|
|
Post by ragebot on May 18, 2024 0:59:15 GMT
I am a backyard cutter with some Japanese and European beater swords. I am looking to add something like a jiam/gim, cutting rapier (I know that is somewhat of a niche sword), arming sword, or other options. I would like the option of using two hands (or at least hand and a half) and double edge sword. Since it will be a cutting beater sword I am expecting less (hopefully much less) than $US500. Also not wedded to only getting a single sword. This is an example of a top tier choice lkchensword.com/munich-town-guard-swordor some other LK Chen rapier and this is a bang for the buck example sbg-sword-store.sword-buyers-guide.com/product847.html |
|
|
|
Post by eastman on May 18, 2024 4:13:59 GMT
The LK Chen Munich Town Guard is a great sword. Overall my favorite of the 3 Renaissance swords I have from them (also have the Saxony and the Vincentio Italian 7-ring rapier). Not sure how it would work as a hand-and-a-half though.
|
|
mrstabby
Member
Posts: 1,842
Member is Online
|
Post by mrstabby on May 18, 2024 7:42:52 GMT
Many of LK Chens Jian are usable with 2 hands. Ming era are best cutters, warring states the most stiff because of the 8-sided blade geometry, and Han era are the lightest but also long and flexible, not unlike rapier blades (but half as heavy). Hanwei has the Rodell cutting jian, pretty much a Gale wind with shorter handle. JKOO has a few very cheap models made from spring steel, I have heard good things but no hands-on experience.
EDIT: The CS Gims all have similar length hilts to arming swords, no hand-and-a-half, unless you cup the pommel.
|
|
izzy
Member
14 Day Ban - Politics
Posts: 427
|
Post by izzy on May 18, 2024 20:17:06 GMT
Your best bet is LK Chen. Mr. Stabby and others have done reviews on the Jian, pick your model carefully. The Munich town guard is one of their better models. If you want Chinese and just want to cut you can go a little cheaper and get the "military" Da Dao with a short thick blade and large thin handle.
If I had to go "cheap" I would go APOC, on paper their long sword is heavy, but should cut OK once you put a proper edge on it ( needs sharpening).
Ryujin has a mixed reputation, one could take a chance on the 65Mn, but don't expect too much.
Jkoo "spring steel" according to Lancelot Chan takes set easy ( bad temper):
|
|
|
|
Post by ragebot on May 18, 2024 22:46:31 GMT
Your best bet is LK Chen. Mr. Stabby and others have done reviews on the Jian, pick your model carefully. The Munich town guard is one of their better models. If you want Chinese and just want to cut you can go a little cheaper and get the "military" Da Dao with a short thick blade and large thin handle.
If I had to go "cheap" I would go APOC, on paper their long sword is heavy, but should cut OK once you put a proper edge on it ( needs sharpening).
Ryujin has a mixed reputation, one could take a chance on the 65Mn, but don't expect too much.
Jkoo "spring steel" according to Lancelot Chan takes set easy ( bad temper):
I have the APOC tactical long sword. Out of the box I had to spend the better part of an hour using my KO WS to finally get it to cut paper to my satisfaction. While I am not unhappy with it it is definitely a two handed sword, way more so than any katana I have. From everything I have seen a jiam/gim is light enough to be used one handed but some have long enough handles to get the extra power two hands provide. |
|
AndiTheBarvarian
Member
"Lord of the Memes"
Bavarianbarbarian - Semper Semprini
Posts: 10,328
Member is Online
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on May 18, 2024 23:45:12 GMT
APOC has a jian too, with a relative long grip, a hand and a half at least.
I like mine.
Nice daisho together with the longsword.
Jian/gim exist in various size and length, from gladius to twohander, there even was found a spadroon like jian with a d-guard.
Btw if you're ever looking for a two handed usable gladius there is the Legacy Arms Maintz (with "tz").
|
|
izzy
Member
14 Day Ban - Politics
Posts: 427
|
Post by izzy on May 19, 2024 10:14:14 GMT
APOC has a jian too, with a relative long grip, a hand and a half at least. I like mine. Nice daisho together with the longsword. Jian/gim exist in various size and length, from gladius to twohander, there even was found a spadroon like jian with a d-guard. Btw if you're ever looking for a two handed usable gladius there is the Legacy Arms Maintz (with "tz"). How did you find the integrated "pommel" area? To me it looks like it could use some rounding by the end of the grip, at least from the pictures...the APOC Jian is one on my "possible" list as well. With the 6.25 inch grip looks like an ersatz hand and a half, if one uses the "pommel" area. Generally speaking most APOC have decent heat treat. 6-3mm via KOA, so it should be on the stiff side for a jian ( which is good in my book, not a fan of floppy swords). It's something to think about for the OP, even if it's not 100% traditional, but neither is the zinc fittings on the Ryujin.
