glendon
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Post by glendon on Sept 10, 2024 9:26:25 GMT
Howdy, folks!
(I'll throw this up in this section, if it needs moved, Mods, I've no worries.)
I am wondering what the minimal dimensions of a sword tang must be to support a 28-30" cut-and-thrust blade. I am guessing the width times thickness product (in mm) must be around 100 or better (e.g., 5mm thick by 20mm wide). Historically, medieval blades weren't that thick, so how wide were the tangs? What worked for the ancients?
Early Modern sabers had tangs quite thick, 7-9mm judging by the blade thickness at the forte, so how wide were they?
I ask, because I am hoping to do some serious modification of production swords to reprofile and shorten them, and I want to know how much of the forte I can carve away and yet have a very sturdy tang.
All info is appreciated, thanks!
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Post by mrstabby on Sept 10, 2024 10:36:49 GMT
I would not fixate on raw numbers, it also depends on heat treatment and steel, softer steel would need a more beefy tang to hold its shape. Additionally if you make the tang thinner than the blade you add in shoulders which can reduce sability. I have seen a few saber restaurations on youtube and they look to be around 15-20mm wide.
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Post by randomnobody on Sept 10, 2024 12:05:59 GMT
Plenty of old sword tangs were super thin and many very short. We modern folk tend to fixate on overbuilding things to prevent failures from forces we may never see, whereas "the ancients" just kept things simple and fixed whatever broke.
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glendon
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Post by glendon on Sept 10, 2024 15:39:48 GMT
Thanks for the videos, they were helpful. The big medieval reinforced my perception.
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Post by larason2 on Sept 10, 2024 16:48:45 GMT
I would ask on the bladesmiths forum. I frequent there, and they have some amazingly knowledgeable and friendly smiths with mad skills. I also agree though, don't worry about it too much. If in doubt, leave the tang as is. The rule of thumb for a hilt is that bigger is usually better. If you regret leaving it too long, you can always shorten it. If you leave it too short, tough beans! Using a sword single handed is usually easier with a longer hilt, because it has better balance, super uncomfortable if the hilt is too short.
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glendon
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Post by glendon on Sept 10, 2024 19:01:25 GMT
I would ask on the bladesmiths forum. I frequent there, and they have some amazingly knowledgeable and friendly smiths with mad skills. I also agree though, don't worry about it too much. If in doubt, leave the tang as is. The rule of thumb for a hilt is that bigger is usually better. If you regret leaving it too long, you can always shorten it. If you leave it too short, tough beans! Using a sword single handed is usually easier with a longer hilt, because it has better balance, super uncomfortable if the hilt is too short. Thanks for the response. However, I am thinking of shortening a blade, attempting to create a tang from the forte. I have used a thin (4.3mm) blade to do this already, with what I believe to be good results, both cutting and annealing; but part of me believes it to be too iffy for heavy duty use as a cutlass. Also, I am fitting it into an existing baskethilt, so the length is already set. As I am shopping production pieces as raw material, I was hoping there existed some sort of rough formula so I could pre-determine if there was enough available meat on a given blade's forte to fashion it into a healthy tang; i.e., how wide to make the tang per unit of thickness. I have seen historical swords with almost comically-narrow tangs, but even thin cutting swords seemed to have a tang thicker than the blade. If anyone cares enough to post some real historical data, I would gibber with appreciation, and drool into my cup as I toast your greatness. |
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Post by randomnobody on Sept 10, 2024 20:45:20 GMT
The real historical data is that there is no fixed equation. Sword tangs of all sizes existed across the world and in all periods.
What's more important than thickness versus length or width is shape and heat treatment. Round the shoulders, soften it up; sharp angles and hard steel don't go well together. Plenty of examples of this in modern swords, many of which generally considered to be overbuilt.
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Post by larason2 on Sept 10, 2024 21:05:18 GMT
Again ask the blade smiths, but I agree there's a lot of variety to the real world examples, and most are overbuilt. I also agree, don't leave any sharp angles on it, that's a crack waiting to happen. It's better to shorten it than it is to thin it. If you must thin it, thin it the minimal amount necessary. That being said, I'd say 1 cm or thereabouts is the minimal thickness acceptable for most sword tangs. Anything over that is just adding buffer. The more the tang extends through the hilt the better, but you want it at least 2/3 of the way through. Less is probably ok for the steel, but then you run into problems with the hilt breaking. I'm not an expert, but these seem to be what I've seen on historical swords.
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Post by randomnobody on Sept 10, 2024 21:31:22 GMT
1cm is thicker than most swords. That's a beefy tang.
As long as it's the same thickness as the forte and tapers properly, it'll do.
