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Post by metinemre on Dec 31, 2023 21:57:44 GMT
Hi I`d like to learn sharpening by hand. When I watch the youtube videos it looks super easy by hands of experienced people but angle itself is scaring me the most.
It would be awesome if wicked edge made a sword sharpening system lol.
Especially being able to put a sharp edge on a katana that came not so sharp from the production line or after a cutting session if it is dulled and not cutting well anymore. Later If I can accomplish this then I want to learn how to correct a blade that came with a secondary bevel edge or damaged edge to be reprofiled but I guess that would require a lot of experience.
I`m thinking about practicing on a cheap wakizashi so I don`t ruin any of the expensive swords.
What do you suggest? I`d prefer a fool proof system. Maybe the ones come with pedestal so stone doesn`t slip since I don`t have a way to stabilize the stone.
Traditional Japanese water stones? Oil stones, ceramic or arkansas? Which grits?
I`m ok to spend a few hundred bucks.
I found this web site but I don`t want to spend any money and buy the wrong type stones or the grits.
Any advise is highly appreciated.
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Post by larason2 on Jan 1, 2024 2:07:25 GMT
If you want to learn to traditionally polish, the Namikawa Heibei kit is the best. It's not that expensive, and it has everything you need. Honestly I have a full progression of natural Japanese water stones, but I don't like them as much as the kit. They make the stones from the dust of the stones they used to use, which aren't really available anymore, and which work really great for the task. I exclusively use these when sharpening nihonto, even though I have a full suite of natural stones.
That being said, the task isn't easy! You have to sharpen until you get the right muscle memory, and try different ways until one works with your body mechanics. It's also important to learn how to tell you're pushing too hard. If you push too hard with any stone, you'll start to burnish the blade, which will lead to loss of detail. The crown on the top is the sashikomi, which can be a nightmare to get if you didn't polish right on the way. But polishing a full sword properly can be a 150 hour task, especially if you're just starting out.
Also, to polish properly you really need a togi dai, but that's a lot of work to make in itself! I made myself one, but I recognize that's a lot of dedication. It doesn't make sense to try to spend over 100 hours polishing a sword if you don't have one though, you'll end up hurting yourself.
If all you want to do is sharpen, and you don't care much how it looks, a 1000 grit stone is sufficient, say the synthetic one from Shapton. You can put it on a table. The table will move and you'll get water everywhere, but you'll do a decent job once you get used to it, and the 1000 puts a relatively nice finish on the flat parts. With 1000 you can get it quite sharp, though the edge won't be as fine as if you also finish it at higher grit. For cutting stuff though, this probably doesn't matter. At first the profile will be all messed up, but as you get better your polishing will be more even. The most important tool is your eye! Spend more time looking at the sword than you do polishing, and you should do alright. It's one of those things you learn from mistakes along the way. 1000 grit is so fine you're unlikely to take enough metal off to ruin a blade though, so it's a relatively safe place to start. Practice on kitchen knives and such before you try a sword. The techniques are similar, just a sword is much more awkward to hold, and the risk of leaving it uneven is greater.
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Post by metinemre on Jan 1, 2024 3:22:22 GMT
If you want to learn to traditionally polish, the Namikawa Heibei kit is the best. It's not that expensive, and it has everything you need. Honestly I have a full progression of natural Japanese water stones, but I don't like them as much as the kit. They make the stones from the dust of the stones they used to use, which aren't really available anymore, and which work really great for the task. I exclusively use these when sharpening nihonto, even though I have a full suite of natural stones. That being said, the task isn't easy! You have to sharpen until you get the right muscle memory, and try different ways until one works with your body mechanics. It's also important to learn how to tell you're pushing too hard. If you push too hard with any stone, you'll start to burnish the blade, which will lead to loss of detail. The crown on the top is the sashikomi, which can be a nightmare to get if you didn't polish right on the way. But polishing a full sword properly can be a 150 hour task, especially if you're just starting out. Also, to polish properly you really need a togi dai, but that's a lot of work to make in itself! I made myself one, but I recognize that's a lot of dedication. It doesn't make sense to try to spend over 100 hours polishing a sword if you don't have one though, you'll end up hurting yourself. If all you want to do is sharpen, and you don't care much how it looks, a 1000 grit stone is sufficient, say the synthetic one from Shapton. You can put it on a table. The table will move and you'll get water everywhere, but you'll do a decent job once you get used to it, and the 1000 puts a relatively nice finish on the flat parts. With 1000 you can get it quite sharp, though the edge won't be as fine as if you also finish it at higher grit. For cutting stuff though, this probably doesn't matter. At first the profile will be all messed up, but as you get better your polishing will be more even. The most important tool is your eye! Spend more time looking at the sword than you do polishing, and you should do alright. It's one of those things you learn from mistakes along the way. 1000 grit is so fine you're unlikely to take enough metal off to ruin a blade though, so it's a relatively safe place to start. Practice on kitchen knives and such before you try a sword. The techniques are similar, just a sword is much more awkward to hold, and the risk of leaving it uneven is greater.
