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Post by Kilted Cossack on Mar 7, 2009 16:46:00 GMT
Gents:
I've been looking around, increasingly, towards European military swords, and I was curious when they changed from being good solid swords to being sword like objects.
I understand that military swords ceased to be a factor on the battlefield no later than the mid-19th century, and were probably more symbols of office or rank even then.
Still, I have not overcome the shock and disgust I felt when I learned that the USMC NCO swords and officers swords have (gasp, gulp, shudder) stainless blades. Yes, yes, symbol of office, parade ground wear, and all that. As a former Marine, I am simply . . . annoyed . . . that the sword isn't functional.
Were military swords still functional until fairly recently?
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Post by hotspur on Mar 7, 2009 17:31:29 GMT
In America, particularly, swords become less of useful purpose. However, sword continues worldwide in the field as operational weapons even past the mid 20th century. Consider that even lancers were still being fielded into the early 20th century.
There is a good amount of swordly equipment meant for serious use past the 19th century and generally seen more in a mounted or cavalry position, yet fighting weight swords for foot officers continue use into WWI and beyond. Jonathan's work and research with British officer's shows a good amount of carrying them with intent to serve.
One anecdote regarding American use in south east Asia relates a helicopter drop by an officer wielding his saber {unspecified or qualified as true}. The American Peking Marines were fielding the Patton sword until their departure of WWII. One of the other forumites on SFI was recently discussing the departure of cavalry use for swords entirely but iirc from another note that experimental swords were still being drated/designed into the 1920s-1930s.
Consider also that the U.S. Army brought back the curved "light" cavalry saber because the short lived 1872 swords were truly useless. The 1906 cavalry swords are the same build as the American Civil War "1860" except made with iron hilts instead of brass. also anecdotal that those swords were produced for Ames with German blades. the 1860 or light cavalry sword was carried/issued by troopers right through the 19th century but actual use was often much less than depicted in movies.
Looking at European sword carry does range from uniform use to mounted artillery and even fairly heavily made hussars. Both steel curiass armour and swords remained in French use right up into WWI. The French 1822 sabres of both trooper and officers lasted in use to the 1880s, with the 1854 straight swords even longer than that.
Virtually all the European countries continued with serious swords into the 20th century.
As far as ACW deaths go, sickness and artillery amounted to the biggest losses aside from large line volleys (actually very few of the large battles involved such. Sword and bayonet casualties are virtually nil in that war by comparison.
There are a couple of pristine 1906 examples available right now with extras. Another quite pretty one sans scabbard for less than $250.
Cheers
Hotspur; bargains have fallen to greed regarding high prices for anything of possibly ACW use
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Post by hotspur on Mar 7, 2009 18:01:00 GMT
I know I am rambling and probably missing the last paragrah of the original question. There are very few American military swords that were not plated, or later stainless, except for the aforementioned Patton and 1906. The current offerings from WKC are listed as tempered to the low 50s but are not meant to be sharpened. the other three or four suppliers for American models are lesser in quality than that. Ames does offer non-stainless swords but are probably of India blades, with cutlery and castings said to be in house. Look to the links on their left for a price list and particulars. www.amessword.com/My impression is that modern Marines NCO swords are let out for use/practice/drill and not personal swords. I'm remembering a couple of visitors of my table at one show and afellow grabbed my replica sabre and was doing parade drills. "MArines, huh? I asked and yes it was a young corporal that had been briefly introduced to the nco sword. There are not many 20th century examples of the Marine nco sword out there for sale and those are typical of the modern trends of plated or stainless. There are some 19th century Marine mameluke swords but are hard to come by and pricey. For any of the other American swords and others for use I would point to www.legendaryarms.com for a wide variety. The unetched foot (or is it naval) officer sword is what appears a pretty good price and these swords are close to what became the MArine nco in the last of the 19th century. There is also www.chevalierdauvergne.com/My usual thoughts of "What are you going to do with it?" comes to mind. There is a fairly pretty foot officer sword at Shiloh right now for less than $400 (no scabbard) www.shilohrelics.com/cgi-bin/Display_Items_Quick.asp?Cat=145&Sub=639 and those are really the tip of the iceberg for period swords. Checking the MArine noters will specify when the NCOs were given the foot officer sword in exchange for getting the mameluke back for commissioned officers. the mameluke had been withdrawn in the 1850s, iirc and then petitioned back to the Marines in the 1870s. Cheers Hotspur; probably more information than needed sometimes |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2009 20:59:47 GMT
Hello Kiltedcossack
I'd like to add some infos I got from Harold Petersen book about american swords (can't remember the exact title and the spelling of the author's name, but it is a well-known and appreciated book on american swords).