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Post by larason2 on Sept 11, 2024 0:27:07 GMT
I mean 1 cm in the dimension on the side of the blade. Best to keep the thickness the same. I'm not sure if there's a particular way to say it that's more clear?
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Post by randomnobody on Sept 11, 2024 6:28:16 GMT
Do you mean width? 1cm wide is a bit narrow, depending on the type of sword. Not unheard-of, but if the blade is more than, say. 3cm wide, I'd personally think a 1cm tang would at least look a bit wimpy.
I don't think I have many, really any, swords that are thicker than 7-8mm at the tang. Most of what I own with removable handles are katana or in that family, which have very wide tangs, versus the average European sword, and especially more than the skinny "stick" tangs on, say, kukri or keris.
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Post by mrstabby on Sept 11, 2024 8:39:07 GMT
I think it's width. 1cm for a 80cm blade is pushing it a bit. I'd say keep it as wide as you can to get a good sized grip.
The Nihonto need more tang because of the differential hardening, on through hardened or spring tempered steel you can get away with less. On shorter blades you can make them less beefy because there is less leverage.
I agree, leave the thickness like on the blade. You don't get any advantage by doing anything with thickness IMHO. Even thickening the tang can be a stress riser.
You also should keep rounded corners if you shape a tang, on right angles it's a lot more likely to break
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Post by randomnobody on Sept 11, 2024 12:26:15 GMT
The Nihonto need more tang because of the differential hardening, on through hardened or spring tempered steel you can get away with less. I don't know about this part. Many cultures throughout history used one or another form of differential hardening in their blades, many of them having very skinny, even very short tangs. Generally, differentially-hardened or not shouldn't affect the tang as it shouldn't extend into the tang very far, if at all. Moist nihonto, for instance, see the hamon drop off around the machi. Unless it's suriage, in which case an effort is usually made to minimize the hardened edge present in the new nakago, without sacrificing width. I think the japanese just liked 'em wide. There are plenty of swords over, say, 24 inches that have very skinny tangs, but generally, I would agree. I think this is most important, honestly. A proper transition from "blade" to "tang" will be adequate to minimize risk of breaking. Sharp corners will absolutely cause and spread cracks. |
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Post by larason2 on Sept 11, 2024 13:23:58 GMT
When you do differential hardening, the tang is basically mild steel. It's easier to bend than hardened steel, so I agree a bit more width is necessary. I don't think you need as much width as is typical on a Japanese blade, but it doesn't hurt!
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Post by mrstabby on Sept 11, 2024 13:46:29 GMT
The tang on TH blades isn't unhardened, softer yes, but not unhardened like on original japanese swords. They likely could have gotten away with smaller tangs as soon as the tang also got some hardenss to it, this is true (should have been more specific that I meant older swords, they do like their traditional sword form). When the tang on swords isn't either hard or wide enough, it will fold at the guard sooner or later (it should get gradually softer but still have some hardness to it at the transition of the shoulders AFIAK). There is no one size fits all with this. It deppends on a lot of factors. 1045 for example tends to bend a lot more willingly than 1095 does at the same hardness.
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ghost
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Post by ghost on Sept 11, 2024 20:36:51 GMT
interesting topic
are there examples of historical swords being broken from the hilt and shortened from the tang side? or did they just get another sword? (i keep thinking pirates)
ive seen katana to waks but though the distal blade broke off...
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Post by larason2 on Sept 11, 2024 20:56:24 GMT
Yeah, at least there are many examples of Japanese swords shortened from the tang side. Usually these were intentional, to conform with length restrictions, but there were breaks as well (usually accompanying hilt damage). I'm less aware of western swords broken like this, but there's a reason these swords have tangs! Bronze age swords rarely had tangs, and were usually riveted to the handles. This works for the bronze they used, but hardened steel is a lot more brittle.
All that being said, swords of every kind are more likely to break where they strike a hard target, and where they're not protected by the hilt. Historically Japanese swords also had pretty darn soft tangs and hilts, and the breaks tended to be strikes on the hilt. So again, most swords are probably overbuilt for this.
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Post by randomnobody on Sept 11, 2024 23:34:10 GMT
Japanese swords are usually shortened from the tang because of the nature of their tips. Having the hamon run the full length, with a proper "bodhi" and overall shape are vital to how a Japanese sword works. However, Satsuma-age is a thing, so...work with what you have, I guess?
I've seen a lot more, generally European swords that were obviously given new tips after breaks, but I would guess this was equally less-than-desirable except where one couldn't afford a new sword, for instance.
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Sept 12, 2024 4:39:54 GMT
In every saber there is a hanger!
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glendon
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Post by glendon on Sept 12, 2024 16:31:12 GMT
In every saber there is a hanger! Precisely! |
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