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Post by jfnobody on Aug 21, 2024 13:03:44 GMT
I mean historically was it mostly for a duelling context or self defense or exercise? Do all of most methods/lineages emphasize quick draw or only certain schools?
I do not know much about any Japanese martial arts and my only exposure to sword martial arts has been mostly later western sabre stuff which does not really prioritize or stylize drawing techniques like this. Basically it just shows how to draw the sabre prior to engagement but not much else.
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Post by mrstabby on Aug 21, 2024 14:11:43 GMT
Self defense AKIAK.
In a duel setting both parties know there will be a duel and can prepare. This is one reason why duel and war swords in europe are much longer than self defense ones, you can prepare your sword beforehand, reach kills and it does not matter much how long it takes you to draw the sword. The Katana was nnot a primary weapon for the most part it was more akin to an arming sword.
For self defense you need to be fast: Smallswords, single handed Messer, Katanas (vs a Tachi for example) and so on are easier and faster to draw.
Of course if you have a fast drawing weapon you can incorporate this into duels (see fast draw with revolvers vs duels with muzzle loaders).
In war or duels, if your primary weapon is a sword, you'll go into battle with a drawn sword. When it's your secondary weapon, it won't be a big beast, but arming sword length that you can draw in a fractions of a second, not longer than your armspan.
I am not saying nobody used a big longsword as backup weaopn, but generally the swords you need to access fast for self defense (in war if you are a bowman for example) tended to be smaller.
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Post by treeslicer on Aug 22, 2024 2:08:51 GMT
I mean historically was it mostly for a duelling context or self defense or exercise? Do all of most methods/lineages emphasize quick draw or only certain schools? I do not know much about any Japanese martial arts and my only exposure to sword martial arts has been mostly later western sabre stuff which does not really prioritize or stylize drawing techniques like this. Basically it just shows how to draw the sabre prior to engagement but not much else. To a great extent, it's simply how one uses a katana. A katana's not comparable to either a "knightly sword", or to later Western civilian and military swords or sabers, because it and its mode of employment were peculiar to the Japanese culture of its time. Drawing it quickly and slicing the opponent (hopefully fatally) on the draw is integral to its primary role. It's designed primarily to cut people apart (and that done only with the foible, known as the monouchi in Japanese, using a high velocity drawing slice). It has a distant secondary thrusting role, but is seldom used in the parry at all4. Literally and truly, a katana wielder's best defense is a good offense. You're supposed to neutralize each target with the first hit.
Remember that the samurai (a peculiarly Japanese caste who were a combination of military officer, law enforcement, and local gentry all in one) 3, except where it was death to draw a blade, were given to casual violence on little provocation. "Duel" gives the matter more ceremony than was typical when a brawl broke out between some of them. There was also banditry to worry about when traveling, even during the long peace of Edo, and crimes of passion, envy, and revenge to be ready for 1. If nothing else, there'd be occasions when some cheeky commoner would need to be made an example of, or you might just be bored down at the crossroads when some peasant waddled by 2. There were lots of good reasons to cultivate a quick draw. Note well the strong parallels between the Japanese samurai movies and the American western genre. The katana, as its mythology has come down to us, is socially comparable to the Old West six-shooter. 
Nukitsuke (pronounced "new-kitz-key") and nukiuchi ("noo-cue-chee") are the heart of iaijutsu, and essentially what the katana is all about, as Skallagrim says in different words in his video, Go learn the meanings of the words, and watch some serious instructional videos of these being done with target cutting involved, and you'll start to understand. The Japanese videos are the best, IMHO, like this one:
Notes:
1. IIRC, among many other examples, there were this incident involving 47 ronin, some off-the-wall office murders when bureaucrats passed over for promotion went postal on co-workers, and, of course, the legendary origin of iaijutsu to begin with (claimed by several koryu, including MJER), when a snot-nosed kid invented nukitsuke to take out the guy who'd killed his father.... 
3. The apparent resemblances between Western knights and Japanese samurai (as between chivalry and bushido) are superficial, because the institutions evolved differently. The samurai began as humble security guards, and were always legally separate from the hereditary nobility of the imperial court. Western and Japanese feudalism were never exactly equivalent, and some of the differences are glaring, but I won't elaborate on that here.
