# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  British infantry swords, m. 1796 and m. 1803

## T. Donoho

I would like to start a thread regarding British m. 1796 infantry officer's sword and m. 1803 infantry officer's saber as used during the Napoleonic conflicts--just a thread to share various personal observations or insights from other sources including, construction, cutlers, retailing, merits/problems of the two models, preferences of officers, etc.  Please do join in.  Thanks much.  :Smilie:

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## T. Donoho

As to flank officers swords, was it an accepted variation to mount these flank (widely curved) blades to m. 1803 hilts?  It doesn't seem as if it would be effective--was it just for show?

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## G.J.West

My favorite sword models! But historically other Brit patterns were used too. 
This raises the question for many in my home town. Which sword pattern did the Brits use 06 June 1813 Battle of Stoney Creek? Kings 8th, the 49 & 41 Foot,  Royal Artillery, a few militia, Officers and Sgts.

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## H. F. Daniels

> As to flank officers swords, was it an accepted variation to mount these flank (widely curved) blades to m. 1803 hilts?  It doesn't seem as if it would be effective--was it just for show?



I've seen several 1803 hilts on some highly curved blades....but none as extreme as the flank officer's "scimitar" blade at the top of this grouping.   The British Army Museum has commented on this specific sword as being a fashionable "accessory" for Militia level officers after the Egyptian Campaign in 1801.  I doubt it could be used as a scythe without cutting your leg or thigh in gruesome fashion. :Wink: 

The regular P1803 beneath this flank sword shows the variation in a practical curve vs an amusing discussion item with the ladies at the local lord's ball for his militia cohorts!

The P1803 is truly a classic and at least an impressive weapon to look at, if not try to use due to unwieldiness - the P 1796 Cavalry Officer's version below the 1803 has the sizzle and swish visually and in the hand!

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## morgan butler

What a great thread! I'm always glad to discuss 18th century swords, which seems to have become a topic that has dwindled on this site in the last few years. 

I ended up with a rather nice collection of 1796 British Infantry Swords, though (as often happens with collectors) I didn't set out to do so. I also have some nice variation of this model. Two items for discussion concerning this classic Officer of the Line straight sword that I would like to talk about are:
1) The variations of blade on this model. Even though an officer was expected to carry this sword when leading troops, did he expect to really fight with it, or use it more as a rallying and signaling device for his men?
2) This pattern was originally created by the Prussians and later adopted by the British. The British used this pattern prior to 1796. (I wonder if it was encountered by the British when they allied with the Prussians during the 7 years war?) I would love to see some Prussian examples of this pattern (I have one pic of such a sword) and also would love to find examples of Pre-96 British versions of this sword. Also how to spot or identify a British Pre-96 version. (Since they may have been using them from the 1750's on.)

P.S. I have one interesting British Lt. Infantry Officer Sabre that I have some difficulty dating but is of the Napoleonic Period. 

Looking forward to chatting more about these classic swords,
Morgan

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## morgan butler

Here is a pic of a Prussian Infantry Officer Sword. Very clearly the model of the British version. There is another pic of one floating around on this site but I can't find it. It has the fixed butterfly guard with the acanthus leaves and a brass wire grip in a compact hilt. The blade is the single edged spadroon variety with the brass plug in the forte that says "Potsdam". Very nice looking, maybe someone else will be able to recall it and locate it.

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## H. F. Daniels

> What a great thread! I'm always glad to discuss 18th century swords, which seems to have become a topic that has dwindled on this site in the last few years. 
> 
> .............also would love to find examples of Pre-96 British versions of this sword. Also how to spot or identify a British Pre-96 version. (Since they may have been using them from the 1750's on.)
> 
> Looking forward to chatting more about these classic swords,
> Morgan


Hi Morgan, the spadroon in the pics below, to my best guess, is a 1780's or so officer's weapon.  The spadroon blade is the same as the 1796.  The sword has a bone grip, with crinkle guard, inset heart motif and etched Royal crest and motto.  

I remember reading that earlier regimental sword styles were at the discretion of the Colonel, and maybe this sword is of the pre-96 period?  

Would appreciate any better insights on age of this example!

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## Michael Callaghan

The 1803 pattern curved blade was all about show. Light infantry officers liked to dress a bit like light cavalry officers, so we have caved blades and in some cases they even wear hussar type pelisse. I have two 1803 swords, one with a grenade device on the guard denoting that it belonged to an officer in the grenader company. The second as the very curved blade as per the picture from the grouping. useless for any fighting and so very easy to take an eye out. michael

