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Post by ragebot on Nov 3, 2023 17:46:41 GMT
Currently my research puts the LK Chen NiuWei Dao as the leader but I am open to other suggestions. I am of two minds about how far the POB is out on this one but reviews seem to minimize any POB issues. Any advice welcome.
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Post by pellius on Nov 3, 2023 18:12:16 GMT
The LKC is a well built good handling sword. It is a good match in size for the average modern westerner. For me, the PoB is fine.
The hilt is about 50% longer than I would prefer (despite LKC saying it’s a one-to-one copy of an historical example). It’s not really a problem, but it’s a little awkward for some moves in some form sets.
The Hanwei with brass fittings has a similar over-long hilt, though the paracord wrap is a little slippery feeling.
Overall, imho the LKC is a very nice sword, especially for the price.
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Nov 3, 2023 18:48:17 GMT
There is a Hanwei Practical Kung Fu sword, which is pretty close in dimensions to the NiuWei, but shorter hilt. I wanted to buy it originally, but got an offer for the NiuWei I couldn't refuse. The Practical has a pretty crappy scabbard though according to reviews. The Nylon on the Hanwei Dao feels a bit slippery, but for backyard cutting it shouldn't matter much. I do prefer the cross section from the Hanwei over the LK Chen, it is wider and gives me better grip (this should be easily remedied by adding some leather underneath the wrap though; might not be an issue for everyone since I have some problems in the hands). In all I prefer the LK NiuWei Dao, especially since the Hanwei Brass furnitured Dao feels really short in comparasion. The Hanwei is a bit stiffer, probably because it's so much shorter - if this is important to you. Scabbard is pretty much identical between the two, but the brass on the Hanwei tarnishes quickly. Both can be unbelievably dull and still cut water bottles, that's why I like them. The LK is slightly harder, so will probably dull less quickly, but, my guess, not by much, all three have good spring steel. They all also should feel equally heavy/light, for the two I own I can say, exactly the same when moving, though you can feel the additional mass of the LK when you are picking it up but not when swinging it. If you want to try one of the narrow bladed Dao, which are essentially Katana copies with a chinese twist, Iron Tiger Forge has some nice ones, the LK have blocky grips, which I don't like. The Hanwei Rodell Cutting Dao is also an option, but more bare bones. The Grip wrap the Rodells (there is also a cutting Jian from them - in all I prefer the LK Chens though, I have a comparasion between the Cutting Jian and the Gale Wind posted here) have is the best I have seen so far, it's some sort of velours, very soft and grippy, but the finish on them isn't really nice. They come very roughly sanded and not really sharp. Then there are the straight bladed Dao - light and fast, less brutal cutters - LK Chen Tang Heng Dao and Palatial Dao look pretty good, but I have no hands-on experience there. They should essentially feel like a Jian, but as I said no hands-on experience. BTW Jian = straight double edged Dao = straight and curved, but single edged
There are also the chinese War Swords, Cold steel has a machete of this style for cheap, or LK Chen has the Military Da Dao. Essentially a shorter blade, very long handle for chopping only.
