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Post by txhighlander on Jul 7, 2024 19:47:31 GMT
Another question about everyone's favorite show lol. Do you think the judges will ever start wearing proper safety/fencing gear when doing the destructive tests? They are literally trying to break them, and some of the blades have flown back at judges and could have impaled them, or sliced their wrist. They usually just wear safety goggles, which isn't going to stop a broken sword blade. I'm sure they have been asked about this, do you think they will ever wise up??
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izzy
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Post by izzy on Jul 7, 2024 20:55:06 GMT
Only saw one episode in a motel as on principle I don't pay for TV, it was a "make a rapier" challenge...quite entertaining, one sword bent badly. I don't think they will "wise up" unless something bad happens, that is the usual human condition.
OTOH, how many of us wear protective eqpt. with swords of dubious quality when cutting?
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Post by larason2 on Jul 10, 2024 3:16:49 GMT
I wear bogu gear when cutting, but it does cramp your style! On the other hand, it's probably a good practice for actually wearing armor. Usually ken jutsu sensei don't wear protection either, but you usually have to be pretty good before they'll let you use a live blade in the dojo! Even then, they've all been cut multiple times. Even myself polishing swords, I've cut myself countless times. It gets better the more you do it though, like any skill involving knives. My worst cuts weren't on swords though, they were on tools like a drawknife I was using foolishly. Wearing the flowing, loose fitting fabric of a gi and hakama is actually pretty protective. It's tight fitting clothes that a sword will cut through easily. I use cotton fabric like in the gi to get a better hold on a sword a lot, and it won't cut wrapped up in cotton like that. So it turns out it's actually pretty practical. Practice cutting isn't too bad for safety though, it has to be a pretty big fluke for a sword fragment to get you in the chest. Not impossible, but rare. There's certain other sword related activities that are more dangerous. Polishing on a buffer kills smiths on a regular basis.
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Jul 10, 2024 15:30:04 GMT
I wear bogu gear when cutting, but it does cramp your style! On the other hand, it's probably a good practice for actually wearing armor. Usually ken jutsu sensei don't wear protection either, but you usually have to be pretty good before they'll let you use a live blade in the dojo! Even then, they've all been cut multiple times. Even myself polishing swords, I've cut myself countless times. It gets better the more you do it though, like any skill involving knives. My worst cuts weren't on swords though, they were on tools like a drawknife I was using foolishly. Wearing the flowing, loose fitting fabric of a gi and hakama is actually pretty protective. It's tight fitting clothes that a sword will cut through easily. I use cotton fabric like in the gi to get a better hold on a sword a lot, and it won't cut wrapped up in cotton like that. So it turns out it's actually pretty practical. Practice cutting isn't too bad for safety though, it has to be a pretty big fluke for a sword fragment to get you in the chest. Not impossible, but rare. There's certain other sword related activities that are more dangerous. Polishing on a buffer kills smiths on a regular basis. Yeah, but FiF aren't cutting, they are actively trying to destroy the blade. I think it's two fold: Firstly they won't be able to go as much full force when armoured up. Even the best protective gear will hinder movement - although I would appreciate if they would do more realistic fighting cuts than doing the Mordhau all the time it just won't test the sword as much. Also my work in the lab told me the best PPE does nothing for you when you are on the "goin to get hurt today" list. Saw a girl get acid in her eye around full face protection..
Secondly it won't look as good for TV. A bit more clumsy, no faces (this is also the reason why the hero almost never wears a full face covering helmet)....and it might be percieved as less manly (I know this sounds stupid but believe me there are people who think this way)
Also the smiths, most of the guys have zero PPE in the forge, especially awful when on the belt grinder. This is worse for vou than getting cut in the hand when it breaks in the long run. They only began wearing face masks due to the pandemic, not even FFP, just the cheap fabric masks.
