# Communities > Modern-era Swords and Collecting Community > Modern Production Katanas >  Cheness shobu zukuri

## Andrew Thornton

Just been on Cheness' web site and seen a shobu zukuri variant in there 9260 line. It looks nice. I like the 'Ayame' with the shinogi traveling the length of the blade. Yup. Payday is comming. Gonna have to "forget" the electric bill......again. I suppose it could be worse. Better spent on a sword collection than drugs and alcohol if you ask me.

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## Benjamin P.

Sorry to say this, but so far I have not seen a single production sword company that has ever pulled off a "shobu" sugata correctly, including the one by Bugei.  This one by Cheness is no exception.  From what I've learned from some of the older posts here and my own reading, there's just so much more to what makes a shobu than just the tip geometry.  I wonder when some of these companies will finally crack open a book and actually attempt learn about some of the things they're trying to make.....

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## Andrew Thornton

Interesting reply. Any you think came close? Bugei's was allright if you ask me.

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## Timo Qvintus

> Sorry to say this, but so far I have not seen a single production sword company that has ever pulled off a "shobu" sugata correctly, including the one by Bugei.  This one by Cheness is no exception.  From what I've learned from some of the older posts here and my own reading, there's just so much more to what makes a shobu than just the tip geometry.  I wonder when some of these companies will finally crack open a book and actually attempt learn about some of the things they're trying to make.....


Do you have first-hand experience in production shobu of Cheness, Oni and Bugei (are there others)? If so, how would you compare them?

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## Bogdan M.

> Do you have first-hand experience in production shobu of Cheness, Oni and Bugei (are there others)? If so, how would you compare them?


You would have the Praying Mantis from Hanwei, there was also a model called Sukehiro from Gus, there is one in the classifieds IIRC. There also was one model from Last Legend and I think the Cold Steel warrior "wants" to be a shobu  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Benjamin P.

> Do you have first-hand experience in production shobu of Cheness, Oni and Bugei (are there others)? If so, how would you compare them?


I've handled the Oni and Bugei and MartialArtSwords versions of "shobu".  The less said about the Oni, the better... just all around poor quality (polish, balance, etc.), but you get what you pay for.  The Bugei and MAS are better, but Bugei has much better fittings and materials.  The only thing about the Bugei, I felt the blade was just much too hefty for anything other than tameshigiri and certainly not for prolonged exercise, although some people might feel differently.  Despite the pricetag, MAS had surprisingly poor fittings and awkward saya, etc.  The alleged hand-polish wasn't very good either.  But both have the same flaw in that the makers seem to think that the shobu sugata only needs to be characterized by the last 3~4 inches of the blade.  From what I've gathered, the blade's edge needs to be a continuous curve/taper toward the tip beginning from the base (at the machi), and that's just one of the features.  The production/imitations of shobu all seem to be built just like shinogi-zukuri until the last bit at the tip.  Some previous posters have commented that the Bugei's shobu is exactly like the regular Hanwei W&T minus the yokote.  Well, having seen the two side-by-side, I have to disagree... but still, the difference isn't enough to make the Bugei version a "true" shobu in my opinion.  

But please note that I'm still just a n00b and these are just my limited observations as a beginner.  Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm way off.  Just my opinion.

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## Timo Qvintus

I took a quick surfing session; I couldn't find the LL shobu, so that's not included, and I don't think Gus' work should be compared to these.. These are my first-impressions, and I'm a relative newbie to this topic, so my opinions should be taken with a huge pinch of salt.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

PC "Praying Mantis" looks exactly like a shinogi-zukuri without a counter-polished kissaki.. It even has a regular bo-hi!


Bugei shobu; my first impression is that it looks like o-kissaki shinogi-zukuri with a poorly shaped ko-shinogi, and no yokote.


Oni Shobu; what Benjamin said really shows here; the edge doesn't taper until the last bit. Shinogi/ko-shinogi looks actually better than on the previous two, IMO.


MAS Flame katana is supposed to be shobu zukuri, but looks like it has the same sugata as PC Mantis:


Cheness shobu "Kurome": sugata looks a bit like a mix of Oni Shobu and Bugei Shobu? 


Cheness shobu "Ayame": the only one where the shinogi actually extends fully into the kissaki; but again, the general geometry is out of whack. Nice looking kissaki, IMO.

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## Mat Rous

The last one looks more like Shobu. The the best I've ever seen was on Keith Larman's website - a nihonto. Not beefy but definitely Iris leaf.

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## Timo Qvintus

> The last one looks more like Shobu. The the best I've ever seen was on Keith Larman's website - a nihonto. Not beefy but definitely Iris leaf.


You wouldn't happen to refer to this one;
http://www.moderntosho.com/gallery2/...m&g2_itemId=51

Now that thing is gorgeous!! I've had it bookmarked for almost a year, I never get bored looking at it..

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## Bogdan M.

> You wouldn't happen to refer to this one;
> http://www.moderntosho.com/gallery2/...m&g2_itemId=51
> 
> Now that thing is gorgeous!! I've had it bookmarked for almost a year, I never get bored looking at it..


Well, I think it resembles the cheness model quite a lot, the only difference is that the Japanese blade is more heavily etched  :Stick Out Tongue:   :Big Grin:

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## Timo Qvintus

> Well, I think it resembles the cheness model quite a lot, the only difference is that the Japanese blade is more heavily etched


 :Stick Out Tongue: 

For reference, here's what a mukansa-level swordsmith thinks shobu should look like..

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## B.Pogue

Differences in the tip of a Shobu vs. Shinogi are plain to see. Benjamin mentioned differences in the blade body itself (which I cannot distinguish from the pictures linked to above), would someone kindly care to elaborate?