LK also has a few 2-Handed Dao, which would no doubt be superb cutters, but relatively heavy because of their size - Liao Dao and Zahn Ma Dao
And the biggest Katana you can buy for cheap - the Miao Dao
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Post by ragebot on Nov 3, 2023 19:29:37 GMT
There is a Hanwei Practical Kung Fu sword, which is pretty close in dimensions to the NiuWei, but shorter hilt. I wanted to buy it originally, but got an offer for the NiuWei I couldn't refuse. The Practical has a pretty crappy scabbard though according to reviews. The Nylon on the Hanwei Dao feels a bit slippery, but for backyard cutting it shouldn't matter much. I do prefer the cross section from the Hanwei over the LK Chen, it is wider and gives me better grip (this should be easily remedied by adding some leather underneath the wrap though; might not be an issue for everyone since I have some problems in the hands). In all I prefer the LK NiuWei Dao, especially since the Hanwei Brass furnitured Dao feels really short in comparasion. The Hanwei is a bit stiffer, probably because it's so much shorter - if this is important to you. Scabbard is pretty much identical between the two, but the brass on the Hanwei tarnishes quickly. Both can be unbelievably dull and still cut water bottles, that's why I like them. The LK is slightly harder, so will probably dull less quickly, but, my guess, not by much, all three have good spring steel. They all also should feel equally heavy/light, for the two I own I can say, exactly the same when moving, though you can feel the additional mass of the LK when you are picking it up but not when swinging it. If you want to try one of the narrow bladed Dao, which are essentially Katana copies with a chinese twist, Iron Tiger Forge has some nice ones, the LK have blocky grips, which I don't like. The Hanwei Rodell Cutting Dao is also an option, but more bare bones. The Grip wrap the Rodells (there is also a cutting Jian from them - in all I prefer the LK Chens though, I have a comparasion between the Cutting Jian and the Gale Wind posted here) have is the best I have seen so far, it's some sort of velours, very soft and grippy, but the finish on them isn't really nice. They come very roughly sanded and not really sharp. Then there are the straight bladed Dao - light and fast, less brutal cutters - LK Chen Tang Heng Dao and Palatial Dao look pretty good, but I have no hands-on experience there. They should essentially feel like a Jian, but as I said no hands-on experience. BTW Jian = straight double edged Dao = straight and curved, but single edged
There are also the chinese War Swords, Cold steel has a machete of this style for cheap, or LK Chen has the Military Da Dao. Essentially a shorter blade, very long handle for chopping only.
LK also has a few 2-Handed Dao, which would no doubt be superb cutters, but relatively heavy because of their size - Liao Dao and Zahn Ma Dao
And the biggest Katana you can buy for cheap - the Miao Dao
When I watched the Forged In Fire episode about the Zahn Ma Dao (Horse chopping sword) the guy who won had a blade with an obvious curve and the guy who lost had a blade with barely any curve at all. All of the FIF judges commented the curved blade had real advantages over a straight blade. The wiki page also shows the Zahn Ma Dao with a curved blade. The LK Zahn Ma Dao looks completely straight to my eye. I do have the Cold Steel All Purpose Tactical Machete but it seems very awkward for me to use when cutting and is definitely a two handed sword. In any case I am now looking for more information about the LK Ming Imperial Guard’s Chang Dao
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Nov 3, 2023 20:19:59 GMT
The LK Chen stuff consists of 1:1 copies of historical artifacts, so if their Zahn Ma is relatively straight, they copied a historical straight example. And the curve helping in cutting, well, contentious issue. Theorethically you have less contact area so more force per area of edge. Sharpness, all over blade cross section and how much force is behind the strike (or how much mass it has and how fast it moves) is more essential than curve vs straight blade. The Chang Dao is a whole other animal than the NiuWei. it has 2kg, so twice as heavy, and is only a two handed sword, like the Miao Dao but heavier.
