# Communities > Modern-era Swords and Collecting Community > Modern Production Katanas >  Peace Sword Nakago Photo

## Keith Larman

Someone had asked me about the shaping/style of the nakago on Bugei's Peace sword that I designed for them. I forgot who asked me about it, I can't find the e-mail where they asked me, so I hope they're paying attention here because I think they were from here. Anyway, since I can't find the guy's info (and I'm blanking on his name), I decided to post this here. And I figure it might create more conversation anyway...

I'm redoing a tsuka for a Bugei customer for their Peace Sword. Someone asked me about their nakago. So... Since I've remove the tsuka to reshape it a bit and rewrap it per the customer's preferences, I got my daughter and her visiting friend to hold it for me for a quick shot.



This particular model is the 30" peace sword with a 14" tsuka. The nakago is just a hair over 12" long with a very slight bit of sori in the nakago (and I must say their tsuka core was well shaped -- I did a lot less than usual to make it a bit more to my liking while I had it unwrapped).

So... For discussion...

Notice the nakago is very long. Why? Because so many customers in the US are convinced it needs to have a "full tang" that if we don't do that people won't buy them. Drives me nuts because it ends up being one of those compromises that has to be made if you want to actually sell swords. But the craftsman side of my brain just wants to scream in frustration. Properly done it doesn't have to be that long. But... So many companies make such crappy tsuka that people have decided the swords "need" a full tang to be safe. No, what would make them safe is if the companies would simply quit hammering poorly carved tsuka onto the nakago in the first place. To me it is like trying to address a car with bad brakes by putting in better airbags. No, fix the freaking breaks first. 

So... In order for these swords to be considered "safe" by some out there the nakago needs to run most of the length of the tsuka. If they kept the nakago at the same "beefiness" as traditional nakago it would throw the balance off completely (which is what happens with a lot of production swords I've seen -- the nakago are long *and* too beefy making the blades handle like a crow bar). So Paul has his smiths taper them increasingly more making them look more "svelte" that traditional. This is a good thing in this case because it keeps the balance from getting pulled back into the hands too far. So, to sum it up, some customers insist on "full tang" because that's what crappy swords need. To do full tang means the nakago has to be shaped differently to prevent the balance from being thrown off. So voila, this is what you get. To me it is a compromise that works just fine. But like I said part of my brain just gets annoyed that extra work is being done to safely and functionally accommodate what is in fact a misconception. Or maybe more accurately things are being done to address a problem that doesn't exist in this particular case. Yes, if the tsuka were poorly fit and poorly made then a shorter nakago would be a problem. But they're are well fit and decently made. So we *could* have a "normal" tsuka. But... Some customers will pass because someone says "Oh, no, it doesn't have a full tang design -- that's not safe". 

Okay, yeah, I'm venting a bit. It's one of those things that just drives me nuts about the production sword world. 

Okay, more observations... The nakago has a slight sori to it. It is fairly straightforward to build a tsuka for a nakago like this. One thing is that since they had to extend the nakago out to satisfy a small group of uniformed people it means that there is more "wiggle room" for fittings placement. It also means it is easier to curve and taper the tsuka (this one "out of the box" was actually really nicely shaped). Notice the nakago comes out at a bit of an angle already curving in the correct direction. Add that little bit of extra curvature along the mune of the nakago along with the less tall nakago (back to edge) and the person making the tsuka can build a nicely shaped tsuka with confidence. So it is a good design "all things being equal". 

I just wish people would stop insisting on "full tangs" and instead start insisting that companies' who make swords do the handles correctly so they don't need a "full tang" (which was never traditional to begin with). 

Anyway, I figured it would be something people could possibly talk about since I'm right in the middle of doing about 4 tsuka right now. And I also forgot to send the image to someone who asked and I feel guilty because for the life of me I can't find the guy's e-mail. So if you're reading, does this answer your question? Or does anyone else have any questions?

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## Keith Larman

Oh, the masking tape is to keep the blade from sliding into the saya further while the tsuka is off. Just noticed it in the photo and thought I should explain that.

And the girl with the braided hair and smirk on the left is my daughter. Her good friend on the right (they often get mistaken as being sisters).

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## Keith Larman

oh, crud, and one more thing... The nakago on the 28/12 Peace swords is about 10" long. And Bugei is considering adding different handle lengths upon request. So if you are interested, contact them and let them know what you're looking for. I tried to talk them into a 28/11 configuration when we first started, but they wanted to focus on a limited number of configurations hoping the factory could keep up with demand. Didn't work anyway, so go ahead and bug them if there's something you want.  :Wink:   Please, prove me right on that one.  :Wink:

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## Jamie D

28/11 is about perfect.  I favor shorter tsuka than longer.  14 feels to long for me.  
So you're right.  

I'm too busy buying old stuff right now to order one- but they are very nice.  
I cut with a Bugei wave not to long ago, and was very impressed.  Very nice sword.

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## Tsugio Kawakami

> Notice the nakago is very long. Why? Because so many customers in the US are convinced it needs to have a "full tang" that if we don't do that people won't buy them. Drives me nuts because it ends up being one of those compromises that has to be made if you want to actually sell swords. But the craftsman side of my brain just wants to scream in frustration. Properly done it doesn't have to be that long. But... So many companies make such crappy tsuka that people have decided the swords "need" a full tang to be safe. No, what would make them safe is if the companies would simply quit hammering poorly carved tsuka onto the nakago in the first place. To me it is like trying to address a car with bad brakes by putting in better airbags. No, fix the freaking breaks first. 
> 
> So... In order for these swords to be considered "safe" by some out there the nakago needs to run most of the length of the tsuka. If they kept the nakago at the same "beefiness" as traditional nakago it would throw the balance off completely (which is what happens with a lot of production swords I've seen -- the nakago are long *and* too beefy making the blades handle like a crow bar). So Paul has his smiths taper them increasingly more making them look more "svelte" that traditional. This is a good thing in this case because it keeps the balance from getting pulled back into the hands too far. So, to sum it up, some customers insist on "full tang" because that's what crappy swords need. To do full tang means the nakago has to be shaped differently to prevent the balance from being thrown off. So voila, this is what you get. To me it is a compromise that works just fine. But like I said part of my brain just gets annoyed that extra work is being done to safely and functionally accommodate what is in fact a misconception. Or maybe more accurately things are being done to address a problem that doesn't exist in this particular case. Yes, if the tsuka were poorly fit and poorly made then a shorter nakago would be a problem. But they're are well fit and decently made. So we *could* have a "normal" tsuka. But... Some customers will pass because someone says "Oh, no, it doesn't have a full tang design -- that's not safe". 
> 
> Okay, yeah, I'm venting a bit. It's one of those things that just drives me nuts about the production sword world. 
> 
> I just wish people would stop insisting on "full tangs" and instead start insisting that companies' who make swords do the handles correctly so they don't need a "full tang" (which was never traditional to begin with).


THIS! My god, can I quote you on that, Keith?

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## Keith Larman

> THIS! My god, can I quote you on that, Keith?


Sure, no problem. Thanks for asking (most don't ask and then incorrectly paraphrase me anyway).

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## Keith Larman

> THIS! My god, can I quote you on that, Keith?


But do me a favor and correct all my misspellings and grammatical errors...  :Wink:  Just reread it. Wow. Typing too fast.

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## Tsugio Kawakami

Haha. No problem, I prefer asking instead of just using.

As for spelling and grammar...yours is probably better than mine, but I'll try.  :Wink:  Thanks again.

By the way, that's a fantastic sword overall. I certainly do prefer a shorter tsuka, but I have to admit that a long blade with a long tsuka looks impressive.

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## G.T. Wungnema

Excuse me for saying so, but that thing looks like it needs about three inches chopped off!

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## Jason Anstey

Nice post Keith.

I appreciate reading your thoughts and frustrations on the long tsuka and nakago. I have always considered a tang that is roughly 65 -70% of the handle length to be a 'full tang' (assuming the shape is correct).

It's mainly the rats-tail that I consider to be non-full-tang.

Cheers

Jason

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## Rubem Bastos

> I tried to talk them into a 28/11 configuration when we first started


A version without bo-hi would be nice too, IMO. What you guys think?

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## Ken King

> A version without bo-hi would be nice too, IMO. What you guys think?


I seem to remember reading somewhere that they were thinking about offering it without the bo-hi sometime in the future.

