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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2008 3:35:36 GMT
As I read through posted messages in this forum, including instructions given in reports of sword tests, I found that katanas are very vulnerable. The handles get cracked; the blades take a set or shatters, etc. Moreover, you cannot do this or that with your katanas. "Do not test it on a hard target," for instance. Why are katanas so WEAK? In real battle fields, samurais must use their swords to strike hard targets such as other swords, spears, or other hard weapons. So, how could they survive the battles if their katanas were so vulnerable? Moreover, in comparison to other swords tested so far on this website, I found that other types of swords, Chinese or European, seem to do much better and to be stronger. Is my impression wrong?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2008 3:50:15 GMT
Swords arent weak. My cheness 9260 has taken many hard target hits, mostly bad bottle cuts and cutting into my target stand with no marks, dents, dings or scratches. Most Samurai probably never hit to many hard targets because most actual battles between samurai lasted for 1 strike.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2008 4:05:06 GMT
Katana are not necessarily vulnerable. What I can say about katana and hard targets is that its not suggested to the untrained or inexperienced cutter to take cuts against hard targets with a katana for fear that they will either damage an expensive sword or lose control of the weapon and injure either themselves or bystanders.
Katana have been (in the past) used to test cut against steel helmets (a pretty damned hard target). This of course was only done by very experienced and thoroughly trained samurai or other high ranking bushi under the scrutiny of other very knoweldgeable sword practitioners and noblemen/royalty.
I have personally cut 3" thick green bamboo, tatami mats rolled with 1" diameter green bamboo inside and the occasional tree and/or tree branch with katana. When I botched a cut, even just a half roll of soaked tatami without any bamboo inside bent the blade. When the cut was performed well the blade cut through even 3" of solid green wood without damage, not even a scratch.
Katana, DH blades at least, are not designed to take the same stresses that a western blade were designed for. They were less flexible due to the differential hardening. That was the trade off for a very hard portion of the blade that could take and hold an extremely sharp edge. As such while a western blade or a through hardened chinese blade can be very flexible while maintaining a decent edge their cutting/slicing power is not the same as that of a DH katana of the same time period.
In modern metals its possible now to create a katana that can and does maintain as keen an edge as a traditionally forged DH katana while still retaining great flexibility and strength in the blade. This is done with the use of stronger steels and through hardening the entire blade. Such an example can be seen in Cheness Cutlery's 9260 blades. Very sharp but also tough and flexible enough to withstand a great deal of punishment. Much more abuse than old DH katana could withstand. It is also possible, with great care, to create katana that are DH but still incredibly strong, such as katana made of T10 steel or even stronger yet, L6. These tend to be quite expensive though. It should be noted that many schools (the one I studied with included) do not condone the use of these blades, not even the Cheness 9260 blades because of how much abuse they can take and still continue to perform well. As my sensei had said to me - "the strength of the blade along with its very wide profile makes cutting easier than it should be and is also too forgiving of poor technique. This can lead to laziness and poor form that with any traditionally forged katana would result in a bent or broken blade. As we do not train for combat anymore but more for the perfection of our minds, bodies and spirits (and the connection between the three), perfection in our technique is now the utmost importance."
I personally don't see a need for an indestructible katana. I don't forsee myself having to cleave through steel drums, thrust through the hood of a car or cut down very large trees with my katana. In fact, while I trained in battle arts rather than civilian arts, I don't ever anticipate using any sword against another human in the length of my life. If I need to defend myself there will undoubtedly be other weapons more readily at hand and more effectively suited for the job at hand than a sword.
Please remember that katana are not really weak weapons at all, just specialized and they carry with them a culture of extreme respect and honor being held for the blade. Therefore those who have practiced JSA will tell you to be careful with your blade and treat it kindly. This is more for respect of the sword than the fact that it is more likely to break or take a set than other swords (despite that might be true to some extent).
As always, I could be wrong or misinformed. If I am I will appreciate corrections.
