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Post by haon on Oct 2, 2023 7:44:01 GMT
Hey, so , I've recently made myself an iron tsuba (as well as fuchi and kabutogane) with inlays out of sterling silver and blackened the whole thing using the tutorial by Cottontail Customs. All worked out really well, and the triba took a nice deep black colour. However, after leaving it on the sword for a few days it is covered in a fine layer of brown rust, and looks more like a medium dark brown than black. Any help appreciated, as this one took me a lot of time to make. Also, the fuchi and kabutogane simply became a bit lighter in colour, but no hints of rust, just more of a dark grey, which I'm fine with. All pieces dried over 24 hours in the sun and we're covered with renaissance wax afterwards.
Best regards,
Haon
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Post by mrstabby on Oct 2, 2023 8:31:24 GMT
Either you didn't wash off all the reactive ingredients enough, you didn't clean off enough loose oxides or there wasn't enough ren wax. You did rust blue, right? It is normal for the oxide layer to grow a little after, the growth might have punched through the wax seal and let more humidity in. The blued stuff is still able to rust if not protected enough, it might just be surface rust. You might be able to clean it off with some oil (gun oil works well for this), if it has eaten holes through the black oxide though, you will have to redo the whole thing after sanding off the finish.
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Post by haon on Oct 2, 2023 10:41:59 GMT
Either you didn't wash off all the reactive ingredients enough, you didn't clean off enough loose oxides or there wasn't enough ren wax. You did rust blue, right? It is normal for the oxide layer to grow a little after, the growth might have punched through the wax seal and let more humidity in. The blued stuff is still able to rust if not protected enough, it might just be surface rust. You might be able to clean it off with some oil (gun oil works well for this), if it has eaten holes through the black oxide though, you will have to redo the whole thing after sanding off the finish. Yes, the progress was rust bluing That might be a possibility, maybe I should have used more baking soda? The tsuba was slightly shiny after covering it with the wax. I've tried to remove some of the rust with medium steel wool, but it didn't come off. The finish is still intact, though. Regarding gun oil, is ballistol fine od do you refer to something else? Also, could I just boil the thing and coat it again? At least in theory
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Post by mrstabby on Oct 2, 2023 10:57:26 GMT
Ballistol should be fine. I find it removes rust sufficiently, better than mineral oil at least. As long as there is still a plane surface without holes, it might be possible to cook it again and get a good result (I have seen people just cooking fully rusted parts to black). Worst case, it looks bad, you can take it off and redo the process from ground up. And yeah, always use a bit more baking soda than you think you need.
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Post by larason2 on Oct 2, 2023 22:30:44 GMT
It would probably be helpful to have a picture, there's different kinds of rusts, and it would be helpful to see what parts are black.
A traditional Japanese iron patina doesn't rust that quickly. I would try boiling it, polishing it with baking soda and charcoal dust and water (that's a traditional Japanese finish before patination) or oiling it thoroughly before waxing again to see if that helps. If all else fails, try repatinating it with the patina recipe on Jim Kelso's website. I understand that is a pretty authentic recipe.
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Post by haon on Oct 3, 2023 13:04:00 GMT
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Post by haon on Oct 3, 2023 13:05:10 GMT
These are both sides of the gsuba, the first photo (the backside) is more representative of the entire surface.
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Post by mrstabby on Oct 3, 2023 14:13:00 GMT
I am not an expert with the rust blueing method, most I know is theorethical, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. I do only cold blueing, since I am a lazy bugger.
Looking at this, it was either some rusting agent or not enough wax. Along the dragons hard to reach places seems to be more rust, which could still be either, depending on how much soda or wax you used, and how you applied the wax...The fresh oxide layer is very thirsty. The rusting agent would probably be mostly driven into the water when boiling, unless your boiling solution was saturated with the reagents after doing it many times. Applying the Renaissance Wax warm can be difficult, if the piece isn't hot enough to melt the wax, you only drive away the solvents in the wax and get a lackluster spread on the surface. You could end up with pockets underneath the wax.
I'd say boil it again, and smother it in wax ( a boil in fresh water should remove most of the rusting agent anyways). What seems to work well for ren wax is putting on a thick layer and then heating the piece to melt the wax into the nooks and crannies of the surface.
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pgandy
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Posts: 10,296
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Post by pgandy on Oct 3, 2023 15:19:53 GMT
Just a WAG, but I’d say that you left some residual acid and no amount of oil, wax, or whatever is going to stop the rust until that is neutralized. Baking soda, as mentioned, will be your best bet. I would increase your mix, perhaps to the point of saturation, and soak the metal, maybe using a brush such as a toothbrush. Then dry and oil.
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Post by larason2 on Oct 3, 2023 18:38:25 GMT
On most of the tsuba, it's the pits that are rusting first. So I agree, you have to get in there and neutralize the residual acid. I'd do it with charcoal and baking soda, and a horse hair brush if you have it, as that was traditional. A toothbrush would probably be ok too (extra soft). Baking soda is an abrasive, but the charcoal also gives a finer polish. The finer the polish, the more it resists corrosion.
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Post by mrstabby on Oct 3, 2023 18:53:01 GMT
Just looked up the tutorial by Cottontail Customs again, they don't use acid but salt and hydrogen peroxide, so there is no acid to quench, baking soda won't help here! It could also be the tannins in the tea, if you used black or green tea especially. Those you won't get rid off so easily. Probably best start again. And look up videos, this tutorial doesn't seem good to me to be honest. You can even see the pimples you have on their last pic.
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Post by larason2 on Oct 4, 2023 2:33:57 GMT
Tea is acidic, they need something in it to rust the iron! Anyway, I'd try Jim Kelso's recipe before trying another type of patination.
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Post by mrstabby on Oct 4, 2023 6:08:29 GMT
They dont use it this way, they use it in the cooking stage AFTER the soda treatment. Either way, that's probably the reason.
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Post by haon on Oct 4, 2023 7:47:31 GMT
Ok, thank you all very much for your answers. What I've got from this so far is that I should reboil the tsuba without the tea and then give it a treatment with oil and wax? I gave it a try using baking soda and gun oil yesterday. It looks quite good again. Regarding the pimples, it's possible that these were exaggerated by the camera,as they don't seem that extreme when handling the piece
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Post by mrstabby on Oct 4, 2023 18:06:00 GMT
Yeah, from what I know you boil it black in at least clean water, better deionized or destilled water. I haven't seen it done like they do it to be honest. Tea as a last step without any cleaning after invites rust, no matter what oil or wax you use. Though gun oil, being slightly basic, would very likely at least have neutralized acid from the tea, Ren Wax is formulated to be neutral for as long as possible, so you can basically use it on any metal (basic gun oils can eat copper over time for example) but it won't neutralize acid.
If it should begin rusting again like it did before (equal spots all over), it might not have been the acid in the tea but other ingredients, but you should be able to cook them out with clean water.
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