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Post by oblivion25 on Jan 10, 2024 4:41:39 GMT
So I want add some distal taper to this Ginunting to take some weight off of the blade, any tips or links to videos would be highly appreciated, thank you! The sword is made from 5160 by the way, thank you! Attachments:
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AndiTheBarvarian
Member
"Lord of the Memes"
Bavarianbarbarian - Semper Semprini
Posts: 10,346
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jan 10, 2024 5:32:21 GMT
It ain't easy to remove much meat on such a thick backspine.
Until now I filed down a diamond cross section "midrip" above the fuller end of two swords.
On another of my swords with a massive meaty foible I wasn't able to thin it out really, darn hard material.
I think you could try to make the false edge running longer down the blade and then trying to make the rest thinner.
It's easier to file down an angle than a massive flat hardened structure.
Better tools will help, belt grinder f.e., but be careful to not overheat.
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 10, 2024 8:37:21 GMT
Lots of work, especially whan you want it to look good. There is a setup for sword sharpening with sandpaper that could work to stabilise your angle. >>link<<Depending on hardness and wear resistance of the steel it could take a while to do it by hand. Belt sander is the best option for such a big job, but as Andi said, you have to take care, higher grit is especially dangerous for overheating the blade. Either way, it's not a quick fix.
Lengthening the back edge might be something to think about. Making the false edge longer will remove quite a bit of weight, 28g/1oz is easily possible within 12cm/5". Although you might not want that false edge. How heavy is the blade and how much you want to lighten it?
I have done some work on a machete, and it takes a lot of time to grind the flat (so much time in fact, that I never finished because the motivation left me, some day it will get finished...). I would not recommend setting a fix goal, like the tip is to be x thick and grind it down. I would remove a bit and test it out, not do all at once. Also use something to mark the thickness of the blade you want to remove, this way you can't forget how much you have already removed from either side. Like this, but do a better job than me 
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Post by oblivion25 on Jan 10, 2024 13:06:37 GMT
It ain't easy to remove much meat on such a thick backspine. Until now I filed down a diamond cross section "midrip" above the fuller end of two swords. On another of my swords with a massive meaty foible I wasn't able to thin it out really, darn hard material. I think you could try to make the false edge running longer down the blade and then trying to make the rest thinner. It's easier to file down an angle than a massive flat hardened structure. Better tools will help, belt grinder f.e., but be careful to not overheat. That sounds like a great idea, that’s probably what I’d do, I have a belt sander as well, what grit do you think would be best to start with? and thank you! |
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Post by oblivion25 on Jan 10, 2024 13:13:46 GMT
Lots of work, especially whan you want it to look good. There is a setup for sword sharpening with sandpaper that could work to stabilise your angle. >>link<<Depending on hardness and wear resistance of the steel it could take a while to do it by hand. Belt sander is the best option for such a big job, but as Andi said, you have to take care, higher grit is especially dangerous for overheating the blade. Either way, it's not a quick fix.
Lengthening the back edge might be something to think about. Making the false edge longer will remove quite a bit of weight, 28g/1oz is easily possible within 12cm/5". Although you might not want that false edge. How heavy is the blade and how much you want to lighten it?
I have done some work on a machete, and it takes a lot of time to grind the flat (so much time in fact, that I never finished because the motivation left me, some day it will get finished...). I would not recommend setting a fix goal, like the tip is to be x thick and grind it down. I would remove a bit and test it out, not do all at once. Also use something to mark the thickness of the blade you want to remove, this way you can't forget how much you have already removed from either side. Like this, but do a better job than me
Thank you so much for such a great explanation! Yeah I’ll extend the false edge and go from there, I have a belt sander and an angle guide so it should make it a bit easier. The sword currently ways 2lbs, my goal is to get it to 1.8lbs and go from there 👌🏾 I’ll keep you guys updated on how it goes, thank you for the help again! |
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 10, 2024 13:38:07 GMT
Lots of work, especially whan you want it to look good. There is a setup for sword sharpening with sandpaper that could work to stabilise your angle. >>link<<Depending on hardness and wear resistance of the steel it could take a while to do it by hand. Belt sander is the best option for such a big job, but as Andi said, you have to take care, higher grit is especially dangerous for overheating the blade. Either way, it's not a quick fix.
Lengthening the back edge might be something to think about. Making the false edge longer will remove quite a bit of weight, 28g/1oz is easily possible within 12cm/5". Although you might not want that false edge. How heavy is the blade and how much you want to lighten it?
