mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Dec 23, 2023 11:37:33 GMT
.... Finger catching is enough for me. I'm sure they'll perform sharper though..... Need to ask, what do you mean by finger catching sharp? Not sure I know what you mean.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Dec 23, 2023 13:27:19 GMT
Will the myth of sharpness being inversely proportional to edge durability ever die? Or that chipping thing? I'm now convinced that it will not. Modern people have no idea about sharpening and edged tools. Looks like modern customers just want to believe myths. People will keep repeating nonsense like swords needing durable edges to cut armour, like Kopciuch does. Because it's easy to make sempriniesque edges and sharp bevel transitions and call it historical (lol) and it takes plenty of time to make a great edge. Swords were sidearms and symbols, rarely used on most battlefields, and they have to be very sharp to be effective at all. (Excluding the age of plate armour when they became roasting spits) If you actually use one in a life or death situation or a duel and there is plenty of metal on metal contact, it becomes trash and is discarded. Or used to make a dagger. And you buy another one after the previous one served its purpose. If you just use it to murder people or fleeing enemies, it can serve generations. If you buy it for social gatherings, it can even end up in a museum. I now understand why certain people, experienced in their field, tend to become disillusioned a lot. Having to explain the most basic concepts again and again is annoying. Even then, plenty of more experienced collectors tend to learn a lot more from movies and makers who advertise their shortcomings as historical accuracy, than from experimentation. People who make money nowadays from making sword replicas know nothing about how swords were used in the past and what edges they had while in service. I also know nothing about that. We will never know unless someone invents a time machine. But it's likely that physics that determine what cuts and what doesn't hasn't changed since Middle Ages. Yet I, as a modest individual can test a few swords with different types of edges and different sharpness, on some fabric covered targets and learn. Makers, in a position to make all kinds of tests easily, will not because they prioritize making fast money. And make nonsensical claims like 'in middle ages swords were not sharp like knives because they needed to stand the rigours of battle'. It's just so much never ending bs. I think I need to get out from this silly game. the difference is in medieval times in history swords were disposable tools, nowadays a customer expects if they buy a sword from you it has to last forever and should it ever take any slight nick or chip whatsoever "its trash" this has lead modern sword producers to make them thicker and thicker and always over emphasize crazy durability tests cuz they know customers are gonna do ignorant crap like beat trees. It's not so much lack of knowledge as the goal post has moved, If you made a 100% historical sword and sold it to a modern customer they would probably say it was trash.
Thats why companies like zombietools who basically make sharpened crowbars, outsell the hell out of people making "trick cutters" with super thin straight razor edges.
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Dec 23, 2023 14:17:06 GMT
Will the myth of sharpness being inversely proportional to edge durability ever die? Or that chipping thing? I'm now convinced that it will not. Modern people have no idea about sharpening and edged tools. Looks like modern customers just want to believe myths. People will keep repeating nonsense like swords needing durable edges to cut armour, like Kopciuch does. Because it's easy to make sempriniesque edges and sharp bevel transitions and call it historical (lol) and it takes plenty of time to make a great edge. Swords were sidearms and symbols, rarely used on most battlefields, and they have to be very sharp to be effective at all. (Excluding the age of plate armour when they became roasting spits) If you actually use one in a life or death situation or a duel and there is plenty of metal on metal contact, it becomes trash and is discarded. Or used to make a dagger. And you buy another one after the previous one served its purpose. If you just use it to murder people or fleeing enemies, it can serve generations. If you buy it for social gatherings, it can even end up in a museum. I now understand why certain people, experienced in their field, tend to become disillusioned a lot. Having to explain the most basic concepts again and again is annoying. Even then, plenty of more experienced collectors tend to learn a lot more from movies and makers who advertise their shortcomings as historical accuracy, than from experimentation. People who make money nowadays from making sword replicas know nothing about how swords were used in the past and what edges they had while in service. I also know nothing about that. We will never know unless someone invents a time machine. But it's likely that physics that determine what cuts and what doesn't hasn't changed since Middle Ages. Yet I, as a modest individual can test a few swords with different types of edges and different sharpness, on some fabric covered targets and learn. Makers, in a position to make all kinds of tests easily, will not because they prioritize making fast money. And make nonsensical claims like 'in middle ages swords were not sharp like knives because they needed to stand the rigours of battle'. It's just so much never ending bs. I think I need to get out from this silly game. the difference is in medieval times in history swords were disposable tools, nowadays a customer expects if they buy a sword from you it has to last forever and should it ever take any slight nick or chip whatsoever "its trash" this has lead modern sword producers to make them thicker and thicker and always over emphasize crazy durability tests cuz they know customers are gonna do ignorant crap like beat trees. It's not so much lack of knowledge as the goal post has moved, If you made a 100% historical sword and sold it to a modern customer they would probably say it was trash.
Thats why companies like zombietools who basically make sharpened crowbars, outsell the hell out of people making "trick cutters" with super thin straight razor edges.