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Dec 7, 2008 13:06:20 GMT
As I read through posted messages in this forum, including instructions given in reports of sword tests, I found that katanas are very vulnerable. The handles get cracked; the blades take a set or shatters, etc. Moreover, you cannot do this or that with your katanas. "Do not test it on a hard target," for instance. Why are katanas so WEAK? In real battle fields, samurais must use their swords to strike hard targets such as other swords, spears, or other hard weapons. So, how could they survive the battles if their katanas were so vulnerable? Moreover, in comparison to other swords tested so far on this website, I found that other types of swords, Chinese or European, seem to do much better and to be stronger. Is my impression wrong? Yes, your impression is wrong. First of all , on this forum we are dealing mostly with sub-$300 katana... which in reality is only the barest approximation of a katana. Really it's just a sharp pice of steel in the shape of a katana..(sorry sub $300 fans, but it is true...) The sheer volume of antique nihonto that survive should give some clue as to their durability... The true katana is DH , so to be flexable...and to bend rather than break... but at the same time... a well made blade has plenty of niku, and a very thick cross-section as opposed to many other swords... They do not take a set easily. I've cut for years with many blades... tatami some.. but mostly bamboo ... pieces of bamboo almost as big around as your head... I've only ever had one blade take a set... and that was because I was cutting from my knees and jammed the blade into the ground ... You mention cracked handles...etc... Again , an issue with cheaper ($500 and less) swords... and it happens across the board. I recall several Cold Steel , Hanwei and Generation 2 western swords here that had handle and pommel issues... Of course even damaged swords can be durable... I've got a $100 katana with a tsuka that has been cracked for two years, and it is holding up nicely.. it has cut insane targets... and been battered against steel tubing, with almost no damage ...and it still cuts anything in front of it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2008 13:21:10 GMT
if ur afraid of vunerable katanas stay away from masahiro fuji elite katana the edge on it bends so easily its sad, and also it bent as soon as i killed a tree
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2008 14:31:39 GMT
Well historically Japanese swords did fail with breaking and bending and that set some smiths to make better blades. Such as the famous story of Amakuni Yasutsuna the legendary sword smith that is known to create the first single edge sword as well the famous Kogarasu maru blade.
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Post by 293master293 on Dec 7, 2008 23:10:22 GMT
I, too have noticed that katana seem to be weaker. I think it is the geometry. You can have a $300 European sword, like Windlass, and it will be tougher than a $1000 Hanwei. Katana DO take sets easier.
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Post by rammstein on Dec 8, 2008 1:45:21 GMT
if ur afraid of vunerable katanas stay away from masahiro fuji elite katana the edge on it bends so easily its sad, and also it bent as soon as i killed a tree *Facepalm*
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Post by shadowhowler on Dec 8, 2008 2:11:44 GMT
if ur afraid of vunerable katanas stay away from masahiro fuji elite katana the edge on it bends so easily its sad, and also it bent as soon as i killed a tree *Facepalm* Facepalm indeed...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2008 2:11:46 GMT
^LOL.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2008 6:39:17 GMT
in my opinion (magic words lol) Katana are not 'vulnerable' exactly, more depends on the steel , how its made and how the person using it is cutting, hell have you seen what Paul did to the oni yuri in the DESTRUCTION test vid ? mind you I'm not saying go chop wooden blocks or strike at a steel pole with a katana of any kind but from what i can remember the oni yuri was no more than slightly 'wounded' by such abuse. plus you gotta think of why these swords were made in the old days , the katana was made to cut thru human skin and bone, most fights on the street and such people were not walkin' around in full suits of Armour, and for cutting flesh and bone a katana is ideal in my opinion , HOWEVER , when a samurai would go into battle they were in suits of Armour but these suits were not made of all the same materials as the Armour knights wore, a Knight's suit of Armour was really tough for its time (still pretty much is i guess...) it seems to me that western swords were made more to be powerful and to be able to hit men in such Armour and things , I'm not saying a western sword is basically a semi sharp club (cuz i know western swords can cut really well) I'm just saying that IMO they were made with hitting hard targets in mind, suit of armor or not you take a good blow to the head and its over lol
so imo katana are not vulnerable they are just not made for taking such 'abuse' and are more made for cutting people to ribbon =P but this is all my opinion ..... dunno if its true.... oh well =D i like katana.
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Post by rammstein on Dec 15, 2008 6:46:53 GMT
I honestly feel this is just an illusion experienced by katanaphiles.
I have the exact opposite complaint and constantly mope to myself why western swords can't be as strong as katanas for $300. I think it's just another case of the grass is always greener on the other side.
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Post by salvatore on Dec 15, 2008 6:47:35 GMT
The differential hardening may create the illusion of being more vulnerable (Because the super hard edge), but I've seen katanas than were more durable than most Euro swords and Chinese swords. Look at Howard Clark or MAS katanas for instance. The things those blade have been put through it nuts.
Then again, I don't know much about Euro swords, so someone will fill in the blanks.
I don't think they are more prone to bending, either.
When you have that much steel stretched across 28 or 29 inches, yeah it'll bend if not used properly, but same goes for any long sword.
