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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2009 12:08:49 GMT
During the seige of Abergavenny 1182, Welsh arrows penetrated a oak door 4in thick. Thier iron points just showing on the inside of the door.
Do you think you could duplicate this. It dosen't say what the range was. I'm not doubting this could be done. I know form using modern bows arrows and alot of penetration.
The Welah bows were made of elm from what the book said.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2009 21:55:03 GMT
Was this an acount from Gerald of Wales? I've read this before and don't doubt it could be done either. Could be quite expensive though as you'll have to experiment with a range of draw weights and arrows.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2009 5:13:18 GMT
Yes Gerald de Barri (Giraldus Cambrensis) dosen't say draw weight, I would guess 90lbs. Just said 6ft bow yard long shaft. Hard to believe anyone back then would have a 36inch draw. I have long arms all I can do is 32 inchies. Don't think there were many 6 footers back in 1182.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2009 22:14:38 GMT
Yes Gerald de Barri (Giraldus Cambrensis) dosen't say draw weight, I would guess 90lbs. Just said 6ft bow yard long shaft. Hard to believe anyone back then would have a 36inch draw. I have long arms all I can do is 32 inchies. Don't think there were many 6 footers back in 1182. There seems to be some debate over the length of a 'clothyard' to which the shafts are measured. The English Warbow society uses 32 inch war arrows so I'm inclined to go with that. As to the draw weight I think it may be more than 90 pounds. I have a 90 pound bow and though it's quite strong, I believe these Welsh guys could handle quite a bit more. Of course that's just a guess, hence why you'd need a few bows of varying draw weight for an accurate test!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2009 22:58:59 GMT
Yes Gerald de Barri (Giraldus Cambrensis) dosen't say draw weight, I would guess 90lbs. Just said 6ft bow yard long shaft. Hard to believe anyone back then would have a 36inch draw. I have long arms all I can do is 32 inchies. Don't think there were many 6 footers back in 1182. There seems to be some debate over the length of a 'clothyard' to which the shafts are measured. The English Warbow society uses 32 inch war arrows so I'm inclined to go with that. As to the draw weight I think it may be more than 90 pounds. I have a 90 pound bow and though it's quite strong, I believe these Welsh guys could handle quite a bit more. Of course that's just a guess, hence why you'd need a few bows of varying draw weight for an accurate test! The longbows and arrows from the Mary Rose, even though it sank some 300 years after the events you’re talking about, are probably the best guide we have to medieval longbows and arrows. The arrows varied quite a lot in length from 26” to 32” and if I remember correctly the average length was around the 30” mark. As for the poundage of the bows, some of the bows of the Mary Rose were in good enough condition to actually test, and they had an average draw weight of something like 100lbs. but as these had probably been weekend by centuries of salt water replicas where produced which had draw weights between 150-200lbs. im not suggesting that the top end of that weight would be common but I sould imagin that some one who has trained all their lives, would be comfotable with drawing a bow well over 90lbs
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2009 14:07:39 GMT
I just got the draw weight from things I've read. Nothing personal but the man who could draw and hold a 200lb draw would have some huge arms.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2009 14:44:03 GMT
I've seen an arrow from an "english long bow" go clear through a stop sign and 100 yards (I think it was) but a 4 inch oak door would really be impressive!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2009 17:06:27 GMT
Some one should contact myth busters on this one im calling this one a myth LOL
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2009 17:10:18 GMT
I just got the draw weight from things I've read. Nothing personal but the man who could draw and hold a 200lb draw would have some huge arms. Their shoulders and upper back would probably be pretty beefy, moreso than their arms- when you draw the arrow back, it isn't an arm-centric motion, it brings in your lats, the girdle, upper shoulder- mostly upper back I would think. I could be wrong, of course.
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Apr 16, 2009 17:13:53 GMT
Actually there is skeletal evidence of bowmen having significantly denser and larger bone growth in their bow arm....
