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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2008 10:55:57 GMT
I found a common suggestion about shirasayas in many places that they are mainly for display, not for use. That is because it is very dangerous as the hand may slip onto the blade. And many added that only yakuzas used it. I just wonder why they use this sort of swords dangerous to the users. ![???](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/huh.png)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2008 11:59:39 GMT
It is not a common suggestion it is a fact. The purpose of the shirasaya is to show off the quality of the blade without detracting from it in the slightest. The integrity of shirasaya tsuka is not fit or constructed the same way as a proper tsuka. In fact most shirasaya are sub standard and will split if used as if it were a real katana. Again shirasaya are from storing and displaying blades that show off the beauty and quality of the blade itself.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2008 12:38:08 GMT
Just wanted to add to bloodwraith's post that I've read a newly polished blade would be returned to the owner in shirasaya as the existing fittings may have dirt or grime in them which would affect the finish.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2008 16:22:36 GMT
Yes. Shirasaya is nothing else but kind of a 'blade-casing'. An 'envelope' for the blade. It is no sword mounting.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2008 16:34:35 GMT
ohh I see now, okay look a shirasaya only has wood but a normal katana's tsuka has same' which is hard and provides extra strength and the ito helps keep the two slats of the tsuka core together but a shirisaya doesn't have that. I always thought it was stupid for people to say they're dangerous, you're hand might slip onto the blade when....stabbing? Even though katanas aren't made to stab.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2008 16:47:18 GMT
Bishop, there's actually one, more likely situation in which you're going to cut yourself with a guardless sword. If you screw up a cut and hit a stand or something hard and more or less immovable the odds are that your hand / hands will most likely slip onto the blade then. I'm pretty sure the very same thing happened to one of SBG members and he got quite a nasty cut thanks to that.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2008 16:51:00 GMT
Bishop, there's actually one, more likely situation in which you're going to cut yourself with a guardless sword. If you screw up a cut and hit a stand or something hard and more or less immovable the odds are that your hand / hands will most likely slip onto the blade then. I'm pretty sure the very same thing happened to one of SBG members and he got quite a nasty cut thanks to that. I would say that's more of a factor of using too much force or not focusing, if you aren't trained and you're doing....can't think of the word, where you cut without lining up first, whatever you would call that. I've never used a shirisaya before but I wouldn't be that worried about my hand slipping onto the blade.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2008 16:59:06 GMT
I'd say that's mainly sweat on the handle and just being unlucky ( sorry, but we're just human and so to say, "semprini happens" every now and then ). I'd say it's better to not push your luck with using a shirasaya for cutting. Swords are dangerous enough the way they are. I've heard of enough accidents happening to ppl ( even ones with experience and knowledge ) to not take my chances here.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2008 7:12:16 GMT
personaly i love a sword in shirasaya, just how i am but it IS dangerous to use one like that. if your hand is sweaty and you lose your grip in mid-swing there is no telling where or what your sword will land on (or in for that matter) i'm not saying i dont do some light air practice with my favorite shirasaya but thats me , and all people are different. some people go for it and get lucky , others ...not so much, and some dont try it at all, thats the best way to make sure you dont end up hurt. in the end, i can only hope you remember what is probly the first rule when it comes to doing ANYTHING with ANY sword, SAFETY FIRST no matter what you decide to do.
