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Post by fogofwar on Dec 21, 2023 15:01:14 GMT
That`s to me the big question. I`ve been buying these things here and there ( US and China ) for 7+ years and have a closet full of 4' butter knives disguised as Samauri swords, that cost from $99 to $700+....
It`s a Sword ! It should be very sharp ! Perhaps Razor sharp, it should cleanly slice ( not tear) copy paper. Most, if not all UTube " reviewers" muscle the swords through Tameshigiri and even various vicious fruits & veggis like trying to hit a fast ball out of the park. Do they not know how to work the blades or is it a dull dud.
Yes, I know, it`s the problem of buying mail order, but surely there is a forge/seller/mail order dude that deliver very sharp swords ?
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Nox
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Post by Nox on Dec 21, 2023 15:10:30 GMT
Its a production sword problem. Every Albion I have purchases over the past ten or so years has been butter knife dull, where as every lk chen I have purchased came very sharp. Its seems to be a luck of the draw thing.
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Post by randomnobody on Dec 21, 2023 16:07:09 GMT
Silly question: Are you sure you're buying sharp swords? Lots of makers sell and ship unsharpened, even blunt swords. Windlass, Deepeeka, Del Tin, and others do not sell sharp swords. They can be sharpened, and will perform adequately after, but you'll receive a dull sword.
There's also iaito, which are unsharpened katana.
Other makers simply have a lot of variance in how they sharpen various models. For years, Hanwei had the sharpest Japanese and Chinese swords, but less-sharp European swords. Dynasty Forge (and its parent company that I feel like I'm spelling wrong so I'll omit) were also very sharp on their Japanese and Chinese lines, but I don't remember if they did European at the time I'm speaking to.
The greater market also has different expectations about how sharp different types of swords should be. "Razor sharp katana" and "blunt bashing medieval swords" being myths this forum has been fighting for decades. Unfortunately, makers will produce what the greater market expects.
As for YouTube reviews, well, I'll keep it short and polite: Very few of these guys have any formal training or education in the use of swords. They're often more concerned with being deliberately aggressive against their swords than demonstrating proper technique. They're not as trustworthy as they want you to believe they are, save but a few.
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Post by Lord Newport on Dec 21, 2023 16:14:40 GMT
Its a production sword problem. Every Albion I have purchases over the past ten or so years has been butter knife dull, where as every lk chen I have purchased came very sharp. Its seems to be a luck of the draw thing. Are you comparing European swords to Japanese style katana? If you are, that is an apples and oranges comparison.
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Post by mrstabby on Dec 21, 2023 16:33:54 GMT
Most pocket knives don't come really sharp either, and as Nox said, there is luck of the draw. I have heard of people recieving Albions with an uneven grind (like 20°one side and 25° the other side of the bevel, not directly linked to sharpness but the person on the grinder), while others were impressed. The person grinding just needs to have a bad day. The LK Chen do come pretty sharp, but also not sharp, they apex the edge with a pretty rough belt, so it's quite toothy but has a good apex. It does cut bottles and stuff, but I like more sharpness than that. The Cold Steel all had a nasty burr, after removing that, almost as sharp as the LK Chen. Also easier to sharpen than the LK because of the softer steel. The sharpest I got so far was a Windlass, they sharpen some of their swords but I also got a really dull one from them as well. Hanwei is really bad, the edge is very rounded and rough, I always need to invest a lot of effort there to get them as sharp as I want them. At least on the swords with a rough finish like the Tinker line, the polished swords like the Oxtail Dao were better. Any time you buy a sword that isn't a 3000$ custom you will have to sharpen it yourself, after some use at the latest. Also the sharpening service from some sellers isn't worth anything, better of doing it yourself most of the time (I don't know how good KoA is). There is also the problem of "very sharp" meaning different things to different people. The LK Chen are sharp, but I would not call it very sharp.