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Post by slav on Dec 15, 2008 6:49:01 GMT
Yep. There ya go!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2008 7:13:43 GMT
Well first off, i don't have extensive knowledge of European swords so i will leave that alone. To (try and) answer the question in the OP,... You have to understand that the majority of the problems you see today, like bending, cracking, ect. ect. are the result of popular demand for these fabled weapons throughout the years. You see, there is a huge demand for katana throughout the world... Part of it is the romance of the part in history these weapons once played, another part is Hollywood makes them look "cool". Katana are weapons that are very spiritual to some,... They are so simple, yet so complicated at the same time. There is no "magic" involved whatsoever, but rather a combination of minerals all combined to make this single instrument. Iron, carbon, copper, brass, wood, silk,.... The construction of these swords long ago was a very precise, and very difficult art. The process is so very complicated, and yet its culmination is probably one of the most primitive of instruments.... an edged piece of steel. Much care was taken then in times of peace, and a smiths worth was weighed by his ability to make a good weapon. In times of war, naturally quality had a tendency to slip somewhat. But today, with modern techniques, and many forges mass producing swords there are problems as well, even though this is a peaceful time. The reason i believe you see more failures in katana today are several... #1 - Katana are no longer the "tools of war" that they once were. So most big companies don't pay attention (or don't care about) the integrity. #2 - Mass production of katana makes companies a lot of money, without having to assure the best quality. (I call them "Cookie Cutters") #3 - You have either very stupid, or very misinformed people trying to duplicate ridiculous feats they see in movies. (Like the Matrix). #4 - SLO's (Sword Like objects). There is an abundance of so called "katana" out there that aren't deserving of that title. So they don't really apply to the question. But any decent katana is plenty strong. #5 - Modern communication... Surely warriors broke or damaged weapons on a regular basis. But word did not travel as fast as it does today in the internet age. Whereas we can break a sword, then let the entire world know about it within seconds. So there's my attempt at an answer,... i am a little tired and have a cold as i typed this so if it doesn't make sense then i apologize.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2008 3:26:24 GMT
James, there is a lot of truth to what you said.
I would like to add a "hypothesis" to the mix. I'm saying that because it's based on something I heard, and I am hoping you folks can confirm (or correct me) on that.
Basically, I heard that katana were differentially hardened, but not tempered. This lack of tempering would leave more "stresses" present in the blade, so an imperfectly accomplished cut could add to the stress and lead to the blade breaking... a bit like a piano wire under tension, very strong, but if you push it too far, it fails catastrophically.
am I on to something?
(I know that this is more applicable to historical blades than today's )
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Dec 16, 2008 3:32:05 GMT
James, there is a lot of truth to what you said. I would like to add a "hypothesis" to the mix. I'm saying that because it's based on something I heard, and I am hoping you folks can confirm (or correct me) on that. Basically, I heard that katana were differentially hardened, but not tempered. This lack of tempering would leave more "stresses" present in the blade, so an imperfectly accomplished cut could add to the stress and lead to the blade breaking... a bit like a piano wire under tension, very strong, but if you push it too far, it fails catastrophically. am I on to something? (I know that this is more applicable to historical blades than today's ) Most of the stresses you're talking about would occur in a through hardened blade.... hardened up to say 58 or so..you'd want to draw that back to 52-55 ... or shattering might be a real possibility... Nihonto, however were built the way they were with san mai, kobuse, hon san mai , and DH specifically so they wouldn't shatter.... The process that creates nihonto creates a blade that doesn't need tempering... Historically Japanese swords are known for NOT shattering... but bending instead where other swords may shatter...that is the source of the legends of itys invulnerability today....
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2008 14:21:19 GMT
Historically Japanese swords are known for NOT shattering... but bending instead where other swords may shatter...that is the source of the legends of itys invulnerability today.... Do you have any more info on that? I'm afraid the only resource I know of for the durability of historical Japanese swords is on a subtype and not about them in general: www.nihontocraft.com/Suishinshi_Masahide.html
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Dec 16, 2008 14:27:27 GMT
Historically Japanese swords are known for NOT shattering... but bending instead where other swords may shatter...that is the source of the legends of itys invulnerability today.... Do you have any more info on that? I'm afraid the only resource I know of for the durability of historical Japanese swords is on a subtype and not about them in general: www.nihontocraft.com/Suishinshi_Masahide.htmlI'll have to look around... I just kind of class that in the idea of general knowlege.... that is why one makes blades with a supple body, or a soft core.... to me it is pretty plain common sense , they were made to bend rather than break.... I've seen it mentioned dozens of times...but I don't recall any hard data to back it up...and I doubt the Japanese did scientific stress and failure tests (other than cutting bodies) ... but I'll have a look at some sources and see....
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Dec 16, 2008 14:36:53 GMT
You'll see what I mean... Dr. Stein mentions these things on this page... but doesn't cite hard data... though he does list references.... I do have a copy of COTJS but it is still packed away from my last move...I'll try to dig it out and see what it says www.geocities.com/alchemyst/laminate.htm
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