|
Post by Lord Newport on Dec 30, 2023 16:20:37 GMT
One chooses to buy a HC or another custom smith's over a high end production blade not because you have to but because you want to and you can. Most all my friends in the JSA community with HC's also have high end production blades and started with low end production blades at the beginning of their JSA careers.
I have a couple of the higher end production blades of my JSA days as well as my HC's and used the high end production blades up until I got my HC's.
I suppose if you are only going to own "one" funcional sword you are actually going to use, then the high end production blade is the more practical way to go and you are better off putting the extra money you would spend on the custom blade into more training and mats to cut.
One could easily replace the Motohara /HC discussion with the GLock/HKP7 or a VW/Mercedes discussion or as pointed out above, Godzilla /King Long. They all get the job done, its just how you want to do it and what you can afford.
|
|
|
Post by toddstratton1 on Dec 30, 2023 17:14:25 GMT
One chooses to buy a HC or another custom smith's over a high end production blade not because you have to but because you want to and you can. Most all my friends in the JSA community with HC's also have high end production blades and started with low end production blades at the beginning of their JSA careers. I have a couple of the higher end blades of my JSA days as well as my HC's and used the high end production blades up until I got my HC's. I suppose if you are only going to own "one" funcional sword you are actually going to use, then the high end production blade is the more practical way to go and you are better off putting the extra money you would spend on the custom blade into more training and mats to cut. One could easily replace the Motohara /HC discussion with the GLock/HKP7 or a VW/Mercedes discussion or as pointed out above, Godzilla /King Long. They all get the job done, its just how you want to do it and what you can afford. Thanks for the input and yes that makes a lot of sense! Curious just from your experience, Do you personally notice any difference in the handling or performance with cutting on different types of mediums between the HC and those high end production blades? I'm just curious myself what the difference feels like and performs like. If both blades are built for the same kinds of targets. Or perhaps it is in the longevity of the sword, durability, and or keeping an edge longer, etc.
|
|
|
Post by wildv on Jan 1, 2024 13:03:50 GMT
So..... it's a little more complex than you are laying it out to be, though I agree overall that Motohara creates optimized cutters with a high attention to details and aesthetic, and Howard Clark creates works of art that also are incredible cutters. Shape, profile and geometry effect most of the ability of a sword to cut, the steel is more important to durability, edge retention so we can narrow the focus a bit when comparing the two steels quoted. All steel alloys have a balance of characteristics. The ones we care about most in a sword are typically toughness first and edge retention second. This is due to the longer length of the blade meaning more forces are put onto it. Traditionally, hardness is what allows for better edge retention which runs counter to toughness in most cases as steels tempered to harder Rockwells are also more brittle. This is, in a way, the origin of the clay tempering process. It let you make an edge hard enough to handle a finer edge for longer with the softer back that was tougher to impact. Tamehagane is a very poor quality steel at a base, and it requires an extensive process to make useful in a sword. Some master smiths pattern weld different steel types to predominantly make up specific portions of the sword (the sanmai, taco, reverse taco, etc). This let them keep the metal they knew would harden better towards the edge and the metal that would take a better beating, but not harden as well, to the flats and spine depending on the technique. This can get very elaborate with 7 different components being welded together. While an artifact of not being able to get good homogenous steel to work with, the technique still produced some impressive results. The quality of the sword then (and now) depended on the smith's ability to understand the nature of the steel and maximizing the desired characteristics. There is some argument that the Kozuka knives are forged with the same steel as the sword they are paired with and are used as a way to test heat treat on a small scale prior to that step on the main blade. With more modern steels, we can cheat this a bit by manipulating the types and sizes of different carbides, allowing for a higher edge retention with a higher toughness in a single steel. This makes a uniform blade without areas that could delaminate, further boosting strength. But it does make the heat treatment and tempering even more important that before. For example, Shock steel has been popular for swords for a bit (S5 and S7) due to their impact toughness and ability to survive abuse without bending (see the Matt Jensen videos about how much punishment these can take). Unfortunately, the shock steels don't harden super well (which is part of their toughness) so their edges don't last as long. S7 rates about 120 on a Charpy test while CPM3V rates about 85. For later reference, basic L6 rates about 40 while bainite (which is admittedly hard for me to find a solid value for) ends up in the same 85 range as the CPM3V. These are approximations since different hardnesses and heat treats affect it, but it gives an idea of the trade offs we are looking at for a hardened edge and a tough spine. Powder metallurgy allows you to abuse some of the characteristics of the structure of the metal, namely making smaller carbides