|
Post by yelman on Feb 7, 2024 23:38:31 GMT
knives and daggers are relatively/actually more expensive than swords given the fact that they contain far less material and presumably lower labor and shipping costs?
|
|
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 8, 2024 1:35:42 GMT
Less idiots among the swordsmen.
|
|
|
Post by hawthorn on Feb 9, 2024 2:45:46 GMT
Production knives/daggers? It's only meme brands people imagine to be "high end" charging the real high prices from what I've seen. Companies peddling to the everyman like, say, cold steel, don't want more for their expensive knives than for an average priced sword, and there are tons of knife/dagger models out there that are sub-$100, too, from different brands.
And let's be honest with ourselves. There are not fewer idiots among sword lovers than knife people.
|
|
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 9, 2024 3:30:06 GMT
Sometimes I prove myself wrong!
|
|
|
Post by bwaze on Feb 9, 2024 8:44:39 GMT
What market are we talking about? Historical reproductions?
I'd say you can't look at the "relative cost" by just measuring how many dollars per inch the sword costs, and then extrapolate that for knives, daggers. Material cost is actually a very small portion of the finished product cost, regardless of how the makers complain of rising cost of steel. Shipping is usually separate cost, and although swords are oversized packages, once you add the box and packaging there is less weight difference between swords and knives, daggers.
I'm also not so sure about much lower labor costs. Hilt area in many daggers can be even more complex and detailed compared to swords. Blade shapes can also be quite compex, and since you view it up close there's often more attention to fit and finish. And there are no less steps in knife production. And they often have scabbard included in certain price range where swords do not.
Of course there is also an influence (especially in USA) from a large, decades old functional knife market which kind of fetishised well made small production items. We dont have anything like that in swords.
|
|
|
Post by curiomansion on Feb 9, 2024 9:08:32 GMT
My hypothesis is that this is just an example of a market that gets "stuck" in a certain price range. The knives and "daggers" in the high end "tactical" space are shockingly expensive for what you get. The main market got used to paying very high prices a few years ago and just didn't demand cheaper. IYKYK.
|
|
|
Post by randomnobody on Feb 9, 2024 11:27:11 GMT
If it costs more that means it's better, right?
Every hobby falls prey to the same idea. We know it's not true, but we choose to believe.
|
|
mrstabby
Member
Posts: 1,181
Member is Online
|
Post by mrstabby on Feb 9, 2024 17:03:20 GMT
Look at the Hanwei/Tinker swords, the blade alone costs about half of the finished product. My guess is, a lot actually goes to the hilt construction alone. It's pretty much the same for daggers as it is for swords.
In modern knives you either pay more for premium steel, more complex heat treatment, the brand name of the manufacturer or any combination of factors. EDIT: Pure steel price might not be that much more for stainless steels, but you need a lot more precise machinery, like ovens and also better grinding equipment.
|
|
|
Post by izzy on Mar 9, 2024 23:08:16 GMT
Marketing. Supply and Demand. Bigger market for Knives and things that fit neatly into a drawer as collectables. Country of Origin. USA / Europe, Japan Vs. China/ India, etc. Expensive steels used on some knives, often higher HRC heat treating in ovens used Vs. Carbon Steels often with interrupted quench. There are exceptions to these factors, just a rough summery. Not counting inflation, All* of my knives cost less than my swords, one has to shop smart. It also helped to shop for knives in the later part of 1990's to the the early 2000's when the mass production of quality knives was wider. One can still get Sandvik knives at a reasonable price... I picked up some Mora Kitchen blades on sale for 46 USD each just a few years ago....if you buy a Japanese kitchen knife in Sandvik you will pay hundreds for the same thin bladed Kitchen knife @ 59 HRC that will get used and abused....some makers are just a better deal, seek them out.
