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Post by mikesd on Oct 17, 2023 2:57:09 GMT
I received a Dragon King sword today. Supposedly made by CAS Hanwei. BUT the hamon line has some scratches and you can see the base metal color where it looks like the hamon was scratched off. Its my understanding a real hamon line from tempering cannot be scratched off. Otherwise you couldn't polish swords. It was advertised as having heat tempered hamon line. Fake hamon? Or an I misunderstanding something. Would this be the Dragon King brand lying or the Hanwei manufacturer.
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Post by calironin on Oct 17, 2023 3:11:10 GMT
I also have a Dragon King katana and the hamon also appears to have rubbed off from where the sword rubs against the saya as you unsheath it. The hamon on my sword is definitely real, but it's quite "frosty", so I assume that Dragon King etched it to enhance it. I think this is pretty common for some vendors to do, otherwise the hamon will be more subtle.
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Post by mikesd on Oct 17, 2023 3:53:35 GMT
I also have a Dragon King katana and the hamon also appears to have rubbed off from where the sword rubs against the saya as you unsheath it. The hamon on my sword is definitely real, but it's quite "frosty", so I assume that Dragon King etched it to enhance it. I think this is pretty common for some vendors to do, otherwise the hamon will be more subtle. Good to know but from what I have read is that a real heat differential cooled hamon is baked into the metal and no amount of rubbing should rub it off. If it could be rubbed off, you wouldn't be able to polish swords. Now I realize these are inexpensive swords but real differential cooled swords creates the hamon. and should be permanent. So what I am now assuming is the heat treatment may have been done, but NOT with differential heat treatment. The hamon would then be faked with etching. By my way of thinking the hamon is either created by differential cooling with clay, or its faked. Am I wrong on this? I do have a lot to learn but I'd rather have heat treatment without hamon, than a faked hamon that can rub off. I do like the sword otherwise.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Oct 17, 2023 4:00:51 GMT
I don't own a Dragon King kat but I have Hanweis with etch enhanced hamons which means a whiter etched area that doesn't follow the real hamon line exactly. The real hamon line is still visible, but less prominent. The etching can be removed. The picture isn't good enough for me to see, if it's this thing. I don't assume Hanwei or Dragon King lie, they have a reputation to lose.
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Post by mikesd on Oct 17, 2023 4:10:35 GMT
I don't own a Dragon King kat but I have Hanweis with etch enhanced hamons which means a whiter etched area that doesn't follow the real hamon line exactly. The real hamon line is still visible, but less prominent. The etching can be removed. The picture isn't good enough for me to see, if it's this thing. I don't assume Hanwei or Dragon King lie, they have a reputation to lose. More good info for my education. So if I'm understanding this, if I was so disposed, I could polish off the etching and the real hamon should still be visible, right? I don't plan to do that but just trying to understand. I have seen the term "etching enhancement". I'll take a better image with a real camera, instead of my fake phone camera. 😀
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Oct 17, 2023 4:15:11 GMT
Yes, I did this with my Tori because I hate those etching enhancement look. Of course the real hamon then isn't very prominent, you'd need a professional polish for a better looking hamon.
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Post by mikesd on Oct 17, 2023 4:45:38 GMT
I don't own a Dragon King kat but I have Hanweis with etch enhanced hamons which means a whiter etched area that doesn't follow the real hamon line exactly. The real hamon line is still visible, but less prominent. The etching can be removed. The picture isn't good enough for me to see, if it's this thing. I don't assume Hanwei or Dragon King lie, they have a reputation to lose. More pics... Ill try to get even better pics tomorrow. I tried to focus on the homon and scratches, and the blade was tilted so the top of sword is out of focus. Also, It's dark now and I don't have lighting setup. But tomorrow I'll use my macro lens and look for possible original hamon Attachments:
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Oct 17, 2023 5:56:13 GMT
Sorry, I can't tell anything definitive from the pictures but it looks different from what I had.
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Post by mikesd on Oct 17, 2023 6:07:44 GMT
I have taken a close look and I can see, along the edge of what is the hamon, and can see a lighter color. I wonder if that is the unenhanced hamon. It has a cloudy look to it.
Tomorrow I will take better photos, when I have.more light.
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Post by takitam on Oct 17, 2023 9:14:01 GMT
It's as Andi said regarding etching. You cannot make a proper judgement in this case based on these scratches only.