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izzy
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Post by izzy on Jul 10, 2024 21:37:43 GMT
I wear bogu gear when cutting, but it does cramp your style! On the other hand, it's probably a good practice for actually wearing armor. Usually ken jutsu sensei don't wear protection either, but you usually have to be pretty good before they'll let you use a live blade in the dojo! Even then, they've all been cut multiple times. Even myself polishing swords, I've cut myself countless times. It gets better the more you do it though, like any skill involving knives. My worst cuts weren't on swords though, they were on tools like a drawknife I was using foolishly. Wearing the flowing, loose fitting fabric of a gi and hakama is actually pretty protective. It's tight fitting clothes that a sword will cut through easily. I use cotton fabric like in the gi to get a better hold on a sword a lot, and it won't cut wrapped up in cotton like that. So it turns out it's actually pretty practical. Practice cutting isn't too bad for safety though, it has to be a pretty big fluke for a sword fragment to get you in the chest. Not impossible, but rare. There's certain other sword related activities that are more dangerous. Polishing on a buffer kills smiths on a regular basis. Yeah, but FiF aren't cutting, they are actively trying to destroy the blade. I think it's two fold: Firstly they won't be able to go as much full force when armoured up. Even the best protective gear will hinder movement - although I would appreciate if they would do more realistic fighting cuts than doing the Mordhau all the time it just won't test the sword as much. Also my work in the lab told me the best PPE does nothing for you when you are on the "goin to get hurt today" list. Saw a girl get acid in her eye around full face protection..
Secondly it won't look as good for TV. A bit more clumsy, no faces (this is also the reason why the hero almost never wears a full face covering helmet)....and it might be percieved as less manly (I know this sounds stupid but believe me there are people who think this way)
Also the smiths, most of the guys have zero PPE in the forge, especially awful when on the belt grinder. This is worse for vou than getting cut in the hand when it breaks in the long run. They only began wearing face masks due to the pandemic, not even FFP, just the cheap fabric masks.
Good point about heavy metals and grinders/ belt grinders. Also there is such a thing as Iron poisoning.
To those who wear armor or just heavy cotton testing out swords kudos to you, it's given me pause for thought on maybe wearing my loose heavy jeans next time.
The handful of times I have been cut -badly- it was not with swords, but 2X with a knife to the face ( one accident, one on purpose), and once a cleaver to the hand and thumb, tired and sick...whilst dismembering a goose. Put gauze and medical tape on it and kept working.
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Post by treeslicer on Jul 11, 2024 0:40:07 GMT
Considering the attempts to win a Darwin Award I witnessed in and around plants, hangars, air fields, vessels of various types, and oil fields over a varied 50-year career, all involving properly trained (and often certified) personnel who knew better than to do what they did, no safety violation committed on a mere TV reality show is likely to amaze me.
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izzy
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Post by izzy on Jul 11, 2024 7:57:38 GMT
Considering the attempts to win a Darwin Award I witnessed in and around plants, hangars, air fields, vessels of various types, and oil fields over a varied 50-year career, all involving properly trained (and often certified) personnel who knew better than to do what they did, no safety violation committed on a mere TV reality show is likely to amaze me.
Unfortunately that generation grew up and Subcontracted to the the the Contractors Boeing used.
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Jul 11, 2024 11:22:04 GMT
Yeah, but FiF aren't cutting, they are actively trying to destroy the blade. I think it's two fold: Firstly they won't be able to go as much full force when armoured up. Even the best protective gear will hinder movement - although I would appreciate if they would do more realistic fighting cuts than doing the Mordhau all the time it just won't test the sword as much. Also my work in the lab told me the best PPE does nothing for you when you are on the "goin to get hurt today" list. Saw a girl get acid in her eye around full face protection..
Secondly it won't look as good for TV. A bit more clumsy, no faces (this is also the reason why the hero almost never wears a full face covering helmet)....and it might be percieved as less manly (I know this sounds stupid but believe me there are people who think this way)
Also the smiths, most of the guys have zero PPE in the forge, especially awful when on the belt grinder. This is worse for vou than getting cut in the hand when it breaks in the long run. They only began wearing face masks due to the pandemic, not even FFP, just the cheap fabric masks.
Good point about heavy metals and grinders/ belt grinders. Also there is such a thing as Iron poisoning.
To those who wear armor or just heavy cotton testing out swords kudos to you, it's given me pause for thought on maybe wearing my loose heavy jeans next time.
The handful of times I have been cut -badly- it was not with swords, but 2X with a knife to the face ( one accident, one on purpose), and once a cleaver to the hand and thumb, tired and sick...whilst dismembering a goose. Put gauze and medical tape on it and kept working.