Thanks for your reply. I used to be pretty patient when I was younger, older I get I`m getting impatient. I think it`s the fear of running out of time soon :D I hardly doubt full polish at any level would be my thing, more like learning to put a good edge on a sword while resharpening a blade got dull or arrived dull.
So if I understand right, unless it is super dull like a practice sword, but not cutting paper dull; 1000 grit is all I need. If I want finer and shinier what are next grit levels? (if I wanted two maybe 3 stones max)
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Post by larason2 on Jan 1, 2024 4:22:50 GMT
The truth is that everything that you do to a sword after 1000 grit makes it look worse until you get to sashikomi. At 1000 grit, you can get a nice even looking surface without much effort. At 2000, 5000 and 8000 grit, it always looks patchy, at least at first, the patchier the finer you get. Then, when you put the sashikomi on it with a uchigumori, it looks even again.
That being said, you can get a 2000 and give it a "textured" finish, basically scratch it one way until it's even, then the other way a limited amount until it looks homogenous. You can actually do this with any grit, and the surface will get finer and finer until you get to the uchigumori. It also takes longer and it's harder to make the whole surface uniform though, which is why it usually looks patchy. You can also do this with the 1000. Maybe try that and see how you like it. If you want it a bit finer, you can get a 2000, then 5000 then 8000.
I've tried different grits in between these, but these are the traditional grits, and they work well. If you get in between them, then you need to add one or more stones to get to the uchigumori. It doesn't work to use say, 1000 then 3000, then 5000. You'll take forever to remove the scratches from the 1000, and you'll find you're just polishing the high points. If you add another syone in between those, it might take less time that way, but you'll end up with the same result.
The only time you need coarser grits are if you're reprofiling a lot, or say taking a lot of rust off. Even then, you have to be careful with low grits, because it's easy to take too much off or leave the piece uneven. Another tip with low grits is to make sure to work on the whole surface evenly. Otherwise you'll get depressions. Always start with less low grit polishing than you think it needs, then try the 1000 to see how it turned out. It will quickly remove the superficial metal, which doesn't matter as much as the deepest scratches.
In traditional polishing you don't want it shiny, this is evidence that you're pushing it too hard, and you'll lose detail in the metal. It should always look fairly dull. That being said, if you don't care about the hamon or weld lines, you can sharpen with 1000, then finish the surface with sandpaper and burnish with a migakibo. You won't see any detail, but it will be functional. In Japan if the surface is in fairly good condition, they would use a synthetic nagura like 5000, then 1200, then 1500 sandpaper with a few drops of oil. They clean with tsunoko (deer antler dust), and burnish with a migakibo. This creates a shiny finish with minimal detail revealed. This is used on the shinogi, including any bo hi, and the mune.
