# Communities > Modern-era Swords and Collecting Community > Modern Production Katanas >  Production Habaki and Machi

## Benjamin P.

So, I've been looking around... and it seems like no production company is doing it "right" (historically)...

Paul Chen/Hanwei swords have correct machi that are parallel, but the habaki has a notch where the ha-machi goes in.  From what I've gathered from some older threads, this is not kosher... and I've yet to see any picture of antique habaki with a notch like that.  At least it's a good candidate for a new custom habaki... but who would spend that much getting a good habaki made for a mere production blade?   :Confused: 

All others... FC/Huanuo... Cheness... etc. have the ha-machi that just rests on top of the habaki.  So, the mune-machi and ha-machi are not parallel.  Personally, this bugs me a lot.  This means that you can't even make a new habaki (done right) on even their best and most expensive blade, like a Dynasty FF or Tamahagane....  which really sucks.  There was a recent thread about a Chinese custom maker, who is supposed to be really famous... but his habaki seem to be done this way too!   :Confused:  

And I think I've read on one older review that MAS swords' habaki don't even have any notches at all.  Both mune-machi and ha-machi just rest on top of the habaki....  If any current owners of MAS could comment on that, it'd be awesome.

I know I'm not saying anything new here...  although I'm proud of myself as a n00b that I used the right terms to describe what I mean  :Big Grin:  ....

*Anyway*, the thing is, once in a while, a really knowledgeable craftsman like Keith Larman will post saying how there is always a very good reason why the Japanese did what they did, and why the craft evolved in the way that it did.... Which tells me that there must be a very good and very important reason why the ha-machi is supposed to be inside the habaki and not outside of it resting on top.

So, my question is... what are those reasons?   :Confused:   Is it (like so many other reasons) a safety issue?  Or does it not matter much at all?  Why don't production companies get it "right"?  Is it just one of those details that are overlooked as they try to make things that at least "appear" to be traditional?  Is it a cost issue?  I've noticed that even Bugei swords don't do it right....  which probably means that even the "Paper Crane" tamahagane daisho, won't do it right.....

Thanks in advance for any answers... and for the patience for putting up with what might be a really dumb question from a n00b....  :Embarrassment:

----------


## michael wilson

Not a dumb question at all benjamin  - its good to read questions 
about the why's and hows of the japanese sword instead of just 
masahiro V ryumon , or another  'look at my new wrap' threads .

The habaki with a notch is not wrong , it exists in historical examples of habaki on nihonto  - in fact my towns museum has a display with three nihonto and all of them have the notched habaki 

Like you said - the japanese did every thing for good reason especially were the sword was concerned , the habaki is one of the major parts of the sword were short cuts should not be taken and its also one of the main areas were cheap production swords fall down , Ive seen habaki so loose they rattle around when the tsuka is off and also ive seen real cheap chinatana were the habaki has been forced on to the point were the blade 
has split the seam  - not good at all.

I have a PC Kami habaki in the pipeline , its a two piece brass/copper affair without the notch,  I am looking to fit it to a blade with similiar width and thickness to the kami but I am under no illusion about the fact that some serious rework will be needed
to get this anywhere near a good enough fit  - its an experiment 
and a chance to use my new tools but I dont reconmend trying to fit any habaki to any sword  - in an ideal situation they should all be custom made  - its not a one size fits all thing .

One important aspect is the machigane  - the small wedge shaped piece that butts up against the hamachi , this is usually added to a custom fitted habaki once the major fitting and shaping is complete  - just another important part of the habaki that one size fits all does  not cover .

Will Martin and Spencer Scher are making good copper habaki along traditional lines , if one of them weighs in here they will have some good info to talk about on the subject . 

Mick

----------


## Timo Qvintus

My KC Bingo's habaki has a notch like that of my PC's; on my OF Shobu the hamachi sits on top the habaki; on all others the hamachi is inside the habaki to some extent (I'm not going to disassemble them now, so I can't really say how much they go inside). Can you post a picture of what you see as "the right way" to do it?

----------


## Benjamin P.

> My KC Bingo's habaki has a notch like that of my PC's; on my OF Shobu the hamachi sits on top the habaki; on all others the hamachi is inside the habaki to some extent (I'm not going to disassemble them now, so I can't really say how much they go inside). Can you post a picture of what you see as "the right way" to do it?


Honestly, you're asking a bit too much from a beginner like myself.... LOL...   :Smilie:   I just want to really know if this is a safety issue or not and what are the reasons why the machi is inside the habaki on traditional nihonto.  Can anyone help?

----------


## Keith Larman

The hamachi is *usually* enclosed by the habaki -- i.e., the ha side of the habaki is welded the entire length and not just ending where the machigane ends at the hamachi.

However, that said, there are instances of habaki done without the weld continuing. And frankly a properly done habaki will *not* have the hamachi in contact inside the habaki anyway -- that little piece is very fragile. 

