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Post by kristjanr on Aug 15, 2024 10:20:55 GMT
I figured I'd get the most answers to my question here so I hope I'm forgiven if I'm a bit off topic but this goes to the general question of how to attach weapon chains to swords or daggers. I found this mid 14th century dagger in a dig report form Leiden in the Netherlands. I've been wantign to make a repica of it for a long while. According to the dig report the dagger has a loop at the top for a weapon chain which I think may have been done on swords of the period as well since those chains were a major thing. IT seems the tang was bent over some how to form that loop. What I find myself puzzlign over is how was that done because I can't seem to find any good photos of these daggers. Has anybody seen closeup photos of one of these things? ... or, alternatively, how would you do it? The dagger with the scabard was found at Leide, the one with no hilt was found at Gorinchem. _
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Aug 15, 2024 12:24:24 GMT
Since I have not found the dig report you speak of this is the closest I could find. myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=348165This thread mentions a possible attachment point at the guard, but there are no pictures of it, could just be an additional guard like a "Nagel" on Messer or Bauernwehr. Or it just could be a wideninng of the guard (with no pictures of it hard to tell). What do you mean by "weaponns chain"? Something that it can't get lost when it's dropped, like a lanyard? You could have a loop on the pommel or a loop integrated into the guard. With only these pictures, there is much room for interpretation.
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Post by kristjanr on Aug 15, 2024 16:16:37 GMT
The end of the tang was somehow rounded into a loop in a way that still securely held the grip in place. I suppose the grip could also have been glued in place. It would have looked something like this:
Perhaps something like this dagger from Rotterdam but this does not seem anything like as secure an attachment for the grip as peening the tang which is why I wondered about whether they may have glued knife and dagger grips to the tang:
The only thing I can think of that seems reasonably robust is to fold the tang over at the end so that a bit of the folded over part sticks out of the end of the grip through a very snug hole in a copper alloy shingle that goes on top of the end of the grip. Then epoxying the tang in place inside the grip and when everything is cured opening the folded over bit of tang that sticks out the top of the grip through the shingle with a chisel.
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Aug 15, 2024 16:37:46 GMT
The loop itself could also function as a peen, add some hide glue and the grip should be solid (nowdays with epoxy, the epoxy alone is enough for a secure grip for everything but hard use). IMHO the biggest problem would be the hardness of that loop. You might need to harden it or it would not hold its shape too well (depending on thickness and steel used), although it should be enough to hold a chain but might roll out if you yank the chain too hard. My guess would be the tang was hammered to the side until it held the grip section, like this there would have been a plate of some kind, the wood alone would not hold: I have seen loops done on pommel nuts, so that would be another way to work it.
EDIT: I honestly would tighten everything before it all cures, you get a much better fit that way. Or at least put a lot of pressure on it from the blade to the butt plate.
EDIT2: Chinese swords often have these kind of nut to attach tassels and cloth.
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Post by kristjanr on Aug 15, 2024 16:48:29 GMT
Ok, this sounds interesting, I was wondering why the tang on that Rottedam dagger was bent (not sure the bend is original), but I'm still a bit hazy about this part: "...the tang was hammered to the side until it held the grip section, like this there would have been a plate of some kind, the wood alone would not hold...". Also, how do you attach those pommel nuts? ... soldering?
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Aug 15, 2024 16:53:59 GMT
Ok, this sounds interesting, I was wondering why the tang on that Rottedam dagger was bent (not sure the bend is original), but I'm still a bit hazy about this part: "...the tang was hammered to the side until it held the grip section, like this there would have been a plate of some kind, the wood alone would not hold...". Also, how do you attach those pommel nuts? ... soldering? Like hammering over a nail, until it's at 90° maybe with some tools so it won't go down all the way and then use mandrel to round it. And a plate like this, you can see it even on the relief you postet.
I am not sure what you mean about the nut, you mean how to attach the ring? Brazing or welding. How you attach the nut to the blade? The tang needs to be threaded.
