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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2008 17:59:43 GMT
So which is better? Please provide some specific products and links.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2008 3:29:52 GMT
no one has any info on bluing?
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Post by 293master293 on Dec 22, 2008 3:40:29 GMT
I voted "depends on what your doing". If you plan on bluing something that is permanently attached to something that will burn, (a peened sword for example), cold blue it. If the thing you plan on bluing can be detached, (a threaded sword for example), hot blue it. Simple as that.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2008 4:28:28 GMT
I voted "depends on what your doing". If you plan on bluing something that is permanently attached to something that will burn, (a peened sword for example), cold blue it. If the thing you plan on bluing can be detached, (a threaded sword for example), hot blue it. Simple as that. I've got to sort of disagree. There are many varying effects that can be achieved with each type of blueing. Also, some steels won't take the heats required for hot blueing. So really it's not a very simple choice =). That being said, my preferance is cold rust blueing, which can be used on any steel that will rust, and is only limited by the size container you can improvise to boil water in. The finish is a very smooth, DURABLE, satin black...that when oiled glosses up incredibly incredibly well. I've yet to use it on any of my work...but, I've done some testing and the pieces I've tried out turned out beautifully. Cris
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2008 15:08:30 GMT
Any links to products? I Plan on Bluing a Tsuba I am having made.
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Post by Matt993f.o.d on Dec 22, 2008 15:17:49 GMT
Neither is "Better". They are different techniques intended to produce different effects.
If you are bluing fittings like a Tsuba, I would hot blue, as it is easier. Polish it to at least 600 grit first. Any coarser scratches you leave will show up and look crap.
Just as an aside, never hot blue a blade as you will draw back its hardness and thus ruin its heat treatment.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2008 15:49:38 GMT
Having used cold-blueing a time or three, I have to say, use Hot-Blueing every time you can afford to. Cold Blueing wears off, and fast. Unless you Want a kind of Damascus Steel etching on your piece, because the acid just doesn't eat in that far.
If you're boiling anything you're not cold-blueing. It's a wipe on, wipe off acid. Wear gloves. Cold-blueing is really most effective on firearms or other pieces not expected to be impacting on other solid objects much.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2008 16:15:57 GMT
for cold blueing -Birchwood Casey gun blue ...can be found at most sporting goods store / dept. or hardware. you can play at bit more with cold blueing in terms of patterns / effects as it seems to react to different metals in different ways. Even the same type of metal you'll get a different look. Example: I cold blued both these hilts using B-C gun blue and had different results. My Windlass type 2 Schiavona and my Windlass 15th c. longsword Yes, for something thats going to get impacted regularly....go with the heat treated process. Example: my Armour Class mortuary hilt - heat treated blued yes agreed too, you never want to attempt to heat blue a blade... cheers, Bill
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2008 19:19:29 GMT
Having used cold-blueing a time or three, I have to say, use Hot-Blueing every time you can afford to. Cold Blueing wears off, and fast. Unless you Want a kind of Damascus Steel etching on your piece, because the acid just doesn't eat in that far. If you're boiling anything you're not cold-blueing. It's a wipe on, wipe off acid. Wear gloves. Cold-blueing is really most effective on firearms or other pieces not expected to be impacting on other solid objects much. This is why I specified 'Cold Rust Blueing' =). Billiam...those are gorgeous! Particularly the second and third! Thanks for sharing =) Cris
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2008 21:46:17 GMT
Billiam, +1 for Birchwood-Casey. If you're going to use it, though, I would go 1 further in specificity and recommend the Super Blue.
True Blue is quite pale and practically wipes right off. Super Blue gets you that very dark blue-gray that at least hangs on till it gets hit. (I originally cold-blued my helm. Won't be doing that again)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2008 0:01:42 GMT
So which is better? Please provide some specific products and links. For the blade of a sword or other sword parts, I would probably go with cold blue. If the sword cannot be taken apart, you are stuck with cold blue in any case. If the sword can be disassembled, you can have the parts hot blued. The equipment to do this is fairly expensive, so you should probably get a gunsmith (or someone with the equipment) to do it for you. Cold blue is the choice for economy and for items that can't be taken apart. I have used most of the commonly available bluing chemicals over the last forty years. Most aren't worth buying. There are two products that I have found excellent. 1) 44-40 Gun Blue (http://www.brownells.com/) 2) Hoppe's liquid gun blue. My preference is for the 44-40. Brownells also markets a product called OXPHO-BLUE which has a good reputation - but I haven't used it. I am glad to hear that others have had good luck with the Birchwood-Casey bluing. But I have to tell you that I don't much care for the stuff. When bluing, it is very important that the item to be blued, your hands, and tools be totally free of grease and/or oil. Wash up before bluing. Use a good degreaser on the parts. If working with individual pieces, soap and water or (better yet) Simple Green make excellent degreasers. If working on a complete sword (where you don't want water getting under the parts) lighter fluid or alcohol work well. Assuming the metal is properly polished and prepared, the secret to getting a good blue is patience. You will need to apply many coats of blue - oiling and cleaning between coats - to get a deep blue-black finish. Good luck with the project.