When I have more time I'll try to dif up a reference.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2009 17:53:34 GMT
If the welsh were using bodkins then it wouldn't surprise me they could drill through a 4 inch oak door, that isn't that thick if you think about it, bodkins were designed to punch through armour, which is a great deal tougher than an oak door. Also welsh longbows were anywhere from 120 lbs up into the low 200s and if you were doing it all your life it probably wasn't that amazing a feat. The welsh are known for their use of the bodkin as early as AD 633.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2009 22:06:39 GMT
If the welsh were using bodkins then it wouldn't surprise me they could drill through a 4 inch oak door, that isn't that thick if you think about it, bodkins were designed to punch through armour, which is a great deal tougher than an oak door. Also welsh longbows were anywhere from 120 lbs up into the low 200s and if you were doing it all your life it probably wasn't that amazing a feat. The welsh are known for their use of the bodkin as early as AD 633. The only problem in sorting out the poundage of old Warbows has been that, since there were so many of them, whether they were Welsh Elm or Spanish or Italian Yew, they were simply tools and no peasant or Yeoman thought to keep their old bows for posterity. I believe Gerald of Wales even described the ugliness of these Elm bows with all the knots still on them.There are a few old bows lying around Engand but the majority of the ones today were found in the Mary Rose. I wouldn't doubt these Welsh guys could pull 120 to 200 pounds as you said. If we have fairly average guys who could do it now surely they could do it then! ;D
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2009 22:08:55 GMT
I just got the draw weight from things I've read. Nothing personal but the man who could draw and hold a 200lb draw would have some huge arms. Their shoulders and upper back would probably be pretty beefy, moreso than their arms- when you draw the arrow back, it isn't an arm-centric motion, it brings in your lats, the girdle, upper shoulder- mostly upper back I would think. I could be wrong, of course. Nope that sounds right 'Drawing in the bow' requires far more back strength than arm strength.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2009 20:03:58 GMT
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ecovolo
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Post by ecovolo on Apr 21, 2009 4:40:08 GMT
When I was in a Renaissance archery guild, a buddy of mine had a bow that he measured at 90+ pounds. He once used a bodkin point and *pierced* a quarter-inch-thick steel breastplate at 30 yards at a Ren Fair we attended. Another time, he shot a sandbag covered in chainmail: it went through the chainmail, through the sandbag, out the chainmail again, and penetrated two inches through the half-inch plywood backing. (The owner of the plate was kind of miffed; he thought our arrows would bounce off .) Going through four-inch-thick oak? I can believe that, easily. Marc-- I had also heard stories of Welsh archers also having slightly torqued rib cages due to constantly using a longbow throughout their lives. --Edward
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2009 4:57:40 GMT
I ever said it couldn't be done did I just wanted someone to dupilcate it I think it would cool to see pictures of it.
That must have been some heavy armour at 1/4 inch thick, or was it just the breastplate.
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ecovolo
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Post by ecovolo on Apr 21, 2009 15:44:58 GMT
That must have been some heavy armour at 1/4 inch thick, or was it just the breastplate. Just the breastplate. I'll admit that my sources could be wrong; it might have been thinner than 1/4 inch-- but I was told it was that thickness, so that's what I'm passing on here . --Edward
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2009 15:20:59 GMT
As far as the draw weight - remember the typical longbowman was training with his bow since he was 12 years old or so - his arm and shoulder muscles would have in effect been developed (specialized in growth) thru his teens and early adulthood for the primary purpose of drawing a longbow (i.e. as stated in an above post, the bones of his "drawing arm" would be thicker/denser and the arms and shoulder muscles would give a star NFL quarterback a run for his money).
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Post by Reisz on May 7, 2009 1:27:38 GMT
This is an Area I have a lot of Interest in but Very little knowledge, thought I would just reference this stuff here; From Wikipedia: ----------------------------------------- "Longbows were difficult to master because the force required to deliver an arrow through the improving armour of medieval Europe was very high by modern standards. Although the draw weight of a typical English longbow is disputed, it was at least 360 N (80 lbf) and possibly more than 650 N (143 lbf) with some high-end estimates at 900N (202 lbf). Considerable practice was required to produce the swift and effective combat shooting required. Skeletons of longbow archers are recognizably deformed, with enlarged left arms and often bone spurs on left wrists, left shoulders and right fingers." ----------------------------------------- It's pretty much just affirmation of what has already been said here but man, Bone Spurs? those are some seriously Gnarly Archers! Referenced from The Great War Bow by Robert Hardy and Matthew Strickland www.amazon.co.uk/Great-Warbow-Robert-Hardy/dp/0750931671I am Ordering a copy of that book some time soon, looks like an Interesting read. -Reisz (apologies if this has already been noted in another thread ;D )
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2009 17:25:27 GMT
I can see the bone spurs. They'd be where the ligaments and tendons are pulling the bone out of shape because they are too tight for any number of reasons. Just above or just below the joint itself.
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