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Post by creatineboy on May 22, 2024 18:10:10 GMT
I am not new to history and recently have started getting into swords.i have contracted someone to build me one and I have also bought a type xvi arming sword made of spring steel. The sword I had built was made out of 1095 "high quality" carbon steel. I want to know what is the main difference and how will it affect me?
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Post by creatineboy on May 22, 2024 18:16:21 GMT
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on May 22, 2024 18:23:45 GMT
Hi creatineboy and welcome to the forum!
Spring steel is a group of steels usually with less carbon than 1095 but often with alloys to make it tougher.
1095 has ca. 1 % carbon, spring steels ca. 0,5 - 0,8 %.
More carbon means harder and more brittle, but the actual heat treatment is more important than this rule of thumb.
If your commissioned sword is an European sword type too you probably will experience no difference to the spring steel one.
(Edit: I've seen in your other post it is)
1095 is better for differentially heat treatment like katana have, with a very hard edge and a softer spine.
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Post by mrstabby on May 22, 2024 19:15:02 GMT
At the same hardness a spring steel will need more bending to stay bent than a 10-Series steel (like 1095, the last 2 numbers are basically carbon content, 1045=0,45%, 1065=0,65% etc). Hardness is the most important factor, high hardness means the edge will stay sharp for longer but also be more brittle and chip or break, harder blade also means it will be a bit stiffer than a softer one. Softer blades won't break as easily but the edge won't stay sharp as long. 1095 has a high hardness potential, but that does not mean you need to go to that hardness. It can be a good steel if not too hard. XVI being relatively beefy I think 1095 is OK, for thinner, less wide blades the toughness of lower carbon steel or spring steel is better.
EDIT: You might want to inquire about hardness, it is measured in Rockwell C for steel (either RC or HRC), 50-55 is commonly said to be a good range for swords, although 1095 should not be on the high side of that. Differentially hardened blades have harder edges, around 60HRC for japanese ones and softer backs, around 40HRC, making them less resistant to bending but making the edge last longer without the sword being too briittle to use. This can also be used for double edged swords, but is seldomly done.
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Post by madirish on May 22, 2024 23:10:55 GMT
What is your intended use case for the sword?
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Post by larason2 on May 23, 2024 6:20:02 GMT
Technically, you can make "spring steel" out of 1095, though typically the carbon content is lower, because 1095 is a bit more brittle when spring tempered, and so more likely to break rather than behave like a spring (especially if left on the hard side as mentioned). In theory, spring steel is carbon steel that has had a spring temper applied to it. This means that it is brought to a higher heat and kept there for a while than a carbon steel that isn't spring tempered. In practice though, sword manufacturers do whatever they want and call it spring steel, so it isn't uncommon to buy a "spring steel" blade that wasn't spring tempered. If you're actually using it as a spring, spring tempering is a must, otherwise you won't get the return to its previous shape after a deformation event for some applications. For swords though, very few get bent the way a steel spring will, so it usually doesn't matter that much. Any steel, even spring steel, will either not return to its previous shape or break if deformed far enough, so being spring tempered alone isn't a guarantee a sword won't take a set or break. Also as mentioned, sometimes spring steels have other alloys mixed in to make them more durable as a spring, but it doesn't affect their performance as a sword much. I've made folder knife springs, and it's fairly finicky to get the spring temper on them right. This and the fact it doesn't matter much for a sword explains why it isn't always done properly.
In this case, I wouldn't worry too much. Most likely your arming sword is something like 1075, and it may or may not have actually been spring tempered. For your purposes, it probably shouldn't matter. As for the 1095, it will hold an edge a bit better, but it will be slightly more brittle and therefore more likely to break if really stressed. The harder they leave it when heat treating it, the more this will be the case, which is why it shouldn't be left too hard. A custom smith with experience will know all this though, so I would just leave it to them. Whether you get it spring steel or 1095, you'll probably get a good blade and the differences won't matter very much.