Blake

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## Timo Qvintus

Here's some Iris leaves!  :Big Grin:

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## Timo Qvintus

> Differences in the tip of a Shobu vs. Shinogi are plain to see. Benjamin mentioned differences in the blade body itself (which I cannot distinguish from the pictures linked to above), would someone kindly care to elaborate?
> 
> Blake


Strictly 2-dimensionally speaking, taper of shobu blade begins very early, if not at hamachi. From Richard Stein's website:



I'm pretty sure that there's more differences when you pop into 3-D world, but since I have no access to shobu-blades (modern or antique) I'll leave that to more knowledgeable people..

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## Bogdan M.

Yepp, and judging by that beautiful Japanese example, the curve accelerates towards the tip, the tip is not just a simple circle sector like it was for shinogi zukuri, it's a fragment of parabole (or was it hyperbole?)

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## Jason M D.

> For reference, here's what a mukansa-level swordsmith thinks shobu should look like..




Got Hamon?  :drool:

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## Mat Rous

> You wouldn't happen to refer to this one;
> http://www.moderntosho.com/gallery2/...m&g2_itemId=51
> 
> Now that thing is gorgeous!! I've had it bookmarked for almost a year, I never get bored looking at it..


That's the one - I have it saved on my work laptop as "Ultimate Shobu". That's higher res than my copy - cheers!  :Big Grin: 

Bogdan, the one above has more of a "diamond" cross section than shinogi zhukuri - I think of those as more "elongated-Kite". 

The Shobu tip always reminds me of a Beak.

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## Bogdan M.

http://jswords.com/detail_katana03B.html

This one is not Japanese made, but it's a replica of a Japanese antique. 9mm thick  :Wink:

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## michael wilson

but I like the cheness Ayame' shobu the best of the lot ( apart from the nihonto of course ) 

At least the geometry looks some ways towards being correct  - I'll second Timo's vote for its nice kissaki as well .

as the shinogi has its high or low shinogi the shobu is more of a diamond shaped cross section ,

guys used to polish out the yokote of hanwei W & T and call it a shobu  - they totally missed the point ( pun intended  :Big Grin:   ) 

Mick

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## Bogdan M.

> but I like the cheness Ayame' shobu the best of the lot ( apart from the nihonto of course )


Heh, I'm not a big fan of shobu myself, but I feel the same, with the bugei blade coming second. Too bad the polish on the cheness is, well, cheap, otherwise it would make a really good looking blade.

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## Timo Qvintus

> I like the cheness Ayame' shobu the best of the lot ( apart from the nihonto of course )


me too; too bad the hamon is fake, one of these might have looked pretty nice hybrid-polished if it was real.. 

I'd need to see cross-sections or handle the blades to really pick a definite "winner", though.

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## Aaron Justice

> but I like the cheness Ayame' shobu the best of the lot ( apart from the nihonto of course ) 
> 
> At least the geometry looks some ways towards being correct  - I'll second Timo's vote for its nice kissaki as well .
> 
> as the shinogi has its high or low shinogi the shobu is more of a diamond shaped cross section ,
> 
> guys used to polish out the yokote of hanwei W & T and call it a shobu  - they totally missed the point ( pun intended   ) 
> 
> Mick



I'll, uh, fifth that as well I guess. it does have the best shape, though obviously in production sword limitations.

It seems these days everyone calls any blade without a defined yokote a "shobu zukuri" blade.

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## Mat Rous

I spoke to a Nihonto collector last year and he said that surprisingly, there were Shobus made that were very long but quite light - the diamond cross-section made them nice and strong but they were quite agile. I'd love to see an example of those.

Shobu is my favourite shape but the production ones aren't really what I'm after and there aren't many examples of nihonto I've seen. 

So, if you've got pictures - post 'em!  :Wink:

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## Timo Qvintus

> Shobu is my favourite shape but the production ones aren't really what I'm after and there aren't many examples of nihonto I've seen. 
> 
> So, if you've got pictures - post 'em!


Rick's work, an orishigane shobu.. 


Just do an advanced search on SFI; "shobu" in "titles only", that brings up quite a few custom pieces (RickB, HC, ADC..)

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## Mat Rous

I already have all the modern ones saved - it's the Nihonto I want. One day, I'll get one made if I can find the right balanced picture.

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## michael wilson

I will probably get the ayame' shobu from cheness to round off a collection of various sughata in production swords  - 

I would like to see the LL shobu if its out there , are people wrongly mistaking the bear geometry of some LL lines as shobu zukuri ?

if I remember rightly the bear competition cutter had no yokote and o - kissaki but it was still only a shinogi zukuri if a tad none traditional .

Do dynasty forge have a shobu line ? if not they should .

Mick

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## Bogdan M.

> I would like to see the LL shobu if its out there , are people wrongly mistaking the bear geometry of some LL lines as shobu zukuri ?
> 
> if I remember rightly the bear competition cutter had no yokote and o - kissaki but it was still only a shinogi zukuri if a tad none traditional .


I saw it advertised on some sites as a shobu, that's why I mentioned it. 
Anyway, LL is pretty much over the hill right now. The only times I hear it mentioned is when people talk about how they are waiting for more than 6 months for their order to arrive.

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## michael wilson

I will probably get the ayame' shobu from cheness to round off a collection of various sughata in production swords  - 

I would like to see the LL shobu if its out there , are people wrongly mistaking the bear geometry of some LL lines as shobu zukuri ?

if I remember rightly the bear competition cutter had no yokote and o - kissaki but it was still only a shinogi zukuri if a tad none traditional .

Do dynasty forge have a shobu line ? if not they should .

Mick

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## Jo P.

<_< Here to spam for my love on the new shobu zukuri blade from Cheness! xP Shobu Zukuri is my favorite type of style, and when I saw the new line on Cheness, it almost made me regret buying my new 9260 TH wakizashi (Which I love to death, and I only recieved it in the mail a week ago) I don't regret it though YAY! Either way, I love you Cheness!
 :drool:

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## Lovebell Forrest

I have both the Bugei and LL takeoshi. Please dont compare these fine cutting machines to the beater class cheness and other brands.

I bought a cheness to use while I was recovering from an elbow operation. It is a hunk of junk, and Im glad Im done with it. Id sell it to someone, but Id be ashamed to put my name on the box.

