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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 1:48:19 GMT
I have no doubt James Williams is an exceptionally skilled martial artist. Using mysticism to explain physical events (with maybe a bit of psychology... anyone remember that silly chi master who got beat down by a mixed martial artist?) is doing him and his art a disservice.
If I can find a friend who is willing to volunteer to be on tape and receive a 0 inch punch from me I will try to get some footage up. No promises!
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Post by shadowhowler on Dec 10, 2008 3:53:07 GMT
I would love to see you do a proper one inch punch, it is said to be one of the hardest techniques to actually master. I dunno who said it was one of the hardest things to master... but I would have to dissagree. My Sifu had us drilling on short punch techniques as one of the first basic parts of our training. We often did a drill with mitts where we would stand very close to the mitt and, in rapid sucsession, we had to throw three punches... one that stoped just before the mitt, on that lightly smacked the mitt, and one that drilled the mitt. This was just the begaining of the technique that translates into the infamous 'One inch punch'. I found even the basic weapons forms were more complicated then the one inch punch. However, the bulk of my training was empty hand.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 4:15:00 GMT
The one inch punch as bruce lee does it isn't really a punch at all;
It requires an extraordinary amount of strength and muscle control to do it properly. There are other techniques that use the principles of the one inch punch as well. However if you can find a persons centre of balance it is not actually that hard to unbalance someone, it can be as simple as a one handed push that rolls through using the strength in the wrist, the flow of the movement and where the strikes ends on the opponent.
Vy: James Williams explanation whilst it may seem mystical is anything but. It is true that our bodies generate different types of energy and this energy is what makes a martial art effective. The way you utilise the energy generated by you movements is the secret to any martial art. It is why form is so important, if you have form down it does not require much power of strength to incapacitate and opponent. The bulk of my training has been open handed or empty handed as you put it, especially when I was doing jujitsu which has always been one of my favourite martial arts (not gracie or brazillian but japanese).
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Post by shadowhowler on Dec 10, 2008 4:21:14 GMT
Vy: James Williams explanation whilst it may seem mystical is anything but. It is true that our bodies generate different types of energy and this energy is what makes a martial art effective. The way you utilise the energy generated by you movements is the secret to any martial art. It is why form is so important, if you have form down it does not require much power of strength to incapacitate and opponent. The bulk of my training has been open handed or empty handed as you put it, especially when I was doing jujitsu which has always been one of my favourite martial arts (not gracie or brazillian but japanese). You know, in recent years I've some really good shows on Discovery and National Geographic where they break down all these old martial art techniques using motion capture, pressure sensors and other sophisticated tech. It's been REALLY interesting to compare what I have been tought and my own assumptions of how and why certain things work with the findings. All the 'mystical' sounding theories in the martial arts as *I* have learned them can be broken down into science, and basic physics and body mechanics. If you study Jujitsu then you know ALL about the power of basic body mechanics and leverage. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 5:09:34 GMT
Yeah I agree with all of that and yes I know all about the generation of power and how body mechanics allow you to strike harder or take down bigger guys. Leverage is brilliant and can be used in more ways than just throws.
Speaking of leverage;
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 5:14:16 GMT
James Williams explanation whilst it may seem mystical is anything but. I guess I just misinterpreted what he was saying then... I don't really have any arguments with what you guys are saying. I am not sure what you mean by different types of energy though...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 5:26:33 GMT
Ok types of energy. Our bodies run on energy yes? So you have the neurokinetic energy that allows our neurons to fire in the right synaptic pathways to cause us to perform actions. You also have the energy that we refer to as "messages" within the body. You have the biological electromagnetic fields that surround the human body. The human body is basically a giant battery with all sorts of energies that allow us to do things. To generate power depending on your style you can generate it by stance, body mechanics the way you use your muscles in relation to the ground, the momentum you create by your movements. If we take a jumping backwards spinning kick for example, the first point of energetic contact is with the ground. Energy passes down into the legs to give you the energy to leap up, you then require energy to perform the complex spin and more energy to get your leg into position. You also need the energy of the fulcrum that allows you to spin through the axial rotation with your own body as the centre. The energy of your momentum transfers through your foot into your opponent due to inertia and then you need the energy in your legs to be able to land safely.
Wow, reading back through that I wonder if anyone will follow it.
