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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2009 13:38:42 GMT
Hello to all ;D, I am new here and need your help  , cause I have no idea what I've really got. A sword shop in a huge local mall said you were one of the places to go for excellent help  . Thanks for your time and help. Although this seems long it's mostly all needed. My wife and I do missions in Central America and while in Antigua, Guatemala a 1,1/2 ago we bought 3 swords from an antique "unique" store. The store gets a-lot of their items from a local guy that digs most of them out of the ground. We were told he dug the swords up in a town called Espadas de Quetzaltenango, I think the town is around 1hr from Antigua. Through talking to the people at the store we have come the conclusion the the swords are Spaniard from when the Spaniards invaded Guatemala mid 1700's. I would like to authenticate them and fine out any info I really can. Although not sure I would ever sell them, I would also like to know what they could be worth if anything. I am no expert but the swords don't look like replicas. The smallest sword "dagger" has a brass tip at the end and a brass ring in the center with a wooden handle. The middle sword has a wooden handle with a tip that doesn't really look brass or steel, it also has rings carved near the tips on the guards above the handle. The largest sword is all metal, it appears to have remnits of paint in various places on it. I read the rules and this is a-little out of the focus, so if you can't help please point me to someone who can. Thanks again!!! Sizes: Largest sword 27inch blade Middle sword 18,1/2inch blade Smallest 11,1/2inch blade Thanks in advance for all your help ;D! Get ready there's 10 pictures... The swords look better in real life, the pics were taken with my iPhone so not super high pixels ;D.           That's it  Thanks!!! |
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Post by hotspur on Jan 8, 2009 14:28:15 GMT
Welcome to the boards.
All three look as if they were put together locally and no earlier than the late 19th century. The blade with the wide single fuller looks like your prize here. Of the three, the wide blade with a single fuller was likely once a full size sabre. The one with two narrow fullers looks to me like a later 19th century infantry sword (possibly made in Spain but just as likely in Germany). The large one looks almost completely made from scratch but also it is possible the blade ws recycled from a Spanish cavalry sword. I can't really get a good look at the blade of that one.
It is possible that they were made up as real weapons but much of it seems to me to be simple iron working meant for the tourist trade. Some of them may be quite old (like 100 years) but none were put together in Europe and the two with finger rings seem to be "in the style of". I will take a look and see if I can find a thread elsewhere about these. The big one looks mostly as if it were simply made for decoration.
The location mentioned as the type of the sword is really the key there. Espadas simply making swords made in the locality.
Great fun I'm sure but of little worth aside from examples of local craft. The broad bladed sabre might be worth researching as to what it once was. The long blade might lead to something if there are any latin looking letters engraved longwise on the blade.
Cheers
Hotspur; the ball pommel looks to be a 1963 VW gearshift knob but I'm probably just imagining it
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2009 14:23:23 GMT
Hotspur,
Thanks for that wealth of information! Kinda a bummer if all was true, cool that they are at least really old.
Does anyone know where I can actually take the swords to or send them to have them "tested" for like a specific date of origin and so on?
Does anyone know how to do further research on the swords, like what is the best direction to go in or where else to start? Thank you to all!!!
Daniel
Wherever you go you will leave a mark, what mark you leave is up to you.
Daniel
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2009 14:28:58 GMT
I forgot... If I wanted to restore the swords, is that wise? Could it depreciate any possible value and if not how would you clean them. What would you recommend on the wood & for the blade??? Thanks again for all!
