steveboy
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Measure twice, cut once.
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Post by steveboy on Sept 16, 2023 2:42:28 GMT
(No, I don't want to put shortening on a saya.)
A friend gave me his iaito and I just love it -- beautifully made, wonderful to handle. But it's about an inch too long for me to draw comfortably, and I just know that sooner or later I'm gonna crack the saya (if I don't trap the blade and bend it), and I would really hate that.
The easiest fix would be to simply lop off an inch of the saya at the koiguchi. There's no horn; it's wood all the way up. The saya is long and definitely has the inch to spare at the bottom end. It'd put the kurigata closer to the koiguchi than I'm used to, but I don't think that's a big deal.
Are higher-end iaito generally made for an exact blade-to-saya fit, or is it reasonable to expect some wiggle room? I'm hoping to draw on the experience of members more familiar with the insides of a saya than I am. I certainly don't want to turn this wonderful sword into a decoration.
Thanks in advance!
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Post by larason2 on Sept 16, 2023 14:30:39 GMT
Most chinese made swords are put in one size fits all sayas, and blade rattle is expected. To fix this, you'd need a custom made saya for the blade, but that's pricey. I guess you could cut an inch off, but I think the problem is the sword is too long for you! You also don't want to be jamming the tip into the wood at the end, which becomes a risk if the saya becomes too short. If you cut it short, you run the risk that the sword doesn't go in and out smoothly anymore because of the change in geometry. Remember the saya moves back on the obi when you draw, no matter what the saya and sword length are, you should be able to draw them smoothly with the right technique.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Sept 16, 2023 14:40:47 GMT
I have no first-hand knowledge of such. But a reminder to measure the ID your saya and not to work with the OD. And also, to leave some room for expansion/contraction. I just checked my iaito and for the first time in months I needed thumb pressure to break it free. We are now in our rainy season. The saya OD is about 1¼" longer than the blade.
Larason commented while I was writing and I restricted it to the OP’s question. That said some personal thoughts. And that is the blade is possibly too long for you. I’d think twice about shortening the saya. I have corrected a rattle due to the blade slapping the side of scabbard by inserting horse hair. A trick I was told used in the past by the Japanese, but unconfirmed. I used the horse hair on a blade shorter than a iaito, and it worked. I tied a small bundle in two knots and inserted. One knot did not hold the bundle fast and the hairs began coming out individually. On my iaito and katanas I don’t consider it worth the trouble. The rattle doesn’t bother me. As the wood changes size due to the humidity causes concern. So what is an exact fit? What fits today may not in six months when rainy season is over and vise versa.
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tera
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Post by tera on Sept 16, 2023 15:57:32 GMT
Stupid question, why does saya length affect iai? I get it if the kurikata is so far from the koiguchi that you have a hard time clearing because the kurikata acts as a hard stop on the belt, but apart from moving the kurikata was is the goal of shortening the saya? Is it bumping the floor during seated forms?
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steveboy
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Measure twice, cut once.
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Post by steveboy on Sept 16, 2023 16:24:39 GMT
I have no first-hand knowledge of such. But a reminder to measure the ID your saya and not to work with the OD. And also, to leave some room for expansion/contraction. I just checked my iaito and for the first time in months I needed thumb pressure to break it free. We are now in our rainy season. The saya OD is about 1¼" longer than the blade. Larason commented while I was writing and I restricted it to the OP’s question. That said some personal thoughts. And that is the blade is possibly too long for you. I’d think twice about shortening the saya. I have corrected a rattle due to the blade slapping the side of scabbard by inserting horse hair. A trick I was told used in the past by the Japanese, but unconfirmed. I used the horse hair on a blade shorter than a iaito, and it worked. I tied a small bundle in two knots and inserted. One knot did not hold the bundle fast and the hairs began coming out individually. On my iaito and katanas I don’t consider it worth the trouble. The rattle doesn’t bother me. As the wood changes size due to the humidity causes concern. So what is an exact fit? What fits today may not in six months when rainy season is over and vise versa. I apologize if my original post didn't make it clear that, yes, the blade is about an inch too long for me. The issue is not rattling, it's having the tip clear the koiguchi cleanly before beginning the cut. It's Japanese-made, high-quality, and had to have cost a good bit. I want to use it. I don't have the experience, skills, or tools to shorten and shape the blade. The next-best option is to consider shortening the saya by an inch. The saya is several inches longer than the blade, and unless it tapers a lot or is shaped specifically to the blade (molded to its shape, in a sense), the shortening would buy the inch I need for a draw that doesn't threaten the structural integrity of the saya or the blade. So I'm tryng to find out if there is some unforeseen reason not to do this.
