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Post by mrstabby on Aug 30, 2023 16:22:40 GMT
To be honest the HDSC was used to cut wood, so not really a thing you would go around doing with a cane sword.
My guess is that 48HRC X46Cr14 (which should be ~ 420HC) will not behave the same as carbon steel @48hrc, though I have read the 420HC steel can be one of the toughest stainless alloys if done right, I still don't trust it really.
I have one very soft 420 knife, about as hard as a windlass sword (48-50HRC I think is Windlass' hardness for their swords, right?) and it won't keep the edge half as long as the swords when cutting cardboard.
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Post by larason2 on Aug 30, 2023 16:30:25 GMT
I haven't experienced it first hand, but my understanding is that stainless steel mall swords often break when you try to use them. I'm sure they just use standard stainless steel for them. Because I don't fancy a cut on my wrist with a sword fragment, I'm not willing to test the theory myself! I have some stainless Henckels that are ice hardened, and they are pretty tough. I have a short one that I repolished with stones, and it will tolerate quite a bit of bending. Interestingly, once you get past the top layer of steel, the steel exhibits a bit of a hamon, presumably from the heat treat/quench. We also have a really old angler's knife that was made from "surgical grade" stainless. It rusts almost as easily as carbon steel, but it's pretty tough and keeps a good edge. It could be it's just carbon steel wrongly advertised as stainless!
So I agree what exactly it is makes a difference, but it's not that easy to find a stainless blade that you'd trust with your wrist. It could be the mall blades are dangerous mostly because of bad heat treatment, or absence of tempering. I also haven't seen many ice quenched stainless blades aside from my Henckels, but according to Jim Hrisoulas it does make them more durable. If I was to get a stainless machete, I'd test it for a bit on different targets with my bogu gloves and mask before trusting it unprotected! For a lot of what I'd use a machete for I use an axe, so for me having a machete would not be a matter of urgency.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Aug 30, 2023 17:06:08 GMT
You can't compare stainless steel wall hangers with machetes or short swords which are intented to be used. I don't want to sound like I'm a fan of stainless steel but I think usable blades are possible to be made. IIRC we had a similar discussion here where a bladesmith stated that it's possible to make a real functional sword blade of softly heat treated 420. I personally prefer a machete made of carbon steel and knives too.
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Post by mrstabby on Aug 30, 2023 17:44:34 GMT
You can't compare stainless steel wall hangers with machetes or short swords which are intented to be used. I don't want to sound like I'm a fan of stainless steel but I think usable blades are possible to be made. IIRC we had a similar discussion here where a bladesmith stated that it's possible to make a real functional sword blade of softly heat treated 420. I personally prefer a machete made of carbon steel and knives too. Yes, a soft 420 can be durable enough, but it wouldn't be able to compete in anything but stainlessness with a 1045 sword. All, toughness, abrasion resistance and edge retention probably would be better on the 1045. But there is the problem: Most long knives made from stainless advertise "maximum hardness" and stuff, which is not what you would want, right? For example Parforce 25cm/10" "Sautöter" blades are advertised being 56-58HRC made from 440C and 4mm thick. Not sure if I trust this knife since it should hold up to some abuse.
For short knifes I actually prefer modern stainless steels, especially if I intend to cut food with them. I am also very prone to buying automatic knives, of which I have yet to see a modern carbon steel version.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Aug 30, 2023 19:50:45 GMT
Look, carbon steel and stainless steel are two different families of metals. Like animals of a different species, they don't even weld together properly.
Stainless has a very respectable place in the world of blades: as knives. It has proven itself to be an excellent material for bush crafting, general work duty, and EDC. It has largely replaced carbon steel for this puropose.
Carbon steels have a very respectable place in the world of blades: as swords. If stainless was suitable for this purpose, then Albion would be using it exclusively. But they don't. Nor do 99% of reputable sword makers. They all use carbon steel of some type. Likewise, if stainless machetes were useful, then every Latin American man would have one strapped to his belt, but they don't. They use carbon steel, and those guys literally live with their machetes, so they would know what was best. And it's not stainless.
