# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Antique & Military Sword Forum >  The Post American Civil War (ACW) Short Sword.

## T. Graham

Based on the interest created by the WKC thread, it is time to look at this very neglected area of American sword collecting.
Many of this forum's members have always thought that long and narrow is best. But, I am here to tell you that once you get inside, short and wide always rules.
For those that have not seen it; check out the background info on the earlier Weyersberg, Kirschbaum & Cie thread.
(I will give you ten minutes before I continue.)
Time is up, if you are not finished, do it on your own time. My wife does not like it when I stay up late 'playing swords'.
Here is some of my accumulation. I think I have most everything in the Ames catalog. some of which are not here.
Does anyone want me to continue? I think I have already posted the Ames made exhibition swords.

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## Glen C.

Hi Tim

Great spread as always. Sorry to miss the ten minute warning  :Wink:  I am most curious about a few of them but in a passive sort of way. The one on our left with the baldric and longer straight blade and also the two yataghan bladed ones. The steel fittings scabbard yataghan turned up in a thread somewhere else and was being id'ed as a cadet's sword. There is a straight blade pointy thing in a picture with a young lad in uniform. is that where the cadet sword story starts for all these? I seein the rolling block 1870 bayonet with the bullseye as well. Does that one have a catalog name. I know they circulate as naval swords but are not. aside from sharing the blade type. Some of these we see in the new testament for fraternal swords and by and large seem to be IOOF fodder. Hold that thought, you have some exhibition guard swords there as well. Including it seems a Jefferson Guard?

Cheers

Hotspur; _pacing the floor over other life issues and no better half to turn off the tv_

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## T. Graham

There are only two American post ACW short sword worthy of note.
In may of 1893, The City of Chicago open the Colombian National Exposition. Uniformed guards provided security, acted as guides and generally help the visiting public. They participated in ceremonies and parades wearing this unique short sword made by the Ames sword Co. Chicopee, Massachusetts.
The blade and scabbard were surplus M1870 USN rolling block rifle bayonets that Ames made way to many of.

The hilt was later used in the other sword.

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## T. Graham

This is the other post ACW American short sword. There are at least three variations in the decorative aspects. I have seen one Marked Ames Sword Co. and this is the only one with the eagle band on the scabbard, that I know of. 
There is a M1902 tang screw that allows dis-assembly of the hilt. I took it apart and like Tonto said when asked what was under the Lone Ranger's mask; his reply was "no big deal".
When I received this sword the exposed scabbard leather was missing. Under the mountings I found *brown* leather over the steel scabbard and it was glued, not stitched. It was easy to replace the leather. There is a small dent in the scabbard steel which I did not try to iron out.
The Jefferson Guard is wearing a version of the M1902 enlisted uniform and his sword.

This is the last important post ACW sword, but there are still some interesting ones. Is there interest? Am I the only one that has any?

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## Glen C.

Well Tim

I enjoy reading the descriptions and seeing the pictures for sure. The other catalog pages label the hilts well.

It is the Grecian hilt that seems to come with  a few different bayonet blades and even some in straight short aluminum (as with the bullseye type)

It is a steel mounted scabbard yataghan bayonet that had popped up recently that fits well with your presentation here.



One blade with this hilt I had never seen except this photo is rather long pointy thing. It's hard to tell how tall the lad is but going by the hilt size, seems longer than a bayonet blade (this may be a weird medical officer hilt though and a bit less bulky).


Another we know to be purely theatrical is the Rice Surprise Party swords that were cast with the 1492 motif opposite the standard Grecian motif


Cheers

Hotspur; _The Grecian hilt seems to be just an easy evolution of the much more refined medical officer hilt._

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## T. Graham

This is probably the most misunderstood and ugliest, of all American short swords. Despite this, it was as popular as any of the other ones. Shown in the lodge and theatrical section of the 1882 Ames sword Co., 1882 catalog, as models 235, 236, 237 and 238, the 'Grecian' sword came in these four basic models; but, like just about any US produced sword, the customer could order just about any combination of components the imagination would allow. The American Fraternal Sword book shows three as IOOF degree team swords.
Of the examples below, only one is shown in the catalog. The 'Yataghan' version was a way to use up Ames model 581 Turkish bayonets. Ames never seemed to understand that when dealing with governments, you had better be sure you are going to be paid or you make a lot of short swords. They must have overrun the M1870 bayonets 1000%. 
Now look carefully at these four 'Grecian' hilts, you will notice that each of these examples is slightly different. (Maybe only one is original and the others are fakes.) 
Isn't the 'eagle' hilt really cool?
I think Glen is sorry he brought this up.