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Post by metinemre on Jan 1, 2024 6:44:43 GMT
The truth is that everything that you do to a sword after 1000 grit makes it look worse until you get to sashikomi. At 1000 grit, you can get a nice even looking surface without much effort. At 2000, 5000 and 8000 grit, it always looks patchy, at least at first, the patchier the finer you get. Then, when you put the sashikomi on it with a uchigumori, it looks even again. That being said, you can get a 2000 and give it a "textured" finish, basically scratch it one way until it's even, then the other way a limited amount until it looks homogenous. You can actually do this with any grit, and the surface will get finer and finer until you get to the uchigumori. It also takes longer and it's harder to make the whole surface uniform though, which is why it usually looks patchy. You can also do this with the 1000. Maybe try that and see how you like it. If you want it a bit finer, you can get a 2000, then 5000 then 8000. I've tried different grits in between these, but these are the traditional grits, and they work well. If you get in between them, then you need to add one or more stones to get to the uchigumori. It doesn't work to use say, 1000 then 3000, then 5000. You'll take forever to remove the scratches from the 1000, and you'll find you're just polishing the high points. If you add another syone in between those, it might take less time that way, but you'll end up with the same result. The only time you need coarser grits are if you're reprofiling a lot, or say taking a lot of rust off. Even then, you have to be careful with low grits, because it's easy to take too much off or leave the piece uneven. Another tip with low grits is to make sure to work on the whole surface evenly. Otherwise you'll get depressions. Always start with less low grit polishing than you think it needs, then try the 1000 to see how it turned out. It will quickly remove the superficial metal, which doesn't matter as much as the deepest scratches. In traditional polishing you don't want it shiny, this is evidence that you're pushing it too hard, and you'll lose detail in the metal. It should always look fairly dull. That being said, if you don't care about the hamon or weld lines, you can sharpen with 1000, then finish the surface with sandpaper and burnish with a migakibo. You won't see any detail, but it will be functional. In Japan if the surface is in fairly good condition, they would use a synthetic nagura like 5000, then 1200, then 1500 sandpaper with a few drops of oil. They clean with tsunoko (deer antler dust), and burnish with a migakibo. This creates a shiny finish with minimal detail revealed. This is used on the shinogi, including any bo hi, and the mune. Awesome information, I really appreciate your time in writing all these. You saved me some money too. I was about to purchase multiple grits before I started the post.
Happy new year!
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Post by metinemre on Jan 5, 2024 4:52:26 GMT
The truth is that everything that you do to a sword after 1000 grit makes it look worse until you get to sashikomi. At 1000 grit, you can get a nice even looking surface without much effort. At 2000, 5000 and 8000 grit, it always looks patchy, at least at first, the patchier the finer you get. Then, when you put the sashikomi on it with a uchigumori, it looks even again. That being said, you can get a 2000 and give it a "textured" finish, basically scratch it one way until it's even, then the other way a limited amount until it looks homogenous. You can actually do this with any grit, and the surface will get finer and finer until you get to the uchigumori. It also takes longer and it's harder to make the whole surface uniform though, which is why it usually looks patchy. You can also do this with the 1000. Maybe try that and see how you like it. If you want it a bit finer, you can get a 2000, then 5000 then 8000. I've tried different grits in between these, but these are the traditional grits, and they work well. If you get in between them, then you need to add one or more stones to get to the uchigumori. It doesn't work to use say, 1000 then 3000, then 5000. You'll take forever to remove the scratches from the 1000, and you'll find you're just polishing the high points. If you add another syone in between those, it might take less time that way, but you'll end up with the same result. The only time you need coarser grits are if you're reprofiling a lot, or say taking a lot of rust off. Even then, you have to be careful with low grits, because it's easy to take too much off or leave the piece uneven. Another tip with low grits is to make sure to work on the whole surface evenly. Otherwise you'll get depressions. Always start with less low grit polishing than you think it needs, then try the 1000 to see how it turned out. It will quickly remove the superficial metal, which doesn't matter as much as the deepest scratches. In traditional polishing you don't want it shiny, this is evidence that you're pushing it too hard, and you'll lose detail in the metal. It should always look fairly dull. That being said, if you don't care about the hamon or weld lines, you can sharpen with 1000, then finish the surface with sandpaper and burnish with a migakibo. You won't see any detail, but it will be functional. In Japan if the surface is in fairly good condition, they would use a synthetic nagura like 5000, then 1200, then 1500 sandpaper with a few drops of oil. They clean with tsunoko (deer antler dust), and burnish with a migakibo. This creates a shiny finish with minimal detail revealed. This is used on the shinogi, including any bo hi, and the mune. I ended up purchasing Naniwa Professional Chosera 600/1000/2000/5000 stones and a xl leather strop with green honing compound. Will work on kitchen knives and a few dull pocket knives I have to see how it goes :D
Wish me luck. If I see the light I`ll advance to a tanto then a wakizashi.
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Post by larason2 on Jan 5, 2024 23:59:29 GMT
Ok, those should do fine. Modern synthetic stones are actually quite good. You can also use the 600 to flatten the 1000. Another thing that will work for flattening is 220 or 400 grit sandpaper on a flat surface. What I use is the surface of my anvil. That helps to ensure you get consistent results from the stones. As they curve, they produce a more concave stone surface, which is usually desirable, since it makes the knife edge convex. Too deep though, and it becomes hard to use, and hard to be consistent. A strop is just a very fine abrasive, which is good for finishing edges. I have very fine stones, so I don't bother to use one.