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Post by hotspur on Jan 10, 2009 15:30:02 GMT
Hi Daniel, A local museum or university may be able to take a look at what you have in hand. Generically, the Spanish influenced swords of central and south are sometimes called espada ancha. A brief page is offered at this site. www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/espadaan/index.htmlThere are also some other forums there that may have eyes that can better appraise them. As I mentioned, the broad fullered and cut down sabre blade may have some background someone may recognize. Unfortunaely, the rest of that sword looks purposefully decorative to me. The longer bladed sword with the hollow metal handle is most likely to be purely decorative. The last of the three with white pommel may well have been purposefully made as a single unit. In looking at that slightly diagonally shaped blade, I would say my first thought of a cut down blade incorrect and perhaps original to the effort. Again, not made in Spain but of Spanish influence and made locally. As far as restoration or conservation, conservation is what you want to look at. There is a very good primer for antiques here. swordforum.com/articles/ams/conservation.phpTruly, less is more when trying to clean up old swords in this condition. Even though value of them is likely negligible, altering the overall appearance in this case isn't go to make it worth more. I had recently met with an antique arms curator regarding one of my sabres. Even in his best and expert opinion, only some generalities were able to be offered. While fascinated with the item I showed him, all we could do was narrow the age range a little bit and look at possibilities of origin. Even a good numbr of period swords I have leave a good bit of information unconfirmed and with answers to questions I'll probably never know. If mine, I would probably do no more than dust it now and again if displayed. If going beyond that first step, there will be other considerations one might see such as that conservation link posted above. One person does nothing more than use soft cloths and paste wax to both lift loose dirt and rust. A problem with that is that the metal and wood under then wax can trap oxidation. Some things to consider. The objects of steel and wood are generally going to react jsut as they would any other object. Cheers Hotspur; several thousand revolving signatures have now been served |
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Post by hotspur on Jan 11, 2009 12:07:35 GMT
I surely don't feel as if I know that much about swords. I work on reading and history of arms in general and on some specific periods more than others. Age wise, I'm probably older than many in getting started with swords in general. The internet has been a huge boon to all. My involvement with the various boards really only goes back to about 1998. I don't believe that a day goes by that I haven't learned something.
Add that I probably have way too much time on my hands.
Cheers
Hotspur; yesterday's dig was regarding a company named Morris, Puhl and Morgan. They were a regalia company in Detroit.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2009 0:07:45 GMT
The sword in the middle reminds me of one I saw at the Museum of the Palace of the Governors in Santa Fe, New Mexico. As in the example in Hotspur's "Vikingsword" article, it was labeled an "espada ancha", although the one I saw in the museum was not as fine a quality weapon as the ones in the article. It was clear to me that it was a simple, locally made weapon for use in that frontier settlement (and, as I recall, not that different than your's).
That museum is quite interested its Spanish colonial period which mostly consisted of the 1700s and early 1800s (the earlier Spanish colonists were chased away by a Native American revolt) and has a collection of swords and other weapons.
I would email them with the same photos and ask if someone there could comment on your swords.
Good luck.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2009 0:33:05 GMT
Hal Siegel of TherionArms.com would be a good person to contact about these. He occasionally visits SFI, but I am not sure if he has a presence here or at myArmoury. You could try contacting him through his site to see if he'd be willing to help you ID these weapons.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2009 15:21:46 GMT
First I want to thank you all for the time and thought you have given me, this site lives up to how it was described to me at a sword shop.
That said, what is the name of that museum Moreno? Quote: "That museum is quite interested its Spanish colonial period which mostly consisted of the 1700s and early 1800s (the earlier Spanish colonists were chased away by a Native American revolt) and has a collection of swords and other weapons."
I would like to contact them. Thx
Quote: "What I am wondering is this; How is it that you know so much about swords?"
This is a great question. It was on my mind as well and appreciate you sharing with us.
Other note: I really like the look of the swords now just because they appear more authentic this way, but I will look into the links you posted Hotspur. I like to take good care of all that I own so as to make it last as long as it can (get your money out of it).
Anyways thanks again and we will see how this goes:-)
Daniel
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2009 15:23:49 GMT
Never mind Moreno, I'm a dummy and see the name of the museum now. Thanks!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2009 4:42:03 GMT
Registration is open again at SFI, so you might want to join and post your query there, too. The more eyes, the better!
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, cause I have no idea what I've really got. A sword shop in a huge local mall said you were one of the places to go for excellent help 
. Thanks for your time and help. Although this seems long it's mostly all needed. 
Thanks!!!