(* The one that came closest to "sword price" being my purchase of a "Swamp Rat, Battle Rat" bought in 2002, and a recent purchase of a second Pompeii Gen 2 / sword on holiday + closeout sale...still the sword cost me about 1 U.S.D. more, not counting inflation or shipping. [ 148.95 in 2002 for the S.W. in 2002 vs. 149.99 for the Gen 2 L.A. Sword late 2023]. I found the Swamp Rat was too thick for my tastes.)
|
|
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Mar 9, 2024 23:27:53 GMT
Why do I not buy expensive knives as a swordsman? I give a semprini about super steels, 1050 is good enough for me (for knives, 1045 for swords) No, it doesn't rust immediately. Yes, it doesn't held the edge like a 65 HRC supersteel blade. But it's easier to sharpen it again. Supercool knife designs are less cool if you own a real sword. (Even if it's a 1045 kat)
|
|
|
Post by paulmuaddib on Mar 10, 2024 4:23:53 GMT
Why do I not buy expensive knives as a swordsman? I give a semprini about super steels, 1050 is good enough for me (for knives, 1045 for swords) No, it doesn't rust immediately. Yes, it doesn't held the edge like a 65 HRC supersteel blade. But it's easier to sharpen it again. Supercool knife designs are less cool if you own a real sword. (Even if it's a 1045 kat) Preach brother!
|
|
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Mar 10, 2024 5:35:34 GMT
... and this is not, what the Lisan al Gaib would have said!
|
|
|
Post by izzy on Mar 10, 2024 6:45:53 GMT
Why do I not buy expensive knives as a swordsman? I give a semprini about super steels, 1050 is good enough for me (for knives, 1045 for swords) No, it doesn't rust immediately. Yes, it doesn't held the edge like a 65 HRC supersteel blade. But it's easier to sharpen it again. Supercool knife designs are less cool if you own a real sword. (Even if it's a 1045 kat) There is a reason traditional Japanese blades were 59-60 HRC on the edge only, it held up better with accidents, battle damage, and test cutting....of course only when properly made, and not all of them were either....some smiths were better than others, and everyone has an "off" day, smiths signed what their workers made under "supervision", and then there is "Gimei".
I know your just trying to make a point, but no one should even think of 65 HRC in a sword, and it's pretty fragile for the edge in most knife steels as well. All of my swords are in the .6% C range, give or take...
The most "common" steel that is pushed up to 65 HRC is the Hitachi "Blue 2" and "Blue Super" steel used in kitchen knives...the best price I can find for Blue # 2 is a about 100 USD online (Kanetsune @61 HRC, not inc. shipping)... I have always thought of the Hitachi Blue steels as containing too much Carbon, but this has me re-thinking what I thought I knew ( at least in terms of professional kitchen use. e.g. used with care):
Of the current crop of less expensive, but still very good steels for swords there is GB 60Si2MnA, 9260, and 5160...but just like 1050 /1060 they need a good heat treat to bring out the best in the steel.
It's rare to bring a sword out into the field these days, so knives, and shorter woods tools get priority in the market....it's nice to have less maintenance in the kitchen/ field / woods, but one does not have to go far and wide to get a stainless Mora "Companion" that is give or take 17 to 20 USD / EURO, that in theory should be at least 56 HRC...and a decent machete can be even less.
I am also quite happy with my older Mora "HD" Carbon Companion in UHB-20C ( a "cleaner" version of 1095) used well but not totally abused, it rusts easy, but cleans up nice, holds a good edge. It's not uncommon to lose stuff in the wilderness or the city, if one loses a small Mora it's not something one will regret for life. I used to tie Neon flagging tape to my machetes for the same reason, too easy to loose them in deep brush....
|
|
mrstabby
Member
Posts: 1,181
Member is Online
|
Post by mrstabby on Mar 10, 2024 10:40:38 GMT
There is definately a differecne, and it isn't small. A 1055 knife will lose it's edge a lot faster than something like x45CrMoV15/4116, which itself is cheap. Moras carbon steel is pretty good in edge retention and better than their stainless, but double the price and you can already get D2, 154CM and others, which shadow 1095 in everything but toughness. Of course, the main point of the Mora is its replacability - BTW Hultafors is a lot cheaper - like 8€/Knife - if you really need something to throw away, they are SK5 and pretty comparable to the carbon mora, a bit shorter and the grip isn't that good for me, but very cheap.