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Post by metinemre on Jan 6, 2024 3:24:04 GMT
Ok, those should do fine. Modern synthetic stones are actually quite good. You can also use the 600 to flatten the 1000. Another thing that will work for flattening is 220 or 400 grit sandpaper on a flat surface. What I use is the surface of my anvil. That helps to ensure you get consistent results from the stones. As they curve, they produce a more concave stone surface, which is usually desirable, since it makes the knife edge convex. Too deep though, and it becomes hard to use, and hard to be consistent. A strop is just a very fine abrasive, which is good for finishing edges. I have very fine stones, so I don't bother to use one. Thank you. If I just want to do a touch up to maintain a sharp edge is the green honing compound block and strop good enough or would you suggest a diamond paste ?? microns or a spray?
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Post by larason2 on Jan 6, 2024 5:19:12 GMT
There's different opinions on this, and I personally don't strop. You can get it fairly sharp with the 1000, the higher grits and stropping just refine the edge, which is what is usually called honing. Some would say above about 3000 you're just polishing, not honing anymore, but I find the edge is keener and holds better if you sharpen at the polishing grits. You have to be careful though, they can also dull the edge! Stropping is just a sort of fine polishing grit, if done correctly. It can leave it razor sharp, but like all polishing grits it can also dull it. If you've sharpened it to a fine edge, stropping can take it to the next level if your technique is good. If an edge is dull, it won't make it sharp again though. If you have a fine edge, and through use it gets slightly less keen, you can touch it up with the strop. Such an edge is good for shaving, but not really good for cutting as with a sword. Too fine and it can get overly thin, and subject to chipping. On a razor that's ok, but on a sword you can make it vulnerable to chips and other damage. The main point is to be careful you preserve the edge geometry at the coarse grits, then carefully proceed up the grits, making sure you're not dulling as you're trying to hone it finer.
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Post by metinemre on Jan 6, 2024 6:23:53 GMT
There's different opinions on this, and I personally don't strop. You can get it fairly sharp with the 1000, the higher grits and stropping just refine the edge, which is what is usually called honing. Some would say above about 3000 you're just polishing, not honing anymore, but I find the edge is keener and holds better if you sharpen at the polishing grits. You have to be careful though, they can also dull the edge! Stropping is just a sort of fine polishing grit, if done correctly. It can leave it razor sharp, but like all polishing grits it can also dull it. If you've sharpened it to a fine edge, stropping can take it to the next level if your technique is good. If an edge is dull, it won't make it sharp again though. If you have a fine edge, and through use it gets slightly less keen, you can touch it up with the strop. Such an edge is good for shaving, but not really good for cutting as with a sword. Too fine and it can get overly thin, and subject to chipping. On a razor that's ok, but on a sword you can make it vulnerable to chips and other damage. The main point is to be careful you preserve the edge geometry at the coarse grits, then carefully proceed up the grits, making sure you're not dulling as you're trying to hone it finer. got it. Thank you for all your help.
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 6, 2024 8:22:28 GMT
I like diamond sprays, but for swords you don't need them. The only thing you get from going to diamond is, that you can polish harder materials, but you doin't get a better finish. I wouldn't go smaller than 3µm, as larason2 says, at some point you only polish more, but you don't really get any added sharpness. Dulling the edge with a strop happens when the strop is too soft or you push too hard, you'll round over the apex then. The most important thing is that the polishing compound is uniform in particle size, the cheaper options aren't always. Don't worry about if the compound is aluminium oxide, carbide or diamond, you only need this for the really wear resistand steels like M390 or S90V.
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Post by metinemre on Jan 7, 2024 1:41:01 GMT
I like diamond sprays, but for swords you don't need them. The only thing you get from going to diamond is, that you can polish harder materials, but you doin't get a better finish. I wouldn't go smaller than 3µm, as larason2 says, at some point you only polish more, but you don't really get any added sharpness. Dulling the edge with a strop happens when the strop is too soft or you push too hard, you'll round over the apex then. The most important thing is that the polishing compound is uniform in particle size, the cheaper options aren't always. Don't worry about if the compound is aluminium oxide, carbide or diamond, you only need this for the really wear resistand steels like M390 or S90V.
Thank you.
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