I have done some work on a machete, and it takes a lot of time to grind the flat (so much time in fact, that I never finished because the motivation left me, some day it will get finished...). I would not recommend setting a fix goal, like the tip is to be x thick and grind it down. I would remove a bit and test it out, not do all at once. Also use something to mark the thickness of the blade you want to remove, this way you can't forget how much you have already removed from either side. Like this, but do a better job than me
Thank you so much for such a great explanation! Yeah I’ll extend the false edge and go from there, I have a belt sander and an angle guide so it should make it a bit easier. The sword currently ways 2lbs, my goal is to get it to 1.8lbs and go from there 👌🏾 I’ll keep you guys updated on how it goes, thank you for the help again! Since it's so thick, I would put a mark in the center so you can begin with a coarse belt and switch when you are close. You are less likely to overshoot the middle this way, you can lose a lot of width fast if that happens because you will have to remove a lot of material from the other side to get to the middle again. Better safe than sorry I suppose. |
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Post by larason2 on Jan 10, 2024 14:03:49 GMT
Personally, I would anneal the blade and reharden it later if you can. Hardened sword steel is not fun to work with, even if you have a grinder and a guide.
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Post by oblivion25 on Jan 10, 2024 16:33:31 GMT
Thank you so much for such a great explanation! Yeah I’ll extend the false edge and go from there, I have a belt sander and an angle guide so it should make it a bit easier. The sword currently ways 2lbs, my goal is to get it to 1.8lbs and go from there 👌🏾 I’ll keep you guys updated on how it goes, thank you for the help again! Since it's so thick, I would put a mark in the center so you can begin with a coarse belt and switch when you are close. You are less likely to overshoot the middle this way, you can lose a lot of width fast if that happens because you will have to remove a lot of material from the other side to get to the middle again. Better safe than sorry I suppose. Sounds good, thank you! |
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Post by oblivion25 on Jan 10, 2024 16:34:53 GMT
Personally, I would anneal the blade and reharden it later if you can. Hardened sword steel is not fun to work with, even if you have a grinder and a guide. Got you, I’ll try that out too 👌🏾 |
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Post by larason2 on Jan 10, 2024 19:46:48 GMT
That being said, heat treating a blade isn't easy! You have to get it up to critical temperature (past decalescence/recalescence, when it's bright orange) in a forge or a pit forge with charcoal, then quench in water or oil, then temper (looks like it will fit in an oven), say 300 degrees for 2 hours or something.
To anneal, you can just bring it up to orange heat with a blowtorch, then let it cool to room temperature slowly.
All that being said, 5160 is a pretty easy metal to heat treat, so if you have the wherewithal to do that, then you can do basically anything with a blade.
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 10, 2024 20:06:26 GMT
That being said, heat treating a blade isn't easy! You have to get it up to critical temperature (past decalescence/recalescence, when it's bright orange) in a forge or a pit forge with charcoal, then quench in water or oil, then temper (looks like it will fit in an oven), say 300 degrees for 2 hours or something. To anneal, you can just bring it up to orange heat with a blowtorch, then let it cool to room temperature slowly. All that being said, 5160 is a pretty easy metal to heat treat, so if you have the wherewithal to do that, then you can do basically anything with a blade. Indeed. You also have to regrind the whole blade after the whole cycle since it will get a layer of oxidation.
I don't know, just adding this for clarity: You can't anneal, lets say, just the tip and then harden it again, you'll have to do the whole blade and disassemble it first. Don't think that's actually a time or work saving measure here.
I'd say if the blade isn't extremely hard, you're better off just grinding cautiously. If you see yellow colour forming STOP IMMEDIATELY. If you see the steel turn blue, the heat treat is gone and you can cut that piece off since it won't keep sharp any longer.
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Post by larason2 on Jan 10, 2024 21:58:58 GMT
You may be right, it depends on if he gets any trouble with the grinding or the polishing! A white Aluminum oxide wheel may be helpful here, or at the very least frequent cooling in water. What I do with my nihonto blades that have been cut already and I want to refine the tip is I cut with my diamond cutoff wheel on my handheld circular saw, and I cut a tiny amount (like a mm), then cool in water, then cut again, etc. until I'm all the way through the heat treated part (the soft part I cut with a hack saw). This takes a long time, but it doesn't ruin the heat treat. Diamond cut off wheels are expensive though! I think the hardest part will be trying to make it look acceptable again after thinning it with a grinder if it's still hardened. You're in for a lot of polishing! Maybe some of those diamond polishing pads would help if it's still hardened. Those aren't cheap though!
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Post by oblivion25 on Jan 11, 2024 0:40:18 GMT
That being said, heat treating a blade isn't easy! You have to get it up to critical temperature (past decalescence/recalescence, when it's bright orange) in a forge or a pit forge with charcoal, then quench in water or oil, then temper (looks like it will fit in an oven), say 300 degrees for 2 hours or something. To anneal, you can just bring it up to orange heat with a blowtorch, then let it cool to room temperature slowly. All that being said, 5160 is a pretty easy metal to heat treat, so if you have the wherewithal to do that, then you can do basically anything with a blade. Indeed. You also have to regrind the whole blade after the whole cycle since it will get a layer of oxidation.