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## Keith Larman

Honestly I don't know if that is going to happen. The idea behind some of the newer designs for Bugei was to try to stick to creating new designs based on actual dimensions and characteristics of swords that were highly regarded and used back when they were in use. So the Peace Sword blade itself was based on a sword by the Tadayoshi school. Remember that sometimes a groove was used on a blade as part of the overall design. Meaning that we could go with a slightly thicker, taller blade (good for cutting) but keep the weight and balance more prioritized to the person doing kata as well. The original was made with the grooves being done by the smith intentionally to get the balance he wanted given the other dimensions of the sword. 

But that said there are two things also going on. One is we do get feedback from customers and one reason for me posting this at all is to hear what people think of it. So far it has been very well received but I'm always open to suggestions. Another factor is the new steel/heat treatment that Hanwei developed and James Williams has been involved with in terms of blade testing. We are planning on rolling that new steel out in a couple existing lines once we determine Hanwei is able to deliver it reliably. I've designed some changes to the hamon for each of the swords where we might use this steel. Depending on how all this plays out it might find its way into something like the peace sword. And since the hamon will be so different and the steel different in look as well, I might design a similiar blade shape but adjust a few things to keep the same feel while going without the grooves. 

But this is all way down the road. And it all depends on how things go with the existing line, new swords, new designs, etc. As most can imagine the sword market is very soft right now, so it is hard to make a case to spend on doing a whole new sword line. So... We're just seeing how things are going.

And I should clarify one thing (I got an e-mail that made me realize someone might have misunderstood something I was saying). I really have no problem with the way hanwei does the nakago in a functional context. With this piece they did a nice job of slightly curving the nakago but extending it to satisfy those who want steel running most of the way inside the tsuka. To me it is one of those "how did we end up doing this" kinda deals. And you will still find people insisting absolutely on having the nakago extend all the way in the tsuka. Even if the tsuka is properly made, fit and tight. The reality is that I've done a *lot* of swords that had "normal" length nakago that didn't extend the entire length that have survived hard, frequent use for years. And now that Hanwei has gotten really quite good at fittings tsuka, at least on Bugei's swords (since that's really the bulk of my experience), it strikes me as odd that people still ask about it and insist on it. In the end it isn't a problem as their way works just fine. It just looks odd to my eye to see it but I can work with it. I just find it a bit sad that some things have to be done due to both the misconceptions of the buying public and the stupid advertising done by makers who don't know what the heck they're doing in the first place. It reminds me of the "3 mekugi" swords, cryo treatment, and all that associated BS that thankfully didn't "stick". It's all marketing. All sizzle and no steak.

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## Loke Emil

> Someone had asked me about the shaping/style of the nakago on Bugei's Peace sword that I designed for them. I forgot who asked me about it, I can't find the e-mail where they asked me, so I hope they're paying attention here because I think they were from here. Anyway, since I can't find the guy's info (and I'm blanking on his name), I decided to post this here. And I figure it might create more conversation anyway...
> 
> And I also forgot to send the image to someone who asked and I feel guilty because for the life of me I can't find the guy's e-mail. So if you're reading, does this answer your question?


Hi Keith...

I totally accept your choise to go for a public reply and a possible discussion of my question concerning the nakagao on the peace katana. ;-) 

However, to dismantle any misunderstandings I wanted you to explain wether this katana displays a traditional nagako, i.e corresponding with the blades sugata typical of tadayoshi's style or if it displays, as is the case, some odd compromise? To answer your question: Yes, your describtion answers my question, to the point of disappointment, sadly enough, though. ;-)

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## Keith Larman

Loke: 

Glad you found the post. Sorry about blanking on your name. 

The nakago on the 28/12 configuration is a lot more "conventional" and the nakago on one I reworked was about 10" in length. 

The nakago on the hanwei production swords are better than most production swords. But they aren't shinsakuto either. 

I'll also point out that I've mounted swords by custom smiths that had very nice looking nakago. Nice filework, pretty signatures, etc. But some of these guys probably don't do much mounting work. The tapers were often wrong and on some the mei itself would interfere with sliding on the habaki -- i.e., they didn't taper enough at the right point to allow habaki to pass over the slightly raised edges created by the mei. So you're left with a choice of a slightly looser habaki or filing down the signature. Neither is a good choice. 

Anyway, glad you looked at the thread.

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## Keith Larman

An observation... 

If we went with a fully traditional nakago on the sword matching the original sword exactly we'd have some not buying the sword because the nakago wasn't long enough according to their sensei given the length of the tsuka. If we go with the compromise that Hanwei has to deal with the very same issue someone else (in this case Loke). Tis the nature of these things -- you can't win them all. And when we're talking about a full sword, polished and mounted for dramatically less than an entry level shinsakuto unfinished... Well, there you go. Gotta make some compromises to keep costs down. And some compromises are made simply because of what the public demands -- in this case a nakago that runs most of the length of the tsuka.

Heck, the original magazine this very site was based on had an article that was incredibly critical of the early shinto model because the nakago was too short. Yeah, it was kinda short, but I've seen antiques with shorter ones. However, given the knowledge level at the time and the quality of the first generation tsuka cores they had to go to "full tangs" to satisfy those doing reviews. 

The irony is obvious...

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## Scott Turchin

And I thought the Thaitsuki was long at 9"!!!

I was tempted to lop some of my own off, but mine does have the two holes for Mekugi, which for me is OK..

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## Aaron Justice

Recently I had someone ask me to do a custom blade for him (not me...). He wanted a 31 inch katana I have now, but he wanted me to cut the nagasa down to 28 inches so that it would have an 11 inch nakago, and then carve a 12 inch tsuka for it. I told him that was unnecessary, and that I could just order him a 28 inch katana and do the same tsuka for it. He insisted if he cut with it, he would come away with a hand full of broken tsuka. I asked him if he had any idea the tensile strength of 3 inches of poplar wood, especially when wrapped with stingray skin, and silk. The client then cancelled his order since apparently I didn't know what I was talking about.

Gotta love people sometimes.

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## Tsugio Kawakami

> Recently I had someone ask me to do a custom blade for me. He wanted a 31 inch katana I have now, but he wanted me to cut the nagasa down to 28 inches so that it would have an 11 inch nakago, and then carve a 12 inch tsuka for it. I told him that was unnecessary, and that I could just order him a 28 inch katana and do the same tsuka for it. He insisted if he cut with it, he would come away with a hand full of broken tsuka. I asked him if he had any idea the tensile strength of 3 inches of poplar wood, especially when wrapped with stingray skin, and silk. The client then cancelled his order since apparently I didn't know what I was talking about.
> 
> Gotta love people sometimes.


What? Don't you know how weak wood is, Aaron? It's not like they make trees out of it, you know.


...No, wait...

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## Aaron Justice

> Heck, the original magazine this very site was based on had an article that was incredibly critical of the early shinto model because the nakago was too short. Yeah, it was kinda short, but I've seen antiques with shorter ones. However, given the knowledge level at the time and the quality of the first generation tsuka cores they had to go to "full tangs" to satisfy those doing reviews.


There is also a tutorial on shortening the tsuka of a Paul Chen Golden Oriole katana with a 14.25 inch tsuka. That article itself may have given legitimacy to the idea a nakago has to be almost the full length of the tsuka.

My 28.25 inch nihonto would look kind of silly with a 7.5 inch tsuka.

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## Keith Larman

> There is also a tutorial on shortening the tsuka of a Paul Chen Golden Oriole katana with a 14.25 inch tsuka. That article itself may have given legitimacy to the idea a nakago has to be almost the full length of the tsuka.
> 
> My 28.25 inch nihonto would look kind of silly with a 7.5 inch tsuka.


True. However I would also say that as the tsuka gets longer (like a rock-star 14" long tsuka) it is a good idea to have one longer than 7.5... But at some point it all gets silly. If the nakago extends significantly more than half or better yet about 2/3, well, you're going to have to start whacking the sword against an anvil (or trees) holding it predominantly with the back hand to do any damage. And that's really just sword abuse at that point.

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## Aaron Justice

> What? Don't you know how weak wood is, Aaron? It's not like they make trees out of it, you know.
> 
> 
> ...No, wait...


Especially poplar. I did a tsuka in basswood, and after the full rayskin wrap it still felt hard enough to use like a club. Poplar is much, much tougher than basswood.

