alexxe
Manufacturer/Vendor
If you don't know me, now you know.
Posts: 54
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Post by alexxe on Dec 25, 2023 13:12:03 GMT
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Post by larason2 on Dec 25, 2023 23:46:16 GMT
I haven't watched the video, but what the Chinese forges call "tamahagane" isn't really tamahagane. Technically, it can only be called tamahagane if it is made using iron sand as the ore source, and smelted using a tatara furnace. What the Chinese call tamahagane appears to be a pig iron made from hematite ore, that is then refined and folded to give it a grain. It seems they use borax or something similar as a flux as well, so you don't get the interesting folding lines of real traditional tamahagane. That being said, I'm quite a fan of Chinese "tamahagane," and have several blades with it. It's not too hard to polish, and polishes up nicely, with a nice hamon and hada. It's not the same as Japanese tamahagane though. So that would be my choice of the above!
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Post by mrstabby on Dec 26, 2023 7:24:53 GMT
I haven't watched the video, but what the Chinese forges call "tamahagane" isn't really tamahagane. Technically, it can only be called tamahagane if it is made using iron sand as the ore source, and smelted using a tatara furnace. What the Chinese call tamahagane appears to be a pig iron made from hematite ore, that is then refined and folded to give it a grain. It seems they use borax or something similar as a flux as well, so you don't get the interesting folding lines of real traditional tamahagane. That being said, I'm quite a fan of Chinese "tamahagane," and have several blades with it. It's not too hard to polish, and polishes up nicely, with a nice hamon and hada. It's not the same as Japanese tamahagane though. So that would be my choice of the above! He mentions this, not in that much detail, but he does.
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Post by izzy on Dec 26, 2023 8:58:13 GMT
To answer the question, for me, Spring steel.
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Post by mrstabby on Dec 26, 2023 9:36:49 GMT
To answer the question, for me, Spring steel. Right, forgot about it. I see the visual appeal of laminated steel and the edge retention benefits of differential hardening, but for using I prefer a modern spring steel.
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Post by larason2 on Dec 26, 2023 20:03:17 GMT
Just watched the video. It's true he mentions it, but he still implies the sword is made from traditional tamahagane, which I am pretty sure it is not (from owing and having polished multiple examples of both). That being said, the steel they use is a very good steel from an aesthetic perspective, but it's not real tamahagane. It's just a different example of damascus type steel (better than their other "damascus" types by a lot though). I guess it's possible that particular blade is real tamahagane, but the other ones I've gotten aren't, but I very much doubt it because of the very time consuming nature of processing real tamahagane into a sword.
I would also be good to clarify that the spring steel blade is through hardened, and the the T10 and "tamahagane" blades are differentially hardened, and shouldn't be attempted to be bent.
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Post by metinemre on Dec 31, 2023 20:21:38 GMT
TH monosteel modern spring steel is what I prefer (5160/9260/6150). Lately TH sx105v and s5 from Cloudhammer too.
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Jan 1, 2024 13:01:27 GMT
I have 3 answers, each with a scope. For overall toughness and for a regular "cutter" I prefer Mono steel/spring steel. For beauty and appreciation, I prefer Tamahagane. But, most my swords are hybrid. I prefer a properly done folded lamination with a differential heat treat. This gives much of the beauty of tamahagane, but with modern mono steel at the edge. Probably my favorite lamination is Gyaku Kobuse (folded steel for much of the blade, and only the edge is a modern non-folded steel.
I do a UV laser inspection of the folds and forge welds of the blades. If they fail inspection, the vendor gets pictures of the failed welds (or failed lamination structure), and it goes back for a replacement. The UV laser excites the steel to give secondary emissions (fluorescence) which makes oddities easy to spot in the microphotographs I take. It also allows you to spot "fake laminations" even after the blade has been polished to a mirror finish. A common thing some vendors to is make the entire blade folded steel, and then they polish the edge to make it "look" like San Mai lamination. Polishing the edge does not fool the laser.
For those who are curious, you are free to look at my old postings where UV photographs were provided in the threads. A rather large and expansive thread was done where blades were purchased from seven different manufacturers and were compared to the vendor claims. I tend to prefer no-destructive testing when possible.
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alexxe
Manufacturer/Vendor
If you don't know me, now you know.