Arguing stainless vs. carbon steel for a sword is a silly as my previous argument for wood vs. glass blades. They ain't the same material. Each one has its place and each needs to stay in its lane.
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Post by mrstabby on Aug 30, 2023 20:09:15 GMT
Look, carbon steel and stainless steel are two different families of metals. Like animals of a different species, they don't even weld together properly. Stainless has a very respectable place in the world of blades: as knives. It has proven itself to be an excellent material for bush crafting, general work duty, and EDC. It has largely replaced carbon steel for this puropose. Carbon steels have a very respectable place in the world of blades: as swords. If stainless was suitable for this purpose, then Albion would be using it exclusively. But they don't. Nor do 99% of reputable sword makers. They all use carbon steel of some type. Likewise, if stainless machetes were useful, then every Latin American man would have one strapped to his belt, but they don't. They use carbon steel, and those guys literally live with their machetes, so they would know what was best. And it's not stainless. Arguing stainless vs. carbon steel for a sword is a silly as my previous argument for wood vs. glass blades. They ain't the same material. Each one has its place and each needs to stay in its lane. Agreed. 100% That's why I made the thread to be honest, where do you draw the limit of normal stainless in blade length, and I said I don't want to hear about someone doing this or that, just personal "prejudice" or experience.
I am wondering why so many companies sell stainless machetes when it's better to use carbon steel in the first place. For people who use the machete going camping and never using it to schop something? Also maybe the people's distain for dirt, imperfection and rust. How many reviews I have seen on carbon steel knives lamenting "1 Star..It rusts!", I couldn't try to count. Then they buy the stainless machete and wonder why it breaks. Sorry, rant over. Even Walther made a machete in 440C, but they decided to re-release it with 1095 now.
Glass makes phenomenal scalpels though.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Aug 30, 2023 20:52:53 GMT
Obsidian is probably the absolute best cutting material for small blades.
As for the rest, why sell a stainless machete? MARKETING, BABY! The people who buy those things will never use them; they get them for a "survival" kit that they will never bother to figure out how to use. Like all the rest of the "survival" gear that's just overhyped, overpriced semprini.
It's very difficult sometimes to separate out the cosplayers from the legitimate blade users, I'll admit. And the marketing departments work overtime to convince the public that their cheap, low-quality merch is somehow the next hottest thing that everybody needs to have. Think about it: how many "super steels" have you seen come and go over the last 10 years? Only to have legitimate users come back time and time again to the lowly 10xx steels that your gramps used?
Stainless for a knife up to 8-10" max, sure. Stainless for a sword or machete? Only if it's a legitimate zombie slayer purchased from a real curio shop in an actual shopping mall (mail order don't count) that also sells dragon ash trays and incense burners.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Aug 31, 2023 2:19:11 GMT
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Post by warriorpoet on Sept 10, 2023 23:43:29 GMT
Stainless for knife length, maybe 8-12 TOPS.
Why not just get a cold steel machete? 20-30 bucks, various styles.
Check out JoeX on you tube. These things are incredibly durable, putting many high priced blades to shame.
They're made of 1055 I believe. I use a royal kukri machete around the 2 acre yard. Trimming the verge, and such.
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Post by takitam on Sept 10, 2023 23:51:15 GMT
JoeX is awesome. I recently discovered him, and although I have no need and patience to watch his (or anyone else's) full videos anymore, his compilation vid made me laugh out loud several times. I appreciate when it happens, as it seems to happens less often nowadays Thanks JoeX
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pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
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Post by pgandy on Sept 11, 2023 0:22:30 GMT
I have 3 CS machetes and find them well constructed and durable. Some hitting the 2-decade mark. I was concerned at first about the lack of a hand guard for combat but as I intend to use a shield, I now consider that of little importance.
