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Post by blairbob on Dec 13, 2023 14:23:26 GMT
RVA katana. I don't know if you can swing by CASIberia and do it and same goes for KoA.
I really should have done it back in the day of Bugei though it was a long trip aways (I think I had bought my Shobu impulsively before I went to go visit [buddy had business in OC for a concert setup so I paid gas and made it a roadtrip we had to do overnight). I did get to handle a bunch of LastLegend stuff in person in the Greater Sacramento area.
I know Swordnarmory is from Socal which is pretty damn far east of LA county but maybe 30-45min from my mom's house. I was thinking about giving them a visit though I'm not very interested in the Munetoshi kats anymore.
I dunno if you can go visit Nihonzashi in Florida though it's so ridiculously far from me anyways (3000 miles).
While you're not likely to come across the smaller brands, you probably can find a lot of ColdSteel and Hanwei stuff at Renfaires though i wouldn't be surprised if there some vendor there with anime swords these days. I wonder if there would be any DragonKing stuff because they are a CAS Iberia brand.
i haven't seen a knife shop in a mall in about a decade when one was blowing out swords and going out of business.
i wouldn't be suprised if there were knife shops with swords in Nashville or Austin or Dallas.
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Post by Matthew.Jensen on Dec 13, 2023 14:54:59 GMT
It is something that only a "collector" experiences I think because they handle and get to experience more than most. It's something I think about all the time especially witnessing Mathew Jensen. He has put together more high quality custom swords than anybody but doesn't keep any. I have asked him on his stream and he says none of them once completed spoke to him when he handled them. Which is wild! Imagine spending so much money and it doesn't feel good in the end.. It is worth pointing out that my circumstances and are somewhat unique and my point might be misunderstood a bit. Most importantly, I don't recall saying that any of the projects I have done do not feel good. I really cannot think of any that were bad or did not feel good. I would imagine the vast majority of sword collectors and users would be very pleased with one. Every project I recall having made up had a sense of intention and felt good. The point I am trying to make when I say something like "it does not speak to me" is that for $10k I want something that feels just right for me. The vast majority of swords I have purchased have been from unfinished blades that were made for someone else. It is not a shock that they are not perfect for me but I still have a lot of fun getting them finished and matching that sword to someone it is perfect for. Also, when I buy it as a bare blade, I am not sure how it is going to turn out. I can get some idea when it is a bare blade but until it is all done, it is hard to tell. If a person where to commission a blade from Howard, they could specify a lot of the details and he gets very close from my understanding. It is a lot more likely that you could get something that feels just right. Hopefully the videos I make give you some idea of what is possible with a project. There is always a risk you will not like what you get at the other end of a project but I think it is a lot less likely if you are not a weirdo producing content on YouTube and/or commission everything bespoke to you. Hopefully that makes sense As for the original question here. I own multiples of both. Have also handled some other examples of both from past collection or from dojo friends. It is hard to go wrong with either one if you are looking for a practice tool. With Howard you get a blade from him and to some folks, the trust in the person goes a long way. He has been at it a long time and can make a blade outside the norm of what a katana typically is. Smaller, larger, wider, ect.. Evolution blades can do some cool stuff too but the examples I have seen fall in line with what seems to be their mission. They are making the best tools out there for a JSA practitioner. It is a one stop shop to get something done at a very high level that will be a joy to train/cut with. They might be able to do some different custom work too. You can kinda do both if you want, Howard tends to make bare blades and habaki. You could send that to Evolution Blades to finish. They do an excellent job at mounting other peoples stuff too. In performance it will depend on the blades you are comparing. Both are or at least can be very effective at whatever task you have. If the blade is designed for the task at least. They are both well made and reliable. Both are pricy. So what is the difference? Assuming either could make you the blade stile you want there are a few points. Price - Howard usually starts at 5k for a bare blade, it can easily be another 5k to finish. Can be less but you could also be 10k+. Evo starts at 3k and tops out around 8k-10k for a finished blade. Hassle - Evo blades, you work with Jason who is a good guy that has a solid track record of good service. Howard has good service too but you will need to work with other craftsmen to have the project finished. They may add time or hassle to the experience. One of the reasons I get so many blades second hand is that people give up on finishing them. Could be cost or hassle related. By the time their spot comes up in queue, they have moved onto another hobby. Uniqueness - You will probably end up with something more unique with a Clark blade. At least you can. Working with so many hands, you end up with something that stands out to decerning eyes. Evolution blades has a style of finish work, there are not many out there but if you had all the evo blades ever made on one rack and all the clark blades ever made on another, the clark blades would probably show more variety. This is not really a positive or negatives thing, just worth noting. Name - Howard is a bladesmith, Evolution Blades is a company. Having a clark blade is a little like a modern version of having a smith of note make your sword historically. At least it feels that way to me. He has a reputation for making durable refined blades that last. They have personality and makes them identifiable next to other blades. He is also an artist and you can admire his other works in swords or knives and know that your blade was crafted by the same hand. It is intangible stuff that might not matter to you. Evolution blades are special too but in a different way. They may be made by a smith with as much history and skill as Howard but I don't get to see that in the process of buying one. Jason is great to work with and Evo blades make excellent stuff but I don't get the same feeling holding one. I feel like my Evolution blades are replaceable, if I bend or break one, I can work with Jason to get another excellent blade that will be 95% the same and the other 5% will be better because they keep improving. If I break my clark, I don't think its gone. The process to make it is too hard to repeat. Even if Howard could make one the same size, it would still probably feel different or at least it would feel different to me. 2nd hand - if you buy one second hand (as I often do) Evo blades have a very consistent finished quality. It could be abused and broken but you know it started off great. With a clark blade, you know the blade is good and everything else can be a mystery. Sometimes folks really skimp out on famishing them and the whole mount is needs to be redone. Not because of abuse but because it was never good to begin with. Howards work from any point is his career is good, but the other parts of the sword will require more scrutiny. You cannot take for granted that it was great when it started. For what it is worth, I don't think you can go wrong with either of them. I love both.