So my position on it (fwiw) is that with production swords I'd rather see the habaki with the slot allowing the hamachi some space since the fit isn't always as perfect as a totally hand made, hand fit custom habaki. It just makes more sense in a production environment. 

A high end custom made habaki? I'd rather see the entire thing welded as it is a testament to the ability of the craftsman. 

But I wouldn't worry about either configuration as long as the habaki is properly built and fits correctly.

----------


## Keith Larman

> ...on my OF Shobu the hamachi sits on top the habaki ...


So the hamachi butts up against the outside of the habaki? Do you have a picture of that? I'm not so sure that's a good way to go...

----------


## Timo Qvintus

> So the hamachi butts up against the outside of the habaki? Do you have a picture of that? I'm not so sure that's a good way to go...


not yet but I'll have one tomorrow..  :Wink:  

while we wait, would you spare some time to go into the why's of how habaki, machigane and hamachi interact? this thread has peaked my curiosity. I know, I know.. "it depends", right?  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Keith Larman

Gotta go teach a couple classes tonight and then I have to attend a misogi barai very early tomorrow morning. If I'm still functional tomorrow I'll see if I have time to post something. But until then... It depends...  :Wink:

----------


## michael wilson

do you mean like the PC kami   - where the habaki butts up to the 
hamachi as there is no inlet to allow for the usual fit ?

mick

----------


## Benjamin P.

> So the hamachi butts up against the outside of the habaki? Do you have a picture of that? I'm not so sure that's a good way to go...




I hope this picture shows what I mean...  maybe I'm wrong, but I think the great majority of production habaki are made in this way where the ha-machi just rests on top of the habaki and is not parallel to the mune-machi.

Could you please explain why this is a bad idea?  I'm just assuming it's a bad idea because the traditional craftsmen probably had a good reason why the ha-machi was inside the habaki, notched or not....

----------


## Remy B

yes Benjamin, most production blade are like this but its not the correct way. Also most production habaki are cast so... thats all wrong to begin with  :Smilie:

----------


## Benjamin P.

> yes Benjamin, most production blade are like this but its not the correct way. Also most production habaki are cast so... thats all wrong to begin with


Yes... but now I'm looking for technical explanation about why it's a bad idea...  My guess is that it's some kind of safety issue, but I want to really understand what is involved...   :Smilie:

----------


## Ruud B

Have you seen these treads?
they have tons of info and diagrams.
http://forums.swordforum.com/attachm...7&d=1017478217

http://forums.swordforum.com/attachm...6&d=1017478017

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...threadid=66259

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=1692

http://www.scnf.org/habaki.html#Cutting

----------


## Timo Qvintus

> I hope this picture shows what I mean...  maybe I'm wrong, but I think the great majority of production habaki are made in this way where the ha-machi just rests on top of the habaki and is not parallel to the mune-machi.
> 
> Could you please explain why this is a bad idea?  I'm just assuming it's a bad idea because the traditional craftsmen probably had a good reason why the ha-machi was inside the habaki, notched or not....


Nope, that's not it, I'll try to remember to take those pics tomorrow..  :Wink:

----------


## Andi B.

> I hope this picture shows what I mean...  maybe I'm wrong, but I think the great majority of production habaki are made in this way where the ha-machi just rests on top of the habaki and is not parallel to the mune-machi.
> 
> Could you please explain why this is a bad idea?  I'm just assuming it's a bad idea because the traditional craftsmen probably had a good reason why the ha-machi was inside the habaki, notched or not....


...I suppose it is cheaper and easier to make unparallel Ha- and Munemachi and a simply welded Habaki instead of creating a properly fitting Machigane and fix it inside the Habaki etc...


_
BTW here I tried to make one for an old blade with two Ha- and Munemachi (Why was this done?), so I had to make Machigane inside the Habaki on the Ha and Mune side:_



_...and then I upgraded it to a two-piece Habaki:_

----------


## Benjamin P.

Oh my God....

Your work is AWESOME Andi!!  I wish I had the skills to do something like that.... I always liked the look of double habaki.

----------


## Timo Qvintus

Here's a close-up of OF Shobu's habaki/hamachi:

----------


## Benjamin P.

Timo, that's exactly what I mean, isn't it?  The ha-machi in that picture is just resting on top of the habaki.   :Confused:

----------


## Ruud B

do you want a picture of what can happen when  such a habaki has to take some strain?

----------


## Ruud B

anyway here it is.
happened during a cut, don't know why.
its a furuyama, now a project blade since the ito came lose and habaki is scarp.

----------


## Remy B

> Yes... but now I'm looking for technical explanation about why it's a bad idea...  My guess is that it's some kind of safety issue, but I want to really understand what is involved...


In my opinion, it isnt a good idea to have support only for the munemachi as this _could_ allow the habaki to move forward if the mount come lose over time, kind of hard to explain but it is like asking "why use a bicycle with two wheels" well, simply because this is how they were built.

