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Post by kami on Sept 30, 2023 16:29:20 GMT
Hello everyone, I was looking for some opinions on this sword: www.dragonsports.eu/en/51063-katana-bushido-yamato-damascus-steel.htmlI have it in my collection, and all in all I'm rather disappointed in the finish. While the blade looks genuine (as in made from damast) I highly doubt this sword is worth €800,- They claim it is forged in Longquan, but there is no certificate or anything with it. Currently not at home, but I will remove the Tsuka and see if there is a signature or something on the blade. The sword itself sits tight in the saya and there is no rattle. I am wondering though, why there is no hamon visible on the blade? The Samégawa is not very tidy finished: The Ito, what material is it made? It should be very tightly wrapped around the Tsuka. However, I wonder if this is silk, and also, the wrapping is very loose. Also, it seems damaged with loose raffles at the end of the Tsuka: The Mekugi sits partially under the (loose wrapped) Samégawa: The Sageo seems a bit damaged / folded: The Habaki is damaged: All in all, I'm a bit puzzled why a handcrafted, €800 Katana sword is lacking a tight and neat finish. Looking for some thoughts on this Many thanks in advance for your reflections! Edit:I decided to take the katana apart, this is what I found:
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Post by eastman on Sept 30, 2023 17:54:03 GMT
there may not be a hamon on this blade if the steel was through-hardened instead of clay-covered and differentially hardened in the proper Japanese method.
The samegawa and ito wrap look terrible, especially for the price. The samegawa shouldn't have random holes in it. The ito should alternate for the diamonds and the wrap should be flatter.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Sept 30, 2023 18:51:29 GMT
👎 €800?
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Post by jester on Sept 30, 2023 19:20:06 GMT
Hello. Longquan is a place that mainly does swords. While they can surely produce some quality swords, most of them are extremely poor because they are meant for a specific market: the "I-know-nothing-about-swords-but-I-like-the-idea-of-having-one people". With this in mind, the sword you posted falls into this category. Unfortunately, this particular piece's value is nowhere near the asked price. I would say this is a $150 sword to be generous. Blade and fittings could be ok, there's a touch of samegawa on the saya (mostly to scam inexperienced buyers with the $800 tag) but every corner has been cut here. That ito actually seems like a sageo badly wrapped around the tsuka (I wonder if it is). I wouldn't bother removing the tsuka, most likely it's glued and you can damage the sword. It's salvageable tho, if you can have the maki redone with proper ito and technique. Sorry about your money. When in doubt, before buying another, ask here for hints; plenty of knowledgeable people can easily help you.
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Post by larason2 on Sept 30, 2023 21:40:32 GMT
I think most of your money went to making the box! I agree with what has been said, the tsuka was wrapped with sageo material, likely also polyester, that's why it's so bad. The "same" is plastic, often used on these from longquan, revealed by the poorly cut edges around the mekugi ana. The damascus is actually pretty nice, but it was clearly through hardened, not water or oil quenched, and they didn't bother to simulate a hamon with an acid wash (though the damascus is acid etched). The habaki is marked up because they just put a stock saya on it, which don't always fit perfectly. Also, they often fill the sword and saya with wax, which gets on the habaki. Thr brass they use for those habaki is also very soft and prone to marking and denting. They also use old or damaged material for the sageo and ito, I've had that on swords from them myself!
So all in all, it's what I would expect from Longquan these days, but I understand why you are upset! I agree this sword shouldn't have cost much more than $150 USD, but you probably paid more for the box and markup! I agree it's not a total loss, it can still be a good sword, and was clearly nicely forged, polished ok, and is probably carbon steel. Through hardened swords can still be quite strong. But I agree the tsuka needs to be rewrapped with something proper, particularly if you plan to use it!
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Post by kami on Sept 30, 2023 22:22:58 GMT
Thanks everyone! Happy to see it isn't just my imagination. Lucky that I decided to pay 4 monthly installments of €223. 😅 I also ordered a new bo of waxwood and a bag for my jo, bo and sword, so all in all I paid around €150 for the sword. The blade seems the only *kinda* nice thing about it (the hada looks gorgeous imo), so it's a nice curiosity to add to the collection. I directly contacted the merchant when the sword arrived (15 days ago), they haven't responded yet. I contacted the bank and they advised me to not pay the rest of the installments, since this clearly a swindle. So luckily no loss there. Another good thing coming from this is me finding this forum! I've been reading up a lot on Japanese swords the past weeks, so have a more clear view of what to look for in a good sword. Thanks again for your reflections all, really useful! P.S., Back in 2007 I bought a katana from a smith in Kai Feng (Millennium City Park, China), and this one ticks a few of the boxes (afaik), like a really tight ito, but has a loose seppa / habaki, and falls out of the saya very easily. Still, this new experience made me more curious to the quality of that blade. When I get home, I will post with photo's, maybe I can find a signature or something on the tang. I don't suppose it's great quality either (paid around 1500 yuan for it, ca. €150), but it seems better than this damast one 😁 sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/72327/thoughts-on-sword And don't worry, I'm not even contemplating to practise Tameshigiri with these swords. Still in the market for a good one, but the more I read and watch the reviews, the more I'm hesitant to buy one. Definitely not ordering the next one online, but at a vendor where I can actually see the sword myself. Thanks again!!