Thanks again!
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steveboy
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Measure twice, cut once.
Posts: 369
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Post by steveboy on Sept 16, 2023 16:26:43 GMT
Stupid question, why does saya length affect iai? I get it if the kurikata is so far from the koiguchi that you have a hard time clearing because the kurikata acts as a hard stop on the belt, but apart from moving the kurikata was is the goal of shortening the saya? Is it bumping the floor during seated forms? The sword is too long. The length at the top affects my ability to draw and be assured the tip clears the koiguchi. Shortening it by an inch will effectively act as if I had shortened the blade by an inch (which I can't do). I'm looking to see if there's a reason not to do that.
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steveboy
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Measure twice, cut once.
Posts: 369
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Post by steveboy on Sept 16, 2023 16:28:46 GMT
Most chinese made swords are put in one size fits all sayas, and blade rattle is expected. To fix this, you'd need a custom made saya for the blade, but that's pricey. I guess you could cut an inch off, but I think the problem is the sword is too long for you! You also don't want to be jamming the tip into the wood at the end, which becomes a risk if the saya becomes too short. If you cut it short, you run the risk that the sword doesn't go in and out smoothly anymore because of the change in geometry. Remember the saya moves back on the obi when you draw, no matter what the saya and sword length are, you should be able to draw them smoothly with the right technique. Thanks for your reply! There's no issue with blade rattle. The sword is Japanese-made, high quality, and, as I said, the issue is that the blade is too long to draw comfortably and be sure the tip clears the koiguchi. Shortening the top of the saya by an inch achieves the same effect as shortening the blade by an inch. I'm trying to find out if there's a reason not to do this.
Thanks!
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Sept 16, 2023 17:45:34 GMT
Thanks for your reply! There's no issue with blade rattle. The sword is Japanese-made, high quality, and, as I said, the issue is that the blade is too long to draw comfortably and be sure the tip clears the koiguchi. Shortening the top of the saya by an inch achieves the same effect as shortening the blade by an inch. I'm trying to find out if there's a reason not to do this.
Thanks!
I can think of no reason not to shorten. Be sure to go by ID and not OD. For me personally I’d rather not, and look for an after-market scabbard replacement and alter that. After all the replacement wouldn’t necessarily be its permanent home. Have you considered a pair of arm stretchers? They would solve everything.
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steveboy
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Measure twice, cut once.
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Post by steveboy on Sept 16, 2023 17:56:01 GMT
Thanks for your reply! There's no issue with blade rattle. The sword is Japanese-made, high quality, and, as I said, the issue is that the blade is too long to draw comfortably and be sure the tip clears the koiguchi. Shortening the top of the saya by an inch achieves the same effect as shortening the blade by an inch. I'm trying to find out if there's a reason not to do this.
Thanks!
I can think of no reason not to shorten. Be sure to go by ID and not OD. For me personally I’d rather not, and look for an after-market scabbard replacement and alter that. After all the replacement wouldn’t necessarily be its permanent home. Have you considered a pair of arm stretchers? They would solve everything. Arm stretchers! Why didn't I think of that? They probably have cheap ones at Harbor Freight.
So if I were to consider getting a replacement, I might as well shorten this one and see if it works. Best I can tell visually, the inner dimensions & geometry are the same an inch down. I'm just gonna paint-tape the end and cut across with a circular saw. I've shimmed it once, and I don't mind some filing & reshaping to fit as long as there's wood enough to allow it.