----------


## Keith Larman

The first mistake is to think that tightness has anything to do with the butting against the machi. The habaki needs to slide into place becoming tight as a result of contact of the ha and mune surfaces *of the nakago* and not due to tightness against the hamachi in particular. A properly formed nakago is the starting point (which many of the low-end production swords don't have). Then it "rests" against the munemachi but only as it becomes tight and snug on the ha and mune first and foremost. So snug, well fit, and not jammed or forced into place. And then correctly formed the hamachi is encapsulated and "floating" inside the habaki. Free from any sort of pressure.  

In a well made habaki the hamachi isn't under stress. The machigane goes in to give the ha side of the nakago a surface to "rest" on. And hopefully the machigane will be just a hair's breath from the hamachi itself or *just* touching. And at that point the habaki should fit tightly elsewhere. Where it really matters. 

Then the munemachi should be in full contact with the mune face of the habaki but it shouldn't be the *only* point of support. As I wrote above it is already tight on the ha and mune. It just "seats" at that point and rests against the munemachi. And if the habaki is correctly made the entire mune surface and surrounding is work hardened, creating a more durable, hard to deform material. Contrary to popular opinion the most common failure point of a well made habaki is not the seam on the ha -- if a sword sees a lot of stress what will usually happen is that the mune will "peel" back or the mune will deform due to the material not being hard enough or most likely both not hard enough and not correctly fit.

So a well made habaki will generally totally surround the hamachi but will not be putting stress or pressure on it. It is in a sense "protected" in the habaki. Remember that the hamachi is one of the most fragile parts of a Japanese style sword. And habakishi have to be very careful about correctly forming their habaki so it doesn't put pressure on it. Otherwise during fitting of the habaki or tapping on of a tsuka one could snap off the hamachi or worse yet cause a crack right at the hamachi. If that crack goes up what you have is a hidden crack that could result in a total catastrophic failure of the sword during a cut -- a blade snapping off at the hamachi (something seen more often with lower end iaito as the material isn't as strong and they often force fit the mass produced habaki to the iaito causing the same problem). 

Most of the habaki I've seen on the "new breed" of production swords so very much loved on the forums have atrociously fit habaki. The irony here is that they often don't look too bad from a shaping standpoint but the guys who make them, fit them, and/or designed the swords clearly don't know what they're doing. They are like caricatures of true habaki. They look like them but they miss the really subtle details that make a habaki functional vs. what can actually be a liability (i.e., making it worse).  

With respect to the notched habaki, well, remember that with mass produced swords you're not looking at individually hand crafted habaki. Heck, I charge 300 now as a starting point for a habaki, more than most of these entire swords now cost. Anyway, some production companies use brass to make their habaki. So depending on the type of brass they can be tough enough. Silver can be too soft unless it is correctly work hardened. Then with production companies they make their habaki in a few varied sizes then try to keep the dimension of the nakago in the habaki-moto consistent to ensure a better fit. You'll notice on some production swords they slot the ha side a bit -- frankly I think this is a good idea given how they do them. This allows them to create an area where the hamachi won't get damaged or "banged up on" during fitting of the tsuka. So you get some of the protection of encapsulation of the ha machi all while making sure it doesn't get put under too much stress. Without the slot if the habaki stops a little short one would hesitate to tap the habaki on any further just in case the hamachi is the "grabbing" point. A good whack with the hammer and you could start a crack and damage the sword. Putting a slot on the hamachi side ensures the hamachi isn't going to "hit" during fitting or use. A good thing.

Now compare that with the habaki pictured in this thread. The shape looks okay, but functionally they're close to worthless if not actually potentially dangerous. On the one Ruud pictured the habaki was obviously causing stress on the hamachi. Very bad thing to do. And I'm sure after a few cuts what happened is things started to rattle terribly. For the ha to distort the habaki that much the habaki was never properly seated (although it probably felt tight). But after some usage the ha deformed the habaki enough to allow it to further slide onto the blade introducing slop to the tsuka. A useless habaki. And hopefully it didn't damage the hamachi.

Now consider the what appears to be common practice of hammering on generic tsuka. Not only are these tsuka incredibly prone to cracking internally (which is bad enough), the very practice of hammering them into place is putting all that stress into the habaki. And if it fits by butting up against the hamachi you're now hammering directly onto the most fragile part of your blade. And a hairline fracture in the blade under the habaki isn't going to be seen under normal circumstances. Your first hint of it could very possible be the blade shattering at the machi during a hard cut. (And as an aside modern made iaito have a tendancy to fail this way with a crack at the hamachi. The habaki are forced into place on an zinc alloy that is no where near as strong as steel. So when these fail they tend to snap right in front of the habaki.)

I've said it before and I'll say it again. These are not toys. There are reasons why there is a lot to learn to do these crafts -- it's not all froofroo artsy fartsy stuff. And much of it is not self-evident -- you need to be taught. But most of these companies are not working with professionals in the sword world. They try to reverse engineer these things not having a clue how they're really used. So you either end up with comically thick, boat anchors that work best as baseball bats or you end up with swords that have all sorts of potential failure points due to poor design and implementation. It isn't that they're intentionally doing things wrong, it is more that they don't know what they don't know... And most of the construction of a good sword is about all those details. The weakest link in a chain...