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Post by larason2 on Dec 21, 2023 16:56:47 GMT
All my katana so far (from Ronin, Jkoo, Wang2011, and Komonjo) were reasonably sharp. That is, all would catch the side of your thumb. None were shaving or paper cutting sharp. When I sharpen up to 8000 grit, or when traditinally polishing (because of the process), the sword or knife gets shaving sharp, but I wouldn't expect a production katana to be that sharp. Catching the side of my thumb is good enough for me.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I also like a european sword to be at least that sharp (catch the edge of the thumb). My cold steel Gross messer was quite dull and damaged when I got it, but it's catch thumb sharp now. My Cold steel bastard sword was catch thumb sharp when I got it second hand from a friend.
I've never had problems like a residual burr, and all my new pocket knives have come at least finger catch sharp. Most old and rusty blades I buy are dull (love the really rusty ones!).
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Nox
Member
Posts: 124
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Post by Nox on Dec 21, 2023 17:30:38 GMT
Its a production sword problem. Every Albion I have purchases over the past ten or so years has been butter knife dull, where as every lk chen I have purchased came very sharp. Its seems to be a luck of the draw thing. Are you comparing European swords to Japanese style katana? If you are, that is an apples and oranges comparison. No. The Lk chen swords I have purchased have been euro or chinese, but that's not the point I was trying to make. For me personally every Albion has come to me dull and every lk chen came with a suitable edge for cutting right away. I've had Cold steel, Hanwei and various others come sharp and dull. Those are just the two companies I could think of that for me came consistently sharp or dull/semi sharp.
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Post by toddstratton1 on Dec 21, 2023 18:01:35 GMT
Swords aren't designed to be sharp like some knives can get when being shaving sharp, because they will chip and take damage much easier that way, and it isn't necessary when cutting through targets with swords when you add in leverage, momentum, blade geometry, edge alignment etc. Albion does have their swords come duller than average, I have limited experience with purchasing Japanese swords outside of Motohara. My Motohara is a lot sharper than most my euro swords, but my suloswki custom XVI blade is as sharp as a sword could ever be without feeling too delicate.
A tad under shaving sharp, I actually don't want to cut with it for that reason and how overall thin it is in thickness of the blade itself , feels less durable. Anyways there is a good thing to all of this because then a person can decide how sharp of an edge they want to add to their swords after purchasing them, and then have it up to personal preference taking into consideration the pros and cons of each level of sharpness. And anyone cutting with their swords should learn how to sharpen them, or have someone they can go to for it relatively easily. Because you will need touch up sharpenings after doing a lot of cutting.
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Post by takitam on Dec 21, 2023 19:21:09 GMT
Will the myth of sharpness being inversely proportional to edge durability ever die? Or that chipping thing? I'm now convinced that it will not. Modern people have no idea about sharpening and edged tools. Looks like modern customers just want to believe myths.
People will keep repeating nonsense like swords needing durable edges to cut armour, like Kopciuch does. Because it's easy to make sempriniesque edges and sharp bevel transitions and call it historical (lol) and it takes plenty of time to make a great edge. Swords were sidearms and symbols, rarely used on most battlefields, and they have to be very sharp to be effective at all. (Excluding the age of plate armour when they became roasting spits) If you actually use one in a life or death situation or a duel and there is plenty of metal on metal contact, it becomes trash and is discarded. Or used to make a dagger. And you buy another one after the previous one served its purpose. If you just use it to murder people or fleeing enemies, it can serve generations. If you buy it for social gatherings, it can even end up in a museum.
I now understand why certain people, experienced in their field, tend to become disillusioned a lot. Having to explain the most basic concepts again and again is annoying. Even then, plenty of more experienced collectors tend to learn a lot more from movies and makers who advertise their shortcomings as historical accuracy, than from experimentation. People who make money nowadays from making sword replicas know nothing about how swords were used in the past and what edges they had while in service. I also know nothing about that. We will never know unless someone invents a time machine.