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Sept 30, 2023 23:12:15 GMT
P.S., Back in 2007 I bought a katana from a smith in Kai Feng (Millennium City Park, China), and this one ticks a few of the boxes (afaik), like a really tight ito, but has a loose seppa / habaki, and falls out of the saya very easily. That is correctable. Shimming is the word. As for the saya fit, shimming will work of course. But FYI if you live in an area where there is a definite climate change, such as wet and dry seasons, you may experience some difficulty with the saya changing size. One approach is to grasp the sword by the tsuka with the right hand adjacent to the tsuka. Then put the thumb over the tsuba with the thumb pad resting on the saya, supporting it. This is a recognized method of carry.
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Post by blairbob on Oct 1, 2023 9:08:30 GMT
I would have to scratch the rayskin to be sure, but it might be real. Some of the imitation rayskin is what I call "spongey" though I've seen some that look more like a hard plastic. Definitely paid too much. The knots with the ito look too big as well, which I think is because of how thick the ito is. The ito almost looks like it's the same material a nice sageo would be rather than tsukamaki-ito. i.ebayimg.com/images/g/xRwAAOSwVDdfX8yb/s-l1200.webpYour habaki may be scratched/scuffed a bit but looks like cosmetic damage at best. Might actually be caused due to the inside of the saya. sageo looks a bit damaged. i always untie mine for training and never end up tying it back up. shouldn't happen for 800 euros but can easily be replaced. Really, the seller probably jacked up the price to make a lot on margin besides their cost, VAT, and shipping.
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Oct 1, 2023 9:58:04 GMT
dragonsports.eu is a weird site. They have really cheap swords mixed in with really quality ones. All of them are chinese made (all I have looked at). I came upon the site looking for an already imported LK Chen sword, but looking through their catalogue I became suspicious. To me it looked like they use the LK Chen swords to mark up some of the cheapo longquans, some of the 800+€ swords look like 90s movie props. I beleived I heard something whisper in my ear "It's a trap!" Looking at their "authentic" bows did give me bad vibes as well...
Looking for reviews it feels like most 5 stars are bought and the 1star say they had problems with getting the items, getting back the money or bad quality and bad customer service.
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Post by kami on Oct 2, 2023 20:22:28 GMT
Yep, again, luckily I didn't pay it in full On that topic, I got a response. It's amazing. They claim that the ito is of 'superior quality because it is thicker', and hence the large and loose knots.... go figure. They offered a €50 refund, only for the bad braiding... I offered to return the sword, but only after they refunded me completely. I trust them to sell a premium product, now they can trust me that I will send it back once refunded. Anyway, let's see how this plays out.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Oct 2, 2023 21:07:31 GMT
Yep, again, luckily I didn't pay it in full ;) On that topic, I got a response. It's amazing. They claim that the ito is of 'superior quality because it is thicker', and hence the large and loose knots.... go figure. They offered a €50 refund, only for the bad braiding... I offered to return the sword, but only after they refunded me completely. I trust them to sell a premium product, now they can trust me that I will send it back once refunded. Anyway, let's see how this plays out. I hope all works out to your satisfaction.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Oct 2, 2023 21:24:14 GMT
I have doubts...
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Post by kami on Oct 5, 2023 12:36:01 GMT
I think most of your money went to making the box! I agree with what has been said, the tsuka was wrapped with sageo material, likely also polyester, that's why it's so bad. The "same" is plastic, often used on these from longquan, revealed by the poorly cut edges around the mekugi ana. The damascus is actually pretty nice, but it was clearly through hardened, not water or oil quenched, and they didn't bother to simulate a hamon with an acid wash (though the damascus is acid etched). The habaki is marked up because they just put a stock saya on it, which don't always fit perfectly. Also, they often fill the sword and saya with wax, which gets on the habaki. Thr brass they use for those habaki is also very soft and prone to marking and denting. They also use old or damaged material for the sageo and ito, I've had that on swords from them myself! So all in all, it's what I would expect from Longquan these days, but I understand why you are upset! I agree this sword shouldn't have cost much more than $150 USD, but you probably paid more for the box and markup! I agree it's not a total loss, it can still be a good sword, and was clearly nicely forged, polished ok, and is probably carbon steel. Through hardened swords can still be quite strong. But I agree the tsuka needs to be rewrapped with something proper, particularly if you plan to use it! Hi LaraSon2, I agree on the ito, it seems to be sageo, and based on the raffles, it very much looks like polyester indeed. With regards to the same, it is real. They are sheets, but not very nicely finished. And it's terribly aligned with the mekugi. The tsuba more or less does seem handmade (not sure what material it is yet), since it is so crooked... But then again, should handwork not be met with attention, therefore not making it look crooked? The blade is nice indeed, but agreed, first of it shouldn't even be made of damascus. It is TH, so no hamon idd. Overall, the sword is not worth €800 imo.