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## morgan butler

Hello H.F.,

Yes, a very nice Spadroon with scalloped (?) loop guard. In the 1786 Brit. Infantry Officer Sword Pattern, only the blade was specified. A spadroon blade to be exact. Every thing else was up to the wearer/buyer or as you say whoever "raised" the regiment. The Royal Crest on your blade still has Fluer De Lie's on it, so I believe that makes it Pre- 1801. Always nice! 
@Michael, 
My thought on the Light Infantry Swords is, besides the fact of wanting an "elite" status sword (which it was) is that when sprinting over hill and dale and irregular ground, a shorter, more curved sword is less likely to trip up your legs whilst in the scabbard. A great example being Richard Sharp of story and T.V.  I can't imagine that a soldier as salty as Sharpe wouldn't snap to the fact that  a giant HC sword  was going to beat hell out of his leg every day and leave a very large and painful bruise while he marched about. I'm sure he would've traded it in for a different sword. 
However for me, the "thrust" of this thread was to discuss the 1796 Pattern, which was a rather large variation of the smallsword hilt, but without the pas de an's.  In retrospect I rather like the 96 pattern. As has been pointed out before, it really is just a militarized version of the smallsword. Basically it is the English version of the Epee' Soldat. Another militarized smallsword used by the French Officers in the 18th century. Both of them are designed to be used with a fencing technique. The Spadroon is just a bit less obvious because of it's single edged profile. The military smallsword really equates to another type of sword (in my opinion), the Transitional Rapier. The Trans-Rapier is another type of sword that I really fancy. The Epee Soldat and the Spadroon (especially the 96) is just a shorter and more compact version. 
I think the many complaints about the 96 stem from the fact that it really was an 18th century sword being used in a 19th century war, where even officers are carrying big sabre's. Also I find there are not any recorded complaints about it prior to the Napoleonic Wars, even though it was used by army field officers for about 50 years. 
 I think the 1796 Spadroon would have made a fantastic civilians traveling weapon were it not for the fact that civilians had pretty much stopped wearing swords on the city streets and country roads for some time by it's introduction. Here is a couple pics, one of my British Lt. Infantry Sword and other of a Pre-1801, 1796 Pattern. 
I would like to see if anyone can date the sabre. Also I would like to exhibit this 96 variation. It has a 31 inch doubled edged blade with motto's and Cypher. The hilt is rather long. Question: Could this only be for dress or could an officer have worn it in the field?

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## H. F. Daniels

> The 1803 pattern curved blade was all about show. Light infantry officers liked to dress a bit like light cavalry officers, so we have caved blades and in some cases they even wear hussar type pelisse.


By coincidence Michael, per your comment on the lights officers wearing a hussar style pelisse, the scimitar-curve saber at top in my grouping pic has a very detailed etching of an officer decked out in such a pelisse and a tall cap similar to the 95th Rifles style. He is also holding an extreme curve saber.

The attached pic of the Rifles officer is exactly how the officer in the etching on my sword is attired.

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## morgan butler

That makes sense. Napoleon had raised the opinion and status of Light Infantry Tactics. Most of the light infantry officer swords I have seen have 28 to 30 inch blades on them. Ideal for moving quickly over rough ground and for close in fighting. The straight sword of the line was still for flourishing and letting troops know where there officer was to rally around.

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## Michael Callaghan

hi, the uniform of officers of the 95th and the 60th did list a pelisse as part of their uniform. But officers from line regiment no matter if they where part of the regiments light company or not should never have as part of their uniform the pelisse. It was just that wellington took little interest in how his men looked that officers got to wear non reg items of uniform. As to Morgans sabre, I think it more likely to be a fighting weapon then dress. I have a number of plain sabres of the napoleonic period fitted with good german blades but no blue and gold to be seen. more them like they cost less, so not to much of a worry if lost etc. michael

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## morgan butler

Hello Michael,
Didn't officers of the line carry the 96 infantry sword? What/who decided whether officers carried the 1803 or the 1796 infantry swords?
As to my sabre pics , it was definitely a fighting weapon, the type of swords I like most. I don't know that it was cheaper though. That is a very high quality blade with 3 fullers to it. The little button on the top of the knuckle guard seems individual as well. 
My question on whether dress or battle was directed at the photo's of the 1796 that I posted. Often I find the line is very blurry when it comes to the 1796 spadroon. Almost as if the powers that be were mere interested in the appearance of the hilt than the the type of blade that was mounted on it. I do have a couple of "Fighting" 1796's that I will post soon. Both are probably pre-1790s and may be as old as the 1760's!