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Post by larason2 on Dec 13, 2023 17:54:49 GMT
Now that I've hand carved a tsuka, I can tell you that hand carving it really makes a difference to the finished feel of a sword. This is in addition to the feel of the blade. The weight and size of the tsuba also have an effect. Without a tsuba, a Japanese blade feels odd, unbalanced. The tsuka I carved looks a bit odd, but it feels just right in my bigger than average hands. I feel like Motohara, even though they are a high end maker, will still always feel a bit the same. If that's just right, then go for it. But if you can have everything custom made, it's going to be a different experience. The price for that is greater, but I think that's the decision - what's the budget, and given what you have, what kind of blade do you want to end up with?
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Post by izzy on Dec 13, 2023 18:22:14 GMT
I have been very lucky recently and have an example of both options. At some point, I will get around to taking them out of their fittings and taking measures, but I think it's all been listed out well here so far. Howard Clark is a master of his craft. He will create you a sword on par with or above any other modern smiths and that's before taking into account his use of Bainite in his blades. There are examples and reviews of his blades online but the one that stands out most to me is one from Alientude (who commented above) reviewing a Howard Clark katana used as a dojo blade for competition cutting for years that is still completely straight and has needed minimal touch ups to the polish and sharpen. The shear number of swings that blade has taken at mats without failing is incredible, doubly considering the varying levels of skill used. However, the differential hardening process is rough on the metal (he has quoted a 66% chance of failure previously) and so you are paying a premium for it. Nowadays, he generally will only make a blade in a forge polish which will need polishing and fitting before it's ready to use, but there are a couple older examples where he did the entire set of fittings including one I think still on the classified page. Only a couple modern polishers are familiar with the Bainite blades and know how to maximize their beauty and sharpness as it's a tough steel to work with due in part to the durability. Ted Tenold, Josiah Boomershine, John DeMasa, and now Motohara are the ones I have seen recommended. The fittings will vary between craftsmen so that can be above, below or on par with a Motohara katana depending on your desires, but the polish is an extremely important part of both looks and function so it can't be underestimated. Motohara or Evolution Blades is run by Jason Yoon who is, if I remember correctly, a practitioner of Toyama Ryu and his pride as a swordsman shines through in the company's work. I purchased a reservation on a blade from this forum and expected to just live with the previous customer's decisions, but Jason reached out directly and worked with me to get a weapon that would be better fit and functional for me. This included arranging for a new blade and finding a separate use for the reserved blade that was already forged, something I did not expect and likely required him soaking additional costs. Having received the final piece, I am very happy with the result. They work in multiple modern tool and knife steels that can provide all the durability and function you can hope for as well as having custom blade curvatures, cross-sections, and sharpening to optimize it further for your uses. While they are closer to a production blade than one from Howard Clark, much like Albion, they are very good at what they do and provide many of the same customizations and tweaks you would get from sitting down with the craftsmen directly. I am lucky to have 2 Howard Clark blades (one mounted and polished by Josiah and one by Fred Lohman I think), a third being polished/mounted by Josiah, and a 4th in Howard's queue after a number of years of saving up and recently received my first Motohara as mentioned. I think that 4th blade and the one I have in hand mounted by Lohman will be going to Motohara for mounting given my experience with Jason and the resulting katana. For me, I think this is the best of both worlds, and Howard Clark has sent his own blades to him for restoration and fitting which is as good of a vote of confidence as one can hope for. Please elaborate on the 66% failure rate? That sounds very high, does HC do both TH and DH? Is it only DH that has that issue?
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Post by mrstabby on Dec 13, 2023 18:30:37 GMT
The heat treat process to get bainite out of L6 is hard, and only one out of 3 blades survive without cracking (I think at the beginning it was one in 5 if I remember correctly, there is a video, will add when I find. EDIT: I thought I read L6, sorry. But even on normal differential hardening the failure rate is quite high and Howard is a perfectionist. He probably tests the DH blades hard before finishing and sending out, hightening failure rates.
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Post by larason2 on Dec 13, 2023 23:01:47 GMT
It's pretty similar for a Japanese smith as well. Towards the end of their careers, it's rare for a Japanese smith to crack a blade, but it's 2/3 on the road there. The problem is that steam sometimes insulates the blade from cooling down, sometimes not. If you get a spot where really hot metal is close to relatively cool metal, and there's a fault there in the weld, it will crack. Oil transfers heat much more quickly and evenly, so that's why most Chinese smiths only oil quench.