Not only poisoning (iron is technically a heavy metal, but it's probably the least toxic since the clearance rate is relatively high - it could be possible if you were grinding all day I guess), but the dust getting in the lungs will cause damage, especially when combined with smoking or other toxic inhalants (for example a coal forge...). It might not happen fast, but decreasing lung function is pretty bad.
Not that I have never done it, thought to myself "I don't need a mask to make the tip pointy" only to reprofile the whole thing forgetting to mask up, and I regretted it every time - same with cut resistant gloves....
I use superglue for cuts. It will only hold about a day a time, but the wounds heal twice as fast and water won't get in. I have been cut by a sword, it slipped and ran down the side of the table clipping my thumb, din't try to grab it, my thumb was just at the wrong place.
All the times I have seen someone hurt from a broken blade it was to the hand or arm, and the way they do it it's unlikely to fly to the head, so I get why no full face covering, but why no gloves? - Yes some of the judges use leather gloves, but those aren't that cut resistant. In later seasons they seem to have some kind of sleeve under the clothing but still often no gloves.
Though he pout some on after this one:
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Post by larason2 on Jul 11, 2024 11:42:38 GMT
If I'm polishing and I cut myself, I use superglue too. I don't want to have to stop polishing just for that! The guy in this video could have had it way worse, he could have needed surgery or a prosthesis! Makes me feel better about using bogu gloves.
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Post by treeslicer on Jul 11, 2024 15:21:39 GMT
Considering the attempts to win a Darwin Award I witnessed in and around plants, hangars, air fields, vessels of various types, and oil fields over a varied 50-year career, all involving properly trained (and often certified) personnel who knew better than to do what they did, no safety violation committed on a mere TV reality show is likely to amaze me.
Unfortunately that generation grew up and Subcontracted to the the the Contractors Boeing used.
The perps weren't all youngsters. My all-time favorite bad example was a Navy lifer who picked up a helicopter battery with the prongs facing himself (never, ever, do this) and (unintentionally) attempted to arc weld his big, fancy silver and gold master chief's belt buckle to his bellybutton. Photographs of his navel maneuver1 (including the damage to the buckle and the tummy) were published in Approach magazine (the official USN aviation safety rag), probably hastening his retirement.
1. Pun unashamedly intended.
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izzy
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Post by izzy on Jul 11, 2024 16:40:43 GMT
Unfortunately that generation grew up and Subcontracted to the the the Contractors Boeing used.
The perps weren't all youngsters. My all-time favorite bad example was a Navy lifer who picked up a helicopter battery with the prongs facing himself (never, ever, do this) and (unintentionally) attempted to arc weld his big, fancy silver and gold master chief's belt buckle to his bellybutton. Photographs of his navel maneuver1 (including the damage to the buckle and the tummy) were published in Approach magazine (the official USN aviation safety rag), probably hastening his retirement.
1. Pun unashamedly intended. I do try not to short myself. Yes there has always been silly / stupid people...it just seems they proliferate. Even many of the "smart" people are shortsighted these days.
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izzy
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Post by izzy on Jul 11, 2024 16:52:32 GMT
Good point about heavy metals and grinders/ belt grinders. Also there is such a thing as Iron poisoning.
To those who wear armor or just heavy cotton testing out swords kudos to you, it's given me pause for thought on maybe wearing my loose heavy jeans next time.
The handful of times I have been cut -badly- it was not with swords, but 2X with a knife to the face ( one accident, one on purpose), and once a cleaver to the hand and thumb, tired and sick...whilst dismembering a goose. Put gauze and medical tape on it and kept working.
Not only poisoning (iron is technically a heavy metal, but it's probably the least toxic since the clearance rate is relatively high - it could be possible if you were grinding all day I guess), but the dust getting in the lungs will cause damage, especially when combined with smoking or other toxic inhalants (for example a coal forge...). It might not happen fast, but decreasing lung function is pretty bad.
Not that I have never done it, thought to myself "I don't need a mask to make the tip pointy" only to reprofile the whole thing forgetting to mask up, and I regretted it every time - same with cut resistant gloves....
I use superglue for cuts. It will only hold about a day a time, but the wounds heal twice as fast and water won't get in. I have been cut by a sword, it slipped and ran down the side of the table clipping my thumb, din't try to grab it, my thumb was just at the wrong place.