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## Michael Callaghan

In answer, the 95th was an elite regiment and many would say the first regiment of the modern british army. Officers had all light infantry status and did not carry the 1796 pattern line infantry company sword.The only officers of the line regiments to carry the 1796 sword was the centre company officers. Officers of the grendier and light companys would have the 1803 sword. In real life I think you would of found that officers with smaller wallets would of taken into battle older blades, maybe until after the first battle when fallen officers weapons etc would go to auction within the regiment. I have a spadroon with an interesting  inscription in latin, it reads. The horrors that I have seen and will do ". I think it fair to say that there would of been officers who would of still owned the spadroon and taken it into the field at the start of the napoleonic wars, but not later. michael

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## morgan butler

I once had the pleasure of hefting a pair of 03 sabres. I found they had a nice balance and weight, but probably would have been better to wield on horse back.
Here is a fighting model of the 1796 Infantry Officer sword. It it probably prior to 96. A most unusual piece. Note the huge (for the time) pommel and rear quillion. This was definately made for combat. The blade is just over 31 inches and 1.5 inches at the forte. weighs about 1.75 pds. Also the butterfly guard is thicker than normal as well and without the acanthus leaves. A great fighting sword with a  wonderful balance and heft. The grip is shagreen (ray-skin) This is not a standard 96 by any means and I don't think the officer who had it made did so just for the pleasure of a heavy sword banging on his hip. I have seen other 96's with a double edged blade but always on a standard hilt. This one's hilt is of a different scale and weight.  I've always been pleased with this find. I wonder if it could be dated back to the 7 Years War.....

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## T. Donoho

Nice sword.  Keep them coming.  Thanks for keeping this thread rolling.

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## Norman McCormick

Hi,
   Here's a 1796 Sergeant's sword to add to the mix. Weight just shy of 1lb 8oz, overall length 35 3/4 inches, blade length 29 inches, blade width 1 3/16 inches and blade thickness a shade under 3/8 inches.
Regards,
Norman.

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## Alex Smith

Hi all;  I actually posted a new thread with a query regarding a 1796pattern light cavalry sabre I have acquired, and then found this thread, which seems to exactly hit the mark, so I paste my original query below, and post photos, in the hope someone might be able to shed light....

Begins;

New to sword collecting; first post. 

I have acquired a beat up 1796 LC pattern sabre that is in need of some minor repair at the hilt, and I have a good blacksmith prepared to make the repair. Basically, the hilt tang seal has gone, and this particular model is without the rivet struck through the hilt that I see on many examples, so without the tang seal, it just disassembles itself! There are no makers marks to the blade visible, though there is a patina of rust over the whole blade which may be obscuring proof marks if any. 

However, the disintegration of the hilt assembly has revealed some letters and marks printed on the tang, and I am curious as to whether anyone could identify these. When we make the repair obviously these marks will be obscured for the long term once more, so I should like to attempt the identification before all is buried once more. All the components to the hilt appear to be original; Also, what does it mean that this particular example is missing the rivet through the handle and tang?

As far as the marks are concerned I think I perceive a J, inverted, a G, and then three Rs. On the reverse of the tang is a star punch.

We intend to make a seamless weld to the pommel and tang tip, and get the whole lot rubbed off nicely with beeswax; though don't ask me too much technical stuff, I am relying on Wayne the Welder.

Looking forward to some answers all.

Rgds

Alex

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## morgan butler

Actually Alex, this thread is about the 76 _infantry_  sword, not the cavalry sabre.

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## morgan butler

"Hi,
Here's a 1796 Sergeant's sword to add to the mix. Weight just shy of 1lb 8oz, overall length 35 3/4 inches, blade length 29 inches, blade width 1 3/16 inches and blade thickness a shade under 3/8 inches.
Regards,
Norman. "
You're a lucky devil to have gotten one with the scabbard Norman! I missed out on getting one with a complete scabbard last year because I was short on funds. Drat!
I have really developed a fondness for the Sgt's Spadroon. It's a very handsome, classical and no nonsense side arm. It is eminently suitable for a fencing style yet can be used to defend against somewhat heavier weapons than just against another small sword. I have a similar spadroon, though not technically a Sgt's sword because it has acanthus leaves on the guard. Instead of foil it has the copper wire. The blade is also about 29 inches as is Norman's. The rear quillion is sort of shapeless however due to repairs on it, but I still am very fond of it and it handles very well when I do tai-chi with it. And the Sgt's model should definitely be included in a discussion about the 96 Spadroon.  Really, this is an 18 century sword we're talking about, though it is most well known for a 19th cen. war that it was used in. 
The 1796 seems to me to be a germanic/english verision of the French Epee' Soldat. I'm sure that was the type of sword that the "slim back-sword/spadroon" was envisioned going up against. I'll include some pics of a French 18th cen NCO sword for comparison.
However the 1796 was in use long before this designation and in various forms from fancy to very plain. (The earlier, the plainer.) I almost wish we could come up with a better name for it. Hmm.

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## Alex Smith

Yes, just realised Morgan, sorry!

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## Michael Callaghan

hi chaps, here are pics of two 1803 swords from my collection. I hope that you can see that within the same pattern there are a number of differences from how fine the lions head is worked to the leather or fishskin used for the grip. michael

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## Tomas Eriksson

Hi, very interesting thread! Perhaps my latest sword could be of interest here?  
I recently found what I think is a 1796 infantry sergeants sword at an auction in Sweden. 
It has a very plain, brass hilt and blade without any decorations, the blade is single edged 
and 29" in length, the total length is 35 1/4", the dark brown wooden grip has lost its wire,
but there is something strange about the wire ends that still stick out a fraction of a milimetre 
from two holes at the end of the grip, it is twisted brass wire in both holes.
From what I´ve read in this forum and elsewhere, I expected that it should have been copper wire.
I would like to replace the wire to the grip, but I´m not sure what wire to use, brass or copper?
Was there ever a 1796 sergeants sword with brass wire wrapped grip? 
Or could it be some later repair/refurbishing?
The wire is very firmly anchored by the way, it is not simply glued in a hole in the grip 
as usual in restorations.