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## michael wilson

All due respect Lovebell I share a lot of your sentiments about cheness but I will stand behind their 9260 range though - 

just because a blade has a $300 price tag does not qualify it as crapola  - indeed ive handled several of the 9260 blades and yes 
they do need a full remount IMO to instill 100% confidence in me .

I have every reason to believe the 9260 shobu will be just as hardy 
as the rest of the 9260 line . 

I think we can all acknowledge the superiority of the Bugei shobu 
but I will reserve judgement on the LL shobu is its such an unknown quantity to me .

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## Bogdan M.

It's just a matter of perspective I guess. One could argue that both Hanwei and Bugei swords are, from a traditional nihonto perspective, just junk.

No need to get too attached to a brand Lovebell, all "brands" have their goods and bads  :Wink:

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## Timo Qvintus

> I have both the Bugei and LL takeoshi. Please dont compare these fine cutting machines to the beater class cheness and other brands.
> 
> I bought a cheness to use while I was recovering from an elbow operation. It is a hunk of junk, and Im glad Im done with it. Id sell it to someone, but Id be ashamed to put my name on the box.


To quote the Human Torch; "Flame on!"  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> I think we can all acknowledge the superiority of the Bugei shobu..


No, we all can't. Not me, at least. I need more than a price-tag and fancy koshirae to convince me. Based purely on pictures, and the track record of 9260 blade (note: BLADES, not the koshirae), I'd take Cheness Ayame over Bugei Shobu any day of the week for a user-blade (given that I'd first re-fit it, LOL). Again, remember that my opinion is based purely on the pictures, I'd need to handle the blades myself to make a more educated decision, but I see no reason for recognizing something as superior because it looks nice. None of us has handled a Cheness shobu, so no-one can really tell at this time which shobu (I'm referring to all of the above) would really be the best and by what criteria.

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## Lovebell Forrest

For what the Shobu was designed to do. Cleave armour. The Bugei, has the grith needed to do the job. 

Timo. I would say you and others need to try one out before saying any beater will come close to doing what the Bugei can. 

*remember that my opinion is based purely on the pictures* Where my opinion was not.


 Bogdan my Master, who tests for Hanwei would disagree with you. He owns blades that cost as much as my house (or more). Yet still practices daily with his blade given to him by Paul Chen.

Further more, I see the Cheness doesnt even bother to post lengths or wieghts of this blade. It looks the about the size of my LL, but way smaller than the Bugei.

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## Timo Qvintus

> For what the Shobu was designed to do. Cleave armour. The Bugei, has the grith needed to do the job. 
> 
> Timo. I would say you and others need to try one out before saying any beater will come close to doing what the Bugei can.


I'm not implying that Bugei Shobu doesn't get the job done, I'm simply stating that none of us has seen a Cheness shobu in real life (or has someone? if so, please post a review!) so we can't tell if it performs better or worse, or at all.

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## Benjamin P.

Pardon me... but cleave armor?  I thought swords were supposed to take advantage of weak-points in armor (at joints, etc.)... at most piercing, but not actually to cut through them...?  Anyway, I have hard time believing that shobu were all beefy blades throughout history, even if it began that way initially.

Mat Rous asked for picture of nihonto of shobu.

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## Benjamin P.

And... one more...

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## Bogdan M.

> For what the Shobu was designed to do. Cleave armour. The Bugei, has the grith needed to do the job.


Hmm I think you're consfusing things a bit. The best bugei blades seem to have a esign inspired by the mid kamakura period (I like that design btw) when samurai wore heavy armour, the heaviest in istory.

But the swords were meant to *withstand* the impact with heavy armour, not to cleave through it. What you could cut was actually the wrist, or you could thrust at the throat or at the arm pit. You could accasionally wack the helmet of your opponent and get him unconscious, but you wouldn't atually cut it. 

From this point of view I don't know if bugei blades are more resilient that cheness, because of the different heat treatment. Unless somebody goes testing bugei blades against armour. Have you? :Wink: 




> Bogdan my Master, who tests for Hanwei would disagree with you. He owns blades that cost as much as my house (or more). Yet still practices daily with his blade given to him by Paul Chen.


I bet Paul Cen can make some fine blades. I like some of the Hanwei products quite a lot. I also know he can make crappy designs at times. Just look at the last perormance series: extra wide extra flat swords that would not withstand much of any tipe of armour... Grasscutters. That's why I say don't get hooked up on the brand, look at the sword.




> Further more, I see the Cheness doesnt even bother to post lengths or wieghts of this blade. It looks the about the size of my LL, but way smaller than the Bugei.


Funny you should say that, I searched for a few months to find measurements of bugei blades. They never tell the kasane, and the length of the nakago on their site is 4 years old, eversince they adapt the length of the nakago at the size of the tsuka.
Anyway, they're just brands, don't get attached to them too much. Sometimes make good products, sometimes bad. What you need to consider if if they do what you need and if they are worth the money they're asking.

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## michael wilson

and lets all back up a bit  :Big Grin: 

LL , Bugei , hanwei , Cheness - all have their merits and their fans no ones going to chnge anyone elses opinion of that now are they?

might be the 9260 could take more abuse than a bugei shobu , the quality of the bugei sword would be more than a few clicks above the cheness , and thats koshirea quality pre-shipping inspection and build quality . 

methinks the cheness ayame' shobu 'might' be a sleeper  - a treasure of a blade hidden in with poo cack koshirea  - I know the tenchi and shura blades qualify for sleeper status from owning and using one . 

personally I would pass on the Bugei  - purely because I doubt I could handle such a big blade effectively rendering it of little practical use to me .

I do want to add an ayame to my collection  - even though I had swore off production katana back in June  - damn those sword makers  :Big Grin:  

Mick

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## Karl J

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I wouldn't ho a garden with a cheness blade. Reardless of 9260 o what ever "spring" steel they are pushing. It is all substandard junk that is at best an approximation of real swords. Much akin to putting a ferrari body on a fiero. Still junk, might be better looking, but still junk.

