# Communities > Antique Arms & Armour Community > Chinese, South-East Asia (CSEA) >  Chinese Military Sword w Western Influences-Help to ID

## Alex Tay

Hi Everyone, I am a Chinese from Singapore and have acquired a Chinese military sword that I have been trying to identified. Appreciate if anyone out there can help or have seen something similar.  

I suspect this was made during the period when China was trying to modernise late 1800s/early 1900s before the war in 1949 where the KMT (KuoMingTang/Nationalist; present day Taiwan; ROC) government was formed. 

This sword has heavy western influences but has a oriental/chinese motif on the grip and scabbard - it featured a few mythical creatures, "QiLin" around it playing with a ball. 

Thanks for everyone interests and help!
Alex

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## Jcwater

传统的狮子滚绣球图案,应该不是官方的~

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## Doug Mullane

Hi Jc,

Could you please either edit your above post into English or repost your response in English?  This will help many forumites here understand your response.  Thanks.

Sincerely,

Doug Mullane

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## Alex Tay

According to JCwaters, he is saying that the Lion (or mythical creature Chi Lin)and the ball (or Globe) does not indicate that this is a government/officer (can't literally translate full meaning) sword.  

JC - Can you elaborate in English? I am also curious on your observations. To me, this is definately a Military Sword. I dont think other ranks/Non Commissioned Officers are issued with such swords.

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## luva pendarvis

this sword looks a lot like my sword but with different markings.  I don't have a lion the middle, designs look more like a sun or a ball with lines all around it.
it was brought back here in 1934

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## Klas Larsson

Like some already said, they look more like chinese lions. And also because they are pictured playing with a ball, and in a pair. The Qi Lin can be seen here at wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qilin, and they are hoofed animals with horns, and scales.

Can it be that it is the Lion rank of an official that are symbolized here? The Lion rank is the second highest military rank. That was also symbolized by a rank badge on the chest. And it looks like a high quality sword, fitting a high ranking officer.

The sword style must be a military sword, this is not a civilians weapon. The sword dont have the Gou Ming Tang/GMT sun symbol, so maybe older than GMT and the republican period, 1912? Or they didn't have them in the start? The GMT swords I have seen only in saber style, and simple machine made blades, (much like Japanese WWII swords). But this is a straight blade, and it gives and older impression, and one of work, with it's shape and fine fullers.

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## josh stout

> Like some already said, they look more like chinese lions. And also because they are pictured playing with a ball, and in a pair. The Qi Lin can be seen here at wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qilin, and they are hoofed animals with horns, and scales.
> 
> Can it be that it is the Lion rank of an official that are symbolized here? The Lion rank is the second highest military rank. That was also symbolized by a rank badge on the chest. And it looks like a high quality sword, fitting a high ranking officer.
> 
> The sword style must be a military sword, this is not a civilians weapon. The sword dont have the Gou Ming Tang/GMT sun symbol, so maybe older than GMT and the republican period, 1912? Or they didn't have them in the start? The GMT swords I have seen only in saber style, and simple machine made blades, (much like Japanese WWII swords). But this is a straight blade, and it gives and older impression, and one of work, with it's shape and fine fullers.


I agree with Klas that the fittings are in a style only associated with military weapons.  And the guess at the rank sounds quite plausible, and is well researched.  However, as Klas has also pointed out, this blade is definitely not a standard military weapon.  The handle/guard conforms to military regulations, but the blade appears to be that of a jian reconfigured for a military saber hilt.  At the very least this would be a custom weapon befitting a higher-level officer.  As a custom weapon, there might indeed be some deviations from standard military designations.  (Note; I am taking the provenance of this sword at face value.  If there is any more information on the provenance, it would be very useful.)  What about embassy/consular officials, or military attachés?  They might have high-ranking swords with less rigorous regulations.
Josh

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## Jcwater

OK~I have very low english understanding skill...

so see this one

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## Jcwater

and

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## Jcwater

.....

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## Jcwater

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## Jcwater

这里应该有人懂中文，剑以及我发的那个皮带扣都带有浓郁的中国传统色彩。

1、不是个人订制的产物，应该是成系列批量生产的物品。
2、目前没有任何可查阅的资料表明这种剑究竟是不是清朝新军？北洋军队？或者民国军队的制式刀剑  。
3、中国素来有军人赠送武器为礼物的传统，不排除这是一种非制式的礼物刀剑的可能性。

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## Klas Larsson

Hi Jcwters, Thank you for your contribution, this is clearly the same style of sword, and the Lions is seen better, so we can be pretty sure it's not a later fitted blade, on the first one, by Alex if one just like it shows up. And the lack of Guomintang symbol makes me think it's a little bit earlier, maybe not pre 1911, but at least earlier than the machine made dao blades with such symbols.
Anybody know of books on late military swords of China? There should be   texts from the time on styles for different ranks.

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## john chiam

on JC's statement...
1. this sword not a custom one since there are other just like it (sword was produced in certin amount).
2. his search not had any indication wither is from ching dynasty , military group from the northern terriory, or KMT.
3. in china, it's a military custom to give sword as award for achievement, in this case it may not be from others in rank but from a none official channel.
I hope this helps. J.

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