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Post by silvien on Nov 10, 2023 14:35:55 GMT
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Post by mrstabby on Nov 10, 2023 18:20:22 GMT
It's a nice piece, but I don't think you can really restaurate the blade, you could only stabilize the rust from eating away at it further. It's in a bad way really, but it's for sure a Javan Kris. The inlet stones do look like glass to me, that does not mean it's a tourist object though. The steel looks like it's wootz/folded steel, so there was some work put into making the blade.
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Post by treeslicer on Nov 10, 2023 19:35:56 GMT
Hi all, Today i found this Keris here at an old house clearence. In The Netherlands there are many Keris due the colonial past. I do not have much experience but as far i know its made in the Java style. Probaly made between 1900-1970 but i could be wrong.Alltough it is not a high end piece I do not think its made for tourist in general Has damage on the wooden basket but could be a decent restauration project if its worth to do it. Thank you for watching and opinions are welcome. Just glancing at this, you have a nice old authentic Sengkelat style keris showing what's probably a Kulit Semongko pamor, with Surakarta style hilt and sheath. Age is probably antique. Don't try to do anything to it until you know a lot more about them. Handle it with caution as it's probably been treated with arsenic at some time, to bring out the pattern.
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Post by silvien on Nov 10, 2023 19:40:02 GMT
Thank you,
I was under the impression that the rust on the blade wasn't too bad. As far as I can see it is not rust in the traditional form, but more the dark type of steel that was used. So should the blade actually be more bright or silver colored in your opinion.
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Post by silvien on Nov 10, 2023 19:50:57 GMT
Hi all, Today i found this Keris here at an old house clearence. In The Netherlands there are many Keris due the colonial past. I do not have much experience but as far i know its made in the Java style. Probaly made between 1900-1970 but i could be wrong.Alltough it is not a high end piece I do not think its made for tourist in general Has damage on the wooden basket but could be a decent restauration project if its worth to do it. Thank you for watching and opinions are welcome. Just glancing at this, you have a nice old authentic Sengkelat style keris showing what's probably a Kulit Semongko pamor, with Surakarta style hilt and sheath. Age is probably antique. Don't try to do anything to it until you know a lot more about them. Handle it with caution as it's probably been treated with arsenic at some time, to bring out the pattern. Thanks for the tip and determination. I'll definitely be careful. Nice to hear. What date would you give it? before 1900 perhaps
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Post by mrstabby on Nov 10, 2023 20:00:14 GMT
Rust is iron oxide, there are 2 versions of it, red and black. The black "rust" is very stable and also called blueing, you can convert red rust to black rust. So my guess is it is black because somebody already did some work to stabilize the blade. It also has a texture comparable to weathered wood, which means there is already much material missing in places. Above the grip there should be a longer protrusion, which seems to be missing also. Yeah, it should be more silvery, and not have the deep dales in the blade. Though the blades were probably not clean silver, but had some etching done to bring out the grain structure of the steel which also could look black, but would not be as deep The steel looks this way because it is a type of layered steel produced by folding and welding together small raw iron billets multiple times, where the layers will detiriorate at different speeds, therefore the wood-ish pattern. And the black means it isn't cative rust, which is good. Does not mean it will not deteriorate further without intervention, it still would need oiling or waxing. But take treeslicers warning to heart, arsenic isn't the most toxic thing, but it lingers.
EDIT: You can see many blades that look like this in museums.
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Post by treeslicer on Nov 10, 2023 20:01:50 GMT
Just glancing at this, you have a nice old authentic Sengkelat style keris showing what's probably a Kulit Semongko pamor, with Surakarta style hilt and sheath. Age is probably antique. Don't try to do anything to it until you know a lot more about them. Handle it with caution as it's probably been treated with arsenic at some time, to bring out the pattern. Thanks for the tip and determination. I'll definitely be careful. Nice to hear. What date would you give it? before 1900 perhaps Without the blade in hand, I'm only going to say colonial period, but some blades stay in circulation for a long time, and the mounts can be replaced. The wear comes from repeated annual doses of arsenic and pineapple or lemon juice, before it was collected.