You would have to polish the whole sword, ideally to a finer grit, to see if there is a real hamon.
You would then see that the steel below the hamon line reflects light differently than above the line.
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Post by crazyjons on Oct 17, 2023 11:42:20 GMT
It can't be scratched off but it can be obscured.
If you just took buffing compound and a wheel the whole thing would look like a mirror and the hamon would disappear.
Part of the art of a togoshi is to use special stones to emphasize the hamon, I think the final stones have a high acid content to help that.
Jon
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Post by takitam on Oct 17, 2023 21:06:40 GMT
If you are feeling adventurous and want to do something 'for science' : One idea would be to polish just the kissaki area. It will tell you what you need to know and you will practice an important skill, while keeping most of the sword in factory shape. Your sword already has scratches, so there is a bit less to worry about. Put a tape around the kissaki to mark the area clearly and get to work My personal opinion is that a knife or a sword only becomes truly yours once you sharpen it or do some work on it. But it might be different for you or collectors of Japanese swords in general afaik.
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Oct 17, 2023 23:41:49 GMT
The polish can be damaged and worn to the point a real Hamon is obscured. Typical in Japanese swords in fair to poor condition Hamon is usually the first thing uchiko brings out
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Post by mikesd on Oct 18, 2023 1:51:42 GMT
If you are feeling adventurous and want to do something 'for science' : One idea would be to polish just the kissaki area. It will tell you what you need to know and you will practice an important skill, while keeping most of the sword in factory shape. Your sword already has scratches, so there is a bit less to worry about. Put a tape around the kissaki to mark the area clearly and get to work My personal opinion is that a knife or a sword only becomes truly yours once you sharpen it or do some work on it. But it might be different for you or collectors of Japanese swords in general afaik. Actually I was thinking about doing just that.
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Post by larason2 on Oct 18, 2023 17:25:00 GMT
I've just been learning about this myself. Technically, the hamon is just the outline of the tempered zone, or tempering line, of a differentially hardened sword. The white "frosted" effect that is often associated with water quenched differentialy hardened swords is a very shallow effect, that is easy to polish or scratch off. In traditional Japanese polishing, this effect is intentionally polished off during the foundation polishing process, then reintroduced to the areas where you would expect it to be by the hazuya finger stones and/or the nugui that are/is part of the finish polishing. If you look at "The Art of Japanese Sword Polishing" by Takaiwa et al., in the diagram where they go through all the foundation stones, basically none of them have the frosted effect, but many of them do have the temper line. You would expect the frosted effect to magically appear when foundation polishing, but this never happens (I know now from extensive experience with many different blades!). If it's present at the start, it dissappears when polishing, and doesn't reappear during foundation polishing. In reality, you never see the frosted effect again until you get to the nugui/hazuya stage. For oil quenched blades, this effect is often added using an acidic treatment. As would be expected, oil produces basically none of this effect. If you go through the traditional polishing process with an oil quenched blade, you can always add the frosted effect using finger stones. Because of this, basically all Chinese blades appear to be oil quenched, and some sort of frosted effect added afterwards. If you don't believe me, try traditionally polishing your "water quenched" blade. The frosting will immediately disappear, and never come back.
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Post by mikesd on Oct 19, 2023 1:32:00 GMT
If you are feeling adventurous and want to do something 'for science' I received the last of my swords. The first one is the one that seems like a fake hamon). ok maybe enhanced, not actually fake. The 2nd one actually looks better. It's hamon is what I eould expect. Here's the issue for me. If I look at the blade from an angle, the first on has a hamon area that is always darker than the rest of the blade. Maybe thats what enhancing does. But If I do the same to the 2nd sword, the color is mostly lighter. At some angles it might look darker. It changes with angle and doesn't look like something that can be rubbed off. First sword (Hanwei, Dragon King) www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01KD16I1K?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_image2nd sword (Lee swords) www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B09XCWQBG6?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_imageThe Hanwei also rattles in the Saya, and will fall out if handle pointed down. The Lee sword is great fit to Saya, and will not fall out if tipped and shaken. Slight thumb push will allow drawing. But it is mostly the hamon on the first that concerns me. The Lee was half the cost of the Dragon King. I'm posting links so everyone can see the descriptions.
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