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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2006 22:08:41 GMT
hey all, my conflict is this. with all the talk on this site about swords, really the only swords that i have heard about are "tatami cutters" or display only swords. so where oh where would one find a sword that is ACTUALLY battle ready and functional. one that would be able to easily cut flesh and bone, and be constantly beaten against other swords and still be functional? now, before i get any of you asking "why", that doesnt matter, this is strictly hypothetical. what i am asking is, can any of these swords stand to be "battle" ready, by looks, feel, style, durability and functionality?
any and all comments are welcome.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2006 22:30:37 GMT
Have a look around Pauls site and some of the stuff he's testing, if a sword can go through a concrete block I'm fairly sure it will go through a person. Most of the tatami cutters would probably cut through a person just as well the reason I guess most of us use soft targets is we don't want to damage our swords. Any sword hit against another sword will be damaged and whilst I'm no history expert in the "days of old" swords were generally considered disposable because battle use tends to break them.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2006 23:23:04 GMT
If you look on the generation 2 homepage, it says right up front that their swords are designed for steel on steel use. It just happens to be a bonus that with their swords, unlike so many others(slayer swords, badger blades, highland steel, etc) that claim to be nigh indestructible, Gen2's tend to balance well, fall within historically acceptable weight ranges, and are constructed traditionally. Compare to wwwbadgerblades.com to see what I mean. The Cheness swords display similar levels of toughness and strength. There are a few windlass swords that could be used in a battle I think without a critical failure. Cold Steel swords are also built to take heavy abuse... they even take one of their katanas and cut into a steel trash can and the sword takes it without damage as far as I can tell...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2006 3:08:04 GMT
If the swords are properly differentially clay tempered from 1050 range up they should be close to the actual structure of old Japanese steel. That being said can have variances, I have spoke with well known smiths forging in the US that say a good 1050 mono steel blade that is properly tempered has the same effect as the nihonto. As we get higher in the 10xx line they actually become more brittle as in 1095, the only thing helping this is the clay tempering softens the steel from the Ha. As most Japanese swords of old were not used edge to edge as they knew what would happen to the ha, it did happen. But if you look at old Nihonto on the mune and side of the shinogiji you can fine sword cuts from where the strike was caught on the soft skin of the steel. And in cutting tatami it would be ok to say that if a sword can cut goza it could cut through a body part as this became the way for testing the swords after they stopped using criminals tied in various posisitions. Some of the swords cut so well the nakago was inscribe to tell of its cutting ability. Regards Brian
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2006 15:37:41 GMT
hey all, my conflict is this. with all the talk on this site about swords, really the only swords that i have heard about are "tatami cutters" or display only swords. so where oh where would one find a sword that is ACTUALLY battle ready and functional. one that would be able to easily cut flesh and bone, and be constantly beaten against other swords and still be functional? now, before i get any of you asking "why", that doesnt matter, this is strictly hypothetical. what i am asking is, can any of these swords stand to be "battle" ready, by looks, feel, style, durability and functionality? any and all comments are welcome. Welcome to the boards! Have a Fishy Stick!Actually almost all of the swords we discuss here are battle-ready swords. History Lesson!Swordsmiths needed a way to test their blades in Ancient Japan. The first would be a bamboo fitting test, involving fitting the blade with quick bamboo test fittings for the testers to wear. The second would involve acquiring the bodies of executed criminals or, in war time, bodies of fallen enemies. They would position them in various ways (have two apprentices hold the body up by its arms, kneeling on the ground, lying stretched on its back across a rock or fallen tree, etc.) and practice test cutting on the body. They would draw imaginary lines throughout the corpse and cut along these lines as they were the most difficult and effiencient to test on. One would be beheading the corpse, another would involve cutting off an arm. The blade had to pass all of these tests and would then be scribed on it's license and it's nagako which tests it undertook (and obviously passed). If it failed any test even once it would be melted down and made into a lesser weapon, such as a spear. When Emperor Meiji began his rule and ushered in the Meiji Era and Restoration he made it illegal to wear, use, or test swords. This being the case a new medium was needed to test swords on. Tatami was invented shortly after the law was passed. Tatami is made of a rolled bamboo mat, often with a piece of bamboo passing through it to simulate a bone. The tatami is soaked for about 24 hours before it is cut. Tatami worked, and still works, wonderfully because it almost perfectly replicates the consistancy and difficulty of an average human male. (some tatami represents an arm, some a torso, etc.) This being the case, if a sword can cut tatami then it can cut a human just as easily. (Naturally almost any blade will cut a human) So if you see a katana labelled as a "tatami killer" or "tatami cutter" then you have found your battle-ready sword. SLO's, wall-hangers, etc. will never be labelled as tatami certified. (a few exceptions for ignorant people and merchants who don't care) As for sword on sword - Only european swords were ever designed for direct blade contact. (not edge on edge) A katana was never designed to take a blow to it's blade. It can be done if you block using the flat of the blade, but never ever to the edge. You should never try to block with a katana unless it is an emergency or extremely exceptional scenario. If you want a katana then you need to join a kendo class. I personally will not support someone's owning a real katana without taking a class. The same for european blades. These are not toys and these are not decorations. They are real weapons and they are much more deadly than a gun. (In theory a gun needs to be loaded, cocked, aimed, and the trigger activated. A sword is always loaded and can cut even if no one is holding it.) I am not trying to be preachy or attack you, I am just trying to warn you. You would be absolutely amazed at how fast a sword can kill an untrained and unexperienced person. By your post I can tell you are pretty new to the world of swords. Again, a word of advice - seek out an instructor! Even once you know what you're doing you'll still get one or two sliced fingers now and again. If you attempt to use swords without any training or instruction there is a good chance you'll kill yourself before your opponent. If you need help finding instruction or you want help with anything else we will be happy to assist. I will not warn you again about instruction, so no fear. Just keep it in mind. L.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2006 19:17:24 GMT
Iaido/Battojutsu or Kenjutsu would be better choices if you want to get real experience with a japanese sword. Kendo nowadays is to authentic japanese sword-fighting as sport fencing is to authentic european sword fighting.
Also, It's nearly impossible to completely sever a human torso cleanly in two. Taking a limb off is one thing, but all the way clean through a torso I don't think was ever accomplished. They did cut from the shoulder to opposite hip, but in such cases only the last couple inches of the blade made the cut, so it was more of a laceration, and deadly enough, as it could split ribs, cut open lungs, sever quite a few major muscles and open the bowels.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2006 20:50:36 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2006 20:52:51 GMT
Excellent picture. Is that from the book "iaido: The art of drawing the sword"? I have that book and it has a similar picture. L.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2006 21:21:19 GMT
its scanned from one of my books but I dont remember which one. I dont have the one you mentioned tho.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2006 17:46:33 GMT
interesting information everyone, thanks for the help
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