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Post by larason2 on Sept 16, 2023 17:57:57 GMT
You should be able to draw a long katana from your saya almost regardless of the length. I was taught left hand on the koiguchi, right hand on the katana, however, the right hand is just tips of the fingers and thumb, hand cocked back at the wrist as much as you can. Then as you draw, you pull back the koiguchi with the left, right hand forward just holding with the thumb and forefinger until the kissaki clears the saya. It should be straight forward, but if the sword is too long for your arm, your right hand can go more lateral right. After the kissaki clears, grasp more with the right hand so the tip goes up, then left hand joins the right on the tsuka. To reverse, left hand goes to koiguchi, right hand slackens except the thumb and forefinger to allow the tip to fall backward. Then let the mune fall on top of the left hand, and pull laterally right with the right hand until the kissaki falls into the koiguichi. Then slowly push the katana into the saya.
The saya should be able to move backward on your left until it's almost behind your back. If it won't move that far, experiment with other means of tying it.
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steveboy
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Measure twice, cut once.
Posts: 369
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Post by steveboy on Sept 16, 2023 18:02:07 GMT
You should be able to draw a long katana from your saya almost regardless of the length. I was taught left hand on the koiguchi, right hand on the katana, however, the right hand is just tips of the fingers and thumb, hand cocked back at the wrist as much as you can. Then as you draw, you pull back the koiguchi with the left, right hand forward just holding with the thumb and forefinger until the kissaki clears the saya. It should be straight forward, but if the sword is too long for your arm, your right hand can go more lateral right. After the kissaki clears, grasp more with the right hand so the tip goes up, then left hand joins the right on the tsuka. To reverse, left hand goes to koiguchi, right hand slackens except the thumb and forefinger to allow the tip to fall backward. Then let the mune fall on top of the left hand, and pull laterally right with the right hand until the kissaki falls into the koiguichi. Then slowly push the katana into the saya. The saya should be able to move backward on your left until it's almost behind your back. If it won't move that far, experiment with other means of tying it. I'm asking about shortening a saya, not about drawing technique, but thanks.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Sept 16, 2023 19:42:40 GMT
I know, you didn’t ask but I’ll give a freebie. When drawing rotate your body at the waist counter clockwise. It will aid in moving the saya rearwards. And may be sufficient enough to not warrant cutting your saya. For me, I use to continue the draw converting it into a one-hand cut all in one motion before adding the left hand.
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steveboy
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Measure twice, cut once.
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Post by steveboy on Sept 16, 2023 19:45:09 GMT
I know, you didn’t ask but I’ll give a freebie. When drawing rotate your body at the waist counter clockwise. It will aid in moving the saya rearwards. And may be sufficient enough to not warrant cutting you saya. For me, I use to continue the draw converting it into a one-hand cut all in one motion before adding the left hand. I appreciate it, but I'm about to test for my shodan in batto-jutsu; I'm pretty familiar with drawing basics. I'm really just looking here for advice about shortening the saya.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Sept 16, 2023 19:51:10 GMT
Good luck. I'm pulling for you.
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Post by larason2 on Sept 16, 2023 20:04:14 GMT
Haha, fair enough! Sayamaki is a difficult and complicated skill. It's not just hack off the end with a hack saw. The space in the end is there for a purpose, it protects the sword from things that would otherwise scratch it, it's better they fall in and remain there. Once it's resized, there's adjusting and shimming that needs to take place. It's nice someone gave you a good sword, but if it doesn't fit it doesn't fit. Sell it and buy one that does!
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steveboy
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Measure twice, cut once.
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Post by steveboy on Sept 16, 2023 20:30:06 GMT
Okay, so I unbent a coat hangar and pushed it down into the saya as far as it would go. I marked where it stopped and compared it to the blade. Looks like the saya becomes solid wood where the blade ends, whcih means that cutting off an inch at the koiguchi would solve nothing, since the blade can't be inserted another inch.
Answer found, no damage done. On to the next crisis.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Sept 16, 2023 21:36:57 GMT
Glad that you decided to check the ID, it saved you a lot of grief. You should be able to pick up a saya from Amazon cheap enough. It won’t be the best but should suffice for practice until something better comes along. Who knows? Maybe you'll like it. You are handy with yours hands.
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