Do we need to rehash all the post about one size fits all tsuka, batch heat treating etc...

Now before all the flames and me being called a snob or bashing cheness... Fine whatever... I don't own a tool I don't trust. I don't buy something because "well part (a) is ok, you know part (a) is really what counts, never mind that I need to replace parts (b-through-z), nope don't think so... can't convince me its a good idea, no guarantees that any parts out of the whole thing are worth a damn. Why spnd the man hours trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

Yes Bugei are production blades, but lets see they have people in volved like keith larman and james williams, swords are inspected etc... no I don't any bugei blades either. Will I? Probably not.

And Mick....thought you were getting to the point where you'd know better :Wink: 

-Karl

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## Timo Qvintus

> I've said it before and I'll say it again. I wouldn't ho a garden with a cheness blade. Reardless of 9260 o what ever "spring" steel they are pushing. It is all substandard junk that is at best an approximation of real swords. Much akin to putting a ferrari body on a fiero. Still junk, might be better looking, but still junk.
> 
> Do we need to rehash all the post about one size fits all tsuka, batch heat treating etc...
> 
> Now before all the flames and me being called a snob or bashing cheness... Fine whatever... I don't own a tool I don't trust. I don't buy something because "well part (a) is ok, you know part (a) is really what counts, never mind that I need to replace parts (b-through-z), nope don't think so... can't convince me its a good idea, no guarantees that any parts out of the whole thing are worth a damn. Why spnd the man hours trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.
> 
> Yes Bugei are production blades, but lets see they have people in volved like keith larman and james williams, swords are inspected etc... no I don't any bugei blades either. Will I? Probably not.
> 
> And Mick....thought you were getting to the point where you'd know better
> ...


Why not just call for a ban of production sword discussion on SFI..  :Stick Out Tongue: 

FWIW, it's not replacing parts b-z, more like w-z. Like buying a car with bad tires that you're gonna swap. And you know what, some of us actually do it for fun. As a hobby. I know I do.

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## Aaron Justice

> I've said it before and I'll say it again. I wouldn't ho a garden with a cheness blade. Reardless of 9260 o what ever "spring" steel they are pushing. It is all substandard junk that is at best an approximation of real swords. Much akin to putting a ferrari body on a fiero. Still junk, might be better looking, but still junk.
> 
> Do we need to rehash all the post about one size fits all tsuka, batch heat treating etc...
> 
> Now before all the flames and me being called a snob or bashing cheness... Fine whatever... I don't own a tool I don't trust. I don't buy something because "well part (a) is ok, you know part (a) is really what counts, never mind that I need to replace parts (b-through-z), nope don't think so... can't convince me its a good idea, no guarantees that any parts out of the whole thing are worth a damn. Why spnd the man hours trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.
> 
> Yes Bugei are production blades, but lets see they have people in volved like keith larman and james williams, swords are inspected etc... no I don't any bugei blades either. Will I? Probably not.
> 
> And Mick....thought you were getting to the point where you'd know better
> ...


For what it's worth I agree mostly. I honestly would never seek to own a Cheness blade for the most part. I've had a few that were made by the same forge but sold through Kris Cutlery, and they were actually pretty decent, in fact they had some interesting hamon patterns for such a low price. But going through the time and effort and money fixing one up probably isn't worth it.

However I don't simply mock the blades because they aren't custom quality. I wouldn't call them approximations of swords, I would just call them low tier swords. Approximations would be stainless steel blades without any shaping whatsoever with plastic fittings. Cheness blades have the right ideas but skimp on quality materials and have modernly produced blades.

To avoid car analogies, I'll move into food. They're more like fast food, meant for the masses. Most people don't have the time, or even the money, to eat out at fancy restaurants all the time. Paul Chen and Dynasty Forge blades are like quality eating places such as a Pick Up Stix or various other eateries. Not fast food, not a fine dining establishment, but a quality meal at a reasonable price. You could go to panda express and get a similar meal for half the price, but its been sitting under a heat lamp for a while. Custom blades are like a nice steakhouse or another fine dining establishment. You are required to wear formal clothing. The meal (custom blade) costs 10 times what fast food costs IF you don't order wine (folded or tamahagane steel, so make that 20 times), and you have to leave a huge tip (custom koshirae). The tip alone will be more expensive than the fast food order.

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## Lovebell Forrest

> Hmm I think you're consfusing things a bit. The best bugei blades seem to have a esign inspired by the mid kamakura period (I like that design btw) when samurai wore heavy armour, the heaviest in istory.
> 
> From this point of view I don't know if bugei blades are more resilient that cheness, because of the different heat treatment. Unless somebody goes testing bugei blades against armour. Have you?
> 
> 
> 
> I bet Paul Cen can make some fine blades. I like some of the Hanwei products quite a lot. I also know he can make crappy designs at times. Just look at the last perormance series: extra wide extra flat swords that would not withstand much of any tipe of armour... Grasscutters. That's why I say don't get hooked up on the brand, look at the sword.



Stolen from Bugei's website:

_Here is a warriors blade that hearkens back to the 14th century, a strong beautiful blade in the classic Shobu Zukuri style. This sword is an exceptional cutting blade as the samurai proved against the Mongol invaders where this style of sword proved more effective against the Mongol armor. This style of blade is believed to have evolved from the naginata/nagamaki that were renowned for their cutting power._ 

But then who trusts advertising

*Unless somebody goes testing bugei blades against armour. Have you?*

Not with my Shobu, But my LL yes. Ive cut all kinds of things. It has a better warranty :-D


My Master does not like my Shobu, or my Sensei's Dragonfly. 

Considering I own 3 different companies swords, and no two form teh same company, Id say Im an equal opportunity cutter  :Smilie: 

To each his own I say!

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## Mat Rous

Ben - thanks for that. The second picture with the close up of the tip, clearly illustrates the classic Shobu sugata. Love it!