I don't know, just adding this for clarity: You can't anneal, lets say, just the tip and then harden it again, you'll have to do the whole blade and disassemble it first. Don't think that's actually a time or work saving measure here.
I'd say if the blade isn't extremely hard, you're better off just grinding cautiously. If you see yellow colour forming STOP IMMEDIATELY. If you see the steel turn blue, the heat treat is gone and you can cut that piece off since it won't keep sharp any longer.
Yeahhh I definitely do not want to regrind the whole blade so I’ll just stick to paying attention and frequently cooling the blade as you suggested, thank you! |
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Post by oblivion25 on Jan 11, 2024 0:41:32 GMT
You may be right, it depends on if he gets any trouble with the grinding or the polishing! A white Aluminum oxide wheel may be helpful here, or at the very least frequent cooling in water. What I do with my nihonto blades that have been cut already and I want to refine the tip is I cut with my diamond cutoff wheel on my handheld circular saw, and I cut a tiny amount (like a mm), then cool in water, then cut again, etc. until I'm all the way through the heat treated part (the soft part I cut with a hack saw). This takes a long time, but it doesn't ruin the heat treat. Diamond cut off wheels are expensive though! I think the hardest part will be trying to make it look acceptable again after thinning it with a grinder if it's still hardened. You're in for a lot of polishing! Maybe some of those diamond polishing pads would help if it's still hardened. Those aren't cheap though! Thank you for the advice and the product recommendations! I’m pretty confident in the grinding but not so much the polishing 😅 Any advice on that would be highly appreciated! |
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Post by larason2 on Jan 11, 2024 2:09:27 GMT
Personally I polish using Japanese polishing stones, but that's a whole subject in itself! Most knife makers seem to use sandpaper though. If you have a lot of rough parts, you may need to start at a fairly coarse grit. My usual starting grit for sandpaper is about 200. Personally I would use oil, but others use water or other solvents. After shaping at 200, you can go up the grits, say 400, 600, 1000, 1500, all with the same lubricant. If you don't know where to get these, a big box store that has auto polishing supplies should carry them all. After about 1500, you can try a polishing compound like maguire's et al, and a fair bit of elbow grease. Knife makers use a buffer machine, but these are quite dangerous.
Another strategy is to use the sandpaper as before, then use a migakibo (Japanese burnishing stick) to apply the burnished polish. Usually before doing this though, they use tsunoko (deer antler powder) to thoroughly degrease it, and ibota (powdered shellac) to lubricate the migakibo. The other technique also burnishes, but it leaves a different finish.
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 11, 2024 7:06:41 GMT
Another tip do the polishing in one direction only, like pushing from handle to tip. You get a nicer finish earlier that way.
If you use oil the sandpaper is a bit less agressive, if you use water the it should remove a lot more material and leave deeper scratches.
The blade does not look mirror polished though, my guess it's likely a satin, for that abrasive fleece like scotch brite are recommended around the forum, but I haven't tried this yet. Using sandpaper in one direction has worked for my swords to get a similar satin finish.
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Post by oblivion25 on Jan 14, 2024 23:41:05 GMT
Update: This was such a fail 🤦🏾♂️ the stacked leather handle shrunk and began to chip away and went bad from there.
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 15, 2024 8:54:20 GMT
Update: This was such a fail 🤦🏾♂️ the stacked leather handle shrunk and began to chip away and went to semprini from there. Sorry to hear that. What happened? Was it because the leather got wet? |
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Post by oblivion25 on Jan 16, 2024 18:29:48 GMT
Update: This was such a fail 🤦🏾♂️ the stacked leather handle shrunk and began to chip away and went to semprini from there. Sorry to hear that. What happened? Was it because the leather got wet? I believe so, and the temperature dropped hard so when I went to work on the blade the leather handle started to chip🤦🏾♂️ I’m more then likely going to try to find a black smith who can hopefully extend and clean up the false edge and make a new handle, but problem with that is I don’t know where to start looking for a blacksmith 😂 |
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 16, 2024 19:02:00 GMT
Honestly making a wood grip replacement isn't hard, you need the tools to do it though. It's not a very hard job (especially if the endcap can be screwed off and is not peened), so I don't think you need to bother someone who is super elite. You could just look around your area if there are any blacksmiths around. Else you could create a thread in the general discussion or sword repair subforums.
Good luck!
BTW I hate leather disk grips exactly because of this and I hate the texture, just saying |
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