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Post by darknovashin on Dec 13, 2023 23:09:47 GMT
So, the trick to make Bainite is an extended tempering process at a fixed temp to allow for the plate-shaped crystalline Ferrite/Cementite to form and grow. The typical DH occurs by using a material like clay to protect (read insulate) a portion of a blade then placing it in a cooling medium like oil or water so one part cools fast and the other cools slightly slower, trapping carbon in specific structures for the edge and spine. These are, while not antithetical, really, really hard to manage on the same piece of metal. While the exact process isn't known, I have seen a number of folks speculate that he uses a coolant system to keep the Bainite spine cool while doing the edge quench for hardness. Alternatively, he could be doing the DH then keeping the edge cooled while taking the spine up to the necessary temps to create the Bainite. Either way, that's allot of stress on the metal, much in excess of the typical DH processes on a sword, which are still quite rough since the 2 types of steel structure you are after have slight volume differences which push against each other as they resettle. As mrstabby mentioned, DH is a fairly high failure process then adding the Bainite tempering adds a whole new layer of complexity.
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Post by toddstratton1 on Dec 14, 2023 6:57:28 GMT
bluetruefu Matthew Jensen already made a fantastic response that answered many questions, as for myself and handling different japanese swords alongside albions, to me the feeling of a blade being more alive just feels like having good overall handling and balance which lines up with what I personally enjoy. I've handled many albion swords and some Angus trim swords for various models, each of them feel different in the weight, length, center of balance, how they move and feel in the hand, types of pommel and crossguard, etc. Some were light and felt like an extension of my arm due to a closer POB, some were heavier with a further pob which caused them to feel less nimble, harder to stop in mid cut, but with more authority in the cut, some were light but also further POB which felt unique. And many other combinations are possible generally speaking though high end swords like Albion and Angus trim all feel like they are handling as they should for their intended purpose, rather than getting a sharpened piece of overbuilt crowbar like some junkie sword manufacture create. Now as it pertains to being the same sword model but also feeling a bit different I have experienced that as well, having multiple Crecies I have owned each felt a bit different from each other because swords even production ones aren't all built as carbon copies of each other, there will be variations of weight and a bit of POB and etc between some depending how it was sharpened and other factors. I am going on about European swords too much in a Japanese sword thread though, so to circle back I have also felt similar experiences with different Katana as well. Having handled quite a few Motohara from Jason Yoon and a couple of my other class mates at my JSA school. Each was purpose built for different things and felt quite unique from each other in different ways. Some were heavier and more tip heavy, others were lighter and almost felt like swinging something thar just moved effortlessly, however those lighter swords sometimes might struggle to do hard target cutting or cutting through multiple mats at once and etc. Sometimes. The one I had custom made for myself I really love because it's got a 32 inch nagasa not including the habaki length additionally, and a lot of distal taper and a bohi that really helps to balance everything well. However it is noticeably heavier than some of my other classmates swords, but not by much compared to my average European swords, and still perfect within what my wants and needs are for it. I have handled some other production line katanas as well from various manufacturers like cloudhammer, and I had the privilege of also handling some really nice Nihonto, one worth over 10s of thousands. Still all in all, I would say at a certain level of professional made sword, they should all feel like how a sword will for its intended purpose , and not terribly balanced, overbuilt, or flimsy like some cheap swords will tend to have issues with. But each will handle and feel different based on what that swords design and purpose was meant to be. Some will be prettier and made with aesthetics also in mind, others will be more on purely function. But with a certain level of professional craftsmanship, they should all do the job they were designed to fairly well. But a very high end sword might still not feel right for one individual, for previous mentioned reasons, not being the type of sword they prefer. Beyond the balance and weight and general handling we get into how well it cuts and its durability. Which all fall back to being how well it was made to meet those tasks without failure and to perform at a great level, and hopefully without being to damage prone. The rest of things besides the blade will come down to the fittings, wrap, tsuka style etc. Which is just someone's personal preference for design, and if well made it should all be very tight and not loose or woobly, and not easily undone through lots of training. So that's my over explained thoughts right now on it all lol
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Post by eastman on Dec 15, 2023 1:43:51 GMT
RVA katana. I don't know if you can swing by CASIberia and do it and same goes for KoA...
Unless things have changed recently at KoA, you could do a will call pick-up at their location, but there isn't any type of showroom to see / handle the products.
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Post by bluetruefu on Dec 22, 2023 10:01:43 GMT
It is something that only a "collector" experiences I think because they handle and get to experience more than most. It's something I think about all the time especially witnessing Mathew Jensen. He has put together more high quality custom swords than anybody but doesn't keep any. I have asked him on his stream and he says none of them once completed spoke to him when he handled them. Which is wild! Imagine spending so much money and it doesn't feel good in the end.. It is worth pointing out that my circumstances and are somewhat unique and my point might be misunderstood a bit. Most importantly, I don't recall saying that any of the projects I have done do not feel good. I really cannot think of any that were bad or did not feel good. I would imagine the vast majority of sword collectors and users would be very pleased with one. Every project I recall having made up had a sense of intention and felt good. The point I am trying to make when I say something like "it does not speak to me" is that for $10k I want something that feels just right for me. Yes, I never meant to suggest that you said none felt good. My last sentence wasn't supposed to be attached to me mentioning your specific experience but I was just adding on to the subject of how it was possible to spend that much and the project could not feel good.. which would be a nightmare... I was only trying to say exactly what you said here, that those projects didn't feel just right for you. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
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Post by tekaefixe on Dec 26, 2023 15:10:12 GMT
Clearly you don’t much about powder metallurgy. A HC blade is wonderful for a manual process but compared to a top Motohara (CPM-3V/M4) industrial blade as a cutting tool they don’t compare. It’s just science, vanadium makes a crazy difference so does other more industrial processes involved in the production of powered steel swords. Again for cutting, regardless of the material top Motoharas are the best, for cultural, artistic value the HC is superior. I prefer the superior cutting tool, for art I can go to the Louvre.