Probably also the reason why there are so many stainless swords around. "It rusts, it' crap" I have unfortunately seen reviews like this on many carbon steel blades. Honestly I do want my sword to last a while. I don't want it to snap on a bad cut, that's why I like spring steel. But I am not cutting bone or wood without expecting at least a glint of damage. I like destructive tests on youtube, so people can see, what a sword can and can't take. (I have a bad case of cognitive dissonance when a blade breaks, I like the sound they make when they go flying but I shudder thinking any of mine making that sound). I hate the sharpened crowbars, just feels wrong to me (I know some cite SHTF for the existance of these blades, but that's a small percentage of it happening stacked on top of a smaller percentage of you surviving). Give me a historical 1:1 any day.
People seem to expect that everything that's good for a knife is good for a sword as well, if they know anything about blades at all.
I have seen people downplaying the chinese Dao because it is thin and not highly durable, but from my experience these can still slice even when very dull, so even if the edge is very damaged, I would not want to be on the recieving end.
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Post by larason2 on Dec 23, 2023 16:19:34 GMT
For the finger catching test, I rub the side of my finger or thumb on the edge of the blade, with the blade pointing in the same general direction as the finger, and the blade moving toward the finger tip. If the blade is pretty sharp, it will catch the side of the skin. If it's dull, it will slide over the skin without catching. This can't tell the difference between shaving or paper cutting sharp and just sharp enough, but it's a good basic test of sharpness. It's basically a test of micro serrations, and somewhat also sharpness. I tried to take a picture of how I'd test a pocket knife:
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Post by toddstratton1 on Dec 23, 2023 16:34:31 GMT
For the finger catching test, I rub the side of my finger or thumb on the edge of the blade, with the blade pointing in the same general direction as the finger, and the blade moving toward the finger tip. If the blade is pretty sharp, it will catch the side of the skin. If it's dull, it will slide over the skin without catching. This can't tell the difference between shaving or paper cutting sharp and just sharp enough, but it's a good basic test of sharpness. It's basically a test of micro serrations, and somewhat also sharpness. I tried to take a picture of how I'd test a pocket knife: Does that mean the sharper it is that it will bite into your thumb and not let it continue to glide smoothly? Most my albions I can run fingers on the edge without worrying about being cut. My Motohara, Sulowski, and hollow ground Earl will slice my finger far too quickly in comparison. My atrims also aren't shaving sharp but they seem to have some of the best cutting performance of all of them. That Angus Trim magic.
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Post by larason2 on Dec 23, 2023 16:43:49 GMT
Yes, I consider that basic sharpness. If you thumb glides over it, I consider it not sharp. As I said though, it won't differentiate between shaving sharp and just basic sharp.
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Dec 23, 2023 19:01:12 GMT
Yeah, I have found that even a blade that has an obvious dull spot in the light can still catch the friction righes of a finger. Looking for glinting with a flashlight is the most accurate test besides cutting some thin paper for me. But then, I sharpen scalpel blades, so my standards might be too high. Not that I keep swords that sharp, only the Dao are able to shave, and that happened by accident, I didn't set out with that as goal, they just have a really low edge angle by design. The Dao and the LK Chen Jian were the only swords I was able to cut with directly out of the box. Many others did catch on the finger but were not able to cut bottles.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Dec 24, 2023 0:00:55 GMT
the difference is in medieval times in history swords were disposable tools, nowadays a customer expects if they buy a sword from you it has to last forever and should it ever take any slight nick or chip whatsoever "its trash" this has lead modern sword producers to make them thicker and thicker and always over emphasize crazy durability tests cuz they know customers are gonna do ignorant crap like beat trees. It's not so much lack of knowledge as the goal post has moved, If you made a 100% historical sword and sold it to a modern customer they would probably say it was trash.
Thats why companies like zombietools who basically make sharpened crowbars, outsell the hell out of people making "trick cutters" with super thin straight razor edges.
Probably also the reason why there are so many stainless swords around. "It rusts, it' crap" I have unfortunately seen reviews like this on many carbon steel blades. Honestly I do want my sword to last a while. I don't want it to snap on a bad cut, that's why I like spring steel. But I am not cutting bone or wood without expecting at least a glint of damage. I like destructive tests on youtube, so people can see, what a sword can and can't take. (I have a bad case of cognitive dissonance when a blade breaks, I like the sound they make when they go flying but I shudder thinking any of mine making that sound). I hate the sharpened crowbars, just feels wrong to me (I know some cite SHTF for the existance of these blades, but that's a small percentage of it happening stacked on top of a smaller percentage of you surviving). Give me a historical 1:1 any day.
People seem to expect that everything that's good for a knife is good for a sword as well, if they know anything about blades at all.
I have seen people downplaying the chinese Dao because it is thin and not highly durable, but from my experience these can still slice even when very dull, so even if the edge is very damaged, I would not want to be on the recieving end.
yeah i agree, I get a lot of wierd requests. "hey can you make me a katana but i want it 3/4" thick" ext. *shudders*
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Post by jdc on Dec 24, 2023 19:21:32 GMT
I guess it's up to me to be "that guy".... I think what you really are asking for is the who is the consistently sharpest swordmaker
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