 :Big Grin:

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## michael wilson

*And Mick....thought you were getting to the point where you'd know better*

hehhehe  - hey karl  - I do mate , I do  - 

always a pleasure to get called out by a mate  :Wink: 

I'll quantify my s#@t for y'all  - for a beater , something to whack the hell out of cardboard tubes cheness 9260 swords do this real well , about as well as cold steel series katana  - 

is the quality of the koshirea abysmal ?  - hell yes .

would I trust the things out of the box  - hell no . 

and to anyone who doubts the truth of my koshirea crapola statement go check out les yeichs youtube cheness fittings test vid  - the 'brass' :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  fuchi starts to bubble and melt as soon as heat is applied  - not good and downright dangerous .

but for beaters the blades are sound .

hope ive redeemed myself Karl  LOL  - my fault for not getting my exuberance in context .

fortunately my only cheness experience has been a good one  - 
I got a cheness shirasaya shura blade that a guy who knows what he's doing had totally remounted from the blade out over - 
*
I would buy an ayame' shobu*  - but only as a decor piece  - I wouldnt spend the cash on it a full remount would cost to make it useable to my satisfaction.

Mick

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## michael wilson

heres a quote  I found on a youtube comment from a sword test vid  - 

"_Mr Chen ( of cheness) informed me that these issues of tsuka failure only occur on about 1% of the katana that leave the factory for distribution_

Ok I may have paraphrased it slightly  - but is this an acceptable 
amount ?

1% does not seem like much at all does it ? Its only like a 1/100th of something , right ?

but then again for every 1000 swords that leave the factory 10 will fail at the tsuka  - starts to get a little bit dodgy doesnt it ?

Is a 1% percent failure rate acceptable when failure may mean 
injury or even accidental death? 

food for thought 

Mick

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## Timo Qvintus

> "_Mr Chen ( of cheness) informed me that these issues of tsuka failure only occur on about 1% of the katana that leave the factory for distribution_


Run for cover!!!  :EEK!:

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## Andrew Thornton

Christ, karl, you'd swear production blades are gonna shatter upon impact with the air by the way you talk. Granted the production blades can't compare to custom jobs, but even custom makers f@#k up every know and then. As for production blades and the peeps that produce them....well we peeps from Philly have a saying...even a blind squirrel finds an acorn eventually. I have, on occasion, considered parting with a kidney and a third of my liver in exchange for the capitol neccessary to by a nice custom blade.

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## P. Gallick

Good grief. Do you work for Bugei? Bugei, Bugei, Bugei. Yes, we all know you have a Bugei. Good for you. You can stop now. 

And, by Bugei saying in their advertising copy that it was designed to cleave armour does not mean that it was designed to cleave armour. It just makes people go "ooooooo!" and buy the blade. 

I am so sick of the blade snobbery on this site. It is offered in the guise of education, but many times it is just plain snobbery.


-P





> For what the Shobu was designed to do. Cleave armour. The Bugei, has the grith needed to do the job. 
> 
> Timo. I would say you and others need to try one out before saying any beater will come close to doing what the Bugei can.

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## Glen C.

P. Gallick

Certainly you have been around long enough to see what is really just another hash slinging session. I see it going on at other "more friendly" sites as well, so I honestly don't understand what may seem to some as an outburst from you that illicicts your opinion of others here as snobs and the forum a host to nothing but.

Let me put this in my perspective for you. I see a thread initiated by you that has a second post asking it be deleted, In wiondering about what other thread you refered to, I find this one, where your only interest in it is apparently displeasure at the conversation amongst the usual suspects. From what I see in it (having now read it all) it is pretty harmless. Opinionated at times but pretty harmless. Actually a lot more cordial than many katana threads have been. Jocular and jovial even :Stick Out Tongue:  :Stick Out Tongue: 

So,,,,, in the ineterests of world peace, i'll just say for all to play nice and not pick on the cheaper swords lines too much(although it all seems pretty chummy to me).

Maybe there was a better way to express you feelings about Lovebell's commentary but it seems more like you'd rather throw a blanket on the whole forum with your thought that indicts the whole community of what you feel is injustice.

I just don't know. ?8^)

Cordially

Glen




> Good grief. Do you work for Bugei? Bugei, Bugei, Bugei. Yes, we all know you have a Bugei. Good for you. You can stop now. 
> 
> And, by Bugei saying in their advertising copy that it was designed to cleave armour does not mean that it was designed to cleave armour. It just makes people go "ooooooo!" and buy the blade. 
> 
> I am so sick of the blade snobbery on this site. It is offered in the guise of education, but many times it is just plain snobbery.
> 
> 
> -P

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## Jerry G.

As for the 1% defective rate, I find that somewhat hard to believe given my own experience with them.  I have purchased over the last year four of their 9260 blades in various lengths and configurations for backyard cutting. One had an acceptably-decent tsuka(30" nagasa Shura) with decent tolerances and was as easily disassembled and snugly-fit as any Hanwei I own...but the other three(21" Shura Ko, 28" Tenchi and 28" DT Kaze) all had cracked, $hitbag tsukas and two of them even came with broken " :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): brass :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): " kashira(ito pulled too tight for knot).  Call me nuts, too, because regardless of this, I _still_ like their blades more than any other at that price point for backyard cutting.  Why run the risk of marring, scratching or God forbid BENDING one of your precious differentially tempered swords when you can get all the jiggly jollies you desire thrashing a $225 beater?

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## P. Gallick

I was, perhaps a bit harsh in picking on Lovebell. I apologize. I say the following in frustration of how certain individuals post on this forum: 

You are right, I have been on this forum long enough to recognize another hash slinging session on beater/premium production swords.

Yes, this thread is pretty harmless. There was no name calling, etc. However, you are also correct when you say it is by the usual suspects. I see these usual suspects and they are always quick to bash the lesser swords on this forum. I have seen many posts from certain people in this thread that never pass up an opportunity to say "look at me! I have a Bugei! or [insert high-end sword here]!" Well, that's great. It is a very nice sword. I would love to own one myself. But enough, already. Yes, we all know that person owns a Bugei because they can't seem to shut up about it. Give it a rest already!