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Post by 293master293 on Dec 23, 2008 4:10:47 GMT
Jeez, hot bluing isn't that expensive. All you need is a propane torch, and you can get those for about $15. And about $3 for replacement propane bottles.
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Dec 23, 2008 4:19:56 GMT
Jeez, hot bluing isn't that expensive. All you need is a propane torch, and you can get those for about $15. And about $3 for replacement propane bottles. Really.... because I was under the impression that you needed a molten salt bath to immerse the metal in molten sodium nitrate (@ 800 degrees F) Please elaborate on hot blueing with a torch....
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2008 4:25:34 GMT
The salt bath is a little different, if you look at the trigger and hammers of a black powder gun, you will see the almost Damascus look, thats is salt bath, not very deep and the normal hot bluing would be the frame/barrel which wares better, And I'm not going near masters quote with a Nodatchi!
................SanMarc.
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Post by 293master293 on Dec 23, 2008 5:17:06 GMT
Jeez, hot bluing isn't that expensive. All you need is a propane torch, and you can get those for about $15. And about $3 for replacement propane bottles. Really.... because I was under the impression that you needed a molten salt bath to immerse the metal in molten sodium nitrate (@ 800 degrees F) Please elaborate on hot blueing with a torch.... You take the torch, you heat up what you want blued until it is blue, and then you dip it in oil. EDIT* I think ShooterMike did a tutorial on it somewhere.
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Post by ShooterMike on Dec 23, 2008 5:38:40 GMT
Really.... because I was under the impression that you needed a molten salt bath to immerse the metal in molten sodium nitrate (@ 800 degrees F) Please elaborate on hot blueing with a torch.... You take the torch, you heat up what you want blued until it is blue, and then you dip it in oil. Master, that's not hot bluing. That is what's best described as "oil quench" bluing. The colors go from plum to blue to grey depending on the temperatures. Hot bluing can be a lot of different things. But the most common today involves three steps. 1. Stripping away all the oils and impurities in a boiling prewash for at least 30 minutes. 2. Boiling for a set time (depending on the solution used) in a molten bluing salt solution. 3. Wash away the bluing salts residue from the parts with water and immediately immerse them in a boiling neutralizing oil bath for a few hours. An optional step 4 that I use is, dry the parts and coat them overnight with Black Magic darkening oil to really bring out the blue-black luster. Here's a pretty good detailed discussion of all the different bluing processes.
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Post by 293master293 on Dec 23, 2008 6:46:06 GMT
Oh. Thanks for clearing that up Mike.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2008 14:34:04 GMT
That is a good article Mike. I enjoyed it. The first gun shop I ever worked at had a complete set of bluing tanks. In the year I was there, we didn't blue a single gun. All of them were sent to another gunsmith. The only parts refinishing I witnessed was of some small parts which the smith brought to a straw color with a propane torch. I don't recall what (if anything) he used to quench the parts. For those interested in bluing equipment and chemicals, try the Brownells web site (below) and type "bluing" in the search box. www.brownells.com/
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Post by ShooterMike on Dec 23, 2008 17:47:55 GMT
Brownells is a great resource. I get a TON of stuff from them. They have the best deals on all sorts of bluing solutions.
The custom gunsmith I used to "apprentice" for blued a lot of guns and various other stuff. That was part of my gig, running the blue tanks. I would conservatively estimate I have blued well over a hundred guns.
Word of warning: NEVER wear short pants or short sleeve shirts while working around blue tanks that are boiling. The bluing solution is highly caustic. If you get a drop on your skin it will continue to eat a hole in your flesh until neutralized by cold water. And it HURTS LIKE A MOFO!
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Dec 25, 2008 14:52:03 GMT
I do agree with the opinion that for a peened sword the cold blue is the best, as it's really easy to touch up. For a sword which can be disassembled for maintenence heat colouration is great. I love the variation in colours available from it. I do most pieces in the oven, but pommels can take forever to get hot through, so sometimes I do them on a stove, but they can go past your colour fast. If you've seen my site you'll have seen all the fun I have colouring everything. I read somewhere that the hotter colours get deeper into the steel and can be more durable. I got this colour chart from somewhere, (maybe anvilfire.com?) not sure what steel it is for, but it shows a general guide to the spectrum. In my oven I tend to get gold at 220C, burgundy at 240C, Dark Blue at about 270C, but hey, thermostats are only a guide. I also drop them in vege oil after hot oxidization. And I have had zero rust problems on pieces that I have coloured, though I still remain careful to keep a thin smear of oil on them.
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