In the mid-19th century, the U.S. army produced one infantry sword for officers (the 1850 field officer sword or something like that) which was well-liked has a fighting weapon ; it had a long slightly curved and quite sturdy blade. This sword was replaced right before the Civil War by a new infantry officer sword, which was little more than a good-looking but non-functionnal smallsword. The author claims that this sword was often swapped with it predecessor by infantry officers who expected to use their sword on the field.
So, overall, I think some swords were still appreciated and used has ''good solid weapons'' in wartime.
Just my 2 cents on this subject.
I am also saddened to see the use of non-functionnal military swords, but in our era of ICBMs and high-powered jet fighters, who needs a sword.
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Mar 7, 2009 21:41:59 GMT
Hotspur:
Thank you kindly for your responses. I was hoping that this would catch your eye. I hasten to point out that I have attempted to read through the archives here and learn what I can, before repeating oft-asked questions.
I was concerned, in reviewing some of the imported reproductions, with the lack of a proper distal taper. Further, I suspected that on the "upgraded versions" most of the extra money went into fittings, vice an upgraded blade.
I had looked, several times, at Chevalier d'Auvergne. The level of fit and finish seems fine, and the prices aren't unreasonable. Is it safe to assume that these are functional (ahem) "real" swords?
What, you ask, is the sword for? In all honesty, it will probably be like Chief Dan George's piece of hard rock candy in "The Outlaw Josey Wales" . . . "it's just for looking through." I will doubtless flourish it dramatically (but safely) when I watch movies rife with swordplay. It will be studied on, in terms of distal taper. I suppose, if a recent enough vintage blade could be found, some light cutting would be in order (water bottles).
I was never introduced to the sabre/saber manual of arms, as I never attended Corporal's Course (despite being a corporal). It had been in my mind that, purely for nostalgia, I should buy an NCO sword . . . but I can't quite bring myself to do it if they have a stainless steel blade. (A sword, even a dress sword, with a stainless steel blade is, to my mind, like issuing a water pistol for officers and SNCOs to carry.) If I could find a blade that approximated the NCO sword, I have every confidence that I can find some USMC saber drill materials to study, especially since I have a friend who is still on active duty and has picked up his rocker.
I have read that stainless steel blades exceeding approximately a foot in length tend to crack unpredictably. What are the drawbacks of a chromed blade? Would this affect the metallurgic properties of the steel?
Oddly enough, my interest in the ACW is fairly limited, although I have the impression that the swords issued by the contending parties were more or less state of the art for the times.
Finally, the Presley O'Bannion Mameluke sword was ALMOST enough to get me to enter the service as a "zero." My recruiter assured me that if I did so, I would go straight to JAG, so I enlisted and learned Russian instead. Oh, and I really have a weakness for the Russian/cossack shashka.
Once more, thanks for the information. I really appreciate it, and now I know more than I did yesterday.
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Mar 7, 2009 21:44:21 GMT
Sebastian:
Thanks! I agree that the sword plays no offensive role for the US military today (nor, probably, should it). However, it irks me immensely to specify a non-functional and dangerous change to what was, previously, a combat arm. It's like issuing ceramic bayonets, harrumph, harrumph.
