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Post by metinemre on Feb 29, 2024 7:02:30 GMT
In respect to every professional scabbard maker,
I decided to try and make one to see if I have any skills at all as a fun project. I`m not gonna lie I have a very talented father in law that is very experienced in wood working, painting, kitchen cabinet making, fixing cars (retired from GM), flooring etc you name it, man can build a small house from scratch. Unfortunately they live in SC, fortunately they are visiting us in 2 weeks and will stay a while and he hates to stay idle lol. Hopefully with his help it won`t be a failure.
Those who are experienced and succeeded with DIY scabbard, I appreciate if you can please tell me what else should I purchase and have them ready.
My main goal is to be able to make the felt lined wood cores myself so I can ship them to professional makers so they can customize the leather work and art for me. This will save a ton from shipping the sword back and forth with insurance and also lower the cost of commission hopefully.
So far I purchased the following. 1/4 inch thick 4inch wide 4 feet long poplar hobby boards
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Post by erichofprovence on Feb 29, 2024 11:54:21 GMT
Hello, First of all, welcome to the niche world of scabbard making! First of all, I need to congratulate you with taking the first steps. There are many ways to make your own scabbards, and I started the same way, with wooden planks. There is a number of methods and I'll just quickly outline them here and then you can see what suits you best (conscious you already bought wood so you might want to try it this way, but having alternatives is always good). Wooden planks method:
To be honest, you have listed most of the required tools. The only thing I would suggest is getting a different type of felt. Those square sheets are okay but require a lot of cutting and fitting. There is always a risk of there being a tiny gap between two pieces of felt along the middle of the core and if one of the edges lifts just a little, your sword may get caught in it, ruining the lining. I have found that getting felt tape works wonders. It is the type that is usually used to remove squeaking in cars. The one I buy is wide enough to cover the width of most blades and I just apply it in the length of the inner core without any gaps. It was a huge game changer for me: linkIf you are quite handy with a chisel, this method is pretty good. My gripes with it is that I am not good with a chisel and poplar is difficult to get in the UK. So it tends to result in a loose fitting blade. Also I find that scabbards made like this tend to be a bit "Hollywood bulky", unless to put in a lot of elbow grease and stack dust like a madman. Should you decide to got for this method, I'd strongly recommend you watch these videos from Matt's Great Hall: Veneer method:
This is my favoured method as I find it a lot easier and better. It comes from Peter Johnsson, who explains it a lot better than me here ( link and link). Basically, you would need to get thin (0.8mm) plywood sheets (I use birch) that are commonly used for model airplane construction. I get mine in an online hobby store. The key is to find a supplier that makes sheets that are long enough (mine are 1200mm). Peter explains it really well but the bottom line is that sheets of plywood are cut to size and layers are glued onto each other on each side of the blade and then everything is clamped together until the glue cures so that you are left with two sides of the scabbard that are perfectly fitted to your blade. Then you add thin spacers on the sides to make for a better fit and glue both sides together. You can then wrap the core in linen to make it stronger, but that's not 100% necessary. Here is a schematic that Peter made that explains the process really well. The only thing Id' add is that you don't necessarily need 3 sheets on each side. I found that 2 sheets are enough. The advantages of this method is that barely any tools are required (utility knife to cut the sheets to size, wood glue, clamps (a lot of them), a file and sandpaper for the finish) and the result is a lot thiner and lighter. I can't recommend this build enough, it really changed the way I do things. Also it is a lot faster to make a core. To make a core for a longsword I pretty much need only three days and that's just because I let to glue dry for 20 hours in between steps. But in terms of actual working time, I would take me about 5 hours at most. One last piece of advice that is valid for both methods: be very careful with glue. Make sure it doesn't come into contact with the blade because it will oxidise it. I now use hide glue to assemble both sides of the core and use a little as possible, making sure it doesn't get squeezed into the core. Same goes for the felt lining. That's why I use the tape. It is a lot more adhesive than the sheets and doesn't require any touch ups with glue. I hope this help. Should you ever decide to try your hand at the leather work, I would say that the abovementioned resources are a good place to start. Leatherwork may sound a bit daunting, but I personally didn't find it as hard after the first two attempts. And I find it very fun.