But it's likely that physics that determine what cuts and what doesn't hasn't changed since Middle Ages. Yet I, as a modest individual can test a few swords with different types of edges and different sharpness, on some fabric covered targets and learn. Makers, in a position to make all kinds of tests easily, will not because they prioritize making fast money. And make nonsensical claims like 'in middle ages swords were not sharp like knives because they needed to stand the rigours of battle'. It's just so much never ending bs.
I think I need to get out from this silly game.
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Post by toddstratton1 on Dec 21, 2023 19:40:40 GMT
Will the myth of sharpness being inversely proportional to edge durability ever die? Or that chipping thing? I'm now convinced that it will not. Modern people have no idea about sharpening and edged tools. Looks like modern customers just want to believe myths. People will keep repeating nonsense like swords needing durable edges to cut armour, like Kopciuch does. Because it's easy to make sempriniesque edges and sharp bevel transitions and call it historical (lol) and it takes plenty of time to make a great edge. Swords were sidearms and symbols, rarely used on most battlefields, and they have to be very sharp to be effective at all. (Excluding the age of plate armour when they became roasting spits) If you actually use one in a life or death situation or a duel and there is plenty of metal on metal contact, it becomes trash and is discarded. Or used to make a dagger. And you buy another one after the previous one served its purpose. If you just use it to murder people or fleeing enemies, it can serve generations. If you buy it for social gatherings, it can even end up in a museum. I now understand why certain people, experienced in their field, tend to become disillusioned a lot. Having to explain the most basic concepts again and again is annoying. Even then, plenty of more experienced collectors tend to learn a lot more from movies and makers who advertise their shortcomings as historical accuracy, than from experimentation. People who make money nowadays from making sword replicas know nothing about how swords were used in the past and what edges they had while in service. I also know nothing about that. We will never know unless someone invents a time machine. But it's likely that physics that determine what cuts and what doesn't hasn't changed since Middle Ages. Yet I, as a modest individual can test a few swords with different types of edges and different sharpness, on some fabric covered targets and learn. Makers, in a position to make all kinds of tests easily, will not because they prioritize making fast money. And make nonsensical claims like 'in middle ages swords were not sharp like knives because they needed to stand the rigours of battle'. It's just so much never ending bs. I think I need to get out from this silly game. I get some of your points and I certainly don't understand the deeper nuances myself, however for a modern day practioneer who is just using their swords for cutting different kinds of materials such as Tatami, Bamboo, pool noodles, cardboard, water bottles etc. The level of sharpness makes cutting certain materials easier than others, but if an edge and the blade geometry is too thin and keenly sharp, it is easier to damage when used on targets that are more abrasive and create harder impact when making contact. I.e. hitting bamboo with a sword that has a much sharper edge and thinner profiling makes that blade more likely to roll an edge or take a nick/chip with repeated use on that target, versus a sword that has the blade geometry and edge profiling that is better suited to use repeatedly on those more abrasive and harder targets that have different effects on the blade. You wouldn't notice a negative effect at all for a very sharp blade and would find the duller sword far less effective when hitting targets like vegetables , fruits, water bottles, pool noodles, and probably tatami as well. But once you put bamboo in the middle of the tatami for the cutting, or you accidentally hit a staple that wasn't removed from the mat, or let's say you use a sword to cut animal flesh including bone, that's where the different types of edge profiling and blade geometry will create a noticable difference of not taking damage as easily from cutting through those different kinds of materials. Giving the example of medieval combat of course most swords will take damage in those contexts regardless of how keen or not the sword is because they are making contact with much more abusive objects such as armor, or blade on blade impact wirh other weapon and etc. The level of abuse that places on any sword is much higher than all previously mentioned targets I mentioned for modern day cutting. Of course any sword will take noticable damage to the point of needing repair or replacement under that kind of context.
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Post by mrstabby on Dec 21, 2023 19:54:11 GMT
It's bevel angle not sharpness that makes an edge either fragile or more durable. In my experience you can get anything up to 30° a side shaving sharp, it's easier on lower angles though. You will always lose some bite when you cut something, how much depends on the edge angle.