----------


## Remy B

In short, this means that a production habakis that has no machigane (_like most prod habaki i presume? not certain there_) have no contact with the ha side of the nakago (_the pink zone on this picture respresent the empty space_) and that is what _might_ make it dangerous.

----------


## Benjamin P.

That was a great post!  And exactly the kind of information I was after!  Thank you so much for taking the time to write it!   :Smilie:

----------


## Keith Larman

And I left one thing out I wanted to mention. It was mentioned earlier that cast habaki are "not correct". No, they didn't cast habaki in the olden days, but that doesn't mean you can't cast a habaki and make a strong, durable habaki. There are lesser known ways of hardening some alloys (Precipitation Hardening for example). And there are ways of casting a habaki to a sword then cold working it to finish the fitting process leaving you with a correctly work hardened piece. But again it requires you to know what you're doing and why you're doing it. So without doing it correctly at every step of the way it really doesn't matter how you do it...

----------


## Keith Larman

> In short, this means that a production habakis that has no machigane (_like most prod habaki i presume? not certain there_) have no contact with the ha side of the nakago (_the pink zone on this picture respresent the empty space_) and that is what _might_ make it dangerous.


Honestly I don't know how many have a small machigane and how many don't. I've seen some without. I've seen some with a small "token" machigane. But if it isn't being held properly due to a consistent tightness along the ha and mune then all that force is on the machi of the sword. Something will distort. Most likely the hamachi will deform the habaki at that point and allow it to rotate a bit. That changes the angles and you'll see space on the ha side between the fittings. Things will start to rattle but popping in a new seppa won't really help as the angles have changed too. 

But the reality is that there are all sorts of issues like these on inexpensive swords. That's why they're inexpensive -- you have to cut corners on things like fit and finish. Unfortunately for Japanese swords a great deal of the integrity of the final product depends almost completely on the quality of fit and finish. More time spent, better, more carefully fit parts, more hand fitting, higher grade materials, more time spent making sure everything is right, qualified inspections and quality control... Pretty soon you're selling swords at over $1000 a pop. Because those things all have costs. 

It is funny how perceptions change. I remember the first generation of swords from China way back when. And I was astounded that you could get what we got then for close to $1000. Unfortunately most of the efforts in the production market has been to find more ways to cut corners to get costs down. 

And there is a important theory in information theory about compression that applies here. You can only losslessly compress information so much (zip files, etc.). There is a core amount of "basic" information in the file. At some point you have to start using "lossy" methods if you want to get the file size smaller. That's fine with some things (JPEG for image files, mp3 for audio, etc.). But with other things (your financial records), well, you can't make it smaller without losing things that are critical. There are limits to the compression. The same is true with cutting costs on swords. On the high end there are really nice pieces that are great. But as prices drop there are always sacrifices. And there is some point below which sacrifices in price become essential sacrifices in safety and quality. The very essence of the sword as a tool suffers. I'm not sure where that magic point is, but in surfing these forums I think it is pretty obvious that there are a lot of inexpensive swords that have lost essential parts of what makes a sword a safe, quality tool.

----------


## Ruud B

Keith if you was a women I would kiss you :Big Grin: 
Thanks for the great post.

----------


## Timo Qvintus

Keith, you rock. Seriously, posts like yours are the main reason the existence of this forum is justified.

As rhetorical question, maybe.. but.. I wonder how much it would cost to have a inexpensive, through-hardened production *blade* like Cheness 9260 or KC 5160, fitted properly at the source (or more likely "at the outsource")..  :Ninja Master:

----------


## Timo Qvintus

This may be a world-record-stupid question but.. if a production-habaki is in contact with hamachi and clearly creates a pressure-point there, would it be better to use a needle-file to make a notch in the habaki (a bit like Hanwei-habaki, not necessarily as deep) than let it be?

----------


## Mats Gustavsson

> Keith if you was a women I would kiss you
> Thanks for the great post.



I promise I won’t kiss you Keith, but could I borrow your brain over the weekend? If you don’t need it yourself that is.

PS.  I could kiss your wife though, if my wife would allow that, or your wife for that matter, or yourself perhaps.

----------


## Remy B

Well i own one production blade that i bought before instructing myself and the habaki doesnt have machigane because it is cast silver and the inside is shimed with bamboo pieces... real crappy all around so noone on earth will convince me that casting a habaki is the good way to do it  :Smilie:

----------


## Timo Qvintus

> Well i own one production blade that i bought before instructing myself and the habaki doesnt have machigane because it is cast silver and the inside is shimed with bamboo pieces... real crappy all around so noone on earth will convince me that casting a habaki is the good way to do it


Shimmed habaki, now that's novel!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Keith Larman

> Well i own one production blade that i bought before instructing myself and the habaki doesnt have machigane because it is cast silver and the inside is shimed with bamboo pieces... real crappy all around so noone on earth will convince me that casting a habaki is the good way to do it


I'll grant that the way habaki are usually cast for swords is a terrible way to go. That doesn't mean, however, that it isn't possible to do it well. And I've seen some hand forged habaki that were absolute garbage...

