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Post by bandeaurouge on Aug 8, 2024 16:38:15 GMT
Been going over lots of video on youtube from actual dojos, and an awful lot of videos by guys labelled "master" and "sensie" critiquing sword fights in movies and cartoons.
Something has hit me hard, that the lack of 1 on 1 sparring in iado has really hampered it in the last century. Have seen the 1920s photos of "college students" wearing kendo armor and fighting each other with boken, but nothing seems to come up in the time since.
In the videos particularly from Seki Sensei, the high level students he uses for demonstrations with weapons have no ability to react to changes in what Seki Sensei does.
For example if the student is to attack with "wounded crane stance 4", the student is expecting the victim to react by drawing sword and giving a horizontal slash, but when the victim side steps and draws tanto in an ice pick grip and stabs attacker in the back while leaping forward... the student doing the attacking ALWAYS freezes, and has the most panicked looks on their face.
Is this just a result of fighting imaginary opponents who die the way you want with no effort of resistance. Or is this a result from the students themselves not having the mental faculty to realize that a piece of steel swinging at an opponent WILL cause a reaction they cant predict?
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Post by larason2 on Aug 8, 2024 17:28:56 GMT
There are students who train with bogu, but the sensei has to be careful, as they can kill another student even if they are protected. Where you seem to see the use of a bogu these days is kendo. It's quite popular particularly in Korea, I had a korean friend who did it. They use the full bogu and usually a shinai (weaker bamboo stick) to try and limit injuries. You can still kill someone wearing a bogu with a shinai though! The use of bogu and bokken declined after the period you mention because of student deaths, though they have existed for thousands of years. These days they are used with caution. Kata (exercises) are a valid means of training though, you can get very fast and have a very good form with them. The students you mention sound like they are early in training. Eventually you have to go beyond kata.
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Post by bandeaurouge on Aug 9, 2024 4:14:13 GMT
However, in some Iato, there is no going beyond kata.
But how many that DO go beyond doing kata, and actually sparring, actually do more than rote memorization? IN the Seki Sensei review clip of "The Last Samurai", he was just giddy because at the end they had tom cruise get attacked by 4 guys at night, and that dojo has 1 kata for being attacked by 4 people. with this rough concept of arrangement
front left attacker (fla) front right attacker (fra)
Defender
rear left attacker (rla) rear right attacker (rra)
The only official way to complete the kata is to spin and attack the rear left attacker, and then let the others come at you.
Problem is, if the rear left attacker KNOWS this kata, all he would have to do is back pedal while drawing his sword into a blocking stance. And simply wait for his 3 friends to do you in.
But the defender COULD simply run forward between the front attackers and doing a draw attack cut on the right front attacker as you go buy and dissappear into the night.
SO even if you practice this kata with fellow students at your dojo, its only going to be by "official methodology" so no one is going to actually LEARN how to adapt to the situation.
Who knows, perhaps all attackers are carrying naginata like smart men sent to kill the willey samurai in a dark back alley.
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Post by treeslicer on Aug 9, 2024 17:11:23 GMT
For example if the student is to attack with "wounded crane stance 4", the student is expecting the victim to react by drawing sword and giving a horizontal slash, but when the victim side steps and draws tanto in an ice pick grip and stabs attacker in the back while leaping forward... the student doing the attacking ALWAYS freezes, and has the most panicked looks on their face. Is this just a result of fighting imaginary opponents who die the way you want with no effort of resistance. Or is this a result from the students themselves not having the mental faculty to realize that a piece of steel swinging at an opponent WILL cause a reaction they cant predict? Which is one of the things I might do if somebody used that attack on me. Moving out of the way followed by a stab to an unguarded area is efficient, as anyone skilled in office politics can tell you. IMHO, what you describe is a result of unrealistic training with too many rules being the only experience that the students have. I prefer training as Flavius Josephus said of the Roman armies, "Their exercises are unbloody battles, and their battles bloody exercises."
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Post by noneed2hate on Aug 9, 2024 19:46:47 GMT
Kata are just exercises, the scenarios in the kata are just that: scenarios which help illustrate/train concepts. You don't train for the scenario, you use the scenario to train. At the end of the day, it's just a fraction of the equation/part of a bigger picture.
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