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## Keith Larman

When we did the L6 destruction video at Howard Clark's place, the nakago went just past half way into the tsuka. It was a short katana/long wakizashi but we put an 11" tsuka on it. 

After a massive amount of test cutting the blade was whacked against a iron work bench repeatedly (not on film). Later on it was slammed repeatedly against copper pipe and then an anvil. Eventually the tsuka failed but *not* initially at the point where the nakago ended. It started when the habaki began to shear apart at the mune. The strikes were so hard that even the ana on the tsuba was deformed significantly -- that's how much the blade was flexing from edge to back and back to edge. After a few more strikes the habaki sheared out completely allowing the blade to flex inside the tsuka (the habaki will tend to hold the blade in place by the large surface area of the habaki in contact with first the seppa and then the tsuba -- remember the flexing was so great it was deforming an iron tsuba). Finally with the habaki broken the flexing blade began to rip through the mune of the tsuka at the entry point. Then after all of that and a few more powerful strikes on an anvil by a guy who swings a heavy hammer day and after day the blade could finally move enough inside the tsuka to cause the alder core with full wrap same to fracture. 

This was all top notch custom work of course. 

I'll also point out that for a long time martial artists in the US were using about the only thing they had -- WWII swords. If you think about it many were using tsuka made in the 1940's all the way up into the 70's and 80's. The wood had degraded so much that they tended to fail at the end of the nakago. No surprise there, metal won't weaken significantly over a time frame like that. But glues, woods, and fiber products will. And that is *way* too long to be using something like that. Also, lots of the crappy swords made overseas (Pakistan, etc.) from way back where absolutely atrocious. No surprise those failed too. 

Today I hope we'd be more educated. But this one thing still persists. Full tang.

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## Frank B

Love these threads, I learn a lot.

I always wondered why the tang on my Bugei Samurai was so damn long but also skinny when compared to Japanese made katanas. Makes sense now.

BTW this is the tang on my Bugei Samurai:



That reminds me I wanted to ask everyone's opinion on something...

I was recently corresponding via e-mail with someone at a well known sword manufacturer about a custom katana order. I wanted to know if I could have the option for a full same wrap on my tsuka and was told that full same wraps are not common anymore and that same panel inserts are stronger than full same wraps because a full same wrap needs to have more wood removed than panel inserts need so the tsuka isn't too "fat" and that now with modern glue you don't need a full same wrap on a properly made tsuka.

What's all your opinion on that statement?

This thread contradicts much of what I have researched on the internet about a sword with a "full tang" but makes total sense. This e-mail contradicted what I have researched on the internet about full same wraps but makes total sense to me. All my research has led me to believe a katana with a full same wrap and full tang is indestructible  :Wink:

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## Aaron Justice

> Love these threads, I learn a lot.
> 
> I always wondered why the tang on my Bugei Samurai was so damn long but also skinny when compared to Japanese made katanas. Makes sense now.
> 
> That reminds me I wanted to ask everyone's opinion on something...
> 
> I was recently corresponding via e-mail with someone at a well known sword manufacturer about a custom katana order. I wanted to know if I could have the option for a full same wrap on my tsuka and was told that full same wraps are not common anymore and that same panel inserts are stronger than full same wraps because a full same wrap needs to have more wood removed than panel inserts need so the tsuka isn't too "fat" and that now with modern glue you don't need a full same wrap on a properly made tsuka.
> 
> What's all your opinion on that statement?
> ...



The reason most katana don't have full wraps is a materials/cost reason really. Stingray skin is one of the more expensive of the organic materials used in a katana, and panels are simply easier to do cost wise.

Not every tsuka needs a full rayskin wrap. On the one hand, you're removing wood from the tsuka, possibly making the wood too thin. However, the other way is a full wrap which does bind the tsuka together and therefore keeping the seams of the tsuka together. I always do a full wrap on new tsuka I carve. Tomorrow I am doing one without a full wrap because it's a less expensive sword and I'm low on materials, saving the full hides for more expensive blades.

There's no real right or wrong, it just depends on the size of the fuchi and kashira, width of the nakago, etc. I'm sure Keith will have a much better answer.

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## Tsugio Kawakami

Along with the aforementioned material cost, I imagine the structural integrity part being a valid concern with modern made, semi-mass-produced tsuka. If done incorrectly, the samegawa won't do diddly-squat as a full wrap. You would then have a thinner piece of wood under a faulty wrap.

It would take considerably more time and skill to make all of these tsuka with well done full wraps.

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## Frank B

Yeah I knew it was a materials/cost thing but I was willing to pay extra for a full same wrap, this was a $1500+ semi-custom katana and the person was really talking me out of it saying a full same wrap would actually be weaker than a panel insert again due to more wood+better modern glue.

First time I have heard anyone say this and wanted opinions 'cause I thought this might turn out to be another "full tang = strongest sword IN THE WORLD" myth as well. I always believed a full tang was better at first until I saw real nihontos and this thread.

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## Keith Larman

> Yeah I knew it was a materials/cost thing but I was willing to pay extra for a full same wrap, this was a $1500+ semi-custom katana and the person was really talking me out of it saying a full same wrap would actually be weaker than a panel insert again due to more wood+better modern glue.
> 
> First time I have heard anyone say this and wanted opinions 'cause I thought this might turn out to be another "full tang = strongest sword IN THE WORLD" myth as well. I always believed a full tang was better at first until I saw real nihontos and this thread.


Had a busy weekend and have to run out again soon. So this'll be brief...

Most tsuka fail along the mune. Not at the glue joint but at an angle that lines up with the sides of the mune of the nakago. So think "\ /" looking crack as you look at the face of the tsuka, edge down. The wood does *not* crack at the glue joint. So glue has nothing to do with it. It also starts under the fuchi where the wood is the thickest *and* where there is no samekawa whether it is full or panel wrapped. 

In many antiques and modern tsuka I've taken apart after failure when they do fail in this way *if* they have a properly done (notice properly) full wrap samekawa the cracks will usually be stopped dead at the point where the full wrap begins. Which makes sense as the full wrap is "squeezing" in and supporting the grain of the wood which runs the length of the tsuka (which is why it cracks more easily in that way). Most argue that a full wrap prevents the tsuka from snapping at the end of the nakago hence the longer nakago or using full wrap. The reality is that full wraps about reinforcing both the glue joint (old glues were terrible compared to modern ones) but *also* the grain of the wood through which cracks will propagate back.

The full wrap, if done correctly, can also make the tsuka core fit a bit tighter as the finding when the skin is expanded (soaked) the skin locks in place with the pressure of the complete binding. So when the glue dries the tsuka will be harder to slide on and off of the nakago if done correctly. Add a proper tsukamaki and it will be even tighter. 

All that said there is a lot of discussion about this stuff. Remember that there are also different opinions based on why things are being done. Many antiques are restored never to be used. With those a full wrap is truly irrelevant except if the person simply wants to do one.

Now all this said, an improperly done full wrap samekawa can be weaker than a properly done panel job. The "real" question is always one of quality of work first and foremost. Frankly panels work just fine under most circumstances. I do full wraps because I can and I prefer to work at that level. There are perfectly valid reasons for doing it differently. But most of my customers are also martial artists who want the highest level of performance and stability. So that's what I do.

But... if we assume proper quality work of both ways of doing it, then the differences need to be kept in perspective. Let's say you're comparing two motorcycles. Let's say one has a 15 MPH higher top speed. Wow. Gotta go with that one. But let's also say it costs twice as much as the other one. Hmmm... Now let's also assume that the top speed of the "slower" motorcycle is 140 MPH. How much difference is that extra 15 MPH worth? Is it relevant? 

Yes, we can objectively say one is faster than the other. But if all you do is cruise around town, well, you're simply never going to do anything that will make the difference relevant.

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## David W Price

> ... this was a $1500+ semi-custom katana and the person was really talking me out of it saying a full same wrap would actually be weaker than a panel insert again due to more wood+better modern glue...


As others have said, this may be due to the size of the nakago versus the fuchi. A lot of modern katana, both custom made and production, have large nakago due to the "performance" blade profiles that are popular today for tameshigiri. Trying to use antique fittings or new ones based on older sets may not leave enough wood for a full wrap. Some of the nakago are so deep that it is hard to mount them without having custom fittings made.

Dave P

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## Greg Mukai

Sent a pm with link on Nakago topic, wanted you to decide on relevance.