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Post by darknovashin on Dec 28, 2023 21:31:38 GMT
So..... it's a little more complex than you are laying it out to be, though I agree overall that Motohara creates optimized cutters with a high attention to details and aesthetic, and Howard Clark creates works of art that also are incredible cutters. Shape, profile and geometry effect most of the ability of a sword to cut, the steel is more important to durability, edge retention so we can narrow the focus a bit when comparing the two steels quoted.
All steel alloys have a balance of characteristics. The ones we care about most in a sword are typically toughness first and edge retention second. This is due to the longer length of the blade meaning more forces are put onto it. Traditionally, hardness is what allows for better edge retention which runs counter to toughness in most cases as steels tempered to harder Rockwells are also more brittle. This is, in a way, the origin of the clay tempering process. It let you make an edge hard enough to handle a finer edge for longer with the softer back that was tougher to impact.
Tamehagane is a very poor quality steel at a base, and it requires an extensive process to make useful in a sword. Some master smiths pattern weld different steel types to predominantly make up specific portions of the sword (the sanmai, taco, reverse taco, etc). This let them keep the metal they knew would harden better towards the edge and the metal that would take a better beating, but not harden as well, to the flats and spine depending on the technique. This can get very elaborate with 7 different components being welded together. While an artifact of not being able to get good homogenous steel to work with, the technique still produced some impressive results. The quality of the sword then (and now) depended on the smith's ability to understand the nature of the steel and maximizing the desired characteristics. There is some argument that the Kozuka knives are forged with the same steel as the sword they are paired with and are used as a way to test heat treat on a small scale prior to that step on the main blade.
With more modern steels, we can cheat this a bit by manipulating the types and sizes of different carbides, allowing for a higher edge retention with a higher toughness in a single steel. This makes a uniform blade without areas that could delaminate, further boosting strength. But it does make the heat treatment and tempering even more important that before. For example, Shock steel has been popular for swords for a bit (S5 and S7) due to their impact toughness and ability to survive abuse without bending (see the Matt Jensen videos about how much punishment these can take). Unfortunately, the shock steels don't harden super well (which is part of their toughness) so their edges don't last as long. S7 rates about 120 on a Charpy test while CPM3V rates about 85. For later reference, basic L6 rates about 40 while bainite (which is admittedly hard for me to find a solid value for) ends up in the same 85 range as the CPM3V. These are approximations since different hardnesses and heat treats affect it, but it gives an idea of the trade offs we are looking at for a hardened edge and a tough spine.
Powder metallurgy allows you to abuse some of the characteristics of the structure of the metal, namely making smaller carbides part of the structure than would normally grow if you tried to make the same alloy composition without it. This is partly what allows the CPM 3V/M4 to retain the edge longer while remaining tough. The carbides contribute to a harder edge and better retention, but stay small due to the powder metallurgy rather than growing and making more weak points. It also apparently helps with the sharpening as the fine grain size makes the edge easier to refine, which can be a big issue with the harder Rockwell steels like the edge of a katana.
Bainite is an unusual micro structure to the iron that you can get with a very careful heat treat. Its main advantage is the toughness it gets from overlapping "plate" crystals over the more "lozenge" shapes normally seen. The plates sit on one another, making it more difficult to displace them due to the increased area of contact. Much like how a pair of phonebooks with the pages overlapped take a truly absurd amount of force to pull apart even though there is no actual adhesive holding them together. Differentially hardening the L6 lets you get the benefit of the Bainite for the spine and the extra hardness of the edge. The impact toughness of Bainite approaches the same levels of the CPM 3V, but it requires particular steel compositions to form. These potential Bainite steels generally don't harden as well as others, though L6 does still have a peak hardness in the 61-63 range, above that of CPM 3V's 58-60 optimum, which is partly why it works so well for this arrangement. This also gets into the tricky part of testing though as hardness and carbides play their role, but standardizing your test for it is really difficult. Comparing raw numbers here gets a bit limited unfortunately, but I would give the edge retention advantage to CPM 3V overall.
But, swords don't need to be as sharp as razors to cut. A common refrain from LK Chen is "cutting sharp" which is an edge that bites and cuts, but doesn't develop rolls and deformation. Even "dull" blades you can run a finger down gently with a good geometry can cut a tatami mat. Knives don't usually have these more complex geometries as easy re-sharpening is part of the goal for a knife. This is partly why powder metallurgy steels with their fine carbides were developed as knife steels. Ease of sharpening can as important as edge retention. Edges with niku (or apple seeding) tend to also last longer with more metal behind the edge to support it, which is the default for traditional katana. Very fine secondary bevels ("microbevel") have a similar effect, keeping a bit more metal behind the edge to support it. Though it is notable that the edge retention on L6, even hardened, is still not as good compared to even 1095 in the same geometry so will generally be assumed to fall behind CPM 3V if just looking at the effort to cut. But, as it can hit a harder Rockwell, the L6 has a slight edge in maintaining the edge's overall structure since it won't deform as easily which makes up a bit for the raw edge retention.