There are many people on this forum who are well educated about swords and many more, including myself, that seek more than they know already. Saying things like "I wouldn't hoe a garden with a Cheness," or "I would be ashamed to put my name on the box" is insulting and haughty. Snobbish. I stand by that. I say that about certain individuals on this forum, not the forum as a whole. This is s superb forum and one of my favorites. It is *much* more civil than many other forums out there. 

Maybe I'm just super-sensitive to snobbish comments. I meant no offense, I just tire of such elitist attitudes. 





> P. Gallick
> 
> Certainly you have been around long enough to see what is really just another hash slinging session. I see it going on at other "more friendly" sites as well, so I honestly don't understand what may seem to some as an outburst from you that illicicts your opinion of others here as snobs and the forum a host to nothing but.
> 
> Let me put this in my perspective for you. I see a thread initiated by you that has a second post asking it be deleted, In wiondering about what other thread you refered to, I find this one, where your only interest in it is apparently displeasure at the conversation amongst the usual suspects. From what I see in it (having now read it all) it is pretty harmless. Opinionated at times but pretty harmless. Actually a lot more cordial than many katana threads have been. Jocular and jovial even
> 
> So,,,,, in the ineterests of world peace, i'll just say for all to play nice and not pick on the cheaper swords lines too much(although it all seems pretty chummy to me).
> 
> Maybe there was a better way to express you feelings about Lovebell's commentary but it seems more like you'd rather throw a blanket on the whole forum with your thought that indicts the whole community of what you feel is injustice.
> ...

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## MRusso

> Maybe I'm just super-sensitive to snobbish comments. I meant no offense, I just tire of such elitist attitudes.


I personally find quite strange of someone being elitist because of an production sword like bugei.   :Confused:  :drool:

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## Bogdan M.

> I personally find quite strange of someone being elitist because of an production sword like bugei.


I agree, it's just snobism, no elitism here  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## P. Gallick

> I personally find quite strange of someone being elitist because of an production sword like bugei.


Good point! Bugei is not the end-all-be-all of the sword.

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## Glen C.

> I agree, it's just snobism, no elitism here


We probably all fall into a category of perspectives, one way or another.

I actually thought Lovebell (and I say this as a long time spectator of the production katana threads) was a Last Legend advocate, if there was a real label that could apply. I'll admit to not following it a great deal the past couple of years but there seems to be an awful lot less of the "is too, is not, mine's better, is not, is too" type bickering.


Let it all just go back to shobu piejammer guy type sword thingies and if the conversation isn't going your way, pick another channerl, show, thread.

Timo, you're in charge.:rolleyes" Take it easy on the old farts, ok?

Cheers

Hotspur; _whatever hidden gems there are seem still to be a matter of the eye of the beholder_

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## Bogdan M.

I might have expressed myself badly. I wasn't aiming at anybody with my joke, what I wanted to point out is just that going with bugei doesn't necessarily mean elitism.

I don't know Lovebell well enough to qualify her and in any case I consider arguments "ad personam" as a poor way of proving one's point...

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## Andrew Thornton

Too true...Bugei is not the messiah of production swords....cuz that distinction goes to MAS!!!! Just kidding. I always considered Bugei to be beginners high end swords. Never really liked Hanwei simply because i got burned badly by their lack of quality control. I've never owned a Dynasty Forge blade so i can't comment on them. Bugei, by the way, is tough as hell to get a sword from as they are almost always sold out. And i've heard some horror stories about Dynasty Forge's customer service. MAS does custom jobs and i was gonna call their reps to see just how custom they go. Imagine a shobu with proper blade geometry made from L6.

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## Glen C.

> I might have expressed myself badly. I wasn't aiming at anybody with my joke, what I wanted to point out is just that going with bugei doesn't necessarily mean elitism.
> 
> I don't know Lovebell well enough to qualify her and in any case I consider arguments "ad personam" as a poor way of proving one's point...


Oh, no. I didn't read it that way at all. :Big Grin:  it's just that we are no longer talking about swords at all and it might as well be a chat room conversation.

What ever happened to the hairy zuchhinis being everyone's favorite ?8^)

Ok, you can be in charge until Timo wakes up/logs in.

Cheers

Hotspur; _what a whacky crew, I tell you what_

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## Bogdan M.

> MAS does custom jobs and i was gonna call their reps to see just how custom they go. Imagine a shobu with proper blade geometry made from L6.


Well back to sword talk.

I think their manager has an account on SFI and they have very reliable service.

On the other hand, it depends what you mean by "proper geometry". I like their hand polish, but wide blades with thickness between 5-6 mm? Very far from traditional standards... I personally prefer the bugei geometry, although MAS blades have that super life warranty.

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## Andrew Thornton

Sorry, guess i should have been a bit more specific. By proper geometry i mean the shinogi traveling the length of the blade, all the way to the tip, as well as the curvature of the blade starting farther down. Take a look at the pics peeps have been posting here and thats what i meant.

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## Bogdan M.

Ah, I see what you meant.

But still their geometry is not very traditional. In this thread we said it's something like the praying mantis from hanwei, basically shinogi zukuri without yokote. Take a look here:
http://www.martialartswords.com/prod...b0c0c9a0f871e5

I don't think they go as custom as to change that geometry into a traditional shobu, I'm not sure they know how. Anyway, I have asked them sometime ago if they can make an ikubi (shorter) kissaki and they said they wouldn't be confident the result is good. Of course, I appreciated the sincerity, but ikubi kissaki is not a big difference from chu kissaki. This means a proper shobu geometry from their kuroyuri is much harder to obtain IMO.

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## Timo Qvintus

> Timo, you're in charge.  Take it easy on the old farts, ok?


Me? What'd I do?  :Confused:  

..except get pre-sale tickets to see Maiden next summer.. 