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Post by shadowhowler on Dec 10, 2008 5:29:54 GMT
Well... many traditional martial arts talk about intristic energy... Ki in Japan, Chi in China. My Sifu (Chiness for Sensei or teacher) used discriptions involving Chi in my training. It sounds very mystical. As time passed tho, I begain to understand it better. It's not really 'magic' at all... mearly a combination of breath control, balance, muscle memory, timing, and many other factors. Like many things in life... it can be looked at from different angles to appear to be different things. I've found that my training in the martial arts (I studied Kung Fu, Judo, and Kempo) was only somewhat helpfull in actual physical confrontation situations. Empty hand teachings my father had given me tended to be more usefull in an actual fight. What the martial arts REALLY gave me was a sense of balance, a way of thinking and being, and a inner harmony that was VERY much lacking in my life before I studied.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 5:39:25 GMT
I have experienced some things in martial arts that I can not explain by science or biology. However most of what I have learnt indeed comes down to science. I think there are some things in martial arts that go beyond the scientific understanding, although I try to stay away from those things.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2008 8:19:52 GMT
I have 2 comments First, on the cutting. Did you guys noticed that the "draw cut" aspect is well, absent? If there was any "drawing" of the blade during the cut, it was so faint I did not notice it. Second, on science and mysticism - I think part of the problem is one of simple vocabulary. Martial artists use words that do sound a bit "mystical", but that's just because that's the vocabulary they have. These words, although technically scientifically incorrect, do a pretty good job of describing what's going on... at least, amongst martial artists
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2008 10:05:44 GMT
[...] That slow-mo thread featuring James Williams shows something interesting about his particular JSA and there is actually very little (if any) draw in the cut while it is going through the target - the slow motion shows chopping style cuts and yet they are very effective. I think that the actual edge geometry (e.g. that katana are usually sharper/more acute and are quite rigid) plays a much bigger role than is usually noted... people seem to focus on the small amount of curvature - maybe because it's the most obvious visual difference? ;D
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2008 20:20:43 GMT
[...] That slow-mo thread featuring James Williams shows something interesting about his particular JSA and there is actually very little (if any) draw in the cut while it is going through the target - the slow motion shows chopping style cuts and yet they are very effective. I think that the actual edge geometry (e.g. that katana are usually sharper/more acute and are quite rigid) plays a much bigger role than is usually noted... people seem to focus on the small amount of curvature - maybe because it's the most obvious visual difference? ;D aah... well erm.... great minds think alike and fools seldom differ?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2008 23:51:03 GMT
Reading everyones responses has been very interesting. I feel as thought I can appreciate what was going on hear much more from the explinations. That first video was great in its explination and detail. Now that I think about it this technique has more to it than just a martial arts application. The reason I know this is because when I was in high school, our football coach took us to football camp over the summer. When I went to the offensive line drills the head lineman coach taught us a technique for pass blocking. It was this technique of generating a large amount of force into what came down to a palm strike centered on the front of the shoulder pads. When one of his college linemen demonstated on a highschooler, it knocked him back. It was pretty interesting. Ok types of energy. Our bodies run on energy yes? So you have the neurokinetic energy that allows our neurons to fire in the right synaptic pathways to cause us to perform actions. You also have the energy that we refer to as "messages" within the body. You have the biological electromagnetic fields that surround the human body. The human body is basically a giant battery with all sorts of energies that allow us to do things. To generate power depending on your style you can generate it by stance, body mechanics the way you use your muscles in relation to the ground, the momentum you create by your movements. If we take a jumping backwards spinning kick for example, the first point of energetic contact is with the ground. Energy passes down into the legs to give you the energy to leap up, you then require energy to perform the complex spin and more energy to get your leg into position. You also need the energy of the fulcrum that allows you to spin through the axial rotation with your own body as the centre. The energy of your momentum transfers through your foot into your opponent due to inertia and then you need the energy in your legs to be able to land safely. Wow, reading back through that I wonder if anyone will follow it. Yeah, I was following just fine;)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2008 2:07:32 GMT
yeah xD that was cool , i wanna do that
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2008 2:47:26 GMT
aah... well erm.... great minds think alike and fools seldom differ? I like to think of myself as a great fool. Ok types of energy. Our bodies run on energy yes? So you have the neurokinetic energy that allows our neurons to fire in the right synaptic pathways to cause us to perform actions. You also have the energy that we refer to as "messages" within the body. You have the biological electromagnetic fields that surround the human body. The human body is basically a giant battery with all sorts of energies that allow us to do things. To generate power depending on your style you can generate it by stance, body mechanics the way you use your muscles in relation to the ground, the momentum you create by your movements. If we take a jumping backwards spinning kick for example, the first point of energetic contact is with the ground. Energy passes down into the legs to give you the energy to leap up, you then require energy to perform the complex spin and more energy to get your leg into position. You also need the energy of the fulcrum that allows you to spin through the axial rotation with your own body as the centre. The energy of your momentum transfers through your foot into your opponent due to inertia and then you need the energy in your legs to be able to land safely. Wow, reading back through that I wonder if anyone will follow it. Yeah, I was following just fine;) Yeah, thanks for expanding Blood. Though I think that maybe what you're thinking neurokinetic energy is can be explained by the movement of ions and neurotransmitters (and however the neurons modulate the information).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2008 8:13:43 GMT
Vy: yeah easy to just call it what it is, I could go into a more technical explanation but I think I got my message across.
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