In terms of raw properties, I would say that CPM 3V comes close to the L6 Bainite if both are properly heat treated. Both are quite shock tough and can be sharpened to a fine edge and hold it. Motohara is a company prideful in their workmanship so I would trust their heat treats on the CPM 3V, and Howard Clark is an ABS Master Smith who specialized in this particular heat treatment for the L6. The rest is honestly up to taste and investment. Both will make you the geometry you want (with a couple exceptions) as well which, as stated, has allot more influence on the effectiveness of a sword as a cutter.
Interestingly, the newest hotness in the knife world is actually CPM MagnaCut which combines less toughness than 3V, though still quite high and comparable at the hardnesses we would want for a blade, with a better hardenability, edge retention, and a truly impressive corrosion resistance. The latter comes from further metallurgical magic of keeping chromium in solution in that narrow range of "just enough" to make it corrosion resistant without forming chromium carbides which end up weakening the structure of the steel significantly by vacuuming up that necessary carbon to harden (part of the reason you see the adage that stainless steels are useless as swords). I am curious how it would function at a sword length. :-)
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Post by wildv on Dec 29, 2023 14:52:45 GMT
Clearly you don’t much about powder metallurgy. A HC blade is wonderful for a manual process but compared to a top Motohara (CPM-3V/M4) industrial blade as a cutting tool they don’t compare. It’s just science, vanadium makes a crazy difference so does other more industrial processes involved in the production of powered steel swords. Again for cutting, regardless of the material top Motoharas are the best, for cultural, artistic value the HC is superior. I prefer the superior cutting tool, for art I can go to the Louvre. No, I'm sorry but this is just so wrong. If you had extensively cut with both these swords then you could add something to the discussion here, but the fact is that true L6 Bainite has hardly been tested scientifically because in the real world it's very difficult to get the real stuff. In the world we all live in currently, something being 80% good and cheap is WAY better than something being 99% good and so expensive it can't even be wrecked for scientific testing.
If you want art, buy a Nihonto. For cutting, a $150 sword will do almost as good as a Motohara. If that "almost" bothers you, then we're talking about big cost with small difference in performance output.
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Post by wildv on Dec 29, 2023 14:57:51 GMT
So..... it's a little more complex than you are laying it out to be, though I agree overall that Motohara creates optimized cutters with a high attention to details and aesthetic, and Howard Clark creates works of art that also are incredible cutters. Shape, profile and geometry effect most of the ability of a sword to cut, the steel is more important to durability, edge retention so we can narrow the focus a bit when comparing the two steels quoted. All steel alloys have a balance of characteristics. The ones we care about most in a sword are typically toughness first and edge retention second. This is due to the longer length of the blade meaning more forces are put onto it. Traditionally, hardness is what allows for better edge retention which runs counter to toughness in most cases as steels tempered to harder Rockwells are also more brittle. This is, in a way, the origin of the clay tempering process. It let you make an edge hard enough to handle a finer edge for longer with the softer back that was tougher to impact. Tamehagane is a very poor quality steel at a base, and it requires an extensive process to make useful in a sword. Some master smiths pattern weld different steel types to predominantly make up specific portions of the sword (the sanmai, taco, reverse taco, etc). This let them keep the metal they knew would harden better towards the edge and the metal that would take a better beating, but not harden as well, to the flats and spine depending on the technique. This can get very elaborate with 7 different components being welded together. While an artifact of not being able to get good homogenous steel to work with, the technique still produced some impressive results. The quality of the sword then (and now) depended on the smith's ability to understand the nature of the steel and maximizing the desired characteristics. There is some argument that the Kozuka knives are forged with the same steel as the sword they are paired with and are used as a way to test heat treat on a small scale prior to that step on the main blade. With more modern steels, we can cheat this a bit by manipulating the types and sizes of different carbides, allowing for a higher edge retention with a higher toughness in a single steel. This makes a uniform blade without areas that could delaminate, further boosting strength. But it does make the heat treatment and tempering even more important that before. For example, Shock steel has been popular for swords for a bit (S5 and S7) due to their impact toughness and ability to survive abuse without bending (see the Matt Jensen videos about how much punishment these can take). Unfortunately, the shock steels don't harden super well (which is part of their toughness) so their edges don't last as long. S7 rates about 120 on a Charpy test while CPM3V rates about 85. For later reference, basic L6 rates about 40 while bainite (which is admittedly hard for me to find a solid value for) ends up in the same 85 range as the CPM3V. These are approximations since different hardnesses and heat treats affect it, but it gives an idea of the trade offs we are looking at for a hardened edge and a tough spine. Powder metallurgy allows you to abuse some of the characteristics of the structure of the metal, namely making smaller carbides part of the structure than would normally grow if you tried to make the same alloy composition without it. This is partly what allows the CPM 3V/M4 to retain the edge longer while remaining tough. The carbides contribute to a harder edge and better retention, but stay small due to the powder metallurgy rather than growing and making more weak points. It also apparently helps with the sharpening as the fine grain size makes the edge easier to refine, which can be a big issue with the harder Rockwell steels like the edge of a katana. Bainite is an unusual micro structure to the iron that you can get with a very careful heat treat. Its main advantage is the toughness it gets from overlapping "plate" crystals over the more "lozenge" shapes normally seen. The plates sit on one another, making it more difficult to displace them due to the