I mostly do PET bottles, and the sharpness you need to cut them varies a lot, depending on the sword itself, the XIV needs to be much sharper than the XII for the same cut.
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Post by takitam on Dec 21, 2023 20:01:08 GMT
I get some of your points and I certainly don't understand the deeper nuances myself, however for a modern day practioneer who is just using their swords for cutting different kinds of materials such as Tatami, Bamboo, pool noodles, cardboard, water bottles etc. The level of sharpness makes cutting certain materials easier than others, but if an edge and the blade geometry is too thin and keenly sharp, it is easier to damage when used on targets that are more abrasive and create harder impact when making contact. I.e. hitting bamboo with a sword that has a much sharper edge and thinner profiling makes that blade more likely to roll an edge or take a nick/chip with repeated use on that target, versus a sword that has the blade geometry and edge profiling that is better suited to use repeatedly on those more abrasive and harder targets that have different effects on the blade. You wouldn't notice a negative effect at all for a very sharp blade and would find the duller sword far less effective when hitting targets like vegetables , fruits, water bottles, pool noodles, and probably tatami as well. But once you put bamboo in the middle of the tatami for the cutting, or you accidentally hit a staple that wasn't removed from the mat, or let's say you use a sword to cut animal flesh including bone, that's where the different types of edge profiling and blade geometry will create a noticable difference of not taking damage as easily from cutting through those different kinds of materials. Giving the example of medieval combat of course most swords will take damage in those contexts regardless of how keen or not the sword is because they are making contact with much more abusive objects such as armor, or blade on blade impact wirh other weapon and etc. The level of abuse that places on any sword is much higher than all previously mentioned targets I mentioned for modern day cutting. Of course any sword will take noticable damage to the point of needing repair or replacement under that kind of context. When you say that different edge thickness matters and influences durability and the way a blade cuts, or that different types of edges work for different applications, I cannot disagree in any way. It is simply the way things are. Your previous post, which made me rant too much, was about sharpness (and how swords aren't designed to be sharp like knives), which I understand as that final edge finish that decides whether it will cut paper or shave hair. And I know that the final sharpness has nothing to do with edge durability. I say that no matter the type of edge and it's thickness or thinness and angles and shapes (in short - geometry), it is always better for it to be as sharp as possible. Imo, chips when cutting typical modern targets are more of a sign of bad heat treatment, not thinness of the edge. An edge that rolls is much better, cause you can re-sharpen it. You can't re-sharpen a blade that chips, it can only be reground. Chips that are a result of abuse are a different matter. I know that you have a lot of swords and practice cutting. I encourage you to try to cut a target covered in an old cotton winter jacket, the closest we have to a very light gambeson, and see what effect sharpness plays on cutting. If a sword is not very sharp, it will not cut through. Even the final grit used to polish the edge matters. And this is a target that is much easier to cut than a proper historical cloth armour.
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Post by Lord Newport on Dec 21, 2023 21:17:13 GMT
Are you comparing European swords to Japanese style katana? If you are, that is an apples and oranges comparison. No. The Lk chen swords I have purchased have been euro or chinese, but that's not the point I was trying to make. For me personally every Albion has come to me dull and every lk chen came with a suitable edge for cutting right away. I've had Cold steel, Hanwei and various others come sharp and dull. Those are just the two companies I could think of that for me came consistently sharp or dull/semi sharp. As long as you are comparing Euro swords to Euro swords and katana's to katana's between manufacturers.
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Nox
Member
Posts: 124
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Post by Nox on Dec 21, 2023 22:25:01 GMT
No. The Lk chen swords I have purchased have been euro or chinese, but that's not the point I was trying to make. For me personally every Albion has come to me dull and every lk chen came with a suitable edge for cutting right away. I've had Cold steel, Hanwei and various others come sharp and dull. Those are just the two companies I could think of that for me came consistently sharp or dull/semi sharp. As long as you are comparing Euro swords to Euro swords and katana's to katana's between manufacturers. As long as? What difference does it make? A sword is a sword, It should come sharp.
