Greg E
Member
little bit of this... and a whole lot of that
Posts: 1,354 
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Post by Greg E on Mar 3, 2024 22:58:10 GMT
Greg E Very nice! What thickness and weight veg tan leather are you using? I ordered some leather stamps and rollers on etsy today so I can do some easy decorations. erichofprovence Do I have/need to soak the plywood before clamping? Do you clamp all layers at the same time or or one by one to take the shape of the blade? Cheers I have used 2-3oz leather for the scabbard wrap. The belts are thicker and vary depending on preference and pieces used to complete them. |
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Post by erichofprovence on Mar 4, 2024 12:14:14 GMT
Thank you. I wonder if using a painters tape at the edges would help to align and help stabilize the clamps.
Also maybe using a painters tape again; or (some double sided tape) taping the blade to the bottom layer and stabilize the alignment while shaping.
I'd be careful using tape to fix the blade to the core (although painter's tape shouldn't damage the felt lining). I know that Peter Johnsson uses a peg that goes through the tip of the two half cores to keep the alignment, but I never managed to make it work right. |
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Post by mrstabby on Mar 4, 2024 12:31:31 GMT
What exactly is the felt liner for? I have tried but found I poke and cut holes in it sheathing and unsheathing the sword, so I leave them bare for now, with a coating of petroleum jelly or RenWax.
I've been planning to use some ABS-plates and my heat gut to make a scabbard in the future, but my health won't allow new projects right now..
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Post by erichofprovence on Mar 4, 2024 13:23:52 GMT
What exactly is the felt liner for? I have tried but found I poke and cut holes in it sheathing and unsheathing the sword, so I leave them bare for now, with a coating of petroleum jelly or RenWax. I've been planning to use some ABS-plates and my heat gut to make a scabbard in the future, but my health won't allow new projects right now.. I found that the core without a liner tends to scratch the blade. The felt I am using is very compact and sticks very strongly to the wood and since the veneer cores are moulded around the blade, it is difficult to "stab" the felt. |
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LeMal
Member
Posts: 1,185
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Post by LeMal on Mar 4, 2024 13:23:57 GMT
A coat of spray shellac on clean, dry metal while working around it is a good temporary moisture protectant, then just remove with alcohol when you're done.
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Post by mrstabby on Mar 5, 2024 13:49:36 GMT
So, I have a question to all the builders: How do you make a scabbard for asymmetric swords, like Dao with a flared out tip? I think the only way here is carving, right? Do I just make the whole thing as wide as the widest part of the blade (no extreme curve so no need for a cut-out back like on a Shamshir). I could just be lazy and glue some spacers as wide as the blade and not carve it out I guess. And to restrict the blade from rattling (because it is wider at the tip it will have movement at the scabbard mouth) I put some shims in at the mouth that force the blade to stay put, correct?
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Post by erichofprovence on Mar 5, 2024 15:15:50 GMT
So, I have a question to all the builders: How do you make a scabbard for asymmetric swords, like Dao with a flared out tip? I think the only way here is carving, right? Do I just make the whole thing as wide as the widest part of the blade (no extreme curve so no need for a cut-out back like on a Shamshir). I could just be lazy and glue some spacers as wide as the blade and not carve it out I guess. And to restrict the blade from rattling (because it is wider at the tip it will have movement at the scabbard mouth) I put some shims in at the mouth that force the blade to stay put, correct? Good question. I actually never did a scabbard for something like a Dao. I did one for a Kukri and I basically paid extra attention to the outline of the core, so that it would be wide enough to pull out the blade. Then, when it came to gluing the sheets on each side of the blade, I took care of positioning the clamps at the same distance from the edge. That way it doesn't align too much with the narrower parts of the blade. Finally, when I add the spacers, I play around with the thickness of the edges, to get the fit the way I like it, not too tight but maintaining blade retention. I hope this makes sense.   |
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Post by larason2 on Mar 6, 2024 2:09:40 GMT
I've never accommodated a dao, but for a katana you make an outline of the blade. Under normal circumstances you make it larger on the blade side to accommodate movement. If you have a deep sori, or for a very curved dao like a naginata, the idea is to keep the spine profile the same, but leave a lot more room of wood on the edge side, then after you've finished carving the basic form, test running the blade in along the spine with it in half, marking where the maximum amplitude is, then carving that out on the blade side. With really deep sori, it's necessary to angle the handle toward the spine side of the saya, then at a certain point straighten it. If you make this bend too narrow, it's going to be hard to insert it, but if the bend is too loose, the saya will be loose on the blade. However, with any saya with deep sori, there's more looseness than a Japanese style saya with a relatively straight blade, there's no way around it. Also with any blade there's loads of test fitting, which is why it's better to make the saya first, then polish it!