Greg

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## Keith Larman

> As others have said, this may be due to the size of the nakago versus the fuchi. A lot of modern katana, both custom made and production, have large nakago due to the "performance" blade profiles that are popular today for tameshigiri. Trying to use antique fittings or new ones based on older sets may not leave enough wood for a full wrap. Some of the nakago are so deep that it is hard to mount them without having custom fittings made.
> 
> Dave P


Yeah, except at that point I'd be arguing that maybe you need larger fittings rather than trying to squeeze a big sword into a small tsuka...

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## Keith Larman

> Sent a pm with link on Nakago topic, wanted you to decide on relevance.
> 
> Greg


Just looked at it now. Mods, if it is a problem delete the link.

On Aoi Art:  http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/sale/10209.html

That is a very old, very nice kodachi. Rather short nakago. The question would be how it would have been mounted, however. Interesting (and good) to look at regardless.

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## Greg Mukai

I am not well versed in Japanese sword techniques and applications. Is there a connection between Nakago length and sword techniques popular at certain times in Japanese history?

Greg

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## David W Price

> Yeah, except at that point I'd be arguing that maybe you need larger fittings rather than trying to squeeze a big sword into a small tsuka...


Agreed

Dave P

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## Keith Larman

> I am not well versed in Japanese sword techniques and applications. Is there a connection between Nakago length and sword techniques popular at certain times in Japanese history?
> 
> Greg


That is not a strong area for me. Don't really know but I will say I'm inclined to say no. Today people tend to focus at least initially on time periods in sword design. The reality is that as you dig deeper you also see regional variations in all sorts of things including mounts which themselves tended to follow along with regional differences in styles. So there is a bit of a "chicken or the egg" issue here as well, but there really are quite a few variables involved. Time periods. Sword evolution. Battle changes. Regional styles. And so on. 

But honestly, grain of salt time. This is not my strength.

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## Frank B

> _reply_


Thank you Keith and everyone else for your input, that helps a lot. I just found it odd when I asked about a full same wrap and was steered away from it, I never heard anyone recommend panels over full.

BTW that Peace sword is a damn fine piece of art and am really giving it some consideration for my next sword.  :Smilie:

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## Jamie D

Frank, 
I agree a full wrap would be the way to go if there is a lot of use in the swords future.  Because historically it was used to bind or strengthen the tsuka, as you pointed out.  If light use, or no use though-Panels may be OK, unless you just wanted full a full wrap.  Anything I was going to use- I'd get full wrap.  A Manufacturer or someone trying to sell something will say almost anything to sell that product.  Whether it's true or not- In most cases.  


I recently damaged a "tactical" tanto made by hanwei.  I was using it to remove the little Branches on a stalk of Bamboo and the Tsuka split- even the full wrap didn't help- but this blade had no Kashira- so- 
Piece of ****.  Tactical- Yeah right.

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## Oniryuu Shinigami

I got a question about your Peace Katana.  I have been looking all over the internet for a good first katana.  After days and weeks of just looking at different makers and learning about katanas and how they are made.  I found that your Peace Katana is by far the coolest looking Katana I have ever seen.  I know you got what I'm looking for in terms of looks but what about the blade.  I saw a video where you said your blades on the peace katana are production forged and very sharp.  How good at cutting is the peace katana's blade?  I was wondering if by request you would put a Forged Folded blade on a peace katana and how much would that cost?  Also what if I bought a Tamahagane blade or L6 blade that would fit it, if you would dress it up like the peace katana and how much it would cost me for the peace katana with a blade I gave you? I only ask because I want a full battle ready katana that could can with stand the test of time and still be sharp I also ask because when It comes to katanas I want one with a very strong and good blade because I want to buy only one high end katana to last me for the rest of my life.  The blade is the most important part to me followed by looks.  

The only other katana I'm looking at is this one because Its a tamahagane blade and I know its been beat to death but the dragon style fittings.  (I like the dragon, grim reaper, death, or battle scene styles the most.) 
http://www.budo-aoi.com/index.php?ma...roducts_id=102

Thank you for your time

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## Rubem Bastos

Hey!



> Shinigami (死神?, "death spirit")


This is a real names forum, sir!
Besides cool, the peace sword is made after an original. And how good it is goes beyond the thickness of the bamboo it can cut.
Any good sword beaten to whatever will be damaged. I suggest reading, reading and more reading on Japanese swords.
The real deal is a lot different from movies.

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## Aaron Justice

> I got a question about your Peace Katana.  I have been looking all over the internet for a good first katana.  After days and weeks of just looking at different makers and learning about katanas and how they are made.  I found that your Peace Katana is by far the coolest looking Katana I have ever seen.  I know you got what I'm looking for in terms of looks but what about the blade.  I saw a video where you said your blades on the peace katana are forged and very sharp.  How good at cutting is the peace katana's blade?(i.e. how thick of bamboo can it cut though or you could give your own exapmle of how good they are at cutting.)  I was wondering if by request you would put a Forged Folded blade on a peace katana and how much would that cost?  Also what if I bought a Tamahagane blade or L6 blade that would fit it, if you would dress it up like the peace katana and how much it would cost me for the peace katana with a blade I gave you? I only ask because I want a full battle ready katana that could be beat to **** and still look good.  I also ask because when It comes to katanas I want one with a very strong and good blade because I want to buy only one high end katana to last me for the rest of my life.  The blade is the most important part to me followed by looks.  
> 
> The only other katana I'm looking at is this one because Its a tamahagane blade and I know its been beat to death but the dragon style fittings.  (I like the dragon, grim reaper, death, or battle scene styles the most.) 
> http://www.budo-aoi.com/index.php?ma...roducts_id=102
> 
> Thank you for your time



Um... if you want to beat the crap out of a sword, it's not going to look good afterwards. Katana aren't lightsabers, they can be physically damaged through misuse. before you buy a katana everyone here will suggest you really, REALLY read up and research first before you buy one. I'm sure you're absolutely brand new at this and excited, but you may walk away with a $1700 katana snapped in two.

I doubt any katana has ever survived someones entire life time unless they NEVER used it.

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## Tsugio Kawakami

1) The Peace sword is forge folded.

2) I second both of these guys. If you want a sword to beat the crap out of, then you should probably get a crowbar. Japanese swords are very specialized cutting weapons. They function well when used right. When misused, they get damaged.

If you want a good sword that will cut well, this one would do fine...but it would do even better with some study and supervised, legitimate training.






> I doubt any katana has ever survived someones entire life time unless they NEVER used it.


Survived, plenty. Survived _unscathed_, considerably fewer. Unless you mean modern production pieces...

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## Oniryuu Shinigami

> Hey!
> 
> This is a real names forum, sir!
> Besides cool, the peace sword is made after an original. And how good it is goes beyond the thickness of the bamboo it can cut.
> Any good sword beaten to whatever will be damaged. I suggest reading, reading and more reading on Japanese swords.
> The real deal is a lot different from movies.


well that is my real name.  I had my name changed when I turned 18.

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## Oniryuu Shinigami

> 1) The Peace sword is forge folded.
> 
> 2) I second both of these guys. If you want a sword to beat the crap out of, then you should probably get a crowbar. Japanese swords are very specialized cutting weapons. They function well when used right. When misused, they get damaged.
> 
> If you want a good sword that will cut well, this one would do fine...but it would do even better with some study and supervised, legitimate training.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1.  Thanks I did not know it was already a Forged folded.  He says on his video its a production forge but I did not know if he meant just forged or forged folded.  

2. You guys make it sound like I'm going to go out hit a light pole with it.  lol Im not going to use it to hit anything I can find.  Just wanted to know how durable they are that's all.

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## Ken King

The steel most katana's made for Bugei is known as Swedish Powdered Steel(SPS for short). SPS is a very durable modern steel, Far superior to traditional steel in many ways. Folding this steel is done for purely aesthetic reasons(hada, ect). Folding the steel was orginally done to even out the carbon content and remove impurties. It isn't needed for a modern steel like SPS but sure looks nice! 

Anywho, yes the peace sword..along with any other katana offered by Bugei cuts well. What do you plan on cutting? I ask because the geometery of the blade does matter depending on the targets. No, you cannot buy a premade peace sword tsuka to fit a L6 or Tamahagane blade, that would be quite dangerous. Although, i'm sure you can commision a craftsman to make one for you. 

Good luck finding what you are looking for!