I'd say it depends a lot on what you do, do you cut a lot - then it's absolutely worth it to go for something higher up. Do you need something that does not break - spring steel is your best bet, like 5160 is easy to get. I would never buy a 0.5 carbon steel blade for something short again, if you compare it side-by-side it's just worse for me - cutting meat, cardboard, whittling etc. Especially on acidic food I always taste the metal with plain carbon steels, and I hate it.
|
|
|
Post by izzy on Mar 10, 2024 12:24:21 GMT
There is definately a differecne, and it isn't small. A 1055 knife will lose it's edge a lot faster than something like x45CrMoV15/4116, which itself is cheap. Moras carbon steel is pretty good in edge retention and better than their stainless, but double the price and you can already get D2, 154CM and others, which shadow 1095 in everything but toughness. Of course, the main point of the Mora is its replacability - BTW Hultafors is a lot cheaper - like 8€/Knife - if you really need something to throw away, they are SK5 and pretty comparable to the carbon mora, a bit shorter and the grip isn't that good for me, but very cheap. I'd say it depends a lot on what you do, do you cut a lot - then it's absolutely worth it to go for something higher up. Do you need something that does not break - spring steel is your best bet, like 5160 is easy to get. I would never buy a 0.5 carbon steel blade for something short again, if you compare it side-by-side it's just worse for me - cutting meat, cardboard, whittling etc. Especially on acidic food I always taste the metal with plain carbon steels, and I hate it. +1 for mentioning Hultafors in SK-5, I think SK-5(1) is such an under rated steel for a knife. However, Hultafors fixed blades just are not in big supply in North America ( at this time)...Amazon has the Craftsman's HVK for 15 bucks a piece! ( och, that is a big mark up from Hultafors own website 7.89 Euro, no sheath included, only EU shipping). Certainly a cheap option for EU Dwellers, not quite as reasonable in the USA ( Hultafors .US does not even have them listed on the website ). A Neon handle is always good in the brush so long as one is not worried about blending in. It think that Mora got most of the chat in the bushcraft community...supply / demand issue.
About 6 years ago bought an Icel 8" chef's knife in X50CrMoV15 ( DIN 1.4116 Thyssen-Krupp's steel, made in their China plant AFAIK, then ground out and hardened in Portugal)...they now go for 45 USD or so, it's OK steel, thicker spine than the Frosts/ Mora chef knives, just fine for the kitchen...edge holding is not quite as good as the Sandvik Frost/ Mora Chef Knife..I suppose X45CrMoV15 ( DIN 1.7440) would be about the same.
Point is there is plenty of good knives for various Uses ( Outdoor/ survival, Kitchen, Military, SD) that don't cost an arm and a leg.
And then there are those that do...( OK not sure if this qualifies as a Knife, but it's undersized my personal cubit rule, so to me it's just a big knife...YMMV )
Swamp Rat Free Rein, SR-3V, Stonewashed Finish 61-63 HRC
16" blade. Only 758.95 U.S.D. ( plus shipping /and possibly custom duties for many of us)
|
|
mrstabby
Member
Posts: 1,181
Member is Online
|
Post by mrstabby on Mar 10, 2024 15:01:08 GMT
There is definately a differecne, and it isn't small. A 1055 knife will lose it's edge a lot faster than something like x45CrMoV15/4116, which itself is cheap. Moras carbon steel is pretty good in edge retention and better than their stainless, but double the price and you can already get D2, 154CM and others, which shadow 1095 in everything but toughness. Of course, the main point of the Mora is its replacability - BTW Hultafors is a lot cheaper - like 8€/Knife - if you really need something to throw away, they are SK5 and pretty comparable to the carbon mora, a bit shorter and the grip isn't that good for me, but very cheap. I'd say it depends a lot on what you do, do you cut a lot - then it's absolutely worth it to go for something higher up. Do you need something that does not break - spring steel is your best bet, like 5160 is easy to get. I would never buy a 0.5 carbon steel blade for something short again, if you compare it side-by-side it's just worse for me - cutting meat, cardboard, whittling etc. Especially on acidic food I always taste the metal with plain carbon steels, and I hate it. +1 for mentioning Hultafors in SK-5, I think SK-5(1) is such an under rated steel for a knife. However, Hultafors fixed blades just are not in big supply in North America ( at this time)...Amazon has the Craftsman's HVK for 15 bucks a piece! ( och, that is a big mark up from Hultafors own website 7.89 Euro, no sheath included, only EU shipping). Certainly a cheap option for EU Dwellers, not quite as reasonable in the USA ( Hultafors .US does not even have them listed on the website ). A Neon handle is always good in the brush so long as one is not worried about blending in. It think that Mora got most of the chat in the bushcraft community...supply / demand issue.