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Post by mrstabby on Mar 6, 2024 20:20:47 GMT
I've never accommodated a dao, but for a katana you make an outline of the blade. Under normal circumstances you make it larger on the blade side to accommodate movement. If you have a deep sori, or for a very curved dao like a naginata, the idea is to keep the spine profile the same, but leave a lot more room of wood on the edge side, then after you've finished carving the basic form, test running the blade in along the spine with it in half, marking where the maximum amplitude is, then carving that out on the blade side. With really deep sori, it's necessary to angle the handle toward the spine side of the saya, then at a certain point straighten it. If you make this bend too narrow, it's going to be hard to insert it, but if the bend is too loose, the saya will be loose on the blade. However, with any saya with deep sori, there's more looseness than a Japanese style saya with a relatively straight blade, there's no way around it. Also with any blade there's loads of test fitting, which is why it's better to make the saya first, then polish it! Keeping the spine profile and widening the scabbard on the edge side sounds right looking inside my Daos scabbard, thanks. It somewhat happened by accident to my first test on a machete. |
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Post by pullrich on Mar 20, 2024 13:50:46 GMT
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Post by mrstabby on Apr 12, 2024 7:04:41 GMT
Veneer method:
This is my favoured method as I find it a lot easier and better. ... I tried the veneer method several times now, and there are some issues I had before I got any passable result: - Peter Johnsson mentions he uses 0.4 - 0.8 mm model airplane birch plywood. I bought 0.8 mm plywood, but I find it very strong and hard to bend - but this was with quite thick XV and XVIII blades. Maybe Peter Johnsson uses stronger clamps than I do, but I found that with this veneer I need an extra step if I'm making a scabbard for a blade that isn't very thin - I soak the cut plywood sheets in hot water for about an hour, pour very hot water over them just before forming, and then I form them over the blade without glue. I label the sheets so I know their sequence (1, 2, 3 top and bottom) and press them over the blade (which is covered with Rennaisance wax and thin cling film) - I put closed cell foam strips over the veneer, use wooden boards, and then use the strong bar clamps, and leave the setup for a day. It's quite fiddly to center everything, I check thoroughly before I tighten the clamps! - I then proceed and glue the three veneer sheets on one and three on other side together with some old school wood glue that doesn't dry too quickly, newer Titebonds set way too quickly to spread it over at least 4 surfaces thoroughly. I then clamp the glued slats over the cling film protected blade again and leave for a day. The next day I glue the thin spacer, and I just use the contact glue - I find any wood glue quite corrosive to steel and hard to apply so that it isn't squeezed inwards when clamping the slats. It's fiddly, but it beats routing and chiseling for me, and it really produces thin, light, resilient and strong scabbard core, especially after you glue a layer of thin linen and layer of leather over it. I talked to a woodworker yesterday, he said they used wet wood to make "bendy" objects (if you know what I mean, they were a trend for a while) and an hour is't long enough soaking according to him. They left the sheets in water at least over night, took it out in the morning and let it dry off a bit. He said the wood became very soft and bendable after that, softer than fresh wood. He said they needed to let the thicker sheets sit so long, they had to keep an eye out for mold. After drying a bit, they bent it to shape an glued multiple layers for any specific object they wanted, because the glue will help keep the wood in the form until it has reached humidity equilibrium again, which could take some time with such a complete soak.
Just thought I'd add this. I'll definately try sometime. I don't think it needs multiple days, but for the 8mm a few hours for sure. On the 4mm you could likely get away with an hour if you glued 2 together right away.
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Post by bwaze on Apr 12, 2024 9:53:40 GMT
I was using 0,8 mm (not 8 mm) three ply aircraft model birch plywood, three layers of it. I guess everything about it varies a lot - bending strength, how waterproof the plywood and glue is, how the increased heat affects it... And of course how much do you have to form it.
I can imagine I could just glue it dry over thin lenticular X - XIII blades, but more thrust oriented swords, especially if they have "reinforced tip" and are relatively thick but narrow near the tip require shaping that is difficult to make with plywood that doesn't want to bend to small radius. And some people really make wide scabbards, even for blades that narrow down dramatically (XV etc.), and that also doesn't require that much bending.
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Post by mrstabby on Apr 12, 2024 11:13:15 GMT
I was using 0,8 mm (not 8 mm) three ply aircraft model birch plywood, three layers of it. I guess everything about it varies a lot - bending strength, how waterproof the plywood and glue is, how the increased heat affects it... And of course how much do you have to form it. I can imagine I could just glue it dry over thin lenticular X - XIII blades, but more thrust oriented swords, especially if they have "reinforced tip" and are relatively thick but narrow near the tip require shaping that is difficult to make with plywood that doesn't want to bend to small radius. And some people really make wide scabbards, even for blades that narrow down dramatically (XV etc.), and that also doesn't require that much bending. Ah. Sorry. They also used popplar, which itself is softer, birch being denser would need more time at the same thickness. The woodworker specifically said that for the best result they put the glue in while forming, that way the glue adds some form stability. Of course you could have gotten some weather proof plywood (I have looked specifically for it and I have seen most of the airplane stuff is weather proof, the stuff from the hardwarestore not so much), the glue won't soften and it might be impregnated to be water resistantas well, so water likely doesn't work well to soften it. If the glue alone is waterproof and does not soften at all, it will try to pull the wood back to the position it was originally glued in. EDIT: the glue on most 0,8mm plywood I have seen on model plane sites is even boiling water proof. |
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Post by fastfash779 on Apr 26, 2024 3:00:06 GMT
Can anyone recommend a website to order the appropriate plywood for the veneer scabbard method?
Located in US
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Post by pullrich on Apr 29, 2024 12:56:45 GMT
Can anyone recommend a website to order the appropriate plywood for the veneer scabbard method? Located in US Do you have a Rockler store near you? I bought a pack of veneer slats off the shelf. Didnt see the product at their online store |
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Post by fastfash779 on Apr 29, 2024 15:43:10 GMT
Can anyone recommend a website to order the appropriate plywood for the veneer scabbard method? Located in US Do you have a Rockler store near you? I bought a pack of veneer slats off the shelf. Didnt see the product at their online store I actually do. I didn’t know this place existed. Thank you! I’ll check them out |
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