EDIT: see my post on pg.1 of this thread, there's pic of a MAS "shobu"; pretty much shinogi-zukuri without counter-polished kissaki

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## Andrew Thornton

That's their competition cutting geometry, Bog. I think it has a wider plane, similer to the cheness SGC. Not at all traditional. They have traditional style blades, which is what im gonna be getting. I'm gonna order a custom sword. No silver though. I'm a silver invester and i can tell you they are charging $200 for what looks like $30 worth of silver. And i definetly have to have a full black same wrap...cuz once you go black, you never go back!!!

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## Timo Qvintus

I'm giving this old thread a bump since we had such a nice discussion about production-shobu's.. On page#1 I made a comment on how the new Paul Chen "Mantis" looks like. Well, now there are actual items out there and with better pictures is looks quite a bit different!
http://www.samurai-sword-shop.com/sl...slideshow.html

I also now have a in-hand picture of Oni's shobu:

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## michael wilson

Yeah I see what you mean by this pic Timo  - its definitely _not_
like an iris leaf at all  :Wink: 

BTW  - what fender is that in the backgrouind , a strat or a telecaster ?

 :Big Grin: 

Mick

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## Timo Qvintus

What do you think of the PC Mantis? That looks like a bad baby, done in L6 no less. Monster, monster..

Oh, and it's a strat.  :Smilie:

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## Gary S

Stratocasters...YEAH BABY!...Got two of "em myself...

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## Travis Nicko

Never seen a tele with a big ol' headstock like that! :Wink:

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## michael wilson

nice clear pic of the cheness shobu kissaki in the foreground  - the backgrounds so blurry its a miracle my old eyes distinguished any fender headstock at all :Big Grin:  


Timo - do you see how the shinogi looks like its going to go all the way up the tip but then you can clearly see a sudden turn off towards the mune resulting almost in a poorly formed ko-shinogi , 

I wonder if the shobu was rushed into production and if future generations of the cheness shobu will address the premature termination of the shinogi ?

Mick

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## Timo Qvintus

First things first; it's not a Cheness shobu, but Oni Forge shobu

Second, that's a Squier Strat, a "budget"-line of Fender's. Although I *HAVE* seen Fender Strats with a headstock this big.

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## michael wilson

Oni Shobu eh?

1st time ive seen the kissaki up close  - did you get my point about the shinogi termination though ?

Mick

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## Timo Qvintus

> Oni Shobu eh?
> 
> 1st time ive seen the kissaki up close  - did you get my point about the shinogi termination though ?
> 
> Mick


Yup, I see it. The further you look at the blade the less prominent the change is, though. If the shinogi would have terminated at the very tip of the blade it would have looked very nice. Here's another shot of the tip, now with a bit of monouchi to go!  :Big Grin:

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## Gary S

> First things first; it's not a Cheness shobu, but Oni Forge shobu
> 
> Second, that's a Squier Strat, a "budget"-line of Fender's. Although I *HAVE* seen Fender Strats with a headstock this big.


Until 1966, Stratocasters had a small headstock. After CBS bought them out, they went to a large headstock 'til 1980 or so when Fender had a major revision of product lines. Tellys have always had that funky looking "tele" headstock. 
  Interestingly enough, Squier originally had TWO product lines. (I'm not sure if this is still true or not.) One, the budget line, was made for the U.S. The other, which was meant for the export market (primarily Japan if memory serves me correctly) had much higher quality products. I have one of those Strats I purchased around '85 or so..it's Fiesta Red- one of Fender's cooler custom colors. It has the smaller headstock and the old 4 bolt neck instead of the 3 bolt Microtilt that the Fenders from that time period had.

On the whole "shobu" subject, has anybody who actually practices JSA used one of these? I saw an antique Shobu when I first started collecting. I would have bought it on the spot except someone had removed the rust off it with a grinder. I've liked them ever since, but I'm guessing your noto and nukitsuke had better be pretty clean if you want to keep your left hand intact.

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## Timo Qvintus

> On the whole "shobu" subject, has anybody who actually practices JSA used one of these? I saw an antique Shobu when I first started collecting. I would have bought it on the spot except someone had removed the rust off it with a grinder. I've liked them ever since, but I'm guessing your noto and nukitsuke had better be pretty clean if you want to keep your left hand intact.


I'm a "JSA guy" but I don't practice with shinken yet.. least of all with shobu!

(well, "least of all with kissaki-moroha" to be precise..  :Stick Out Tongue: )

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## Timo Qvintus

BTW, here's a preview of Dynasty's upcoming shobu:



Dunno why but IMO the overall shape looks a bit weird?  :Confused:

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## Benjamin P.

> BTW, here's a preview of Dynasty's upcoming shobu:
> 
> 
> 
> Dunno why but IMO the overall shape looks a bit weird?


To me, it doesn't look very graceful at all.  There is no fumbari and no taper to the kissaki (don't know that term yet), and the tsuka looks closer to a Hanwei piece because it's so straight relative to the curvature of the blade.

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## Timo Qvintus

Could someone post pics (or a link to pics) of LL shobu and full blade length shots of Bugei Shobu?

Now that I think of it, outlines of PC Mantis blade look pretty close to the nihonto on page one.. Not graceful, but..  :Cool:

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## Benjamin P.

I didn't even know that LL had a shobu...  :Confused:   Are you thinking of the Taketoshi?  I think that one is basically the same as Oni Forge's Uno-kubi...

Anyway, to me, this is the way a shobu blade "should be"... maybe it's just personal preference.  But notice how the taper of the blade to kissaki (what is that term anyway?) is continuous throughout the length....  I really like that look.  Very sleek and deadly and graceful.

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## Timo Qvintus

I think the term you're looking for is fumbari?

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## Benjamin P.

> I think the term you're looking for is fumbari?


No...  I don't think that's what fumbari is (at least, not the way I understood it when I read this):  

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/kissaki.html#FUMBARI

I'm looking for the term that means gradual taper toward the kissaki.

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## Karl J

> I think the term you're looking for is fumbari?