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## Oniryuu Shinigami

> The steel most katana's made for Bugei is known as Swedish Powdered Steel(SPS for short). SPS is a very durable modern steel, Far superior to traditional steel in many ways. Folding this steel is done for purely aesthetic reasons(hada, ect). Folding the steel was orginally done to even out the carbon content and remove impurties. It isn't needed for a modern steel like SPS but sure looks nice! 
> 
> Anywho, yes the peace sword..along with any other katana offered by bugei "cuts well." No, you cannot buy a premade peace sword tsuka to fit a L6 or Tamahagane blade, that would be quite dangerous. Although, i'm sure you can commision a craftsman to make one for you for. 
> 
> Good luck finding what you are looking for!



Thank you very much I did not know that about SPS.  I had heard of it.  If you cant put a premade one on there is it posibble to send the blade into bugei and they make one to fit the blade?

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## Ken King

As far as I know no. Keith does quality control for Bugei and little things like rewraps on messed up tsuka-ito they recieve. What you are talking about is getting a complete tsuka core/saya carved, lacquer/wrap same', and the tsuka-ito done up. Plus, you'd need to find a supplier for the F/K, menuki and tsuba. If you like that design and want your katana to look like the peace sword but want a different blade you need to fine a craftsman thats willing to the custom work. That is usually rather expensive and there is also usually a rather long que.

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## Oniryuu Shinigami

> As far as I know no. Keith does quality control for Bugei and little things like rewraps on messed up tsuka-ito they recieve. What you are talking about is getting a complete tsuka core/saya carved, lacquer/wrap same', and the tsuka-ito done up. Plus, you'd need to find a supplier for the F/K, menuki and tsuba. If you like that design and want your katana to look like the peace sword but want a different blade you need to fine a craftsman thats willing to the custom work. That is usually rather expensive and there is also usually a rather long que.




I see, so im better off just getting it as is or just buy a katana with a tamahagane blade like this one 
http://www.budo-aoi.com/index.php?ma...roducts_id=102

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## Aaron Justice

> Survived, plenty. Survived _unscathed_, considerably fewer. Unless you mean modern production pieces...


Well, I meant in good enough shape to be completely serviceable, not an overly polished blade with almost no hamon left. Especially a blade put under the stress the OP originally intended for it.

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## Aaron Justice

> 1.  Thanks I did not know it was already a Forged folded.  He says on his video its a production forge but I did not know if he meant just forged or forged folded.  
> 
> 2. You guys make it sound like I'm going to go out hit a light pole with it.  lol Im not going to use it to hit anything I can find.  Just wanted to know how durable they are that's all.


Well, you were the one who put you wanted to beat the shitake mushroom out of it. That came across to us as you were going to throw everything and anything in its path.

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## Guido Schiller

> well that is my real name.  I had my name changed when I turned 18.


Was that six years in the future?

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## Jason Anstey

:d:d:d:d:d:d

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## Gary S

> Well, I meant in good enough shape to be completely serviceable, not an overly polished blade with almost no hamon left. Especially a blade put under the stress the OP originally intended for it.


  1.It has been estimated that at the end of WWII, there were approximately 1,000,000 Nihonto in the United states alone. Let us assume that 99% of them were Gunto, temple swords, or are damaged badly enough to be no longer functional. That leaves us with about 10,000 swords _in the United States alone._ Surely some of them were used, especially those made before Sekigahara. Swords from that time period were made to be used for the most part.
2. It is not uncommon to see a perfectly good blade with cuts along the mune. These are generally considered a sign that the blade has been used, and if memory serves me correctly, can add to the value of the blade.
3. There is a difference between a given sword's monetary/art value and it's usability. A blade can be tired and have a worn hamon and still be perfectly functional.  There are different degrees of flaws. _Fatal_ flaws mean the sword is no longer functional as a weapon. An overpolished blade does not fit in this category as long as the hamon does not run off the edge and there are no other flaws such as ha giri.

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## Oniryuu Shinigami

> Was that six years in the future?


that's just rude.  im 21 almost 22 now.

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## Glen C.

> that's just rude.  im 21 almost 22 now.


O S

If there is any question as to your background you would like to clarify with administration, you may want to contact them at the front page of www.swordforum.com

If you care to for the benefit for others, take some time to fill out your profile information and then make a more formal introduction yourself if you wish to be taken seriously here.

It is the summer season and with the summer comes university students and high schoolers looking to fill their time. I do though suggest spending a good amount of time browsing and reading regarding your interests. Through that, a lot of simple questions will be answered by doing so. 

Have a good one

Glen

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## AJ Post

wow I just started to look at Bugei and this peace katana is a master piece of art.  Looks too cool to be true.  Do my eyes deceive me or is it real?  Hai Hai Hai it is real.  Amazing!!!

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## Jonathan Frances

> wow I just started to look at Bugei and this peace katana is a master piece of art.  Looks too cool to be true.  Do my eyes deceive me or is it real?  Hai Hai Hai it is real.  Amazing!!!


It's a pretty cool production sword, but a master piece of art might be going a bit far.  For what it is, I'm sure its a great piece.  The Kokuten tachi at moderntosho might be more deserving of that particular title.

However, the peace sword and its koshirae are pretty neat.  I'd be curious about its handling capabilities.  A while back there was a good write-up on the Bugei forums comparing their line-up.  Something like an updated version of that would be very useful.

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## AJ Post

> It's a pretty cool production sword, but a master piece of art might be going a bit far.  For what it is, I'm sure its a great piece.  The Kokuten tachi at moderntosho might be more deserving of that particular title.
> 
> However, the peace sword and its koshirae are pretty neat.  I'd be curious about its handling capabilities.  A while back there was a good write-up on the Bugei forums comparing their line-up.  Something like an updated version of that would be very useful.


Do you mean this katana ?
http://www.moderntosho.com/sale/kokuten3.htm
I agree that it is pretty sweet with its double bo-hi (personally I think that's the coolest kind of bo-hi)

If this is not the katana you meant you should post it all is did to find this one is google this Kokuten tachi at moderntosho and hit the first link.

I think the coolest part of this katana is the saya and that it is based off a famous haiku.  The skull meaning life or death was cool too.

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## Keith Larman

> However, the peace sword and its koshirae are pretty neat.  I'd be curious about its handling capabilities.  A while back there was a good write-up on the Bugei forums comparing their line-up.  Something like an updated version of that would be very useful.


That write-up was done by Dimytri a while ago and I don't think he's seen one of the new Peace swords. 

The blade is difficult to categorize IMO because it is a bit different from most of Bugei's offerings. It is a somewhat moderate sword in terms of size. However, I kept the niku light in the design and with the shallow futasuji-bi the blade is lighter than it appears. I will admit I designed the sword to be what *I* like in a sword in terms of size, shape and dynamics. Most production swords I find to be poorly balanced and often feel "heavy" in my hands so I tend to prefer lighter production pieces. However, this one feels more "correct" to me as it handles faster even thought it isn't as light as other swords I have. For instance I also have a Dragonfly with Bo-hi. That feels very light in my hands and I like it for that reason (good for iai training). The Peace sword feels a bit heavier as an absolute thing, but in the hand it handles like it is lighter than it really is. And with a stronger cross section I think it would probably do better with blown cuts. 

Handling is a really complicated issue. One factor is the shape of the tsuka. The Peace swords are supposed to have tsuka that curve with the sword. That can make a dramatic difference in perceived weight and balance. Then add in that you're talking about a curving, complex shape that is being moved and turned through 3d space... Anyway, long story short I would say it is about in the middle of the pack in terms of weight but handles like a lighter sword due to the tapers, grooves, and shape. Or... Exactly what I was hoping to get with the design. A sword that would be relatively robust but still be a good training blade for the serious student of iaido.

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## Jonathan Frances

Thank you much for the detailed response.

Yes, it was Dimytri's write up I was thinking of!  Still a valuable reference.  Through the dojo I've had a chance to handle a variety of Bugei katana, two samurai, two bamboo, a crane, a wave, and a dragonfly  - I have to say he was very much on the mark.  It would still be great to have the new offerings covered in as much of a comparative manner as it would be possible.

That actually sounds really good.  I know it is hard to pigeon-hole the swords.  Even though the various models are probably very consistent in feel there are going to be subtle variations that change handling characteristics.  Really the only way I know of being sure is to get it in hand.  I'm planning a trip out West at some point towards the end of the year, I'll make a strong effort to stop by the shop and say hi to whoever might be in that day and hopefully get a closer look at some things.