4. Parry marks on historical katana blades are rare enough to be notable and valued.
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Post by jfnobody on Aug 27, 2024 6:36:01 GMT
I mean historically was it mostly for a duelling context or self defense or exercise? Do all of most methods/lineages emphasize quick draw or only certain schools? I do not know much about any Japanese martial arts and my only exposure to sword martial arts has been mostly later western sabre stuff which does not really prioritize or stylize drawing techniques like this. Basically it just shows how to draw the sabre prior to engagement but not much else. To a great extent, it's simply how one uses a katana. A katana's not comparable to either a "knightly sword", or to later Western civilian and military swords or sabers, because it and its mode of employment were peculiar to the Japanese culture of its time. Drawing it quickly and slicing the opponent (hopefully fatally) on the draw is integral to its primary role. It's designed primarily to cut people apart (and that done only with the foible, known as the monouchi in Japanese, using a high velocity drawing slice). It has a distant secondary thrusting role, but is seldom used in the parry at all4. Literally and truly, a katana wielder's best defense is a good offense. You're supposed to neutralize each target with the first hit.
Remember that the samurai (a peculiarly Japanese caste who were a combination of military officer, law enforcement, and local gentry all in one) 3, except where it was death to draw a blade, were given to casual violence on little provocation. "Duel" gives the matter more ceremony than was typical when a brawl broke out between some of them. There was also banditry to worry about when traveling, even during the long peace of Edo, and crimes of passion, envy, and revenge to be ready for 1. If nothing else, there'd be occasions when some cheeky commoner would need to be made an example of, or you might just be bored down at the crossroads when some peasant waddled by 2. There were lots of good reasons to cultivate a quick draw. Note well the strong parallels between the Japanese samurai movies and the American western genre. The katana, as its mythology has come down to us, is socially comparable to the Old West six-shooter.
Nukitsuke (pronounced "new-kitz-key") and nukiuchi ("noo-cue-chee") are the heart of iaijutsu, and essentially what the katana is all about, as Skallagrim says in different words in his video, Go learn the meanings of the words, and watch some serious instructional videos of these being done with target cutting involved, and you'll start to understand. The Japanese videos are the best, IMHO, like this one:
Notes:
1. IIRC, among many other examples, there were this incident involving 47 ronin, some off-the-wall office murders when bureaucrats passed over for promotion went postal on co-workers, and, of course, the legendary origin of iaijutsu to begin with (claimed by several koryu, including MJER), when a snot-nosed kid invented nukitsuke to take out the guy who'd killed his father....
3. The apparent resemblances between Western knights and Japanese samurai (as between chivalry and bushido) are superficial, because the institutions evolved differently. The samurai began as humble security guards, and were always legally separate from the hereditary nobility of the imperial court. Western and Japanese feudalism were never exactly equivalent, and some of the differences are glaring, but I won't elaborate on that here.
4. Parry marks on historical katana blades are rare enough to be notable and valued.
Very cool ,thank you for the information. |
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Post by willaumep on Sept 4, 2024 12:36:22 GMT
hello
I think it is mainly cultural set up question, as in there was enough situations that could occurs that it was worth creating a dedicated system/being part of an existing system (for what i understood, the formalisation of quick draw in japan date from the 15th-16th century)
Against civilian clothing, elbow powered tip cuts will work with any swords type XV and rapier included. On a tachi/katana, the "soft spot" is near the tip . So what we call now an "arming swords" ,"knightly swords", messers, long baselard and long cinqueda, especially those up to the 75 cm blade length, could be used the same way. I would even say that "Strike him the point" in the krump to the hands in breaking the ox is exactly that.
In Fiore you have "iado-like" techniques but it feels more a of "just in case" collection techniques and they really gives us time to draw.
.
There are a few techniques in Thallhoffer, they are judicial duel centred, so there is still the idea of breaking the distance rather than the opposition sneaking into it. In KDF, wrestling is used to bypass weapons.
Now, to reliably get through winter clothing or light gambison or padded garment you need to be in the the shoulder powered cut level of energy (IE biomechanically supported elbow strike will be good as well). So as long that type of garment, or possibly more, is expected, fast draw does not make that much of difference to be relied upon.
As well, you need fast draw when it is not culturally acceptable to draw you weapon if you think there is going to be trouble or may be just getting your scabbard in your hand.
Phil
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