot of cups not finished so well on the inside. Some can be quite rough in fact.
Not only would the less finished surface be likely to trap moisture and be more difficult to clean, it also looks worse when it has rusted.

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## Gene Wilkinson

> Gene, Thanks for the super kool photos of the bowl high attach Pas d'An. I have never seen this variation and I thought I had seen every possible variation. The Spanish Colonial swords were reused and reused and what ever worked worked. It is possible this sword had its bowl changed and bowls usually run somewhere in the 4 to 5 range or a little over or under with many different debths. The brass rivets are rare on Spanish Colonial pieces but brass decoration is common, just not used structurally a lot. The Portuguese swords seem to make avid use of brass. Ever who bent the pas d'an to fit and attached to bowl did a fantastic job. The bowls are extremely hard to get symmetrical. The long blades certainly harder to find than cut down swords. Eric



Hi Eric,
We're used to the diminishing finger-rings of the small-swords. If only the 'rules' were similar here.

Another interesting example:
https://www.gunsamerica.com/90352391...ilt-Rapier.htm

Notice the mid point connection using screws?
But no connnection where cup meets blade?

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## Gene Wilkinson

I get sidetracked Eric, 

I meant to be talking about the use of brass rivets.
The one you can't see is missing.
When I got it the brass was so patinated that you couldn't tell it was brass.

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## Magnus K

> Hi Magnus
> 
> Another reason for the disparity in corrosion would likely be the fact that a lot of cups not finished so well on the inside. Some can be quite rough in fact.
> Not only would the less finished surface be likely to trap moisture and be more difficult to clean, it also looks worse when it has rusted.


Gene,
In a way it surprises me that the inside of the cup would be rough in surface as it would be where your knuckles would probably rub. But perhaps it was cheaper to leave the unseen side like that and maybe they would wear gloves anyway?

Found this which could be of interest but deals with a century at least earlier: https://the-eye.eu/public/WorldTrack...uistadores.pdf

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## Eric Fairbanks

The rough inside is due I think to the method of fabrication as these are hammered out in an opening. You can start on a flat surface cold hammering to start curvature. Your sword another beauty Gene as yours are always restored and cleaned top notch. The other one you posted is a very unusual variation. Thanks for sharing the photos. I believe as Magnus and Juan said from holding these that the quillions are the hold. The pas d'an hold cup if present and the cup protects your little fingers from getting whacked. Perhaps I should move to England and take up fencing to get a better understanding. Eric

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## Juan J. Perez

The rough inner finish is not rare for Spanish rapiers. Not specially in cup hilts, but mostly in some double-shell ones. Curiously enough, such a rough finish is not so common in military pieces, which are in other regards simpler than civil rapiers, as expected.

I think that many civil cups and shells were covered in the inside with velvet or other materials, now long gone, being a smooth finish of iron not only unnecessary, but making it a bit more difficult for any glue to fix the velvet or fine leather. Therefore, apart from the fact of the hammering being perhaps the method of construction, a rough finish was cheaper and even recommended. 

Best,
JJ

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## Magnus K

The espada de taza shows some wear and tear with some repair on the cup. The blade is quite stiff but with a springy tip. The blade is very long at 98cm from tip to cup and 16cm from pommel to cup. It still has sharp edges to a little above where the fuller ends. The blade is marked T.... A I A L A S on one side and T O L E D O on the other. I dont think the ricasso carries a mark.

The cup has a crack on one side and a couple of repairs with light shining through a couple of tiny holes. Theres no guardopolvo. The rosettes are a nicely done and are made from steel/iron (tested with a magnet). The screws securing the rosettes are threaded.

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## Magnus K

The rompepuntas suggests this is a Spanish proper rather than a colonial sword. The espada blades by this time in the 17thC were often produced by Solingen using illustrious names of Toledo swordsmiths of old.

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## Magnus K

I’m amazed by the length of the blade, which is longer than any of my other swords with the exception of an estoc/panzerstecher.

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## Magnus K

There’s no maker’s mark on the ricasso. The rings on the wire wrapped grip may have once been gilded as they are made from steel but the one nearest to the pommel shows some yellowish stain.

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## Juan J. Perez

Hello, Magnus. 

Rapiers could be very long indeed. It is rare for a Spanish sword to be longer than yours, but Italian examples could have blades longer than 1 metre, sometimes up to 110 cm... their fencing was different to Spanish, too. 

JJ

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## Magnus K

Interesting metallographic study which seems to prove scientifically that Thomas De Ayala rapier blades of 17thC were produced in Solingen. Toledo blades fetched a higher price which may have tempted smiths to misslabel their produce.

https://www.academia.edu/858988/Meta..._rapier_blades

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## Juan J. Perez

Hello to the forum,

The author of this article happens to be a good friend of mine, and we could discuss his research at the time of publishing the article. As for me (and at some extent, for him) the most astonishing discovery was the way that Solingen makers produced sword blades to get the properties that anyone expects in a good sword: resilience, toughness and flexibility. Both Toledo and Solingen makers' approaches were based in 'sandwich' structures, alternating layers of steel and iron (or very mild steel). But while Toledo makers used an iron core embraced by two layers of steel touching at the edge, extending for the whole blade length (apart from the tang, of course), in Solingen a steel core was covered by two layers of iron, but only in the forte of the blade, leaving the steel exposed for the rest of the blade, up to the point. 

We have to admit that the results were at least comparable, because both blademaking centres had a good enough reputation at the time (17th century, up to early 18th), being perhaps the only limitation for the Solingen method the impossibility of getting a decent edge in the forte. But for a rapier blade (and for most sword blades, in the end) this is not a real concern. The Solingen approach seems to save in steel, the iron being cheaper and used in the heaviest part of the blade. That would give Solingen a competitive advantage over Toledo, which along with internal factors put Toledo products out of the European market in the 18th century.

It has to be said that later,  in mid-19th century, narrow blades were made in Toledo of solid steel, but the intended use of such swords was not as demanding as it was before, while steels were much more predictable in nature.

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