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Post by Curtis_Louis on May 24, 2024 15:40:06 GMT
Out-of my two swords I recently purchased,the custom one is 1095 carbon steel the xvi arming sword is spring steel. Which is better and how does it affect me? |
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Post by creatineboy on May 25, 2024 0:33:29 GMT
Hi creatineboy and welcome to the forum! Spring steel is a group of steels usually with less carbon than 1095 but often with alloys to make it tougher. 1095 has ca. 1 % carbon, spring steels ca. 0,5 - 0,8 %. More carbon means harder and more brittle, but the actual heat treatment is more important than this rule of thumb. If your commissioned sword is an European sword type too you probably will experience no difference to the spring steel one. (Edit: I've seen in your other post it is) 1095 is better for differentially heat treatment like katana have, with a very hard edge and a softer spine. Thank you for your welcome, and your information about swords. The one with the brown handle is the one I had made.To me it looks like a hybrid between an XIV and an Xa. |
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Post by creatineboy on May 25, 2024 0:33:48 GMT
Out-of my two swords I recently purchased,the custom one is 1095 carbon steel the xvi arming sword is spring steel. Which is better and how does it affect me? Thank you |
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Post by creatineboy on May 25, 2024 0:37:56 GMT
Technically, you can make "spring steel" out of 1095, though typically the carbon content is lower, because 1095 is a bit more brittle when spring tempered, and so more likely to break rather than behave like a spring (especially if left on the hard side as mentioned). In theory, spring steel is carbon steel that has had a spring temper applied to it. This means that it is brought to a higher heat and kept there for a while than a carbon steel that isn't spring tempered. In practice though, sword manufacturers do whatever they want and call it spring steel, so it isn't uncommon to buy a "spring steel" blade that wasn't spring tempered. If you're actually using it as a spring, spring tempering is a must, otherwise you won't get the return to its previous shape after a deformation event for some applications. For swords though, very few get bent the way a steel spring will, so it usually doesn't matter that much. Any steel, even spring steel, will either not return to its previous shape or break if deformed far enough, so being spring tempered alone isn't a guarantee a sword won't take a set or break. Also as mentioned, sometimes spring steels have other alloys mixed in to make them more durable as a spring, but it doesn't affect their performance as a sword much. I've made folder knife springs, and it's fairly finicky to get the spring temper on them right. This and the fact it doesn't matter much for a sword explains why it isn't always done properly. In this case, I wouldn't worry too much. Most likely your arming sword is something like 1075, and it may or may not have actually been spring tempered. For your purposes, it probably shouldn't matter. As for the 1095, it will hold an edge a bit better, but it will be slightly more brittle and therefore more likely to break if really stressed. The harder they leave it when heat treating it, the more this will be the case, which is why it shouldn't be left too hard. A custom smith with experience will know all this though, so I would just leave it to them. Whether you get it spring steel or 1095, you'll probably get a good blade and the differences won't matter very much. The true XIV arming sword was available either in pattern welded steel or spring steel. I chose spring steel used on stuff I read.i wanted one to keep an edge and be durable,not fall apart. I agree,I'll leave it to the smith. I just want one that for real would've been at home on a middle ages battlefield.sounds weird,but that's what I'm after. |
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Post by creatineboy on May 25, 2024 0:40:03 GMT
What is your intended use case for the sword? Thanks for bringing thst up. The hardness is different on the edge than it is down the center.i think the edge is 55 or 60 and the middle a lower number I believe. Does that sound right? |
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Post by creatineboy on May 25, 2024 6:16:39 GMT
What is your intended use case for the sword? Thanks for bringing thst up. The hardness is different on the edge than it is down the center.i think the edge is 55 or 60 and the middle a lower number I believe. Does that sound right? I intend to use my one sword to learn some things about swordplay then hang it up on the wall beside the other one,which I will probably not use to cut anything. And I don't want dull or flimsy replicas,I want real swords that would've been real swords 1000 years ago. |
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Post by mrstabby on May 25, 2024 7:55:57 GMT
Pattern welded blades can keep an edge longer than monosteel, but monosteel is easier (less to go wrong, no welds that can fail) and gets a more homogeneous temper therefore might end up tougher.
If there is a hardness difference between edge and center, it's per definition not spring tempered - still can be spring steel.
Spring temper and spring steel mean different things to me, specific steels like 5160, 60SiMnA are spring steels, but you can spring temper many steels, just more difficult. Spring steels have additional elements that make it easier to hit the spring temper and also add toughness and more edge retention than a plain carbon of the same hardenss (added edge retention - very minimal, added toughnes a very big margain). Of course 1095 also is sold under the moniker of "spring steel" because it was used in springs before the specific alloys came around, even when it's not spring tempered..
If you are only training forms and not cutting anything it won't matter much what steel or temper. If the edge is around 55HRC should be fine, at 60HRC you have to be more careful with edge alignment when hitting stuff (will depend a lot on the target, but at 60HRC even soft targets can break out sizeable chunks, especially if it really is 1095). Also the edge being harder means you can't really reprofile the blade, because if you grind off the hardened edge, it will only leave soft metal for the edge.
