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Post by fayebarca on Sept 27, 2023 18:54:18 GMT
Hello all,
I’ve observed that stainless steel is being used in the hilt furniture on some swords, mainly those leaning towards the budget end of the spectrum.
Now, I don’t see anything immediately wrong with this. In fact, it even seems like a good idea. I understand that stainless is unsuitable for blades because it cannot withstand the stresses that come about when drawn out as long as thin as swords are.
However, such stresses are not experienced by hilt furniture — so stainless steel’s weaknesses are less of a factor there. Hilt furniture made of stainless steel as opposed to mild steel also receives the benefit of corrosion resistance — after all, my hilts rust more often than my blades ever do by virtue of where my hands are.
Given that it avoids the weakness and gains that benefit, it makes me wonder why stainless isn’t used for more hilts on the higher end of the spectrum. Maybe the metallurgists here could advise..
One thing I’ve heard here and there is that stainless steel is more bothersome to machine than mild steel as it apparently gums up tooling more easily. This, I don’t think is sufficient, as, if this were the whole explanation, we’d see more stainless hilts on higher-end pieces and fewer on the budget end.
Another possible angle is that the brittleness of stainless steel really does factor as a problem when it comes to crossguards. I’m not so sure about, however, whether it’s really to a degree that does take it off the table for hilt furniture.
The last, and I think, most plausible possibility is appearance. Maybe it’s the case that stainless steel has a distinct look to it such that it can’t be finished to look like the nice mild steel fittings the we’re familiar with. The new LK Chen rapiers, one of which I own, use stainless hilts which have a dull grey finish. I thought it was an unconventional choice to go with that, but maybe the choice was deliberate. Most other stainless steel hilts I’ve seen are brought to a mirror polish. Maybe LK Chen found that they had to choose between one or the other?
Would love to hear your thoughts. I’m certain someone here knows something I don’t.
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Sept 27, 2023 19:13:44 GMT
To my knowledge stainless is harder to work with and costs more, so it's cost and labour saving. When you have done carbon steel for decades, you would need to make some changes, maybe new machines, new techniques certainly.
The stainless steel for the fittings wouldn't be really brittle since it wouldn't be hardened to "blade" hardness.
Colour can be the steel or just the finish. I think in LK Chens case it is the alloy, I have done some modding on my hilt and it just will not take another finish than the one it came with. Though it might just take more effort to get a mirror, maybe because of the specific steel they use, some are harder to polish.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Sept 27, 2023 19:51:02 GMT
I can’t say much in the way of a technical approach such as machining, brittleness, nor durability. I have one sword that I suspect is with a ss hilt, though that was not mentioned in the ad. So far as blades made of ss, with the exception of two types that are expensive it is the flexing that ss objects to. As far as hilt use the only one I have is by Weapons Edge and I only suspect it to be ss. I cannot vouch for it withstanding stresses of combat as that sword is a sharpy so I don’t spar with it. I don’t really object to the appearance, it’s shinier and smoother than the blade and I’ve had no rust issues here in the rainy tropics with it. In fact, it is one of my favourite swords. I would object to the ss being on, say a medieval sword as well as some others, from an aesthetics standpoint judging from the Weapons Edge sword. Perhaps it is possible to use a type of ss and polishing that doesn’t set it far apart from the blade.
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Sept 27, 2023 20:14:13 GMT
I would object to the ss being on, say a medieval sword as well as some others, from an aesthetics standpoint judging from the Weapons Edge sword. This is probably a factor as well, people want "the real thing", and medieval swords just didn't have any stainless parts. I have seen the stainless stuff very seldom on reproductions, except with LK Chen. My United Cutlery Dagger also has stainless guard and pommel, and they don't seem as grey as the LK Chen, so it might be just alloy choice here.
I personally like the stainless fittings, less to worry about when you use it. Especially the windlass fittings rust very easily for me.
On cheaper swords, like Windlass it's cost reduction and not wanting to upgrade tooling (which also would up the cost).
On more expensive swords it's probably more for authenticity.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Sept 27, 2023 20:15:49 GMT
I don't care.
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Post by eastman on Sept 27, 2023 23:20:51 GMT
I believe the reviews on Sterling Armory swords stated the furniture was stainless steel. I think they qualify as "high end".
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Sept 28, 2023 13:43:06 GMT
2 things stand out in your question. First, stainless and mild steel can be made to look near identical, though this depends on the particular steels involved on how close you can get. I have no idea where you found this 'it can’t be finished to look like the nice mild steel fittings the we’re familiar with' idea. IMO, using the identical steels, you can have some variation in finishes.
Second - stainless is stronger than mild steel in many respects, and you can make a lighter stainless hilt than mild steel for protection. As an example, using identical looking hilts, one mild, one stainless, the stainless one is still usable years later, when the mild steel one became unusable after a month or two.