All the times I have seen someone hurt from a broken blade it was to the hand or arm, and the way they do it it's unlikely to fly to the head, so I get why no full face covering, but why no gloves? - Yes some of the judges use leather gloves, but those aren't that cut resistant. In later seasons they seem to have some kind of sleeve under the clothing but still often no gloves.
Though he pout some on after this one:
Right on, no stitches, less, to no scars. I do use "New Skin" that is similar in action to Super glue but has some clove oil to kill germs. For really bad cuts on the face something like Kelo-Cote silicone gel works wonders can hardly see where the Marine raider Bowie made a big cut ( on purpose), or where the Sheep slaughtering knife cut ( accident).
I can remember being at a real knife shop and asking them to wipe the blade after sharpening, did not want the chromium and nickel dust...as for Iron, that depends. If your anemic then cook on cast Iron exclusively, but I cook mostly on stainless these days, leaving behind my "cast Iron everything phase"...but then I suppose I am eating some of the Chromium and Nickel. Hopefully very slowly.
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Post by larason2 on Jul 11, 2024 23:15:22 GMT
In Japan they drink from a cast iron kettle for the iron (tetsubin), but they are and have always been quite pricey. I got a cheap cast iron camping kettle from a big box store very reasonably, but because it has a rough bottom, I'm afraid it's going to scratch up our glass top range!
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Jul 12, 2024 8:26:24 GMT
Chromium as a metal isn't that toxic, only specific forms (hexavalent) are extremely toxic. The main problem is inhalation, and then it doesn't matter much which of the metals in steel it is. Eating the dust won't harm you either unless you eat grams and grams of it. Even chromium and Nickel are used in the body (There are only 10 non radioactive metals that the body does not use at all), of course contact to nickel will make it more likely you'll be allergic the next time the body gets in contact with it, but again in steel there is very little of it over all. In middle europe people ate (are eating) apples that had nails in for a time, the apple dissolves some of the nail. Tests have shown though that this won't be enough to cover or supplement the iron need for a male, not to speak of a womans, since iron uptake in the gut is only like 3%..
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izzy
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Post by izzy on Jul 12, 2024 12:22:12 GMT
In Japan they drink from a cast iron kettle for the iron (tetsubin), but they are and have always been quite pricey. I got a cheap cast iron camping kettle from a big box store very reasonably, but because it has a rough bottom, I'm afraid it's going to scratch up our glass top range! 3m sandpaper could help...and lots of elbow grease. Some people use power tools to sand rough cast iron. I think even smooth cast Iron might scratch glass with high usage...they are made for open flame ( gas / charcoal) use.
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izzy
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Post by izzy on Jul 12, 2024 12:32:22 GMT
Chromium as a metal isn't that toxic, only specific forms (hexavalent) are extremely toxic. The main problem is inhalation, and then it doesn't matter much which of the metals in steel it is. Eating the dust won't harm you either unless you eat grams and grams of it. Even chromium and Nickel are used in the body (There are only 10 non radioactive metals that the body does not use at all), of course contact to nickel will make it more likely you'll be allergic the next time the body gets in contact with it, but again in steel there is very little of it over all. In middle europe people ate (are eating) apples that had nails in for a time, the apple dissolves some of the nail. Tests have shown though that this won't be enough to cover or supplement the iron need for a male, not to speak of a womans, since iron uptake in the gut is only like 3%.. Interesting...my mother has some kind of Nickel allergy, I personally have sweat that can ( and did) destroy the bright nickel finish on a PPK in a day of bike riding in VA ( small pitting buffed out with flitz, lesson learned and hard chrome for plating form then on...).
Maybe the Iron / apple trick is more bio-available due to the acids in the juice? I know some people put iron nails in their trees to supplement Iron, but never heard of the European way of getting Iron.
( apple Juice might boost Iron uptake to about 7%, go figure )
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rschuch
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Post by rschuch on Jul 12, 2024 15:13:59 GMT
There's a Forged in Fire marathon on Story tv today. Yeah, safety is definitely optional! Especially since most of these guys are knife makers with small forges and then get asked to make swords, well beyond their experience. WE all know about the different steels, but these guys, surprisingly, don't know this or at least don't have the ability to do it properly, creating an accident waiting to happen. I just saw one where the final two had to make a claymore. The blades were the two extremes... One bent on impact, not quite 45° but close. Obviously not a spring steel. The other shattered in several pieces and broke in half, and he was pretty confident to that point so obviously didn't test the flexibility prior to bringing it in. The participants had ..goggles on. Yeah. Someone's gonna get impaled. Maybe that's why people watch, like auto racing, just waiting for something to go wrong.