About 6 years ago bought an Icel 8" chef's knife in X50CrMoV15 ( DIN 1.4116 Thyssen-Krupp's steel, made in their China plant AFAIK, then ground out and hardened in Portugal)...they now go for 45 USD or so, it's OK steel, thicker spine than the Frosts/ Mora chef knives, just fine for the kitchen...edge holding is not quite as good as the Sandvik Frost/ Mora Chef Knife..I suppose X45CrMoV15 ( DIN 1.7440) would be about the same.
Point is there is plenty of good knives for various Uses ( Outdoor/ survival, Kitchen, Military, SD) that don't cost an arm and a leg.
And then there are those that do...( OK not sure if this qualifies as a Knife, but it's undersized my personal cubit rule, so to me it's just a big knife...YMMV )
Swamp Rat Free Rein, SR-3V, Stonewashed Finish 61-63 HRC
16" blade. Only 758.95 U.S.D. ( plus shipping /and possibly custom duties for many of us)
I see, I thought the Hultafors were available everywhere like the Moras, I think you get a better package with the Mora anyways, it just feels better using. I have a few SK5 knives, and I feel it's pretty good. I love the blade on the CS Recon Tanto, but the soft rubber grip isn't for me. Always feel like I am losing grip, but it's only shifting because it's so soft. Also have a few Fiskars things, an those just feel crappy. Especially hate the knife, like 2cm/1" of tang, so hard it's brittle like glass and cost same as the Mora. I feel price does not say much, you can always find better or worse for the same money. With Fiskars you pay a lot for the brand I feel. Hate their axes too, rather have a 10€ hardwarestore axe than their 50€ ones...Which I do.
I just bought a very cheap ARCOS knife, 16€ for a 25cm/10" butchers knife isn't bad. The steel is "Nitrum" which nobody knows what it actually is, it is said to be pretty similar to X45/X50CrMov15 and I can literally cut at least 10 times more meat before I feel it getting duller than 1055 (a CS Black Bear Bowie). Of course I have no idea how much abuse it can take and the edge angle is very shallow, so no bush machete of course, but it is a hacking knife for seperating bone so it should have some ability to withstand abuse.
Weird to me is 10-14cm knives are cheap, but then 14-20cm suddenly get twice as costly for a good quality knife.
|
|
|
Post by crazyjons on Mar 10, 2024 15:16:19 GMT
My hypothesis is that this is just an example of a market that gets "stuck" in a certain price range. The knives and "daggers" in the high end "tactical" space are shockingly expensive for what you get. The main market got used to paying very high prices a few years ago and just didn't demand cheaper. IYKYK. I suspect this is the case. Jon
|
|
|
Post by izzy on Mar 10, 2024 15:55:15 GMT
|
|
|
Post by eastman on Mar 10, 2024 16:41:05 GMT
my most expensive knives cost more than my cheapest swords, so prices can overlap a bit in the middle
the extremes are even farther apart
|
|
mrstabby
Member
Posts: 1,181
Member is Online
|
Post by mrstabby on Mar 10, 2024 17:20:03 GMT
On the CS Black Bear Bowie...I wonder what the Rockwell on that is...it's the same machete steel as other CS products from the RSA and that can vary a lot... Around 50HRC. All of my 1055s are besides the Kopis which is like 1HRC harder, admittedly stoft for a cutter and the 1075@55HRC does fare a lot better, the cheap stainless knife still outcuts it. The 1075 feels like it gets a keener edge, so there is that.
EDIT:I think I remember the maximum hardness for 1055 is at mid 50s anyways.
|
|