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Post by larason2 on Feb 29, 2024 14:20:27 GMT
I come at it from traditional Japanese saya making. It doesn't sound like you have a lot of experience with the chisel, you'll find you'll be disappointed with your carving until you get good at it. More important than what chisel you have is how they are sharpened. Except for very fine chisels, I get thrift store ones and regrind them to suit my purposes. I find unless they have a convex profile like traditional Japanese chisels, they don't suit me well for carving. If you're just getting them for sayas, it makes more sense to buy cranked neck chisels of some flavour. They won't save you time, but they will get better, more consistent results on the flat parts. If I were you, I'd follow the above advice of hide glue and using veneer. Hide glue has some getting used to, but it's a very versatile glue for traditional materials. Veneer is easy to work with, you don't need hundreds of hours of carving skills. I have the hundreds of hours of carving skills and all the equipment, but if I was going to make a western style scabbard, I'd still use the veneer! Your time is worth something! Carving produces good results, but it's never a time saver. As for the other materials you're on the right track. I use poplar and it's a great wood for sayas. I glue them with rice glue, which is also easy to use and fully reversible when you get used to it, but you have to be able to carve, and it's really helpful to have a jointer so you don't have to flatten by hand. You can send them all to be flattened on your father in law's jointer! Flattening by hand is a difficult skill to acquire. Or save the trouble and get veneer. Save yourself some trouble and buy a good quality Stanley hand plane or one of the Japanese wood/kanna style ones. I bought a plane like the one you want to buy and it's useless, even if you resharpen the blade by hand. Or again save the trouble and get veneer. You see why it's so desirable! Clamps don't matter, get cheap ones. I have a dremel but I never use it for sayas, it's hard to control for fine work.
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Post by bwaze on Feb 29, 2024 15:34:22 GMT
Veneer method:
This is my favoured method as I find it a lot easier and better. ... I tried the veneer method several times now, and there are some issues I had before I got any passable result: - Peter Johnsson mentions he uses 0.4 - 0.8 mm model airplane birch plywood. I bought 0.8 mm plywood, but I find it very strong and hard to bend - but this was with quite thick XV and XVIII blades. Maybe Peter Johnsson uses stronger clamps than I do, but I found that with this veneer I need an extra step if I'm making a scabbard for a blade that isn't very thin - I soak the cut plywood sheets in hot water for about an hour, pour very hot water over them just before forming, and then I form them over the blade without glue. I label the sheets so I know their sequence (1, 2, 3 top and bottom) and press them over the blade (which is covered with Rennaisance wax and thin cling film) - I put closed cell foam strips over the veneer, use wooden boards, and then use the strong bar clamps, and leave the setup for a day. It's quite fiddly to center everything, I check thoroughly before I tighten the clamps! - I then proceed and glue the three veneer sheets on one and three on other side together with some old school wood glue that doesn't dry too quickly, newer Titebonds set way too quickly to spread it over at least 4 surfaces thoroughly. I then clamp the glued slats over the cling film protected blade again and leave for a day. The next day I glue the thin spacer, and I just use the contact glue - I find any wood glue quite corrosive to steel and hard to apply so that it isn't squeezed inwards when clamping the slats. It's fiddly, but it beats routing and chiseling for me, and it really produces thin, light, resilient and strong scabbard core, especially after you glue a layer of thin linen and layer of leather over it.
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Post by mrstabby on Feb 29, 2024 16:49:43 GMT
Normal chisels aren't that well suited for this stuff, I found something like this works well. www.amazon.com/TIMESETL-Whetstone-Beginners-Woodworking-Sculpting/dp/B077NYZBS4Also the chisels should be literally razor sharp before you do anything and relatively highly polished, else you do more ripping than cutting. With plywood the 0,4mm is a lot easier to work with than the 0,8mm, it will literally bend by itself. Also if you buy thin plywood you have to put another thicker board to it to brace it, the 0,4mm will bend under its own weight and deform within weeks.
EDIT: The wood glues are all pretty agressive, contact glue is a good idea, I also have seen super glue used for stuff like this, but I am not a fan of it on wood. I think any glue will work here, like Pattex classic or extreme repair.
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Post by metinemre on Mar 1, 2024 3:47:44 GMT
Thank you for the comments and suggestions, since it sounds a lot easier I will try the veneer method. I ordered the 0.8mm birch plywood sheets from the hobby store. I also bought the felt pads you suggested. Fingers crossed. I will try the veneer method by myself this Sunday and Monday and see if we can carve one with my father in law when he is here.