Always appreciate your posts.

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## Keith Larman

> Yes, it was Dimytri's write up I was thinking of!  Still a valuable reference.  Through the dojo I've had a chance to handle a variety of Bugei katana, two samurai, two bamboo, a crane, a wave, and a dragonfly  - I have to say he was very much on the mark.  It would still be great to have the new offerings covered in as much of a comparative manner as it would be possible.


Yeah, I was kinda skeptical when he first put it out. But in reading it I realized he did a pretty good job. However, keep in mind that since these are all hand made things have varied over the years. I've seen some really robust bamboo models and some that were a lot lighter. I've heard people say the Crane is really light only to see some real bruisers. It is a tough issue and in many ways there is a very large subjective issue that complicates matters tremendously. I've met people who do arts that prefer bigger, heavier blades and those who like them light. So when someone says "moderate" are they speaking in relation to what they like or the overall? 




> That actually sounds really good.  I know it is hard to pigeon-hole the swords.  Even though the various models are probably very consistent in feel there are going to be subtle variations that change handling characteristics.  Really the only way I know of being sure is to get it in hand.  I'm planning a trip out West at some point towards the end of the year, I'll make a strong effort to stop by the shop and say hi to whoever might be in that day and hopefully get a closer look at some things.


I'd be really surprised if any Peace Swords will be on the shelf for anything longer than a few days. To the best of my knowledge they're about to put in yet another order at the factory since they keep getting orders faster than they get the swords. So perpetual back-order. For the rest of this year the only way one will be on the shelf is that if it comes in and I haven't gone down yet to do QC. They're basically all spoken for at least for the rest of the year unless the factory is able to start putting them out for Bugei faster. But we insist on high quality and as a result I guess we have to deal with slower production as a result. Lord knows they'd love to sell as many as possible right away, but... If the factory can't deliver... 




> Always appreciate your posts.


Glad to help.

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## Alex Kakashi

> Was that six years in the future?


ROFL

Well....after a break from SFI im glad to see that the style and content hasnt changed much over here on the 'ol "katana sword" board.  

Mr. Schiller, Im surprised you bother reading through posts like Oniryuu No Kami Miyamoto Shinigami Musashi Kenshin X's - (the full name on his updated birth cirtificate)  although praisworthy it is..!  

Keith, I find it slightly depressing that the only reason Bugei are still making those horribly inaccurate nakago (forgive me but yeah....they are horrible and inaccurate compared to what you guys and Chen Chao Po COULD be making for the same production costs) all these years on.  

And there I was thinking that consumers of production katana were now more educated and discerning than ever.... clearly not enough of either though <shakes head>

My sincere wish is that bugei would start making decent copies of famous Juyo and national treasures (I know what youre going to say, but the KM was just a little too out there) - perhaps even throw in a Kiyomaru or Yoshihara instead of these bizarre hybrid swords.  As you said, they are purely designed to fit with a marketing ploy to convince the ill educated / misinformed that they are worth buying.  It is especially irksome to those of us in the know who realise that neither performance nor aesthetics are elevated whatsoever with these new "??safer??" designs.  

Did bugei consider the totally untapped sword market for those nihonto owners/lovers that are looking for a sub $2000 copy of a famous nihonto complete with a realistic nakago (a fairly important part of any good sword)?

Lead by example and dispell the myth of skinny 12 inch nakago being a necessity!!    Please!!!  

If they were supposed to be like this the greats would have been making them such.  N'est pas?!

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## Aaron Justice

> Did bugei consider the totally untapped sword market for those nihonto owners/lovers that are looking for a sub $2000 copy of a famous nihonto complete with a realistic nakago (a fairly important part of any good sword)?
> 
> Lead by example and dispell the myth of skinny 12 inch nakago being a necessity!!    Please!!!


Before Keith jumps in, Alex, may I ask if you've ever had to deal one on one with customers and their demands? I put in a story abut myself and the client who wanted me to perform suriage on a katana to make the nakago longer and therefore "safer". By insisting that's not the way it needs to be done, I lost a sale.

I sincerely doubt that realistic copies of famous nihonto would be even 1/3rd as much of a seller as the swords Bugei currently produces. I honestly thought what Bugei was doing with the Lion Dog katana, and currently with these katana are a bit risky given the shaky economy right now. After all, if the price goes too high, some low cost nihonto could be purchased around the price of a really high end production blade.

There is a point to be made about expecting only so much from a production outlet, even one given every single detail imaginable to work from. After all, they could end up making a decent copy of my nihonto that I currently own, but the blade they could make could come back too heavy, off balance, or perhaps light enough but just "dead" in the hands.

Instead, Bugei makes blades to how they can manage, and how the current customers want them. Production swords shouldn't really be about education. They're about providing alternatives to practitioners of every level so they don't have to use a nihonto, or have to commission a 9 thousand dollar shinsakuto.

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## Keith Larman

> ROFL
> 
> Well....after a break from SFI im glad to see that the style and content hasnt changed much over here on the 'ol "katana sword" board.  
> 
> Mr. Schiller, Im surprised you bother reading through posts like Oniryuu No Kami Miyamoto Shinigami Musashi Kenshin X's - (the full name on his updated birth cirtificate)  although praisworthy it is..!  
> 
> Keith, I find it slightly depressing that the only reason Bugei are still making those horribly inaccurate nakago (forgive me but yeah....they are horrible and inaccurate compared to what you guys and Chen Chao Po COULD be making for the same production costs) all these years on.  
> 
> And there I was thinking that consumers of production katana were now more educated and discerning than ever.... clearly not enough of either though <shakes head>
> ...


You can't be serious. Have you ever seen a Kiyomaro in person? Do you know what you're looking at? Have you seen *any* production sword that even remotely looks like a Kiyomaro? Or a "Yoshihara" (I assume you mean Yoshindo, but there are other Yoshihara smiths)? Or a Juyo in person for that matter? There is *no* mistaking the differences. I used a Juyo Tadayoshi school blade as a "template" of sorts to try to keep the "look" relatively consistent. There is *NO FREAKING WAY* they could be confused with the real deal unless you are totally uneducated. As a matter of fact I've argued with folk saying we *shouldn't* release blades saying they're mean to be just like so and so. I try very hard to make a distinction that a blade might be inspired by a famous smith's work or dimensions of a famous sword, but that's where it ends. Because there is *no* comparison. And quite frankly selling something that kinda looks like a "Yoshihara" (whatever that may be) is itself somewhat dishonest and taking advantage of those who want to buy what they're telling themselves is less expensive version of the real thing. Now that is just insulting to the smith's work, the craft overall, and to the intelligence of the customer. 

On a second issue... Have you ever carved and subsequently applied samekawa and wrapped a tsuka for a conventionally shaped antique katana? How much do you know about the issues involved. Do you realize that one of the most difficult parts of getting a clean, proper fit is matching up to the curves and flow of a traditional nakago. Of course done correctly it is a great thing. Also consider the issue of wood. Do you think they're importing honoki from Japan? Or using something even remotely as good? Heck, the last honoki blank I bought for a katana from Japan cost me more than some people here spend on an entire sword. Have you considered that by using a thinner but longer nakago they can not only have an easier time carving a proper fit *but* they also leave the wood thicker which makes for a stronger overall tsuka given the lower level of skill? 

They're production swords. They're tools for swordsmen training in the JSA's. I  freaking well charge more to polish a katana than the entire peace sword costs, in the box, delivered to your door. And if you've been paying attention for that decade or more you'd notice the incredible jump in quality that has occurred. Mostly because a few people have worked *very hard* to educate the general public all while working very hard to improve the quality of what companies like Bugei puts out. All for basically nothing. 


Yeah, I should step up and do something. Obviously I've not done enough. Pfft.

----------


## Glen C.

Hi Keith,

Please disregard as needed the potential for our very occasional visitors that find little of worth to either offer or read.  Adrian once noted on an aside that there is no rule for some posting what amounts to idiocy. If inflammatory, these should be as easily ignored unless verbal personal assaults start to occur.

As always, your thoughts and information are always well regarded here and I do understand how some commentary of others is useless white noise in the grand scheme of things.