----------


## Jez Hanton

> do you want a picture of what can happen when  such a habaki has to take some strain?


Hi Ruud, it would be nice to know or see any damage that may have occcured to the ha machi. Thanks 

Jez

----------


## Ruud B

Hi Jez,
there is no damage to the ha machi, or any other part of the blade.

----------


## Benjamin P.

The 16th post of this recent thread has a good picture of un-even machi.  

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=87268

----------


## Remy B

Yes, that's a Thaitsuki Nihonto blade's Machis.

----------


## Timo Qvintus

I couldn't resist; check out a prime example of a production habaki. Notice any gaps..?  :Wink:

----------


## Remy B

which maker is this? it looks like the habaki is shimed too.

----------


## Timo Qvintus

it was some fleaBay chinatana retailer, can't remember which one (one of the new ones, IIRC).

----------


## Benjamin P.

Finally, the definitive answer to the Citadel question:

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=88381

#10th post has a good picture by Ruud B.

Not totally unexpected... but still less than what I'd expect in a $1K+ sword.....

----------


## Ruud B

Hello Benjamin,
can you explain what you expect?
drawing would be real nice, thanks.

----------


## Benjamin P.

Ruud, here is a picture of what I think is the "ideal"... in terms of the machis being even and parallel.



On top is a nihonto and on bottom is your Citadel.

----------


## David Henderson

The facts of the matter are simple in that most of us do not and cannot own Nohinto, so we get production work, but so long as the quality of the material is good and the fit is tight all around with no gaps there is simply nothing to go wrong barring a person dose not abuse the weapon. For myself  from what I have seen and herd there is simply nothing wrong at all with offset machi so long as the Habaki fit is true. No worries here :Smilie:  just get as much info as possible about the company that produces the weapon and hopefully we don't get burned.[been there before ] I would dearly love to own a beautiful nohinto or very expensive custom job but until my ship comes in I will have to stick with very good Chen, Citadel, or what have you. Could not stand it any more had to put my two cents in.

----------


## Remy B

For the price you pay for these high end production blade, i would personnaly expect to have even machi with a proprely fitted habaki since this is THE part that make the blade hold together.

----------


## David Henderson

So long as the fittings of said Citadel sword or any other brand are done with proper consideration to fit and finish in my humble opinion and that's all it is, even with an uneven machi the sword is not going to fail on you, why should it, if the stresses are equal all around there is no problem, if that type of design bothers you just don't buy the product its that simple. Historically correct no, but I think a good product.

----------


## Benjamin P.

> So long as the fittings of said Citadel sword or any other brand are done with *proper consideration to fit and finish* in my humble opinion and that's all it is, even with an uneven machi the sword is not going to fail on you, why should it, if the stresses are equal all around there is no problem, if that type of design bothers you just don't buy the product its that simple. Historically correct no, but I think a good product.


David, thanks for your posts.  But have you read through all the posts on the first page?  If not, please read in particular posts #19~#22.  Especially the thorough explanation by Keith Larman about just WHY that kind of unevenness can be potentially dangerous.  It is NOT just a matter of preference and it's certainly NOT just a pedantic concern with historicity.  I'm also still just learning about this stuff and won't pretend to know more than I actually do.  But when real professionals like Keith take the time from their busy schedule to write a post like that, I tend to quiet down and listen hard to what's being said.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion about what you think is a good product (overall) or not.  People far more knowledgeable than I am on this forum have already commented that Citadel makes a good product (again, overall).  And I'm not trying to debate that at all, although I think for the kind of price tag on Citadel swords, the makers should definitely pay better attention to those kinds of details.  And yeah, until they do, I probably won't buy a Citadel.  But that's not what this thread is about...  this thread is about what is both CORRECT and SAFE when it comes to habaki and machi.  In other words, what you refer to as "proper attention to fit and finish" definitely has the above in mind as a part of it.  Remy knows a TON more about swords than I do, and he's also definitely right that it is THE part that holds the entire sword together.

----------


## David Henderson

The Hibaki failing potentially dangerous I don't think so, when that happens and it usually is due to the incompetence of the sword owner trying to chop trees down, its a matter of the blade dropping like a limp you no what and the sword becoming unusable, the sword dose not fly apart from the handle unless the owner has forgotten to put that wee little peg back in place. I have seen the stupid things that happen with swords and nine times out of ten when bad things happen its always through stupidity and lack of training. You have your opinion and I have mine, I don't think ether of us is going to change, so ill bid you good night and good cutting, its been fun.