And yes as stated, it needs a good sharpening job...that is the downside to APOC.
|
|
|
|
Post by pellius on May 19, 2024 12:32:03 GMT
This is a very robust sword with good handling. It seems to boast all of the specs you’re looking for: www.kultofathena.com/product/hanwei-chinese-cutting-sword/I don’t know of any rapier that will accommodate two hand use for cutting. Whatever you choose, please let us know how it works out. |
|
AndiTheBarvarian
Member
"Lord of the Memes"
Bavarianbarbarian - Semper Semprini
Posts: 10,328
Member is Online
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on May 19, 2024 14:42:32 GMT
Look here on the left, Germanisches Nationalmuseum in Nürnberg, I didn't trust my eyes first too:  The APOC jian's "pommel" is a bit edgy but only as thick as the tang. Gripping with two hands my little finger rests on it, it's not extremely comfortable but ok for me (otherwise I would have wrapped it too) |
|
|
|
Post by ragebot on May 19, 2024 22:28:29 GMT
This is a very robust sword with good handling. It seems to boast all of the specs you’re looking for: www.kultofathena.com/product/hanwei-chinese-cutting-sword/I don’t know of any rapier that will accommodate two hand use for cutting. Whatever you choose, please let us know how it works out. I posted another thread kinda along these lines and Andy responded I probably should get more than one sword; something he is likely correct about. I have looked at that sword along with a "giant dao" which allows two hands. One of the biggest issues I have found is (while not this option) there seems to be an overload of 'not in stock' swords. The sword you linked to is a little over two pounds while I have seen other two handed gims around a pound and a half while many of the two handed jains tend to be a little heavier. I can't remember which is which but the gim/jain name seems to be the difference between using Mandrin/Cantonese. |
|
|
|
Post by larason2 on May 20, 2024 3:29:46 GMT
I don't know Cantonese very well, but I did study Mandarin, and Jian is the double edged sword in Mandarin using the pinyin romanization system. It looks like using jyutping, the romanization system in Hong Kong, the same character is "gim." Still, neither romanization shows how to pronounce either of them perfectly in either language.
|
|
mrstabby
Member
Posts: 1,842
Member is Online
|
Post by mrstabby on May 20, 2024 8:18:18 GMT
This is a very robust sword with good handling. It seems to boast all of the specs you’re looking for: www.kultofathena.com/product/hanwei-chinese-cutting-sword/I don’t know of any rapier that will accommodate two hand use for cutting. Whatever you choose, please let us know how it works out. I posted another thread kinda along these lines and Andy responded I probably should get more than one sword; something he is likely correct about. I have looked at that sword along with a "giant dao" which allows two hands. One of the biggest issues I have found is (while not this option) there seems to be an overload of 'not in stock' swords. The sword you linked to is a little over two pounds while I have seen other two handed gims around a pound and a half while many of the two handed jains tend to be a little heavier. I can't remember which is which but the gim/jain name seems to be the difference between using Mandrin/Cantonese. Tha Hanwei Cutting Jian is, as I mentioned, just a Ming jian with a longer handle. Scott Rodell prefers longer handles (if you want he has some videos online). Although it is lighter than the Gale Wind, both handle pretty much the same. Unless you really need the longer handle, you get better package in the Gale Wind. It comes with a better finish and much, much sharper (although it's weirdly sharp, very toothy but good apex, still a bit rippy on some targets). All the two handed Jian I have seen are in the 2lbs range or lower. AFIAK they were more common early on (Han dynasty) and very, very light (rapier-like blades), how they were used? We don't really know. Many with Ming-type furniture I'd class as "fantasy", just put a longer hilt on a Ming sword (often times they sell a one handed version that looks the same as well).
|
|
izzy
Member
14 Day Ban - Politics
Posts: 427
|
Post by izzy on May 20, 2024 10:29:34 GMT
This is a very robust sword with good handling. It seems to boast all of the specs you’re looking for: www.kultofathena.com/product/hanwei-chinese-cutting-sword/I don’t know of any rapier that will accommodate two hand use for cutting. Whatever you choose, please let us know how it works out. I posted another thread kinda along these lines and Andy responded I probably should get more than one sword; something he is likely correct about. I have looked at that sword along with a "giant dao" which allows two hands. One of the biggest issues I have found is (while not this option) there seems to be an overload of 'not in stock' swords. The sword you linked to is a little over two pounds while I have seen other two handed gims around a pound and a half while many of the two handed jains tend to be a little heavier. I can't remember which is which but the gim/jain name seems to be the difference between using Mandrin/Cantonese. For a big Dao one could consider LK Chen's Crossbowmen's Dao, mfg's target is 54-55 HRC, somewhat harder than Hanwei wich are about 50 HRC, 60Si2MnA is nice option on the LK Chen.