increased area of contact. Much like how a pair of phonebooks with the pages overlapped take a truly absurd amount of force to pull apart even though there is no actual adhesive holding them together. Differentially hardening the L6 lets you get the benefit of the Bainite for the spine and the extra hardness of the edge. The impact toughness of Bainite approaches the same levels of the CPM 3V, but it requires particular steel compositions to form. These potential Bainite steels generally don't harden as well as others, though L6 does still have a peak hardness in the 61-63 range, above that of CPM 3V's 58-60 optimum, which is partly why it works so well for this arrangement. This also gets into the tricky part of testing though as hardness and carbides play their role, but standardizing your test for it is really difficult. Comparing raw numbers here gets a bit limited unfortunately, but I would give the edge retention advantage to CPM 3V overall. But, swords don't need to be as sharp as razors to cut. A common refrain from LK Chen is "cutting sharp" which is an edge that bites and cuts, but doesn't develop rolls and deformation. Even "dull" blades you can run a finger down gently with a good geometry can cut a tatami mat. Knives don't usually have these more complex geometries as easy re-sharpening is part of the goal for a knife. This is partly why powder metallurgy steels with their fine carbides were developed as knife steels. Ease of sharpening can as important as edge retention. Edges with niku (or apple seeding) tend to also last longer with more metal behind the edge to support it, which is the default for traditional katana. Very fine secondary bevels ("microbevel") have a similar effect, keeping a bit more metal behind the edge to support it. Though it is notable that the edge retention on L6, even hardened, is still not as good compared to even 1095 in the same geometry so will generally be assumed to fall behind CPM 3V if just looking at the effort to cut. But, as it can hit a harder Rockwell, the L6 has a slight edge in maintaining the edge's overall structure since it won't deform as easily which makes up a bit for the raw edge retention. In terms of raw properties, I would say that CPM 3V comes close to the L6 Bainite if both are properly heat treated. Both are quite shock tough and can be sharpened to a fine edge and hold it. Motohara is a company prideful in their workmanship so I would trust their heat treats on the CPM 3V, and Howard Clark is an ABS Master Smith who specialized in this particular heat treatment for the L6. The rest is honestly up to taste and investment. Both will make you the geometry you want (with a couple exceptions) as well which, as stated, has allot more influence on the effectiveness of a sword as a cutter. Interestingly, the newest hotness in the knife world is actually CPM MagnaCut which combines less toughness than 3V, though still quite high and comparable at the hardnesses we would want for a blade, with a better hardenability, edge retention, and a truly impressive corrosion resistance. The latter comes from further metallurgical magic of keeping chromium in solution in that narrow range of "just enough" to make it corrosion resistant without forming chromium carbides which end up weakening the structure of the steel significantly by vacuuming up that necessary carbon to harden (part of the reason you see the adage that stainless steels are useless as swords). I am curious how it would function at a sword length. :-) A great write up and very true I wish this could be "stickied" if this forum has that option? I wouldn't bother going to such effort as I understand a lot of this is "my sword is better than yours" which is fine. I get it and have been there myself. If you been lucky to own, handle and use some of the blades we have talked about here, you already know and don't need to prove anything or fight a point. The argument always comes down to price really. HC is not something most people will ever be able to own. But I always like to remind people that a $150 sword will cut 80% as well as both these swords that we have been talking about.
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Post by larason2 on Dec 29, 2023 19:35:16 GMT
I think WildV has a good point. Bainite has a great reputation based on some solid science but very little evidence. If I had one, I also wouldn't want to sacrifice it for testing! Motohara does a good job, but they are not really a "full custom" blade, and their blades are still $500 Chinese blades, lets face it. The rest of the money goes to upgraded koshirae. Nothing wrong with either purchase, but it's a bit comparing apples to oranges. If you just want to cut stuff, a through hardened carbon steel blade with stock Chinese koshirae does very well. The rest I think is for aesthetics. There's different aesthetic preferences, and there's different budgets!
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Post by mrstabby on Dec 29, 2023 19:56:55 GMT
There are a few bainite tests for knives out there. BTW comparing bainite to CPM-3V isn't really a good comparasion, since you could also induce bainite in 3V, bainite is more a specific spot you need to hit in heat treatment. Though the truth is, as mentioned, does it even matter when you won't torture test the sword anyways? Could just as well be a good 5160 for cutting bottles and tatami and you'll never know. Or even 1045 if you never use it.... It's a Ferrari. You pay for the name and craftmanship, not to drive it down a city street at ludicrous speed and test if it survives contact with a lamp pole.
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Post by toddstratton1 on Dec 29, 2023 20:52:23 GMT
I think WildV has a good point. Bainite has a great reputation based on some solid science but very little evidence. If I had one, I also wouldn't want to sacrifice it for testing! Motohara does a good job, but they are not really a "full custom" blade, and their blades are still $500 Chinese blades, lets face it. The rest of the money goes to upgraded koshirae. Nothing wrong with either purchase, but it's a bit comparing apples to oranges. If you just want to cut stuff, a through hardened carbon steel blade with stock Chinese koshirae does very well. The rest I think is for aesthetics. There's different aesthetic preferences, and there's different budgets! Don't mean to sidetrack the very interesting dialog already going on, but what gives you the impression Motohara Katana use 500 dollar Chinese blades? The swords themselves are smithed in Korea with steel that is imported into Korea from other sources. It's not a cheap production blade like something from a longquan forge in China, although I habe nothing against those swords and some of them are quite useful for training and cutting, but they are not the same as Motoharas.