No chance of one-handing this unless you're a superbeast of a man. You can see how heavy it is, I would not say it is good for a beginner.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Nov 4, 2023 22:40:18 GMT
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Post by ragebot on Nov 5, 2023 1:42:16 GMT
Definitely want "Light civilian fencers and cutters" with the ultimate goal of dual wielding two of them.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Nov 5, 2023 5:32:09 GMT
That would be a Niu Wei Dao (New Way Dao ), or of course any lightweight other single hand dao type, just not a heavy Dadao. I own the Hanwei Practical Broadsword/Kung Fu sword, the black hilted one, an excellent light cutter with a relative thin blade at the broad part. sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/33135With additional links
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Nov 5, 2023 9:46:45 GMT
Andi, can you tell me how thick the blade of the Kung Fu is at the tip? The Niu Wei is 1,5mm at the tip, it has the exact same taper as the brass hilted Dao, from 5,3mm to 2,3mm at the widest part and 1,5mm tip. Just curious since the KunFu seems to have less taper than the other 2. Also interested how flexible it is, Hanweis steel feels much stiffer even though it is softer in the end. Some people are dressing the NiuWei down for being too flexible, but at 2mm thickness any blade in spring steel is pretty flexible, right? BTW don't trust the measurements on the LK Chen website, every sword I have seen so far is over by a bit in weight and thickness. KoA's measurements are more accurate. I have talked to a guy who has bought the swords very early on and his seem to be spot on to the LK Chen stats, but all later versions get heavier and thicker it seems. I don't mind to be honest, they say the NiuWei is 1,4mm thick 18cm from the tip, mine is 2,35mm. In retrospect it might be the people who got an early "to spec" NiuWei complaining about stiffness issues. As far as dual wielding goes, google Shuangdao (there also existed a Jian version of this) or "chinese doubble sabers" or "Double Broad Sword", unfortunately nobody seems to produce one that's battle ready. There are also the shorter butterfly swords which are actually available. I would add a caution though, the NiuWei is not specificaly made for dual wielding, the long grip would very likel get in the way, the swords meant for this have only single handed grips, while the NiuWei is at least hand-and-a-half. I like the long grip, others hate it. A two handed blow from the NiuWei goes through bottles without you feeling anything.
The Liuye and Yanmaodao could be better for dual weilding, being lighter by almost half a pound. Though to me anything longer than like 20"/56cm is too big to be effective in dual wielding, unless it's sword+dagger.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Nov 5, 2023 10:32:12 GMT
The tip is thin and therefore a bit fragile. 1 mm at 1 cm from the tip, 2 mm at 10 cm, 3 mm at the broadest part of the forte. The blade is not over-flexible, the scabbard is well made. The only thing to complain is the very thin tip section, which can bend easily on contact with something hard. In Mandarinmansion I found a picture of an antique niuweidao with a rounded tip which obviously had the same problem before.
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Nov 5, 2023 14:01:31 GMT
Yeah, 1mm is pretty thin, but should be fine for light backyard cutting. These broad Dao are made to combat unarmored opponents in civilian life, so maximum cutting damage at cost of toughness. Not meant to stab at hard targets. Still pretty good at stabbing stuff for a curved blade! The hilt construction on the Niu Wei (2 pins+peen+glue) feels more secure than the Hanweis (pommel nut+glue). I mean it shouldn't matter for backyard cutting, just another thought.
Something I want to warn you, on both, Hanwei and the LK Chen, I had to change the scabbard a bit, since the blades contact the metal fitting when you pull the sword, if you get either make sure it does not because it will dull the blade within a few cycles. On the Hanwei the throat was too tight and I had to drill away a bit of brass, on the LK I just glued in a little piece of ash wood so the blade won't contact the Brass. The fittings on the scabbard on the LK are also brass BTW, but lacquered black. Fittings on the sword are magnetic, I think mild steel, also lacquered. The ones on the Kung Fu are blackened I think, but since the scabbard of it is open on oneside you probably won't have to do anything.
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Post by pellius on Nov 5, 2023 16:49:40 GMT
I’d agree that the niuweidao is definitely intended for thrusting as well as cutting. Its traditional manner of use tends to be hard on the sword, using it up relatively quickly. Its geometry is good for rapid civilian production but not longevity (as opposed to, say, a katana).
Not many active smiths will attempt to heat treat a thin distal-tapered blade. Apparently it’s hard to do without warping or damaging the blade. I would be interested to know how (or whether) the civilian smiths of antiquity did it.
You could certainly dual wield a pair of niuweidao. As mentioned, suangdao were explicitly built for the purpose. However, to my knowledge, dual wielding as a style is generally a Southern practice, where a pair of butterfly swords was the traditional weapon of preference.
Unlike butterfly swords, I’m not sure of the advantage of dual wielding niuweidao, though. The techniques I’m familiar with use the off hand to guard, for balance, or manipulate the sword or the opponent.
I disassembled my Hanwei oxtail a few years ago. My intent was to rewrap the grip with a braided cotton cord. The hilt was filled with epoxy, and most definitely wasn’t going to come loose without the help of a grinder.
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