So you 'can' get it to look right, but it really depends on how much time and effort you want to put into it. If you find a manufacturer that does this, they charge more for their time.
Just my .02
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Post by blackjackjolly on Sept 28, 2023 15:41:59 GMT
I've been thinking about this myself, and I generally prefer stainless furniture just because it's one less thing to maintain. The only exception was on a sword I was trying to give an antique patina, because stainless steel takes more powerful chemicals than I like to keep under the sink in order to, well, stain.
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Sept 28, 2023 17:52:18 GMT
IMO, had stainless been around, or common as it is today, I'd imagine everything but the blade would be stainless. Just for wear and durability
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Post by alientude on Sept 28, 2023 17:54:18 GMT
I believe the reviews on Sterling Armory swords stated the furniture was stainless steel. I think they qualify as "high end".
Confirmed. Chris Fields (primary swordsmith of Sterling Armory) uses stainless for his steel hilt furniture. It does have a specific look to it that not everybody likes (at least the way he finishes it).
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Sept 28, 2023 18:32:11 GMT
Just scrutinized my ss hilted sword. The hilt is a degree or two shinier than the carbon steel blade. I believe this is largely due to a better polish. The metals have a different feel. Again, this could be a result to the polish. There are polishing marks running parallel with the blade and none on the hilt. However, differences to some extent could be an aging result. I have no regrets with the ss hilt and as I said it’s one of my favourites.
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Greg E
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Post by Greg E on Sept 28, 2023 22:12:00 GMT
Would Stainless furniture be harder to customize in the form of patina, color, weathering? Harder to engrave or acid etch? I am not sure about these, just wondering.
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Post by fayebarca on Sept 29, 2023 0:42:22 GMT
I have no idea where you found this 'it can’t be finished to look like the nice mild steel fittings the we’re familiar with' idea. IMO, using the identical steels, you can have some variation in finishes. Mainly just spitballing out of personal experience as a collector -- the pieces I own that I know to have stainless steel furniture are either a dull grey like the LK Chen, or a somewhat unsightly mirror polish in the case of a Cold Steel 1.5-hand. Good to know that it's the case that stainless can be finished to look just like mild. Probably would be tougher to blue/etch it, though. Would be cool to see more of it in the future. Really take advantage of the perk we have with modern reproductions, being that we have access to better materials for the job.
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Sept 29, 2023 6:46:26 GMT
Would Stainless furniture be harder to customize in the form of patina, color, weathering? Harder to engrave or acid etch? I am not sure about these, just wondering. Blueing stainless for the normal person isn't vaiable in my opinion (unless you have enough money to spend on materials). You need to hot blue it useing some really nasty chemicals. Engraving is possible, the stainless does gum up the tools quickly, so you need to take more care, but it isn't very difficult. Acid etching is pretty possible, no special tools needed, but safety is key when handling acids, always use safety gear and use a well ventillated room, best a garage with open doors.
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Sept 29, 2023 13:50:34 GMT
And you can 'heat blue' it as well....
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Sept 29, 2023 13:57:29 GMT
And you can 'heat blue' it as well.... Something that I was wondering about heat blueing. Does this not change the temper/heat treat of the item?
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Alan Schiff
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Post by Alan Schiff on Oct 2, 2023 20:18:06 GMT
I believe there are a few things going on regarding the use of mild vs stainless in hilt components.
I think the first is that stainless is harder to work than mild. For forging, it requires higher heat and is also just plain more resistant to shaping. You tend to see stainless more on production swords where the company casts their hilt components, since in this case there is much less hand-work to do. That's generally less feasible in a smaller shop making fewer identical or similar pieces. I personally forge/grind my components by hand, and don't have the equipment to cast steel of any type.
Second, stainless is much more expensive than mild steel, at least in the US. That extra cost can be passed on to the customer, but there can be a fine line between "reasonable" and "too expensive."
Third, and probably least important, is the historical accuracy of the material. Mild steel looks and feels different from stainless, and is closer to the plain iron that was most likely used in period. That's probably not a factor most of the time, but there are people who care about such things.
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Post by durinnmcfurren on Oct 7, 2023 2:10:24 GMT
2 things stand out in your question. First, stainless and mild steel can be made to look near identical, though this depends on the particular steels involved on how close you can get. I have no idea where you found this 'it can’t be finished to look like the nice mild steel fittings the we’re familiar with' idea. IMO, using the identical steels, you can have some variation in finishes. Second - stainless is stronger than mild steel in many respects, and you can make a lighter stainless hilt than mild steel for protection. As an example, using identical looking hilts, one mild, one stainless, the stainless one is still usable years later, when the mild steel one became unusable after a month or two. So you 'can' get it to look right, but it really depends on how much time and effort you want to put into it. If you find a manufacturer that does this, they charge more for their time. Just my .02 How did the mild steel hilt become unusuable after a couple months though?
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