Posts: 54
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Post by alexxe on Jan 2, 2024 11:42:04 GMT
I have 3 answers, each with a scope. For overall toughness and for a regular "cutter" I prefer Mono steel/spring steel. For beauty and appreciation, I prefer Tamahagane. But, most my swords are hybrid. I prefer a properly done folded lamination with a differential heat treat. This gives much of the beauty of tamahagane, but with modern mono steel at the edge. Probably my favorite lamination is Gyaku Kobuse (folded steel for much of the blade, and only the edge is a modern non-folded steel. I do a UV laser inspection of the folds and forge welds of the blades. If they fail inspection, the vendor gets pictures of the failed welds (or failed lamination structure), and it goes back for a replacement. The UV laser excites the steel to give secondary emissions (fluorescence) which makes oddities easy to spot in the microphotographs I take. It also allows you to spot "fake laminations" even after the blade has been polished to a mirror finish. A common thing some vendors to is make the entire blade folded steel, and then they polish the edge to make it "look" like San Mai lamination. Polishing the edge does not fool the laser. For those who are curious, you are free to look at my old postings where UV photographs were provided in the threads. A rather large and expansive thread was done where blades were purchased from seven different manufacturers and were compared to the vendor claims. I tend to prefer no-destructive testing when possible. When the so called craftsmanship meets with science...
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Post by blairbob on Jan 3, 2024 3:55:45 GMT
Like Addertooth, depends on application.
I mean, if I had the money for Tamahagane, I would prefer that than folded modern steels.
The difference between worked pig iron and Tamahagane doesn't make enough matter to me except to my pocketbook.
Not sold on laminate structure unless you just want it for coolness and flex. I'm not sure enough ppl will care about as a Flex besides the user.
A lot of the low end Nihonto market seems better than the high end market from China/Motohara. But that would also be a trip to Japan or a few cheaper trips elsewhere.
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Post by larason2 on Jan 3, 2024 4:03:13 GMT
In my opinion laminated has one advantage over monosteel from an aesthetic perspective, and that is you can see the weld line or lines if it is polished properly. It's strange to me some smiths polish over this line, as though it's not contributing anything to the blade. I think it makes the polish much more interesting.
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Post by blairbob on Jan 4, 2024 1:58:52 GMT
i suppose but that lamination means nothing to me. no one ever calls me refined though. they're just amazed i have dress shoes, pants, dress shirt and can tie a sharpass tie
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 4, 2024 9:12:42 GMT
i suppose but that lamination means nothing to me. no one ever calls me refined though. they're just amazed i have dress shoes, pants, dress shirt and can tie a sharpass tie Not having a dress shirt just means more money to spend on blades. I am not much into japanese style swords, real laminated swords are pretty rare (in fact I have not seen any besides some pictures of custom viking era swords with a high carbon edge). I have seen 2 or 3 knives delaminate with hard use (cold steel stuff), though I think the chance of this happening is much higher when batoning a knife than when using a sword as intended. I think laminating a blade needs a lot of skill, there is just less that can go wrong with simple monosteel. I don't know, I just don't trust laminated blades in my price segment (500-1000€/$ max).
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Post by larason2 on Jan 4, 2024 17:11:48 GMT
While I'd say weld failures can happen, they are pretty rare, at least from good quality forges. That being said, if a given forge doesn't have the right heat in their forge, or doesn't use flux /weld it properly, then all of their welds will be a risk. If 2 or 3 knives have delaminated from cold steel, then it's a pretty good chance the forge they use (or used at that time) for welding wasn't reducing enough, or they didn't weld properly, and all of their blades from that time period are going to be brittle along the weld line. So it's fair to say a laminated blade can be a risk at budget levels, but just because one forge doesn't weld properly doesn't mean they all do. If it's going to be a wall hanger though, then it doesn't matter!
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Post by larason2 on Jan 6, 2024 0:08:15 GMT
I asked on the BladeSmithForum, which I frequent, about weld failures. They say that some steels are really hard to weld, among them stainless steels. Not sure what kind of knives the cold steel ones that delaminated were, but if they were the VG10 san mai they seem to use a lot of now, then it's no surprise they delaminated. Apparently that's a fairly common occurrence. Another metal that tends to delaminate is wrought iron, along the grain. You'd expect welded carbon steels to be more durable though, particularly if they were welded correctly (good reducing atmosphere in the forge at high enough temperature, proper use of flux). So while it may be true that a laminated blade can be a bit less trustworthy than monosteel, unless it's one of the stainless steel ones I'd think they're pretty dependable. I have some wrought iron I work with, and it may be that some of the "tamahagane" types are also basically wrought iron, with the edge carburized or a carbon steel. So I would be careful cutting with those. Generally they are chosen more for aesthetics anyway.