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Post by creatineboy on May 25, 2024 8:56:20 GMT
Technically, you can make "spring steel" out of 1095, though typically the carbon content is lower, because 1095 is a bit more brittle when spring tempered, and so more likely to break rather than behave like a spring (especially if left on the hard side as mentioned). In theory, spring steel is carbon steel that has had a spring temper applied to it. This means that it is brought to a higher heat and kept there for a while than a carbon steel that isn't spring tempered. In practice though, sword manufacturers do whatever they want and call it spring steel, so it isn't uncommon to buy a "spring steel" blade that wasn't spring tempered. If you're actually using it as a spring, spring tempering is a must, otherwise you won't get the return to its previous shape after a deformation event for some applications. For swords though, very few get bent the way a steel spring will, so it usually doesn't matter that much. Any steel, even spring steel, will either not return to its previous shape or break if deformed far enough, so being spring tempered alone isn't a guarantee a sword won't take a set or break. Also as mentioned, sometimes spring steels have other alloys mixed in to make them more durable as a spring, but it doesn't affect their performance as a sword much. I've made folder knife springs, and it's fairly finicky to get the spring temper on them right. This and the fact it doesn't matter much for a sword explains why it isn't always done properly. In this case, I wouldn't worry too much. Most likely your arming sword is something like 1075, and it may or may not have actually been spring tempered. For your purposes, it probably shouldn't matter. As for the 1095, it will hold an edge a bit better, but it will be slightly more brittle and therefore more likely to break if really stressed. The harder they leave it when heat treating it, the more this will be the case, which is why it shouldn't be left too hard. A custom smith with experience will know all this though, so I would just leave it to them. Whether you get it spring steel or 1095, you'll probably get a good blade and the differences won't matter very much. The arming sword u bought is spring steel, the hybridized sword you see is "high quality" 1095..will it hold a sharp edge? |
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Post by mrstabby on May 25, 2024 9:13:14 GMT
The arming sword u bought is spring steel, the hybridized sword you see is "high quality" 1095..will it hold a sharp edge? That does depend on the hardness and what you mean by "hold a sharp edge". A soft 45HRC can be ground sharp, will also survive a bit of cutting, but surely will incur a badly rolled edge from hitting something harder like the neck of a bottle. 50HRC will get measurably less damage, 55HRC even less but at 60HRC it will very likely chip badly. On the soft parts of the bottle the 60HRC edge will need much less honing than the 50HRC (given the edge alignment isn't off). Also depends on the target, plastic bottles are worse than pool noodles, tatami is more abrasive than bottles. |
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Post by creatineboy on May 25, 2024 9:29:57 GMT
The arming sword u bought is spring steel, the hybridized sword you see is "high quality" 1095..will it hold a sharp edge? That does depend on the hardness and what you mean by "hold a sharp edge". A soft 45HRC can be ground sharp, will also survive a bit of cutting, but surely will incur a badly rolled edge from hitting something harder like the neck of a bottle. 50HRC will get measurably less damage, 55HRC even less but at 60HRC it will very likely chip badly. On the soft parts of the bottle the 60HRC edge will need much less honing than the 50HRC (given the edge alignment isn't off). Also depends on the target, plastic bottles are worse than pool noodles, tatami is more abrasive than bottles. Thank you |
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Post by mrstabby on May 25, 2024 9:36:38 GMT
That does depend on the hardness and what you mean by "hold a sharp edge". A soft 45HRC can be ground sharp, will also survive a bit of cutting, but surely will incur a badly rolled edge from hitting something harder like the neck of a bottle. 50HRC will get measurably less damage, 55HRC even less but at 60HRC it will very likely chip badly. On the soft parts of the bottle the 60HRC edge will need much less honing than the 50HRC (given the edge alignment isn't off). Also depends on the target, plastic bottles are worse than pool noodles, tatami is more abrasive than bottles. Thank you One more thing to consider even more important than steel or hardness: Edge angle, the shallower the angle, the sharper it gets but also gets more succeptible to damage. The angle the bevel is ground, if it is convex or straight, will determine how long a sword stays sharp. |
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Post by creatineboy on May 27, 2024 23:52:29 GMT
One more thing to consider even more important than steel or hardness: Edge angle, the shallower the angle, the sharper it gets but also gets more succeptible to damage. The angle the bevel is ground, if it is convex or straight, will determine how long a sword stays sharp. Thank you very much |
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