part of the structure than would normally grow if you tried to make the same alloy composition without it. This is partly what allows the CPM 3V/M4 to retain the edge longer while remaining tough. The carbides contribute to a harder edge and better retention, but stay small due to the powder metallurgy rather than growing and making more weak points. It also apparently helps with the sharpening as the fine grain size makes the edge easier to refine, which can be a big issue with the harder Rockwell steels like the edge of a katana. Bainite is an unusual micro structure to the iron that you can get with a very careful heat treat. Its main advantage is the toughness it gets from overlapping "plate" crystals over the more "lozenge" shapes normally seen. The plates sit on one another, making it more difficult to displace them due to the increased area of contact. Much like how a pair of phonebooks with the pages overlapped take a truly absurd amount of force to pull apart even though there is no actual adhesive holding them together. Differentially hardening the L6 lets you get the benefit of the Bainite for the spine and the extra hardness of the edge. The impact toughness of Bainite approaches the same levels of the CPM 3V, but it requires particular steel compositions to form. These potential Bainite steels generally don't harden as well as others, though L6 does still have a peak hardness in the 61-63 range, above that of CPM 3V's 58-60 optimum, which is partly why it works so well for this arrangement. This also gets into the tricky part of testing though as hardness and carbides play their role, but standardizing your test for it is really difficult. Comparing raw numbers here gets a bit limited unfortunately, but I would give the edge retention advantage to CPM 3V overall. But, swords don't need to be as sharp as razors to cut. A common refrain from LK Chen is "cutting sharp" which is an edge that bites and cuts, but doesn't develop rolls and deformation. Even "dull" blades you can run a finger down gently with a good geometry can cut a tatami mat. Knives don't usually have these more complex geometries as easy re-sharpening is part of the goal for a knife. This is partly why powder metallurgy steels with their fine carbides were developed as knife steels. Ease of sharpening can as important as edge retention. Edges with niku (or apple seeding) tend to also last longer with more metal behind the edge to support it, which is the default for traditional katana. Very fine secondary bevels ("microbevel") have a similar effect, keeping a bit more metal behind the edge to support it. Though it is notable that the edge retention on L6, even hardened, is still not as good compared to even 1095 in the same geometry so will generally be assumed to fall behind CPM 3V if just looking at the effort to cut. But, as it can hit a harder Rockwell, the L6 has a slight edge in maintaining the edge's overall structure since it won't deform as easily which makes up a bit for the raw edge retention. In terms of raw properties, I would say that CPM 3V comes close to the L6 Bainite if both are properly heat treated. Both are quite shock tough and can be sharpened to a fine edge and hold it. Motohara is a company prideful in their workmanship so I would trust their heat treats on the CPM 3V, and Howard Clark is an ABS Master Smith who specialized in this particular heat treatment for the L6. The rest is honestly up to taste and investment. Both will make you the geometry you want (with a couple exceptions) as well which, as stated, has allot more influence on the effectiveness of a sword as a cutter. Interestingly, the newest hotness in the knife world is actually CPM MagnaCut which combines less toughness than 3V, though still quite high and comparable at the hardnesses we would want for a blade, with a better hardenability, edge retention, and a truly impressive corrosion resistance. The latter comes from further metallurgical magic of keeping chromium in solution in that narrow range of "just enough" to make it corrosion resistant without forming chromium carbides which end up weakening the structure of the steel significantly by vacuuming up that necessary carbon to harden (part of the reason you see the adage that stainless steels are useless as swords). I am curious how it would function at a sword length. :-) My 3V even cuts deer horn without a single scratch, try to do that with a HC bainite L6, it won’t end well… Other thing I agree, to cut tatami, any cheap sword will do, tatami with oak center….well we all know the answer to that one. "My 3V even cuts deer horn without a single scratch, try to do that with a HC bainite L6, it won’t end well." You're making a heap of negative statements based on, well nothing really? Have you cut deer horn with a Howard Clark blade? Then how can you comment on that? I'm just a bit dumbfounded here?
"Other thing I agree, to cut tatami, any cheap sword will do, tatami with oak center….well we all know the answer to that one." No. I don't know the amswer to that I've cut double rolled mats with a new shovel dowel handle with my 1045 $150 Chinese katana. If you think a real L6 can't do that, I really don't know what else to say? I'm not trying to defend HC, I really don't need to. I'm just trying to defend reality and am a bit lost where your reality lies? I understand you love Motohara, I own one it's amazing nothing to complain about. But dumping on HC cause of the price (I'm assuming your argument has to be about price as most peoples is) and no real world experience is what I'm trying to understand.
|
|
|
Post by wildv on Jan 1, 2024 13:10:48 GMT
It's a Ferrari. You pay for the name and craftmanship, not to drive it down a city street at ludicrous speed and test if it survives contact with a lamp pole. I absolutely LOVE this statement and you're spot on!