...Fumbari is the right term.

-Karl

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## Benjamin P.

> ...Fumbari is the right term.
> 
> -Karl


"A large width at the base and narrow head doesn't mean it is a fumbari. 
Such form is just a "wide base and narrow head".
Fumbari is not a matter of width but it is a matter of the rate of change.  
Fumbari is a conscious width and thickness that becomes larger at the base."

That's from the "Usagiya" site...  I'm just assuming that they know what they're talking about, and also since they are native Japanese speakers.  Perhaps something is getting lost in translation, but I am positive fumbari is not the term I'm looking for.

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## Karl J

> "A large width at the base and narrow head doesn't mean it is a fumbari. 
> Such form is just a "wide base and narrow head".
> Fumbari is not a matter of width but it is a matter of the rate of change.  
> Fumbari is a conscious width and thickness that becomes larger at the base."
> 
> That's from the "Usagiya" site...  I'm just assuming that they know what they're talking about, and also since they are native Japanese speakers.  Perhaps something is getting lost in translation, but I am positive fumbari is not the term I'm looking for.


*Fumbari is not a matter of width but it is a matter of the rate of change.  
Fumbari is a conscious width and thickness that becomes larger at the base."
*

Fumbari is used to describe the profile taper in width from the machi to the kissaki over the length of the blade...

It is plain as day from the site you yourself quoted...

I fail to see what you aren't grasping about the use of the term.

-Karl

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## Karl J

This blade has moderate fumbari


In this blade it is much more pronounced.


Pictures courtesy of Aoi Art

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## Benjamin P.

> *Fumbari is not a matter of width but it is a matter of the rate of change.  
> Fumbari is a conscious width and thickness that becomes larger at the base."
> *
> 
> Fumbari is used to describe the profile taper in width from the machi to the kissaki over the length of the blade...
> 
> It is plain as day from the site you yourself quoted...
> 
> I fail to see what you aren't grasping about the use of the term.
> ...




"Every blade has a form where the width and the thickness becomes larger *toward the tang*.
Fumbari is a form that has a large rate of change *on the base*." 

The red lines in the above picture from the site tell the same story.  There is absolutely nothing in the description about taper from machi all the way to the kissaki except what you're adding/projecting...   :Confused:   Seems to me that fumbari is just what happens in the last 1/4 or 1/5 of the blade at the machi, not over the length of the whole blade.

Re. your pictures....  again, the site says: 

"A large width at the base and narrow head doesn't mean it is a fumbari.  Such form is just a "wide base and narrow head".

 :Confused:

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## michael wilson

The amount of tapering from motohaba to sakihaba gradually along the length of the blade .

even amongst production swords different fumbari is easily discernible  - 

and I mean no disrespect at all  - honestly I dont but I am inclined to agree with all the polishers,collectors and JSA people ive spoken with over the years who all have the same definition of fumbari as Karl  :Wink: 

you win some , you lose some 

will it really matter 100 years from now  :Big Grin:

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## C. Dayton

Does anyone has more detailed pictures of the Cheness shobu?

The pictures on their site are kind of small.

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## Maximus L.

Here's a detailed review for Cheness Shobu for anyone interested.

http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/shobu-zukuri.html

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## Vincent A. Finizio

Paul Chen's "The Great Wave" with its long (o) kissaki...is far superior in design and overall strength than that of the needle-point (breakoff real quick if you screw up) Cheness "Ayame" (same manufacturer...better katana).

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## Timo Qvintus

> Paul Chen's "The Great Wave" with its long (o) kissaki...is far superior in design and overall strength than that of the needle-point (breakoff real quick if you screw up) Cheness "Ayame" (same manufacturer...better katana).


Two different Paul Chen's, mate..  :Wink:  As well as two different sugata altogether.

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## Remy B

Fumbari would refer to the part above the machis that is slightly larger than the rest and taper gently for a couple of inches, fumbari is rarely seen on suriage and never seen on osuriage, but just because a sword is ubu doesnt mean it obligatory have fumbari.

I do not think that it apply to the entire shape and towards the kissaki.

Timo, i dont like the tsuka on that one, too straight with such a deep sori dont fit (my opinion here).

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## Lovebell Forrest

> Good grief. Do you work for Bugei? Bugei, Bugei, Bugei. Yes, we all know you have a Bugei. Good for you. You can stop now. 
> 
>  It just makes people go "ooooooo!" and buy the blade. 
> 
> -P



No I do not work for them, I know them well. Ive bought their goods, and like other swords, Ive gotten rid of most but my Bugei, and LL.

I bought thier Shobu because the other ones where to heavy for me.

I can not see why others would want to buy the beater class swords and try an compare them to the higher quality ones.  This is like comparing these production swords to custom ones. Jsut not possible

After being gone for a long time, and reading this, I was not in a good mood when I wrote a lot of this. so sorry.

BTW after reviewing the pictures here, Id say that both the Bugei and LL geometry are way off from true Shobu Zukuri

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## k.moralee

> Heh, I'm not a big fan of shobu myself, but I feel the same, with the bugei blade coming second. Too bad the polish on the cheness is, well, cheap, otherwise it would make a really good looking blade.


in this situation, apart from getting the blade professionally polished, what could you do to improve it. i've heard people mention "quick and dirty" hybrid polishing, what is that?

thanks

kris

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## KevinT

> "Every blade has a form where the width and the thickness becomes larger *toward the tang*.
> Fumbari is a form that has a large rate of change *on the base*." 
> 
> The red lines in the above picture from the site tell the same story.  There is absolutely nothing in the description about taper from machi all the way to the kissaki except what you're adding/projecting...    Seems to me that fumbari is just what happens in the last 1/4 or 1/5 of the blade at the machi, not over the length of the whole blade.
> 
> Re. your pictures....  again, the site says: 
> 
> "A large width at the base and narrow head doesn't mean it is a fumbari.  Such form is just a "wide base and narrow head".


what you are saying is correct  Ben -it is not the profile taper of the blade.

----------