----------


## Tsugio Kawakami

I have handled a blade with a failed habaki, and it DOES fall apart. Fuchi and tsuba come loose, then the ito. It may not come apart from the tsuka, but it does bad enough. Awful feedback from cuts, too. Should the sword go limp like a "you know what", then that is also a problem with the tsuka. It shouldn't have been cut with like that in the first place. The habaki is an indispensible player in keeping the whole unit as one.

Furthermore, I've seen the shoddiest habaki hold up through sword abuse (IE a certain plastic habaki job). I have seen far more swords lost to edge damage, split tsuka, or simple snaps than habaki problems. Vice versa, I've seen great habaki split during normal heavy cutting exercises by highly skilled swordsmen. You can't say it's all human, or all product error.

Also, (and this may have been brought up already. I've been reading through this thread over a few days, all broken up. Sorry if it has.) isn't the unparallel machi deal all part of cost reduction while maintaining proper aesthetics? The hamachi being on top of the habaki would still give the look of an encased hamachi, but would be a lot easier to produce.

----------


## Remy B

Pssst Benjamin, i dont know *this* much about swords  :Stick Out Tongue:  but i think that i have red somewhere in my books that the habaki is the "heart" of the sword and this is probably why its the only part of the koshirae that never leave the blade even when it goes in its shirasaya.

Anyways, Even machi shouldnt be a matter of taste but of safety and i honestly do not understand why most people just shrug it off as a cosmetic issue... when it clearly isnt. 
The reasons has been stated on numerous occasion in the previous posts.

----------


## David Henderson

> I have handled a blade with a failed habaki, and it DOES fall apart. Fuchi and tsuba come loose, then the ito. It may not come apart from the tsuka, but it does bad enough. Awful feedback from cuts, too. Should the sword go limp like a "you know what", then that is also a problem with the tsuka. It shouldn't have been cut with like that in the first place. The habaki is an indispensible player in keeping the whole unit as one.
> 
> Furthermore, I've seen the shoddiest habaki hold up through sword abuse (IE a certain plastic habaki job). I have seen far more swords lost to edge damage, split tsuka, or simple snaps than habaki problems. Vice versa, I've seen great habaki split during normal heavy cutting exercises by highly skilled swordsmen. You can't say it's all human, or all product error.
> 
> Also, (and this may have been brought up already. I've been reading through this thread over a few days, all broken up. Sorry if it has.) isn't the unparalleled machi deal all part of cost reduction while maintaining proper aesthetics? The hamachi being on top of the habaki would still give the look of an encased hamachi, but would be a lot easier to produce.


Sorry, but all that I was trying to get across is that the blade dose not in itself go flying across the room but what happens is that the sword is rendered useless, granted you could let go of it because of bad vibration, but like you say it can happen with any sword at any given time, but to say its because its not made in the true Nohinto style is very wrong because they can fail to, that I have seen happen at a demonstration outside Cobe city in 1970. Just remember there is the human factor and metal fatigue, all that I am trying to get across is that It is not necessarily a design flaw but swords themselves. Stuff Happens. If you want to talk about a real dangerous situation, you will find it in swords that are made far to hard and brittle, when a third of the blade goes flying because you hit something such as a wooden dowel accidentally, that is scary.[Happened to me many years ago, but no Injuries thank god.] Most anything man made can and dose go wrong at one time or another, I always keep this in mind, but I personally am not going to loose any sleep over it. As far as the design of the Habaki goes I will leave that to the Smiths.

----------


## Remy B

From MartialArtSword.com, it seems they have uneven machis aswell.

_Dear Remy,
Yes, our blade has similar look to the picture you provided.
So, I guess it is uneven.

Thank you.
Regards,Stephan


Greetings,
I would like to know if your blades have even or uneven MuneMachi and  HaMachi.
Exemple of uneven machis: http://i19.tinypic.com/8ac2u5l.jpg

Thanks for your time.
 Remy B_

----------


## Ruud B

I still think you can fit a habaki proper even if the machi are uneven.
example the citadel habaki is filled at the bottom, this filling slopes to the ha machi, the fit is very tight.
So many things are done different on a modern production katana, some are good others are not so good, guess it all comes done to the skill of the people making them and the quality control at the end.
What production blade has the real shape and feel of a nihonto??

----------


## KevinT

I'd like to know how many production companies actually turn out a hamachi hard enough to suffer the potential damage Keith describes.

I'd be surprised to hear they were not all tempered way back from the oft assumed 60. steel is far less likely to crack and chip at 52rhc (or is it 42 :Smilie: ) than 62RHC

I reworked one low ender, reusing the habaki- split the habaki-ha a short ways with a coping saw, moved the munemachi. When I tried to tighten the habaki around the blade with a hammer, the ha was deformed- not chipped or cracked- bent. One might expect the brass to form around harder steel; it was more the other way around.