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## morgan butler

Congrats Tomas,
That pattern was originally Prussian in origin and it became popular with the British, maybe during the 7 Years War when Prussia and England were allies. Many officers used the undecorated version of this sword in the 18th century, so it doesn't necessarily have to be a NCO sword. While uncommon, I have seen a pic of a 96 infantry sword with a brass wire grip, probably an officers. I'll see if I can find it.

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## Richard Dellar

Nice to see this thread resurrected. Of course, there were a number of regimental patterns in this period as well - do they qualify for inclusion here? If so, here are three to get things going:

1 - 23rd Royal Welsh Fusiliers c. 1809
2 - 23rd Royal Welsh Fusiliers c. 1803
3 - 2nd (Queen's Royal) Regiment of Foot c. 1819

Richard

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## morgan butler

Hello Richard,
I really like the hilts on them! I think I've seen pics of one of them before somewhere. They almost look as if they have a middle eastern influence to them. What do they handle like?

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## E.B. Erickson

eBay 221389713163 is the twin to the Royal Welsh Fusiliers in Richard's post. Same sword perhaps? Even the pitting and wear looks similar!

--ElJay

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## Richard Dellar

> eBay 221389713163 is the twin to the Royal Welsh Fusiliers in Richard's post. Same sword perhaps? Even the pitting and wear looks similar!
> 
> --ElJay


ElJay,

Yes, its the same sword. I sold all three to a well-known dealer last summer. You can also find the other two on the internet if you search hard enough.

Richard

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## morgan butler

They are fine swords, more likely the kind that the fiction character Richard Sharp would've carried rather than a thigh-slapping Heavy Calvary sword in a metal scabbard. Richard, what kind of balance did they have? Did they seem practical for combat?

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## Richard Dellar

> They are fine swords, more likely the kind that the fiction character Richard Sharp would've carried rather than a thigh-slapping Heavy Calvary sword in a metal scabbard. Richard, what kind of balance did they have? Did they seem practical for combat?


Morgan

Well I'm not a swordsman so I can't really make a proper judgment on this other than to say that the two RWF swords felt a bit like light cavalry sabres but the 2nd Queen's West Surrey sword was very blade heavy.

Richard

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## morgan butler

Tomas, 
Here are some pics of 96 Spadroons with brass wire grips.

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## Tomas Eriksson

Hello Morgan, 
Thanks for this interesting information. I´ve decided to use twisted brass wire for the restoration. 
Do you remember by the way if the winding had the herring bone pattern, 
or if the wisted wires were twisted in the same direction?
/Tomas

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## Tomas Eriksson

Hello again Morgan,
How strange, the moment I sent my last replay to you, your post with the pictures of the brass wire spadroons popped up.
Thank you very much!
/Tomas

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## morgan butler

Your welcome! Are you going to with brass or copper wire?

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## Tomas Eriksson

I will use brass wire, however, it looks like the wire on my grip is not as thin as in your pictures, I have got myself a USB microscope to try to measure the wire diameter and see the twist direction, since not enough wire protrudes to use a calliper on.

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## morgan butler

I will be interested to see the result. How do you afix wire to the grip without taking it off the sword?

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## Tomas Eriksson

Here are some pics of the remains of the original wrapping wires seen through a microscope.
The wire diameter is about 0.50mm or 24AWG. 
Since the new wire wrapping is not intended to be of battle quality, 
I´ll try to anchor the wire ends by inserting them as far as I can into the wire holes 
in the wooden grip, and then wedge them there with "tooth picks" and a little glue.
Fortunately there is a bit of play between the wooden grip and the brass parts which makes the 
holes accessible. When the wire is in place, I´ll tighten the hilt and thus hide the holes. 
I Just checked the local hobby shops net page by the way, and they have soft 24AWG brass wire.
I´m looking forward to some experimenting this weekend, trying to find a suitable 
"twists per inch" value for the twisted wires.



/Tomas E

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## morgan butler

Impressive!

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## morgan butler

By the way I thought I would mention (even though it takes us down a steep and slippery slope) how much in general I have come to love the infantry officer/nco straight sword of the  18th/early 19th century. I think it's what I would most like to collect. They are all very similar, with blades about 27 to 31 inches, and have a militarized (large) small-swordish hilt. Yet there so much diversity as well, from light duty versions to full on combat models.