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Post by erichofprovence on Mar 1, 2024 14:06:43 GMT
Veneer method:
This is my favoured method as I find it a lot easier and better. ... I tried the veneer method several times now, and there are some issues I had before I got any passable result: - Peter Johnsson mentions he uses 0.4 - 0.8 mm model airplane birch plywood. I bought 0.8 mm plywood, but I find it very strong and hard to bend - but this was with quite thick XV and XVIII blades. Maybe Peter Johnsson uses stronger clamps than I do, but I found that with this veneer I need an extra step if I'm making a scabbard for a blade that isn't very thin - I soak the cut plywood sheets in hot water for about an hour, pour very hot water over them just before forming, and then I form them over the blade without glue. I label the sheets so I know their sequence (1, 2, 3 top and bottom) and press them over the blade (which is covered with Rennaisance wax and thin cling film) - I put closed cell foam strips over the veneer, use wooden boards, and then use the strong bar clamps, and leave the setup for a day. It's quite fiddly to center everything, I check thoroughly before I tighten the clamps! That's really interesting. I never have any issues getting the sheets to bend over the blade, and I have used it on one with a fairly thick cross section. Maybe some types of plywood are more flexible? I can't get thiner that 0.8mm in the store I use but I am tempted to look elsewhere now. What I also do sometimes when the clamps struggle a bit (mostly because I ran out of clamps on the longer blade), is to wrap the core tightly in thread (not so tight that it deforms to shape of the core, but enough to press the edges together).
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Post by erichofprovence on Mar 1, 2024 14:07:47 GMT
Thank you for the comments and suggestions, since it sounds a lot easier I will try the veneer method. I ordered the 0.8mm birch plywood sheets from the hobby store. I also bought the felt pads you suggested. Fingers crossed. I will try the veneer method by myself this Sunday and Monday and see if we can carve one with my father in law when he is here. Good luck and do share the results!
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Post by mrstabby on Mar 1, 2024 15:20:13 GMT
I tried the veneer method several times now, and there are some issues I had before I got any passable result: - Peter Johnsson mentions he uses 0.4 - 0.8 mm model airplane birch plywood. I bought 0.8 mm plywood, but I find it very strong and hard to bend - but this was with quite thick XV and XVIII blades. Maybe Peter Johnsson uses stronger clamps than I do, but I found that with this veneer I need an extra step if I'm making a scabbard for a blade that isn't very thin - I soak the cut plywood sheets in hot water for about an hour, pour very hot water over them just before forming, and then I form them over the blade without glue. I label the sheets so I know their sequence (1, 2, 3 top and bottom) and press them over the blade (which is covered with Rennaisance wax and thin cling film) - I put closed cell foam strips over the veneer, use wooden boards, and then use the strong bar clamps, and leave the setup for a day. It's quite fiddly to center everything, I check thoroughly before I tighten the clamps! That's really interesting. I never have any issues getting the sheets to bend over the blade, and I have used it on one with a fairly thick cross section. Maybe some types of plywood are more flexible? I can't get thiner that 0.8mm in the store I use but I am tempted to look elsewhere now. What I also do sometimes when the clamps struggle a bit (mostly because I ran out of clamps on the longer blade), is to wrap the core tightly in thread (not so tight that it deforms to shape of the core, but enough to press the edges together). Yeah, even the same wood can be harder or softer depending on location and time of harvest.
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Post by metinemre on Mar 2, 2024 4:31:58 GMT
erichofprovenceCan you please suggest me a linen fabric that I can buy from amazon.com please? I~m confused with too many choices. Also do you seal the exterior of the wood with a stain 1st then glue the linen tightly like if it was leather covering the surface? One layer or more layers wrapping it around the scabbard? Thanks
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Greg E
Member
little bit of this... and a whole lot of that
Posts: 1,354
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Post by Greg E on Mar 2, 2024 15:04:34 GMT
erichofprovence Can you please suggest me a linen fabric that I can buy from amazon.com please? I~m confused with too many choices. Also do you seal the exterior of the wood with a stain 1st then glue the linen tightly like if it was leather covering the surface? One layer or more layers wrapping it around the scabbard? Thanks I bought some linen off of Etsy for my scabbards. I am in the US and bought from here...
I searched for Baltic linen and went from there.
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Post by erichofprovence on Mar 2, 2024 21:06:04 GMT
erichofprovence Can you please suggest me a linen fabric that I can buy from amazon.com please? I~m confused with too many choices. Also do you seal the exterior of the wood with a stain 1st then glue the linen tightly like if it was leather covering the surface? One layer or more layers wrapping it around the scabbard? Thanks I actually buy the linen fabric from a local shop, but the option given below looks good. At least where I live there is a number of sewing shops that sell fabric by the meter. Regarding the wrapping, no I don't stain the wood. I just glue the linen onto the core with hide glue. Once it dries it will create a hard shell around the core, thus reinforcing it. One layer is more than enough. I wrap the core with the seem long the length (like you would with the leather) and avoid overlap. You can also try to wrap it like you would a mummy, but I find it difficult to avoid overlap in this way).