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## T. Graham

Finely got one at a reasonable price. Compare the blade with many of the above. I have wondered if Ames made these blades to a specific quantity in the contract. Who was the contract with; the Navy or Springfield Armory.  Of course, the tax payers ate the cost over-run.

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## Bruce Blackistone

Fascinating!  

The "Grecian" hilts are pretty ugly to our eyes, which are used to cleaner lines; but seem to be the epitome of Victorian fussiness and over-decorative details that were so much in favor at that time.   (Which, of course, helped lead to the reaction of modernist design.)

I was unaware of the "recycling" of old bayonets into these decorative short swords.  I learn something new just about every time I come here.   :Big Grin:

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## George Wheeler

Jumpin' Jehosephat!  Those are some ugly "'Grecian' hilt" short swords.  This is a perfect example of using leftovers in the "parts is parts" sword construction mentality.  Ya works with what ya got to try to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.  I really don't think it worked with these particular short swords.  

And, I am about out of coloquialisms.  But please carry on Tim.

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## T. Graham

It amazes me that the Navy bayonet bladed swords are still promoted as US Navy short swords. I like the ones with the RED leather scabbard.

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## T. Graham

Not all Ames short swords were made using surplus bayonet blades. It is not marked.  I have no idea if it was made for a specific purpose or just theatrical and lodge.

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## T. Graham

Last night 12/18/14 on a new episode of Pawn Stars on the History Channel, Rick Harrison was offered a sword that was part of the Trent Affair. Link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trent_Affair. The 'sword' came with all sorts of documentation to 'prove' it's legitimacy. The seller wanted something like $15,000 for it. Rick offered $5000, but luckily for Rick, he was turned down. This sword is a combination of the Ames 349 'Roman' hilt on the 581 Turkish rolling block rifle blade and scabbard. It was just another Ames short sword concoction. 
Below is the hilt and the blade and scabbard with silver painted. brass mounts.

This is an example of knowing about these, not so poplar swords, may keep you from fooling yourself.

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## Glen C.

Saw that episode. It had a straight blade though, not the recurve yataghan blade. It is one of the Ecole De Mars patterns/knockoffs and as you mention shown in the Ames catalog.

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## T. Graham

> Finely got one at a reasonable price. Compare the blade with many of the above. I have wondered if Ames made these blades to a specific quantity in the contract. Who was the contract with; the Navy or Springfield Armory.  Of course, the tax payers ate the cost over-run.


Often seen on feeBay and at militaria shows; the, so called, USN short sword is the wildly over produced USN 1870 Rolling Block bayonet blade and scabbard attached to the Ames Sword Co. 331 'Roman" hilt. Also, as shown above, the Chicago Columbia Exposition guard sword has this blade. 
I suspect that collectors have been 'stung' with these 'navy' swords.

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## T. Graham

The American Fraternal Sword (ISBN: 1-931464-38-3) Designates this Ames 240 as a IOOF degree team sword, it could have had other lodge or theatrical uses. This one was sold by Henderson-Ames, Kalamazoo MI. There are many variations to this design.

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## Glen C.

Vrey cool.  The scabbard is the bomb! The last example I saw on the bay lacked the scabbard.

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## David Loundy

> Often seen on feeBay and at militaria shows; the, so called, USN short sword is the wildly over produced USN 1870 Rolling Block bayonet blade and scabbard attached to the Ames Sword Co. 331 'Roman" hilt. Also, as shown above, the Chicago Columbia Exposition guard sword has this blade. 
> I suspect that collectors have been 'stung' with these 'navy' swords.


I have one of these.  In researching it (largely after I bought it), 1870 US Navy short sword is about the only thing I managed to find-- hard to find much at all though.

So, what is it?  Just a piece purchasable from a catalog by anyone who wants a bayonet blade and a Roman hilt, or was it targeted at a particular audience?

--David--

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## T. Graham

> I have one of these.  In researching it (largely after I bought it), 1870 US Navy short sword is about the only thing I managed to find-- hard to find much at all though.
> 
> So, what is it?  Just a piece purchasable from a catalog by anyone who wants a bayonet blade and a Roman hilt, or was it targeted at a particular audience?
> 
> --David--


They were made for theatrical and lodge ritual. Most anything known about them is here. The American Fraternal Sword shows the the specific lodge versions.

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## T. Graham

Here is a Horstmann bayonet blade converted into a short sword with the addition of a Ames Sword Co. no. 331 hilt.

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