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Jul 12, 2024 15:23:14 GMT
There's a Forged in Fire marathon on Story tv today. Yeah, safety is definitely optional! Especially since most of these guys are knife makers with small forges and then get asked to make swords, well beyond their experience. WE all know about the different steels, but these guys, surprisingly, don't know this or at least don't have the ability to do it properly, creating an accident waiting to happen. I just saw one where the final two had to make a claymore. The blades were the two extremes... One bent on impact, not quite 45° but close. Obviously not a spring steel. The other shattered in several pieces and broke in half, and he was pretty confident to that point so obviously didn't test the flexibility prior to bringing it in. The participants had ..goggles on. Yeah. Someone's gonna get impaled. Maybe that's why people watch, like auto racing, just waiting for something to go wrong. The failures are definately entertaining - also probably why people like to watch when JoeX and Matthew Jensen berak blades.
I agree though, I am always surprised when the heat treat is so off, especially since they NEVER show the tempering process (cause it's boring), but not even mention it. It has happened a few times where one guy won with a sharpened bar stock while the other had a really nice blade but it shattered like glass. I can't fathom why you would use up your time to make it beautiful and the skimp on the heat treat.... EDIT: Many times they made only knives before, so they probably go as hard as they would make a knife...Still why would you not do your homework about steel?
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Post by paulmuaddib on Jul 12, 2024 15:38:47 GMT
Chromium as a metal isn't that toxic, only specific forms (hexavalent) are extremely toxic. The main problem is inhalation, and then it doesn't matter much which of the metals in steel it is. Eating the dust won't harm you either unless you eat grams and grams of it. Even chromium and Nickel are used in the body (There are only 10 non radioactive metals that the body does not use at all), of course contact to nickel will make it more likely you'll be allergic the next time the body gets in contact with it, but again in steel there is very little of it over all. In middle europe people ate (are eating) apples that had nails in for a time, the apple dissolves some of the nail. Tests have shown though that this won't be enough to cover or supplement the iron need for a male, not to speak of a womans, since iron uptake in the gut is only like 3%.. Interesting...my mother has some kind of Nickel allergy, I personally have sweat that can ( and did) destroy the bright nickel finish on a PPK in a day of bike riding in VA ( small pitting buffed out with flitz, lesson learned and hard chrome for plating form then on...).
Maybe the Iron / apple trick is more bio-available due to the acids in the juice? I know some people put iron nails in their trees to supplement Iron, but never heard of the European way of getting Iron.
( apple Juice might boost Iron uptake to about 7%, go figure )
Iirc, and this is from many years ago, to absorb the iron from a cast iron skillet you need to cook something acidic in them. The example I remember was tomatoes. Anything non acidic doesn’t absorb any iron from the skillet. Like I said I read this about 30 or so years ago so I could be misremembering.
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Jul 12, 2024 15:55:10 GMT
Interesting...my mother has some kind of Nickel allergy, I personally have sweat that can ( and did) destroy the bright nickel finish on a PPK in a day of bike riding in VA ( small pitting buffed out with flitz, lesson learned and hard chrome for plating form then on...).
Maybe the Iron / apple trick is more bio-available due to the acids in the juice? I know some people put iron nails in their trees to supplement Iron, but never heard of the European way of getting Iron.
( apple Juice might boost Iron uptake to about 7%, go figure )
Iirc, and this is from many years ago, to absorb the iron from a cast iron skillet you need to cook something acidic in them. The example I remember was tomatoes. Anything non acidic doesn’t absorb any iron from the skillet. Like I said I read this about 30 or so years ago so I could be misremembering. No, this is correct, iron passivates (creating a small layer of insoluable iron compounds) under neutral and basic conditions and will only dissolve very slightly if at all, while acids break off iron ions and make them soluable in water as a salt. Also why acidic foods make iron better usably by the body.
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