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Post by erichofprovence on Mar 2, 2024 21:09:21 GMT
This is broadly how the wrap is done:
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Post by metinemre on Mar 3, 2024 2:36:21 GMT
@ erichofprovence @ Greg E
Thank you guys. I`m super excited.
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Greg E
Member
little bit of this... and a whole lot of that
Posts: 1,354
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Post by Greg E on Mar 3, 2024 2:51:54 GMT
@ erichofprovence @ Greg E Thank you guys. I`m super excited. Good luck and have fun! I will be posting another one soon, just finishing up tomorrow maybe. A little bit sick.
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Greg E
Member
little bit of this... and a whole lot of that
Posts: 1,354
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Post by Greg E on Mar 3, 2024 18:49:05 GMT
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Post by metinemre on Mar 3, 2024 21:40:04 GMT
Greg EVery nice! What thickness and weight veg tan leather are you using? I ordered some leather stamps and rollers on etsy today so I can do some easy decorations. erichofprovence Do I have/need to soak the plywood before clamping? Do you clamp all layers at the same time or or one by one to take the shape of the blade? Cheers
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Post by erichofprovence on Mar 3, 2024 22:26:32 GMT
Greg E Very nice! What thickness and weight veg tan leather are you using? I ordered some leather stamps and rollers on etsy today so I can do some easy decorations. erichofprovence Do I have/need to soak the plywood before clamping? Do you clamp all layers at the same time or or one by one to take the shape of the blade? Cheers I personally do not soak the plywood. Apparently, some plywood are too rigid and require soaking but I have never needed to do this. What I do is: I cut 4/6 layers to shape (depending on whether I want a thinner or a sturdier scabbard - I find 2 layers on each side is enough). I then number the layers from 1 to 2 (or 3) on each side with 1 being the interior layer. I apply the felt tape (cut to the shape of the blade) on the layers 1. Then I apply wood glue (thin layer) on layer 1 glue layer 2 on it (and them layer 3 on layer 2 if you use three layers). Then while the glue is still fresh, you clamp both sides around the blade, making sure that the blade is centred. This can be tricky to master. For me the trick is to get the point of the blade centred and fixed with the clamps and then clamp the part closest to the crossguard. Then I clamp the rest (clamps to be squeezing the edges of the scabbard). It requires a lot of clamps (ideally over the whole length of the scabbard)and can be frustrating when the clamps jump off... If you run out of clamps, you can space them strategically and in the gaps use some cord to pinch the edges in place. Basically the shape is creates by the pressure of the clamps and the glue drying with the wood is the right shape. I'll have a look if I can find some WIP photos on my phone.
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Post by erichofprovence on Mar 3, 2024 22:38:17 GMT
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Post by metinemre on Mar 3, 2024 22:47:42 GMT
Greg E Very nice! What thickness and weight veg tan leather are you using? I ordered some leather stamps and rollers on etsy today so I can do some easy decorations. erichofprovence Do I have/need to soak the plywood before clamping? Do you clamp all layers at the same time or or one by one to take the shape of the blade? Cheers I personally do not soak the plywood. Apparently, some plywood are too rigid and require soaking but I have never needed to do this. What I do is: I cut 4/6 layers to shape (depending on whether I want a thinner or a sturdier scabbard - I find 2 layers on each side is enough). I then number the layers from 1 to 2 (or 3) on each side with 1 being the interior layer. I apply the felt tape (cut to the shape of the blade) on the layers 1. Then I apply wood glue (thin layer) on layer 1 glue layer 2 on it (and them layer 3 on layer 2 if you use three layers). Then while the glue is still fresh, you clamp both sides around the blade, making sure that the blade is centred. This can be tricky to master. For me the trick is to get the point of the blade centred and fixed with the clamps and then clamp the part closest to the crossguard. Then I clamp the rest (clamps to be squeezing the edges of the scabbard). It requires a lot of clamps (ideally over the whole length of the scabbard)and can be frustrating when the clamps jump off... If you run out of clamps, you can space them strategically and in the gaps use some cord to pinch the edges in place. Basically the shape is creates by the pressure of the clamps and the glue drying with the wood is the right shape. I'll have a look if I can find some WIP photos on my phone. Thank you. I wonder if using a painters tape at the edges would help to align and help stabilize the clamps.
Also maybe using a painters tape again; or (some double sided tape) taping the blade to the bottom layer and stabilize the alignment while shaping.
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