# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Middle-East, India & Africa (MEIA) >  need for information concerning a persian (?) shamshir‏

## Largerie JM.

Hello,

I'm writting to you because i'd like to have information concerning a shamshir my granfather bequeathed to me. My granmother gave it to me but i don't know many things about its story, except that it was bought during the 1960's in Iran. Could you please help me because it's not easy to make inquiries when you're a novice... 

with kind regards,

Jean-Marc L.

----------


## A. Alnakas

Yep, this is a persian shamshir blade on an arabic style hilt. a very high quality one. The blade could be late 18th century or early 19th but i'll leave that to more experienced members.

PS: This is one of the most beautiful Shamshirs i have ever seen. Its a treasure  :Smilie:

----------


## Largerie JM.

> Yep, this is a persian shamshir blade on an arabic style hilt. a very high quality one. The blade could be late 18th century or early 19th but i'll leave that to more experienced members.
> 
> PS: This is one of the most beautiful Shamshirs i have ever seen. Its a treasure


thank you...
 Here are more photos if you want...

----------


## A. Alnakas

Yep, it is as i said. The blade is a good quality wootz  :Smilie:  really interesting item.

----------


## Largerie JM.

> Yep, it is as i said. The blade is a good quality wootz  really interesting item.


hello,

 I come to you with some additional questions.
 hilt of Arab inspiration, a woodz with this curve (perhaps Persian) and scarrab "country" with rabbits, birds and flowers. Is this common for this type of Shamshir ? and finally can someone translate these 2 entries ?

 Thank you in advance for your answers to my many questions.

----------


## A. Alnakas

The depiction of hunting scenes on scabbards and crossguards is common among persian items. Cant read the inscription but think Rahil or Manochehr will read this easily.

----------


## Largerie JM.

> Hello,
> 
> I'm writting to you because i'd like to have information concerning a shamshir my granfather bequeathed to me. My granmother gave it to me but i don't know many things about its story, except that it was bought during the 1960's in Iran. Could you please help me because it's not easy to make inquiries when you're a novice... 
> 
> with kind regards,
> 
> Jean-Marc L.


Traduction (français > anglais)
Hello everyone,

 After reflection, I asked my grandmother if she was sure they had bought this Shamshir in Iran.
 She told me that maybe not.
I searched the archives of the forum, and now I rather think it comes from Syria
(the hilt, the Curve & the Woodz .....)
 They also have lived 6 years in Lebanon and Syria. Perhaps this great item comes from there.

 What do you think?

 Kind regards

 Jean-Marc

----------


## Emanuel Nicolescu

Bonsoir Jean-Marc,

Very beautiful shamshir indeed. I agree that the dress is Arab, it makes sense that your grandmother might have acquired it in Syria. The blade is of high quality and is appears older than the scabbard and hilt. While high quality, many sword fittings are still being made in both Damascus Syria and Ryad Saudi Arabia, so they might be much newer then the blade.  I cannot help with the tanslation.

Still a very nice piece. Mes feliciations, j'en suis jalous. 

Emanuel

----------


## Largerie JM.

> Bonsoir Jean-Marc,
> 
> Very beautiful shamshir indeed. I agree that the dress is Arab, it makes sense that your grandmother might have acquired it in Syria. The blade is of high quality and is appears older than the scabbard and hilt. While high quality, many sword fittings are still being made in both Damascus Syria and Ryad Saudi Arabia, so they might be much newer then the blade.  I cannot help with the tanslation.
> 
> Still a very nice piece. Mes feliciations, j'en suis jalous. 
> 
> Emanuel


Hi.
Shame on me ! :Smilie: 
writing with a translator...
Promised that this one is done without google help.

You said that maybe this sword combines an old blade and an more recent hilt.In which case they could do this kind of work. (gifts, decorative items). the tip of the scarrab makes me think that it have purely decorative role. 

thanks for your french salutation......

With kind regards.

Jean-Marc

----------


## Rahil A.

Hi,

This is a Persian sword.
The blade curvature, the Crucible steel (Poulade Gohardar پولاد گوهردار) Or so-called wootz is typical of persian blades that here is visible
Also, scabbard with velvet cover is common (we have many similar ones in Iran museums and also many are depicted in miniatures with red,velvet covered scabbards) and scabbard fittings are also lenselike with prayer phrases.floral designs and hunting scenes...
...

And more importantly the inscriptions on the blade:
The first upper cartouche reads: بنده شاه ولایت عباس
meaning: The representative of the king of the country Abbas
and the second (lower):
عمل اسد الله
meaning: Work of Asadollah (Which is the name of the maker)

Based on the inscriptions it may belong to the Safavid king, Shah Abbas شاه عباس....truely a treasure...