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Post by larason2 on Sept 11, 2023 1:59:02 GMT
On the blade smith's forum there's a recent discussion about CPM Magnacut for a machete. It sounds like a good material to potentially make one out of, though one of the mods said it would probably be pretty stiff for a machete. Sure sounds tough though, and there's some interesting videos on one of the websites mentioned. So maybe that is what is behind the growing use of stainless for machetes, the availability of tougher alloys. I'm sure they're not using magnacut, but apparently there's other tough "stainless" alloys too. Since it doesn't matter how well (comparatively) a machete holds an edge, they just go for relatively cheap, tough stainless. It's probably also not that corrosion resistant (like my filet knife!). So in the grand scheme of things, if they're using that kind of stainless, it's probably ok. I'd probably still prefer a good carbon steel though! www.bladesmithsforum.com/index.php?/topic/43323-magnacut-machete/knifesteelnerds.com/2021/03/25/cpm-magnacut/
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Post by mrstabby on Sept 11, 2023 6:23:37 GMT
So maybe that is what is behind the growing use of stainless for machetes, the availability of tougher alloys. I'm sure they're not using magnacut, but apparently there's other tough "stainless" alloys too. Since it doesn't matter how well (comparatively) a machete holds an edge, they just go for relatively cheap, tough stainless. It's probably also not that corrosion resistant (like my filet knife!). So in the grand scheme of things, if they're using that kind of stainless, it's probably ok. I'd probably still prefer a good carbon steel though! www.bladesmithsforum.com/index.php?/topic/43323-magnacut-machete/knifesteelnerds.com/2021/03/25/cpm-magnacut/Can't be the reason unfortunately since most are 420, 440, 3cr13 or 7cr13 steel, none of wich are high end (yeah, 420 can work). I have been seeing magnacut, though I have read the blanks available are only small knive size and pretty costly. AEB-L does work for longer blades, as could 14C28N, both are pretty tough.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Sept 11, 2023 12:50:09 GMT
... though one of the mods said it would probably be pretty stiff for a machete. .... ....they just go for relatively cheap, tough stainless. It's probably also not that corrosion resistant... The why bother at all trying to use stainless if you get all of the problems and none of the benefits for increased cost and manufacturing difficulty? This is why, time and time again, swords, knives and machetes- after all the new and "improved" materials have their 10 minutes of fame, ALWAYS end up going back to being made from carbon steel of some type, usually a 10XX.
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Post by izzy on Nov 13, 2023 8:38:05 GMT
Most stainless are too brittle, but there is a few I would trust in longer blades, but like everything it has to be done right. Keep in mind when KnifeSteelNerds talks about "toughness" ( say 420HC vs. 1095) he is referring to ability of the edge to not deform, not exactly how much lateral stress it can take at any Rockwell hardness before it would snap, etc.
I have a Condor Outback Machete in 420 HC 20" blade, no issues so far...unless you want to talk about staining on the bead blast finish from plant matter ( tree sap weeds)...but that is purely cosmetic. I have plenty of Carbon steel Machetes, some like the Tramontina Bolo are basically my "Trusty Rusty". ( older ones were a bit thicker than current production Tramontina BTW).
Occasionally you would hear rumblings on the net of a Stainless machete just breaking, but that happens with Carbon steel machetes as well when they have poor heat treat. About six months ago I was cutting ( OK it was a "fire and stones" cut) a grey pumpkin with a well made Chinese chef knife ( 4CR13), I accidentally hit a corner of steel shelving on one of the chops, the knife made a nice gash in the corner of the steel, no real damage to the blade. I happily went to the Chinese owned store and bought more of the same ( cost me about 8 USD when converted into local currency), one sits with my camping gear at the moment.
If I had to say how much I would trust 420 HC or similar steel like 4CR13 (More Si and Mn) , or better yet 12C27 ( with more Carbon, and finer grain structure) I would say at least 20", good enough for a short sword. Of course there are better materials, but I would like to see more short swords done in these steels (with a good heat treatment/ tempering of course).
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