However, all the cutting I've done with my HC "driving it down a city street at ludicrous speed" sure is fun! I haven't tried to destroy it, I'm not Matt Jensen haha@! But I've botched a few cuts and hit the post many times and it doesn't even tarnish.
|
|
|
Post by captainharlock on Jan 1, 2024 16:51:39 GMT
I have both. They are completely different animals. The Howard Clark sword is a custom project and is priced accordingly. The Motohara while not as aesthetic and not as traditional in appearance is a fantastic sword and is made for practitioners. My motohara is a hard target cutter and my Howard Clark is made light and nibble but you can get the Howard Clark made however you want. They really aren’t comparable IMO. I love having both
|
|
|
Post by Lord Newport on Jan 1, 2024 17:53:38 GMT
I have both. They are completely different animals. The Howard Clark sword is a custom project and is priced accordingly. The Motohara while not as aesthetic and not as traditional in appearance is a fantastic sword and is made for practitioners. My motohara is a hard target cutter and my Howard Clark is made light and nibble but you can get the Howard Clark made however you want. They really aren’t comparable IMO. I love having both This is a great point...when you commission a HC from the man, you tell him what you want the sword to do and he will design it for that purpose. I was a JSA practitioner in a dojo that studied Mugai ryu and Toyama ryu. Tameshigiri was central to our training. We cut twice a month and sponsored several major Tai Kai's and traveled to compete in Tai Kai's in around the country and in Japan. My HC's were designed focus on grasas cutting and be similar in design/handling to my Hataya Sensei Kotetsu high end production blades.
|
|
|
Post by blairbob on Jan 3, 2024 3:58:36 GMT
not that wide, right? never heard of anyone having HC build blades like that. I'm sure he could if he wanted to.
|
|
|
Post by darknovashin on Jan 3, 2024 14:41:50 GMT
There are a handful of pictures on the internet of other geometries for Howard Blades. Generally, he also makes blades on the broader side of average in the 30mm range sakikasane from what I have been told. He is currently working on a hira zukuri blade for me that will be more of that grass cutter geometry, though I expect it won’t be any broader than that. The only ones he doesn’t do profile wise are the shapes with bo hi and sohi. The reason is two fold. First, drifting and carving those is rough to do with the Bainite. Second, Bainite allows for a thinner overall blade which negates the need for a bohi to further lighten it which he does advise about.
|
|
|
Post by Lord Newport on Jan 3, 2024 17:06:50 GMT
There are a handful of pictures on the internet of other geometries for Howard Blades. Generally, he also makes blades on the broader side of average in the 30mm range sakikasane from what I have been told. He is currently working on a hira zukuri blade for me that will be more of that grass cutter geometry, though I expect it won’t be any broader than that. The only ones he doesn’t do profile wise are the shapes with bo hi and sohi. The reason is two fold. First, drifting and carving those is rough to do with the Bainite. Second, Bainite allows for a thinner overall blade which negates the need for a bohi to further lighten it which he does advise about.This is the real benefit to the L6 Bainite blade...you get a lighter and thinner blade that is stronger and more resilient, esp with a bad cut, than traditional steel/heat treat swords. I may be wrong, it's been a long time since I ordered my HC's and talked to Howard but I don't think he does Bo-hi in his L6 blades. It is a very hard and difficult material/process to work with.
|
|
|
Post by wildv on Jan 4, 2024 12:36:25 GMT
There are a handful of pictures on the internet of other geometries for Howard Blades. Generally, he also makes blades on the broader side of average in the 30mm range sakikasane from what I have been told. He is currently working on a hira zukuri blade for me that will be more of that grass cutter geometry, though I expect it won’t be any broader than that. The only ones he doesn’t do profile wise are the shapes with bo hi and sohi. The reason is two fold. First, drifting and carving those is rough to do with the Bainite. Second, Bainite allows for a thinner overall blade which negates the need for a bohi to further lighten it which he does advise about.This is the real benefit to the L6 Bainite blade...you get a lighter and thinner blade that is stronger and more resilient, esp with a bad cut, than traditional steel/heat treat swords. I may be wrong, it's been a long time since I ordered my HC's and talked to Howard but I don't think he does Bo-hi in his L6 blades. It is a very hard and difficult material/process to work with. He doesn't do them in L6.