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## morgan butler

another nice one...Boatshell guard and typical copper grip. Wish I had a better pic of the blade. Seem doubledged. Nice officer sword.
http://p2.la-img.com/1841/44449/19727711_3_l.jpg

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## morgan butler

> Here are some pics of the remains of the original wrapping wires seen through a microscope.
> The wire diameter is about 0.50mm or 24AWG. 
> Since the new wire wrapping is not intended to be of battle quality, 
> I´ll try to anchor the wire ends by inserting them as far as I can into the wire holes 
> in the wooden grip, and then wedge them there with "tooth picks" and a little glue.
> Fortunately there is a bit of play between the wooden grip and the brass parts which makes the 
> holes accessible. When the wire is in place, I´ll tighten the hilt and thus hide the holes. 
> I Just checked the local hobby shops net page by the way, and they have soft 24AWG brass wire.
> I´m looking forward to some experimenting this weekend, trying to find a suitable 
> ...



Tomas,
Did you ever finish the brass wire wrapping on your 96 Spadroon?

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## T. Donoho

Nice thread--sorry I missed it earlier.  These are nice swords with small-sword type hilts.  For wrapping work, you might consider a pure copper wire as it is easier to work with (doesn't spring back while wrapping) and looks nice for grips with fine wire wrapping.  Those heavy wire wraps look nice too if you can manage it.  That's a nice one with the double quillon and urn form pommel.  Those heavier ones remind me of the German swords Neumann shows in his book.

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## Tomas Eriksson

Hi Morgan, 
Well, I did a test, wrapping part of the handle, but I felt the new brass wire became a bit to shiny.
The dark Brown bare Wood handle is actually more pleasing to my Eye.
However, If I find some brass wire with an aged look, or a process to dull the shine of brass wire,
I´ll do Another test.

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## morgan butler

Hello Tomas,
I think it looks great with the brass wire. Really all you have to do is hold it a lot and it will get tarnished and dull down enough to blend in with the rest of the hilt after awhile. Should you decide to complete the wrapping I would love to see the finished product!

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## Will Mathieson

I may of mentioned this in an older post but lightly coating the wire in a light oil helps  prevent the wire from breaking when you twist it tightly using a cordless drill.

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## Juan J. Perez

Hello, Tomas. 

I think that you could speed up things a bit with the help of some ammonia:

http://www.howtoantiquebrass.com/how...-with-ammonia/

Haven't tried it myself, but it is an old trick to give the brass an aged surface, while avoiding verdigris. If the wire is lacquered, the use of some solvent before the ageing could be in order.

Juan J.

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## Tomas Eriksson

Hello fellows, 
Thank you for the advice about twisting and ageing brass wire!
I´ll try them all when I work on this particular sword again.
However, since I recently got the wifes permission to build 
a big show case in the livingroom to house most of the collection, 
(and I feel that this is a once in a life time oportunity to be acted on at once)  :Smilie: 
that work is resting for a while. I'm now sketching cabinets and trying to find 
the optimal design for shelves and sword holders to hold and show 
as many swords as possible while allowing easy acces to all of them.
/Tomas E

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## morgan butler

We look forward to seeing your showcase one day!  Here are some pics of a silver hilted 96 with a copper wire hilt. Non-folding un-ornemented guard. I believe it's a double edged blade...Nice!

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## morgan butler

Also I thought this was interesting. This is one of the swords that Nelson fought with at least once during a boarding action. You will notice it is a spadroon bladed sword. A light weapon but the blade was undoubtedly stiff. Though this is a Naval example, it still shows that these kind swords were fought with by officers in battle.

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## morgan butler

Here is a pic of a Prussian Infantry Officer sword. As we know the British 96 version was based on these. Locating pics of the earlier Prussian versions are devilishly hard to find. There is a pic somewhere on SFI of one that has "Potsdam" inserted into the forte in brass. I wasn't able to locate it. 
I find these quite handsome looking. Also I would love to own one. :Wink:

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## T. Donoho

How did I miss that loop hilt?  Wonderful!  I like that Prussian sword too--I have a new attraction to those heavy bladed Prussian "small-swords".

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## morgan butler

Really they are more like transition rapiers or as someone stated earlier "demi-swords". A term I quite like.

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## morgan butler

I wanted to post some pics of a particularly beautiful example of the 96 pattern. One of the guards was (sadly) removed for ease of wear. The blade is 1.25 at the forte. Definitely a fighting example. Very similar to one that I own in the stoutness of the blade and the non-dainty dimensions of the hilt. Enjoy!

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## T. Donoho

Morgan.

Please would you post a pic of the area where the shell was removed.  I don't mind such alteration if it was done "properly" for better wear/use according to the officer's needs/taste.

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## morgan butler

Yes, in this instance I don't mind the removal either, shows that it was worn. Though the extra-stout spadroon blade doesn't look like it saw too much action...

