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Post by davem on Nov 22, 2023 22:04:03 GMT
Hi folks, I have a sword I need help to identify. Possibly French. Looks like a custom basket with fold out section. Has some engravings on the blade. 2 marks to help I.d. it. One mark on basket (V.C or V.G?) One mark on scabbard.
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Post by puzon on Nov 23, 2023 17:47:06 GMT
Hi These photos are poor. More is needed. Interesting French sabre. Montmorency blade for light cavalry. The C&C F mark on the dial is Coulaux & Cie France. So the manufacturer is Klingethal after 1860. I have to look for VG - I saw it somewhere, maybe one of the Parisian manufacturers (where is this sign? on the guard?) Sometimes there were production cooperations - one factory made the blade and the scabbard, the other the guard. I don't know this guard ("with the button") - perhaps the officer's imagination. And they had a lot of freedom in the sabers they ordered - they paid for them themselves. More good photos. Puzon
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Post by davem on Nov 24, 2023 0:29:56 GMT
Thanks heaps puzon. I have added a pic of the location of the "V.G" mark on the guard in the original post. Look for the red circle. What other pics of the sword would help?
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Post by puzon on Nov 24, 2023 10:35:19 GMT
Hi Is that C&C F on the saber scabbard? Look for signs and inscriptions on the blade. Right next to the guard and on the back of the blade. Puzon
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Post by davem on Nov 24, 2023 12:52:31 GMT
Hi. C&C F is on the bottom of the scabbard. No marks on the back of the blade. Not sure if there was a mark on the left side of the blade near the guard or its just wear and tear? The right side of the blade has 3 distinct lines on it near the guard. Besides that there's just engravings that go about 2/3 of the way up the blade.
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Post by puzon on Nov 27, 2023 13:34:21 GMT
I sent the photos to my Polish colleague who deals with French weapons. He confirmed earlier suspicions. An individual order of an officer, perhaps not light cavalry, but line cavalry (e.g. cuirassiers, a'la "bancal" blade from 1822). A moving guard with additional branches may indicate poor fencing skills of the owner The guard folded when the saber was hanging at his side; unfolded for battle. Puzon
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Post by maxdchouinard on Nov 27, 2023 18:46:05 GMT
What a strange but beautiful animal. I must say I can't remember seeing a folding guard on a sabre post Napoleon.
The three branches on a French 1822 would usually indicate that this was meant for heavy cavalry, but the length of the blade would give more information, as this officer was clearly wanting a more covering guard and may just have asked for an extra branch.
Another unusual detail is the quillon. Quillons like these got phased out for the cavalry in 1822, making this one look more like an 1816 LC officer sabre, but the horn grip would indicate a later date. So probably just a personal preference for this fantaisie piece.
The lines you are seeing on the shoulder are not a maker mark, but vice marks. Someone played around with this one and possibly replaced the blade entirely. The multi washer assembly is awkward looking, and visibly ruins what the maker was going for, which was to create this opening for the scabbard to get into. Maybe someone tried to put the sword back together without really understanding how to do it properly, or that they used a blade that wouldn't quite fit. Could you show the peen?
The cutler's mark I do not recognize. The scabbard is indeed marked to Coulaux, but if there are no Coulaux/Klingenthal markings anywhere on the blade I would doubt that the blade and scabbard initially came together.
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Post by maxdchouinard on Nov 27, 2023 18:53:11 GMT
Sometimes there were production cooperations - one factory made the blade and the scabbard, the other the guard. That was actually the norm for officer swords. Officer sabres made entirely in one place, like Chatellerault or Klingenthal are incredibly rare. I have one 1829 in my collection that was made entirely in Châtellerault, and we know of a few cavalry officer sabres, but almost nothing for the infantry. Usually, the cutler/furbisher bought blades from the State manufacture's depot, or from some Solingen/Belgian/British exporter and had his staff build the fittings, or subcontract different parts.
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Post by davem on Nov 28, 2023 22:26:28 GMT
Thanks Max and Puzon. Blade measures 36 inches from guard to tip. I can also say its a fairly heavy sword. After 5 or 6 swings I can feel the muscle in the top of my forearm start to strain slightly. If I was an infantryman I would definitely prefer something lighter. Centre of balance is about 3 inches from the guard.
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Post by maxdchouinard on Nov 30, 2023 1:53:16 GMT
It looks to me like someone removed and repeened the blade. The depression around the peen shows signs of tampering, an the peen was hammered fairly roughly. Whether it is the original blade or not is hard to say, but it would benefit from a proper rehilting without this stack of washers. The length of the blade would indicate light cavalry use, as this is fairly regulation size for that corps. A heavy cavalry blade would be closer to 39".
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Post by davem on Dec 2, 2023 3:15:59 GMT
Thanks Max 😊
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