Most cordially

Glen





> ROFL
> 
> Well....after a break from SFI im glad to see that the style and content hasnt changed much over here on the 'ol "katana sword" board.  
> 
> Mr. Schiller, Im surprised you bother reading through posts like Oniryuu No Kami Miyamoto Shinigami Musashi Kenshin X's - (the full name on his updated birth cirtificate)  although praisworthy it is..!  
> 
> Keith, I find it slightly depressing that the only reason Bugei are still making those horribly inaccurate nakago (forgive me but yeah....they are horrible and inaccurate compared to what you guys and Chen Chao Po COULD be making for the same production costs) all these years on.  
> 
> And there I was thinking that consumers of production katana were now more educated and discerning than ever.... clearly not enough of either though <shakes head>
> ...








> You can't be serious. Have you ever seen a Kiyomaro in person? Do you know what you're looking at? Have you seen *any* production sword that even remotely looks like a Kiyomaro? Or a "Yoshihara" (I assume you mean Yoshindo, but there are other Yoshihara smiths)? Or a Juyo in person for that matter? There is *no* mistaking the differences. I used a Juyo Tadayoshi school blade as a "template" of sorts to try to keep the "look" relatively consistent. There is *NO FREAKING WAY* they could be confused with the real deal unless you are totally uneducated. As a matter of fact I've argued with folk saying we *shouldn't* release blades saying they're mean to be just like so and so. I try very hard to make a distinction that a blade might be inspired by a famous smith's work or dimensions of a famous sword, but that's where it ends. Because there is *no* comparison. And quite frankly selling something that kinda looks like a "Yoshihara" (whatever that may be) is itself somewhat dishonest and taking advantage of those who want to buy what they're telling themselves is less expensive version of the real thing. Now that is just insulting to the smith's work, the craft overall, and to the intelligence of the customer. 
> 
> On a second issue... Have you ever carved and subsequently applied samekawa and wrapped a tsuka for a conventionally shaped antique katana? How much do you know about the issues involved. Do you realize that one of the most difficult parts of getting a clean, proper fit is matching up to the curves and flow of a traditional nakago. Of course done correctly it is a great thing. Also consider the issue of wood. Do you think they're importing honoki from Japan? Or using something even remotely as good? Heck, the last honoki blank I bought for a katana from Japan cost me more than some people here spend on an entire sword. Have you considered that by using a thinner but longer nakago they can not only have an easier time carving a proper fit *but* they also leave the wood thicker which makes for a stronger overall tsuka given the lower level of skill? 
> 
> They're production swords. They're tools for swordsmen training in the JSA's. I  freaking well charge more to polish a katana than the entire peace sword costs, in the box, delivered to your door. And if you've been paying attention for that decade or more you'd notice the incredible jump in quality that has occurred. Mostly because a few people have worked *very hard* to educate the general public all while working very hard to improve the quality of what companies like Bugei puts out. All for basically nothing. 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I should step up and do something. Obviously I've not done enough. Pfft.

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## Paul Smith

> Yeah, I should step up and do something. Obviously I've not done enough.


  I totally agree Keith. You _should_ step up and do something ... like maybe make a Margarita or have a glass of wine.  :Smilie: 
  If you're going to be at the West Coast Tai Kai I'll buy you a couple, and personally deliver a collective "thanks" from all of us in the JSA world that have benefited from all of the hard work that you've put in over the years.

  Cheers!

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## Rubem Bastos

Someone here will be changing name again anytime soon  :Big Grin: 
Keith, your contributions to the forum are priceless.

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## Glen C.

> Someone here will be changing name again anytime soon 
> Keith, your contributions to the forum are priceless.


Attitude is one thing any can change at any time  :Wink:

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## Alex Kakashi

> You can't be serious. Have you ever seen a Kiyomaro in person? Do you know what you're looking at? Have you seen *any* production sword that even remotely looks like a Kiyomaro? Or a "Yoshihara" (I assume you mean Yoshindo, but there are other Yoshihara smiths)? Or a Juyo in person for that matter? There is *no* mistaking the differences. I used a Juyo Tadayoshi school blade as a "template" of sorts to try to keep the "look" relatively consistent. There is *NO FREAKING WAY* they could be confused with the real deal unless you are totally uneducated. 
> 
> On a second issue... Have you ever carved and subsequently applied samekawa and wrapped a tsuka for a conventionally shaped antique katana? 
> 
> Do you think they're importing honoki from Japan? Or using something even remotely as good? 
> 
> And if you've been paying attention for that decade or more you'd notice the 
> incredible jump in quality that has occurred. Mostly because a few people have worked *very hard* to educate the general public all while working very hard to improve the quality of what companies like Bugei puts out. All for basically nothing. 
> 
> Yeah, I should step up and do something. Obviously I've not done enough. Pfft.


Keith!!  First a sip on that Margarita - 

I did not mean to be quite as facetious as my post came off.  

To answer your questions yes I have seen Juyo blades in person, yes I have seen a Kiyomaru in person, yes I knew what I was looking at when I saw that Kiyomaru, no I have never seen a production sword that looked anything like one, but then again I have never seen a production sword I mistook for a nihonto. 

Yes, I am aware that Paul Chen with the smiths, steels, techniques and factory workers he uses have no hope in hell of creating the same activities either in hamon or ji steel as any even semi famous moderately skilled Japanese smith.

In addition Paul Chen has no hope in hell of creating the same finish on his production swords that someone like Mishima, a midranking japanese polisher or your good self could put on an art sword.

However, what he could do is make a fair approximation.  Superficially it might not look close to the real thing to trained eyes, but theres no reason why it shouldnt feel exactly like the real thing, and look at least somewhat similar being as that it would have identical dimentions at every point along the blade.

I know Chen doesnt use Honoki, but he could use poplar instead.

I was not suggesting Bugei try to recreate art swords...ie make new true art.  I was suggesting Bugei attempt to recreate THE DIMENSIONS  and feel of good old swords, my main point being NAKAGO INCLUDED - the peace sword as far as the sugata goes is by far the closest Bugei have gotten - I just would have loved to have seen a decent nakago on it!  (incidentally, the photo you posted was very beautiful, but the nakago in the middle wasnt) 

Try to look past my name dropping, they were simply supposed to be examples, I applaud your choosing the best of the Hizen smiths as the inspiration for the peace sword.  We all know everyone loves a Hizen smiths.  My comments really arnt THAT outrageous however.  I wasnt necessarily referring to Yoshindo.  His father also made great swords. 
I am not familiar with every Juyo blade and havnt done the research so am not sure which generation Tadayoshi the peace sword was modelled after but there was more than one good Tadayoshi.

Lastly, chillax Keith, we all know full well youve done more and worked harder than anyone else to educate the public and influence production sword design, always for the better; but this is exactly why I directed my post at you.  Youre the only one with any hope of pushing things through.  Im sorry if I tweaked your ire.  I will make it up to you with a comission and a beer if you would accept sometime in the future, promise.  You wont know its me though haha...

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## Guido Schiller

> Mr. Schiller, Im surprised you bother reading through posts like Oniryuu


I dont read much on SFI anymore, and reply even less, but when Im online I make sure to read all of Keiths posts/threads. Because we go way back, and because hes one of the very few on SFI who has something to say of real substance.




> someone like Mishima, a midranking japanese polisher


I admire your high standards. Calling a Mukansa (I assume you mean Kenji *Mishina*) mid-ranking testifies to your discerning eye when it comes to polishes. Since were friends Ill make sure to mention that to him next time we meet, Im sure hell be proud that you somewhat approve of his work.

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## Alex Kakashi

> I don’t read much on SFI anymore, and reply even less, but when I’m online I make sure to read all of Keith’s posts/threads. Because we go way back, and because he’s one of the very few on SFI who has something to say of real substance.


Which is exactly why I commented on the fact that you had bothered to comment.  I agree with what you said and I also read all of Keith's posts.  
I was being serious and was grateful for the fact that you made me LOL and my comment was not in any way meant as derogatory towards you.  
I read all of your posts also.




> I admire your high standards. Calling a Mukansa (I assume you mean Kenji *Mishina*) “mid-ranking” testifies to your discerning eye when it comes to polishes.


Come come now.  yes Kenji, and yes, an irrelavent typo - it has been long established that there is little discernable difference between m and n in romanised japanese and the two are used interchangably...anyhow the typo was not spotted on a cursory proof read as I was in a bit of a rush.   Kenji Mishina is probably the most famous polisher in the world, certainly outside of Japan.  Give me a break. I obviously was not insinuating that Kenji Mishina was a mid-ranking polisher!  I meant that the factory swords had no hope of being polished in the way a mukansa togi would polish a Juyo, the way a mid-ranking polisher would polish a nihonto or even the way an american togi who specialised in non traditional steels would polish a 1086 / L6 blade.  What with the wealth of literature on the man and several highly regarded books written/translated by him.......well whatever.  I am at this moment staring at the spine of one of his works on the shelf across from my desk.