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Post by larason2 on Dec 29, 2023 22:56:22 GMT
The truth is that the $500 Chinese blades we get of Chinese "tamahagane" are actually top quality blades. It's actually pretty amazing we can get such a good blade so cheap. I don't know any other time period in history that such a good blade was comparatively so cheap. I've never seen a Korean one in the flesh, but I don't think anything forged in Korea is of any superior quality. Outside of Japan, and unless they are made of real tamahagane or something else that's special (L6), or used straw ash for welding, you probably can't get any better blades
So it's really not an insult to say the Korean blades are likely equivalent to the $500 Chinese blades. This is actually the high water mark from most blades smithed in the world. I wouldn't pay any more for one though, because you're not getting anything better in the steel. Paying more for L6, straw ash welding, or real tamahagane makes sense to me, but not for any other metal or forging type.
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Post by tekaefixe on Dec 30, 2023 4:29:46 GMT
So..... it's a little more complex than you are laying it out to be, though I agree overall that Motohara creates optimized cutters with a high attention to details and aesthetic, and Howard Clark creates works of art that also are incredible cutters. Shape, profile and geometry effect most of the ability of a sword to cut, the steel is more important to durability, edge retention so we can narrow the focus a bit when comparing the two steels quoted. All steel alloys have a balance of characteristics. The ones we care about most in a sword are typically toughness first and edge retention second. This is due to the longer length of the blade meaning more forces are put onto it. Traditionally, hardness is what allows for better edge retention which runs counter to toughness in most cases as steels tempered to harder Rockwells are also more brittle. This is, in a way, the origin of the clay tempering process. It let you make an edge hard enough to handle a finer edge for longer with the softer back that was tougher to impact. Tamehagane is a very poor quality steel at a base, and it requires an extensive process to make useful in a sword. Some master smiths pattern weld different steel types to predominantly make up specific portions of the sword (the sanmai, taco, reverse taco, etc). This let them keep the metal they knew would harden better towards the edge and the metal that would take a better beating, but not harden as well, to the flats and spine depending on the technique. This can get very elaborate with 7 different components being welded together. While an artifact of not being able to get good homogenous steel to work with, the technique still produced some impressive results. The quality of the sword then (and now) depended on the smith's ability to understand the nature of the steel and maximizing the desired characteristics. There is some argument that the Kozuka knives are forged with the same steel as the sword they are paired with and are used as a way to test heat treat on a small scale prior to that step on the main blade. With more modern steels, we can cheat this a bit by manipulating the types and sizes of different carbides, allowing for a higher edge retention with a higher toughness in a single steel. This makes a uniform blade without areas that could delaminate, further boosting strength. But it does make the heat treatment and tempering even more important that before. For example, Shock steel has been popular for swords for a bit (S5 and S7) due to their impact toughness and ability to survive abuse without bending (see the Matt Jensen videos about how much punishment these can take). Unfortunately, the shock steels don't harden super well (which is part of their toughness) so their edges don't last as long. S7 rates about 120 on a Charpy test while CPM3V rates about 85. For later reference, basic L6 rates about 40 while bainite (which is admittedly hard for me to find a solid value for) ends up in the same 85 range as the CPM3V. These are approximations since different hardnesses and heat treats affect it, but it gives an idea of the trade offs we are looking at for a hardened edge and a tough spine. Powder metallurgy allows you to abuse some of the characteristics of the structure of the metal, namely making smaller carbides part of the structure than would normally grow if you tried to make the same alloy composition without it. This is partly what allows the CPM 3V/M4 to retain the edge longer while remaining tough. The carbides contribute to a harder edge and better retention, but stay small due to the powder metallurgy rather than growing and making more weak points. It also apparently helps with the sharpening as the fine grain size makes the edge easier to refine, which can be a big issue with the harder Rockwell steels like the edge of a katana. Bainite is an unusual micro structure to the iron that you can get with a very careful heat treat. Its main advantage is the toughness it gets from overlapping "plate" crystals over the more "lozenge" shapes normally seen. The plates sit on one another, making it more difficult to displace them due to the increased area of contact. Much like how a pair of phonebooks with the pages overlapped take a truly absurd amount of force to pull apart even though there is no actual adhesive holding them together. Differentially hardening the L6 lets you get the benefit of the Bainite for the spine and the extra hardness of the edge. The impact toughness of Bainite approaches the same levels of the CPM 3V, but it requires particular steel compositions to form. These potential Bainite steels generally don't harden as well as others, though L6 does still have a peak hardness in the 61-63 range, above that of CPM 3V's 58-60 optimum, which is partly why it works so well for this arrangement. This also gets into the tricky part of testing though as hardness and carbides play their role, but standardizing your test for it is really difficult. Comparing raw numbers here gets a bit limited unfortunately, but I would give the edge retention advantage to CPM 3V overall. But, swords don't need to be as sharp as razors to cut. A common refrain from LK Chen is "cutting sharp" which is an edge that bites and cuts, but doesn't develop rolls and deformation. Even "dull" blades you can run a finger down gently with a good geometry can cut a tatami mat. Knives don't usually have these more complex geometries as easy re-sharpening is part of the goal for a knife. This is partly why powder metallurgy steels with their fine carbides were developed as knife steels. Ease of sharpening can as