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Post by randomnobody on Apr 17, 2009 19:06:50 GMT
Well, yeah, you could sharpen them, but I happen to hold to a firm principle that I shouldn't have to butcher a blade to make it able to cut. It should do that when I get it. Add to that the matter of bronze not being the best material for blades anymore, as you said, it's a good bit softer than steel, and I doubt it would even hold a servicible edge without constant maintenance and would worry about potential damage. Sure, bronze handled human flesh and bone, leather, and other bronze fine and dandy in its day...but I don't intend to be cutting any of these things. Ultimately, I view it as a matter of principle. I should be able to buy a blade that is already sharp, so anything blunt is not an option. Certainly others differ and they certainly may. Either way, it's worth noting that these are blunt, and even the best sharpener will not bring out the blade's best.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2009 19:26:32 GMT
Depends on what it is made for; most SLOs as you well know are fit for one purpose. I don't know if that particular smith makes blades for battle- maybe you could talk him into making one sharp?
As for 'even the best sharpener will not bring out the blade's best' - I find that to be incorrect; swords are not forged sharp, they are sharpened afterwards so if one were to take your stance, then NO sword could possibly be at its best since it would've had to have been sharpened first.
Unless you were speaking merely of that one particular kopesh, and even then- I would differ.
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Post by randomnobody on Apr 17, 2009 20:11:59 GMT
Naturally I was aware of how the typical blade is forged. I was referring to most modern "sharpening" processes and tools. Unless somebody spends all day (or multiple days as the case may be) grinding away at metal until everything is just right then it's not going to be as good as had it been done, is it? I certainly won't be doing that to a sword that may not even have been designed for sharp use to begin with, as these pieces. People "sharpening" their Windlasses, Del Tins, etc. makes me cringe, too. I'm weird like that. Besides, if memory serves, these are all cast. I could be missing something, but a cast blade is probably not the best idea. Not really sure how we go from calling these swords usable to referring to SLOs. Perhaps we should make up our minds. Better yet, maybe we should figure out if these are usable or SLOs. I'm not putting my money to it, though.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2009 2:15:08 GMT
Referring to Neil Burridge's creations as SLOs is really insulting, the exacting level of historical accuracy that goes into his weapons is incredible, right down to using the same bronze mixture as the original weapons. Just because you can't go and wail on water bottles and other things it wasn't designed for and which the originals were never intended for doesn't make them SLOs. I am sure these blades are probably up to cutting tatami since it is said to be a flesh like medium. Also all bronze weapons of the past as far as we know were cast.
If you want a khopesh you can hit stuff with talk to Matt Stagmer, I am sure he can make you one.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2009 13:13:58 GMT
SLO? Refresh my memory please. What is this?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2009 14:29:56 GMT
Sword Like Object. Used to refer to swords of poor quality or that are not functional. I think it was coined by Paul Southern.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2009 15:12:05 GMT
Naturally I was aware of how the typical blade is forged. I was referring to most modern "sharpening" processes and tools. Unless somebody spends all day (or multiple days as the case may be) grinding away at metal until everything is just right then it's not going to be as good as had it been done, is it? I certainly won't be doing that to a sword that may not even have been designed for sharp use to begin with, as these pieces. People "sharpening" their Windlasses, Del Tins, etc. makes me cringe, too. I'm weird like that. Besides, if memory serves, these are all cast. I could be missing something, but a cast blade is probably not the best idea. Not really sure how we go from calling these swords usable to referring to SLOs. Perhaps we should make up our minds. Better yet, maybe we should figure out if these are usable or SLOs. I'm not putting my money to it, though. I wouldn't go so far as to call what we saw a SLO either; but anyway- what about people sharpening their Windlasses and Del Tins make you cringe; do you opine that the aforementioned makers are substandard and maybe should not be sharpened?
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Post by brotherbanzai on Apr 20, 2009 18:37:09 GMT
If the reproduction bronze swords shown in the link are to be considered SLOs, then all existing historical bronze swords would need to be considered SLOs since they're made the same way. Certainly bronze won't hold up as well as steel but there was quite a bit of overlap from the bronze age to the iron age, partially due to a well made bronze sword doing pretty well against the earlier iron swords.
If a person likes the khopesh design, I don't see anything wrong with copying it in steel though. Was thinking about doing that myself as I rather like the design too. Could find (or make) some old world bronze and make one like that too.