Another sword i have from the Philippines in 5160 is only hard at the monouchi

----------


## Ruud B

I did some more research,

it seems that koto era nihonto do have more oneven machi then even.
http://www.ricecracker.com/inventory...ifusa_scan.jpg

http://www.ricecracker.com/inventory...fusa_blade.jpg

http://www.nihonto.ca/tsukamoto-okimasa/sugata-l.jpg

----------


## Tsugio Kawakami

> I did some more research,
> 
> it seems that koto era nihonto do have more oneven machi then even.
> http://www.ricecracker.com/inventory...ifusa_scan.jpg
> 
> http://www.ricecracker.com/inventory...fusa_blade.jpg
> 
> http://www.nihonto.ca/tsukamoto-okimasa/sugata-l.jpg


The last is not all that offset, but the first two are. Is it possible that this happened in the shortening process, and was not innitially supposed to be that way? I would imagine that shortening the ha would be much easier than shortening the mune due to the amount of metal there. It would be much easier to leave the mune longer and just build a habaki around that.

----------


## Benjamin P.

> The last is not all that offset, but the first two are. Is it possible that this happened in the shortening process, and was not innitially supposed to be that way? I would imagine that shortening the ha would be much easier than shortening the mune due to the amount of metal there. It would be much easier to leave the mune longer and just build a habaki around that.


Sounds like a reasonable conjecture to me.  I would be interested to know how the habaki were constructed to accomodate the uneven machi of these swords.  

Personally, my guess is that those habaki took the above uneven-ness into consideration and had a deeper channel for the mune-machi so that it could still protect the fragile ha-machi "inside" the habaki rather than just having it butt up against it (like in modern production versions).

If the swords like in the pictures above were shortened at some point like Tsugio is suggesting, then the relatively thicker ubu-ha (if there were any) would be gone already, making the protection of the ha-machi even more important.

----------


## Remy B

Thats only two swords (first two links are of the same sword), and one of them doesnt look like it ended up this way intentionaly, cant say that they both look koto either.. im no expert but it doesnt have the usual koto feel to it. 

At any rate, i personnaly wouldnt think that two exemples would make uneven machis "the norm" in nihontos or making it acceptable, imho.

----------


## David Henderson

Guys if the Habaki is Constructed in a manner that makes it have gaps that make it work like a fulcrum you are going to have problems in that you will start to get metal fatigue and eventually fracture in said habaki, weather its nohinto or production katanas, also remember that the Japanese also had an infrastructure of people around to maintain these swords right up to WW2 because they were so important to them and because things went wrong.

----------


## Benjamin P.

> Guys if the Habaki is Constructed in a manner that makes it have gaps that make it work like a fulcrum you are going to have problems in that you will start to get metal fatigue and eventually fracture in said habaki, weather its nohinto or production katanas, also remember that the Japanese also had an infrastructure of people around to maintain these swords right up to WW2 because they were so important to them and because things went wrong.


David, first... *_nihon-to_*, not nohinto.

Given enough time and use, or even sitting on a shelf, _all things_ require periodic maintenance, especially those parts with degradable or even bio-degradable parts.

Regarding what is relatively safe or unsafe, I'll defer to the prevailing opinions and wisdom of those professionals and historians who have more experience and knowledge in these matters.  But the bottomline, at least for me, is that modern production habaki construction methods are a cost and time-saving measure, whereas the traditional construction method is not arbitrarily judged to be "good" just by the virtue of the fact that it is "traditional", but rather because it is what worked and worked best in real-life conditions for people who had to use it as a tool for survival and as  a highly functional piece of art, which gradually evolved over centuries with that _functionality_ and _durability_ in mind.  It is not because "it doesn't matter" or because "it's just as good."

But if you want to believe that uneven machi and/or the ha-machi resting flush against copper or brass habaki is an excellent idea or is otherwise not even worth considering, then you are of course entitled to that opinion.

----------


## David Henderson

> David, first... *_nihon-to_*, not nohinto.
> 
> Given enough time and use, or even sitting on a shelf, _all things_ require periodic maintenance, especially those parts with degradable or even bio-degradable parts.
> 
> Regarding what is relatively safe or unsafe, I'll defer to the prevailing opinions and wisdom of those professionals and historians who have more experience and knowledge in these matters.  But the bottomline, at least for me, is that modern production habaki construction methods are a cost and time-saving measure, whereas the traditional construction method is not arbitrarily judged to be "good" just by the virtue of the fact that it is "traditional", but rather because it is what worked and worked best in real-life conditions for people who had to use it as a tool for survival and as  a highly functional piece of art, which gradually evolved over centuries with that _functionality_ and _durability_ in mind.  It is not because "it doesn't matter" or because "it's just as good."
> 
> But if you want to believe that uneven machi and/or the ha-machi resting flush against copper or brass habaki is an excellent idea or is otherwise not even worth considering, then you are of course entitled to that opinion.


I bow to the obvious your argument is sound. :Smilie:

----------


## Timo Qvintus

Umm.. why should the machi be even? Did I miss a post somewhere?