important as edge retention. Edges with niku (or apple seeding) tend to also last longer with more metal behind the edge to support it, which is the default for traditional katana. Very fine secondary bevels ("microbevel") have a similar effect, keeping a bit more metal behind the edge to support it. Though it is notable that the edge retention on L6, even hardened, is still not as good compared to even 1095 in the same geometry so will generally be assumed to fall behind CPM 3V if just looking at the effort to cut. But, as it can hit a harder Rockwell, the L6 has a slight edge in maintaining the edge's overall structure since it won't deform as easily which makes up a bit for the raw edge retention. In terms of raw properties, I would say that CPM 3V comes close to the L6 Bainite if both are properly heat treated. Both are quite shock tough and can be sharpened to a fine edge and hold it. Motohara is a company prideful in their workmanship so I would trust their heat treats on the CPM 3V, and Howard Clark is an ABS Master Smith who specialized in this particular heat treatment for the L6. The rest is honestly up to taste and investment. Both will make you the geometry you want (with a couple exceptions) as well which, as stated, has allot more influence on the effectiveness of a sword as a cutter. Interestingly, the newest hotness in the knife world is actually CPM MagnaCut which combines less toughness than 3V, though still quite high and comparable at the hardnesses we would want for a blade, with a better hardenability, edge retention, and a truly impressive corrosion resistance. The latter comes from further metallurgical magic of keeping chromium in solution in that narrow range of "just enough" to make it corrosion resistant without forming chromium carbides which end up weakening the structure of the steel significantly by vacuuming up that necessary carbon to harden (part of the reason you see the adage that stainless steels are useless as swords). I am curious how it would function at a sword length. :-) You are right in most things but forget one thing, Motohara has a totally industrial process to make blades including quenching with oil (that is changed regularly) and all the heat treatment is controlled with state of the art machines, gauges, etc… They don’t create art, but the best cutting tools. My 3V even cuts deer horn without a single scratch, try to do that with a HC bainite L6, it won’t end well… Other thing I agree, to cut tatami, any cheap sword will do, tatami with oak center….well we all know the answer to that one. I only post this because I don’t like mysticism or sacred cows. Even Masamune would make better swords if he had our technology.
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Post by toddstratton1 on Dec 30, 2023 6:33:38 GMT
The truth is that the $500 Chinese blades we get of Chinese "tamahagane" are actually top quality blades. It's actually pretty amazing we can get such a good blade so cheap. I don't know any other time period in history that such a good blade was comparatively so cheap. I've never seen a Korean one in the flesh, but I don't think anything forged in Korea is of any superior quality. Outside of Japan, and unless they are made of real tamahagane or something else that's special (L6), or used straw ash for welding, you probably can't get any better blades So it's really not an insult to say the Korean blades are likely equivalent to the $500 Chinese blades. This is actually the high water mark from most blades smithed in the world. I wouldn't pay any more for one though, because you're not getting anything better in the steel. Paying more for L6, straw ash welding, or real tamahagane makes sense to me, but not for any other metal or forging type. That's fair I get your point then, but there is still the aspect of quality control and how much personal care and attention each blade gets, for each part of the process in Korea as far as I know it, there is one bladesmith who is working on all of them. And that would consist of handling the entire process start to finish. Whereas those big facilities in China are churning out God knows how many a month in comparison and in a much more a month in a much less hands on kind of way. I also agree modern made mono steels and etc are far higher quality on average than any sword in history. Due to modern steel and technology being so superior. Although with tamahagene steel its not that it's a very delicate sword once made traditionally, rather there are many points of failure that can happen in the process of creation and so it requires a master smith to create something that doesn't have any of those weak points present which could cause failures. And of course much more laborious process to smith each blade that way. I think there is more done with each blade in that although it might not be a vastly different or superior steel, you are getting more individual care to your sword and a higher quality of process to each step of the smithing due to how it is made in comparison. Motohara swords also have a lifetime garuntee if used as appropriately for their intended purpose. As in as long as you don't abuse the sword with something it's not meant for and etc. That to me makes it super worth it, and I find them higher quality and more consistent quality then similar priced starting price katana like Citadel and etc which in those reviews for the price they were, seemed to have quite a few flaws still. Again though nothing against the Chinese mono steel swords I think it's great we can get such good quality blades for an awesome price. And they will certainly do the job as needed for any task we need if it was designed for that purpose. A 3k sword doesn't perform 10x better then a 500 dollar sword just because it cost more like you mentioned. I see it like the 2011s in the fire arm industry. Although starting prices are different, you can pay like 2k for a Staccato and it will be a super high performance gun and do all you need reliably. However if you get a 7k+ Atlas or Infinity 2011 it will have a lot nicer fit and finish and often be hand fitted at that so that things feel even smoother and tighter in function and etc. The trigger and other bits might be a bit better. But there is a level of diminishing returns on performance after a certain threshold. And the Atlas or Infinity won't perform 3 times better than the staccato despite being 3 times the price. But it will absolutely be much more noticable in comparison to something like a glock. Because the Staccato already meets close to that top level of performance a hand gun can already achieve, and there isn't dramatically higher you can hit above that bench mark.
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