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## Eric Fairbanks

> I wanted to post some pics of a particularly beautiful example of the 96 pattern. One of the guards was (sadly) removed for ease of wear. The blade is 1.25 at the forte. Definitely a fighting example. Very similar to one that I own in the stoutness of the blade and the non-dainty dimensions of the hilt. Enjoy!


The glit and the bone make that one good looking ole gal. Eric

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## morgan butler

Yes it is. I've been looking at it on-line for a week now. Very beautiful with a really nice blade!
Really, even though the thread is titled B.I.S. 1796 and 1803  some of these swords are pre-1796.  this pattern for officers and NCO's was around far longer than that. I really enjoy the many variations of the earlier ones. Often rather plain and practical looking even for officers. Of the four that I own, they are all quite different.

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## Richard Schenk

I've always liked the British M1796 light infantry sword.  I have a nice example of one made for the U.S. market.  Peterson's identifies it as a Topographical Engineer's sword, although he offers no real evidence this was an official pattern other than that the sword illustrated belonged to a topographical engineer.  I rather suspect this was just a particular officer's individual choice vice a branch pattern.  Charles Cureton, an authority on early Marine swords,  believes this pattern was also used by Marine officers in the first decade of the 19th century.  Whatever it is, I do like it.  



The M1796 was also the obvious inspiration for the M1840 Foot Officers sword, albeit perhaps through intervening French and/or German models.  The influence shows particularly well in my Horstmann general officers' version (sometimes called the M1851 Generals Sword).

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## morgan butler

An interesting observation/reflection is that when I first started moving in this realm of antiques, these type of swords (the Officers straight sword)were really going thru a period of enthusiasm and appreciation as far as this site (as I remember it..) A lot of people that actually ignited my interest in them (and really this "type" of sword all over Europe) have moved on in fields of history/swords.  I learned a lot about these from them and still imagine they know more than me now.

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## morgan butler

Hello Richard,
Those are both very nice. What does the sword in the top photo have about it that suggests it was made for the U.S. Market?
That 1840 sword is interesting. I have never seen that before. I will have to look at that for awhile. :Smilie:

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## Richard Schenk

> Hello Richard,
> Those are both very nice. What does the sword in the top photo have about it that suggests it was made for the U.S. Market?
> That 1840 sword is interesting. I have never seen that before. I will have to look at that for awhile.


Hi Morgan,

Primarily the etching on the blade.  The reverse is decorated with foliage, a US Federal Eagle and 16 stars, and a banner with "E Pluribus Unum." There is a ribbon below that with the word "Warranted." The obverse has foliage, the head of an indian maiden, and a large trophy of arms topped with a liberty cap.  All these are typical of English swords made for the American market.  Although inclusion of the word "Warrented" usually indicates English manufacture, some German makers would also copy it and other featureson their swords for export to the US in order to appear British.

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## morgan butler

Ah, that would do it. Should you get the chance could you post some pics of the indian maiden, liberty cap, stars etc?

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## morgan butler

Since Jan 2016 I have acquired 2 more NCO versions of the "1796" infantry model. These are probably my last forays with this pattern. What I thought was interesting was that these last true NCO version have very diminutive hilts. My officer versions  of this pattern have somewhat larger hilts and pommels. I wonder if NCO hilts were made smaller on purpose or is it a way to date them. Perhaps the smaller hilts are perhaps 18th century. Having problems posting pics today. Won't accept them. However they are the same size that I've uploaded here before....

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## Eric Fairbanks

1796 pattern I know very little about them but have to agree with Morgan and Richard they are facinating.

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## morgan butler

Is that  1796 spadroon a recent purchase? Looks like a later-ish version with the silver-foil wrap on the grip instead of the chain. Very nice example. Is it my imagination or is the butterfly guard on that thick and sturdy? Usually they are quite thin on the folding-guard models.  I think you should post a pic of it with your 96 NCO version for contrast/comparison

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## Eric Fairbanks

Morgan it is quite new. It was with a Virginia Manufactory artillery sword I won at auction. I did not think much on it until it arrived as I was focused on the artillery Holy grail. It is a beauty to me but sadly I am back on road and will not be home for a week. I will then post measurements and comparison photos. In the mean time "why is it etched with two different makers or distributers on opposite ricassos? You say later, can you give me a range and how you know? I was thrilled to see it and can't wait to read up when I return home. I think perhaps you give me a 1796 bug. Eric

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## Richard Schenk

> I've always liked the British M1796 light infantry sword.  I have a nice example of one made for the U.S. market.  Peterson's identifies it as a Topographical Engineer's sword, although he offers no real evidence this was an official pattern other than that the sword illustrated belonged to a topographical engineer.  I rather suspect this was just a particular officer's individual choice vice a branch pattern.  Charles Cureton, an authority on early Marine swords,  believes this pattern was also used by Marine officers in the first decade of the 19th century.