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Post by Lord Newport on Dec 21, 2023 22:57:50 GMT
As long as you are comparing Euro swords to Euro swords and katana's to katana's between manufacturers. As long as? What difference does it make? A sword is a sword, It should come sharp. Really? Historically correct sharp is a relative term depending on the type of sword. I'll let the rest of the SBG crowd explain it to you and correct your ignorance of blade/edge design and sharpness between historically correct medieval European blades and the Japanese Katana
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Post by glendon on Dec 22, 2023 0:31:38 GMT
Horses for courses.
My axe can't slice paper.
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Nox
Member
Posts: 124
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Post by Nox on Dec 22, 2023 1:20:21 GMT
As long as? What difference does it make? A sword is a sword, It should come sharp. Really? Historically correct sharp is a relative term depending on the type of sword. I'll let the rest of the SBG crowd explain it to you and correct your ignorance of blade/edge design and sharpness between historically correct medieval European blades and the Japanese Katana I was never comparing the two to begin with guy. And if you are saying that a butter knife dull albion is historical then we can agree to disagree. My main point is that in production swords (especially the higher dollar ones regardless of euro or asian) can be hit or miss when it comes to sharpness. You know some of you guys really make this hobby not so fun with your high and mighty attitudes . Just saying.
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Post by toddstratton1 on Dec 22, 2023 1:56:07 GMT
I get some of your points and I certainly don't understand the deeper nuances myself, however for a modern day practioneer who is just using their swords for cutting different kinds of materials such as Tatami, Bamboo, pool noodles, cardboard, water bottles etc. The level of sharpness makes cutting certain materials easier than others, but if an edge and the blade geometry is too thin and keenly sharp, it is easier to damage when used on targets that are more abrasive and create harder impact when making contact. I.e. hitting bamboo with a sword that has a much sharper edge and thinner profiling makes that blade more likely to roll an edge or take a nick/chip with repeated use on that target, versus a sword that has the blade geometry and edge profiling that is better suited to use repeatedly on those more abrasive and harder targets that have different effects on the blade. You wouldn't notice a negative effect at all for a very sharp blade and would find the duller sword far less effective when hitting targets like vegetables , fruits, water bottles, pool noodles, and probably tatami as well. But once you put bamboo in the middle of the tatami for the cutting, or you accidentally hit a staple that wasn't removed from the mat, or let's say you use a sword to cut animal flesh including bone, that's where the different types of edge profiling and blade geometry will create a noticable difference of not taking damage as easily from cutting through those different kinds of materials. Giving the example of medieval combat of course most swords will take damage in those contexts regardless of how keen or not the sword is because they are making contact with much more abusive objects such as armor, or blade on blade impact wirh other weapon and etc. The level of abuse that places on any sword is much higher than all previously mentioned targets I mentioned for modern day cutting. Of course any sword will take noticable damage to the point of needing repair or replacement under that kind of context. When you say that different edge thickness matters and influences durability and the way a blade cuts, or that different types of edges work for different applications, I cannot disagree in any way. It is simply the way things are. Your previous post, which made me rant too much, was about sharpness (and how swords aren't designed to be sharp like knives), which I understand as that final edge finish that decides whether it will cut paper or shave hair. And I know that the final sharpness has nothing to do with edge durability. I say that no matter the type of edge and it's thickness or thinness and angles and shapes (in short - geometry), it is always better for it to be as sharp as possible. Imo, chips when cutting typical modern targets are more of a sign of bad heat treatment, not thinness of the edge. An edge that rolls is much better, cause you can re-sharpen it. You can't re-sharpen a blade that chips, it can only be reground. Chips that are a result of abuse are a different matter. I know that you have a lot of swords and practice cutting. I encourage you to try to cut a target covered in an old cotton winter jacket, the closest we have to a very light gambeson, and see what effect sharpness plays on cutting. If a sword is not very sharp, it will not cut through. Even the final grit used to polish the edge matters. And this is a target that is much easier to cut than a proper historical cloth armour. Yeah that makes sense, I'm sure cutting through thick gambeson would certainly require a much sharper sword. I also don't know about the nuances of what you are mentioning about regarding sharpness and durability being more of an issue of heat treat being better done or not. But it makes sense. I do find that some swords built thicker seem to hold up better in certain abuse testing though. But I'm sure there are other factors as you mentioned at play thats possible too. Also the steel type itself of course. I don't want to torture test my swords for more evidence on abuse tolerance of very thin versus thicker or less sharpened swords though, and don't find it needed for what I do with them, but I can take your word on it over my less knowledge. however cutting through some thick cloth would be pretty fun. I'll try it sometime soon.