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Post by mrstabby on Nov 10, 2023 20:13:16 GMT
This is one in good condition:
I didn not know they "cleaned" these yearly in acid and arsenic, thought this was only done relatively seldom. Yeah, that can lead to the deep pattern relatively quickly.
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Post by randomnobody on Nov 10, 2023 20:20:55 GMT
Rust is iron oxide, there are 2 versions of it, red and black. The black "rust" is very stable and also called blueing, you can convert red rust to black rust. So my guess is it is black because somebody already did some work to stabilize the blade. It also has a texture comparable to weathered wood, which means there is already much material missing in places. Above the grip there should be a longer protrusion, which seems to be missing also. Yeah, it should be more silvery, and not have the deep dales in the blade. Though the blades were probably not clean silver, but had some etching done to bring out the grain structure of the steel which also could look black, but would not be as deep The steel looks this way because it is a type of layered steel produced by folding and welding together small raw iron billets multiple times, where the layers will detiriorate at different speeds, therefore the wood-ish pattern. And the black means it isn't cative rust, which is good. Does not mean it will not deteriorate further without intervention, it still would need oiling or waxing. But take treeslicers warning to heart, arsenic isn't the most toxic thing, but it lingers.
EDIT: You can see many blades that look like this in museums.
I don't know if it should, necessarily, "be more silvery" as many of these are deliberately etched dark.
I bought a modern one a year or so ago and it was mostly black: This one certainly looks pretty old and definitely has lost material as a result, though.
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Post by mrstabby on Nov 10, 2023 21:08:38 GMT
Yeah, sorry, I can't sort my thoughts into the right words today. If acid has been used extensively, it can look like the weathered wood quickly, but I have a different picture in my inner eye than OP pictures show. It does not look "well loved" to me. Since it's ceremonial anyways a collector might want it. Don't restaurate it. Turining up the brightness on my monitor it does look like it has red on it, so I revise my statement, it has probalbly not been stabilized. But as mentioned, don't listen to me, I am stupid today. Might form more coherent thouhts tomorrow.
What I can say: Be careful, looks like some things could break off. Be careful of the Arsenic, though unless you lick the blade it should not hurt you, but don't touch it directly. If you want to be sure, there are arsenic tests you can do, these are 30ish$, only you know if that's worth it for you. Else you could ask around if any jeweller or pawn shop (bigger ones) have XRF equipment. These should also be able to see Ar.senic, but I am not sore how many people have these
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Post by silvien on Nov 10, 2023 22:17:01 GMT
No problem at all,
Thank you both for the effort and help on this interesting subject
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Post by silvien on Nov 16, 2023 12:03:49 GMT
I carefully cleaned the Kris with natural products such as Lemon Juice and washed it in Coconut Water/Milk as they do in Indonesia. The Kris has become beautiful in its appearance. I'm thinking of completing the waranga with the same wood instead of completely replacing it. Thank you.
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Post by randomnobody on Nov 16, 2023 12:35:00 GMT
That looks a lot better. Great job. Be sure to show us anything else you do, I'm excited to see this restored.
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Post by mrstabby on Nov 16, 2023 12:56:25 GMT
Agreed, looks healthier. What are you doing to preserve the blade?
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Post by silvien on Nov 16, 2023 13:27:12 GMT
Thank you! I took the Kris apart. The Mendak was actually only dirty, it was freshened up with warm water and baking soda. For me it doesn't have to be shiny, otherwise it won't fit in with the overall look. The blade was 2 days in a mix of coconut water/milk and 2 pieces of lemon. Gently rub with a toothbrush. Then rinsed and dried thoroughly. the hilt lightly injected with ballistol. Fortunately it was not glued together so it can be taken apart and put together in the traditional way The waranga is probably a kind of palasander wood, I am going to shape a block like this and make appropriate adjustments to the rest with natural bone glue
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Post by mrstabby on Nov 16, 2023 13:35:14 GMT
You probably should also put some oil on the blade, the creases can still have stuff in them, making rust reappearing pretty likely. Be careful with ballistol on copper/brass parts. It is slightly basic and can damage them when in contact for a longer time. (it is formulated to remove copper fouling from firearm barrels, so it will produce pitting on copper alloys over time)
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