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Post by hotspur on Mar 7, 2009 22:40:09 GMT
Oft mentioned and a bit of an old wives tale is That, without looking at some facts about the steel and sword lengths blades that do just fine if properly heat treated. Generally, there are two types of stainless steel swords available. Those that are brittle and those that are soft. Yet, I could point to folk like Barry Dawson, Jerry Hossom and even the somewhat legendary Bob Engnath that have worked sword length swords without issues. Barry somewhat prefered 440c at one time and scoffed at a customer once while doing a quite deep flex while showing the customer it was not an issue. So much mythology has grown regarding the high chromium steels as useless that these things we read every day tend to clutter the white noise while blocking out the truth. WKC touts low 50s for their "stainless" steels. However, they do not endorse the swords for cutting use. You decide (big evil grin and a wink to that). Chevalier d'Auvergne I have never dealt with in person but they will make the sword you are looking for. It is unlikely they ship sharps but you might inquire of that. Likewise, the swords from Ames are up to snuff but again, not shipped sharp. I mentioned the older foot officer swords because it was a progression that went to commissioned officers and then allowing the version to NCOs instead of the rather useless 1840nco, much like we see across the board, with some small variation. As they were fashioned after the French swords, looking for economically priced antiques might be of interest. The economy sword I listed at Shiloh was likely made late in the 19th century (regardless of any claim) and not atypical of what one sees on the market www.gundersonmilitaria.com had a couple/few Marine ncos up last I looked. Many military swords for American use were plated up into the 1950s, when we start to see more and more "stainless" used for these swords. Edging a plated blade will degrade over time and the scars of back yarders (of all eras) not uncommon. Neither would keep someone from running one through but if a cutter is desired, reproductions are a fine outlet. Cheers Hotspur; the grousing about stainless will never end and quite possibly be rarely truly understood until really considering the facts |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2009 1:46:42 GMT
I think you have a good point about stainless, Glen. I think the majority of stainless steel swords on the market are of the less robust variety and give the material a bad name. As Glen (Hotspur) says, the sword began its decline in the US decades (if not a half-century) before Europe. Turn of the century---circa 1900--officer (and Marine NCO) swords were already quite dainty. I am not sure when stainless steel became a more standard material. That would be a good question for Glen or some of the other collectors of American swords at SFI. In Britain (and many European countries) the sword was still used as a battlefield weapon and not just for pointing out where to fire a rifle. In 1892, just 10 years before the US introduced its final and useless infantry sword, Britain revised its infantry sword blade to make it a strong, thrust-oriented weapon. In 1895 a new steel hilt was introduced--a vast improvement on the long-lived but weaker brass "Gothic" hilt. New patterns--both regulation and experimental--were still being developed through 1912. Swords were still taken seriously. To my knowledge stainless steel never caught on for British swords, although maybe WKC is making theirs out of it these days. The British preferred plating the blade to changing the material, and even that was not done across the board. It was the hilt that was plated. Most of my Victorian officers' swords show evidence of being service sharpened. Even if they were never used in anger, the officers were clearly prepared should the need arise. The 2nd Anglo-Boer War probably marks the beginning of the decline of the British infantry officer's sword as a battlefield weapon, but officers were still wearing their swords in the field in at least the early years of WWI. Sorry for rambling.  |
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Mar 8, 2009 4:21:18 GMT
Jonathon Hopkins:
The comments from both Hotspur and yourself are exactly the sort of information I was hoping to elicit.
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Post by hotspur on Mar 8, 2009 18:24:32 GMT
I think I borrowed this from something Jonathan had presented but it has surfaced elsewhere. "Whatcha doin'?" Boer War Sharpening There are oodles and oodles of stories and sites for the [url=http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=Peking+Marines&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8[/url] Peking Marines[/url] I hope that links  Another note about WKC is that they can easily do just about anything for a price. Their blue and gilt blades are not of the evil bane assigned to stainless. the Barry Dawson anecdote is pretty funny because the soon to be sword pappy was going on about the merits of traditional katana and then Barry grunts a blade over in a serious bend, only to relax. www.dawsonknives.com/Jerry Hossom likes to play with exotic steels but some of his wakazashi length espadas were of 154 stainless ( I love that steel in several knives I have) www.hossom.com/ Plating blades overlapped with the use of rostfrei beginning in the early 20th century. Some WWII era swords were still plated in Germany but the trend by postwar was definitely stainless for the masses of swords they continue to make. I'm actually eyeing a minty, minty USA 1902 that is from Horster just prewar axis and that one is stainless (circa 1930s?). It's down their on my list but is a nice long example of that one. By the time the mameluke was making it back in the Marine fold, later 19th century American swords tended to go skinny. None of the 1872 regulations were very well loved. Although, the mid weight widths up to about WWI are pretty swords, if not quite as practical. The modern American naval sword is a real attenna width, even compared to the regulation Marine NCO. The French and German made 19th century foot officer swords that are similar find the market wallowing in them. Stay away from most of the Civil War references/sales for them because of that but something like the Shiloh offering is probably a fair retail price. Le Hussard www.lehussard.fr/english/and MD Long www.michaeldlong.net/Both are favorite haunts of mine but there are literaly hundreds. Some three hundred of my bookmarks are retail and ebay sellers. Cheers Cheers Hotspur; some pictures and history I keep in mind for this topic |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2009 3:16:59 GMT
Hey kiltedcossack,
I too am a former Marine. I have seen and held some of these modern made military and Marine dress swords, like the Marine Officers' Mamaluke saber. In my mind, they are just junk for parade or what have you with cheap, skinny blades, etc..