----------


## Remy B

It seem like you missed two pages of posts, Timo! XD

----------


## Tsugio Kawakami

Lol. Oh, I know that they are the same sword. I meant the first two pictures. I suppose I should have clarified.

Anyhoo, I think that it is not so much about the machi being uneven...it is more about the hamachi being placed too far forward on modern production blades, leaving them vulnerable as they sit atop the habaki. The habaki technically could be worked around having uneven machi by making the hollow for the munemachi longer, thus allowing more material for protecting the hamachi, but then that would use up time, resources, and effort for a part so many see an unimportant anymore. I am not saying that it is unimportant, but it is how so many today seem to feel. I personally believe it to be very important.

Now, could the fact that these modern made blades are not put through the same horror the old ones were affect the need to have a covered hamachi? On older blades, used in actual combat, one can not be too sure where contact may be placed on their blade. I feel that they were used much more roughly than todays simply due to the turbulent times and the fact that swords were _the_ weapon. Anymore, with firearms being at the forefront of todays warfare, swords have taken the backseat and are used for recreation, sport, art, or traditional training. I doubt any of these (aside from the ones belonging to kids who chop at trees) would be put through anything like the old blades were, thus making it "safer" for the blades themselves. Bokuto or shinai are used in paired training, so the hamachi on live blades would be in no serious danger.

Have I hit anything there?

----------


## Timo Qvintus

> It seem like you missed two pages of posts, Timo! XD


From what I've read the discussion has mainly been on correct/incorrect habaki construction. I've missed any reason(s) why uneven machi would be undesirable, aesthetics non withstanding.

----------


## Remy B

I will simply quote Benjamin' post which i think was most accurate and excellent, i share his opinion.



> But the bottomline, at least for me, is that modern production habaki construction methods are a cost and time-saving measure, whereas the traditional construction method is not arbitrarily judged to be "good" just by the virtue of the fact that it is "traditional", but rather because it is what worked and worked best in real-life conditions for people who had to use it as a tool for survival and as  a highly functional piece of art, which gradually evolved over centuries with that _functionality_ and _durability_ in mind.  It is not because "it doesn't matter" or because "it's just as good."
> 
> But if you want to believe that uneven machi and/or the ha-machi resting flush against copper or brass habaki is an excellent idea or is otherwise not even worth considering, then you are of course entitled to that opinion.

----------


## David Henderson

I think what might be bothering to some people here is the thought that because the swords that they own are production swords this thred puts them in a bad light, well it should not, for the simple fact that there are many thousands of these swords out  there and its not that they can not fail, but I put it to you that the failure rate simply is not that much to worry about, if it was, why has the sword community not gone nuts over the fact that their favorite Katana keep failing on them. For myself I  have been using production blades since 1968, I'm pushing 60 years of age now and I can honestly tell you that the only time that I have come close to an habaki failure is when a cheaply built handle started to shift from the tang, so I threw the pice of junk out.You pay for what you get, get the best info about the product your after and go from there. A few weeks ago I bought an Citadel Katana from SOL it to has an offset of  aprox 2/16 of an inch but the fit of the sword is exceptional in all respects for me, no its not perfect but will do for me. Perhaps one day the production people will look into this but until then I will just have to make do. Good debate tho  :Smilie:

----------


## Stephan A.

> From MartialArtSword.com, it seems they have uneven machis aswell.
> 
> _Dear Remy,
> Yes, our blade has similar look to the picture you provided.
> So, I guess it is uneven.
> 
> Thank you.
> Regards,Stephan
> 
> ...



Hi Remy,

I did reply the above quote indeed, but I forgot that we changed to even munemachi last year. The katanas with elliptical habaki has uneven munemachi (old models) and the ones with square habaki has even munemachi (new models).

Thanks,
Stephan

----------


## Travis Nicko

Wow...handmade, fitted tsuka, individual heat treatment AND properly fit habaki?! If there is a model with the ever-elusive geometric change @ the yokote I think I know what my next purchase will be! :EEK!:

----------


## Stephan A.

Hmm....our blades are bit on thinner side and it's bit hard to see the angle change at the yokote very clearly. Saya fits really well though =P

----------


## Remy B

Here is a photo of my Bugei Bamboo katana, for those that might be interested.


Cast brass habaki with filed slot for hamachi, very clean cut.

----------


## Benjamin P.

> Hi Remy,
> 
> I did reply the above quote indeed, but I forgot that we changed to even munemachi last year. The katanas with elliptical habaki has uneven munemachi (old models) and the ones with square habaki has even munemachi (new models).
> 
> Thanks,
> Stephan


I should have followed up on this earlier, but it skipped my mind.

Stephan, I don't know how often you check the forums... but do your new square habaki have the mune-machi and ha-machi protected inside the habaki or do they both just rest on top of the habaki?  If the former, you'll probably be hearing from me very soon for a custom order, bad economy or no...  :Smilie:

----------