ah and that yakuza thing, well in my opinion of all swords a shirasaya is easy to conceal and so some random yakuza member could carry one with ease, and also in my opinon it seems like many people think that the average yakuza member likes to be a " baddass" and whats more baddass of a weapon to carry than a nice sharp sword =)
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Post by randomnobody on Nov 11, 2008 7:21:01 GMT
I wonder if the whole sword-in-shirasaya business the yakuza stories tend to portray isn't due to the simple expense of it all... A sword blade alone is expensive enough, on top of that a half-decent set of koshirae could very well cost just as much...shirasaya is just cheaper, on top of being easier to carry around. Just not nearly as safe to use, but what do yakuza care? More often than not the blade would be for intimidation purposes only. In a case of absolute need, a shirasaya should hold out long enough to cut one or two people...at least...but is definitely not a very good idea.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2008 10:06:23 GMT
Even though katanas aren't made to stab. They wouldn't have a kissaki if they weren't meant to stab! Many JSA schools train in stabbing techniques. This test shows some impressive thrusting ability: www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=11131Here is a sword that wasn't meant to stab: ![](http://www.artfund.org/images/artworklarge.php?id=1253.jpg)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2008 10:14:43 GMT
Even though katanas aren't made to stab. They wouldn't have a kissaki if they weren't meant to stab! Many JSA schools train in stabbing techniques. This test shows some impressive thrusting ability: www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=11131Here is a sword that wasn't meant to stab: ![](http://www.artfund.org/images/artworklarge.php?id=1253.jpg) The cheness kissakis aren't made to stab, they're not designed or forged properly for it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2008 11:39:34 GMT
Could you expand on that a bit? The point you are trying to get across is not obvious to me.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2008 12:18:01 GMT
These are swords made for iaido, meaning, tsuki is not incorporated within their practices generally, especially with bottles. In short, these swords are not designed for tsuki practices, they are not tempered or shaped to the degree necessary for tsuki practices nor are stress tested for them. This is the case because modern dojos do not incorporate tsuki practices in their tameshigiri (test cutting) exercises.
that's from an email from paul chen.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2008 13:13:59 GMT
Bishop, Is this the email you are referring to: forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=84740 ? It is referring to the Kaze only... I could not find any information regarding the shaping of the kissaki but I only skimmed it this time (have read it more thoroughly previously). If not, it still seems a bit presumptuous to say tsuki is not generally in iaido practice... I have no direct experiences in the area but anyone can look on youtube and see many demos of tsuki in iaido... wrist cuts with the kissaki too... Most schools wouldn't teach cutting bottles at any rate so perhaps we can call that something outside the intended use of the cheness katana? (and yet there are videos of Paul Chen cutting bottles and a can on his website...) Earlier you mentioned that the katana is not meant to stab... there are certainly more katana around than the Kaze... I'm not sure but it seems you're trying to generalise something from an email about a budget katana (which may not be completely accurate) to a wider concept? There certainly is a reason for boshi and why it is considered a fatal flaw if there is a break that crosses into the softened area or a crack in it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2008 13:30:47 GMT
The cheness katanas are not made to stab, so says an email from paul, to me not that thread. And the katana has a point to it yeah but it's a slashing weapon, there's not that many stabbing exercises in Kenjutsu or Iaido for that matter, although I only have experience in Kenjutsu. But katana in general were designed to be ultimate cutters, not ultimate stabbers. EDIT, come to think of it I'm not sure why I brought up cheness ![:|](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/plain.png) But anyways, katanas can stab and there are exercises that use stabbing but they're not like..MADE to stab, I don't think stabbing is a very large portion of JSA so much as slashing and cutting are, unlike rapiers which are focuses on stabbing and do little in the way of cutting/slashing. That's my point.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2008 14:46:47 GMT
Shirasaya has but one purpose - store a blade while it awaits koshirae. I don't know how accurate accounts are of yakuza carrying blades in shirasaya are. I'd suspect that they are untrue.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2008 16:30:31 GMT
I don't know if others have the same problem. I can't read some posted messeges. They appear like "...undefined undefined undefined..." in red letters. However, I enjoy all those I can read.
I remember some 'realistic' samurai movies I watched. When samurais went to a duel, they tied a rough rope around their sword handle to ensure steady handling. Some even tied their right hand to the handle. So, if they have a problem of handling even with the katana, it is worse with the shirasaya. And, from movies and mangas, I saw yakuzas liked to use this method when they were to stab someone. They pressed the end of their tanto's handle against their left palm. Perhaps, that was to prevent the right hand from slipping onto the blade.
I just wonder if we should solve the problem by tying a rough rope around the shirasaya's handle :-). Or, we should as well find it a tsuka.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2008 5:50:32 GMT
There is nothing on a shirasaya's tsuka to tie the rope to. I'd just get a tsuka and tsuba. Besides historically the tsuka on a shirasaya is not meant to withstand the stresses of cutting and even thrusting. Its definitely not safe and utilizing a shirasaya to cut with is not advised.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2008 13:12:44 GMT
Yes, definitely not with shirasayas. But, it is tempting :-).
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