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Post by kristjanr on Aug 15, 2024 17:07:33 GMT
I am not sure what you mean about the nut, you mean how to attach the ring? brazing. How you attach the nut to the blade? the tang needs to be threaded.
I meant that brass eye at the end of that pommel. Is it brazed to the peened bit of tang that sticks out at the top?
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Post by kristjanr on Aug 15, 2024 17:08:11 GMT
Like hammering over a nail, until it's at 90° maybe with some tools so it won't go down all the way and then use mandrel to round it. I had stumbled across the tang folded over 90 degrees technique on Viking knives except instead of hammering the tang flat on top of the end of the grip, rolling the tang over into a loop instead, is another way of doing it, I just thought it does not very very resilient.
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Aug 15, 2024 17:18:02 GMT
I am not sure what you mean about the nut, you mean how to attach the ring? brazing. How you attach the nut to the blade? the tang needs to be threaded.
I meant that brass eye at the end of that pommel. Is it brazed to the peened bit of tang that sticks out at the top?
No, it's a nut with an eye. It's a pommel nut fully made from brass. You need something for the brazing to flow in that it can hold on, it would not hold too well just brazed on top of something - unless the mating surfaces are big and flat. (google "nut with eye", that's exactly what it is, but specifically made for the sword)
The bent over tang is probably plenty strong for a dagger, but it depends how much you bend it over/work it into the hole of the cover plate and how thick and wide it is. Add a bit of glue and it's enough for a dagger.
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Post by kristjanr on Aug 15, 2024 17:24:32 GMT
I meant that brass eye at the end of that pommel. Is it brazed to the peened bit of tang that sticks out at the top?
No, it's a nut with an eye. It's a pommel nut fully made from brass. You need something for the brazing to flow in that it can hold on, it would nnot hold too well just brazed on top of something.
The bent over tang is probably plenty strong for a dagger, but it depends how much you bend it over/work it into the hole of the cover plate and how thick and wide it is. Add a bit of glue and it's enough for a dagger.
Thanks for your input. I'll make some prototypes out of mild steel to test the various methods.
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Post by kristjanr on Aug 15, 2024 17:37:24 GMT
IMHO the biggest problem would be the hardness of that loop. You might need to harden it or it would not hold its shape too well (depending on thickness and steel used), although it should be enough to hold a chain but might roll out if you yank the chain too hard.
This is true, but that might also be a feature. The chain is mainly meant to enable you to retrieve the dagger if you drop it, the loop and chain connection does not have to hold it at all costs. Thus this kind of bent over, and rolled loop you show in that picture would be strong enough if you merely drop the dagger for it not to be lost. However, if the dagger gets loose somehow in the heat of a fight and then gets caught on something immovable, the loop would still be weak enough to fail and prevent you from being dragged off the horse??
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Aug 15, 2024 17:39:53 GMT
I think brazing the ring to the peen should be possible if you put enough brazing on or create some nice mating surfaces on the ring and peen, but my guess is it will be more complicated than just making a rinng from a longer tang.
There are also those pommel nuts that have a hole drilled and a loose ring put in. Probably, if you make a big peen, you could maybe grind something out where you could drill a hole for a ring.
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Aug 15, 2024 17:44:25 GMT
IMHO the biggest problem would be the hardness of that loop. You might need to harden it or it would not hold its shape too well (depending on thickness and steel used), although it should be enough to hold a chain but might roll out if you yank the chain too hard.
This is true, but that might also be a feature. The chain is mainly meant to enable you to retrieve the dagger if you drop it, the loop and chain connection does not have to hold it at all costs. Thus this kind of bent over, and rolled loop you show in that picture would be strong enough if you merely drop the dagger for it not to be lost. However, if the dagger gets loose somehow in the heat of a fight and then gets caught on something immovable, the loop would still be weak enough to fail and prevent you from being dragged off the horse?? Could be. Who knows. Could also be that it only looks flimsy now because it lost a lot of its mass to the ages. If you make it beefy enough it should hold anyways
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