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admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2,088
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Post by admin on Jan 6, 2024 5:05:25 GMT
Personally I like T10 tool steel for a blade with hamon and monotempered spring steel for a solid beater (though monotempered 1045 and 1060 can also be surprisingly springy and resilient). No real opinion on T10 or 1095 if monotemepered - but I am not a big fan of differentially hardened spring steel blades as it brings no benefit (Ryujin tried one, which looked nice enough, but had no practical advantages).
As most of you already know, Tamahagane translates as 'precious steel' and I think could be compared to French Champagne/ in that calling it Tamahagane when it is made outside of Japan isn't quite right, just like a production Katana (no matter how good it may be) cannot be called a 'Nihonto'. As such, forgoing the amazing quality of modern steel to make a sword from pig iron and charging a premium for the privilege seems a little odd.. It's fair enough if the blade is made in Japan by a Japanese swordsmith as the attention to detail and personal investment of the smith in the sword is in a league of its own and has deep spiritual overtones that aren't relevant to the processes done in Longquan. But it seems a lot of collectors out there get caught up in the hype and somehow believe that a blade made from 'Tamahagane' is superior to a blade using humdrum modern steels, when the reality is more often than not you end up paying a high price for a blade that that may have many hidden flaws and weak points..
Laminated blades are a pain to make as it is a rare smith who can make a good one on their first try. Typically it takes several aborted attempts for each laminated blade that hits the shelves, which directly impacts the price and production time (our Muramasa is a bit famous for this and can end up taking longer than quoted as the smiths we use are quite pedantic about QC, as well they should be, and so lead time may vary by a few extra weeks).
Swordier seems like an interesting company, they have access to some decently made swords from what I can see so far (especially their medieval blades, which appear to be well made and very well tempered). But I think for the ticket price of nearly $4K for their Tamahagane blade, it would be possible to pick up a halfway decent Nihonto antique and doesn't represent very good value for money (especially as it could end up snapping or breaking on a bad cut due to impurities in the steel).
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admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2,088
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Post by admin on Jan 6, 2024 5:09:42 GMT
By the way, just moved this one to the Japanese discussion thread as it is of course technically not a review
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Post by larason2 on Jan 6, 2024 5:27:03 GMT
Some fair points. I wouldn't pay more than about $500 for a longquan "tamahagane" blade because as you say, much more than that and you could very well get a nihonto. However, I quite like the longquan style ones at that price because they polish up nicely and easily, and have a decent hamon and hada. I wouldn't even attempt to cut with them, particularly after I've spent a fair bit of time polishing them. At that point they are mostly for the aesthetic. I would say though that the forging of the LQ "tamahagane" blades I have is quite fine, and the blades are really solid.
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 6, 2024 9:18:13 GMT
I asked on the BladeSmithForum, which I frequent, about weld failures. They say that some steels are really hard to weld, among them stainless steels. Not sure what kind of knives the cold steel ones that delaminated were, but if they were the VG10 san mai they seem to use a lot of now, then it's no surprise they delaminated. Apparently that's a fairly common occurrence. Another metal that tends to delaminate is wrought iron, along the grain. You'd expect welded carbon steels to be more durable though, particularly if they were welded correctly (good reducing atmosphere in the forge at high enough temperature, proper use of flux). So while it may be true that a laminated blade can be a bit less trustworthy than monosteel, unless it's one of the stainless steel ones I'd think they're pretty dependable. I have some wrought iron I work with, and it may be that some of the "tamahagane" types are also basically wrought iron, with the edge carburized or a carbon steel. So I would be careful cutting with those. Generally they are chosen more for aesthetics anyway. Yeah, VG10 SanMai were the ones I have seen. Makes a lot of sense. I mean it was hard use, one could even define it as abuse.
I just trust the monosteel more because it's harder to mess up. Especially on the cheap end. Would not think twice to use a laminated from a smith known for quality or if they had good customer support and I get some backup from them if something is wrong. The unknown Longquan smith....Not so much. But I might be classified as "overly careful". It all depends on the price area we're talking in the end. Although price isn't always a sign of quality... Also depends on location, some areas have more real nihonto for a lower price than others.
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Post by treeslicer on Jan 7, 2024 4:58:58 GMT
For me, Japanese tamahagane. You can get decent blades cheaply (same price range as European cavalry sabers), if you're interested in using them as cutters, and "out of polish" or gimei isn't an issue.
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