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Post by kami on Oct 5, 2023 12:57:01 GMT
Same here... Even if all the material and handwork is genuine, I'm in doubt if €800 is a fair price. Shouldn't it have a way nicer finish for that money? Also their reply regarding how the ito 'is loose because it is thicker material and therefore higher quality'... makes me believe they are not telling the truth. Their exact words: Whut? Higher quality 'rope'? 'As with any traditional katana'? My sword looks 'more spectaculair'? This is where I get suspicious....
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Post by larason2 on Oct 5, 2023 14:08:56 GMT
Your tsuba is definitely cast, but they did a pretty good job of cleaning up the casting seam. From the looks of it, I think it's brass. It's actually quite attractive. Real tsuba aren't that thick though, and they are in general much more expensive than what you paid!
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Oct 5, 2023 14:16:57 GMT
Sheesh, that's a buzzwordy text. It might just be a try to get you to settle. They might try a few times, stay strong.
For some reason I did not see the pictures last time I read the thread. The folding pattern and finish on the blade is exactly the same on a Jian I bought for 70€, it looks nice, but the fit was pretty awful. I bet they come from the same factory for a few cents/blade and they just try with the 800€, if one out of every few people does not mind the quality (which is very likely), they make a killing.
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Post by kami on Oct 5, 2023 14:29:30 GMT
Your tsuba is definitely cast, but they did a pretty good job of cleaning up the casting seam. From the looks of it, I think it's brass. It's actually quite attractive. Real tsuba aren't that thick though, and they are in general much more expensive than what you paid! Agreed, thanks for your insights!
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Post by kami on Oct 5, 2023 14:32:30 GMT
Sheesh, that's a buzzwordy text. It might just be a try to get you to settle. They might try a few times, stay strong.
For some reason I did not see the pictures last time I read the thread. The folding pattern and finish on the blade is exactly the same on a Jian I bought for 70€, it looks nice, but the fit was pretty awful. I bet they come from the same factory for a few cents/blade and they just try with the 800€, if one out of every few people does not mind the quality (which is very likely), they make a killing.
Last time I hadn't discovered the attachments feature yet I posted some inline URLs to my pics, but replaced em recently using the attachments feature. Indeed, imo they already admitted to the fraud with that email of theirs, so I wonder if they are gonna push for a return on their terms, or if they decide the €680 i still 'owe' them is worth it to keep the lid on this. The future will tell.
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Oct 5, 2023 15:07:36 GMT
Sheesh, that's a buzzwordy text. It might just be a try to get you to settle. They might try a few times, stay strong.
For some reason I did not see the pictures last time I read the thread. The folding pattern and finish on the blade is exactly the same on a Jian I bought for 70€, it looks nice, but the fit was pretty awful. I bet they come from the same factory for a few cents/blade and they just try with the 800€, if one out of every few people does not mind the quality (which is very likely), they make a killing.
Last time I hadn't discover the attachments feature yet I posted some inline URLs to my pics, but replaced em recently using the attachments feature. Indeed, imo they already admitted to the fraud with that email of theirs, so I wonder if they are gonna push for a return on their terms, or if they decide the €680 i still 'owe' them is worth it to keep the lid on this. The future will tell. At minimum they showed their lack of any knowledge about Katana and at worst their knowledge of the scam.
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Post by jester on Oct 5, 2023 19:12:51 GMT
Fair enough. It's not like they declared DH clay tempered anyway.
Those are not handmade "ropes". Those are low quality sageo-like synthetics, which by nature can't behave like ito due to their thickness and material. Of course the end knot is terrible. It can't be any different as they are using the wrong material.
This is a gianormous lie. The rope in their pic, although equally low quality, at least is thin and thus serviceable. A thicker rope just won't do. They could have used a premium Japanese silk sageo handmade by Sandra (about $600) and it would still look like crap because it's wrong. Too thick. The sword won't look more spectacular, it would just look WRONG.
NO katana, traditional or fake, has a sageo wrapped on the tsuka. None. And that rope is not high quality. it's $5 on ebay for 10 meters.
No thanks.
No thanks. Too much hassle and waste of money to return and exchange for else (which will surely be equally bad). Either they keep the first payment and you don't pay the remaining three and keep this thing, or they pay for a return label and give you the money back.
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