I just acquired a copy of Robson's "bible" on UK Army swords.  I was interested to read his comment on the M1796 Infantry that "Despite its defects, virtually the same pattern was in use c1805 in the United States Engineering Corps".  I wonder if he was just parroting Peterson, or if there is evidence the US Army adopted this pattern for use by its engineer officers rather than, as I speculated, it being just the individual choice of one specific Army topographical engineer.

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## morgan butler

Interesting Richard. I wish I knew the answer.
Eric,
I usually attribute foil wrapped grips to later in the the 1796's active career. That is a foil wrapped grip is it not?

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## morgan butler

Also, someone picked up a real beauty on their very first sword, a very nice pre-1801 version.
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...nd-first-sword

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## Eric Fairbanks

Morgan it is silver foil but as yet not cleaned up, it is almost exactly like the grips on my m1832/34 General and staffs. Does any one reconize maker or distributer  stamps on ricasso? These are beautiful swords but having some difficulty distinguishing the 1796 pattern from the earlier version. I sumize from his thread they do not have folding guards befor 1801. Are there any other distinct differences in the earlier models and pre 1796 model?

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## morgan butler

Yes, instead of silver/copper foil they used wire. More expensive and labor intensive. They used wire after 1801 as well, but I'm not exactly sure when they switched to the foil wrap. I imagine towards the end of the Napoleonic Wars. I'll try to find out.

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## Glen C.

My slotted hilt has been ballparked as the 1780s and had the metal on wood "foil" at one time.  1796 is but four years until 1800, so splitting hairs to determine which were before 1800 a bit of a trick.  I have seen more re-wrapped in wire than were originally wire (just an observation).

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## Eric Fairbanks

Does anyone have a photo of the early types. It is my understanding this type started to evolve around 1780. Is that correct? I am sorry I was unclear I am not a master of words only the arc. Regards Eric

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## Will Mathieson

I would presume the wire wrapped grip came first then the foil wrap. My logic is the ovoid shape of the grip tends to allow the wire to loosen easily, a wire loop rolling over the next of slightly smaller diameter. Any wood grip core shrinkage would aid this slippage.

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## Eric Fairbanks

I have tried to re wrap ovoid grips most with the thickened middle. It is near impossible without first applying double stick tape or some other non slip or sticky surface first. I have tried with both soft and hard wire. I would have to agree with Will, many of my wire old wrapped grips have become loose. While I do not have the skill set these early sword manufacturers did even their grips lossen as they dry and age shrink. Excellent observation Will, the how and why of sword making trends is perhaps the most interesting to me. I would suppose in the heat of a conflict a sweaty slick palm could cost you much. Eric

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## morgan butler

Eric I think the link I posted yesterday at 11:51 PM and your NCO sword are good examples.

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## Glen C.

An old archive I had assembled up to 2006 or so.  A newer comprehensive list of threads since then as close as an advanced search.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9A...ew?usp=sharing

So, right there, the order of 1796 speaking of twisted wire.

My slotted hilt grip.  David Critchley had determined the timeline for mine from the etch to be the 1780s from the officer's uniform.


It was my first of many spadroons. Crithcley's 1796 article gone from the main page here.

My old spadroon picture folder (not quite as nutz as my eagle folders)
https://drive.google.com/folderview?...DQ&usp=sharing
There are a number of 1796 and similar shown.

Cheers

Hotspur; _I am sure some others have better books than I regarding their evolution_

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## Tomas Eriksson

Hi Eric, what sticky surface treatment would you recommend? I have a 1796 in need of rewrapping and  I've been thinking about  applying some slow setting glue to the handle , but double sided tape also sounds interesting, more time for the wrapping  :Smilie: 
BR/Tomas E

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## Eric Fairbanks

Thomas Didymus I have had better luck with the double sticky tape than anything on wire wrappings. Any thin soft surface seems to facilitate the wire wrapping sticky or not. I have had no great success but have had moderate sucess. My best example (m1832 General and Staff Officers sword) http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...Officers-sword, I reused original broken wire which was hard to rewrap smoothly, but is original. I have also used contact cement but is a tad messy but works fairly well. Regards Eric

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## Tomas Eriksson

Well, at least regarding the resurection of a 1796 grip I have no doubts  :Smilie: 
It should be easier if the wire could be made to stick to the wood handle.
By the way, I suppose a wooden sword grip from the Napoleonic time has shrunk as much as it ever will by now,  
and that it can be expected to maintain its dimensions if not exposed to moisture.
Should one treat the wood with a modern varnish before re-wrapping it?
BR/Tomas

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## Eric Fairbanks

Thomas, I guess I do not know the correct answer to that from a museum conservation perspective but I do not leave any of my swords to state of deterioration. I do not use varnish or polyurethane or any paint type product. I use tongue oil or linseed oil as it soaks in deep and does not seem to yellow with age. Many of the old swords here have spent years in someones basement and the wood is dry rotted to some extent making it porous and light. I coat them with tongue oil 4 or 5 times or until they quit soaking it up. It makes the wood more stable and stops the detearation. I then after dry use renaissance wax to coat and seal it. If there are no signs of rot or dry rot I just use renaissance wax. Have you read this thread? http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...p-Conservation
Eric

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## Matt Easton

A blue and gilt 1803 of mine, with an ivory grip.