Regards
Rahil

----------


## Rahil A.

Regarding the two lenselike scabbard chapes, They have arabic inscriptions of a famous Shia prayer that was used in battle fields by Persians. it was believed that this text could protect the worriors...the first one (right) that comes after the hunting scene, is the first phrase of Nade Ali Prayer:نادِ عَلیاً مَظهَرَالعَجائِب  Meaning: Call Ali, who is Manifestor of wonders

And the second script (left) comes from Nade Ali as well:  کُلَّ هَمٍ وَغَمًّ سَیَنجَلی
meaning: All grief and Sorrows will disappear

Regards
Rahil

----------


## Largerie JM.

Hi,



 I begin to build a story for this beautiful Shamshir. thanks for your comments and knowledge, I understand a little more this sword. However, while I appreciate the esthetic and technical quality of this weapon, the Historic remains a bit complicated for a novice like me.

 So a big thank you to everyone and especially to Rahid for the translation

 I send you more photos ....

 kind regards.

 Jmarc

 PS: I would appreciate Dr Manouchehr makes a comment about this persian Shamshir

 PS2: I think my Grandma has left other memories to my brother. Maybe I would again appeal to you.

----------


## Largerie JM.

....

----------


## A. Alnakas

this is a very good wootz activity, you are lucky my friend  :Smilie:

----------


## Largerie JM.

Hi, 

do you think it could be the same signature and quality wootz as those illustrated in the article of Mr STEPHEN V. GRANCSAY (MET's May 1958 newsletter) ?  

http://www.metmuseum.org/publication...f.bannered.pdf

JMarc

"I hope the link works"

----------


## Largerie JM.

sorry but, I never tire of watching this blade.

 more photos (the last ..) this time to daylight without retouch.

----------


## Emanuel Nicolescu

Sweet! nice activity, you can get lost gazing into all the twists and turns. Imagine the modern aesthetic applications of this material on everyday objects. A thought for the metallurgists, but I wonder about large-scale foundry processes for making large and thin steel sheets with wootz surface properties. 

Emanuel

----------


## Largerie JM.

> Sweet! nice activity, you can get lost gazing into all the twists and turns. Imagine the modern aesthetic applications of this material on everyday objects. A thought for the metallurgists, but I wonder about large-scale foundry processes for making large and thin steel sheets with wootz surface properties. 
> 
> Emanuel


hi Emanuel,

 I think (but it's just an amateur reflexion :Smilie: ) that what makes the beauty of a wootz blade is well on its technical and aesthetic quality but also and especially in the scarceness and in the performance to achieve a result like this one.

 When i try to imagine the time and the work involved in creating a Shamshir with wootz (wood pattern ?), I do not see any other application that art or craft of art.

 I think for the bladesmith that manufactures an item like this one is both proud because the object is beautiful, aesthetic, with the technical qualities he sought, but mainly because it is unique, and his own creation. but maybe I'm wrong

Do we have any idea of how long to make a blade like this one?

And since we are talking about them, I am attaching a document written by an  Syrian art historian who talks about _Assad Allah al-Isfahani_. He thinks his real name was _Ali Akbar_ and that he borrowed the name of Allah Assad to a famous craftman of Damascus: _al-Assad Allah Dimasql_. 
Did you this information? Is that true?


 This information comes from a serious scientific journal references :
 (French text)

Afif Bahnassi: Making swords of Damascus, in: Syria. Volume 53, Issue 3-4, 1976. pp. 281-294, p. 287. 

http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home..._num_53_3_6557

thank you for the time spent reading this message.

JM

----------


## Emanuel Nicolescu

Hello Jean-Marc,

Thank you for the link, a very well written article and I'll be sure to add it to my library. 
To be clear, we must differentiate between wootz and "damascus steel". The pattern in Indian wootz is chemical, it is the grain structure of the steel crystal. The pattern in damascus steel is mechanical, the result of forge-welding bars of steel with different carbon contents, folding and twisting them to achieve the pattern. 

Both of these steel types can be used to make other objects, but in the case of mechanical damascus, the pattern can be distorted as the metal is rolled and thinned out. Since the pattern in wootz is the chemical structure of the steel itself, I was thinking that it may be formed in large thin sheets without major distortion. 

Anyway, these are just the reflections of an amateur as you say  :Smilie:  I agree that these are beautiful works of art.

All the best,
Emanuel

----------