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Post by mrstabby on Dec 22, 2023 9:42:17 GMT
Really? Historically correct sharp is a relative term depending on the type of sword. I'll let the rest of the SBG crowd explain it to you and correct your ignorance of blade/edge design and sharpness between historically correct medieval European blades and the Japanese Katana I was never comparing the two to begin with guy. And if you are saying that a butter knife dull albion is historical then we can agree to disagree. My main point is that in production swords (especially the higher dollar ones regardless of euro or asian) can be hit or miss when it comes to sharpness. You know some of you guys really make this hobby not so fun with your high and mighty attitudes . Just saying. Honestly, this debate always seems strange to me. I bet there were as many sharpness levels in swords as there were users, as it is today. I can see that you don't keep a razor edge on a purely thrusting sword, but even then sharpness would matter any time the sword encounters gambeson or something. As I said before, you can get any reasonable edge sharp enough to shave, so only going by "this blade looks like that and therefore must have been dull" is a bit disengenious, discounting the human factor. Glendon posted his axes don't slice paper, mine do....
Cutting meat is easy, even an edge, where you can run your hand on with some pressure cuts through an arm given enough speed, but as soon as you add fabrics you are better off with a longsword shaped razor, even when it is only for the first few strikes, and then you present the second edge for another few razor cuts. The mentality "I don't keep my blade sharp because it will dull anyway" is like saying "I am never washing myself since I am gonna stink in a few days anyway".
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Post by larason2 on Dec 22, 2023 17:47:01 GMT
Hard edges definitely chip when abused. I have a differentially hardened Japanese knife I foolishly used to gut a fish, and it chipped on the bone on the part that was hardened the thickest. So it's rare, but it does happen. All my DH katanas have a thicker edge, and probably have less brittle edges, so they are less likely to crack. But I think it's always possible for a hardened edge to crack, you just need an abuse abusive enough.
I also think a lot of the times the problem is there are so many different ideas as to what "sharp" is. On the science of sharp page, there's "sharp" vs. "keen," and both of these interact with the target differently from a physics perspective, as discussed previously. For the cutting of fabric, the micro serrations and a tearing motion are important, because the fabric has a very high ability to resist deformation, but limited ability to resist tearing. For harder targets, the incident angle of the edge is more important, because they have very limited ability to resist deformation. However, the narrower the edge angle, the more likely it is to chip, as in my knife. So sword sharpening is always a balance, with different properties depending on the physical state of the edge, and I think the intended purpose should be directing how the sword is sharpened, along with user preference.
Personally, I think whether a maker sends it sharp or not is irrelevant. If it's not how I like it, I resharpen it. For Japanese traditional polishing, if done right it always gives the sword a scary edge, so that's how all my blades will eventually end up. For someone who doesn't sharpen or polish themselves, to some extent you're at the whim of your sharpener/polisher, and you get it how they like it sharpened!
For Euro swords, I don't bother to sharpen them too much. Finger catching is enough for me. I'm sure they'll perform sharper though. They'll probably also perform duller, if the target is hard enough. My axe is finger catching sharp, not paper cutting sharp! Works great for wood and reeds.
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