|
|
|
Post by mrstabby on Jan 4, 2024 13:02:50 GMT
This is the real benefit to the L6 Bainite blade...you get a lighter and thinner blade that is stronger and more resilient, esp with a bad cut, than traditional steel/heat treat swords. I may be wrong, it's been a long time since I ordered my HC's and talked to Howard but I don't think he does Bo-hi in his L6 blades. It is a very hard and difficult material/process to work with. He doesn't do them in L6. 1084, right? This might be a stupid question, but does the 1084 keep an edge better than the L6? My logic: L6 has lower carbon, only the spine/sides are bainite, but the edge still martensite, correct? So 1084 theorethically should be able to get a harder edge and hold it better. Please correct me if I am wrong anywhere, I am just really interested.
|
|
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jan 4, 2024 13:44:34 GMT
Yup, L6 has 0,7 % C, a bit less than the 0,8-0,9 % C in 1084. So you just get a "1070" martensite edge, 57 HRC typically, instead of a "1084" martensite edge, a few HRC more probably. I don't know if or how the bainite tempering process for the spine tempers this edge too.
|
|
|
Post by Lord Newport on Jan 4, 2024 15:07:15 GMT
He doesn't do them in L6. 1084, right? This might be a stupid question, but does the 1084 keep an edge better than the L6? My logic: L6 has lower carbon, only the spine/sides are bainite, but the edge still martensite, correct? So 1084 theorethically should be able to get a harder edge and hold it better. Please correct me if I am wrong anywhere, I am just really interested.
Yup, L6 has 0,7 % C, a bit less than the 0,8-0,9 % C in 1084. So you just get a "1070" martensite edge, 57 HRC typically, instead of a " 1084" martensite edge, a few HRC more probably. I don't know if or how the bainite tempering process for the spine tempers this edge too. Howard works in L6 and 1086.
|
|
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jan 4, 2024 15:09:07 GMT
Oops!
|
|
|
Post by Lancelot Chan on Jan 4, 2024 15:53:41 GMT
I don't see any powder steel can do this feat. Starting from cracked spine. His edge is 62 HRC.
Plus, I've used 3V at 61 HRC, heat treated by Peter, and sharpened to my geometry by myself, damaged in cutting my kind of target. The damage it suffered is the same as the 5160H, at 58 HRC, at the same geometry did. No difference. Just like Matthew Jensen found out in this video.
So HC is the king in this aspect. I've nothing to add or to discuss.
|
|
|
Post by Lancelot Chan on Jan 4, 2024 16:22:00 GMT
To add info on the other side, Sk3 Motohara LMC edge damage on plastic bottle cap.
|
|
|
Post by toddstratton1 on Jan 4, 2024 18:15:52 GMT
To add info on the other side, Sk3 Motohara LMC edge damage on plastic bottle cap. The light mat cutters are designed specifically for water soaked tatami mats and other soft materials only. So no surprise that a plastic bottle cap might have did some edge damage. Similar can happen if there were nails/staples that were failed to be removed from the mat before rolling.
|
|
|
Post by Lord Newport on Jan 4, 2024 18:20:52 GMT
To add info on the other side, Sk3 Motohara LMC edge damage on plastic bottle cap. The light mat cutters are designed specifically for water soaked tatami mats and other soft materials only. So no surprise that a plastic bottle cap might have did some edge damage. Similar can happen if there were nails/staples that were failed to be removed from the mat before rolling. As a practitioner I can tell you there is a significant difference between new and used tatami mats as well... Used mats take longer to soak, are harder to get thru and typically will scratch your blade with dirt and other bits of hard media embedded in them.
|
|
|
Post by toddstratton1 on Jan 4, 2024 18:48:56 GMT
The light mat cutters are designed specifically for water soaked tatami mats and other soft materials only. So no surprise that a plastic bottle cap might have did some edge damage. Similar can happen if there were nails/staples that were failed to be removed from the mat before rolling. As a practitioner I can tell you there is a significant difference between new and used tatami mats as well... True too, I believe we both train Toyama Ryu and I am under Kim sensei in the NYC school.
|
|
|
Post by Lord Newport on Jan 4, 2024 18:52:49 GMT
As a practitioner I can tell you there is a significant difference between new and used tatami mats as well... True too, I believe we both train Toyama Ryu and I am under Kim sensei in the NYC school. You are studying under one of the very best in the country. I have trained with and under "Dr." Kim Sensei as well. With him when he first started his Toyama Ryu studies and then under him at various seminars. His commitment to the art and his learning curve were amazing! I trained under "Big Tony" Alvarez Sensei at Senpokan dojo in Orange County CA.
|
|