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## Eric Fairbanks

I do not own a 1803 pattern but have always thought it one of the most attractive sabers especially with a slotted hilt. That is a very beautiful piece Matt, Eric

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## Will Mathieson

Eric I have used Paraloid B-72 to stabilize worn holed and dry rotted grips. Not the easiest to use and takes some patience but it does allow one later to hold the sword by the grip without fear of damage. After several days of filling worm holes through the leather wrap the previously soft punky grip became solid. The material does not solidify quickly so it can soak into the wood. Clear and non yellowing and can be dyed or painted if desired.
Museums use this in conservation and restoration.

Matt your 1803 looks great with its ivory grip. The blade appears useful and not highly curved as some are.

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## Eric Fairbanks

Here are my best British 1796 girls. An officer, an NCO, and two others I don't know. I assume the fixed guards are all pre 1800? The older sword has lobes removed and ever who did it was quite a craftsman. The tang peen is old and well done. Not sure why someone would remove guard lobes. The cut down sword fairly common for broken swords but leather over steel scabbard not so much. Can't say much about them as I know little. Would love thoughts on lobeless flat blade with needle etch. Regards Eric

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## morgan butler

What great pics! Now I'm inspired to get some good pics of all 4 of mine as well. 
And of course the long double edged one is very interesting....

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## Eric Fairbanks

It does look double edged but is a back sword with a long false edge. Thanks for the NCO Morgan, I think it is a beaut. Eric

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## morgan butler

The spadroon with the bare wood grip looks like it could be an NCO sword as well. The quillion looks in good shape.

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## T. Donoho

I like the one with the urn-form pommel (bare wood grip and shortened blade) a lot--of course, Morgan would know that!  Some of them look like composites--period pieces--but that can be interesting and fun in itself. Nice group of swords!

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## morgan butler

Ah yes, I didn't notice the blade had been shortened on that one. Definitely an NCO sword then.

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## T. Donoho

> Ah yes, I didn't notice the blade had been shortened on that one. Definitely an NCO sword then.


That's a pretty short blade. Was it broken and repointed or reduced to that length for convenience in the field? I would not dismiss the latter since a blade of 20 inches or so can be a good fit and weight based on what I have handled.

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## morgan butler

Could be either, considering NCO's sometimes still carried spontoons during the Napoleonic Wars especially around the colors, shortening a sword makes sense. I've seen other NCO versions with shortened blades.

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## David Critchley

A few more for the mix:

1796 Officer's (by Prosser, blade Runkel), Sergeant's and Drummer's
&
Royal Scots variant (Prosser again) with the original brown/red scabbard




Pre regulation "1786" - so called, but probably just early 1790s militia


and a couple of "03s"

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## morgan butler

Glad to hear from "The Dean of the 1796 Spadroon!" It's been awhile...
Maybe you could post your excellent article on the British 18th infantry officer sword that they used to have on this site.

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## T. Donoho

David,

Is it probable that the shortened blade would be for a drummer--is that how you have identified it here?

Thanks.

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## David Critchley

Hi Morgan, Tom,

Yes It is definitely for a drummer, the blade is forged at that length not cut down from a sgt. version. The length complies exactly with the measurements in Robson. 

They are quite rare, there was a bit of a battle over it when I sent it to auction a couple of years ago  :Smilie: 

D

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## T. Donoho

Ah, ha. Very good. Thanks for the information, David.

Were drummers of adolescent age? If yes, I imagine the size of this sword was good for their size.

The urn pommel would date this c. 1780, correct?

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## David Critchley

Typically I think they were about 15
They were armed with the short spadroon and a brace of pistols. They advanced with the regimental Colours, and so surrounded by the regimental Colour sergeants - so probably as safe a place as you are going to get.

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## T. Donoho

Thanks, David.

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## morgan butler

Here is a very nice 1796 Spadroon that went for very little on Ebay. While it is very unadorned like an NCO sword it has the silver grip-wire of an officer. I especially like those. Looks to me as though about 1/8th of an inch was shaved off the width of the blade. I might have bid had it been otherwise.
Here's the link, I can't seem to upload any pictures to SFI anymore because everything exceeds their 100.0 KB limit. I never used to have these problems. Perhaps someone can PM me about it. I'm something of a luddite. Check out this worthy spadroon....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Prus...vip=true&rt=nc

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## morgan butler

With Photo's! Here is a very nice 1796 Spadroon that went for very little on Ebay. While it is very unadorned like an NCO sword it has the silver grip-wire of an officer. I especially like those. Looks to me as though about 1/8th of an inch was shaved off the width of the blade. I might have bid had it been otherwise.

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