One handed swings are OK when one chokes up to the guard, but it definitely benefits from 2 hand use with the long grip, well balanced for it's size.
|
|
izzy
Member
14 Day Ban - Politics
Posts: 427
|
Post by izzy on May 20, 2024 10:34:13 GMT
Look here on the left, Germanisches Nationalmuseum in Nürnberg, I didn't trust my eyes first too: The APOC jian's "pommel" is a bit edgy but only as thick as the tang. Gripping with two hands my little finger rests on it, it's not extremely comfortable but ok for me (otherwise I would have wrapped it too) YES. Shows variation in blades, not everything is so "cut and dry", people and even objects cant always be labeled and stuffed in a Manila envelope. There are always throwbacks in every age. |
|
mrstabby
Member
Posts: 1,842
Member is Online
|
Post by mrstabby on May 20, 2024 11:06:32 GMT
I posted another thread kinda along these lines and Andy responded I probably should get more than one sword; something he is likely correct about. I have looked at that sword along with a "giant dao" which allows two hands. One of the biggest issues I have found is (while not this option) there seems to be an overload of 'not in stock' swords. The sword you linked to is a little over two pounds while I have seen other two handed gims around a pound and a half while many of the two handed jains tend to be a little heavier. I can't remember which is which but the gim/jain name seems to be the difference between using Mandrin/Cantonese. For a big Dao one could consider LK Chen's Crossbowmen's Dao, mfg's target is 54-55 HRC, somewhat harder than Hanwei wich are about 50 HRC, 60Si2MnA is nice option on the LK Chen.
One handed swings are OK when one chokes up to the guard, but it definitely benefits from 2 hand use with the long grip, well balanced for it's size.
What's the true weight of it? I don't trust LKCs homepage, it's often off by at least 100g. You can definately feel the diference in hardness, a lot better edge retention on hard targets, also a lot harder to sharpen. Mine all pretty much fall around 55HRC, none is much harder than the other (with Windlass there is much stronger variation, some can scratch others). I have no idea what the actual hardness for the pattern welded steel is, though they say it's 55HRC as well, might mean pattern and mono behave pretty similar.
|
|
izzy
Member
14 Day Ban - Politics
Posts: 427
|
Post by izzy on May 20, 2024 19:27:55 GMT
For a big Dao one could consider LK Chen's Crossbowmen's Dao, mfg's target is 54-55 HRC, somewhat harder than Hanwei wich are about 50 HRC, 60Si2MnA is nice option on the LK Chen.
One handed swings are OK when one chokes up to the guard, but it definitely benefits from 2 hand use with the long grip, well balanced for it's size.
What's the true weight of it? I don't trust LKCs homepage, it's often off by at least 100g. You can definately feel the diference in hardness, a lot better edge retention on hard targets, also a lot harder to sharpen. Mine all pretty much fall around 55HRC, none is much harder than the other (with Windlass there is much stronger variation, some can scratch others). I have no idea what the actual hardness for the pattern welded steel is, though they say it's 55HRC as well, might mean pattern and mono behave pretty similar.
Best I can do is put it on a trade scale supposedly accurate within 1/2 a gram under optimal conditions...and the result was 1422.5 g laid flat overhanging the scale ( which is not best for accurate weighing)...the blade is over the approximate "target" of 1326 by around 96 g.
My particular example is also a bit thinner than 3.5 mm near the tip ( more like 3.35mm) measured with calipers, so I think they are trying in to address the issue a bit (?). I personally would prefer that extra thickness near the tip, but the sword handles well for it's size. I think it would be tiring to use one handed for most people over extended use, but it has good enough balance that it can be used as such if need be.
|
|
|
|
Post by larason2 on May 20, 2024 21:46:40 GMT
We know the Jian used in the warring states period were used as general purpose swords, largely replacing the dagger axes that were more common up to that point. However, they were particularly known for use in sword dances (which were one of the main forms of entertainment), and for duels. In fact, even when the Dao took over after the warring states, Jian were still used for sword dances for entertainment and for duels (though not for much else). In the Ming, it became fashionable for everyone to have a Jian again, so that is what most military leaders and state officials wore. After that, the Dao became popular again, but the Jian always has had important symbolism because of its important role in the culture.
In the warring states you still had bronze swords and dagger axes being used, and combat was more archery/chariot focused, so the Jian didn't have to be so heavy. Once they started having a lot of infantry engagements and steel daos on the battlefield though, they started making the Jian heavier. In my opinion 2 lbs still isn't that heavy for a sword, and these are still pretty long for one handed swords, but don't feel very tip heavy to use.
"Chinese Martial Arts" by Peter Lorge is a good source to understand Chinese sword history.
|
|
|
|
Post by ragebot on May 23, 2024 17:26:01 GMT
This seems to be a hard to find item but the D Guard Jian from LK Chen seems like something that may be at the head of my list. Has anyone used this. This vid was quite interesting to me not only for spotlighting what seems like something that I want but the historical stuff as well.
|
|