But I remember seeing my platoon Lieutenant's Mamaluke saber worn for a ceremony or something one day while in Boot Camp at PI in '74. Being a lover of edged weapons all my life, I lusted after it. I was not far from him when he drew it forth, saluted with it, then put it up along his shoulder. My god what a beautiful sword I thought. And if I remember correctly his was a real sword, with a nice, wide, real, funtional saber blade and the handle was real looking and practical. Not like these fat handled, skinny bladed cheapie mamalukes you see now. I don't know if he had it made just for him or if that was what they issued to officers then, but it was a beauty.
Later,
Freebooter
Alabama
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2009 17:38:43 GMT
Gents: I've been looking around, increasingly, towards European military swords, and I was curious when they changed from being good solid swords to being sword like objects. I understand that military swords ceased to be a factor on the battlefield no later than the mid-19th century, and were probably more symbols of office or rank even then. Still, I have not overcome the shock and disgust I felt when I learned that the USMC NCO swords and officers swords have (gasp, gulp, shudder) stainless blades. Yes, yes, symbol of office, parade ground wear, and all that. As a former Marine, I am simply . . . annoyed . . . that the sword isn't functional. Were military swords still functional until fairly recently? Stainless swords do have their uses...the swords you mentioned, and Hotspur spoke of at length, are no longer used for battle. Its probably cheaper to go stainless, certainly easier to maintain as I'm sure these warriors rarely wear their swords except for some events. I wanted to buy my brother a sword (he received his captaincy in the field in Afghanistan) - and all I could find was stainless steel. AND they're like $245 +!!! |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2009 18:01:42 GMT
“In my opinion, sir, any officer who goes into action without his sword is improperly dressed.” Jack Churchill. I think this guys disagrees with you Ebon Paladin ;D
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2009 18:21:25 GMT
“In my opinion, sir, any officer who goes into action without his sword is improperly dressed.” Jack Churchill. I think this guys disagrees with you Ebon Paladin ;D Federico, Thanks for the quote. I had not heard of Fighting Jack Churchill before. He sounds wonderful! I would love to find his sword... |
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Apr 29, 2009 18:40:42 GMT
Ebon: Congratulations on your brother's promotion! And stainless swords do have their use---hanging on walls. Marines have a long and storied tradition of keeping their weapons clean, including places like jungles during the Pacific Campaign, when they were using corrosive primers. As someone who stood wall locker inspections where your skivvy drawers had to be folded into a 4x6" square with your name properly stamped, I am unwilling to accept the use of stainless steel as a labor saving device, particularly for a drill field weapon. If the Corps decides that the saber or sword no longer has a place, so be it. But a skinny bladed stainless travesty? My humble vote would be, "Thanks, but no thanks." My personal belief regarding military procurement is, "If you're going to issue it, make sure it's functional; if it's not functional, don't issue it."
Freebooter: I had a moment like that at boot camp, about 18 years later. I was broken, and at MRP (Medical Rehabilitation Platoon), and one night about 03 our company commander came in to check on us, in his dress whites, with sword and boat cloak. Man oh man, did I EVER want a Mameluke saber right about then! Admittedly, I was mostly freaked out by having the CO pop in to check on us, and mostly noticed the boat cloak and dress whites . . . but still.
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Apr 29, 2009 18:43:04 GMT
Federico:
Here's to Mad Jack!
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