> Since we’re friends I’ll make sure to mention that to him next time we meet, I’m sure he’ll be proud that you somewhat approve of his work.


Im sure you wont.  Please go back to NMB and stop wasting time on me.

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## Keith Larman

Consider that in this day and age there are modern steels with well defined metallurgy that can be heat treated with relative ease with a wide range of error and still produce exceptional tools. And yet people will focus on getting a "tamahagane" blade but from a factory. A notoriously difficult material to work with. If my smith is going to be making a blade of tamahagane it had better have some top notch heat treat. And if they had that kind of work in them we'd see a heck of a lot more in these things than what we're seeing -- those activities and "workings" are signposts of a nailed heat treat. But that's not what we see in the Chinese made pieces. Yet people want to focus on what "looks like" a traditional sword, but for cheap. Okay, that's fine. But that has never been the focus of Bugei's swords -- their focus is function and safety first and foremost. Bugei has tried to keep their stuff focused on the experienced martial arts market. In part that is due to both myself and other craftsmen who have worked with them trying to emphasize that these are *not* art swords. We both have the deepest respect for the traditional craft and see these more as a means of providing swords that people can train with to help preserve the blades of old. WRT to things "out of sight" I want to be functional and safe. These nakago are that and it addresses a variety of issues present in the market. 

Yes, we try to make things look as authentic as we can within reason. But they are *not* traditionally polished -- that's really an insult to real polishers. These are *not* nihonto, that's an insult to the licensed swordsmiths and I worry that any comparison will be taken wrong. It is *really* a concern I have as I work across fields. I have the deepest respect for the traditional craft and the last thing I want to do is give any impression that there is any comparison. There is a reason good quality blades in proper polish cost a hell of a lot more. And these are not swords to be removed from their mounts and proudly displayed like a nihonto -- they are swords to be used. Experienced Martial Artist training tools. I was asked to help reintroduce an old design that was more ornate such that the entire sword in koshirae could be used for display but also still be used. The Lion Dog Daisho was the result of that. Some customers like flashy fittings. Okay, done. It is still a production sword and my first priority was safety for use. 

The next project was to create a sword that was more like a blade you might find in the obi of a samurai of a period long gone that had a consistent look and feel. It is not strictly accurate but I did try to address functional aspects such as the shaping of the saya, the shaping of the tsuka, the placement of the kurigata, etc. And I think I did make a lot of progress there. And you're worried about the nakago? I wanted something that looked decent but still followed traditional look and feel. The Peace Sword was a result of that. I did *not* try to make a Hizen School piece -- I used the blade dimensions of a shape I liked to try to enforce a more traditional look to ensure it would handle more like it should. Again, function for the martial artist. 

I discussed the nakago simply to point out that like all aspects of these things, they are *not* nihonto. But I did want to talk about each solution that allows a fully polished, mounted sword that handles like the real thing that follows many of the parameters and style of the real thing could be made for a very low price ($1600 in this case). The point here is that part of the reason for the low price is in the solution they came up with to deal with a variety of competing requirements. Some imposed by the market. Some imposed by production methods. Some imposed by ensuring safety in the final product while still allowed them to make them in a cost effective way.

Over the years I've been there I've never, ever seen a nakago on one of these bent. I've also made new tsuka for more than I can remember and they work just fine. Frankly they give a lot of "wiggle room" for shaping you don't always get on more traditional nakago shapes. I'm not saying it is better, just a different solution. Especially considering that Bugei's blades come with options for both long and short nakago. In other words... They work fine. 

Also consider the logistics of carving nakago. A less curving nakago with less "belly" is vastly easier to carve. Consider needing to make 50 tsuka for a variety of swords. If you keep the nakago fairly consistent regardless of eventual tsuka length you can adjust each blade fairly easily and you can start the inletting of the tsuka cores with a consistent "hogging out" of material. Me, I start with a hand tools and an exacto knife. It takes a long time for me to do it but I'm not working in a production environment. Production sword, remember? Safety and function first, then the balancing of cost and accuracy. 

Or there was the Chinese "tamahagane" blade I saw that the customer wanted tuned up. The nakago "looked" more traditional -- I'm sure you would have liked it. However, subtle aspects of the taper were wrong which affected the habaki fit. It couldn't be correctly fit without modification to the nakago. Sure, looks better -- most would say "wow, nice". But the subtle details were still wrong. And frankly from a "functional" and "safety" POV I would have rather seen a Hanwei style nakago. At least that I can work without having to get out files and rebuild everything, habaki included.

To be blunt there are many other things I'd have them address well before I'd worry about whether the nakago is shaped more like a traditional nakago. The nakago is a hidden aspect of the sword in a user tool. The solution is safe, solves some problems, keeps the price down, and allows us to offer multiple tsuka lengths for the varied requirements of a diverse customer base. Again, these aren't art swords, they're intended to martial arts training tools that approximate the look and feel of the real deal. The *first* priority is safety. And unlike so many production swords that come with cracked and poorly fit tsuka, I have worked very hard to ensure they get this right with Bugei's swords. And I'm not going to start changing the look of the nakago to address what the sword looks like outside the mounts when there are other things I'd rather see addressed first and considering the fact they were never designed to be dismounted for display -- these are training tools. They're weapons. They're not art pieces. I do try to make them look as nice as I can, but really, function first.

They are what they are -- top notch training tools. The nakago length also addresses the fact that overwhelmingly customers want a second mekugi in their sword as far back as possible. Heck, it is a *requirement* for some schools, especially for production swords. So if we want to be able to provide training tools for those groups we must deal with that reality as well. There are also schools who train with and utilize longer tsuka. Yes, they are in the minority, but... They are out there and most of them also want a second mekugi as far back as possible. That ain't gonna happen with a shorter nakago. I can make a safe, long tsuka for a shorter nakago piece. Done it many times. But if I make a tsuka for one of these you can be damned sure it will cost a heck of a lot more than many of the people here would be willing to pay. Because, again, this is a 1600 sword. 

Honestly the whole thing is ridiculous to me. People pontificate about what's good, better or worse about things but I get to do the QC, see what comes back, and see what damage people do to swords. And quite frankly 95% of the things people here worry about are trivial compared to the 5% they don't even think about that makes vastly more difference. 


And if you really want something to dislike, I just submitted a series of suggested hamon for the first of Bugei's "existing" designs in terms of making them available in the newer high alloy steel. Yeah, that one with no hada. No folds. So no folds *and* a non traditional nakago! And a modern heat treat. But I picked a few hamon styles to match the koshirae or the overall blade shape/feel. We'll see if they can do what we ask and we might be offering a few if they can pull it off and we're satisfied with things. And yes, those nakago that you would find virtually impossible to damage will likely be shaped exactly the same... Because it works just fine as a functional compromise. Because these aren't art swords. They're not nihonto. And the functional nakago are hidden away inside the mounts doing their job just fine. 


And as an aside, Yoshindo's father (Masazane) was a swordsmith only briefly and there are few of his blades around. WWII interrupted his work as a young man and from what I understand he went back to making edged tools (which was the family business). If I remember correctly the owned a carpentry tool shop or something like that and never made swords again once the war broke out and then sword making was temporarily banned. 

I think you're thinking of Kuniee, Yoshindo's Grandfather. He taught Yoshindo and his brother Shoji (Kuniie). Yoshindo trained his son, Yoshikazu, himself a Mukansa smith. Yoshindo also trained Ono Yoshimitsu as well as a number of others. And while the "Yoshihara tradition" has a certain Bizen tradition, their work is varied and quite individualistic among each of them.

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## Grayson Davis

Keith, it's been a while since this thread was originally posted, but as a big fan of your Peace sword motif and blade design, is there anything you can say regarding an update to your comments here? To give you some context for my curiosity, I am a battodo/iaido student looking for a live blade I can use for both repetitive kata AND intensive tameshigiri. I can really get behind your reasoning with the design of the Peace sword, and the thought of this design with an improved heat treat in the Bugei price range would have me shoving money at my computer screen.

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