A sword that comes from the maker properly sharpened could have been sharpened the same way that you would properly sharpen at home one that didn't come sharp. Swords that are designed to be blunts for training should not be sharpened because the blade geometry isn't designed for that. Otherwise, an unsharpened sword is usually just a sword that hasn't been sharpened yet.
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Post by randomnobody on Apr 20, 2009 18:49:12 GMT
I take it that it must be noted (as it seems to have been missed) that I was not referring to these particular swords as SLOs. I was questioning comparing them to SLOs as was done by another member before myself. Apparently also worth noting is that I bear no misgivings on the quality of...well, quality bronze weapons. I am well aware of what fine pieces they can be, though I prefer more modern materials, like steel, which are simply more readily available for one, and also tend to last longer with less maintenance. Though I may have some misconceptions on the wear and aging of bronze, perhaps BB can fill me in? That said, I am certain this person crafts very fine pieces, and would bear no objection to owning them, if they were sharpened properly from the start that is, but as they are blunt I cannot bring myself to take a grinder to them to "fix" them. Sacrilege, it is. On a similar note, define "substandard" for me, then I will tell you if I feel Windlass et cetera meet that criteria. Bear in mind there are many in this field who consider our favorites to be trash. I will, though, say I've yet to be blown away by Windlass et cetera so I will hold any other opinion other than "I have no opinion" until further notice. To address BB's new point, I would very much like to see a good khopesh made out of good steel. Heck, I'd buy it on the spot if I found one (that was sharpened properly...). Likewise his second point on sharpening blunts. If these are truly "blunt" then I would not advise sharpening them for the reasons he has stated and this was the entire point of my original post here in this thread. However, if the swords are merely "unsharpened," then it would certainly depend upon the degree of "sharpening" required to have them "sharp." Again, I refer to the grinder statement above. I wonder if I'll ever be able to make myself understandable.
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Post by brotherbanzai on Apr 20, 2009 19:50:37 GMT
I misunderstood you Random, I thought you were wondering if the bronze swords in the link should be classified as SLOs.
Bronze as a material can last quite nicely for thousands of years, the edge however is another matter. A steel blade would require less maintenance to keep the edge intact. Bronze doesn't rust like steel does but it does patina over time which is also an oxidation process (essentially rusting).
I would think that a bronze sword used solely to cut things and not used to spar against steel would last just fine. I wouldn't be too keen to take a bronze blade to a sword fight against modern steel though. I would also expect it to be easier for the average guy to find info on the repair and maintenance of his steel sword than for a niche market bronze sword.
And just in case anyone is curious, bronze swords were made from "old world" bronze which was a alloy of copper and tin, maybe with a bit of lead and traces of any number of other elements depending on who was making it and what they were trying to achieve with it. Modern bronze is copper with a bit of silicon and a bit less manganese and may not be suitable for sword blades.
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Post by randomnobody on Apr 20, 2009 20:05:20 GMT
Thank you, BB; that pretty much confirms my initial thoughts.
Thus, I stand by my statements as of now...pending further information on these particular pieces.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2009 0:57:03 GMT
I own one of Neil's Ballentober swords, which you can apparently only get if you attend one of his workshops. I just need to finish making the hilt for it and it will be done!
After the bronze is cast (you cannot forge bronze like iron, different mechanical properties), the edge portion intended to be sharpened is hardened by compression. In this process, a slender hard object is placed against the face of the edge and hammered, causing it to firm up rather well. It will still be harder than the modern steel we're so used to, but it's certainly "hard enough" to withstand cutting use.
M.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2009 19:15:48 GMT
I just ran across a khopesh on this page and remembered there was a thread for it. This one's made out of steel! So here it is, for anyone who might be interested: traditionalarcherybows.com/My_Homepage_Files/Page1.htmlEDIT: I just realized there are in fact three of them, of varying sizes and design.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2009 5:44:23 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2009 8:40:19 GMT
I just ran across a khopesh on this page and remembered there was a thread for it. This one's made out of steel! So here it is, for anyone who might be interested: traditionalarcherybows.com/My_Homepage_Files/Page1.htmlEDIT: I just realized there are in fact three of them, of varying sizes and design. Just to add a bit of info that wasn't in this listing according to Chris Palmer the owner of Scorpion Bows, "The steel is 5160 carbon steel. Point of balance is at the point at which the blade begins it’s curve downward, about 2 inches out from the handle. I am able to make any length you wish. Of course the price does rise a little as the sword grows longer...." With the speed at which my e-mail query was answered I would also expect that the custom service should be quite good also.
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